Religion in Fantasy: What We Love, What We Hate & The Big Questions | Mythic Mirror Ep 39

Transcript

Speaker: How many ways to write a god? How many gods can you have? And how many expletives can be born from them?

Speaker: Welcome to Mythic Mirror, the podcast for lovers of myth and fantasy who want to live rich, meaningful, fulfilling lives. And we all want to be rich and magical. I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter.

Speaker: And this is your host, Mary C. Kehoe.

Speaker: woo Take it away, Mary. All right. So first off, with that strong opening, this podcast episode is going live the day before my campaign ends for Breaking Inlands. So if you haven't bought the book yet and you want to, you can still get the signed special edition. And if you don't,

Speaker: want to sign special edition, you can sign up for my newsletter to find out when the regular edition goes for sale on books, bookstores near you.

Speaker: On books, bookstores, on books, bookstores. All right. Today we are talking about faith in fantasy, religious systems, and the like.

Speaker: So first off, let's start with Something we like and something we don't like from religion in fantasy books. Carolina, would you like to start?

Speaker: I love when you get to add in a bit of the mysticism, a bit of the whimsical, a bit of the wild card of religion of like, our you know, is this other force going to step in? Is it not?

Speaker: Is it a driving force? Is it where the authority comes from? I think it can be very helpful in a fantasy book to help create structure and mystery and intrigue as well. um What i personally do not like, and that is, I'm not trying to say it's bad. I just personally have a problem with it. It's like how people have problems with certain words or some people don't like parsley or velvet. I personally cannot stand the expletives um all through one dark mirror ah whenever they said trees. windows like

Speaker: One dark window. Yeah. Twisted mirrors. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. The sword of one dark window. Thank you. And everybody said trees. Like I just kind of.

Speaker: Now, are there books where that works? Because I agree with you. Sometimes it totally doesn't work. And sometimes it does. I think it really worked in the Sword of Kaigen, partially because in this moment, I can't even remember what they say. But the religion is woven in much like religion is woven in life, where you kind of learn about it as you go, and it's never so overt.

Speaker: And there's never this like moment where they're like, okay, now I have to teach you what all about this. So you're going to understand later when I say gods or trees.

Speaker: or I don't know why the trees just really got to me. I just thought of something and I wonder if this is part of it is because it's like when you take one word trees and put it in place of multiple expletives.

Speaker: So it's like they use it when they're angry. They use it when they're surprised. Is it the F word? Is it God? Right. Is it God or is it the F word? That is exactly it, Mary. Yeah. Those are contextually different. Again, why it didn't bother me in City of Brass when they say like create or know, because um I know exactly who they're talking to. i know exactly the feeling there.

Speaker: Oh, trees. What's cool there is you've got the two different religions. So you don't have the same characters using the same expletives. good point your turn okay what i do not like is when a character is bad simply because of their religion they have no other reason for being bad other than oh you know my god's told me so because to me there are i mean it it just feels a little two-dimensional because you have

Speaker: good and bad people in all religions on in this realm. Do you have an example? Or are we not putting down other writers? That's a good point. Sorry. we can I have an example of a good one that does it well instead of two-dimensional. So ah an example of it done well is where in the Winter Night trilogy, you have the bad the antagonist is a priest, but you see the way he uses religion to control people and you see it, he he fits it to what he needs in the moment.

Speaker: And you can see that his fatal flaw, so to speak, is his own pride and ego and not the religion itself. The religion, it's like the um the real, the evil non-human being ah uses his pride and his grand sense of self, so to speak, against him. And then he uses the religion against the people.

Speaker: m Things I like. it's it's The things I like, actually, the one I picked was very similar to yours in that I think reading about faith within a fantasy setting allows us to kind of play with belief a little bit in in a safe sandbox, in in a setting that –

Speaker: doesn't have the negative connotations or experiences we may have had with spiritual things in our own life. So you get and you can walk in someone else's belief and see how see how it feels and then leave without you know anyone shaming you. You don't get in trouble for leaving the the storm father when you stop reading a Stormlight Archive book.

Speaker: you know, you, but it, it kind of gives you a moment to expand and kind of take if you want to, something from it. Like if something really calls to you, you have the space to figure out why.

