Transcript
Speaker: What does it mean to be a hero and what does it mean to be whole? Have you read The Sword of Kaigen? If not, stop now!
Speaker: Spoilers ahead!
Speaker: Welcome to Mythic Mirror, the podcast for lovers of myth and fantasy who want to live magical, fulfilling lives. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter. And I will just warn you all now, I am sipping my ginger tea and getting better from either some kind of virus or something. So, uh...
Speaker: It might be a shorter episode. But we'll see. We'll see. we usually We say that and then it never is. And we have a lot to talk about. We are talking about the Sword of Kaigen.
Speaker: Kaigen? I heard someone say Kaigen. Kaigen. I like Kaigen better. I've heard it both ways now. So...
Speaker: I think it is Kaigen. Kaigen. So first off, before we get into why this book made everyone cry, ah what did you love about this book?
Speaker: I did. You and I talk a lot about atmosphere, and I did love that I was immediately... Well, I say immediately, like post getting over the technology thing, i was completely absorbed in the atmosphere of the book.
Speaker: I felt like I could smell the snow and feel the wind. I felt like I was totally immersed in that world, which I loved. It became very vivid in my imagination.
Speaker: And it was a very beautiful story. What about you? What did you love? I would totally agree with that. the poetry of it. And I don't mean rhyming obviously, but the, yeah. And I, and I think that's part of the beauty of the language is part of what makes it feel so immersive.
Speaker: So yeah, I think the language and how she shaped scenes and emotion, uh,
Speaker: really, really was beautiful. And I actually found a quote, let me pull it up here, um where she's talking about how she writes fight scenes. And I just thought it was so great because you can feel that in her in her writing, when you're when you're reading, especially that main battle, um I could see what she was saying happening in the book.
Speaker: So she says, in my opinion, the key to writing strong action scenes is to treat action like dialogue. Each line of dialogue justifies its place on the page by revealing something about the world or characters, adding flavor, advancing the plot or escalating tension, et cetera. If you apply that same criteria to each beat of an action sequence, you should be able to create an engaging action scene that doesn't feel like filler.
Speaker: And I thought the way each person fought differently, you know, she focused on, it was their character shown through in the way they fought each action they took.
Speaker: um And without actually talking about the end of the book, because we'll get there, i did want to ask you just your immediate feelings after the book. What did you feel inside?
Speaker: Were you satisfied? Were you dissatisfied? What do you remember? Yeah, it's kind of a mixed feeling.
Speaker: In one sense, I was satisfied because it was such a rich and beautiful world to step into. And in another sense, I was dissatisfied.
Speaker: And I don't know if you want to go into why now, because i think that will get into the ending. Yeah, we'll get into the okay we'll get into that in a second. I was just curious about your first just initial take. Yeah. I felt very raw.
Speaker: I felt just sort of like it took me a while to process it. But like you said, yeah, to have entered into that world felt like a delight. And then as I processed it there, we'll talk about our disappointments and our...
Speaker: I think also too, there's just so much grief at the end that any glimmer of hope, you were just like, it was like coming up for a breath of air. I think too, at the end, I felt like, thank God.
Speaker: And then i was like, accept, and we'll get to that later. We'll get to that accept in a minute. Yeah, I think this is part of the accept is that you go through so much starting, you know, about 40% of the way through the book.
Speaker: And there is so much sorrow that it felt like there wasn't enough outside of that to kind of give you the the payoff. Now, granted, i think she calls it a tragedy.
Speaker: But it it I think the ending does try to, like she ends it on ah on a beautiful moment. So it it feels like it should feel satisfying.
Speaker: um Another thing I noticed about this book is I think everybody's brain works like this, where you're trying to put the puzzle together the whole time and trying to figure out where it's going, what's going to happen.
Speaker: um And at no point did it ever go where I thought it was going to. um i think And because of that, I felt so much tension, even in scenes where you already know what's going to happen.
Speaker: um So starting from this point on, spoiler spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, don't watch this till you read the book. Book club.
Speaker: When Misaki, we go back in time to Misaki bringing Robin home to meet her parents. And I'm so nervous. And I'm so curious what they're going to say. Even though I already know they must say no. She's been married to Takeru for 15 years. So it's like, I thought she did a really good job with that because I felt i felt that tension.
