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The Great Hunt by Robert Jordan
28 Plays5 months ago
Jessica Camacho is back and we're continuing our adventure through Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time with The Great Hunt as well as some discussion of the Amazon Prime show. Join us for discussions of teenage boys being teenage boys, Nynaeve actually not being stubborn enough for once, and the trauma of the Seanchan.
Theme music created by Skips A Beat music.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mandemonium Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to Mandemonium, a podcast where I, your host, Mandy, talk to guests about their favorite works of fiction, whether that be books, movies, TV shows, or more.
Discussion on 'The Wheel of Time' Book 2 with Jessica Camacho
00:00:20
Speaker
Today, I will be continuing my discussion with Jessica Camacho of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. We'll be discussing book two, The Great Hunt, as well as seasons one and two of the Amazon Prime adaptation entitled The Wheel of Time.
00:00:38
Speaker
Welcome back. Uh, today we are welcoming back Jessica Camacho to continue our discussion of the wheel of time. So Jessica, you continued reading. We are now on the second book. Uh, thumbs up, thumbs down. Are we going to keep going? Thumbs up. I'm going to keep going. Yeah. I, uh, I was proud of myself for finishing book two. They're big books. So, and, uh, it was slow go there cause I, uh, I think taking a break between might be good, but, uh,
00:01:08
Speaker
I really liked it. I did. I liked getting more involved in the world and more involved with the Isidae and I thought this book really just, you know, more exploration of this world and I really enjoyed it.
00:01:24
Speaker
So you haven't so you you would still recommend it to listeners who have not read it. Yeah, I would. Yes, even though, like you said, 14 books is a commitment. So I think it's the best thing policies take it one at a time. I think it is helpful to read a couple books between each wheel of time book so that you're not like, just staring at this wall of books, and being like overwhelmed that for the next two years, all you're gonna be reading is a wheel of time books.
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah and like I've never read a fantasy series that this is this big before. um Probably not even close because I never finished Game of Thrones so... Game of Thrones isn't this big. Yeah and yeah that's only seven books and I mean big books but still only half so that's kind of daunting. So yeah I think you're right. Read some pilot cleanser books in between and then go again but yeah I really did enjoy the second book and and getting to know these characters more.
Spoiler Alert for 'The Wheel of Time' Series
00:02:18
Speaker
All right, so before we get into spoilers, I'll just do general warning. Obviously spoilers for books one and two of The Wheel of Time because, you know, we're in the second book. yeah While we are focused on the book, inevitably discussions of the television show will come up. So there are only two seasons at this point of the television show. The warning I'll give is that season two of the television show has elements of book three. So Jessica,
00:02:45
Speaker
is pre-spoiled about a couple of items that could come up but mostly I feel like those items are characters and their existence. So light spoilers for book three I will say but only as related to the TV show. Um, and then once we catch up to the TV show, there'll be no spoiler warnings for that because we'll be caught up. That's exciting. I think our dream is to be caught up before season three comes out, right? Yeah, that's the goal. Yeah. yeah And we have no idea when that's coming out. So no, no. And our understanding is season three is going to be book four, uh, but possibly with elements of book three, uh, cause they're only doing the plan. I have no idea what Amazon's going to greenlight them for.
00:03:31
Speaker
But the plan is eight seasons. Fourteen books in eight season in eight seasons. So that's a commitment see if the Amazon gives them eight seasons. I'm not even sure if Amazon has greenlit season four yet. So they may be waiting to see how season three does. Yeah. But season three is going to be a game changer, which I can't talk about because spoilers. So once again, we are talking about The Great Hunt book two of The Wheel of Time. So now, spoilers.
Plot and Character Setup in 'The Great Hunt'
00:04:02
Speaker
i So I will say that the opening of this book is just slow. It is, yeah. It is so slow. I think that's why there was a like a good month there. I was trying to get through it because it's been a few months of the first book and since we bought about the first book. But yeah, it is a bit of a, it's a bit of a slow burn at the beginning.
00:04:21
Speaker
Yeah. So I will warn you that like all the prologues going forward are going to be like this where they're like long and have none of the main characters in it. Uh, because it's kind of like Robert Jordan being like furniture moving, right? Like what are the bad guys doing? What are other people who maybe aren't necessarily bad, but antagonists like doing, cause I'm going to use the word bad to mean like evil, but we have antagonists who aren't necessarily like,
00:04:49
Speaker
in line with the dark one they they're just like power players yeah or i mean like pushing their agenda but not yeah like the shan-chan like i mean while i might say the shan-chan are morally evil they're not like all in alignment with like satan right like the shan-chan are bad but yeah the first chapter of this book colloquially called the dark friend social by fandom it has a lot in it like i think we were talking about this at the end it's like almost all the dark friends we meet in this book are at that social but you don't necessarily realize it
00:05:31
Speaker
Yeah, till the end. I had no idea until you actually pointed it out at the, because, but I do remember because they did this in the show and they showed just like people's clothes and things like that. So I did remember that in the book or in the show. um But yeah, definitely. That was very cool, I thought. Yeah, you pointed that out. And then when we finally do get to Rand, I just feel like the whole opening time when they're in Shinar is just Yeah, it's so slow like and I don't know why Even the Isodia getting there doesn't help me
00:06:09
Speaker
Yeah, I was a little excited to see the Aes Sedai meet. We met the Amelan Seats. Is that how you say it? I say Amaryllian, but I don't think that's right. I only say it that way because of the show. I think that's more right. We meet her and I'm interested in getting into the Aes Sedai world. So I like that part. But yeah, it is slow. It was a little bit of a drag. And plus Rand in the beginning of this book was just so...
00:06:37
Speaker
but He's so like, I've defeated the dark one. Yeah. BT Dobbs. Dark one's dead.
Character Names and Identities Challenges
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah. cuz I'm 18 and I told like kid you didn't even kill Ishmael like let alone the dark one yeah like I don't know what to tell you I guess spoilers if you watch the show though this isn't a spoiler blah blah blah blah blah is Ishmael he yells and whatever yeah that that is one thing the show has done that I agree with like just dispense with this like crazy Ishmael and his multiple names like it is Ishmael let's not let's not beat around the bush here guys
00:07:09
Speaker
It's confusing enough. It is. i Yeah, that there's so many names and what's worse with the Forsaken is that none of the names we know them by are their names. Oh, yeah. So they have like real names. So is Lanfir... That's not her real name. That's her evil name. her evil That's her Darth Vader name. Do we get to hear their real names? Yeah, so ancient males, I think we actually heard already in the prologue of um Second book? The first book. Oh, the first book? When he's talking to Lucerne. Oh. And it's like Eli, I want to say. ah But I never remember it remember it because Ishmael has so many other names, which are also spoilers. i So Landfear has a real name. like Nobody names a kid Landfear. All those names are like old tongue, and they like mean something, right? Like Ishmael is like Betrayer of Hope, right? Yeah. ah Nobody names their kid Betrayer of Hope.
00:08:08
Speaker
ah No. Not generally, I guess. Your name means... Mommy, what does my name mean? You're gonna betray everyone, and not just everyone, but hope itself.
00:08:20
Speaker
parents didn't look up that name, they're like, oh, that sounds cool. that Yeah, so Rand's super cocky. He even says like the dark one's name at one point and like the whole world like like tilts like hiccups and it's just like and that doesn't like clue him in that he's like an idiot. I don't know. I think he was very teenage boy idiot in this book. Like the whole time. Like landfear. Like landfear Celine. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. This person like you're not trusting of anyone. You're on this hunt.
