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Season Six: Holiday Episode Six (2025)
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Transcript
Content Warning and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
00:00:50
Speaker
This is True Crime XS.
Exploring Unique True Crime Stories
00:00:59
Speaker
So now's the point where you start getting kind of deep into the like holiday episodes. And when you do that and you've pulled all of these things together, think some of these stories are known.
00:01:11
Speaker
like I think some of these stories get out there and they're like an episode of some kind of television show. I know other podcasts have covered them. This story that we're going to tell today, like 22 years old this year, it's There's not a lot out there about it, so I took a little bit different approach, and I went through the court documents and pulled some interesting stuff about this story.
00:01:38
Speaker
Had you ever heard of this 2003 sort of shooting, sort of hostage-taking? I mean, like he's definitely taking hostages. I had never heard of it before we decided to cover it. Yeah, this one, it kind of shocked me. i looked for more media on it, and typically i can find different things. What I did end up finding, other than just the court documents, I pulled some Newsnet 5 stuff. I pulled this really old New York Times article.
00:02:05
Speaker
ah Some of the different, more standard things. I pulled bios on some of the people that were involved. ah There was a dateline about it, but it's been 20 now.
00:02:17
Speaker
And it's interesting because it's one of those stories where like a lot of it hasn't been released and the dateline got the closest to it.
00:02:30
Speaker
But some of the things I was able to pull from happened much later than the dateline. And um I like being able to do that.
Case Western Reserve University Shooting Overview
00:02:38
Speaker
um I will start off by saying that there's a couple of people centric to this.
00:02:43
Speaker
ah We're going to talk about that are still alive. um And I'd like to talk about people who survived things like this in terms of like, like what they're doing in the world today. This is the like, if you read about it on the internet, this is called the Case Western Reserve or the Case Western Reserve University shooting, depending on where you read it.
00:03:03
Speaker
ah We're going all the way back to May 9th of 2003. And this qualifies under like a school shooting, but it's not like the typical style school shooting.
00:03:16
Speaker
And here's how here's how the like summary of it goes. Dressed in camouflage, a 62-year-old man named Biswanath Halder, H-A-L-D-E-R, is wearing a flak vest and carrying a semi-automatic rifle as they entered Peter B. Lewis' building on the Case Western Reserve University's campus on the afternoon of May 9, 2003.
00:03:45
Speaker
Biswanath starts roaming the halls and he shoots the rifle off. He ends up quickly encountering a young man named Norman Wallace.
00:03:57
Speaker
So Norman Wallace is 30 years old at the time. He is a first year MBA student here at Case Western Reserve, which is in Cleveland, Ohio. And he's from Youngstown, Ohio.
00:04:11
Speaker
And he is shot and killed by Biswanath Halder first. Once other people hear the shots, the people in the building start scattering to get away from the gunmen.
Challenges of Building Architecture During Standoff
00:04:23
Speaker
So this is a Friday afternoon in May, which you went to college, I went to college. That's going to be sort of the end of the year.
00:04:35
Speaker
you're going to be prepping for things like final exams and some people going prepping for graduation. My guess is like the building is going to be busy. The campus is going to be busy, but it's maybe not as busy.
00:04:52
Speaker
ah police and the school administration start sending out emails, which is so strange to me to think of. But I guess that is, in 2003, probably the easiest way to get to the most people the quickest.
00:05:07
Speaker
These emails tell people to hide and barricade themselves in the building. A lot of the people they're sending these emails to are staff members, right? So because it's a Friday afternoon, there are fewer students and staff around because, and I even remember this, was thinking about it other day, I tended to stack my schedule Monday through Thursday, and then Friday would be a lighter day for me.
00:05:32
Speaker
But there's 100 people trapped in this building. So this building is designed by a guy named Frank Owen Gehry. you ever heard of him?
00:05:44
Speaker
Only with regard to this building. So he is an architect. um His full name is Frank Owen Gary Goldberg. He rose to prominence in the 1970s. He blended kind of strange materials into very complex structures.
00:06:05
Speaker
He's been described as fitting into what would have been the deconstruction of Tisivism period, which is a post-modern movement from the 1980s. For his own part, he largely says, like, I don't fit into those categories. He's 96 years old. He's still alive today.
00:06:24
Speaker
He had designed this building, and one of the things about his designs were they tended to be atypical or asymmetrical. So the irregular design of this building that Frank Gehry has built for Case Western Reserve University provides the shooter lots of little nooks and crannies for him to slip into.
Gun Battles and Police Engagement
00:06:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah, it creates a maze and a nightmare. So he basically ends up with underwatch and overwatch positions where he's able to snipe on people if he wants to.
00:06:58
Speaker
He moves throughout this building, and according to eyewitness encounters, he shoots at absolutely anyone that he encounters. Right.
00:07:11
Speaker
And he eventually is going to start coming in contact with security and law enforcement, and he's going to exchange gunfire with them. So we know this starts early afternoon.
00:07:27
Speaker
This hostage encounter is going to last more than seven hours. And by the time it's all said and done, the Cleveland police... ah multiple SWAT teams from the Cleveland police in nearby areas, and various members of the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Department, as well as an FBI hostage rescue team and consultants, are going to be involved in this hostage standoff.
00:07:56
Speaker
They describe this in the Dateline episodes and in some of the articles afterwards as Viswanath Halder setting up sniper-like gun battles from like concealed positions and minimalist positions within the building.
00:08:18
Speaker
But what they were able to do by advancing on this building is to force him up. Now, this building is five stories tall.
00:08:28
Speaker
Forcing him up is going to put him in a position where basically he either has to expose himself on the roof or as they clear the floors underneath, they are eventually going to get to him.
00:08:41
Speaker
He is able to shoot a professor of healthcare economics named Avi Doerr. he is He wounds Avi and also able to shoot and wound a professor of economics named Susan Helper.
00:08:57
Speaker
So Susan Helper is interesting. She was a professor at the time just at Case Western University. She came out Oberlin College and got her PhD in economics from Harvard University.
00:09:13
Speaker
What's interesting about her is 18 years later, Susan Halper is actually going to join ah President Joe Biden's administration. And she was in a role there as a senior economist at the White House Council of Economic Advisors. She did this for a year.
00:09:32
Speaker
She also served for a year as a senior advisor for industrial strategy in the White House's Office of Management and Budget. um She had, along the way, worked for multiple presidents.