Speaker: And in all the flashback scenes, when you're going back to her at school, you're so intrigued by her and her story and where it's going to go. And you're like, I know exactly where it goes. But how does it get there? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I thought that was very well done. I did too. And one of the questions was, how did her family, like first you think her parents must have not loved her. And then you get that flashback and you see how much they didn't,
Speaker: do love her and then in later conversations with the brother you find out more and this book does bring up that question of
Speaker: is is love enough when you're, so with Robin, the dad knew that, you know, and he was, he is as sad as she is when he says, no, you can't, you can't return with Robin and Miriam.
Speaker: And he says that he's, you know, he is a good boy. He is a good boy. His life, you you won't be safe. You know, this this life that he will lead you through won't be ah a happy one.
Speaker: And then when we meet Robin again, you find out that that's true. You know, his wife has died in a fight in a fight. So then that brings up the question of, you know, the tagline of the book is, is it better to die sharp in a war or rust in peace or something like that? Is it better to die sharp in war than rest through a time of peace? Yes. Right. So, I mean, i think that doesn't quite work for Misaki because she does neither. i genuinely love Misaki as a character, and I genuinely don't think I fully understand her. Even though it goes into it so much, I think the problem is my stupidity for not fully grasping this character.
Speaker: um Because she's such a voracious fighter. that it's deeply shocking to me that she goes back and is a demure housewife for 15 years.
Speaker: I did understand her choice to marry the person her parents had picked out for her and not lose her entire people and country and culture.
Speaker: um And then the question is, why did she choose to bury her warrior self I mean, it seems like she thought that would help her help make her happy.
Speaker: And that's why she didn't fight back with the father-in-law who was horrible and the husband who was emotionless. And that's kind of why she just folded up inside of herself. And, and I understood that too, because i think even the most You know, someone who's ready to fight the world can still get beaten down by people in their own family.
Speaker: Yes, but for somebody whose identity is described so many times in the book as a weapon, as a knife, as a warrior, as a fighter who has a genuine bloodlust, does not care if they kill people, it feels...
Speaker: insane to have her put the sword under the kitchen floorboards for 15 years. It feels like and truly it wasn't until the very end where she's forced to protect, forced to take it up to protect her family that this warrior comes back out. It just feels like and and I'm not saying the writer's wrong by any stretch of the imagination. I think I'm feeling the frustration you're supposed to feel the whole book when she just keeps taking it heard
Speaker: you know when she's getting yelled at for having miscarried it just like you know I'm supposed to be upset and I am upset yeah yeah so you know good job to the author there but yeah her identity where she sort of reawakens to herself it doesn't it feels uh when she finally does it is that feeling of like like finally I had a question here, but I don't know.
Speaker: now it feels stupid to ask and I don't remember what my thoughts were, but just sort of something about along the lines of like, what is the difference between having power and believing that you are allowed to use it?
Speaker: I mean, is she still powerful for those 15 years? Because she obviously still is a powerful warrior, but she just doesn't believe that she's allowed to be one.
Speaker: I don't know. I don't think there's an answer to that question. It just crossed my mind. No, it's interesting. If you buried your own power, you are powerless until you unbury it.
Speaker: So true.
Speaker: My brain is not totally on. no you're fine. It was a stupid question. It was a stupid question. if This is not on you. I think it was a good question. but i just don't have a good thoughtful answer.
Speaker: Something I really thought it was beautiful is just how Kaigen is described and how the Matsuda family is described as both. They are sort of interchangeable to me, but it is just, you know, it's Honor, it's, you know, they obviously despise weakness, fear outsiders. There's like, there's, you know, it's not all beautiful, but it is beautiful in the way it's interchangeable to me.
Speaker: um And how they describe these histories that they know because these families have stayed there for so long and things that the government wouldn't understand and symbolism that the government just wouldn't understand because the people and the lifeblood that has been going on this peninsula for so long is what's real.
Speaker: And I think that's kind of bringing me to my next point of just Mamoru versus Misaki and how they're two, through them and their interchanging viewpoints, you get to see these two sides of this culture. One is the repressed, put down housewife and the other is the exalted warrior.