00:08:54
Speaker
you There's all these things and then this magical beautiful woman just appears and you're like, hey. Appears in a like parallel universe. Yeah. but I'm just going to trust her. How did she get here? I think you can only get here by channeling. She's not an I said I. She says she's not an I said I. Yeah. You're in weirdo bizarro land and then you bring her to normal land where she brings you. I don't know how, but yeah, he does it. He does it. Yeah. Okay.
Class Dynamics and Character Relationships
00:09:24
Speaker
Because Lanfear is super invested in Rand channeling and taking power, right? Yes. Which is also so... Lanfear has no idea how to manipulate Rand in this book. Thank you. It is very clear. She doesn't understand what motivates him at all. No. Well, and not only Rand, but Loyao and Ryan. They're like, okay. And Loyao's like, whoa, she's beautiful. You know, and like... So you would think Heron would have a little more sense, right? Because I get that Rand and Loyle are supposed to be young, right? Because even though Loyle's like 100 years old, in like ogre time, he's supposed to be like, yeah, he's like a kid over here. He's Rand's age, right? Heron's like married with kids.
00:10:10
Speaker
Like the man's got to be like between 30 and 40, right? Like when I think You know, he's very into like serving Rand and like doing that. So maybe, I don't know. But yeah, he's just like, Hey Rand, this is not a great idea. Yeah. Maybe it's like her and is so invested in the class system that he assumes that a Lord can't be making a dumb decision. He is. Yeah. He, he's very into that. Yeah. And Rand's like, I'm a shepherd. Yeah. I'm not a Lord. Like stop. He's like, yes, my Lord.
00:10:44
Speaker
which Which brings us to like Matt and Perrin and Rand and like at the beginning their whole like fight Yeah, they do fight like Teenage boys, I guess. I don't know Yeah, well, it's like Maureen took all of Rand's clothes and replaced them with like these super nice clothes because she's like you're the Dragon Reborn dressed like a kid. Yeah Preparing him. Yeah and Matt and Perrin are just like oh you're Lord now Lord Rand
00:11:16
Speaker
Matt especially I think is like whatever dude. I'm just gonna say this is like the minor-est of minor-est of spoilers but Matt being mad about Rand dressing nice is hilarious to me and we'll talk about that more in a later book because Matt has opinions okay about clothing and he has just not reached that character development yet to realize that he can care about clothing. Oh okay. But it's just like in now you're just like oh Matt You're so cute.
Character Preferences and Development
00:11:48
Speaker
And dagger infested. But yeah. i I hope he, I'm assuming he gets better since he, you know, not the dagger.
00:11:58
Speaker
And I'm hoping they don't have to describe him as super gaunt with his skin tight against his skull anymore because they did that multiple times. with the like Yeah. And yeah, I will say it is a Robert Jordan ism to like reuse things over and over and over again, like a descriptor or a character. ah but But once Matt's healed from the dagger, that won't be.
00:12:20
Speaker
part of him anymore, right? But like, Naive pulling her braid, or like, the women smoothing their skirts, like. Okay. Over and over. Over and over. That's okay. I just hope with Matt, like, I think, I'm guessing, or I think, that, like, the dagger brings out the worst of his qualities, and so, hopefully, because you've said that he's your fave, is that he, uh, that he's not a sarcastically mean, because he was kind of mean.
00:12:50
Speaker
Like I don't mind being characters but like he's kind of jerky in this book. Yeah. I mean I would say Matt will always be a little sarcastic. Yeah and I appreciate sarcasm. Yeah. I just like he's not helpful all the time. but Yeah and you know it's one of those things where it's like what makes a good character versus what makes a good friend and they're not always the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah because out of the three boys I would be friends with Perrin. Definitely. I find Perrin very boring to read.
00:13:21
Speaker
that's true but like he would be a great friend like like he's just he would be solid dependable always there for you yeah yeah we'd be bros yeah yeah eggweed and nynae would drive me up the wall in real life that's because they're exactly like me so it's a problem you think they're both exactly like you in different ways okay yes yes i'm probably more like eggween i'd say but i identify more with nynae Yeah, I have a lot of Egoine stuff too. Like when she seems to like, want when Nynaeve is like having that interaction with the Isodai. It's when the Amrelin seat comes in and and is like training her or whatever. And she's just so like, you know, she's talking back kind of and not being respectful and Egoine's like, so yeah, that's me. Like, just like, just,
00:14:18
Speaker
All the rules. Right? yeah Can you not just ah yeah do what you're supposed to do, Night Ave? And Night Ave is like, absolutely not. Yeah. she's She's definitely more like, whatever. I hate you guys. Like, leave me alone. I don't want to do this. I blame you guys for this position we're all in. and yeah Which is, I mean, it's so funny to me. I mean, I know it's because they're children. I mean, Night Ave's like 27, so she's not a child. but like They blame the Aes Sedai as if it's their fault that the world is falling apart. Yeah. They all do. Yeah. and It's so weird. Like it is Moraine's fault that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Moraine specifically. Yes. I'm like, what? I mean, I feel like it's a very human thing. It's a shoot the messenger thing. Yeah.
00:15:05
Speaker
Right? Because she's the one who dragged you out of bed, brought the Trollex to the Two Rivers. No child. The Trollex were coming. Yeah. Like, if Maureen hadn't been there, you'd all be dead. Absolutely. Yeah. ah Do they ever recognize that? Like, I'm curious. Yes. OK. Well, it's. OK. Yes. No, it's fine, please. It's complicated, but yes. ay There is a short list of Isodai Rand trusts, and eventually Maureen is on that list. OK.
00:15:35
Speaker
The other one is 9ave. Wow. But he trusts her. That doesn't always make any good decisions. It's that he entirely knows what motivates 9ave, right? Yeah. And 9ave's never gonna lie to him. Yeah. Because she's gonna slap him upside the head and be like, you're an idiot. Call him a wolf-headed idiot. Yes.
00:15:55
Speaker
Which he is. but Yeah, so I mean going back to the two rivers and them leaving or not leaving the two rivers. So Rand's
Rand's Visions and Destiny Struggles
00:16:05
Speaker
visions. Oh yes. In the portal stone. Yeah. Flicker, flicker, flicker. Flicker, flicker. Like he's, he like blames Moraine, but then he sees all these visions of what would have happened if he stayed. Yeah. And none of them are good. No.
00:16:22
Speaker
None of his visions are good. And scary, I imagine. Yeah. Even when even if he stays with Eglaine, like, he dies. Well, he goes mad and dies and, like, in some of them he kills her and some of them he doesn't. yeah But, like, ah it none none of it's good. And at the end of each one, the dark one says, I went again, loose Theron. And can Rand still admit?
00:16:51
Speaker
He's the dragon reborn you better be now i better be able to now ah But get like I think it's a theme or something in the in the book of this book especially like Them denying something about their themselves that they know that they're not ready to acknowledge, right? parent to like yeah, parent runs from the wolf thing and so hard yeah right like it's ridiculous by the way because talking to wolves is cool i think we talked about this in the last episode but i'm like you have the coolest power i know you have all you can talk to wolves like talk to them like i would talk to them a lot like hey what's going on over here what's going on over here you can use wolves
00:17:38
Speaker
If they, you know, speak to you, it seems like a decent amount of information you can
Power and Simplicity: Rand vs. Egwene
00:17:42
Speaker
get. Yeah. And he only grudgingly does it like at any point. He's like, I guess I can talk to the wolves so we can save Matt.
