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Ep 137: Gomez! Lots of Gomez!
164 Plays1 year ago
George Gomez joins us to answer John Wick Pinball questions like: Where's the guns? Does Disney own Stern? Why is Stern so greedy? All those and many more this episode
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Transcript
Introduction and Promotions
00:00:07
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast.
00:00:09
Speaker
We're on episode one 37.
00:00:11
Speaker
I am Josh Roop with me.
00:00:12
Speaker
My co-captain as always Scott Larson and Scott's new game release.
00:00:17
Speaker
New game release.
00:00:17
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:00:18
Speaker
So if you are looking to pick up your John wick, go ahead and reach out to Zach mini at flipping out pinball.
00:00:24
Speaker
He can definitely hook you up and I am excited to see where this game's going.
00:00:29
Speaker
Certainly get it on the ground floor.
00:00:31
Speaker
Certainly possibly still have some L's premiums and pros you can get on the list.
00:00:36
Speaker
And if you're looking for any other game, reach out to Zach and Nicole Mani at Flippin' Out Pinball and they can help you out.
00:00:42
Speaker
Definitely.
Guest Introduction: George Gomez
00:00:43
Speaker
We have a very special episode today.
00:00:45
Speaker
I know we just recorded a couple days ago, but with John Wick releasing and kind of a media push for this, we were able to have George Gomez come on.
00:00:55
Speaker
And this man has pretty much shaped the direction of pinball, at least modern pinball, within the last 30 years directly.
00:01:01
Speaker
And he's been in the industry for about 46 years and
00:01:04
Speaker
I mean, without George, I don't know if we'd have, we wouldn't have classics like Monster Bash, Lord of the Rings, you know, just these games that have defined what people want in their homes over the last 30 plus years.
00:01:16
Speaker
So thanks for coming on, George.
00:01:17
Speaker
How are you doing?
00:01:19
Speaker
Hey, he also runs a lot of things, a Stern Pinball, just FYI.
00:01:23
Speaker
Just FYI.
00:01:24
Speaker
Thanks a lot, guys.
00:01:27
Speaker
Glad to come on.
00:01:30
Speaker
We live in interesting times.
00:01:32
Speaker
Absolutely,
John Wick Game Launch
00:01:33
Speaker
yeah.
00:01:34
Speaker
Yeah, so, yeah, the last couple of days since we launched WIC has been a bit of a whirlwind.
00:01:42
Speaker
You know, game launches are, first of all, they're a buzz of activity in so many ways, right?
00:01:49
Speaker
You've got the design team is, there's a lot of anxiety about how the game's going to be received, but they have a lot of responsibilities relative to, like, you know, I'm in my office here at Stern Pinball, and
00:02:02
Speaker
100 feet that way, there's an assembly line cranking out John Wicks.
00:02:08
Speaker
Those guys have got to interact with manufacturing, check games, make sure the games are being built right, teach people how to build them, all this kind of stuff.
00:02:21
Speaker
At the same time, we're dealing with
00:02:23
Speaker
the PR for the game, launching the game, all that kind of stuff.
00:02:27
Speaker
So it's been, and yeah, I mean, it's just been, we haven't stopped.
00:02:36
Speaker
Tonight at four o'clock, tune in, we're live streaming the game.
00:02:41
Speaker
And I think hopefully that will answer a lot of questions for people.
00:02:48
Speaker
Now we are recording this, so they're probably not going to get this in time.
00:02:51
Speaker
However, tell us when that is and we'll shoot it out on our socials.
00:02:57
Speaker
Yeah, it'll be on the Stern YouTube channel for sure.
00:03:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:02
Speaker
And today at four o'clock?
00:03:04
Speaker
Yep.
00:03:05
Speaker
Central Standard Time.
00:03:08
Speaker
CST, so they'll start, you know, those guys will start.
00:03:11
Speaker
I'm going to join them when we free up.
00:03:13
Speaker
I'm going to walk into the stream.
00:03:15
Speaker
Perfect.
00:03:15
Speaker
Okay, George, we want to...
Game Philosophy and Themes
00:03:18
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:18
Speaker
So we know the new game that you guys have released is John wick.
00:03:22
Speaker
So can you walk us through John wick and tell us the, the philosophy behind what you're trying to accomplish in this game and what you're trying to offer the player and the owner in having a John wick game?
00:03:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:37
Speaker
So, I mean, honestly, the,
00:03:39
Speaker
The franchise, you know, the essence of the franchise is, you know, this assassin, John Wick, and all of the things that happened to him.
00:03:52
Speaker
Sort of, it's a sort of a revenge and redemption game.
00:03:55
Speaker
You know, he's a guy that's retired and he's being brought back in.
00:03:59
Speaker
The films are incredibly popular.
00:04:01
Speaker
So it's an action franchise.
00:04:04
Speaker
And we decided, hey, let's do this.
00:04:07
Speaker
The game pretty much mirrors the events of the films.
00:04:12
Speaker
We have film footage from all four films.
00:04:15
Speaker
There's been, as you guys know, lots of controversy relative to the gun issue on WIC.
00:04:22
Speaker
So I'll tell you a couple.
00:04:23
Speaker
I mean, I'll tell you I'm gladly
00:04:26
Speaker
I'm glad for, I'm happy for this opportunity because I'm, you know, it's not, it's, it's much easier to discuss these things in this forum than it is to constantly be answering Facebook posts about, you know, speculation about what it is and what it isn't.
00:04:41
Speaker
Right.
00:04:43
Speaker
But at the crux of this matter, because there's a bunch of guys out there going, well, I see John Wick toys that have guns and I see video games that have guns and John Wick video games.
00:04:55
Speaker
And how come you guys can't have guns?
00:04:56
Speaker
And so at the crux of this is the fact that every one of those toys comes with a disclaimer that says, you know, 18 and over.
00:05:06
Speaker
The video games come from a rating system with a rating system.
00:05:11
Speaker
So when Lionsgate asked us, is there a pinball rating system?
00:05:15
Speaker
We said no.
00:05:16
Speaker
And where do the games go?
00:05:18
Speaker
Well, some percentage of the games go into commercial locations.
00:05:22
Speaker
That means that anyone can interact with them.
00:05:24
Speaker
Anyone can walk by them, 10-year-old or 5-year-old, whatever.
00:05:28
Speaker
And so they said, OK, you guys fall into the all ages category.
00:05:33
Speaker
So the all-ages
Controversy and Licensing Challenges
00:05:34
Speaker
category means that we have to adhere to certain guidelines, and those guidelines are we don't want to see any guns on any of the art on the exterior surfaces of the game.
00:05:44
Speaker
Now, once you press start, because there's a lot of confusion about this, because I've said, you know, we've got all the gunplay in the films because we've got film footage for the films.
00:05:55
Speaker
So, you know, how is it possible that you can't have guns
00:06:00
Speaker
2D art of John Wick with a weapon, but you can have video footage from the films of people getting shot up.
00:06:09
Speaker
So the point is that once you hit start, you've made a conscious choice to interact with this thing.
00:06:17
Speaker
And so now if you're a 10-year-old, maybe your mom wasn't looking and you did it, but the reality is that mom is supposed to have given you permission to do this.
00:06:26
Speaker
So it's not any kind of a political statement on behalf of Stern Pinball relative to guns, even though that conversation has spun off into the bigger conversation that's happening in our country about guns, right?
00:06:41
Speaker
I'll tell you that, you know, in 2017 when I did Deadpool,
00:06:49
Speaker
Marvel said to me, all the weapons in Deadpool must be fantasy blasters.
00:06:57
Speaker
Even though, like when you look at the NECA Deadpool, which I have, which Jeremy Packer gave me when we finished the project, right?
00:07:04
Speaker
He's got real weapons.
00:07:05
Speaker
He's got replicas of real weapons, right?
00:07:08
Speaker
And so, but in the case of the Pimbala machine, and all these licensors, by the way, the common threat is they have a sensitivity to how weapons are portrayed.
00:07:19
Speaker
But the rules are different.
00:07:21
Speaker
So in the case of Marvel, they said, you know, as long as our fantasy blasters were okay, you know, and, and Jeremy drew fantasy blasters, go look at a Deadpool game.
00:07:31
Speaker
He's got weapons.
00:07:32
Speaker
They just don't look like, you know, a Glock, you know, a nine millimeter.
00:07:36
Speaker
So, um, yeah.
00:07:40
Speaker
There's been a lot of questions about Bond.
00:07:43
Speaker
And we said, Bond's got weapons.
00:07:45
Speaker
Yes, Bond's got weapons.
00:07:47
Speaker
That licensor said to me, you cannot create like a Walter PPK.
00:07:52
Speaker
Bond's gone.
00:07:53
Speaker
You cannot create a toy.
00:07:55
Speaker
You cannot create new art that doesn't come from the film archives of James Bond showing him with a weapon.
00:08:03
Speaker
So it was like, you know, if Kevin O'Connor had a little corner piece in the play field and he needed to draw a bond with a gun, the answer was no, you can't do that.
00:08:12
Speaker
So every licensor deals with it however they want to deal with it.
00:08:18
Speaker
We have to comply.
00:08:19
Speaker
And in the case of Lionsgate, we fell into this all ages category.
00:08:24
Speaker
And by the way, it's interesting, right?
00:08:28
Speaker
The game ships with a default plastic for the weapons crate that doesn't have any guns in it, but there's one that has guns in it in the cash box.
00:08:37
Speaker
Okay.
00:08:38
Speaker
Do you want to take it out?
00:08:39
Speaker
So you can modify it yourself.
00:08:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's four screws.
00:08:43
Speaker
You put it in there.
00:08:45
Speaker
So we have to walk the line to what the licensor wants us to do.
00:08:54
Speaker
I'll tell you that it did surprise us.
00:08:57
Speaker
it took us by surprise because we never assumed that it, you know, the, the essence of the franchise is John Wick, you know, this renowned assassin, you know, legendary assassin, and he can turn anything into a weapon, a pencil, a car, you know, you know, you name it.
00:09:17
Speaker
Right.
00:09:18
Speaker
And he's got, he is constantly, you know, you know, he shoots a guy three times, you know, so the,
00:09:27
Speaker
So when we started working on the project, we never imagined that, oh, this is like a thing.
00:09:34
Speaker
And I think it was like there was a piece of Randy Martinez art that got submitted and he had weapons in it and that started the conversation.
00:09:43
Speaker
And I was like, oh, no, no, you guys are all ages.
00:09:46
Speaker
You got to fit into this category.
00:09:48
Speaker
So we did take a step back and said, what does this mean to the game?
00:09:53
Speaker
Right.
00:09:53
Speaker
And the reality is that, I mean, this entire conversation has taken us by surprise because we've been playing the game for 14 months.
00:10:01
Speaker
So, so we know what the game is.
00:10:03
Speaker
We know how the game feels and we stopped thinking about it way back when, you know, whenever it's, you know, whatever it was, two, three months into the project, whenever the problem came up, we just sort of like said, we took, we analyzed it.
00:10:15
Speaker
We said, you know, what does this mean to us?
00:10:18
Speaker
And, and by the way, there have been licenses that we have abandoned when we said we can't do that justice.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yeah.
Game Development Insights
00:10:24
Speaker
We had famously, most famously, Hunger Games.
00:10:28
Speaker
We looked at Hunger Games and we said, if we can't do this, we can't do this, we can't do this.
00:10:33
Speaker
We can't really do it.
00:10:35
Speaker
We had an honest conversation with the licensor and we said, I don't think it's good for you and I don't think it's good for us.