00:09:46
Speaker
She was also the chief economist at the U.S. Department of Commerce at one point. She continues to hold her position at kate western university Case Western University. through all of this She was a research associate at the National Bureau of Economic Research.
Shooter's Background and Motivations
00:10:03
Speaker
She was also a non-resident senior fellow at the Brookings Institute, which is think tank on ah social science and government.
00:10:13
Speaker
um she was a member She was a committee member for the National Academy of Sciences panel on manufacturing. She did a lot of stuff. She was a visiting scholar at Oxford, the University of California, and up at MIT.
00:10:26
Speaker
um a lot of what she focused on was overseas manufacturing systems and the ways in which it could be strengthened and revitalized and how it would be able to be brought back into the U.S. so she has contributed hans since she was wounded, May 9, 2003.
00:10:46
Speaker
Now, the way this ends up going down is Botswana F. Halder is ultimately apprehended on the fifth floor of this building.
00:10:57
Speaker
He's in a classroom, And he is attempting to ah figure out a way to get to the roof when a SWAT team made up of various police officers is able to apprehend him in a closet on the fifth floor.
00:11:14
Speaker
So we're going to talk a little bit about Biswanath, but where our story really is, is like in the insane aftermath. So at the time of this incident, Biswanath was a 62-year-old dean of Calcutta, India.
00:11:31
Speaker
He had immigrated to the United States, and he had been working here for many years. Right before this happened, he attended the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve University.
00:11:41
Speaker
He had graduated in 1999, but he had gained a reputation of being a difficult personality. According to what Dateline presents to us in its episode from November 2006, Terror in the Afternoon, he had filed a lawsuit against Sean Miller, who at the time was the Case Western Reserve University administrator in their computer lab. He had accused Sean Miller of destroying his computer files in a website which he said he had built to allow fellow Indian citizens to form and grow their businesses.
00:12:23
Speaker
Now, the day of this incident, Sean Miller and Biswanath Halder have been having it out for three years. I'm not sure how much Sean Miller like is engaging Biswanath, but they have certainly gotten to the point that they have a civil case in court, and that ends up being dismissed in 2003.
00:12:46
Speaker
So you can bet that the way that civil court case was going, it sort of has an effect on all of this. Pulling from Dateline's transcript, which is available at NBCNews.com, they have a transcript in there titled School Shooting at Case Western Reserve University. And it says, a rare look inside a hostage drama, a day-long siege in which every second and decision made the difference between life and death. and This is reported on by a guy named Rob Stafford.
00:13:16
Speaker
And I'm just going to read like some some excerpts from this. But he says, terrorra ripped an entire city may nine two thousand and three violence had erupted without warning scenes unfolded live on television as camera crews gathered outside one building once famous worldwide for its distinctive architecture the school of management at case western reserve university in cleveland ohio had now become famous for something much more sinister something camera crews outside could not see And that was a shooting.
00:13:46
Speaker
The day had started out calmly with the exams over. Commencement was just around the corner. It was a quiet Friday afternoon at the end of the school year. George Klippel, the school's facilities manager, was finishing up a classroom inspection on the fourth floor.
00:14:00
Speaker
He had just gotten to the last room of the day that he would be checking. Norman Wallace, a first-year and MBA student, was chatting with friends about internships and how it was going to be a busy summer.
00:14:12
Speaker
Sean Miller, an administrator in the school's computer lab, was heading to a local bar. But for all of these people, just minutes away from leaving the management school, the sound of smashing glass and a volley of automatic gun filew gunfire signaled the beginning of a seven-hour fight to stay alive.
00:14:32
Speaker
Frantic collars bombarded the switchboard of the Cleveland Police Department at 3.57 p.m. Reporter Bill Sapphos recalled being in the newsroom at television station WKYC when word arrived there was a shooter on a rampage at Case Western.
00:14:49
Speaker
ah The quote that he gives in the Dateline episode is, I start thinking about parents who have kids going there. You want to get there as soon as possible and show people what's going on. So Bill Safos and his team speed to the scene. Police had already cordoned off the area surrounding the five-story building with police tape.
00:15:06
Speaker
No one could give in, and also, no one could leave. According to Sapphos, there was a lot of confusion. there were police running in different directions. there were a lot of students running in different directions. But a question that haunted the crew outside the building was how many people were trapped inside.
00:15:21
Speaker
Since it was the end of the school year, maybe only a few people were around and potentially at risk, but no one knew for sure. For hours, the only information reaching the crowd was the sound of gunfire sporadically echoing in the streets.
00:15:34
Speaker
Inside the building, the sound of the gunfire fire was deafening. At 4 p.m., George Krippel, the facilities manager, ran downstairs to the third floor, heading for the fire exit and escape, but he stopped when he came to an office with a window overlooking the atrium.
00:15:50
Speaker
The former Marine, George Krippel, could see a gunman on the floor below him. From George Krippel, In this episode and in police reports, we get a description of what Biswanath Halder looks like that day.
00:16:04
Speaker
So since George is a Marine, he recognizes combat gear. He says that Biswanath Halder was armed. He was wearing a flak vest, which is a protective vest, a helmet, and other camouflage field clothing.
00:16:19
Speaker
I find that highly interesting. That's somebody who like definitely is not making spur-of-the-moment decision, do you think? It almost seems like, I mean, not to make light of it, but like cosplay, right? It's a little bit of cosplay, a little bit of going to war. When people do that, I always wonder, like what do they think they look like when they're all dressed up and like whatever? they're I think that I would genuinely be alarmed if I saw somebody that looked like that no like just at school, right? Yeah.
00:16:47
Speaker
You would think... what's going on? i mean, before he started shooting, right? Yep. So, Klippel is able to climb up onto a desk to see a little bit better and kind of stay out of view. He dials 911.
00:16:59
Speaker
He is one of the first people to dial in that gives the police some crucial information about what's happening. And he's able to describe Biswana's outfit. And he in the 911 call, he says, we have a gunman in the building has just opened
Inside the Chaos and Communication Efforts
00:17:14
Speaker
fire. He's wearing a helmet, a green military helmet.
00:17:19
Speaker
And then he noticed what Biswanath Alder was looking at. and George Klippel tells the 911 operator that there's a man down and he's right outside the cafe.
00:17:31
Speaker
So George Klippel is able to see Norman, who is lying, ah wounded at the time, but dying on the ground outside of the cafe. And the 911 operator asks him, how many people are down, sir? And Klippel says, I can only see the one, but I think there's more.
