Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Stepping In Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Klein. In this episode, I'm joined by Fran Benjamin, who's a New Ventures West graduate as well as a faculty member.
Speaker: And they are a managing partner of Good Works Consulting that centers equity, diversity, and and inclusion in everything that they do. They're also parent of Isadora and Frida, spouse of Jason, and a certified Hatha yoga instructor.
Speaker: Outside of those things, they also are a cabaret and drag performer as well as a singer. And i'm also joined by Dr. Kevin Sansbury, who's a behavioral scientist, executive coach, who finds joy in supporting organizations to build inclusive, authentic, and healthy workplace cultures.
Speaker: He's also the host of the Toxic Leadership podcast and enjoys hiking with his wife, Barbara, as well as being an avid powerlifter and aspiring runner. This is a really enriching conversation I found myself in with these two.
Speaker: ah We really get into some of the history of what is now called diversity, equity and inclusion work, as well as stories um from their work, as they've both been in this for quite a long time and where they see it heading.
Speaker: So I'm excited that you're tuning in and look forward to hearing from you in the comments.
Speaker: Kevin Fran, I'm so happy to be in conversation with you two today. Yes, hi. I know, we were doing a little warm-up conversation before I pushed record here, and we may have to do a part two based on just some of the things we were seeding in the front end here.
Speaker: so So I'd love to start, kind of just jump right in really. And one of the things we were talking about earlier is as you've been involved in the diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging space, um it's either evolving, there's always learning going on.
Speaker: And I'm curious for yourselves, how you've been impacted and what you're learning, say even just in the last three or four years.
Speaker: Go Kevin. Yeah. Well, for for me, um yeah I kind of started off really idealistic, to be honest. And um have so many sticky problems I want to solve for from a legacy standpoint. And I was like, you know, I started off really large of like I wanted to solve toxic leadership in the workplace. And I had started my own podcast and started doing that kind of work. And i actually did my research in that area. And I wanted to work in a lot of inclusion spaces and I wanted to, anytime somebody was in the news for something like aberrant, I wanted to be there, like to help and fix it, you know? um
Speaker: For me, as things evolved around me, whether it was, um you know, political or, you know, in the in culturally, you know, where I really started diving into is the change within me and really looking at my my own mental wellbeing and um how I show up.
Speaker: um And so to be honest, my aperture like got smaller as I've as I've been in this work for the better. And I can share I'll share more about that. But that's that's really how I would sum up my you know, what I've what I've been thinking about.
Speaker: Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, well, we're going to go back to that in a moment. But what about for you, Francis?
Speaker: Um, gosh, I mean, will say that, so I started in this work a very long time ago.
Speaker: In many ways, it'll be kind of, let's say, like 20 years um this coming year. And when I started doing ah the work that is now often referred to as diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging,
Speaker: Justice, anti-racism, anti-oppression. There's um a lot of words that are appended to this acronym. um I was working for a global corporation kind of by accident. I didn't want to be working there.
Speaker: um But I was working. I did some nights and weekends volunteer work for a department that was then called Valuing Differences. So we didn't even talk about diversity, we were just trying to value one another. And at the time it was really focused on things like trying to use inclusive language, trying to gain domestic partner benefits for same-sex couples on a state-by-state basis.
Speaker: it was anti-harassment training. Um, and that has evolved so much, um, since then and you know like I sort of see these phases since then. In the 2016 era of DEIB, we were seeing unconscious bias training or implicit association training as like the thing that will solve for all people. Everyone will have an inclusive environment. It will have great diversity if we can just address our unconscious biases.
Speaker: um And of course that's insufficient. um And for me, um um most lately um I've seen like my own, the experience of my own identity as a white queer non-binary person um be wrapped up in the liberation of others. And that's sort of my learning edge.
Speaker: um As I think about the work, um I'm always drawn to um the quote, um And it's attributed to several people, but um we are not one of us free until we are all free. Emma Lazarus, also um Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And so um now my work is to always be thinking about how do we disrupt systems? And when I say systems, I'm talking about resource flows, policy programs, practices, um decision-making authority, such that we can...