00:10:42
Speaker
I think at this point, we're going to part ways and put this on the shelf and move on.
00:10:49
Speaker
But with WIC, we looked at him and said, well, we've got all this film footage.
00:10:54
Speaker
And once you get into the game, that's what's really, I'm not looking at the side of the cabinet.
00:10:58
Speaker
I'm not reaching over to like, I'm not noticing that, oh, there isn't a,
00:11:06
Speaker
You know, there's an epistle on the back glass.
00:11:08
Speaker
I mean, so it's like, so it's not, the very first thing is everybody jumped to the conclusion there was some sort of political statement relative to guns from Stern Pinball.
00:11:20
Speaker
It's not.
00:11:21
Speaker
Um, you know, uh, both Tim and I, we were joking.
00:11:25
Speaker
I just, I told Joel the same thing.
00:11:27
Speaker
I said, Tim would drive.
00:11:28
Speaker
I would, this totally took us such by surprise.
00:11:32
Speaker
We're both Eagle scouts.
00:11:33
Speaker
You know, we came up in scouts and, and, you know, there wasn't a summer camp in America that didn't have a 30 odd six rifle range.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker
I mean, Eagle Scout too.
00:11:45
Speaker
There was a marksmanship merit badge.
00:11:47
Speaker
Same here.
00:11:47
Speaker
I think Tim's got it, you know?
00:11:49
Speaker
So, so it's kind of like one of those things where you go, you know, and we're sitting there going, Oh man.
00:11:54
Speaker
It's like, I spent hours on the range.
00:11:56
Speaker
I learned how to shoot.
00:11:57
Speaker
I know my way around weapons.
00:11:58
Speaker
It was like, but it's like, I never, it's,
00:12:02
Speaker
I want to assure you, it's like, we don't, it's just not how we think.
00:12:06
Speaker
You know, we, you know, we said, the licensor said that we analyzed where we were with the game.
00:12:11
Speaker
We said, yeah, you know, the game's pretty good.
00:12:13
Speaker
And it's like, I don't, I don't know.
00:12:16
Speaker
It's like, not going to miss it.
00:12:18
Speaker
Well, to summarize, it seems like you're saying that guns are in the game.
00:12:22
Speaker
I mean, that, that is essential to John Wick.
00:12:25
Speaker
And so,
00:12:28
Speaker
If I can summarize it and say, you said, well, guns are still in the game.
00:12:33
Speaker
This is still John Wick.
00:12:34
Speaker
He's an assassin.
00:12:34
Speaker
He is killing people.
00:12:36
Speaker
However, they're not going to be incorporated in the art package, but they're still going to be incorporated in the gameplay.
00:12:42
Speaker
Is that fair to say?
00:12:43
Speaker
That's correct.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:45
Speaker
So, I mean, it's like sort of, the problem is that the conversation is
00:12:49
Speaker
went out of control pretty quick.
00:12:51
Speaker
Sure.
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:51
Speaker
And as much as, I mean, if you look at my posts, I said it in my post.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:56
Speaker
See, there's plenty of gunplay and, you know, we're not changing any of that.
00:13:00
Speaker
Right.
00:13:01
Speaker
It's just simply, you know, it's like, yes, there are no illustrations of him on the back glass.
00:13:09
Speaker
And, you know, the plastic with the weapons, crate guns is in the cash box and, you know, take all four screws and put them in, put it in.
00:13:17
Speaker
So one thought I've had, because I know back in the 90s, I can't remember, it was Moral Combat or Area 51, but they used to put like 18 plus on the cabinet.
00:13:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:27
Speaker
Have you guys ever considered doing that to get around this issue?
00:13:30
Speaker
We just talked about that based on this issue, right?
00:13:36
Speaker
We just talked about how do we approach this so that, you know, and I have to tell you that we stopped thinking about the problem
00:13:46
Speaker
You know, 20 minutes after, you know, that was, you know, whatever it was, nine months ago or something, you know, we stopped thinking about it.
00:13:55
Speaker
And we said, again, I was like, yeah.
00:13:57
Speaker
I mean, I remember rolling in the studio one day and somebody said, no guns in John Wick.
00:14:00
Speaker
I said, what do you mean?
00:14:01
Speaker
And then they explained it to me and I was like, okay, well, let's think about that.
00:14:06
Speaker
And so we, you know, and I sat with Tim and Elliot and I said, what do you guys think about this?
00:14:13
Speaker
I think we're okay.
00:14:14
Speaker
I'm going to do this, that, the other thing.
00:14:16
Speaker
It's like there's so much interesting
00:14:23
Speaker
fiction in the, you know, that's part of the franchise, right?
00:14:27
Speaker
The notion of the administration, the factions, the high table, the contracts, all that stuff's in the game.
00:14:34
Speaker
And so, you know, there's, and there's some really cool stuff like related to Insider Connected, you know, you're going to get in-app notifications about new contracts and that there's all of that stuff persisted.
00:14:47
Speaker
So we were like, yeah, I don't know.
00:14:49
Speaker
That's pretty cool.
00:14:50
Speaker
Just the way it is.
00:14:51
Speaker
So it's kind of like, you know, I mean, I'm not, you really want me to pull the plug on this because I can't draw guns on the side of the cabinet or on the back glass.
00:15:02
Speaker
So the other question too, because this has come up in the conversation and it's made me curious because we know that you've had a relationship with Disney over the years because you're doing Marvel product and whatnot.
00:15:11
Speaker
But some of the narrative has been you guys are appeasing the Disney overlords because they somehow control what Stern decides to do.
00:15:20
Speaker
I doubt there's any truth to that.
00:15:21
Speaker
But can you give us maybe some insight to the relationship and if Disney is involved with you guys at all?
00:15:28
Speaker
No.
00:15:28
Speaker
I mean, the relationship is licensor to licensee.
00:15:32
Speaker
So basically, when we do it, you know, the way – so I believe strongly that –
00:15:42
Speaker
the designers, the developers, the people, the artists, the people that are working on the franchise, it should be a thing they really want to work on.
00:15:51
Speaker
Just based on my own experience, right?
00:15:53
Speaker
It's like, I don't want to make games about things I'm not interested in.
00:15:57
Speaker
So now I have a studio with 50 people in it.
00:16:01
Speaker
I have another 30 people on the outside.
00:16:03
Speaker
I don't, I can't always match everyone with everything.
00:16:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:07
Speaker
But whenever possible, I try to get people working on things they want to work on.
00:16:13
Speaker
So there are some people in the studio that wouldn't have raised their hands for John Wick.
00:16:16
Speaker
There are also some people in the studio that wouldn't have raised their hands for Jaws.
00:16:20
Speaker
or whatever, right?
00:16:21
Speaker
So I try to get, I try to match people, but the licenses that we pick are, they're company-wide decisions based on what we think is gonna be popular, what's gonna appeal to an audience.
00:16:37
Speaker
A lot of times, most of the time, it's the broadest audience.
00:16:41
Speaker
Sometimes it's a niche audience.
00:16:42
Speaker
WIC is actually a niche audience for us, as opposed to JAWS.
00:16:47
Speaker
Right.
00:16:48
Speaker
And so you can imagine that even with the sanitized artwork, there are some people that aren't going to bring work into their house.
00:16:57
Speaker
And, you know, there are, there are other people that, you know, might not bring whatever Deadpool into their house, you know, maybe the, so I think, is there a relationship?
00:17:11
Speaker
There's a relationship from the standpoint that after you've done, you know,
00:17:15
Speaker
however many Marvel titles we we've done, they actually like us and they say, you know, Hey, you know, would you guys want to work on this or that?
00:17:23
Speaker
That's really the, that's the extent of the relationship.
00:17:27
Speaker
Now, Marvel obviously is, has gained, you know, some trust in us.
00:17:33
Speaker
So we get, you know, cause we've done justice to a lot of Marvel properties.
00:17:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:39
Speaker
Um, and when you have a new license tour, a lot of times that's a challenge.
00:17:44
Speaker
Because they don't know you.
00:17:46
Speaker
They don't know what you're about.
00:17:47
Speaker
They don't know if you can do this justice.
00:17:50
Speaker
Bond was like that.
00:17:51
Speaker
It's sort of you're only going to do the it's not like you can there are a lot of different bond properties.
00:18:01
Speaker
You're going to do a bond property and you're doing bond.
00:18:04
Speaker
So that was a learning process for them and a learning process for us.
00:18:13
Speaker
A lot of people, every time we tackle a new licensor, there's a learning curve for both parties.
00:18:24
Speaker
We have to learn what are their limits, where are the guardrails relative to these guys, and what are the touch points that they're going to be sensitive about.
00:18:38
Speaker
The gun thing, Bob, by the way, how guns are portrayed has been universally sensitive with licensors, like I said, all the way back to Deadpool.
00:18:47
Speaker
On Bond, there were sensibilities, and the only leeway
Theme Selection and Market Considerations
00:18:54
Speaker
was the fact that, hey, if you're using a Bond poster from 1962 from the Dr. No sell sheet or something, it's okay if he's got a weapon, but don't go drawing one.
00:19:07
Speaker
Okay, so what I want to know about as Stern, when you're looking at licenses, or I guess if you're looking at themes to do, what goes into making a theme a good product for pinball?
00:19:23
Speaker
Because we know that there are tons of things that sell wildly worldwide, but may not actually mix with a pinball audience.
00:19:31
Speaker
So what do you consider when you're trying to generate these titles?
00:19:37
Speaker
So not everything translates.
00:19:40
Speaker
I'll tell you that, so, you know, I'm the chief creative officer.
00:19:45
Speaker
So clearly my voice is a lot, you know, carries a lot of weight relative to the stuff we select, right?
00:19:53
Speaker
And what I'm bringing to it is the fact that I've actually experienced making a game, right?
00:20:00
Speaker
A lot of the other people in the room
00:20:02
Speaker
You know, they've experienced selling a game.
00:20:04
Speaker
They've experienced marketing a game.
00:20:06
Speaker
They've experienced the business aspects of a game.
00:20:10
Speaker
They've experienced manufacturing a game, but they haven't experienced making a game, so they don't know or they have a different perspective on it.
00:20:18
Speaker
So the conversation is always, first of all, does anybody, you know, will anybody in the studio actually, you know, we're presented with licenses from all kinds of people call us with licenses.
00:20:31
Speaker
And now, because of who we are, you know, the largest pinball machine company in the world by far, and we have a blue chip portfolio of licensors, right?
00:20:44
Speaker
Unlike anybody else's.
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:46
Speaker
We've worked with everybody.
00:20:47
Speaker
And so...
00:20:49
Speaker
People look at our products and they say, I want them to make our thing.
00:20:52
Speaker
Right.
00:20:53
Speaker
So people are constantly calling us.
00:20:54
Speaker
Video games call, video game companies call us every day.
00:20:58
Speaker
It's just different people are just constantly lobbying us.
00:21:02
Speaker
So we take the list and some combination of, you know, we go to, you know, we send people a licensing show and they get pitched at the licensing show.
00:21:12
Speaker
And.
00:21:13
Speaker
we bring all this information back and we say, what does anybody care about?
00:21:17
Speaker
Like, what is, you know, and I was telling Joel that one of the things that you have to remember is that
00:21:25
Speaker
Me and my studio, while we may be slightly different members of the community, we are members of the community.
00:21:33
Speaker
We buy the games.
00:21:34
Speaker
I have a house full of games.
00:21:38
Speaker
I buy them with my own money.