00:17:52
Speaker
I guess. Once again, if I could talk to wolves. I'd be like living with the wolves. Right. I'd have a few like hanging out with me like on my sides like, what's up dudes? Yeah. feel I don't think it's a bad power. I'm the king of the wolves, guys. Just yeah accept it. But I mean, Perrin, like all of them, well, Perrin Rand just wants to be normal. Yeah. Right.
00:18:21
Speaker
and like Well, I think they have this like expectation that they're just going to find this horn, give Matt better, and they're just going to go back to the two rivers and you know live their lives. And it's just unrealistic. Yeah. And I think that's really interesting, right? Because the three characters who ultimately wanted to go home are Rand, Perrin, and Nynave, right?
00:18:47
Speaker
Eggwing doesn't want to go home. She's a on see the world train. Yeah. And ah Matt's dagger sick, but he's also on the see the world train, right? Like he felt very pinned in in the two rivers. um And so yeah, I feel like Matt's the one who's like, I'm never going back there. But we don't really get that in this book because he's just obsessed with the dagger. Right. To be fair, he's dying. So yeah, so he needs a dagger for sure.
00:19:15
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, Egoine wants to take over the world. Yeah, she wants to be the Aes Sedai, lead the Aes Sedai, and yeah. I'm really into it, baby. You uh, you identify with that? I identify. Egoine is the Hermione of the evil field fight. Yeah. Right? Like she wants to know everything, she wants to learn everything, she wants to take over the world.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah, and she doesn't want anyone to mess it up for her either. Right. Yeah, she's very worried about that, I think. Yeah, whereas Rand doesn't want the power that's about to be just forced in his face. Yeah. Right? He's like, I don't want it. I mean, look at him in Kyrene playing the game of houses. Oh my god, he's so bad at the game of the great game. It's a great game. He's just throwing letters. I know, he's just burning letters, and I'm like, oh, Rand.
00:20:05
Speaker
Oh, Rand. This is not going to work out for you, Kenny. I'm not a lord. I'm like, you are dumb. like And like he does it like in front of everyone. They throw him in the fire, and they're all like, huh. Luckily, it works out for him, because like he's also like a tavern. Tavern, yes. It's got to work out for him, I guess. or It doesn't have to work out for him, that like because he can still die, as obviously we've seen in the flickers, right? and like but It's like the pattern, he has literal plot armor, right? And the pattern is trying to bend him in a certain direction.
Prophecies and Romantic Entanglements
00:20:42
Speaker
And it'll adjust if he does something dumb. Yeah, but the pattern can't make him win against the dark one, right? Because the dark cause a dark one.
00:20:51
Speaker
is outside of the pattern and disrupt the pattern. And because it was the dark one wants to destroy the pattern. Right. Right. So he's like the pattern annihilator. Right. So that's like why you kind of like Rand can still lose battles like he can still like he's not he and he needs the other threads, right? He needs the other Taverin and he needs the other people he's pulling to him, which we see at the end of the book, right? When all the girls feel like pulled to Rand, uh, except 9ave, which I thought was weird. But because if I think of someone who's tied to Rand intrinsically, it's 9ave, like, but that's neither here nor there.
00:21:28
Speaker
Not romantically, ah to be clear. Let's just say Ren has enough romantic problems. Oh, he's a girl with you, Lucerne. What in the world like does he... like He's like Lady Catnip. What is the deal? It's the Taverne thing. Okay.
00:21:47
Speaker
I will say they all are that way, all the boys. ah It's the Taveran thing, I think. And like, I mean, I'll say Rand is probably physically pleasing to look at. at Yeah. And he's weird in a unique way. Like, yeah, because he's Iael. So he's exotic. He's not Iael. He says to himself. Isn't denial about everything about himself? Yeah. Yeah. ah But Elaine clearly thinks he's hot. Men clearly thinks he's hot.
00:22:17
Speaker
Well, and I thought that was interesting the way Robert Jordan like wrote that because it was like you would think that they'd be like all like, you know, terrible to each other, like normal girls would be like, and I guess there's still time for that to happen. But they're kind of like, yeah, we kind of like random, but we like each other too. And it's cool. Like, I don't know.
00:22:39
Speaker
Is this bad? Is this spoilers? You're giving me a face. like This is like blow up in the face. of My face is I have so many thoughts and things I want to say, but I cannot share them. And I have emotions. And I have a ship that I cannot share with you. And I have feelings. Okay. Well, I won't put you on that. But I just thought in this book at least, like they were like,
00:23:05
Speaker
We're best friends, or like, we're friends, and then there's Rand, you know? And even though, oh, you can have him. Oh, you can have him. Oh, you can have him. But the only one who's really miffed about it is a Wayne.
00:23:16
Speaker
Yeah. But she's the only one who can't have him. Yeah. Right. And she has other like, she's been making eyes at guys for two books. Right. Tinker Kid. Aram. Oh, who's the guy? Uh, Gallad. Gallad. My dog. Yeah. My dog's named Gallad. Uh, cause he's the most beautiful of puppies. Right. So I named him Gallad. Though he doesn't always do what's right. Just because it's right. Cause he's a dog.
00:23:44
Speaker
yes sorry we're talking about the dog not the character the character is described as always being what's right also shout out gawan uh elaine's brother um please do not read anything about him online because the internet hates him and i don't want you to hate him okay i won't i'm sworn off the internet yes i have to use you as google for a little time i do not hate the trachand boys and I'm considering Gallad a trachand boy. I'm hoping they go more into them. I'm sure they do because you named your dog after one so I'm sure he has more you know so yeah but yeah i I want to know more because they were in this book but you know but not very much not very much yeah yeah and we didn't even get
00:24:29
Speaker
We haven't gotten the Matt Gallad Galwin scene, right? I don't think so. Oh my gosh, this next book. Oh my gosh. Okay. Actually, people are mad that that scene has not been in the show yet, but I don't want to spoil you because I love that scene. so i For some reason I thought it happened, but I guess Matt hasn't gone to the White Tower yet, so that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. isn And the boys haven't left the White Tower. Galwin and Gallad. Right. Yeah. No.
00:24:56
Speaker
makes sense. The one thing I have about this book is like, what is happening when like, Iguin, Night Ape, and Princess, you know, disappear. Like, are they freaking out? Like shouldn't they be like upset that a princess disappeared? I mean, her like, Aes Sedai and waiting is even at the White Tower. Like what is going on? I guess we find out next book. I think we'll find out that in the next book because they're going to go back to the White Tower. Yeah. Right. They're going to come back in the care of Tuo Aes Sedai.
00:25:30
Speaker
No, does Maureen and Rand aren't headed to the White Tower? No. Varen is. Okay, Varen's with them. I I heart her. Mandy heart eyes, Varen. I really liked... I really enjoy the show casting of Varen too, so...
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and I liked that Veron was with them on this instead of Marine, you know, I thought it was interesting and it was cool and it was a different, I said, I look, Oh God, here I am talking again. And you're like, I want to say something that I can't cause spoilers. Sorry, there's this like little smile that comes on my face or I'm just like, I have so many thoughts that I can't share. But yeah, like it just like,
00:26:18
Speaker
other Aes Sedai are invested in Rand, right? And Varen's one of the few Aes Sedai who at this point know this the truth about Rand, which is not something Maureen wanted her to know, but she puzzled together. She's a brown. She's a, that's what browns do. Yeah. Varen's primary motivation is to know everything.