00:17:48
Speaker
And he says, this guy hasn't even moved a muscle. The 911 operator in the Dateline episode responds with, oh my God. So at this point in time, Klippel realizes how vulnerable he is.
00:18:03
Speaker
He is trying to conceal himself, but he's probably visible, and or at least in the line of sight of the shooter. He ends up diving under the table that he's standing on because more shots are fired. And three-fourths below him, in the basement of this building, Sean Miller, the computer lab administrator who's been having an issue with Bitswanath Halder, is standing outside the computer lab with three colleagues, and they hear the gunfire, but they have no idea what to do.
00:18:32
Speaker
and Sean Miller's quote was, all of a sudden there's this guy standing at the end of the hallway in a flak jacket. We see a gun being raised, and we just scatter. The interviewer asked him if he thinks he's going to get shot, and Sean Miller says, oh, I was waiting for it.
00:18:45
Speaker
Sean Miller runs back into the computer lab, and there are bullets hitting the wall and door behind him. Everyone starts running, the chairs are being knocked over, they're all trying to get into a room at the back of the computer lab that is only accessible with a swipe ID card.
00:19:04
Speaker
But the person who's in the front of the group, the co-worker of Sean Miller, cannot get his ID card to work. He finally gets it to work and everyone sort of spills into the next room getting down and getting for cover and locking the door behind them, which they don't know yet if this guy's going to have an ID card and be able to get in.
00:19:29
Speaker
But when Batswanath Halder gets into the room, he clearly doesn't because he starts shooting through the wall. So these are going to be like drywall that he's shooting through.
00:19:40
Speaker
And someone in the computer lab that day with Sean Miller calls 911. And the operator tells the group to just hide. And the caller in that second 911 call describes that there's a window out into the lab.
00:19:57
Speaker
So the operator says, okay, get down below that window. From Sean Miller's perspective, he says that they can hear the gunman trying the door handle, which must be absolutely terrifying to be trapped in this room and to hear the door handle jiggle.
00:20:14
Speaker
Oh, no question. That's a scene out of a horror movie. But he says the door doesn't budge and everything got really quiet. So around 4 20 PM.
00:20:27
Speaker
So this is just 20 minutes after all this is starting. Cleveland police department deploys an eight man SWAT team. So this is a special weapons and tactics team.
00:20:39
Speaker
They come up, they put on their body armor and they start going into the building. Now, When SWAT teams go in, their main objective is to rescue and secure hostages. They do have a description of the person doing shooting.
00:20:58
Speaker
They have George Klippel saying he's wearing a green military helmet and like the military clothing. So they're still not sure what's going on inside, but they start moving through, and they're gonna move through this building for three hours.
00:21:16
Speaker
Around 7 p.m., people outside and people watching sort of live at home on television, they're going to start seeing what looks like a series of dramatic rescues. The first one is two women being rushed out of the building to safety.
00:21:35
Speaker
But the police are on television speaking into the camera, asking the gunmen to pick up a phone inside of the building, which... To me is alarming because that means you don't know where he is and you aren't able to talk to him.
00:21:51
Speaker
I mean, it's not comforting. Definitely. Right. But we have George Krippel. He's still upstairs and he is still giving information to 911 of where the shots are being fired.
Shooter's Preparations and Legal Proceedings
00:22:06
Speaker
And the 911 operator finally is able to tell George Klippel a little bit of what he can't see. And he says that police have pieced together kind of a an overall picture of what's happening.
00:22:21
Speaker
And that is that there are 100 hostages. scattered throughout the building, all of them hiding in different places. Three floors below George Klippel, we still have Sean Miller and the people that were in the computer lab hiding there, not wanting to attract the attention of the gunman.
00:22:41
Speaker
And that's a different kind of terrible, because we have George upstairs, he's able to at least whisper and talk on the phone to someone. But these guys in the computer lab have heard the gunshots, been really close to them, heard the guy walk up and jiggle the handle.
00:22:56
Speaker
They're down there wondering, is he setting up explosives? Is he coming back for us? And they are specifically like worried that he's going to like start shooting in if he hears them. So they don't say a word.
00:23:14
Speaker
Now, on the phone with 911, George Klippel is basically talking about the SWAT team. He is worried that he is now between the SWAT team and the shooter.
00:23:28
Speaker
And he wants the reassurance that they're going to get to him. And they're going through the building at this point. It would be a very thorough, slow job to clear all those nooks and crannies we talked about. Every bathroom, every closet, every classroom, every office.
00:23:43
Speaker
And Krippel said something that kind of stuck with me here. He says, they're going to make it up to the third floor eventually, right? And the operator says, yes, they will. And Krippel says, do you promise?
00:23:57
Speaker
The operator says, I promise you, i would not lie to you. And he says, George Klippel speaking in the Dateline episode, he said, you feel so isolated and alone.
00:24:08
Speaker
He said, most of my thoughts were about family and friends, and all I could think of was I wanted to see my wife and my children again. Hours after the shooting begins, at 10 p.m., George Klippel finally hears the SWAT team pounding on the door of the room that he's He says, the first thing they said was, hands on your head.
00:24:29
Speaker
so he is able to be rescued, but it's 10 p.m. So he has been in here for more than six hours at this point. Now...
00:24:41
Speaker
At this point in time, it starts to get out to the crowd that there's been at least one person harmed, and that person is Norman Wallace.
00:24:52
Speaker
They put some of his family on with a Dateline episode. It's absolutely horrible. They're just describing what they went through that day when they had no idea what had happened to him, how shocking it was that he had been killed.
00:25:05
Speaker
Right, and so he was the first person shot, right? Correct. He's the first person shot and the only person killed. Right, because after he was shot, it was no longer a surprise attack anymore, right? Because you heard the gunfire.
00:25:19
Speaker
Right, yeah, you're hearing gunshots throughout the building. Everybody's hiding. I'm not sure how long he survived. so i thought maybe he was killed instantly, but you said he was injured for a little bit. But can you imagine that scenario?
00:25:32
Speaker
well you've been shot and you're just laying there this whole time? That you're at school, your first year of your MBA program, you round the corner and you get shot. And like, he he didn't hear anything. i don't know what he saw or heard actually, but you know, nobody, the gun hadn't gone off prior. And so I can only imagine that was very confusing.