Speaker: You know, still a student, he still gets beat up by his dad, but... um that there is something worth protecting there. You know, that's what makes this book interesting. You're not just like, oh, it's a backward society that thinks women are less than and, you know, that wouldn't be an interesting read.
Speaker: Totally. it's There's something achingly beautiful there that's worth keeping even past the, yeah, the the definite negatives that need to get grown out of.
Speaker: Right. And the way she shows you that with, you know, a couple of the characters talk about that of, you know, they they feel their history. That's how they know that it's real. and And when, this is at the end, when Takaru is talking to all of the villagers and the volunteers from, you know, ah all of the mountain people ah from the peninsula, from all of the surrounding mountains, new the unspoken message like what he was saying was just platitudes you know thanking the government blah blah blah unimportant but he had set up his platform right where the original matsuda had said had claimed you know it's a new age and and a new a new dawn and so even though he couldn't say any real thing because the government's there
Speaker: It was one of those things where that deep lore and culture spoke when no words could be spoken. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that that is incredibly powerful because there was certain points of this book where I felt like there was no hope.
Speaker: And little pieces like that that are able to bring you hope, that are able to like show this indomitable human spirit, I think, is what makes this book like such a masterfully done book I mean, truly to have such a intense tragedy and to come away feeling even an inkling of hope, I think is, is really well done.
Speaker: You know, you you're finding your way with her of what is there, how are we going to keep going? Mm hmm. Now, before we get into the ending, let's talk about the midpoint. Yes, the midpoint. I was going to ask you what scene stayed with you after reading this book, but I think I know which scene it was.
Speaker: um I was crying at work and my coworkers were asking me what was wrong, so I had to read a little bit of it to them. None of them understood. Yeah.
Speaker: A decade later, 15-year-old Hiroshi would become known as the youngest swordsman ever to master the Whispering Plate.
Speaker: What the world would never know is that he was the second youngest. I can't. o Brave, brave of you to read it aloud.
Speaker: I know ah my sense of denial kicks in real strong. So i was like, surely not, surely not, surely not. And then that line just kept replaying in my head because it was like, yeah, that that means he's definitely dying and going come back. And he's like so oddly present the rest of the book because they keep having these dreams about him that I kept like thinking,
Speaker: he would come back in some way that there'd be some meaningful connection of like, even like seeing him on the other side or like being able to talk to him. And it just like, yeah, they do get that pine growing up where the burial was, which does feel like a symbol and a sign since that was the original meaning of their name. And that's where they go to talk to him.
Speaker: So at least they had that since the government's horrible and took all the bodies. Which that whole part after you go through the battle, which is...
Speaker: so tragic what the government does next is like infecting the wound oh god yeah what happened before was at least clear-cut violent and tragic but then when when the government comes and and takes the bodies to do whatever with and then they just throw them into a mass grave that made me very upset yeah you're just like can we get a break Yeah. And I didn't cry.
Speaker: Like I cried a little bit at his at his death. And she did a great job of making, you know, his last moments beautiful, which is, you know, something to hold on to when you have to go through what happens next.
Speaker: ah It was any time we are then with Masaki afterwards. That's when I couldn't stop crying. Mm-hmm. And I guess that is kind of the thing is for the person who's dying, it's not as sad as for the people who are left behind. But I was so shocked because you you rarely get one of the point of view characters dying. It's like, this this isn't allowed.
Speaker: Right. She makes such a good point with this book of to have a life snuffed out like that when there was so much left for him to live and become.
Speaker: And that is what war is. You know, the war doesn't pick like not everybody gets to be like the uncle who who has. waited his whole life for this moment.
Speaker: And I did ah did appreciate that Misaki did have a chance to talk to Mamoru beforehand. And so you, as the reader, do know that he knows what he's doing going into it. I mean, yes, he's too young and yes, it's a tragedy, but it's also that he's very clear on who he's protecting and who he's fighting for. He's not...
Speaker: ah you know brainwashed by the government thinking that this is some glorious thing he knows it's a lie and he knows he's protecting his family and that's um also a very beautiful thing that carries through to the end of the book of that these people are able to, because, you know, it's obvious if they were to resist, they'd just be wiped off the face of the earth.