Alliances, Control, and Revenge
00:26:38
Speaker
Yeah. So, uh, she's, Maureen did not send her after Rand. The Rand cannot imagine that all the Aes Sedai are not in cahoots with each other. Right. Well, and I'm like, Varen's pretty like unassuming and she's like, you know, she doesn't like force him to do stuff or anything. And he still is just like, Aes Sedai, I hate them. Yes. It's like Varen's trying to make me channel. No, Varen is saying she's not powerful enough to do this. Oh, yeah. yeah You have to do it. like And she can't teach you.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, she literally said that. She's not trying to. And she, I mean, if she wanted to like, gentle you, I think that would have happened, you know? But he's always just like, working counter to like, people who might help him, like. Yes. And to be fair to him, there are people out there like, Leandrin. Oh, gosh. Like.
00:27:30
Speaker
Well, and the three girls were so easily manipulated, like, oh, Ren's in trouble. Let me follow this. I sedai, too. And it's like the one time you want Nainave to be stubborn, right? Right. And she's like, well, Maureen can work with Landran, so we should, too. I know. What? I'm like, what is wrong with you?
00:27:49
Speaker
Like, I do feel like the show did that a little bit better, uh, cause it actually showed Liandrin like investing in Nynave and like mentoring her. So Nynave would be more willing to believe that she should follow Liandrin somewhere.
00:28:05
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and they put her, she was at the test when she was there, right? And all that stuff. She was, you she's more present in the show than she is in the books. In the show, Liandrin was definitely mentoring Night Naive more, which makes sense, even if you're like, well, Liandrin's Black Aja, why would she do that? Night Naive's on the most powerful channelers in a thousand years. Yeah. Don't you want her on your side? Yes.
00:28:30
Speaker
And if you think Rand is the dragon reborn, which I don't know if Lyandrin knows that at this point. Lyandrin knows that the three boys are all Taverin and they're of interest to the Dark One, but I don't think she necessarily knows which one is the dragon. I don't think they were told that at the Dark Friend social. yeah um But she knows she knows that Nynave is tied to them and that she could get to those three boys who the Dark One wants through Nynave, so why wouldn't you?
00:28:57
Speaker
try to convert Nynave to your cause, right? i So I do feel like the show did that better, because in the book I'm just like, Nynave, you're an idiot. Yeah. Like, I can buy Gwayne being an idiot because she's like authority, right? but Yes. It would make more sense to me if like, Gwayne went with her and then Nynave went after her. Is that what happened in the show? Or I don't remember what happened exactly. It was like they got separated. and I don't remember. Yeah, we'll have to rewatch it. but like Yeah, because I'm like, don't go. And, you know, I had seen the show, so I kind of knew what happened. But I was like, in the book, I was like, don't, this is so dumb. Why would you go with her? Like, and then men's there too, which I appreciated, because that didn't happen in the show. Yeah, men and Elaine go too. Right. And Leandrin's like, Elaine, you're not even supposed to be here. What's wrong with you? Yeah. Because Leandrin's not trying to start a war, right? Like,
00:29:48
Speaker
That is not what she's been told to do, is to disappear the daughter error of Andor, right? like and ah But Elaine's refuses to be left behind. Yeah, I like her. She's not going anywhere, so. I mean, she was in the first book too, right? Yeah. So kind of implies that she she's a sticking around. Well, like in the TV show, like heavily, because she you know Rand was all like concussed or whatever on the floor, and she was like he was like, who are you?
00:30:17
Speaker
Yeah, the TV show is like heavenly light around her, which I find really interesting because in the book, like. Elaine obviously thinks Rand is hot, right? But it's Min that we very clearly understand is like into Rand yeah by the end of the book. But in the show, like Min is like still like nothing to do with Rand. She's trying to like stay away from him. Yeah. And I actually wonder if the show is going to have Min and Rand not be together, except I'm pretty sure in the show, Min still said,
00:30:49
Speaker
three women with Rand. So I'd have to go back and look at that. But, uh, I have other thoughts related to this that I cannot share because I know who all the three women are. Uh, none of which is a going. So yeah, because in this one, there's a, she's like, there's another woman still to be. That we haven't even met yet. Yeah. Yeah. That's what men says to herself. I guess she's not talking to anybody. Okay. ah But men knows Elaine and her and Rand are all going to be, I have. Okay. So saying they're all together makes it sound like it's polyamory in a modern sense, which is not like this is polygamy in an old school sense, right? Like, uh, one guy, three girls, the girls are not together. No.
00:31:37
Speaker
That's a lot of fun. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Okay, but we gotta talk about the Sean Chan. Ugh. Do we? We do. We do. Dark. Terrible. Yeah. I mean, the TV show is hard to watch. Like, Eglaine being tortured like that, but reading it was just as bad. If not worse.
00:32:05
Speaker
Yeah I feel like I mean the TV show pulled out like one or two sentences and extrapolated those into whole scenes which I really appreciated but like in the book there's also something super impactful about the almost like just way it's stated like this happened.
00:32:20
Speaker
Things like Renna talking to Egwene, like she's a dog. yeah Which I feel like that tone doesn't quite come across in the show. Like it's not quite dog and master talk. yeah But it's like, that's what it is in the book. like So yeah, Egwene does something bad and you're mad, like you get mad at Goose. Where it's like, Goose is not fully responsible for his actions. But I'm gonna... He's a dog anyways. Yeah, like... Yes.
00:32:47
Speaker
And it's just very... Yeah, it was hard. I was worried that it wasn't... I was like, is this book in? Like, were I amm hoping it ends? Or I was worried that she would still be, like, with them because I was like, they're horrible. I hate this part. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sad that the there's two eyes to die there, which they showed in the show like that one other eyes to die. I don't know if that comes back again.
00:33:14
Speaker
but Well, no, I won't say anything. but i Yeah, I did appreciate that the show added, like, Ryma being, like, taken by the Aes Sedai. By the Sanchan? Yes, sorry, by the Sanchan. Aes Sedai would have been preferable. And how, like, Ryma tried to kill herself rather than go, but there were too many and they overcame her, right? Yeah. And it's just, like, dark. ay But I feel like
00:33:45
Speaker
Rina being collared in the end is better justice than going and killing her. Yeah. And in the book, she collars her and in the in the show, she kills her. And I understand like killing is like an easy, quick ah catharsis revenge. And maybe that's more necessary in a ah tv show TV show. But like, you know, making her into the dog,
00:34:15
Speaker
And being like, you get found here, this is your life. And you're going to be like, you were treating me. That's rough. It's darker too. It is. Yeah. Cause death's easy out, right? Like, no, you're going to, like, atwaine's like look at her say you're going to be the slave now. Yeah. Right. And that's like a lot darker, I feel like, and which is weird to say that death is. Well, I mean, it's the idea of like, yeah.
00:34:43
Speaker
Is it easier like if you have a murderer who's on like death row? is is Some people believe that like death is the easy way out. you know if you it spending ah like Spending life in prison isn't like solitary confinement or whatever. you know Well, in a Wheel of Time sense, you're going to be reincarnated. Oh, yeah. So isn't death the easy way out? Just start your life over again. You messed this one up bad, kid. Yeah.