Speaker: Yeah. I mean, so much of why we read fantasy is Like you said, I feel like that's very accurate for a lot of things is just to be in a safe sandbox to figure things out and process things in a very safe way.

Speaker: The catharsis of reading fantasy and then being, getting to go through it all and then put it down and nobody's actually dead in your real life. Yeah.

Speaker: Except for, I was going to say, except for, yeah. I've cried for days after finishing some series. It feels like some people are really dead. No, that's true.

Speaker: That's true. Because to our to our subconscious, think that they are. They are real. They've been mostly dead all day. All right. What was your question? Well, just something I've been thinking about as we've discussed this topic before today.

Speaker: In a lot of fantasy, you meet the gods. They are very tangible. They're very come down to earth. They're very human. they're very fallible. And I wanted to pose this question to the podcast. People feel free to respond in the comments.

Speaker: Can you have a religion without faith? And can you have faith when you've met the gods face to face? that's Because to me, that's not really faith.

Speaker: That's just an interaction. Well, you can have faith in a person too. You know, I have faith that

Speaker: certain people will always act in certain ways. Is that faith or is that just logic where you're like, they've done this before? I think they'll probably do it again. It can be a bit of both.

Speaker: But I guess with with your question with the gods, it could be... So you can't really have the idea of, I guess, faith in their existence because you've seen them. So so it's not as if you're believing in something unseen then you have that choice to believe in it.

Speaker: But you can have faith in... their power because even even in the books what that have the gods appear, they're not always there when you call. It's not like they're they're always going to answer your prayer and and do whatever you want. They're not you know a captured djinn, so to speak. Right, but I guess like in certain contexts. so Let's say in like, and apologize, we haven't read these books on the podcast, but they are well known enough that I think people will understand.

Speaker: In the Sarah J. Moss universe, the Asteri are more powerful than other fae, but they're not gods.

Speaker: Whereas in the Serpent Wings of Night, you have like the vampires and then the gods I mean, it just seems like a fine line we're drawing between what's just a more powerful being and what's a god.

Speaker: if you are if they both If they dwell in your realm And maybe i answered my own question because in, I guess in the serpent wings of night, they don't really dwell on the earthly plane.

Speaker: I mean, I've only read the first book, so I don't know what else is revealed in the series, but I think you bring up a very good question of if you already have magical, powerful beings, is a God, a God, or, or is that just a more powerful being? And what's the difference?

Speaker: Yeah. Or does it require more humanness from the main character to have a god to... I don't know. I got lost in the sauce there. I think what I was trying to say is it to your powerful... Like, are are we just on different levels of power? Or is there just like the powerless and the powerful and the powerful of the God?

Speaker: And is the power the only element that creates the god? Yeah. Right. I think it's different in different series. I feel like in the um serpent of wings and night, so wings of serpent, wings of night.

Speaker: Thank you. That one feels more to me like a just a more powerful being. I think because that goddess that you meet is not Well, I would say more more like how you would see gods in some ancient mythology where they are they don't you know they have jealousy, they have hatred, they have yeah you know these these emotions that are considered negative um or you know untransmuted, so to speak, not divine.

Speaker: So everyone is worshiping this being as a goddess. and And I don't know. i kind of wondered in the series, do we find out, like, is she just a more powerful being that's kind of the... Because because if you because if the vampires... And this is the other thing. If you have beings who are immortal, fey, vampire, you know fill in the blank.

Speaker: If they're immortal, yeah, are they just less powerful gods? What's the difference? Right. And here's something. Okay. And if your gods are not, yeah if your gods are fallible, and your human type beings, characters are immortal, then it really is just the power, how much power you have.

Speaker: Right. A million years ago in a philosophy class, I was taught that a God must be all knowing, all powerful and immortal. And so also in these fantasy books, when they start like sneaking around, like God's being like, I'm like, well, that's just a more powerful being. Then that's not a God. Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah. Because if you can do anything without them knowing. That suddenly makes them very much just a being, not a God.

Speaker: But, i you know, maybe I'm making too fine a point on a just whimsical fantasy genre. In north in Norse mythology, there are gods above the gods that we know about.