00:25:56
Speaker
o Yeah, so this guy was a day trader. He was a mortgage broker. he had 10 siblings. They start piecing all this together. i mean, obviously, we've already talked about this. They capture the shooter here, Biswanath Halder. They're piecing all of this together in
Victims' Experiences and Emotional Impact
00:26:11
Speaker
hindsight. And while somebody like Norman is like quite literally completely innocent in all of this and probably was thinking about 50 other things when he was suddenly shot by Biswanath Halder...
00:26:26
Speaker
We get an inkling that Biswana has been planning this for some time. Back in November of 2001, it's reported by a prosecutor that he had bought Cobra M11 semi-automatic rifle.
00:26:40
Speaker
And then a month later, he had bought a 9mm Ruger from a local gun store. Four days before the shooting, he had rented a getaway car. And finally, the night before the attack, according to the prosecutor, Biswanath Halder carries out one last little pre-mission check.
00:27:02
Speaker
He brings his gun just about closing time. And he shows it to the gun store manager. And he had taken the gun apart, but he couldn't put it back together.
00:27:16
Speaker
He wanted the gun store manager to help him reassemble it.
00:27:23
Speaker
And then we're able to watch video. So we see Norman Wallace standing at the school reception desk. He is just there, even though classes are finished for the year for him, to put the finishing touches on a graduation party for some of his friends.
00:27:36
Speaker
So that's how innocent Norman Wallace is in all of this. But we see Biswanath Halder calmly walk up to the school's back door on video. He is wearing exactly what George Krippel described, an army helmet. He's got a black backpack.
00:27:52
Speaker
He has that Ruger that's been put back together. he has a heavy mallet and he has this long gun. He takes the mallet out of his backpack and he starts smashing at the back door of the building again and again.
00:28:06
Speaker
And he's clearly putting some serious effort into this. And he makes a hole. He's able to then climb through this hole and to get into the building.
00:28:21
Speaker
And I think I described the Kori M11 as a long gun. I want to be bye really clear about that. I think most people would know this as a Mach 11. It has a stock and a folding piece that make it a long gun. But otherwise, it looks like what people would describe as an Uzi. Does that make sense?
00:28:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. like It's like the black standard gun with a long magazine. If you put a stock on it, it looks like a rifle, but it's really up it's really a handgun with like a stock, a brace, and a barrel adapter.
00:28:50
Speaker
He climbs through this hole, carrying this gun, ready to kill someone. So Norman Wallace has left the reception desk by this time. he has stopped and chatted with a couple of friends.
00:29:03
Speaker
And the next person that he's going to cross paths with is Mithwanath Halder. His friends see him, run into him. And from what they describe, Norman literally is walking down the hallway and then pivots, turns around coming back at them.
00:29:19
Speaker
And they see the gun and hear the gun at pretty much the exact same moment. Everybody scatters, the receptionist hides, and everybody gets away except for Norman Wallace.
00:29:34
Speaker
So he pivots like he sees it and turns back around? Yep. Oh, so he was like, no thanks. Yeah, he was trying to get away. So his friends, several of his friends talk about that moment. Several of them on video are clearly taking invasive measures. A table is flipped over. People are hiding behind it.
00:29:54
Speaker
Biswana Halder moves around for a minute, but ends up... not being able to hit any of them. I don't know if the gun jams or if he's just a terrible shot, but essentially there are a lot of targets in the video that they show at trial, but none of them ultimately end up being harmed except for Norman.
00:30:15
Speaker
Right. And he was pretty much a clear shot, right? Because he just had no idea what's going on. Right. um And I talked about some of the people who were wounded here. Professor Avi Dorr,
00:30:26
Speaker
He didn't have any way to run away. And i'm I'm saying that now because like I want to tell you like something interesting about him. He is in a wheelchair. He is literally trying to get away from Biswanath Halder in a wheelchair.
00:30:44
Speaker
The only thing he could think of is as Biswanath is coming behind him, He rolls into an open office and fell to the floor as if he had been shot and killed.
00:31:02
Speaker
So he hoists himself out of his wheelchair. That's what saves Professor Avi Dorr's life. So he lays there and he waits until he is sure that Biswanath Halder has walked away. And as you can imagine, there's a lot of farewell phone calls made. I don't know if you remember this from 9-11, how many there were at first.
00:31:23
Speaker
But it's phone calls home to say, i love you. may not make it out of this. They put a lot of those into the Dateline episode. it was very... alarming to hear. you mean people that were in the building? People that were in the building that day. I'm sorry. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, which, I mean, obviously this turned out, I mean, it was awful that Norman Wallace was murdered, but, uh, those people were rescued. Right. Yeah.
00:31:50
Speaker
Yeah. And, uh, so we talked a little bit about, uh, Susan helper. ah so Susan helper, she comes face to face with, this one, I call there in the middle of a hallway.
00:32:03
Speaker
And she sees him while she's on the second floor and slams her office door like at the exact moment that he fires. So the bullet comes through the door.
00:32:16
Speaker
And according to her, she felt like the door maybe wasn't even all the way shut. But the door had weakened the bullet. So the bullet hits her.
00:32:29
Speaker
And it basically pops her in the collarbone, the clavicle. Oh, yeah. But like even though there's a hole in the shirt, it's a much more minor wound because of the door.
00:32:42
Speaker
Right. It slowed it down. Yeah. So everyone is kind of shocked at how many bullets are fired and how few people are hurt here. We lose Norman Wallace, the 30-year-old MBA student.
00:32:56
Speaker
And we have Avidor and Susan Helper shot and wounded, but they both survived. Now, in the aftermath of all of this, Ms. Juan of Halder is charged with 338 felony counts.
00:33:14
Speaker
and That includes aggravated murder and terrorism. And his trial is going to take place at the end of 2005.
00:33:26
Speaker
By the time the trial is over, the prosecution will have called 100 witnesses. In court, he apologizes for his actions that day, but he is convicted on all accounts.
00:33:39
Speaker
And although prosecutors had made this a capital case, they had sought the death penalty for Biswanath Halder.
Shooter's Grievances and Letters
00:33:46
Speaker
The jury, ah instead, they decided that he should get life in prison without parole.
00:33:53
Speaker
Now, there's been multiple appeals here, and this guy does some of the weirdest things that defendants can do. you So I want to talk about some of those things. Did you have like much more about like like the the story in chief?