00:35:08
Speaker
uh though i don't know how long you necessarily have to wait between spinning outs because presumably rand has not been reborn since loose there in telement yeah which is a long time hmm yeah let me think about that let's see what else were you talking about i thought the sound chain when um I don't know if they addressed this in the show or not, but in the book, they talked about how that when I said I came up with the way that they do the whole sold and demonic thing. I thought that was really interesting. I realized that I don't all think so. It's because they're ah those things are basically Taron girls, right? Oh, yeah. Okay. So they're I said I made. um What I think is interesting about that is it really made me think of the Handmaid's Tale.
00:36:00
Speaker
Yeah, because it was the wife in The Handmaid's Tale and who had before the books, right, been previously like pushing for this patriarchal. Yeah. And then when it happens and she's captured by it, and she's unhappy, right? Basically, like all these women who fight for patriarchy,
00:36:21
Speaker
and And fighting for patriarchy gives them power, yeah but then once they win, the power is taken from them. And that's exactly what happened to this Aes Sedai, right? Because she invented this to control other Aes Sedai, and then it was used to
Historical and Gender Dynamics
00:36:34
Speaker
control her.
00:36:34
Speaker
Yeah, I had this thought when I i was like, oh, something smart about ah feminism and and and ah closeness to power, like, yeah you know, and how, ah you know, you can, you know, they say that, and you know, certain women, like, usually it's like white feminists, you know.
00:36:53
Speaker
want to control other parts of the women, you know, other and, you know, their proximity to power. I guess they're not necessarily feminists, but the proximity to power, you know, that's not my problem. It's their problem. And then it becomes their problem. Right. It's it's like, right, like, like tradwives or something. Yes. Right. Like, i if you really had your way, you wouldn't be allowed to make these videos.
00:37:20
Speaker
right Like if you win, you would not be an influencer, right? like Because you wouldn't be able to do anything without your husband's permission or blessing or, you know, right why do you need to speak, right? Like, i and influence other people. And so it's just like, that's exactly what this, is and it's such a throwaway line. And like, I mean, I've read this book six times wow and this is the first time that it was like, wow. Wow, yeah.
00:37:46
Speaker
but so Yeah, that that that hit me too. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. And this book was written in like 1980. Yeah, that is very interesting and by a dude. Yeah. Because now you would it would be a different Yeah, I mean, i i don't I think Robert Jordan was a feminist, right? It's just that he he, like we talked about last time, he he's locked in his era, yeah right? And there are things he he couldn't imagine. and And I know one of the things people really pick out with these books is the gender binary and that it has an enforced gender binary, though we will talk about that more later.
00:38:20
Speaker
Because it gets weird. i But, i ah you know, aye trans issues were not something on the top of people's tongue in 1990. So neither was even being gay or lesbian. Yeah. And so like those things were not things he was thinking about. He was thinking about just like cis men, cis women, the power struggles between them.
00:38:47
Speaker
Yeah, and how they impact each other and he was kind of exploring that topic and I think that you know 14 books is a pretty Large exploration.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah And the Shan Chan are super interesting right because one of the things about so mainland People generally call it Randland in fantasy world. So the main continent, right? Women are on top and it's partly because they have magic. And Sean Chan, the women both do and don't have magic, right? Like the women who have magic are enslaved. The women who can learn magic and slave them. i But their leader right now is, they were founded by a dude. They were, Artur Hawkewing sent his son
00:39:38
Speaker
that's who their founder is, right? But they're led by an empress and their heir is a girl. Yeah, they mentioned empress. Yeah. So, uh, Sean Chan actually seems like it has a pretty gender equal society. Uh, it's just a really weird society. It's not, and it's very caste driven, but there is a way to exceed to the higher classes based on merit, which is what, um,
00:40:05
Speaker
Oh gosh, I just forgot her name. But the one who was on the ship with Bael Domon was like, she wants to- Oh yeah. She wants to rise. Is that Siroth? No, it wasn't Siroth. Siroth was the bad lady. Yeah, Siroth's a dark friend. dad and dark um but But she's hoping to rise up to the blood, which once again, Sean Chan is America, so I think that's very interesting. And I had no idea about that.
00:40:29
Speaker
until we so i kind of read and listen to the audiobook because i don't have that much time to sometimes and i want to you know there's down times where i can't read a book but i listen to the audiobook and then you know i thought the iel accent was like eastern european so i thought that mandy had and i thought it would be like scottish or something maybe because of their red hair that's so but she was like nope that tracks and i was like okay then she told me that the Sanchan should have Texas accents. And they did in the audiobook. And I was like, wow, I didn't know this. And in the TV show, they have American accents. They i don't go full Texas, but they are Americans. I didn't even pick that up. So I get a rewatch. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, Robert Jordan is playing with mythology, right? Like,
00:41:18
Speaker
ah and And there's actually, I have ah ah a whole other book that is kind of written about by Livingston is his name. He wrote, he's a scholar and he wrote this book about the different mythologies that Robert Jordan was pulling from because the idea is is it's all circular, right? So like the idea that King Arthur is based off of people from this era, both Arthur Hawkwing and Rand Althor. Right? Okay. Both of those are Arthur, right? Because after a while, the myth, the legend becomes myth, you know, fades away and we're just pulling things together. um ah So, you know, Gawain is Gawain and the Green Knight. Yeah. Right? Gallad is Ser Gallahad.
00:42:02
Speaker
Right? Like, of course, he's perfect. ah Elaine is Elaine, like, you know, like, all these people are a Thurian, and then there's a lot of other mythos, he pulls in and stuff, and he's doing that on purpose. And then people are multiple things, like Matt, which we can't talk about. i Probably can't even talk about till like, Towers of Midnight, which is the second to last book. Oh, wow. But, aye but Perrin,
00:42:31
Speaker
You know, he has a hammer and an axe. He's Thor. Thor. I'm just throwing that out there. right uh so it's it's all like wow yeah connected that's very cool and and agu is guineeverre ahgu alvier yeah and get that yeah but uh but none of them are directly these people right it's just like their stories influence these other stories is kind of the idea okay so speaking of which shan chan people influencing other stories uh
00:43:08
Speaker
The Battle of Thaum.
Moral Ambiguity and Allegiances
00:43:10
Speaker
The Heroes of the Horn. Just everything. Inktar. The Horn. Fane. Matt.
00:43:20
Speaker
It's a lot. It is a lot. And Inktar. He wasn't a dark friend in the show. I i think there's hints in the show and I think they probably had to cut it for time. Okay.
00:43:33
Speaker
But even like, he was getting like real extra there at the end, like, we just get horned, I need the horn, I need it. Well, I assume the horn is the task given to him by the dark one. Because in the dark friend social, everyone's given a specific task. ah And so his was the horn, which it gives him the opportunity to both betray or fulfill, right? Either way, he needs the horn. a But yeah, he's like, you know, if Selena, if Selene had come to him,
00:44:01
Speaker
And like, the horn, glory, he would have been like, yes. Yeah. Well, for him, is he like... So I know he got this task from the dark one, but his motivation was keeping his nation together. So is he like really a dark friend is like, you know, or is he just, you know, I guess it's the whole like, are you selling yourself out for... So you sold your soul. Yeah.