00:21:42
Speaker
I trade them, collect them, play them, clean them, tweak them, modify them, do all the things you do, we do.
00:21:51
Speaker
So the product development studio buys more games from the company than any other area of the company.
00:22:00
Speaker
So what does that mean?
00:22:02
Speaker
It means that we want to make themes that we're interested in.
00:22:06
Speaker
We want to make, you know, we raise our hands for things that are, that would be cool to do.
00:22:10
Speaker
Why don't we do that?
00:22:13
Speaker
So we talk about stuff all the time.
00:22:15
Speaker
Now we don't, we have to temper that with the fact that
00:22:19
Speaker
We can only take a flyer that's a niche title and take that chance only so often.
00:22:29
Speaker
You know, because we're also a business and we're a big business.
00:22:32
Speaker
And so we have to sustain the business.
00:22:34
Speaker
That means that, you know, if you guess wrong on your niche title, it might hurt you.
00:22:40
Speaker
So you have to.
00:22:42
Speaker
So we try to.
00:22:43
Speaker
We like broad.
00:22:44
Speaker
We like broad audience appeal.
00:22:46
Speaker
We like humor.
00:22:48
Speaker
We like, you know, we you know, every my most successful games.
00:22:53
Speaker
Um, you know, maybe the exception of like Lord of the Rings, but almost everything else has had humor that, you know, the, the, the breakouts, right.
00:23:02
Speaker
The breakouts in my portfolio, right.
00:23:04
Speaker
Have had humor.
00:23:06
Speaker
Um,
00:23:08
Speaker
So I think, you know, humor plays a role, plays a role.
00:23:12
Speaker
Something that's culturally relevant plays a role.
00:23:15
Speaker
Something that, you know, something that has a broad appeal plays a role.
00:23:20
Speaker
We, so I think that those are the things we think about.
00:23:27
Speaker
And, and, and like I said, that's not to say that we can't,
00:23:30
Speaker
what are the outliers?
00:23:32
Speaker
When we did Iron Maiden, we thought, we know Europe's gonna like it.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:39
Speaker
I got it right there.
00:23:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:41
Speaker
We said, but we knew Europe's gonna like it.
00:23:44
Speaker
We don't know how America's gonna response.
00:23:47
Speaker
We were pleasantly surprised, but that was considered a risk, right?
00:23:55
Speaker
When we did WIC,
00:23:58
Speaker
WIC's a risk.
00:23:59
Speaker
Why is WIC a risk?
00:24:00
Speaker
Well, WIC is a risk because of the controversy of violence, right?
00:24:06
Speaker
The notion of violence.
00:24:07
Speaker
So it's a risk we took.
00:24:10
Speaker
But at the same time, we also said, I think, you know, and it's got nothing to do with the fact that the art is sanitized.
00:24:17
Speaker
We just, you know, we said, and like I said, it's not a political decision from the company's perspective.
00:24:23
Speaker
It's just simply a matter of, hey, that's a cool action title.
00:24:25
Speaker
Let's do that.
00:24:28
Speaker
It's a weird line to toe too.
00:24:30
Speaker
I know that like recently I was talking to a gentleman that loves Cactus Canyon, but he said he'd never own one because it's got the six shooters on the bottom of the apron.
00:24:39
Speaker
So it's, it's kind of a weird line to toe when you are dealing with these niche titles just because you don't know how your audience is going to react.
00:24:47
Speaker
So.
00:24:48
Speaker
Right.
00:24:48
Speaker
And, and, and by the way, I think you can extend that back to the license orders.
00:24:55
Speaker
they don't know.
00:24:56
Speaker
Right.
00:24:56
Speaker
So they're sort of like, you know, what, how, how will that work?
00:25:00
Speaker
And so, um, yeah, this all ages thing is, is really sort of what, but yeah, we're, we have based on this entire episode, we've, you know, we've, we've thought about, and maybe we should put disclaimers on these things.
00:25:19
Speaker
Um, in, when I worked in the, when I worked in, in the video game business, um,
00:25:25
Speaker
There's a thing called the ESRB, which is essentially like when movies are rated PG or whatever, it's for video games.
00:25:34
Speaker
And I'll tell you that I worked on an NBA licensed basketball game.
00:25:38
Speaker
And my game had to have an E rating with no disclaimers.
00:25:44
Speaker
What are disclaimers?
00:25:45
Speaker
Well, there's an E rating.
00:25:47
Speaker
E is for everyone.
00:25:48
Speaker
And then, you know, I forget what they were.
00:25:50
Speaker
They were E for everyone.
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:53
Speaker
you know, M, Mature, I forget what they were.
00:25:55
Speaker
There was, you know, something in between.
00:25:58
Speaker
And the disclaimers were things like, for everyone with mild violence, like, you know, like, what's mild violence?
00:26:07
Speaker
Mild violence is, you know, Roadrunner cartoon.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:12
Speaker
Right.
00:26:13
Speaker
So that, so, and I could not be, I couldn't have any disclaimers.
00:26:18
Speaker
That was the NBA told me,
00:26:20
Speaker
You must be E for everyone, no matter what.
00:26:23
Speaker
So the ESRB...
00:26:28
Speaker
would essentially rate the games.
00:26:30
Speaker
They would give you the rating, but they weren't a sensor.
00:26:36
Speaker
So when I, I'll tell you a story, we had a commitment to have games on the shelves at Walmart and GameStop, all the big retailers.
00:26:49
Speaker
And in some of these big retailers, when you do a deal with them, if they promise you an end cap at Target or Walmart or something,
00:26:57
Speaker
um and you don't deliver your game on time or you don't have your product on that end cap there are penalties and some of those penalties get crazy it could be a hundred thousand dollars a day for for for being late to have your product on the shelf and i'm working on this i'm working on this basketball video game and my my ratings are coming from the esrb and they're like e with you know mild violence e with sexual content all this stuff
00:27:25
Speaker
And I'm like, what the hell, what is this?
00:27:26
Speaker
So I'm, and time is running out.
00:27:29
Speaker
And so they won't tell you why they gave you that rating.
00:27:33
Speaker
They'll just tell you that's the rating because they said, we're not a sensor.
00:27:37
Speaker
And so, so I'm like playing this guessing game.
00:27:40
Speaker
I'm analyzing my game and I'm saying, oh man, what, what is it?
00:27:45
Speaker
What is it?
00:27:45
Speaker
Maybe it's that take that out.
00:27:48
Speaker
And, and, you know, resubmitting.
00:27:50
Speaker
And every time you resubmit, I'd fill out all these forms.
00:27:53
Speaker
We'd send them a check.
00:27:54
Speaker
They'd put it in front of a group of moms or whatever, and then my rating would come back.
00:28:02
Speaker
One day I got a call from the CEO of the company and he said, you are on the shelf in three weeks.
00:28:08
Speaker
If you don't have your E rating, you're not going to be on the shelf.
00:28:12
Speaker
It's $100,000 a day at this retailer.
00:28:15
Speaker
It's $50,000 a day at retailer.
00:28:18
Speaker
Get your ass on a plane to New York today.
00:28:25
Speaker
You know, here I am in Manhattan at the offices of the ESRB going, please, please help me.
00:28:31
Speaker
Tell me whatever it is, whatever you want.
00:28:33
Speaker
And the guy says to me, he goes, I can't tell you, but I can give you some clues.
00:28:43
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, tell me the clues.
00:28:45
Speaker
And he says to me, he goes, your game is raided by some moms in Westchester.
00:28:53
Speaker
And if they think something's risque, maybe, you know,
00:28:59
Speaker
And I'm like, and I realize I've got, I'm not, you have to put this in the context of what it is, right?
00:29:05
Speaker
Sure.
00:29:05
Speaker
And
Innovations in Gameplay
00:29:06
Speaker
at that, at that particular moment in time was a PlayStation two, it was video art on a PlayStation two.
00:29:12
Speaker
And, and it was cheerleaders on the side of the court and the cheerleaders, you know, were like a little bit too risque, but risque in the notion that they were, you know, pixel images of cheerleaders.
00:29:25
Speaker
So yeah,
00:29:26
Speaker
Imagine, it's not like an Xbox today, right?
00:29:29
Speaker
You can't, it's like an Xbox today, you could replicate a perfect image.
00:29:36
Speaker
In those days, it was hardly that.
00:29:38
Speaker
But I'm just like, I'm picking up the phone, call the studio, talk to my art director and say, get every cheerleader in Eternal Night right now.
00:29:46
Speaker
And he's like, why?
00:29:47
Speaker
I'm like, just do it.
00:29:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:53
Speaker
I got my rating.
00:29:55
Speaker
Well, okay.
00:29:55
Speaker
So I'll actually point out that for people who remember when Mortal Kombat came to the Genesis way back in the day, they actually, it came at a default rating of mild violence.
00:30:10
Speaker
And you actually had to enter in a code, which was hilarious because you physically had to call a number.
00:30:17
Speaker
And the first code they gave you was wrong.
00:30:20
Speaker
And you had to wait and listen.
00:30:22
Speaker
And they gave you the real code later.
00:30:25
Speaker
And so you actually had to enter in the code.
00:30:28
Speaker
So for all the youngsters out there who don't realize how big of a deal this was, this was like in the 90s.
00:30:37
Speaker
And this was maybe a long time ago for you, but not a long time ago for me.
00:30:42
Speaker
Maybe, I mean, it's interesting.
00:30:44
Speaker
It's an interesting conversation.
00:30:45
Speaker
I wonder if I went to Lionsgate and they said, hey, if I put a sticker on it, it says for 18 use only.
00:30:50
Speaker
I don't know that that would get it across the finish line because of the fact that
00:30:55
Speaker
You're still putting them in arcades.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:57
Speaker
Their issue is that you don't know where it's going and it may end up, you know, it will end up in commercial locations and I, maybe that's not enough.
00:31:06
Speaker
And so, you know, I'm still at the mercy of, of, you know, that, you know, that judgment.
00:31:12
Speaker
So is that why you guys still kind of do family friendly modes as well on most of the games?
00:31:17
Speaker
Family friendly modes are pretty much, pretty obvious, you know, meaning that if, you know, Sopranos, right.
00:31:24
Speaker
I had a family friendly mode and, and, you know, it's like, but you know, Lyman and I were sitting around one day, you know, thinking, Hey, wouldn't it be funny if, and I was like, yeah.
00:31:34
Speaker
And it's always, you know, like we came back and at the time I was like,
00:31:40
Speaker
Gary's like, I love it, but you gotta, you know, that means you gotta put on an adjustment.
00:31:44
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:45
Speaker
We do that.
00:31:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:47
Speaker
No, it's okay.
00:31:48
Speaker
Now we've talked about the controversies around surrounding John Wick.
00:31:51
Speaker
Now I actually want to know about the game.
00:31:53
Speaker
Like why is this a, because you guys have done some things kind of like venom where you're trying some different things that you haven't done before in this game.
00:32:04
Speaker
you actually have like some adaptive coding.
00:32:08
Speaker
And so I want you to talk, lead me through the game, lead me through why this would be a good game for me to buy.
00:32:15
Speaker
It's really that particular element that you're referring to is, it's essentially, you know, it's referenced as an AI.
00:32:24
Speaker
It's very much out of video games and it's like a combat system in a video game where,
00:32:29
Speaker
The game watches you do certain things and it makes, it makes, it reacts to essentially what it, you know, what it, you know, what it, it's feeding you something based on what you've done in a, in a, in a, maybe in a more sophisticated way than the obvious.