00:34:10
Speaker
No, not really. I mean, it's it's pretty straightforward. and It is a lot different than like a school shooting typically, because these are all adults, right? Correct. Yeah. And ah it's astounding that he is 62 years old.
00:34:28
Speaker
He is 62. At that time, he was 62 years old. He is still, I believe he's still in prison up in Pickaway Correctional. He would be 84 if I'm correct on this. There was a a scholarship established at Case Western Reserve University for Norman Wallace, by the way.
00:34:48
Speaker
I pulled some interesting letters from one of the appellate members. ah documents. Some of these are emails, some of these are like letters that were sent. This is all available to read in a 50-page document called Ohio v. Halter in the Supreme Court files.
00:35:03
Speaker
um The first one I'm going to pull from is actually from November of 2000.
00:35:08
Speaker
And it is from Biswanath Halder, Friday 17th, November of 2000, whose email address at the time was halder at engineer.com.
00:35:19
Speaker
Okay. It lists his address in Cleveland, his phone numbers, the whole thing. And he's sending this letter to the House Committee on the Judiciary addressed to the Honorable Henry J. Hyde.
00:35:34
Speaker
It says, Dear Congressman Hyde, the government created the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the early part of the 20th century to fight crime and corruption. However, instead of fighting crime, the FBI has recently been promoting crime.
00:35:47
Speaker
Sean Miller, an evil man, has broken into my Unix shell account at my Internet service provider on July 13th of 2000 and deleted all the files in my account. He then has a link that you can click here.
00:35:59
Speaker
It says, this crime falls within the jurisdiction of the fbi hence the following day the fourteenth of july two thousand i called the fbi office in cleveland ohio and i talked to mrs mary tropp she forwarded my call to mr charles sullivan an agent specializing in cyber crime Mr. Sullivan took down some of my personal information and said that he was going to call me back.
00:36:21
Speaker
I never heard back from him. On August 8th, I spoke with him again over the telephone. Mr. Sullivan asked me to write down all of the files that I had in my account, the day I created them, the amount of time it took me to create them, the amount of money I spent in creating them, and so on.
00:36:34
Speaker
He also wanted me to gather the receipts for all such expenditures. Imagine your home has just been burglarized and you call the police. The police ask you to itemize everything you had in your home, the date and the place of the purchase and their costs.
00:36:47
Speaker
Then you're asked to come to the police station with the receipts for all such purchases. The following day, the 9th of August, 2000, I sent an email to Mr. Charles Sullivan, which contained the details of the illegal break end of my Unix shell account and the malicious destruction of all of my files.
00:37:05
Speaker
Also, I attached the script of the entire account. i had more than 1,100 files in my account. I never heard from him again. Then, on August 22nd, I sent him a second email.
00:37:16
Speaker
Again, he did not respond. Subsequently, I tried to contact the agents in charge of the FBI office in Cleveland. Special agent in charge of the time would have been Van Harp. On September 20th, I left a telephone message for him. Mr. Harp never returned my call, but Mr. Sullivan finally did leave me a message on my answering machine. on the 21st of September, 2000. So the next day, the 22nd of September, 2000, returned his call.
00:37:41
Speaker
This time, Mr. Sullivan asked me to put an exact dollar value on the losses I suffered as a result of the malicious destruction of my account and to send him all that documentation. I said that no one could measure with exactitude the monetary value of an intellectual property.
00:37:56
Speaker
Nevertheless, i will try to come up with an approximate value. People do not have dollar bills stacked inside their computers. They have information, and the information I have in my computer is more valuable than virtually anyone else's.
00:38:08
Speaker
Just think for a moment that you walk into your office one morning and see nothing but the carpet, all the furniture, all of the documents you had in your desk drawers, the computers, including the files, the telephones, the water cooler, and everything else is gone.
00:38:20
Speaker
You call the FBI, and they ask you to put an exact dollar amount on everything you had in your office. On October the 5th, I sent a third email to Mr. Charles Sullivan of the FBI, in which I approximated, despite the lunacy of the attempt, the dollar value of the files in my Unix shell.
00:38:38
Speaker
Not to my surprise, I never heard from him. On October the 16th, I sent him an email for the fourth time, as usual. He kept quiet. Then on October 19th, I contacted the office of the congresswoman of my district, Stephanie Tubbs-Jones, and I talked to her district director, Mr. Lance Mason.
00:38:56
Speaker
The following day, I sent him an email giving the details of the inaction of the FBI in dealing with the illegal break-in of my Unix account. So that would have been October 20th of 2000. After several telephone calls to Mr. Masco on November of the 8th, he finally sent me an email reply to the effect that the FBI did not open my case because the value of my loss had not been adequately substantiated.
00:39:18
Speaker
In his words, the FBI uses discretion to bring cases with a value of loss exceeding $5,000.
00:39:26
Speaker
I do virtually anything and everything on the computer as I have created an action-oriented electronic network of Indians. I run the network through the internet. I have complete, I've taken courses at Case Western. I've done my homework on the computer.
00:39:41
Speaker
I develop my homepage on the computer. I look for employment over the internet. I am in the process of forming a business over the internet. I try to solve mankind's problems over the internet.
00:39:53
Speaker
Some of the documents I had in my Unixhell account at my ISP are irreplaceable. Apart from the destruction of documents, I have and will continue to suffer damages in many other respects. Such as strained relationships, inconvenience, wasted time, legal troubles, sleep disorders, business setbacks, etc.
00:40:10
Speaker
Hence, I am at a loss to how the FBI estimates the damages suffered to me to be under $5,000. Until the 1980s, there was no such thing as a cybercrime. In 1990, approximately 1 million people on our planet had access to the Internet.
00:40:24
Speaker
Today, hundreds of millions of people around the world have email addresses. Each day, this figure is growing by leaps and bounds. Along with the growth of the Internet use, cyber crime has been growing at an incredibly high rate. The FBI may want to ignore my case because I am a poor man.
00:40:39
Speaker
However, most criminals start out small and when unchecked, commit larger and larger crimes. Suppose a cyber criminal breaks into the computer system of the Pentagon and alter some code. As a result, a nuclear missile may get launched accidentally.
00:40:52
Speaker
You know that what is going to happen. Unlike the Second World War that lasted six years, the Third World War will last for less than six hours. In the ensuing process, anywhere from 50 to 90% of the human population will turn to ashes.