Speaker: The government would just take care of it. So to be able to work alongside the government and resist because they are such powerful fighters and because there is such a love and a community is, that is, i thought that was very beautiful.
Speaker: Yeah, and and and the fact that You know, Masaki is at first upset that Takaru came back without him or instead of him and left his son to die.
Speaker: Uh, Which I totally understand the feeling. And then also as ah as a reader, you're looking at it going, you know, what if what if he did fight and say, no, Memorial is coming back with me.
Speaker: Then you would have lost the um this the the blacks metalsmith yeah the blacksmith and the
Speaker: And two and there the other two kids of the blacksmith had escaped and were in the forest hiding in the caves. So they would have been orphans without their older brother, mom, or grandma or dad. So he it was tragic, but he did die saving people that he loved.
Speaker: And he mastered the Whispering Blade. Mm-hmm. which I just so wanted them to figure out when the mom, when Masaki got there, but it was something he'd wanted and tried to do for so long. And then he did. And I was like, come on, figure it out. His sword is nowhere near the bad guy. No, not the bad guy, but you know. The dragon slayer.
Speaker: Which that was another part that sticks out in my mind is when the brothers are working together and they create that ice dragon. And I think that is when you see It's interesting because they don't say anything to each other, but that's when you see the love between the two brothers.
Speaker: Yeah. is Is them working seamlessly to together to create this creature, knowing each other's strengths and weaknesses and and blending it all together to create this amazing ice dragon.
Speaker: Sorry, I am going to pull it together. Yes, it's okay. Sorry.
Speaker: You're making me feel quite hot, Liz. I did cry. i know. You're too sick to cry right now. Yes, that's right. Before we go on to the end, what we loved, what we perhaps felt mild disappointment in to strong disappointment, shall we do our disworld delight? Oh, yes, let's.
Speaker: as Since I post these as little one-offs on TikTok, I will let everybody know that the reason I am crying is because on this podcast we were discussing the Sword of Kaiken.
Speaker: That's all. um guesses on tiktok were for thud thud and alzy says honestly shocking there aren't references to joseph in pyramids at least ones that i noticed i said thank you i agree that uh because i sang joseph in the amazing technicolor dream color yeah yeah because it was pimon yeah yeah i remember uh then we have quite a few guesses for the fifth elephant uh world of poo which i genuinely forgot was a terry pratchett book and i thought this person might be being mean thud fifth element baby um thud and fifth element okay maremer you're saying element or elephant
Speaker: I'm saying element because I'm an idiot, but there's a lot of elephant emojis in here. And ah they are guessing elephant. Yes.
Speaker: um And that is the correct answer. Good job, guys. I'm so proud of you. Hold your loved ones close for no reason. No reason at all. For this week, it was the thrill, not of the chase, but of the standing still, of remaining so calm, composed, and genuine that, for just long enough, you could fool the world and spin it on your finger.
Speaker: These were the moments he lived for, when he was really alive. His thoughts flowed like quicksilver, and the very air sparkled. Later, that feeling would present its bill.
Speaker: For now, he flew.
Speaker: Very nice, Mary. Very nice reading. thank you. Okay. Here's my big fat question. Takeru and his redemption arc.
Speaker: Is it deserved? You say Takeru, I say Takeru. Yeah, it's probably Takeru. Either way, did he deserve a redemption arc? Were you satisfied? I was very... Me neither.
Speaker: happy and satisfied when he first started to show emotion and we first started cracking through into that and um and the fight between them i loved yeah agree I think it needed to either happen earlier in the book so we had more time but I okay this is what I found unsatisfying and I think it's all tied together is that so the middle of the book is so huge and epic that you you expect there to be a final confrontation of some kind something you know we're leading up with the government doing all these things and and you understand that you know that they can't take on the government at this time
Speaker: but, um, something I wanted to see the two of them grow and work together a little bit more. Um, I do think the moment from him,
Speaker: him admitting that he would become the mountain and that's why he would be emotionless and that's how he survived living with his abusive dad. Um, that moment, which was a great beginning to his redemption arc and and the fight that they have where she finally like breaks through to him, to the ending, it didn't feel like enough happened for that growth to be realistic.