Speaker: Now that makes sense. They feel more to me like they're more powerful beings. And when you read the myths, they don't have a lot to do with humans. Mostly they're fighting ice giants.

Speaker: and And it's almost like the humans knew about these more powerful beings and had a mythology about them. I mean... That being said, there is also, I think, more of the deeper myths with you know um Odin and creating the human language. and you know i I don't mean to downplay it, um but I did find it very fascinating reading the myths and finding that there were beings that that the gods thought of as gods. Yeah, which I think, and what makes it really real to me when I'm reading fantasy is if they can weave in some rituals and practices that, you know, not over-explained, but just like something that brings it present, that it's not just like, ah sprinkle this in over here but it for for when it's useful, but it's not really a part of the story.

Speaker: Everyday life. Yeah. Yeah. um Like again, City of Brass, I think does an excellent job of that. I think Sword of Kaigen did that really well. um Also Thud.

Speaker: So one of my favorites is Curse of Chalion. So in that one, you gain magic from it's the from the gods and you are a saint.

Speaker: But sainthood does not depend on you being morally good. It depends on if you're just open to the God. So the God can use you in whatever way.

Speaker: So he, the main character of Curse of Chalion, accidentally becomes a saint to the bastard God. Scandalous. Yes. Yes.

Speaker: And the bastard god in this book is kind of like the the the trickster, the wild card, wild magic kind of feel. But what I liked about that is, in so in this one, you have kind of mystical interactions with the gods, but they don't they don't appear. They're not like an active character that's going to take direct action. And, you know, like they have to work through you, which makes them feel more godlike. Which is also interesting because it just feels like this is something i love too is when something like that taps into something that just feels really true of just like sort of what you choose to interact with in your life will work through you.

Speaker: um if you are choosing I mean, it's sort of like, this is how I explain the law of attraction when people, you know, when people are like, oh, it's just really woo woo, where I'm like, well, not really. If you are like, i see so many white trucks around town. I just see them everywhere I go. You start to notice white trucks wherever you go.

Speaker: And while as there's not actually more white trucks, you are seeing more, you're noticing more, and that feedback is going into your brain that there are more white trucks because you're seeing them more.

Speaker: And so it's kind of the same thing of like if you are kind and you focus on kindness and it just like amplifies this kindness in your life, you know, and then like, or and it can be bad things too. If you are like getting really into alcoholism, that will work its destruction through your life too. Like what you choose to amplify is important and you're not always aware of it, which is also why I enjoy that he becomes an accidental state saint. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Yeah, accidental and reluctant.

Speaker: This week on Discworld Delight. We are delighted that you're still playing. Nobody was fooled. This time on TikTok.

Speaker: Clockwork Liar says, thief of time. One of the weirder ones. I've always liked the old idea of the more accurate a map is, the less useful it is. Whereas this book had the old man thinking if you can measure the smallest unit of time, then you've trapped it within the boundary, which means it can't go anywhere.

Speaker: Also, can we all agree that Susan needs a friggin' matchmaker girl getting together? ah Not a merperson says, which by the way makes me immediately suspicious that you are in fact a merperson.

Speaker: We Mad Arthur is technically a fegal raised by gnomes. yeah Excellent point. It is true. Neil Jackman says thief of time. Paul Gillings 332 says thief of time. And Eric Bridge says thief of time. And Eric Bridge gets the little blue search thing on TikTok. So congratulations. You got the search comment.

Speaker: You don't know what that means. I have no idea about. That means you're pure of heart, Mary. Oh. You've never TikTok'd so hard.

Speaker: Ready? Yeah. For this week. Because is Squirrel Delight. okay

Speaker: I'm an acting constable now, Sarge, said Nobby. Mr. Collins said so. Gave me a spare helmet. I'm carving myself a badge out of of... What's that? Like waxy, kind of like candles, but you can't eat it?

Speaker: Soap, Nobby. Remember the word.

Speaker: Excellent.

Speaker: To segue from our Discworld delight, let us bring up Good Omens. Let's bring it up, Mary. Now that one is all about religion.

Speaker: Good Omens? Do you mean Hogfather? No, I mean Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. It's not a Discworld book, but it's by Terry Pratchett.