00:41:06
Speaker
Both you and I will be in that ma majority. Moreover, cybercriminal is not limited to committing crime in the United States only. He knows no geographic boundary. Suppose that such a criminal breaks into the computer system of the Federal Reserve Board of Uruguay and adds or deletes a zero in one of their monetary formulas.
00:41:24
Speaker
As a result, the economy of Uruguay may collapse. Such a criminal may break into the computer system of the Department of Health in Ukraine and destroy some of their information. Thousands of patients could die as a result of the break-in.
00:41:37
Speaker
Finally, one does not have to be in Cleveland to commit such crimes. A cybercriminal in Cairo, Calcutta, Canberra, or Copenhagen has precisely the same ability to cause irreparable damage to mankind without without even leaving the comfort of his home. In May 2000, a Filipino, after falling in love with everyone,
00:41:57
Speaker
spread the I love you virus. He messed up the world to such an extent that innumerable institutions around the world would close their business for one or more days. In the United States alone, the disruption of normal business cost the society tens of billions of dollars.
00:42:12
Speaker
The irony is that that Filipino never left his island home of the Philippines. To sum all this up, if the Federal Bureau of Investigation continues to promote cybercrime, as it has been recently doing,
00:42:23
Speaker
The day is not far away where one cyber criminal may push the entire human race back to the Stone Age. Very truly yours, Biswana Halder.
00:42:36
Speaker
So, I say all of this to say this guy sends email after email after email, and once he's convicted, he then starts writing the judge and the prosecutor and everyone else.
00:42:50
Speaker
He is a nightmare defendant. but He doesn't sound like a shooter, does he? He sounds like a person who's lost it. Yeah.
00:43:02
Speaker
Yeah, he does. And it's alarming, right? It's very alarming. i I still am not 100% sure of what occurred. right ah that I'm imagining like maybe his account was expired because he didn't go to school there anymore.
00:43:20
Speaker
yes And so they deleted him off the roster or something. I don't know. i don't really know what's happening there. Do you? No, I don't either. like it's It's such a weird thing, but like,
00:43:32
Speaker
Yeah. I just want to point out that like what we talked about, the 2003 Case Western Reserve University shooting and hostage taking takes place in May of 2003.
00:43:44
Speaker
He's been sending these letters for more than three years at that point. Right. It's not like he wasn't on the radar. Right. but and Well, I think that he wasn't because exactly like you said, he doesn't sound like somebody who's going to go...
00:44:00
Speaker
shoot up the place. But I don't even know, i mean, was he really doing something about anything? Or was it just his perception? i I don't know. he So his letters continue.
00:44:12
Speaker
It doesn't seem like it would be something worth killing anybody over. It sounds like maybe something occurred and he blamed the computer lab administrator, right? Yeah.
00:44:24
Speaker
But to me, he had graduated... In 99. 99. Okay, so four years. Prior to the incident, but a year before
Misunderstandings and Technology's Role
00:44:33
Speaker
he starts. i What I think happened, and this is just a guess based on all I've read on this, and i've read I've read hundreds of pages on it, even though we're presenting it and kind of ah encapsulates, because like some of it's just the legalese of it all. um um What I think happened was...
00:44:49
Speaker
I think he graduated and then after a certain period of time, his access to an email account lapsed. That's the only thing I could think of. Yeah, it's probably the case Western Reserve University email like was tied to his Unix account in some way to do... like what would have been like rudimentary early two-factor logins.
00:45:11
Speaker
So without access to that account, which had been essentially whatever, locked out or probably deleted, um he could no longer access his files when he, my guess, forgot his password.
00:45:26
Speaker
Or something, right? Yeah, he needed to access that email. But when if even if they were to rebuild that email for him, it probably would not be recognized correctly, or they might have a policy and procedure against doing that.
00:45:40
Speaker
So I think that's how we end up where we are. But it's just wild to me that it took Norman Wallace's life and wounded two other people. Right, and it's it's alarming because it...
00:45:51
Speaker
I feel like there was a skew in perspective here, a lack of understanding here. i don't know if you've seen anything where like Sean Miller actually like has a ding, ding, ding moment where he realizes what's going on.
00:46:05
Speaker
haven't. I doubt very seriously. He even realizes what was even being, I mean, he was being sued, right? It was being sued. But it had been dismissed, I think. It was dismissed. and i It was either dismissed shortly after this incident or it was dismissed and, like, it caused this.
00:46:25
Speaker
I was going to say i think it was just missed before. And I think that that, but essentially we all know, right, that you have to have backups of your stuff. Correct. And obviously this was before the cloud, right? Yeah. Obviously.
00:46:41
Speaker
um And a simple backup would have really changed a whole lot in this situation. But I don't think that there was any sort of, um,
00:46:53
Speaker
like Case Western University conspiracy or plan against this particular guy? Do you? I mean, just doesn't have to make sense that that would be what happened. But he was sort of, i don't know, maybe in his own echo chamber. ah Whether he didn't back it up or he lost his password or just didn't have access anymore or didn't plan for it or whatever, i think no matter what the sole responsibility of the like the failure to have these files probably rests with this one of the howler.
00:47:25
Speaker
Right. And I was thinking about that because it is that, so that's where we start with this whole situation, right? yeah It's is the loss of this, these files and everything. And the only thing I can think, which I imagine all the other people he was sending, communicating, he was trying to communicate with, we're thinking was,
00:47:45
Speaker
Well, how could anybody possibly destroy your files, right? You should have those in a place where nobody can get to them. and Or at least a copy, right, of them somewhere, if they're that important. And I think that he, it maybe escaped him that that it wasn't actually anybody else's fault. It was his own fault.
00:48:07
Speaker
Oh, 100%. I mean, so I pulled one last letter. I'm not going to beat people to death with this. there' a lot online if you want to go read about it. Most of it is the state of Ohio versus Halter.
00:48:19
Speaker
This last letter kind of like ties into what you were just saying. This is from January 21st, 2006. So this is after everything. But I gave you one of the first letters I'm giving you, like one of the last letters I pulled.
00:48:34
Speaker
It says, Honorable Peggy Foley-Jones, who is a judge in Ohio in the Cleveland Court of Common Pleas. It says, Dear Judge Jones, and it references his CR number or his criminal court record number.
00:48:46
Speaker
It says, At the end of the guilt phase of the trial on December 13, 2005, I wanted to take the stand and explain to the court the events that led up to the incident of May 9, 2003.