00:32:45
Speaker
And so it's really just, I mean, when we do that stuff, we're just trying to innovate.
00:32:51
Speaker
We're trying to create something in the biggest impact it has on this game is that,
00:32:57
Speaker
It may not make it feel the same.
00:33:01
Speaker
So it makes the game feel fresh every time you play it and the enemies that it's serving you up and the challenges that it's presenting you.
00:33:11
Speaker
And so you may or may, you know, and hopefully you'll notice it.
00:33:15
Speaker
You know, you'll notice that, hey, every time I step up to this game, I'm getting, you know, it feels different.
00:33:21
Speaker
And that was the intent for that.
00:33:23
Speaker
There are some other cool things in there.
00:33:24
Speaker
Like there's a choreography system where you kill three guys, you watch John Wick kill three guys, you know, so it's very linked.
00:33:34
Speaker
And he's done a masterful job with that, by the way.
00:33:37
Speaker
I can't describe it in words.
00:33:40
Speaker
You have to kind of experience it, but it really feels very connected.
00:33:45
Speaker
It almost feels like the, even though, even though it is all film footage from the films, it feels like incredibly choreographed to the action in the game.
00:33:56
Speaker
Um, and so, you know, we try to innovate.
00:33:59
Speaker
It's like, that's a thing that, you know, it's, it's kind of like the level up system in Venom, right?
00:34:04
Speaker
And it's like, you're going to see that again, you know, we create something and you're going to see in this game, you're going to see in app, I see notifications for contracts.
00:34:13
Speaker
And, um,
00:34:15
Speaker
we'll use that.
00:34:16
Speaker
Now we have a piece of technology and now we know how to create content for that technology.
00:34:23
Speaker
And so we're going to do different things with it.
00:34:27
Speaker
So one thing I want to point out too, this is a new designer.
00:34:31
Speaker
I know he's been at Stern for a decade now, but Elliot Eisman was the lead designer on this.
00:34:37
Speaker
And it's awesome that you guys are going with new
00:34:39
Speaker
new teams and kind of new blood.
Mentorship and New Designers
00:34:42
Speaker
My question is, though, because looking at John Wick and Foo Fighters, because that was Jack Dandridge's first cornerstone, there is a lot of elements from what you'd like to put in your games, and I see elements from John Borg.
00:34:56
Speaker
So do these guys pretty much get free reign to do whatever they design, or do you have almost like a Gomez's institute of playful design that you run through?
00:35:06
Speaker
Well, clearly, look, I mean, I...
00:35:08
Speaker
Part of my job is to sort of guarantee the quality of the product coming out of the studio and to mentor and teach.
00:35:18
Speaker
And so I've worked a lot with Elliot and I've worked a lot with Jack.
00:35:24
Speaker
So it's sort of like, I don't want them to be me.
00:35:27
Speaker
I don't, you know, I think that, but the reality is that, you know, a designer doesn't have a style until he's done a bunch of work.
00:35:37
Speaker
he won't find his style.
00:35:39
Speaker
You know, he won't, even if he tries, right?
00:35:43
Speaker
Style is a thing that comes to you from, you know, from exercising your profession.
00:35:49
Speaker
Right.
00:35:49
Speaker
From doing the work you do.
00:35:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:52
Speaker
And eventually it's like, you know, you begin to think a certain way and you begin the thinking translates into the thing you're building and, and, and all of a sudden you have a style.
00:36:03
Speaker
So, um, Jack's next game will have elements that may seem familiar, but it'll have a bunch of new things.
00:36:13
Speaker
And Elia's game is, you know, maybe influenced the first influences of a designer are typically the games he liked.
00:36:23
Speaker
If you talk to Elwin, he'll tell you that, you know, he loved games like Funhouse, that he loved the Lawler games.
00:36:32
Speaker
And so, you know, now, is there a connection between Elwin's games and Lawler's games?
00:36:39
Speaker
Maybe, but it's evolved, right?
00:36:42
Speaker
It's like now it's his own thing.
00:36:44
Speaker
Now it's Owen's thing, right?
00:36:47
Speaker
And Pat's thing is over here.
00:36:49
Speaker
And so...
00:36:50
Speaker
I think that, um, you know, there's, there's different, you know, Jack's Jack's open cross shot thing.
00:36:59
Speaker
Well, you know, stare at a Deadpool, right.
00:37:02
Speaker
That, that, that cross shot, you know, when he, when he, you know, he loves that game.
00:37:09
Speaker
And so he played that game a lot.
00:37:10
Speaker
So he said, what else can I do with this?
00:37:13
Speaker
So he put his own twist on it.
00:37:15
Speaker
Right.
00:37:15
Speaker
So, so, and when I, when I first started,
00:37:19
Speaker
You know, you look at Johnny Mnemonic and I was playing a lot of Terminator 2.
00:37:23
Speaker
And I said to myself, this feels fast.
00:37:26
Speaker
These shots connect.
00:37:27
Speaker
There's some element of flow.
00:37:30
Speaker
And so I started thinking along those lines.
00:37:32
Speaker
But, you know, Johnny Mnemonic is the second game I ever made.
00:37:36
Speaker
I didn't have a style.
00:37:37
Speaker
I was trying to figure it out.
00:37:40
Speaker
you know now i eventually you know dialed into things i i try to reinvent myself i don't like to you know i don't like to repeat myself even though i do have certain things that are stylistically you know mine i don't i try not to make the same thing over and over again you guys be bored with that yeah i think and that's what i like about seeing these designs is you guys do take familiarity that we are accustomed to
00:38:05
Speaker
but then you put your own twist and maybe add a couple new elements that we haven't seen before.
00:38:09
Speaker
So we still get the feel goods of the nostalgia with the dopamine hit of new mechs or new little twist.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, look,
00:38:20
Speaker
I worked, um, I, you know, I did, those guys were jammed up with a lot of things.
00:38:25
Speaker
I sculpted a little car in wick.
00:38:28
Speaker
Um, and you know, it couldn't be a Mustang.
00:38:30
Speaker
It couldn't be a Barracuda.
00:38:31
Speaker
It couldn't be a, uh, a Cheval because you know, which one am I going to make?
00:38:35
Speaker
And on top of that, I would have had a license, whatever it was.
00:38:38
Speaker
And so I said, no, I'm going to make a generic muscle car.
00:38:40
Speaker
I'm a, I'm a car guy.
00:38:42
Speaker
I think, you know, I can, I can style something.
00:38:44
Speaker
And I said, Elliot, I
00:38:48
Speaker
you work on the mech.
00:38:51
Speaker
So I think we collaborated on stuff like that.
00:38:54
Speaker
We collaborated on the illuminated city, the edge-lit city, stuff like that.
00:39:00
Speaker
We worked together on things like that.
00:39:02
Speaker
I shot his game.
00:39:04
Speaker
I'd say, I think you should move this.
00:39:06
Speaker
I think you should do this over here.
00:39:09
Speaker
But I do that with everybody, even the guys with experience.
00:39:15
Speaker
Sometimes, Owen says, hey, take a look at this.
00:39:17
Speaker
What do you think?
00:39:18
Speaker
Or I don't know what to do with this.
00:39:19
Speaker
What should that be?
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah, he attributed the ramps on Godzilla to you.
00:39:26
Speaker
They were coming back too fast.
00:39:27
Speaker
And he said, if you just kind of make him swirl a little bit, slow down that ball.
00:39:31
Speaker
I love the visual of the ball path on that.
00:39:35
Speaker
It's amazing.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:38
Speaker
So, I mean, you want, you know, you want, I think that I, there's things I preach, right?
00:39:43
Speaker
Like I preach, you know, I preach ramps are a toy.
00:39:48
Speaker
So, you know, try to make them interesting.
00:39:52
Speaker
Try not to just, you know, come straight down the side and bring the ball back to the flipper.
00:39:56
Speaker
So, you know, there's a bunch of different things.
00:40:00
Speaker
I mean, these guys make fun of me.
00:40:02
Speaker
I'm sure they, they hear me say, you know,
00:40:05
Speaker
Give me five good things, not 18 mediocre ones.
00:40:10
Speaker
Behind my back, I'm sure they've got a whole list.
00:40:14
Speaker
Okay.
00:40:15
Speaker
So on John Wick, there are four movies and there's going to be another one coming out, it seems like.
00:40:21
Speaker
What is the pathway?
00:40:22
Speaker
If I walk up to the game...
00:40:24
Speaker
do they cross over between all the different, cause you've done this before with Lord of the Rings, you had all three movies, but you could kind of pick a little bit of a path.
00:40:33
Speaker
So with John Wick, do you try to pick, okay, I'm going to focus on movie four.
00:40:38
Speaker
I'm going to focus on movie three or.
00:40:39
Speaker
No, cause you're in the world of John Wick, but you're not playing the film per se.
00:40:45
Speaker
Okay.
00:40:46
Speaker
So a little bit like Jurassic Park where you're in the Jurassic Park world, but you're not actually going through the film.
00:40:52
Speaker
There's contracts and factions and enemies and different assassins and, and you're, you're, you know, what you choose to do will drive you through, but there's, it's not a, it's not a logical path through.
00:41:07
Speaker
Um, there are some, uh, what would you call it?
00:41:10
Speaker
Uh, like, uh, theme setting moments.
00:41:15
Speaker
But that to the franchise kind of thing, you know, but, but there, but there's way it has, you know, games have to be designed.
00:41:25
Speaker
Games will never be played the way a designer designs them.
00:41:29
Speaker
Games will be, you know, and, and, and therefore,
00:41:33
Speaker
they have to be played, they have to be fun regardless of how you play them.
00:41:38
Speaker
Right.
00:41:38
Speaker
You know, it's like when, when I meet new designers, they, they think that a game is going to be somehow played in the, in this progression in their head.
00:41:47
Speaker
And that's just not the case.
00:41:49
Speaker
And license orders are, by the way, that's one, that's one of the biggest education points with license orders is, you know, when, when we worked on star Wars, they were like, well,
00:42:04
Speaker
And you're like, no, no, no, you don't understand.
00:42:08
Speaker
He can do anything he wants, anytime.
00:42:11
Speaker
Yeah, right.
00:42:12
Speaker
It would become quite boring if you were plowing the same path on every game.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
00:42:19
Speaker
So it brings up two questions that we've had on the pro for John wick.
00:42:25
Speaker
You did talk about that car.
00:42:26
Speaker
Does it move at all?
00:42:27
Speaker
Or is it just stationary kind of right there?
00:42:29
Speaker
It reacts to hits, but it doesn't, it doesn't come.
00:42:32
Speaker
It doesn't swing out.
00:42:34
Speaker
Okay.
00:42:35
Speaker
And the other question I have too is in the red circle room.
00:42:39
Speaker
So obviously on the premium, the balls drop from top cause it's a physical ball lock, but on the pro there isn't that.
00:42:44
Speaker
So do you just hit the balls in there?
00:42:46
Speaker
Do they, do they trap up behind the drop target?
00:42:48
Speaker
How does that work?
00:42:49
Speaker
Now I'm trying to visualize what he does with them.
00:42:53
Speaker
I think he gives you a virtual lock.
00:42:55
Speaker
I think that's what he's doing.
00:42:57
Speaker
I can't remember now.
00:42:58
Speaker
I've played the other one more than I have the pro.
00:43:01
Speaker
Okay.
00:43:01
Speaker
We were just curious on that.
00:43:04
Speaker
And I did see a pitcher where the ball was, there was a drop target in front of that and there was a ball behind it.