Speaker: I'm sorry. I was thinking of books we've covered. i got confused. But we you have both read it. c t c ts t Yes, yes, yes. And yeah, it is all about religion, isn't it? And it's ineffable.

Speaker: That is exactly what I was going to bring up. So even though the angels don't know everything and they're not infallible, God is ineffable.

Speaker: So... The religion works. The religion works. So here is a series that I stopped reading. I know you're going to shocked. Shocker. But I can tell you exactly when and why.

Speaker: It was a purposeful and discontinuing. ah His Dark Materials. I know. Many people love these books. I very much liked the first book.

Speaker: Nope. The scene where... humans, parents, children are crossing a river and the, I don't know, Dementor type creatures were coming and, and like separating the adults from their demons.

Speaker: And they would just like stop moving and everything. And a dad's carrying a daughter across the river and it happens. And she's like falling out of his arms.

Speaker: I stopped reading. No, no, no, no, no. I can't do that. So that's why. So you can't even make fun of me for stopping. I can't. I'm almost crying right now just thinking about it.

Speaker: I didn't even read. I didn't even make it that far. I read the first one. The first one made me so sad that I would i just was like, well, that's enough for me. Yeah. Yeah. ah And in that one, I guess, well, spoiler, if you're going to read the third one, To Kill God at the end of that series.

Speaker: So they just killed a more powerful being. Yeah. Yeah. ah Yeah. I guess we can't really comment on it since neither one of us read the third book. but Oh, good point. Good point.

Speaker: i was I was confused by it all. And hurt. I did like the daemons and kind of like your soul picture outside of your body. Although it turns out that that's very dangerous because people can sever it and it's not good. no Yeah, I hate that.

Speaker: another book that we have not covered, but I like this one. it no one in the book is practicing the religion, but in Mistborn, in the first one, Hero of Ages,

Speaker: hero of the ages, there's a character, Cesar, who is teaching someone else about all the religions that used to be in existence that the god emperor has wiped from the face of the earth. And he's very respectful with each one. And he has, he's like, their their type, their their people can can hold all like information and share it with each other.

Speaker: So he finds it very important that these religions not get lost. And there's a reason the main character wants to know all these religions.

Speaker: That does come into play. But I loved the idea of a people whose the religions weren't even theirs, but they're holding on to the record of them in their living memory because they thought they were important.

Speaker: Yeah, looking through the religions of the books we've covered, I don't think I hit all of them, but, you know, we have most recently Sword of Kaigen, polytheistic.

Speaker: um And then, you know, of course, they have the Yama, which is kind of, to me, not to oversimplify, like the Force, yes? It's a little more like the last Airbender where they've like earth, wind, fire... I don't remember the god. Did they have polytheism? I think it's like a brother and a sister god. Oh, oh right, right. oh my Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Their whole creation story.

Speaker: Sorry. I'm back. I'm with it now. That's all right. Then we go to one Dark Window, which has more of a primordial feel, animalistic, nature-centered, because you have the spirit of the wood. And I know we touched on this lately. Still love the duology, by the way.

Speaker: No hate. None. Love it. But why does the spirit of the wood live in the Ucian? Yeah. What are you? that makes it like the chi And then like, what are the trees? Are the trees her acolytes? Yeah.

Speaker: I don't understand. Are the trees the holy men of the forest? Moving on. are the trees just sentient? it felt like It felt like the trees were just sentient to the spirit.

Speaker: But it didn't seem like they were always in agreement. Right. And so the shepherd king becomes this intermediary. And then what is he? Is he a small G God?

Speaker: Is he a prophet? Is he a saint? He's a king. Why is he? He's a king, but he's more than a king because he's this intermediary between the humans and the spirit realm.

Speaker: Then I guess more of a prophet. A prophet, right?

Speaker: City Brass, obviously Islam. Also, I think a touch of Zoroastrianism. Yeah, because we have two religions. You have the one, yeah, which feels very, they never call it zoro Zoroastrianism, but that's what it feels like.

Speaker: And then the Nahids are kind of like small g gods, I would say. Which always used to annoy me when in grammar, you know, they'd always say you capitalize God and then any other gods is not capitalized. It's like, well, out of respect, I'm going to capitalize all of them. And then i was like, no, it's because God is a... It's a proper name, isn't it?