00:48:58
Speaker
My attorneys prevented me from doing so. The verdict could not have been any worse than being convicted on all counts. I provided the defense attorneys with a list of of over 60 witnesses who, under proper examination, could expose the truth.
00:49:11
Speaker
As of yesterday, the defense produced only eight of those witnesses. Hence, I insist on taking the stand and explain to the court the events that took place in the three years preceding May 9, 2003. Yours very truly.
00:49:23
Speaker
yours very truly He has a very interesting signature too, by the way. And he copies in lawyers at the bottom of this letter. He still thinks there's some kind of explanation for this horribly dysregulated or unregulated mood disorder that allowed him to think it's perfectly okay to go to a school and start shooting.
00:49:50
Speaker
Right, for any reason, right? For any reason. There's literally nothing that's going to make any of that okay. It gives some perspective. There was a little bit of, um and not really misled, but I think that if every if he had said, I'm going to go shoot this place up, if you guys don't do something about it, I think that somebody probably would have taken action. yeah but Essentially, i find myself going, well, nobody even understood what he was talking about to begin with.
00:50:19
Speaker
So they were going, i think that maybe Sullivan was trying to see if there was something they could do. Yeah. But at the end of the day, he's going, well, this guy just didn't have his file saved properly, right? Right. Or something. Right. And and that's why, i mean, I do realize a lot of times nobody's like completely straight. Like he was he said that he was just being ignored. But I think they were really all going, yeah, so this isn't like anybody else's problem, dude.
00:50:48
Speaker
Well, i so I dug into the letters and the letters keep going for years. I read letters to different lawyers. um I read letters after the appellate documents. He gets, like, he changes up his um sort of M.O. in his letters after a while, and he starts making, like, these massive bullet lists, and, like, he keeps accusing the people at Case Western Reserve University Computer Lab of these felonies and federal felonies.
00:51:17
Speaker
I'm not saying he's completely wrong. I'm saying none of that justifies murder or essentially terrorism. Do you ever see anything that shows anything except them possibly him using something he used while he was a taking classes there and then it not being accessible any longer?
00:51:41
Speaker
I don't see evidence of it, but like the letters are so strange. I, I read enough of them. I've read hundreds of pages at this point. I will say, i wondered like, was there something to this where it was slightly more malicious than we realized? Not from the perspective, do I think they like did something to him on purpose, but did they at some point go, you know what?
00:52:11
Speaker
i I did delete it. I deleted it because it was like taking up space on the server and my boss said that's not allowed. So I had to delete it. So I deleted it. But it wasn't anything that he was unaware of.
00:52:22
Speaker
Like we warned him 50 times by emailing him to let him know that his account was going to be Well, I mean, it would be like, so again, i my brain immediately tries to make sense of nonsensical things, right? Yep, same here. And all I can think is of like my old college email address, right Like if i if I had something that was like very important to me, like i don't expect my old college email address to still be working. By the time this happened, I was already out of college, right? Right. So I can't even imagine um thinking to myself even back then
00:53:03
Speaker
that I would be able to access anything afterwards. Yeah. And so I guess I'm just, that's where my mindset is. It's sort of like, well, you should have taken a thumb drive with you on like your last day of, ah that that you had access to the computer lab and gotten everything, which I can't even remember back then. Did we have thumb drives? I don't even know. You should have emailed them to yourself or you should have had them on your Had them somewhere besides there Yeah, i think 2003 would have been this time period. like i i remember cutting movies at that time, and I think I had to physically take like a hard drive in, like a big, massive like Western digital hard drive in to do stuff.
00:53:46
Speaker
Well, I had some. um It's really funny because they were very small and very expensive. I had some like Sony... Oh, yes. Memories. Yes. some china But they held so little.
00:53:59
Speaker
They did. They held so little. And it was really hard to ah transfer big amounts of information back then, right?
00:54:10
Speaker
um you but We burn a lot of CDs, right? Yes. Or DVD and then DVDs, right? But it wasn't. i It was such a slow morph, I can't even remember. But I do remember I had some sticks that you could use. And they were like gold, man. I mean, they were so expensive. And we had a separate little case that we kept them in so they'd be in like pristine condition. Of course, everything's changed now. People have like thumb drives on their key chains now, right? Yeah.
00:54:41
Speaker
Which is crazy. But you know that kind of thing... I can only imagine that it just blows my mind. um And ultimately, i think that Noma, I don't think that anybody at that school had any sort of vendetta against him.
00:54:59
Speaker
If they did say, oh, I can't leave that on there because, you know, we we have a policy. I don't know how big that school is, but I assume it goes through, it cycles through students just like every other university, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:13
Speaker
And anything that they do for one student, they'd have to do for all the students, especially at that point in time And it they probably did it to everybody. Like, everybody who had used their Unix account that was linked to the school or whatever that had stuff there. I mean, I'm sure his wasn't the only one that got deleted four years later or whatever, right? Yeah.
00:55:37
Speaker
It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I always hate it when it's like operator error to begin with, right? Yes. And it was senseless. and it So this is all senseless.
00:55:49
Speaker
I do believe it's operator error, but this is the challenge i was going to throw out there to people, particularly because these are our holiday episodes. Okay, if you go out there and you pull up like one of the documents that says like Ohio versus Halder, Supreme Court of Ohio, if you know someone who is a computer engineer, because one of the problems I ran into trying to understand...
00:56:12
Speaker
Bituana Halder's side of the story. And I'm not saying he ever should have done any of this. But one of the problems I ran into is even though I've read a lot of what he's saying, I do not understand what he's describing.
00:56:26
Speaker
So if you happen to be in contact with someone who has been a computer engineer for around, I would say it has to be at least 20 years, maybe more like 25 years. And you pull this up and you see something in here that like is verifiably something Case Western Reserve University did or like makes you wonder, and you want to send me a message at truecrimexs at gmail.com, I will look further into it and I will get someone involved who knows more about this than me.
00:56:56
Speaker
But the bottom line is, from what I can read of him, I don't know if he's having trouble presenting it or if he's having trouble understanding that he's wrong.
00:57:07
Speaker
I don't know which one it is. I'm going to go with I think he's having trouble understanding he's wrong. But again, I'm open to any sort of um ah guidance elsewhere. But, you know, during that time, which we lived it, we were sort of on the edge of it as far as technology evolving, right? Yep.