00:43:09
Speaker
I think he holds the ball there.
00:43:11
Speaker
He can hold the ball there.
00:43:11
Speaker
He's got a switch back there.
00:43:13
Speaker
Okay.
00:43:14
Speaker
Definitely behind the drop target, he's got a switch there.
00:43:19
Speaker
So how did, now Elliot, did he do other like small projects to audition for you?
00:43:26
Speaker
Like how did this come about?
00:43:28
Speaker
Because you do three cornerstones a year.
00:43:31
Speaker
It's not like you're handing those tokens out very readily.
00:43:35
Speaker
Right, right, right.
00:43:37
Speaker
You know, he got lucky in that there were some assignments in the schedule that left that opening.
00:43:45
Speaker
And so that helped.
00:43:49
Speaker
He's a mechanical engineer by trade.
00:43:51
Speaker
He's a degreed mechanical engineer.
00:43:53
Speaker
And he's been, you know, he has worked on a lot of games at this point.
00:43:58
Speaker
And, you know, he raised his hand and said, you know, I want to try, I want to try this.
00:44:04
Speaker
And the good news about a guy like him is that I don't have to teach him how anything's made.
00:44:10
Speaker
And I don't have to teach him, like, I don't have to teach him, like, some fundamental things that, like, for example, Jack had to learn, you know?
00:44:19
Speaker
And so, because Elliot has been...
00:44:23
Speaker
on a designer's vision for a long time.
00:44:25
Speaker
So, and he's worked with numerous designers.
00:44:29
Speaker
So, you know, I think that because of that, he had a big, you know, he had a huge advantage on somebody else.
00:44:42
Speaker
Here's a guy, I don't have to teach him how to mock something up.
00:44:44
Speaker
I don't have to teach him how to try something.
00:44:46
Speaker
I don't have to teach him anything about the technology.
00:44:47
Speaker
I don't have to teach him anything about,
00:44:50
Speaker
like, you know, why the ball guy rests on the post and not behind it.
00:44:54
Speaker
I, you know, all that kind of stuff.
00:44:56
Speaker
Right.
00:44:56
Speaker
So he knows all that.
00:44:59
Speaker
And so, you know, now I'll tell you that, you know, I balled up his first two white woods and threw them away.
00:45:09
Speaker
So, you know, and so, you know, his game was under some pressure because
00:45:16
Speaker
you know, his first two were, you know, not so good.
00:45:22
Speaker
So I think that, but that's,
00:45:28
Speaker
know that's part of the process right it's like you know the the only people that haven't failed at something there are people that haven't done anything so so i think you know he's he he failed he failed quickly and and then i said i said look i said you know we're running out of time this next one's got to count you have to pay very close attention to the things i say and and we got to get there and so you know we worked to a you know get to a place very fast
00:45:58
Speaker
And then, you know, we started once, once you have the structure of something, refinement is easy.
00:46:05
Speaker
You know, you can refine it if you, if you are at a place, but if you're in a horrible place, I'm just throwing it out.
00:46:12
Speaker
You know, I don't need to see, you know, it's like, what's your special toy?
00:46:15
Speaker
It's a mini play field.
00:46:16
Speaker
I'm like, no, no, it's not.
00:46:24
Speaker
So is it safe to say that this isn't going to be Elliot's last game designing?
00:46:28
Speaker
Is he going to be a designer from here on out or is this kind of like a one-off?
00:46:32
Speaker
Well, so it, you know, it's look, I have right now, I have an overabundance of designers.
00:46:37
Speaker
So it may be a little while before you see another Elliot game and he may, you know, he might have to, he might have to focus on some other, you know, there's, I mean, there's no shortage of work around here.
00:46:49
Speaker
So he may have to focus on,
00:46:54
Speaker
I haven't moved all the chess pieces around yet for the next batch of stuff.
00:46:59
Speaker
There's a bunch of stuff in flight, right?
00:47:01
Speaker
Jack's in flight, Keith's in flight, Orgy's in flight.
00:47:05
Speaker
So those are projects that are moving.
00:47:09
Speaker
And so now it's a question of where does all you plug in and how does he work?
00:47:15
Speaker
if you don't
Production and Market Demand
00:47:16
Speaker
see anything from him for a while you know it it it'll be because you know like i mean i said i'm i have a wealth of designers right now yeah
00:47:26
Speaker
Really talented, amazing designers.
00:47:29
Speaker
It's amazing to see Elliot designing when you've, I mean, granted Jack is beginning.
00:47:35
Speaker
His first design was amazing with Foo Fighters.
00:47:37
Speaker
I mean, you got Owen.
00:47:38
Speaker
I thought the Jurassic Park home panel actually was fun.
00:47:41
Speaker
It was great.
00:47:42
Speaker
But you've got Eddie, Owen, and Borg.
00:47:44
Speaker
Yeah, you haven't seen the end of the Jurassic Park home panel.
00:47:48
Speaker
Oh, no, it's, it's a fun game.
00:47:50
Speaker
Actually, I have considered it, but I have the other Jurassic park over here.
00:47:54
Speaker
So, well, that's, that's interesting.
00:47:55
Speaker
Cause didn't you guys announced last year that you were discontinuing the home pins and whatnot?
00:48:00
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I don't, you know, when there's- Maybe for a season.
00:48:03
Speaker
You know, it's the Black Knight conversation, you know, I think that, like, our interview is running together in my head with Joel's interview, so if you guys didn't ask me about Black Knight, did you guys ask me about Black Knight?
00:48:14
Speaker
No, we didn't, but- Well, that's about Black Knight.
00:48:16
Speaker
Joel said to me, he goes, he goes, so what's this about this Black Knight?
00:48:19
Speaker
So I, the funniest part to me is, like, these conspiracy theories- Sure, yeah.
00:48:25
Speaker
Online about, you know, like, they must be, you know, like,
00:48:31
Speaker
things must be on fire.
00:48:32
Speaker
They're pulling out black knight.
00:48:36
Speaker
No, somebody, you know, like that, we, we build games on demand, meaning that, that if there's enough demand and somebody comes in and says, Hey, we could probably sell another X of those.
00:48:46
Speaker
Well, you know, all right.
00:48:47
Speaker
When can you fit them in the schedule?
00:48:49
Speaker
You know, can we sell a license for that?
00:48:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:51
Speaker
Let's fit it in the schedule.
00:48:52
Speaker
Hey, I just heard on the phone that there are a 2000 to 3000 people wanting a vault of Lord of the Rings.
00:49:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:03
Speaker
That's the toughest fault.
00:49:05
Speaker
It's like, it's like, not only is it so Joel asked me the same thing.
00:49:09
Speaker
So it's kind of like, um, the,
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:13
Speaker
Tron.
00:49:14
Speaker
You want me to tell you what they are?
00:49:17
Speaker
No, no, no,
Pinball Accessories and Spike 3 System
00:49:18
Speaker
we don't.
00:49:18
Speaker
More to the rings.
00:49:19
Speaker
Tron.
00:49:20
Speaker
Ghostbusters.
00:49:21
Speaker
Simpsons pinball party.
00:49:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:25
Speaker
So we, um, if we have the part, we can get the parts, if we can, if the license is in place or we can, or it's not a complete pain in the butt to extend the license, um,
00:49:39
Speaker
If we have a slot in the schedule, I mean, there's a lot of things that play into it, right?
00:49:44
Speaker
But when dealers and distributors call and they say, hey, you know, I see Black Knights going for crazy money.
00:49:51
Speaker
I think I could sell some Black Knights.
00:49:55
Speaker
Then you go, okay, all right, what do you think?
00:49:58
Speaker
Give me a number, okay?
00:49:59
Speaker
And then...
00:50:00
Speaker
Two weeks later, another guy calls you up and says, hey, I see a demand for Black Knights.
00:50:04
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:50:05
Speaker
Now all of a sudden, you start putting this together, the sales guys show up and they go, hey, can we make a new Black Knights?
00:50:10
Speaker
So that's really...
00:50:13
Speaker
A lot of times a game is sort of underserved the market.
00:50:20
Speaker
I think Black Knight was like that.
00:50:21
Speaker
Stranger Things was that way.
00:50:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:25
Speaker
A lot of love for the pro, not so much for the premium.
00:50:29
Speaker
It was like, okay, we'll make what people want.
00:50:33
Speaker
Hey, we're blessed.
00:50:33
Speaker
The back catalog.
00:50:35
Speaker
you know, we, we're going to make Deadpools again and, you know, we made them and this game we launched in 2017.
00:50:42
Speaker
You know, we have lots of games like that, which is where if there's demand, we'll make it.
00:50:47
Speaker
We've got to figure out where to fit it in relative to the cornerstones and all that.
00:50:50
Speaker
But yeah.
00:50:51
Speaker
So I do have a followup on all those because the one thing that you have dipped your toe into the market on, which is great because obviously I buy them, but like toppers and accessories, you know,
00:51:03
Speaker
so this is, this is the fan side of me that I am.
00:51:06
Speaker
I do not work in pinball.
00:51:08
Speaker
I don't work in manufacturing.
00:51:09
Speaker
I do have mechanical engineering degree though.
00:51:11
Speaker
So if you're looking for an extra person, um, I'll quit my job and move out.
00:51:16
Speaker
Um, the, uh,
00:51:18
Speaker
I've always wondered why isn't there like a, a designated division that that's all they do.
00:51:23
Speaker
Like they, they build toppers or they even go back in time and build toppers for other things, but have them simultaneously launched with the game.
00:51:32
Speaker
Because I guarantee that is when, if people are like, Ooh, I'm going to give the, the elite.
00:51:37
Speaker
Oh, I'm also going to get the topper.
00:51:39
Speaker
I want the shooter rod.
00:51:40
Speaker
I want the expression lighting kit.
00:51:41
Speaker
I want the, uh, you know, the, the shaker motor, uh,
00:51:45
Speaker
I want the hovercraft, you know, I want every, I have $25,000 burning a hole in my pocket and I definitely want everything it wants.
00:51:52
Speaker
We look, we're not, you know, we're not ignorant to that.
00:51:55
Speaker
We absolutely understand that.
00:51:56
Speaker
And, um, um,
00:52:00
Speaker
It is a thing that I just told Joe, I said, it's a thing that they told me I have to do.
00:52:05
Speaker
That's the thing that I, you know, I have to deliver that stuff when we offer the game.
00:52:10
Speaker
And I completely understand that.
00:52:12
Speaker
Now, remember that toppers sometimes go, they have to, not sometimes, all the time, they have to go through the same process as a game.
00:52:21
Speaker
So, in
00:52:22
Speaker
So like the Star Wars one, the Star Wars one that came out like three years later.
00:52:26
Speaker
A year later.
00:52:26
Speaker
Right.
00:52:27
Speaker
So that was a, that was a, that was a sort of difficult in approvals and you know, that, that, that blew on R2-D2, you know.
00:52:37
Speaker
So you have the licensing component, you have a manufacturing component, and, you know, you, of course, you have the, just the game team is focused on deliver the game.
00:52:47
Speaker
Sure.
00:52:48
Speaker
And, you know, the last thing that they want to do is mess with the topper at this point.
00:52:53
Speaker
So we are, we are totally aware of it.
00:52:56
Speaker
It's a thing I got to fix.
00:52:57
Speaker
It's a thing we don't do well.
00:53:00
Speaker
And I got to, you know, the more, there was so much demand for that stuff.
00:53:05
Speaker
So now I'll tell you that you're going to see the wick topper sooner than you think.