Speaker: um
Speaker: Yeah, and and she even says in the book, she says that this wasn't like a magic,
Speaker: I can't remember the line, but it was something about, you know, this wasn't a, all of a sudden everything's better and they found love. But then in the next like three chapters, that's exactly what happens.
Speaker: ah And I wanted to believe in it. And I wanted to feel all those things. And I wanted to have my mind changed about Takaru and really see him for who he is and have him, you know, I think we got to see so much of and in such a great way of Misaki kind of coming back alive and unfolding and reintegrating with herself after going through trauma. And so you want to see that with Takaru as well.
Speaker: And then it kind of just gets brushed over. the rebuilding of the village gets brushed over. Like he he he talks about his plan and you're like, wow, okay, this is great. He's he's using his mind. to help people and he cares about people and he you know, this is the beginning of that arc. And then it just, you know, months pass and the school's there and this is there and, and now Robin's here. Um, yeah. So it just felt very like we went through hell and every second of it, then the rebuild was just kind of glanced over. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. Especially, like the I feel like the rebuild should have happened immediately following Mamoru's death because there's so much that I can't forgive exactly right after that when he is telling Misaki not to go back and save Hiyori.
Speaker: And she goes back and saves her friend anyway. I'm just like, uh, unforgivable. um And, you know, speaking of, just to take a pause, there was a moment where you and I both knew where this book was going. And that was Hiyori. You and I both knew she would ultimately commit suicide.
Speaker: um Which is just like, you know, just the continuing tragedy of the book. You just, that, again, you know where it's going and you still feel this awful tension as you're reading it.
Speaker: back to Takeru. Then also, you know, after coming into his house and instead of being relieved that his wife and children are safe and that she literally saved them, he immediately starts criticizing her for, for, for what?
Speaker: It was just kind of, and it's like, it's not like the mountain or whatever, you you know, he's like, oh, I become the mountain. I don't feel things. I'm like, well, you're an asshole. Like that wasn't very mountainy of you to just be a jerk.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. And I think he's, he's got two things going on where he's emotionless and he's got drummed into him this culture of what a wife should be, but you already have the, um you already see from Masaki's parents that, you know, the dad had her train. So, you know, that there are people within this culture who value women And, you know, her, his brother truly loves his wife.
Speaker: And he came from the same, you know, traumatized dad or traumatizing dad. So, yeah, there's only so much you can excuse of his behavior. And I felt like, because, okay, I understand going totally emotionless and and and all of these problems being so small because you are the mountain. And, know,
Speaker: that that becomes your coping mechanism that then whatever. But when he said the thing about, oh, that he kept, he didn't want to get close to her because his parents always fought and he thought like any interaction they would have would turn into a fight. And I was thinking back to the miscarriage when she's holding him and begging him to stay with her. And he's like, this is unseemly and and makes her let go of him and he leaves her alone.
Speaker: And then, you know, when he after he stops being the mountain and finally like feels all the things that he's been holding off his whole life, you know, then he's much, you know, he's considerate and talking about I don't I didn't want to leave you in your silence again and and I was so horrible and stuff.
Speaker: But it's like that was, that is more than just not wanting to fight and not feeling things. Yeah, you're a bad person. You've been emotionally abusing your wife.
Speaker: Yeah. For 15 years. There needed to be more. And I think... a A, we skimmed through time. So we lost of them actually really rebuilding together um when she decides to do a restaurant and he says no at first and then yes. Like we we don't get to be there for that conversation. we just hear about it later when she's telling Robin.
Speaker: So it's like all these, i i needed to see them be a partnership. I needed it to become this, you know,
Speaker: where they really do become what she tries to describe what, um, Masaki feels with him of feeling like home and held and stuff. but It's like, I need to see that in action.
Speaker: I need them to go up against something together. And yes, they kind of do it with the government coming again, but there's a couple of things. I didn't understand why the government was coming and having their council in Masaru's house. Um,
Speaker: It really didn't have anything to do with them except to say, no, we're not giving you any goods or support. um So that didn't make sense to me. And it wasn't enough. Like, I didn't see enough of ah of a partnership there.