00:44:31
Speaker
maybe you sold your soul for a good reason but you still sold it yeah right like and this is like a literal selling of the soul because you swear oaths to the dark one oh yeah yeah i'm swearing oaths to someone in this book and those oaths supersede all other oaths and break them which is why lie andron can lie uh which is oh what ultimately threw nine day of an eggweed for a loop because the black object can lie yeah that's yeah Yeah, they're not bound by the three oaths because they're bound by their oaths to the dark one. ah so And the Sanchan have oaths and that's why Vayne didn't care about those oaths because, okay, that makes sense. And that's why Siroth and Lindran can have this whole conversation about a different master, right? Okay. i So they all, even the Forsaken, they all have very different reasons for selling their soul, right? Like,
00:45:24
Speaker
a I don't think this is a spoiler because I think it's in the show. like Ishmael clearly wants the world to end. Yeah. like Also, he's the only one who's right. I don't i don't even know what to tell you. like The dark one wants to end the world. Everybody else thinks the dark one's going to give them power. like What do you think is going to happen when the dark one's in control? I don't. So at least Ishmael and the dark one are on the same page. like But everybody else is crazy. um But they they all have completely
00:45:54
Speaker
different motivations for joining the dark, but they're still bound to him. And so they're still working on the side of evil, right? Except a few, maybe, like Inktar, who regret their oaths. Yeah. You know, and there's that white cloak saying, if you will, that no one is so far from the dark that they can't see the light. No, far in the dark that they can't see the light. And, uh, which is an interesting, but the,
00:46:24
Speaker
Okay, I can't. I'm about to spoil things. I don't want to spoil. There's reasons why Inktar was only able to do what he did when he did it. Okay. And... Yes.
00:46:35
Speaker
ay Betraying an oath to the Dark One will kill you. Oh, okay. So Inktar is able to make that his final stand. Because he's gonna die anyway. Because he's gonna die anyway. Right? aye So... Yeah, I was bummed.
00:46:51
Speaker
Because he was their friend. Yeah. Even Rand says he was still my friend, our friend, whatever. He's like, he was still my friend, which is good on Rand, but, you know, still. Yeah. I mean, it sets up kind of the moral grayness of, yeah, like, yeah, yeah this is very much a fight versus good and evil, but the people in it are people. Like, are the Shanshan good just because they're on the side of the light? No, they are not good. Right? Is Inktar evil just because he's on the side of the dark?
00:47:20
Speaker
Right? Like, but they're, the Shan Chan will be fighting on the side of the light at the last battle. And Ing Tar would have been on the side of the dark, right? Like the things you're, it's very complicated. It's very real. Like it's real. Like one one of the complaints people have about the books with the Shan Chan is kind of how their story ends and all of that. Cause people, people want what Eguin wants. They want retribution. They want vengeance, but at some point there's real politic.
00:47:47
Speaker
Right? Right. You have to make agreements with nations you don't like. I guess World War II. Like, yes we had to work with the Soviets. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, just because the Soviets were allied with us, did that make them good? No. Right? Or other countries. Just because Saudi Arabia is allied with us, does that make them good? Yeah. Right? i And just, you know, there's there's a lot of stuff. There's real, yeah. Everything's not black or white. Well, and it's kind of cool because When you're Rand and their age, everything to you is kind of black and white, at least it was for me.
00:48:22
Speaker
oh lie you know um you know There's a good side, there's a bad side, and you're either good or bad, but when you grow up, you realize that that isn't real. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what Rand is like speed running.
00:48:35
Speaker
right because he's the dragon reborn and so there's no time yeah uh and he's learning all this very quickly and because it's so quick sometimes he doesn't learn things in the right way and uh you're like oh that's the lesson you took from that right and it's like as a character he can't even see like If he's IEL, he's not from the two rivers, or if he's not Tam's son, you know, he's still Tam's son, even though he's adopted, but he can't see that. Right. Yeah. Like his IEL father.
00:49:09
Speaker
did not raise him. never He doesn't even know his name. like you know like i Just because you have a different father doesn't mean you're, you know what I mean? he But he can't process that. Because I guess a lot of that is when you're young. You're either do this or you're that. Which, I'm trying to figure out how I can say this, which is why I think Gallad is so interesting. Because I think Gallad is the only character in the books. He does view Morgase as his mother.
00:49:37
Speaker
right? Even though she's not. And I think that gives a good counter example to kind of Rand's narrative of like, if I'm adopted, how can Tam love me? You know, like, how can I be from the two rivers if I'm adopted? And I'm like, child. I mean, I mean, I feel like this is a very real identity crisis he's having. Like, I don't i don't want to diminish that. Like, obviously this is something, like, adopted people struggle with and and go through. And it's not just that he's adopted, it's that he's the dragon reborn. Yeah, there's a whole lot. I mean, he's magical and people want to kill him. And he might go insane, you know. And sometimes is.
00:50:13
Speaker
Yeah, there's no might about it. He will go insane. So, yeah. Rand's crisis is very real and he lives in a society where people aren't adopted, yeah right? So it's like, what does that mean? Even Gallad, right, doesn't share a last name with Elaine and Gawain, but that's because they, Elaine and Gawain come from a matriarchal family and Gallad comes from a patriarchal family, right? Yeah. i but They all share a father. Like, Gallad's their half-brother. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. But Elaine and Gawain have a different last name because it's the woman's line that matters in Andor, at least in the royal family. Anyway, I just i just think that's interesting because there's not very many examples in the books of adoption. So you pretty much have Gallad and Rand. Yeah.
00:51:10
Speaker
and other things I would like
Rand's Identity as the Dragon Reborn
00:51:13
Speaker
to say. But yeah, when I think so little to like, like Rand has this idea of himself that is like really strong that like grounds him, you know, I am from the two rivers, I am a shepherd, I am son of Tam. And it's like, no, you're not really any of those things.
00:51:28
Speaker
Like that's kind of, you know, that's a true thought. But you can be all of those things. Yeah. At the same time, you can be. Right. Like being the dragon reborn doesn't counteract the fact that you're from the two rivers or that you were raised a shepherd or that you're Tam's son. Exactly. You just also happen to be the other thing. That's what we're, yeah. You can't see that. No, I, I, and I, yeah, he's going to struggle with that. I mean, eventually he's going to accept the dragon reborn thing. The next book is called the dragon dragon reborn. So, you know, spoilers. Rand is the dragon reborn. Uh, but, um,
00:51:59
Speaker
Yeah. It's very, it's very interesting. So the Battle of Falm is one of my disappointments in the show. And we kind of talked about this, but i these books, you know, there are a couple of scenes. I mostly don't remember scene by scene, what happens, right? Because there's 14 books. Yeah. And there are a few scenes that are like,
00:52:19
Speaker
just in my head, like all the time. Like I can just conjure them. and And one is the prologue of the Eye of the World, right? And another is the Battle of Falm. And there are others that we will not speak of yet. But I am just like, you don't even get it from Rand's perspective. And you get this like at the very end. I mean, you get it from his perspective. But what other people saw was him and Ishmael fighting in the sky. Right. And I always imagine this like they're like they're giants in the sky.
00:52:47
Speaker
Right? Because people can, like, there's drawings, like, and you can clearly make out Rand's features. So they couldn't have been, like, tiny up there. Yeah. Right? But in the show, they're on top of a tower? Yeah. How would anyone have seen this? Like, and I just... Yeah, I think, like I said, like, I think they were restricted with budget and, like, how do you get two dudes fighting in the sky? I like that. would That's an interesting visual, like,
00:53:15
Speaker
How do we do this on the on film? Yeah. So, um yeah, it was cool. Like in the book, it was cool. And then Rand realizing that his fight was affecting the fight. Like his Ishmael's fight was affecting the actual fight. Yeah, when he went forward and the heroes of the horn would go forward. and When he fell back, they fell. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:44
Speaker
Yeah, that was very cool. They could have done something like that in the show. But the show also only had like 20 heroes of the horn, as opposed to like 100. And also, I said this last time, but to support my point, the book did say the heroes of the horn were dressed in clothes from every age. So once again, one of the heroes of the horn in the show should have been in like battle fatigues or World War II outfit or something, right? Like something that modern viewers could latch onto. Yeah, I'm curious about this horn.