00:53:11
Speaker
It's going to be really cool.
00:53:18
Speaker
I'll give you a clue.
00:53:19
Speaker
Time is involved.
00:53:24
Speaker
Time is involved?
00:53:25
Speaker
Okay.
00:53:26
Speaker
Time is involved.
00:53:27
Speaker
Okay.
00:53:28
Speaker
Hmm.
00:53:28
Speaker
But, but, um,
00:53:32
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean, I think I hear you and yeah, it's a thing we gotta fix.
00:53:37
Speaker
We do, look, we do lots of things right.
00:53:40
Speaker
We do lots of things wrong.
00:53:42
Speaker
And, you know, we gotta, we gotta get better at this launch coordination thing.
00:53:49
Speaker
We gotta get better at the successories at launch.
00:53:53
Speaker
Um, we gotta do, I mean, we just, we're not, we're far from perfect.
00:53:58
Speaker
We're far from perfect.
00:54:01
Speaker
I want to rewind just part of the conversation because we were talking about remakes there for a second and
00:54:07
Speaker
Back in October 2021 at Expo, you announced Spike 3 is coming, that you're working on it and it's coming.
00:54:14
Speaker
And we're starting to hear rumors and rumblings of Spike 3 and a possible remake from a DMD-era game.
00:54:21
Speaker
I guess my first question is, how close are we to seeing Spike 3?
00:54:25
Speaker
And the second question is, are we going to start seeing remakes?
00:54:29
Speaker
And does the Spike 3, I guess, have any feature?
00:54:33
Speaker
I guess one of the biggest things I've heard online is,
00:54:36
Speaker
Is the screen going to be bigger?
00:54:37
Speaker
Like, is there, is there, are we pretty much just going to get the same old LCD?
00:54:40
Speaker
I guess that's.
00:54:41
Speaker
So you're getting, um, so the, so I can't talk too much about spike three.
00:54:47
Speaker
Cause I don't, you know, um, I don't want to steal the thunder or the launch and all that, but, um, you're going to get, uh, better, everything, more of everything.
00:55:01
Speaker
it's an opportunity to look at all the things you didn't do right and do them right.
00:55:07
Speaker
So it's an opportunity.
00:55:09
Speaker
What are you going to get?
00:55:10
Speaker
You're getting more horsepower, more processing power, more ability to cooler everything.
00:55:18
Speaker
That's really extensions into areas that you're complaining about now and you're saying, I don't like that.
00:55:28
Speaker
So it's an opportunity to fix it.
00:55:30
Speaker
Are you going to see it soon?
00:55:32
Speaker
You are going to see it.
00:55:35
Speaker
You may see it before the year is out.
00:55:37
Speaker
When you see it, a lot of it is going to be very familiar to you.
00:55:47
Speaker
And meaning, you know, I would guess that the node bus is going to remain and the node bus architecture and, you know, that, you know, maybe
Stern's Expansion and Economic Considerations
00:55:58
Speaker
it's, you know, there's lots of things that you're going to look at and go, oh, yeah, it's, you know, it's definitely a spike.
00:56:05
Speaker
It's a spike.
00:56:06
Speaker
It's, you know, it's an evolved spike with more horsepower.
00:56:13
Speaker
Now, are you... What was the second half of your question was about vaults?
00:56:19
Speaker
Are we going to see remakes coming with the new Spike 3s?
00:56:22
Speaker
You'll see remakes.
00:56:23
Speaker
remakes aren't going to be driven by can we make them on Spike 3.
00:56:29
Speaker
They're going to be more driven by what's the demand and what can we do with it.
00:56:37
Speaker
If we see an opportunity...
00:56:43
Speaker
And I don't think it's no secret.
00:56:45
Speaker
I've talked about, you know, some of the stuff you guys want, right?
00:56:48
Speaker
Like everybody wants a Tron.
00:56:50
Speaker
You know, there's some, there's challenges.
00:56:53
Speaker
We don't have a Tron license.
00:56:54
Speaker
We have to go get a Tron license.
00:56:56
Speaker
There's challenges, you know, what do you do with the display?
00:56:58
Speaker
And at some point, you know, you know,
00:57:03
Speaker
You have to be sure that the amount of development work that you're going to put into it stands a chance of being profitable.
00:57:12
Speaker
Because if you say to yourself, if I build it on Spike 3, unless I emulate the dots and just use the display as a dot emulator like that, you know, like...
00:57:26
Speaker
The CGC, like Monster Bash.
00:57:28
Speaker
That's what I had.
00:57:29
Speaker
I had Monster Bash.
00:57:30
Speaker
That's right.
00:57:32
Speaker
So if you do that, it's a little different.
00:57:35
Speaker
It's maybe less work.
00:57:37
Speaker
But then you say to yourself, I don't know if I got this cool new display.
00:57:41
Speaker
Do I really just want to do that old stuff?
00:57:44
Speaker
And then the conversation quickly evolves, right?
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:51
Speaker
So it's more – you're going to see some cool stuff.
00:57:55
Speaker
But it's not like we're going to, I don't think we're going to have a cadence of, of like every old game is going to be remade or anything like that.
00:58:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:07
Speaker
I guess, more of a 2.0 version.
00:58:09
Speaker
Because we've talked about Tron a couple of times.
00:58:11
Speaker
So it's like, you got a lot of room there.
00:58:13
Speaker
You got film assets.
00:58:15
Speaker
Who wouldn't love seeing Jeff Bridges on that display screen while you're- You say, okay, so what would it take to do that?
00:58:23
Speaker
And then if you say, at the back end, if you talk to the sales guys and go, could you sell this many of them?
00:58:28
Speaker
And then they work the math back and they go, okay, yeah, you can pay for development.
00:58:32
Speaker
You can pay for parts.
00:58:33
Speaker
You
00:58:36
Speaker
the overhead, all that stuff.
00:58:38
Speaker
Right.
00:58:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:40
Speaker
So I want to get into them.
00:58:42
Speaker
You guys have moved to a bigger facility with bigger manufacturing capabilities, which is great.
00:58:50
Speaker
And it's also a blessing and a curse because in many ways you still have more operating costs when you actually had going to a bigger, a bigger area.
00:59:00
Speaker
And, um,
00:59:02
Speaker
What justifies that and what makes that a successful move?
00:59:06
Speaker
Because you have to sell more units to justify the bigger real estate.
00:59:12
Speaker
I mean, it's a little bit of, it's not quite as simple as that, meaning that if the business was hamstrung because you couldn't manufacture enough games in the old facility and in the new facility you can, then that overhead isn't, I mean, there's an overhead, but it's not, it's not any, it's like, it's not, you're not going backwards.
00:59:39
Speaker
The math economy that I've seen online is not, like I see guys speculating about the new facility is a burden, et cetera.
00:59:51
Speaker
You don't understand the new facility is a facilitator.
00:59:57
Speaker
You know, we've got like, you know, we have two buildings.
01:00:00
Speaker
We have one that's got four CNC machines, crank and play fields.
01:00:06
Speaker
The, you know, this, this building, everything's,
01:00:11
Speaker
space, everything's nice and clean.
01:00:14
Speaker
My shops, the whitewood lab, all that stuff is better.
01:00:17
Speaker
We have, you know, we have opportunity.
01:00:18
Speaker
I just bought a bunch of new 3D printers and, and, you know, we have, you know, we're just, we're growing and, and we have to, it's a, it's kind of like, if you want to reach the next level, you have to make some investments.
01:00:35
Speaker
The cost of things isn't necessarily always passed on to you.
01:00:38
Speaker
The company reinvests in the company.
01:00:40
Speaker
Yeah.
01:00:41
Speaker
And that's the part that nobody understands this.
01:00:45
Speaker
The growth, when you have a self-funded company, the success of the company funds the next growth step of the company.
01:00:55
Speaker
So it's sort of like, it is just like your personal economy.
01:00:58
Speaker
If you got a raise because you did really good work or you did more work last year than, you know, than you did the year before and your revenue, you know, your personal revenue went up, you can make choices.
01:01:11
Speaker
You can say, Hey, I was, you know, I needed this other thing in order to do more of what I was trying to do.
01:01:19
Speaker
And so I probably need to buy some of those, whatever that is.
01:01:23
Speaker
So that it's really our, our scenario is like that.
01:01:27
Speaker
Um, it's not to say, look, there's.
01:01:30
Speaker
When everybody, everybody talks about the price of the games and I don't, we don't like that.
01:01:35
Speaker
The price of the games is what it is either.
01:01:37
Speaker
We have, we in the price of a game, everybody talks about the bills of material.
01:01:42
Speaker
It's not just about the bills of material.
01:01:44
Speaker
There's millions of dollars spent on.
01:01:49
Speaker
spent on, on, you know, on manufacturing a labor force that can build the games that all that stuff has to be advertised.
01:01:57
Speaker
So you have right now you're getting all of IC server costs and everything is free to you.
01:02:03
Speaker
Um, and, and so you have, um, the, you know, there's a lot of things like the investments in, in
01:02:15
Speaker
efficiency, you know, there's so, so all these things impact the price of a game and, and there's things that we do not control lots of them.
01:02:24
Speaker
So the majority of the material in the pinball machine is not generated from scratch by our, you know, in other words, I don't make steel and I don't form steel.
01:02:35
Speaker
I, you know, we do, you know, so, so the extended enterprise of, you
01:02:40
Speaker
companies that support us, they have, you know, if the cost of, you know, their raw material goes up, it gets passed on to me.
01:02:51
Speaker
And our costs, by the way, also in the cost of our pinball machines is the fact that we have to essentially sell through a dealer distributor network, the largest dealer distributor network in the business.
01:03:07
Speaker
But those guys have to make it, they have to make their life SOA profitable, right?
01:03:12
Speaker
So,
01:03:13
Speaker
So they take the product we sell, they need a markup.
01:03:17
Speaker
They need to sustain their businesses and their families and all that stuff.
01:03:20
Speaker
And they mark it up and it ends up being the price you have.
01:03:22
Speaker
So we control some pricing, right?
01:03:26
Speaker
We decide to some extent.
01:03:28
Speaker
There's a guy in the thread, in the John Wick Weapons thread.
01:03:31
Speaker
He says, you know, why doesn't Gomez address the elephant in the room?
01:03:35
Speaker
It's $13,000 LE price.
01:03:38
Speaker
And, you know, and, you know, in the process, of course, he had to insult me and say that, you know, we were greedy.
01:03:46
Speaker
And so it's like, you know, I don't, I wish I could take that.
01:03:51
Speaker
I wish I could really, you know, show that guy what goes into the games and how much we keep because he doesn't know.
01:03:59
Speaker
He's just making some assumption that we're.
01:04:03
Speaker
we're all getting wealthy on this greed.
01:04:09
Speaker
I'll
Community Engagement and Misconceptions
01:04:10
Speaker
tell you what I hear.
01:04:12
Speaker
I hear that pricing is an issue.
01:04:14
Speaker
We know this and we have had, there's across the world, there's essentially a post COVID reality, a readjustment to normal life.
01:04:29
Speaker
And so during COVID, you weren't spending all this money on all this other stuff.
01:04:33
Speaker
So you decided you could afford a pinball machine and you got a pinball machine.
01:04:39
Speaker
We want pinball machines.
01:04:42
Speaker
When you see us talking to non-industry press, what's that about?
01:04:48
Speaker
Well, that's about getting the pinball word out to people that wouldn't normally get the pinball word.
01:04:54
Speaker
because the, the industry, you know, the community within the, you know, the, the, the press within the community is going to cover the game no matter what.