00:57:26
Speaker
um you have to think and of it in terms of back then, right? And that that's hard to do because everything has changed so much. I can think back. I have, you know, I do have like points in time that I can sort of remember. Like, for example, when I was in high school, we learned how to do word processing, but we didn't have internet access at school. Right. right And then in college, um I can remember...
00:57:56
Speaker
you know, we we did have access to computer labs. um they' But I guess we could have possibly had some storage space, but it wasn't a great idea to use a computer lab for anything that you weren't going to, like, immediately print out and turn in or whatever. Like, you I wouldn't have had anything, um like, stored there. And i had for the most part, I had my own laptop that I took to school lately.
00:58:25
Speaker
and And we definitely didn't have Wi-Fi yet. It was still like dial-up. Plug-in, dial-up, yeah. um And I can sort of think through that, right?
00:58:37
Speaker
But as far, I mean, he's talking about Unix accounts, which is like a, you know, it's a developer's ah login, right? It would have been, yeah. And in my mind, all I can think is while he was in the program, he had access to use that type of stuff. And then probably just as a procedural thing, after so much time, they were notified and the account, they lost access to the account. That's the only thing I can think of.
00:59:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's how I
Reflections on the Incident's Impact
00:59:10
Speaker
pictured it too. I mean, I remember... so couple of things on this, and I swear I'll wrap it up because I know I'm going long at this point. But I remember different computers from the 90s were very complex to use. I remember getting on the internet a couple different ways, and that included Prodigy and AOL, as well as like a mainframe at college.
00:59:31
Speaker
And I took computer science courses like end of high school and end of college. like I learned... learned Fortran and I learned ah C++. plus plus I learned all of the things that you learn on the way to deciding if maybe you want to be a programmer. And like I it it wasn't for me.
00:59:50
Speaker
um i found a lot of it to be slightly boring, but I remember losing entire computers where I had written hours and hours writing. like journals and I think ah back then I would have been writing stage plays and maybe a screenplay or two. But I remember losing entire computer hard drives just based on the fact that like it was no longer accessible and how frustrating it was. But at the time it wasn't internet based, it certainly wasn't Unix based.
01:00:17
Speaker
It was on me that I lost my WordPerfect access or I lost my Windows 95 access or whatever it was that I lost. um So I never would have done anything about it. But it was I remember how frustrating it was that have my creative stuff like go out the window.
01:00:32
Speaker
Right. and it was ah there was a learning curve for just sort of normal people using technology. There's still a learning curve to this day. i mean, we do have the cloud now, which seems to be pretty automatic and people can usually retrieve things, right? Yeah. um Because they're floating in the air somewhere.
01:00:49
Speaker
But here, it just seems like, it just seems very... um It's very frustrating that that happened to him to begin with. But, you know, if he held a gun at somebody's head that day and said, if you don't give it back to me, I'm going to kill this person, I'm still not sure they could have done anything about it. No, I'm pretty sure they couldn't have. that' Which is why it just it just seems like there's a huge gap in understanding. yeah And so this whole thing was completely senseless. A young man died ah because an older man thought...
01:01:25
Speaker
A wrong had happened to him and it would have helped everybody for everybody to have understood it better. right Yeah. It's very sad. And this is kind of on the fringes of our hostage taking for the holidays because I will say this, this would have been the loneliest hostage taking ever because he's pretty much just wandering around the building shooting at things and And everyone is hidden from him.
01:01:53
Speaker
And, like, it's really just him and the SWAT team and this cat and mouse game. It's less of a hostage taking. I just thought it was a fascinating story. and i Well, they there were 100 people in the building that were held hostage, even though a lot of them didn't even encounter the gunman. They knew that something was happening. Right.
01:02:12
Speaker
And I don't know if you've said it or not, but ultimately he was found hiding in a fifth floor storage closet. Right. Right. So that's new, right? yeahp Yep.
01:02:25
Speaker
Typically, you don't have the SWAT team encountering the perpetrator hiding. Correct. And i can only imagine if if this guy's perspective and mentality is where I imagine it was like, he was probably scared to death after the first, after he shot um Norman Wallace, right? He was probably scared to death. Like, what am I going to do now? Of course, he also, i'm not sure why he keeps some on for so long justifying, except that
01:02:59
Speaker
You know, these personality disorders don't go away when you go to prison, right No, they don't. And like this could be any number of relatively benign things, treatable things with therapy or or medicine or whatever, that it had had advanced and sort of festered for so long that this is the end result of it. um Or it could have been something more violent, and I just am not seeing the full picture because we don't have a great picture of Halder except through his own words and kind of how...
01:03:31
Speaker
Like the the court recorded everything here. um Even the actual information about the hostage taking itself in that day is sort of limited because like I said, there was sort of an isolation and you described it as him hiding in the closet. And I couldn't help but think as I'm hearing all of this, did he hide in the closet most of that time?
01:03:53
Speaker
i I think he might have. yeah um But because of the way things kind of went down, I have no idea. But that was an odd ending, um especially since the only casualty was the very first person he shot and the other two injuries, I assume, were shortly thereafter. yeah And now they did say a lot of things were shot, right? So perhaps he wasn't a good shot. I'm not really sure. I can never figure out, even in like movies where it's completely fiction, I can never figure out how so many bullets can be flying and so little people get hit, right? That's relatively accurate for health. I i think people get hit more in movies than they do in real life.
01:04:36
Speaker
Well, and see, that makes it even weirder to me. But, I mean, I get it. But it's just not a good idea to be shooting people. He's exactly where he needs to be. i He probably should, you know, maybe he did get help. Maybe that's why he stopped with all the letters. I don't know. But it is a very sad um situation. But the thing that really stuck with me was Norman Wallace being at school one day, like, just popping in and then suddenly having been shot. Yeah.
01:05:05
Speaker
And I think about things like that a lot because you never know what's going to happen in life. And those are some of the most, terror that's why it's a like a terrorist act, right? Because it is so terrifying. is absolutely terrifying.
01:05:19
Speaker
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01:05:30
Speaker
It helps us get noticed in the crowd. This is True Crime XS. s
01:07:34
Speaker
True Crime Access is brought to you by John and Meg. It's written, produced, edited, and posted by John and Meg. You can always support True Crime Access through Patreon.com, or if you have a story you'd like them to cover, you can reach them at TrueCrimeAccess.com.
01:07:53
Speaker
Thank you for joining us.