Speaker: Yeah, a proper name. But I still like capitalizing gods. I think you should do it. Thud, my personal favorite, because... In th third, we have Tack.

Speaker: And what I think is very interesting and classic Terry Pratchett, and I love him so much, Tack first writes himself.

Speaker: And right there we have a problem. What do you mean he wrote himself? He just did. Shut up. Then he writes the laws.

Speaker: Then he writes the world. Then a cave and a geode. And he's done. And requires no ritual or worship. The only requirement is you have to think.

Speaker: It's beautiful. And to give context, this is the dwarves' god. Yes, sorry. In thud, this is the one that's talking about. Thus the caves and the geode. Yeah.

Speaker: Which we've covered quite a few. you know Polytheistic, monotheistic, primordial. Which I would just say with Tak, that's one of the religions that sits with you after the book.

Speaker: You know, it's like, that's how Toc wrote the laws, you know. that's Right, and that is very important that the laws were number two. Not the world, the laws.

Speaker: Oh, and I guess they do have the grags. The grags are like the the holy men. The translator of the law, translators of the law. Which I think is very important if you're going to weave a religion into a fantasy that you have the people who keep it intact.

Speaker: You got to have your temples. you got to have your people who are in the temples. And then you got to have your rituals, your practice. eho Personally, that's what I think. trying to think of a book that had religion that didn't have the structure like that.

Speaker: There were no temples. I guess the cards in um the Shepherd King duology are the structure. Well, and that one's interesting, like we said, because it's almost not a religion. It's just their relationship with a spirit that lives in their world.

Speaker: It's not a religion, Mom, I swear. It's just my relationship with a spirit.

Speaker: ah It's like a magical being that lives near them that they have to figure out how to live with. Nothing religious about that.

Speaker: Okay, well, actually, no, I'm glad you said that because I did write down the exact definition of religion to see to see if these all were religions. So, religion, a system of beliefs, values, and practices that connect people to a god, gods, or the spiritual world.

Speaker: Hmm. So you could say that them using the cards connected them to the spiritual world, Mary. Boom, religion. All

Speaker: Fight me. I feel that's a stretch. That's not a stretch. It's literally the definition. i know. And she's a spirit, so doesn't she live in the spiritual world? But it feels like she lives in this world.

Speaker: Wrong. She lives in the ocean. And the ocean is obviously spiritual. Well, it's kind of a portal to a spiritual place. Doesn't she take the ocean? the ocean in the book seems to signify, as we talked about, consciousness.

Speaker: when she When our main character, Elspeth, is in right his mind, she's in an ocean. So whose consciousness does the spirit live in?

Speaker: Dun, dun, dun. That's God. so I am but a spirit floating in the ocean of consciousness. So is is the spirit everyone's collective collective subconscious?

Speaker: No. Oh, how do you know? Because she pops out of the ocean and tries to kill people. That's how I know. Sounds like the collective subconscious to me. My unconscious would never.

Speaker: i hate it when we fight. ah Okay, here's one. Here is a book that we have not covered, but I have read and you have not. ah But I will just say the Daughter of the Moon Goddess is one where the gods are characters rather than gods.

Speaker: deities that the characters pray to. And in this sense, it does not feel like a religion. because like i guess because the humans aren't really, the main character is a human, but she's surrounded by all of the gods in like the celestial realm.

Speaker: e So it feels more like the setting of the book rather than a religion. And it is done very well and beautifully. So well worth the read, I would say.

Speaker: I actually started that one. It doesn't count as a did not finish because I'm working on it.

Speaker: hu but Well, we keep throwing books at us, at ourselves. know. So that makes sense. keep throwing books at each other. So I have a question for you.

Speaker: If you were to create a fantasy religion, what would it be? what, I think it would be a mixture of small g gods and egregore kind of mixed together.

Speaker: um Like... you know You'd have your like house god, your little house fairy, your house god, that you your hearth and home fairy. And i think you'd have your ritual, and as your rituals make them stronger.