00:54:13
Speaker
Like now we have this horn, like every battle, we just blow it and these dudes show up and these people, all these ladies, these. So only the person who blew it can blow it again and it work, right? They said that. Okay. So only Matt could blow it. Okay. So Matt would have to specifically be there, but no, they don't use it that, uh, uh, flippantly okay because they need to make sure it's there at the last battle.
00:54:37
Speaker
Okay. Which means Matt needs to be at the mask but last battle. So we gotta keep Matt alive. We gotta keep him alive! It's like he's in a Taverin and important. Yeah. Yeah. But if he dies, then the horn's up for grabs again. Oh, okay. So... I didn't realize that. Yeah. Okay. I also want to say that that when Arter Hawkwing shows up, the heroes of the horn, whether Rand is accepted or not, this is when Perrin and Matt accept that Rand is the dragon horn, right? Very clearly. I think I took a picture of the page because it was just like, you know, uh, Arter says, uh, we have come to the horn, but we must follow the banner and the dragon. And Matt's like, it's true. And Perrin's like, I'll hold the banner, right? Like they have accepted, like they're like,
00:55:32
Speaker
Oh my God. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Yeah. Which they've been getting the whole book, right? Because the I.A. will keep coming up to him and being like, hey, we're looking for this guy. He who comes with the dawn, our Kakarand. He's supposed to be one of us, but come from you guys, which is really weird. Have you seen him? Yeah. And they're like, Rand. They're like, Rand, I'm looking for him. It's not Rand. It's not Rand. No, you don't know what you're talking about. yeah It's Rand. It's Rand. Yeah. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. But all these different cultures have their own mythology about the Dragon Reborn, so the IEL don't call them the Dragon Reborn, right? They call them he who comes with the dawn, the Kakaran. It's probably not how you pronounce that. You'll have to tell me how Rosamund Pike pronounces it in the next book. Okay. Because the IEL come out in force in the next book.
00:56:26
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, we got to get a have Avienda, right? Mm hmm. Because she knows maiden. Yes, the father is me. The maidens of the spear. Yeah. beallyran but They were They were in the show. Yeah. But we didn't get them in the book yet. Yeah. So all of that is still coming and Hopper. Yeah. Yeah. No spoilers.
00:56:51
Speaker
assessment um And while I find the white cloaks annoying, aye I do appreciate what Jeff Bornhold does in this book for the white cloaks, which is like he is clearly not a dark friend. Even though Iman Valda totally is, there's no way he's not. Iman Valda. He sucks. We hate him. Yeah.
00:57:12
Speaker
He's out there with Leander and doing bad things. Yeah. Yeah. Being very, very bad. But Jeff Bornhold is a true believer. Yeah. And he's getting frustrated with the questioners. i But he goes out there and he dies. And then... So the White Clothes think that Isodai are total evil. Yes. And they collect Isodai rings or whatever. In the show. In the show. Okay, that's in the show.
00:57:42
Speaker
are they gonna be like which side are they gonna be fighting on cuz yeah a big smile the mandy this is a spoiler smile
00:57:53
Speaker
i It's gonna take a good leader to ah corral the white cloaks on an appropriate side of a battle. Okay. And I will leave it at that. I am in fact pretty sure that I have at some point in our relationship spoiled this for you and you have just forgotten it and that is okay.
00:58:18
Speaker
Okay, probably on Twitter, but you don't read my tweets that closely so it's okay. Well, I quit Twitter. That's true, you quit Twitter. Yeah, so. i But I have strong feelings about white cloaks. I will find out. Eventually. Eventually. But then you'll be like, oh, that's what Mandy was talking about.
00:58:40
Speaker
Uh, but yes, yes. Cause the, uh, the white club, like every nation at this point, like there are dark friends and there are forsaken out there trying to shape how things
Role of the Forsaken and Emon's Field Five
00:58:54
Speaker
go. Yeah. Right. And we, the only two we have met are Ishmael and land fear, even in the show. Right. And then the season two, we met another one. Yeah. At the very end of the season. Yeah. ah But then the books, there are 13.
00:59:08
Speaker
Right. And so there are going to be Forsaken doing things, counteracting Rand, like pulling their own strings. Yeah. Cause you can also view the Forsaken as like to Varen, but they're like negators, right? Like they pull their own strings. They create their own little mini patterns. Right. Um, and, uh, they're out there messing with stuff. Great. Yeah. Cause it wasn't hard enough.
00:59:39
Speaker
Yep. Well, the dark one can't just be a rollover. You got to have 14 books. There's lots to go. There's lots to go. Not to mention just the politics of the world, right? Because how many ice and I are going to think Rand is the dragon reborn. How many are thinking he's the false dragon. How many are going to think they have to control him, right? Because Moraine and Varen are flukes.
01:00:02
Speaker
yeah right like They're like, oh no, you can't control him. He needs to do what he needs to do. And then there are going to be other people. You saw this in the show, right? Other people who are like, we need to control him. Yeah. Which is one of the things that didn't like about the show, by the way, it was Maureen creating the dragon around the tower because it made it seem like Maureen is controlling events. And like, she's like, oh, I've read the prophecy.
01:00:23
Speaker
so I know what's supposed to happen so I'm gonna make it happen as opposed to those things happening naturally like Rand being twice Heron branded right? That happens in this book like yes twice he's marked to set his path like and those happen ran it's not like he goes out and brands himself yeah with a Heron right and then in the the book they follow the banner because the heroes of the horn need it and so Peron says he'll carry it and it's like but they found the banner in the end of book one, Maureen, the only thing she forced was making him carry it with him in his saddlebags, not like anything else, right? Yeah. And that's the thing about these prophecies is they're going to happen whether Rand likes it or not. Yes. Yeah. yeah
01:01:07
Speaker
Yeah, I thought Maureen disappeared for a little big chunks of this book. She's gone for most of the book. Yeah, she's not in this book very much. So and she just like at the end, like, Hey, which is really interesting, because the show decided to make her the main character, right? And like, there's large chunks of the book she's not in. Well, and then like, yeah, in the show, they had that whole thing with her and Suan and all that stuff. Is that how we say it?
01:01:31
Speaker
I think it's technically swan, won but I say Sue-Ann, like a Southerner. Sue-Ann. Sue-Ann Santee. But yeah, so that was interesting too. Cause I was like, where's Maureen? Why is it all, just letting let all of this happen? But yeah, I guess she's letting it happen because it has to happen. Yeah. oh And she's doing other stuff. At least Varen was there to like, corral look crazy. Yeah.