Speaker: And if we're going to talk about the part that I was truly most disappointed in. I feel that the only like happy ever, nobody who's ever worked in a restaurant would write starting a restaurant as happy ever after. i was like, oh God, no.
Speaker: save Save me, save me. I mean, I guess if you're the owner, yeah, and it's a small little like village cafe, it can be fun. I know. i know. That felt a little out of the blue.
Speaker: know I'm going to start. And like, I see how she like tried, you know, because she's such a good cook at the beginning of the book, blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, and and that she was in charge of rationing the food. But again, we skipped all that.
Speaker: So we didn't get to... to yeah live through it so that that conversation made sense it didn't it that decision did not make sense correct so I think a large bit of my dissatisfaction stems from the fact that finding out after finishing the book that this series was not continued and I think if And I, and so here's the question.
Speaker: If you're an author who has decided to discontinue a series, but you still sell the first of the series, do you rework the ending to make it a standalone? Cause she's calling it a standalone, but it, it throws so much at you that it's dissatisfying. You, you don't know, you still don't know what the government and the, the, um, other, the,
Speaker: Other people. Who is it? Their allies? The government and their allies are doing... Yeah, you don't know what they were doing with the bodies. What... oh They took pictures of them and sent them to the Ranganese to show them. Yeah, but there was... Yeah, it seems like... It was like, what?
Speaker: There had to be more, like... And it also felt Because then why would they... anyway yeah go ahead the biggest for me the biggest thing left wide open is you know robin saying he's fighting this guy who's and creating an army of orphans so you're like oh okay that's the that's going to be the big final showdown right two or three books from now yeah so now you're like oh okay now we just have this kidnapped orphan that will never know her story yeah right it's fine and uh Yeah, so there's there's quite a few things. So then the question is, do you go back and and take those things out so that it can be ah standalone?
Speaker: Where you just are left with the ambiguity of like they do stand up to the government in their own way and we're not sure how that works out. Yeah. Or do you put a note in the beginning of the book just saying like this was written as the first of a series, that series is no longer happening. Just like a fair warning. I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker: That's the question. Yeah. I don't know, but it does tickle me that you picked this book because you're such a series non-finisher. i know. lot What are you even worried about? I finish series, okay? You do.
Speaker: You have. Just not those two. Three. Just not those three. I've finished many other series, okay? I know, that is a little ironic.
Speaker: But I would have kept reading, we have a lost, a kidnapped orphan right now. I know. i i would have finished the series. We've got to save her. Maybe we can now write a letter to her saying, please?
Speaker: Please? i read her blog post about it. She seems to be quite finished with this. All right. I will respect that. I do, too. And I will thank you for writing this story. It was yes extremely delightful. to I mean, no, I was. I was genuinely delighted. it was i was totally immersed.
Speaker: I thought it was very beautiful. I'm glad I read it. I am too. And on that note, Mary... was your spark of the week? My spark of the week is the support from friends and family. I had you put together a whole photo shoot for new author pictures, an author headshot, and that was really fun. And it was just so nice to have you just plan it all out and do all the do all the heavy lifting. And I just got to show up and have pictures taken.
Speaker: You're the star. It's what the stars do. Oh, thank you. And um then while I was feeling ill, another friend brought me herbs to help me out. and people checked on me. And, you know, it just I felt very supported this week.
Speaker: Good. That's very lovely. How about you? I very much enjoyed our photo shoot night. Our cousin Jennifer did our makeup and it's the best I've ever looked in my life. It was very, very nice.
Speaker: um Thank you, Emma, for taking our photos. That was very fun. And I also, i have a friend who's been working at her stand-up comedy routine and she had an opening spot this week, her first 10 minutes, and And she killed it. And she made people laugh for 10 minutes straight. And um i think that's an incredible gift. And I'm just so proud of her. And and i had a great time because I was laughing the whole time. Yay.
Speaker: I also asked a group of friends to go with me to support this person that they've, some of them had met, some of them hadn't. And they all showed up. And it made me feel so touched at such a wonderful group of friends. And they laughed and cheered. And i just, it it was a spark.
Speaker: was a true spark. That's wonderful. it does It takes, I would say, a very special kind of courage to do stand-up comedy. Oh, God, yeah. And as always, we are grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.