01:05:02
Speaker
And they're going to address the community we have.
01:05:05
Speaker
We want to grow the company.
01:05:07
Speaker
I want people, I want, I don't want to hear ever that, you know, do they still make those things?
01:05:12
Speaker
Right.
01:05:12
Speaker
I want that to go away.
01:05:14
Speaker
I want people to, I want, I want growth.
01:05:16
Speaker
I want people to say, and you know, yeah, you can say, well, you know, there's not going to grow over $15,000.
01:05:21
Speaker
Well, I, you know,
01:05:24
Speaker
The game is priced based on what we have to do to make the... We're a business.
01:05:31
Speaker
We have to be profitable.
01:05:33
Speaker
And...
01:05:34
Speaker
The dealers and distributors have a right to their profits and they do an element of work in dealing with the customer directly, delivering the games, promoting the games, all that kind of stuff.
01:05:50
Speaker
But the reality is that there's a bunch of people out there that are potential customers that are not aware.
01:05:56
Speaker
That's when you see us at CES, when you see us at Comic-Con and you guys, and I hear the community go like, what are they doing there?
01:06:03
Speaker
It's got nothing to do with us.
01:06:05
Speaker
Well, it may not have anything to do with you, but we want more of you.
01:06:11
Speaker
We want everyone to embrace pinball so that we never hear that again.
01:06:17
Speaker
It guarantees the sustainability of the product and our livelihoods and our future.
01:06:27
Speaker
So I will push back on two things and you can choose or not to address them.
01:06:33
Speaker
With gas prices, it goes up and down depending on the season.
01:06:37
Speaker
So summertime gas prices go up.
01:06:39
Speaker
So with COVID, we had significant cost issues and things escalated in price very quickly.
01:06:48
Speaker
However, the, you could argue that's fine, but it was like a new set point.
01:06:54
Speaker
Things typically didn't go down after the, after the things became more available and you could even argue.
01:06:59
Speaker
And I've made the argument before that.
01:07:02
Speaker
And this is again, me talking as a pure fan.
01:07:06
Speaker
I am, I don't manufacture, I don't sell anything.
01:07:11
Speaker
So the black night topper, I bought it when it first came out.
01:07:14
Speaker
And it was under $500.
01:07:15
Speaker
And now it's significantly more.
01:07:18
Speaker
And you could argue like, hey, I bought the topper for Rush too.
01:07:22
Speaker
So there are things that are, there are toppers that you could argue are more expensive and less expensive.
01:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, some of those, and that's not to say that there isn't some on demand pricing, right?
01:07:37
Speaker
If you have a shortage of something, and you get more money for it, then sometimes people do.
01:07:45
Speaker
But I don't know that, like the thing about buys, right?
01:07:52
Speaker
Like when you buy 250 parts, it's significantly different than when you buy a thousand parts.
01:07:58
Speaker
Sure.
01:08:00
Speaker
Right, so depends on where and when you plug into the cycle, right?
01:08:04
Speaker
So if those guys come back and they say, we can only sell 250 of these, we gotta have a really hard discussion about, is it worth it to build 250 of these?
01:08:16
Speaker
Because the price that you pay for those 250 parts that you order, is gonna be a heck of a lot different than when you ordered 5,000 of them, you know?
01:08:26
Speaker
And so I think that the other thing about things like the Black Knight Topper is that you've got a bunch of those parts are tooled in China.
01:08:36
Speaker
And when there are political issues between our countries, those prices get affected.
01:08:44
Speaker
And that's a fact.
01:08:46
Speaker
So you can go back there and you can say, well, what about this?
01:08:52
Speaker
Sorry, that's what it costs now.
01:08:56
Speaker
I will point out, though, the one thing I have really appreciated that Stern has done, even with, I would say, more than... Okay, I'll put it this way.
01:09:07
Speaker
The accessories can be expensive.
01:09:09
Speaker
However, you can get a functional, fun pinball machine for what I would consider a very reasonable price because the gameplay, it does sell, and that is the...
01:09:20
Speaker
that is what interacts you with, with a game.
01:09:23
Speaker
It's kind of like a car.
01:09:24
Speaker
You can buy a car.
01:09:25
Speaker
That's an entry level that will still do most of what you need.
01:09:29
Speaker
And if you want the extra stuff on top, yeah, you're going to pay more for it.
01:09:32
Speaker
And if that's important to you, but I've appreciated the stern has been able to focus on getting a reliable machine.
01:09:39
Speaker
That's fun.
01:09:40
Speaker
That still has a reasonable entry level price.
01:09:43
Speaker
Yeah, we have, you know, you, you touched on a couple of things there.
01:09:47
Speaker
Um,
01:09:49
Speaker
One of the things that I tell people in this entire crazy conversation about the guns thing on WIC, some people approach it from the standpoint that, like no one's holding a gun to your head, no pun intended, to buy the product.
01:10:12
Speaker
And I always tell people, buy what you like.
01:10:18
Speaker
Don't buy what you don't like.
01:10:20
Speaker
I mean, it's one of those things where – and accessories are something that they're not a must-have.
01:10:28
Speaker
You know, the game is really solid without it.
01:10:32
Speaker
It's a way to trick out your game.
01:10:34
Speaker
I also believe that accessories – there should never be a situation where, like, toppers are priced at X because toppers are priced at X.
01:10:43
Speaker
You know, it's like, you know, topper, this topper is complex.
01:10:47
Speaker
It's got a lot of stuff in it.
01:10:48
Speaker
The price of that topper should be a lot more than pricing a simple top.
01:10:53
Speaker
And there's gonna be both.
01:10:54
Speaker
There's gonna be simple toppers.
01:10:56
Speaker
There's gonna be complex toppers.
01:10:58
Speaker
You know, there's gonna be, and just like games, right?
01:11:03
Speaker
You know, you look at a Deadpool play field, what's on a Deadpool play field?
01:11:07
Speaker
Not a lot, but it's fun.
01:11:10
Speaker
You know, I don't think anybody will argue that point.
01:11:13
Speaker
So it's kind of like you, I don't think putting more stuff in a game is necessarily any guarantee that it's better.
01:11:22
Speaker
God knows I've seen, you know, some of the competitors games with like, you know,
01:11:30
Speaker
A lot of stuff.
01:11:31
Speaker
A lot of stuff.
01:11:32
Speaker
Folds down into a tank.
01:11:35
Speaker
I can't tell you that there's some equivalent amount of play value associated with this stuff.
01:11:43
Speaker
And anybody who's... Look, I think if you're serious and you truly do the analysis, I think that what you have to...
01:11:58
Speaker
We deliver product consistently.
01:12:00
Speaker
We deliver reliable product.
01:12:03
Speaker
I think we deliver a fun product.
01:12:05
Speaker
The, you know, our games, and this is not braggadocio.
01:12:09
Speaker
Our games are the highest earning games in the world on location in terms of pinball machines.
01:12:16
Speaker
Our games consistently out earn.
01:12:18
Speaker
Our games are, if you talk to operators, they'll tell you they're the most reliable.
01:12:23
Speaker
And, and I'll tell you that, um,
01:12:26
Speaker
In the not too far distant future, the largest footprint of operated pinball machines in the world is going to be Stern Pinballs.
01:12:34
Speaker
And so I think that, you know, I, I, I look, you have things like Insider Connected, they, it's, it's transformed the way people interact with pinball machines.
01:12:45
Speaker
And it's going to continue to, right?
01:12:46
Speaker
I mean, we're just about to introduce in-app notifications with Wix.
01:12:50
Speaker
You're going to be getting contract notifications on the phone.
01:12:54
Speaker
You can turn them off, by the way.
01:12:56
Speaker
They're not going to hassle you.
01:12:57
Speaker
But it's going to add an element of play that you haven't had.
01:13:03
Speaker
And there's some really cool twists tied to it.
01:13:06
Speaker
And so there's a lot of stuff like that where you say, you know, where else can you get this?
01:13:12
Speaker
Because you can't get it anywhere.
01:13:16
Speaker
You can't get the, you know, just the constant barrage of stuff we do.
01:13:23
Speaker
With the data that we're getting back from IC, I now, look, I'll tell you that, you know what the, you know, one of the highest earning PMO machines on location today is?
01:13:35
Speaker
Take a guess.
01:13:36
Speaker
Star Wars.
01:13:37
Speaker
Venom.
01:13:39
Speaker
Venom.
01:13:39
Speaker
Really?
01:13:40
Speaker
Actually, I actually understand that.
01:13:42
Speaker
There's a Venom here locally, and I've gone and played it, and it is interesting.
01:13:48
Speaker
I would love to see the premium on location because I've only played the pro on location.
01:13:52
Speaker
But absolutely, it's bringing a different audience to the games and to the arcades that would not go otherwise.
01:14:03
Speaker
So I would say it actually is really better for location
01:14:08
Speaker
Venom would be than maybe even a home environment.
01:14:11
Speaker
I'll tell you another Venom stat.
01:14:15
Speaker
In the home, it gets played more than other games in those homes.
01:14:23
Speaker
And so for whatever reason.
01:14:24
Speaker
Now, is it in as many homes as a Godzilla?
01:14:27
Speaker
Absolutely not.
01:14:29
Speaker
Right?
01:14:31
Speaker
But I think that's, you know, Godzilla is a fantastic game, but beyond that, it's also a theme that appeals broadly.
01:14:40
Speaker
Right?
01:14:40
Speaker
Yeah.
01:14:42
Speaker
So you have these thematic niche, you know, is a problem and, you know, so every once in a while, you take a flyer and you say,
01:14:52
Speaker
You know, I think now I know for a fact that, you know, Venom is going to play a role, a bigger role in the MCU.
01:15:01
Speaker
And, and so, you know, you say, well, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, down the road, more people will be aware.
01:15:09
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:10
Speaker
Hey, just a, a theme option.
01:15:12
Speaker
There's also another Deadpool coming out in a Deadpool Wolverine would be a great theme.
01:15:18
Speaker
You know, and you never know.
01:15:21
Speaker
I'll leave you with that.
01:15:24
Speaker
I've actually got two questions that we've been talking about this and it clicked to me.
01:15:28
Speaker
One of them was, you're talking about you're privately funded and whatnot.
01:15:31
Speaker
One of the rumors in the last two months or three months is Stern's looking to go public.
01:15:36
Speaker
Can you comment on that or anything to that nature?
01:15:39
Speaker
No, I mean, I'll tell you that some of the speculation is really fun to watch.
01:15:49
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think we're going public anytime soon.
01:15:53
Speaker
I think that the company is growing, right?
01:15:54
Speaker
And so when you grow, people become interested in you.
01:16:10
Speaker
Right.
01:16:10
Speaker
And so you say, you know, but at the same time, you know, I think that that's, that's really natural.
01:16:18
Speaker
You know, it's just a really natural thing.
01:16:19
Speaker
You know, it's like you say, wow, those guys are doing really well.
01:16:22
Speaker
You know, I wonder what they, you know, I wonder what the, you know, but it's a privately held company.
01:16:26
Speaker
So it's like, you know, the ownership has to decide that that's the thing they want to do.
01:16:30
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
01:16:32
Speaker
And then the other question I had too is, as I noticed through the marketing push that you guys have done for John Wick, you guys said that there's a studio in Los Angeles and one in New York.
01:16:42
Speaker
Is that something that you guys own or is that just something that was pushed for the marketing?
01:16:48
Speaker
I don't know that we said studio.