Speaker: And so there would be people in the world who don't believe in any of it, can't see any of it. um And then the people who do and like see it very clearly and have their rituals.

Speaker: And, ah you know, it would kind of be a little bit like, you know, you'd have your garden fairies and gnomes and gods and tree gods. And and it would be sort of different for each person because where their intention goes, energy flows. e That's cool. I like that.

Speaker: So then would you have any large G gods over that? Any overarching... spirit yeah structure yes but it would be completely unknown and unknowable to the humans but and it would there would be little um like sort of funny bits in there where they'd be like you're not ready for that like you can't handle you can't handle that we're we we are what you can handle that's why we have been given to you yeah um but the feeling would be complete love i believe in your religion already

Speaker: Oh, thank you. Doesn't take much to to make me a convert. I'm in. i was going to ask you, what about you? But then I realized you already have written a religion into a book. Yes. And um by the way,

Speaker: That book. Have we ever talked about this? I feel like we missed this. we We covered it a little bit. Okay. Go ahead. Mary's fabulous, wonderful book weaves religion into itself perfectly.

Speaker: It's balanced like a fine wine and you will enjoy every page of this book. But if you want to take a moment to talk about your religion, I'm happy to listen. We started an interesting point in the world because the gods are lost.

Speaker: So there are only a few people who know, remember, continue on the rituals. And they continue them on even though they know the gods are lost.

Speaker: And there are some people who now no longer believe the gods exist at all. So the rituals or their everyday life and expletives that they use are totally different. because they have evolved a different sort of... they've They've substituted the land in place of any sort of deity.

Speaker: I love a lost god. I do. and do too. Lost civilization, lost god, give it to me.

Speaker: And when I first started writing, the land part was... you know, ah I saw it more as just like, we don't believe in anything but the earth beneath our feet and that's it.

Speaker: But because this is an agrarian society, there can't help but be a sense of love and reciprocation between the land and the people.

Speaker: So it does become a type of religion in and of itself with its own rituals. Yeah, I love that. Even though they would never say that, you know, there's a God. Speaking of a ritual, that how your society handles death, that scene brought me to tears. i thought it was very beautiful.

Speaker: Oh, thank you. No, Mary. Speaking of death. I did have one more quote. Oh, yes. And I don't know that we have anything. i don't know if it's a topic of discussion, but it's a quote I really liked. And I thought it had to do with what we were talking about today. And that quote is, mankind can rise no higher than their conception of God.

Speaker: Whoa. Yeah. would have to think about that. That is that. Okay. So that is what, when you were talking about, but you know, when you're focused on something and that's drawing it into your life.

Speaker: So how does having a God that is fallible change a culture? And if they can they, cause they can, if they can't rise higher than, than their God.

Speaker: Right. which you can see with the vampires and the world that that goddess created is real violent and rough and she's violent and rough. So it's like the cards are stacked against them. They can't get any better. Yeah, I don't like it.

Speaker: I don't want to live there anyway. No, no. Oh, this is the bad place. Oh, this is the bad place. Speaking of this is the bad place, Mary, what was your spark of the week?

Speaker: Birds again. So my spark of the week is the Robin that I just love. i You know, we see other birds come through that are rarer and flashier but for some reason it's the robin coming by and having a morning bath that I just I don't know I just love it so much I think it's because it's the same family the robins come every year feels very connected to what you're talking about with like little house beings I feel like the robins are connected to that I love that Carolina what is your spark of the week

Speaker: I got a haircut today. Speaking of ritual and routine, and it just made me feel fresh and pampered. Let's see. yeah My hair's curly, so it's gotten a little outrageous during the day. but um No, it looks cute. But it feels nice, and it really smells good. And it looks like it gave it body. Yeah, i got some like face framing done. Nice, nice. Almost went for bangs, but i just can't. like They look, I like them, but like they just, can't.

Speaker: i I'm not a, bank I can't, the maintenance. I like either very long hair or a pixie cut. But the problem is once you a pixie cut, you have keep cutting it. Yeah. And then it takes so long, the in-between time, and I get very bored. Let us know in the comments what your favorite religions are in fantasy, what you like, what you don't like, any pet peeves, anything we've missed.

Speaker: Tell us all about it. And as always, we are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.