01:01:58
Speaker
I have very strong Varen feelings. My twitter is at brownajah so you know obviously I am not in any way biased towards members of the brownajah. Those who have read all the books you know what I mean. So uh there's just so much with all these characters like you have only like scratched the surface yeah of like Who they are yeah like Matt like he's gonna be a completely different character in two books You know like but all this had to happen for him to be that and then there are like characters where I'm like This character is like a major player a main character in the book and they don't even exist in the book yet Yeah, like Avienda right like and others who I can't even name So
01:02:46
Speaker
Well, so much to look forward to. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, that's, instead of looking at it, like 14 books is daunting. It'd be like, wow, 14 books. There's so much to dive into. And if you were here for the character development, it is going to happen. And then, you know, when you finish the books, you should just go back and reread the first three chapters and just be like, wow. Wow. They changed so much, right? They were such babies. And then they like,
01:03:13
Speaker
Do you think he, when he set out to write this, he had a whole like plan or did it like? Robert Jordan had a vague plan, but he is what we call a gardener writer. Yeah. So things just kind of grow. George RR Martin is also a gardener. Uh, Brandon Sanderson is an architect, a plotter. He plots a book and it happens. Yeah. That's why there's like 12 billion books on i a bookshelf by Brandon Sanderson. So I believe originally he sold a six book series to Tor. Okay.
01:03:43
Speaker
It's 14. And even Brandon Sanderson who finished it, right? Like he was told that he was writing one book, A Memory of Light. And then he's like dealing with all these notes and like reading through the whole series and looking at everything he needs to tie up. And he doesn't even tie up everything. And he's like, it's going to be three books. Oh, wow. Yeah. so um he just gets going huh yeah yeah which which is you know part of george r martin's struggle too right and why it's taking him i i think mandy's theory taking him so long to write these books because he has all these threads he's created and how do you weave them back together in the end right um and or sometimes you have to prune something she's just like what did i do yeah i mean i i think he knows where he's going and it's just about yeah weaving the pattern in wheel of time sense uh whereas uh
01:04:33
Speaker
At the end of the day, no matter how many characters are introduced in the Wheel of Time, ultimately you know that the Eman's Field Five are the main ones, right? And the old they kind of get like separate coteries around them, like characters you associate with them, and then sometimes characters might, you know, hop between those, but in the words of the show, there are tavern, right? So there are main five threads pulling all the other threads towards them. Of course, in the book, only the boys are Taverin, which I have problems with. Yeah. Uh, Eguin is a Taverin. There is no way. There is no way. Nainave, I can rationalize not being a Taverin. Eguin? Mm-hmm. You don't even know. Like, so much stuff happens around here that you're like, this makes no sense unless she's a Taverin. Like, why would you, like, like, like just the fact
01:05:19
Speaker
That she gets kidnapped by the Sean Chan and they get set free. And now she knows all these battle weaves. She knows how to fight. What do you need that for? The last battle? Yeah. Like, it's already like you can see the pattern setting her up to be who she needs to be. And as much as that was a traumatizing incident for her, the ice that I can't teach her those things. Yeah. Right. So... I'm here for it. Yeah. There's so much trauma to come. Oh my gosh.
01:05:45
Speaker
All right. Anything else about The Great Hunt we want to talk about? Who's your favorite character so far? In the books. That's tough. I don't know if I have a favorite one so far. Like, I really like learning about the Aes Sedai and that whole thing. So I'm really interested in Moraine, mostly. A lot. And then, um wow, I don't know if I have a favorite character yet.
01:06:10
Speaker
ah um We'll see. It's okay. More are coming. So like I said, I like identify with a Gwen a little bit. My name is so stubborn. I love her. So stubborn. She's a queen. Yeah. May we all achieve that level of stubbornness in our lives. It's like impressive how stubborn she is. You just, you know, that Nynave is never just going to go somewhere just because the wind blows that way, except Leandrin.
01:06:40
Speaker
Yeah, so that's all. Oh my gosh. Okay. ah We're not gonna re litigate that. So and then I'm yeah, I'm interested in laying that whole thing. So to so the gate got glad Gallad Gallad and got one. So technically, he is glad. Okay, cuz it's Galadrid. It's like Galadriel. Right? Right. So it's like Galadrid Domadrid. But I read these books as a child. Gallad like salad.
01:07:08
Speaker
That's my dog's name. Yeah. So, and then I, what I really, one thing I did want to say was at the end of the book, I really like reunions. So I was kind of sad when Rand woke up and Iguin and Nae Nae were already at the white tower. I was bummed because I was like, can't we just have it for a minute where they're like together and like happy and for a second. But yeah.
01:07:35
Speaker
Yes. Robert Jordan is terrible about reunions. Oh my gosh. i Yes. yeah but Well, because I love it in a book when you you know everyone's like here and here and then they all get together. And it's so interesting because like I've forgotten like i have I've forgotten the furniture movie that happens in the next book. Like, I know who's together in book four, and I know who's together at the end of book two. And I'm like, how do we get from there to there? Like, what? what Why is it going there? Why is Matt there? Why is Iran there? Why is like, you know, I'm a repair in this.
01:08:12
Speaker
But like, I'm just like, the furniture moving that's going to happen in the third book, I do not recall why everyone is where they are. And so I will be interested to see that because I'm just like, I very vividly know who is with Rand in book four. And I'm like, all those people are not with Rand at the end of book two. Yeah. so So book three happens. yeah Some stuff's gonna happen it in book three. I obviously remember the big event in book three. I mean, it's on the cover of book three. How can you forget it? But ah yeah, I'll be interested. We need to read book three and then you come back with your avienda thoughts because I think you're gonna love her. Okay. I mean, she's in the show. Oh, a big shout out to men too. Yeah, sorry. Yeah.
01:08:55
Speaker
I was liking men a whole lot. She's cute. We like her. Yeah. Yeah. And she was like, I don't want to wear your dresses. I'm going to put on these pants. And then the Sean Chan make her wear dresses again. Yeah. Like, you wear pants. People won't know what class you are. And they're going to treat you like a servant. And she's like, oh my gosh, I just want to be able to visit a Gwayne. Yeah. My friend who's a slave. But it is weird that they let men visit her. Like, I always i thought that weird it was weird too. I thought it was weird they kept her alive at all.
01:09:23
Speaker
I mean, I don't think they have any reason to kill men. Like the Sean Chan don't come in and kill everybody. They come in unless you aren't going to swear the oaths or whatever. They're like, we're just here. We're in your art people. Why have you forsaken your oaths? Get in line. If we kill you all, then we have to repopulate Randland. And we're not going to do that. So, you know. OK.
01:09:42
Speaker
Yeah, but men has no magic. She hasn't told them about her visions, which by the way, Sean Chan are gonna love. And that is not sarcastic. Because if there's one thing that Sean Chan believe in, it's omens. So someone who could see omens, that's a
01:10:00
Speaker
top of the line right there.
Spoiler Apology and Episode Conclusion
01:10:02
Speaker
Uh, so, uh, sorry, that was like a minor spoiler. I'm sorry. That's okay. no no here for it I have feelings. Okay. Well, we'll get there. Book three. We will. We're not going to get there in book three, but we will get there. All right. Thank you for coming, Jessica. Thank you for having me.
01:10:26
Speaker
We hope you enjoyed this episode and that you'll join us again next month on October 15th. I'll be welcoming back Rachel Gleishman to continue our discussion of the Netflix horror show Midnight Mass with episode five entitled Book Five, Gospel.
01:10:39
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Mandemonium. You can find me, Mandy, on Twitter at brown underscore aja. That's A-J-A-H. You can also find the podcast on Twitter at MandemoniumPod, and we also have a podcast Facebook page. Theme music for this podcast was created by Skips of Beat Music. Thank you so much for listening, and we hope you come back next time.