01:16:50
Speaker
We said we did a...
01:16:53
Speaker
We did a tour, a press tour.
01:16:57
Speaker
We did a press tour in the East Coast, one in the West Coast, and one in the Midwest.
01:17:04
Speaker
And that was it that we invited.
01:17:08
Speaker
non-industry press to try to get eyeballs, non-industry eyeballs, right?
01:17:13
Speaker
Or non-community eyeballs.
01:17:16
Speaker
That's what that was.
01:17:17
Speaker
We don't have anything.
01:17:19
Speaker
We don't have a presence on the West Coast.
01:17:23
Speaker
It's actually...
01:17:25
Speaker
Look, back in the day when I was earlier in our conversation, I was referencing my time at Midway Games when I worked on Xbox and PlayStation stuff.
01:17:34
Speaker
And that's very common in that business that you're going to launch a game and you do a press tour.
01:17:43
Speaker
But it's really, it was really, that press tour was about, we know you guys are going to cover it.
01:17:48
Speaker
We know the community is going to get hardcore industry coverage on the stuff.
01:17:55
Speaker
And even that said, I think we're looking to invite a bunch of people.
01:18:00
Speaker
We invite you guys to come and see us.
01:18:04
Speaker
Oh, we got the invite.
01:18:05
Speaker
Good job.
01:18:06
Speaker
Good.
01:18:07
Speaker
Yeah, we'll be there.
01:18:08
Speaker
Yeah, so it's going to be an opportunity for us to show you around and give you a little bit of a glimpse behind the curtain and just show you.
01:18:20
Speaker
And honestly, I don't ever want somebody to...
01:18:29
Speaker
imagine that, that we don't hear and that we don't listen, uh, cause we do.
01:18:36
Speaker
And, and I also think that I, you know, you don't have to like everything we do.
01:18:42
Speaker
You're entitled to your opinion.
01:18:44
Speaker
You, you know, you can say, I don't like it.
01:18:46
Speaker
Um, this one's not for me.
01:18:48
Speaker
You can, it's, it's okay.
01:18:49
Speaker
It's like, it's for somebody.
01:18:52
Speaker
Um,
Conclusion and Industry Challenges
01:18:53
Speaker
you know, it, it, it, it's, uh, I,
01:18:57
Speaker
this uh you know the i'm glad i i'm glad you guys have given me this opportunity because it's very difficult to have these conversations you know three sentences at a time texting uh on a facebook post and you know so i think that uh i hope people listen and i hope i hope they listen they really listen to what i've said yeah um you know
01:19:22
Speaker
the frenzy of the frenzy of, you know, what about this?
01:19:25
Speaker
I saw, I saw there was a, there was a gun in James Bond.
01:19:29
Speaker
He's like, yeah, there was.
01:19:32
Speaker
And, and you know, this is why.
01:19:33
Speaker
Okay.
01:19:35
Speaker
Oh, go ahead, Josh.
01:19:36
Speaker
Oh, I was just going to say probably what you were going to say.
01:19:39
Speaker
Yeah.
01:19:40
Speaker
We're getting close to, to the end of our time here.
01:19:42
Speaker
The one question I have is what is something that you would like to bring up that we weren't smart enough to think about?
01:19:57
Speaker
I think that I can tell you that we do this work from our hearts.
01:20:11
Speaker
We don't...
01:20:16
Speaker
You know, I don't like it when people imagine us as the evil empire, even though that's really common for the biggest company in a given business.
01:20:25
Speaker
You know, we're the 900 pound gorilla.
01:20:28
Speaker
You just have to understand that the people that make up the 900 pound gorilla are not a hell of a lot different than you are.
01:20:37
Speaker
They have a different skill set.
01:20:38
Speaker
You know, they have a very specialized skill set.
01:20:41
Speaker
They know how to make pinball machines.
01:20:43
Speaker
But we are in the community.
01:20:46
Speaker
We suffer those prices just like you do when we are aware of it and we are trying to figure out a way to not raise prices and to, you know, if we could drop prices, we probably would.
01:21:01
Speaker
So I think, yeah, I mean, it's... I don't know what else to tell you.
01:21:09
Speaker
I think that...
01:21:14
Speaker
I hope people understand.
01:21:16
Speaker
I am being absolutely honest when I tell you the things I've told you.
01:21:23
Speaker
It was not, you know, taking guns off the art on John Wick was not any kind of political statement.
01:21:32
Speaker
It was the fact that we are an all ages product when we're on, we're considered an all ages product when we're on location.
01:21:41
Speaker
can't guarantee to the licensor that we're not going to be on location.
01:21:45
Speaker
And therefore, the constraints that come with that are, you know, can't have guns on the static art.
01:21:52
Speaker
Once you press the button and you're in the game, you've made a conscious decision to play the game.
01:21:58
Speaker
And that's a different story.
01:22:01
Speaker
Well, George, we really appreciate you coming on.
01:22:04
Speaker
Like I said,
01:22:06
Speaker
I don't know.
01:22:06
Speaker
I wish we had Wayne's Rose.
01:22:07
Speaker
We're not worried.
01:22:10
Speaker
You're such a legend in this industry and we appreciate everything that you do for us.
01:22:15
Speaker
And honestly, I think...
01:22:17
Speaker
Speaking directly to the community right now, I think we take for granted how plugged in a CCO of a company is to this community.
01:22:27
Speaker
It's amazing that there's all these different industries, but it seems like you guys actually listen to the community.
01:22:33
Speaker
And like you said before, there's some things you guys do amazingly well, and there's stuff that you fall short on.
01:22:39
Speaker
And you guys acknowledge that.
01:22:41
Speaker
And I think that's the most you can ask for from a company.
01:22:44
Speaker
And I think another thing people need to realize too is,
01:22:47
Speaker
You know, if you're driving a small boat, it's easy to pivot.
01:22:50
Speaker
Right.
01:22:50
Speaker
But you guys are like a cruise liner.
01:22:52
Speaker
And so every time you have to pivot, it takes a few extra steps, a little extra time.
01:22:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's a bigger pivot.
01:22:58
Speaker
So but we do.
01:22:59
Speaker
We appreciate you coming on and clarifying a lot of this stuff because it's a lot of questions.
01:23:04
Speaker
Even us is pinball media, as we like to put it.
01:23:08
Speaker
had?
01:23:08
Speaker
And I think you've answered all of them and I appreciate you doing that.
01:23:13
Speaker
Look, I'm not that unavailable.
01:23:17
Speaker
So it's like, feel free to hit me from time to time, whatever.
01:23:23
Speaker
And if I can clarify something, I'm happy to.
01:23:26
Speaker
I'd much rather
01:23:28
Speaker
Uh, you know, I'd much rather tell you the truth on something than have it spin into like the conspiracy theories that I read online.
01:23:36
Speaker
Right.
01:23:36
Speaker
And so it's kind of like, you know, there's, there's a bunch of people out there speculating why I kept Elliot out of the limelight and all this kind of stuff.
01:23:43
Speaker
I'm just like, you know, Elliot, Elliot and Tim are going to be on tour.
01:23:47
Speaker
They're going to do all the interviews.
01:23:49
Speaker
They're going to do all this stuff.
01:23:50
Speaker
His name, he signed, you know, he signed all the LA's.
01:23:53
Speaker
It's like, it's like not some, you know, it's not a military secret.
01:23:56
Speaker
He happened to be on vacation when we did the photo, the video shoot and we didn't think it was a big deal, you know?
01:24:01
Speaker
So it's like.
01:24:04
Speaker
Yeah, you're going to get plenty of Elliot face time and he's done a nice job and everybody's got to cut him some slack.
01:24:15
Speaker
He's new.
01:24:16
Speaker
But other than that, I mean, the game's amazing considering.
01:24:20
Speaker
Well, I'd like to have Elliot and Tim on and pick their brains on the physical design and the code design because it would be a really interesting discussion.
01:24:30
Speaker
Echo your words.
01:24:31
Speaker
Get in front of a game.
01:24:33
Speaker
Go play.
01:24:34
Speaker
These games are online right now.
01:24:36
Speaker
I can't wait to get my hands on.
01:24:38
Speaker
I'm going to join them.
01:24:43
Speaker
If someone wants to get a hold of you, do you want them getting a hold of you, George?
01:24:46
Speaker
Is there a place they can get a hold of you at?
01:24:49
Speaker
I think a lot of people... Facebook... I'm on Facebook.
01:24:55
Speaker
When you friend me, I usually accept...
01:24:58
Speaker
A lot of people PM me on stuff and I try to, I monitor and I spend time in pinball, in Stern Pinball Enthusiasts.
01:25:09
Speaker
Some of the forums for my games, I look at those a lot.
01:25:13
Speaker
I look at forums for new games.
01:25:15
Speaker
I just got, I jumped into the WIC forum.
01:25:22
Speaker
And so I think that's probably a good place to reach me.
01:25:27
Speaker
I listen to opinions.
01:25:28
Speaker
I may not always engage.
01:25:30
Speaker
I may not always answer, but I listen to opinions.
01:25:33
Speaker
I watch.
01:25:35
Speaker
And certainly you guys can have a direct line to me and you can certainly feed it back through your show.
01:25:45
Speaker
Definitely.
01:25:47
Speaker
We're going to be there soon and we're going to bring some hats.
01:25:50
Speaker
We have new hats coming out, so we'll house those out to people.
01:25:54
Speaker
I'll have to get on that.
01:25:55
Speaker
Especially if it's going to be out there in two weeks.
01:25:57
Speaker
You guys are shooting me in my office.
01:25:59
Speaker
I was just thinking about the community is going to be doing the NSA analysis.
01:26:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
01:26:05
Speaker
It's back here.
01:26:08
Speaker
I see.
01:26:08
Speaker
I see.
01:26:10
Speaker
Well, I see the next game in the corner behind your – Behind the chair, I see the next game.
01:26:17
Speaker
You can't see it because it's cropped, but it looks really good.
01:26:19
Speaker
Yeah.
01:26:20
Speaker
That's what made me laugh.
01:26:21
Speaker
If you guys did the Stern factory tour last year for Expo and people walking away from that Falcon, what's Falcon?
01:26:26
Speaker
Oh, that's the code name of their next.
01:26:27
Speaker
No, that was Foo Fighters.
01:26:28
Speaker
And it's all out, guys.
01:26:31
Speaker
Hey, I'll be there in two weeks.
01:26:32
Speaker
If you have an Iron Maiden topper, I'll buy it because I have a spot.
01:26:35
Speaker
You've got a spot for it.
01:26:39
Speaker
You need one.
01:26:40
Speaker
Yeah, it looks a little naked right now.
01:26:43
Speaker
Well, if you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com.
01:26:47
Speaker
We're on all the socials at Facebook.
01:26:49
Speaker
That's
01:26:50
Speaker
or at loser kid.
01:26:51
Speaker
And we're on Facebook, Instagram, X threads, all that jazz.
01:26:54
Speaker
So if you want to get ahold of us, you can contact us that way.
01:26:57
Speaker
We do appreciate the positive response that we've been receiving from our recent episodes and we love hearing from you.
01:27:03
Speaker
And thanks again, George, for coming on.
01:27:05
Speaker
And I guess we'll see you in two weeks.
01:27:07
Speaker
Thanks George.
01:27:08
Speaker
Appreciate it.
01:27:09
Speaker
Go play and stream now.
01:27:10
Speaker
Yeah.
01:27:11
Speaker
I'm on my way.
01:27:12
Speaker
Okay.
01:27:23
Speaker
you