Speaker: liberate the human experience as a collective and see our own liberation tied up in that of someone else. um I don't know that's fully answering your question, but that's kind of my journey, my arc and what I've been trying to learn and be better at lately. Yeah. So one maybe follow for you, then we'll um come back to Kevin's How have you been impacted by that trajectory for the last few years?
Speaker: and I mean, I think it my how I have been impacted is a journey from kind of self and safety to um release of self and safety.
Speaker: um Like identification with the collective. So like I entered the work because I was ah super weird queer kid, frankly, at the time working in a staunchly conservative corporate environment. And I was like, I don't feel safe here.
Speaker: And so I started doing this like originally volunteer work and then I moved formally into a corporate diversity role um because I was like, I have to protect myself. Like it's, I'm doing the work for me.
Speaker: um And then i think that how I have personally been impacted by it over the past 20 years, but by doing the work um is just, Letting, seeing the ways in which I am safe, seeing the ways in which I do have power, seeing the ways in which my power can be shared or even relinquished for the betterment of those that are marginalized sitting right next to me.
Speaker: um So that this, like whatever collective I'm in can thrive um is sort of. how that journey has impacted me and and like a a million sort of touch points along the ways and things that I've personally experienced or been witness to.
Speaker: um But maybe we can get into that down the line. well Well, that's a really juicy juxtaposition about how I feel. um i like that you said that, Fran. It's more so relinquishing of self for um the basis of collective and you know collective growth and things like that.
Speaker: I actually took the opposite approach because I didn't feel like I, I, I never, I haven't felt like systems that I, that, that I were in were um conducive to me as ah as a self, you know? So like, you know, I took the, I took the, ah you know, my journey has taken me to the opposite end of like, I've had to mask myself or I felt like I've had to mask myself to survive in so many different environments that I lost myself.
Speaker: what's who's who the self was i guess i would say personally and my journey has been more, uh, self-oriented for that basis of reclamation and reclaiming and rediscovering who I am sans the system. You know what i'm saying? And like, and like really in becoming my most powerful, my most powerful version of who I am.
Speaker: um that's kind of the, it's like really interesting, uh, really interesting difference. I wanted to point out. Um, one thing I'll say, ah ah related to that is kind of like, you know, how people talk about, you know, they want to take their, um they want to take, take their space. They want to like be seen. They want to take their own, you know, basically I'm taking the the the metaphorical microphone back to, because there've been so many times and in this work over the past 15 years um where I felt like myself and people that look like me were erased out of the the data, right?
Speaker: our experiences weren't as a black man, you know, like my experiences were not, I don't feel like my experiences were necessarily brought to like, they weren't real because it was only like 3% of black, black men in this environment. So, oh yeah, you're the minority voice here, you know, so that, that's not the experience of this employee engagement survey, you know?
Speaker: And so for me, um yeah, yeah, I just want to express like, that's really cool that I like, I like that. I like the the differences that, that I'm, that I'm hearing. Yeah. So. Hmm. Hmm.
Speaker: And one thing I'm hearing is maybe, well, I'll check this out with you too and see if it resonates or not. In both of what you're sharing, like I go back to what you were saying, Kevin, like the self-oriented journey, so to speak.
Speaker: But in a way, you can't really give to others if the if there isn't something to give. So in a way, you are coming back to let me collect. I'll use the word collect different aspects of myself so that they're um cohesive and they're with me so that I then can go and ah support others and give myself in that way. Absolutely.
Speaker: And that's what I heard what, Fran, you were up to. It's like, this is not safe. I have to figure out a way to like hold myself here in a way that I can somewhat do something similar, which is feel my individuality, feel I'm okay, feel some sense of some sense of safety.
Speaker: And then when that's true, there's something to stand on to go take action differently. So it's interesting, yes there's kind of like two different ways around it, but there's this thread in that you're both nodding your head and wondering what's going on for you.
Speaker: and I think that, I mean, I'm just thinking a lot of people make their way as practitioners to the work um by way of their their own identity. um and And, you know, um when when I was starting in the work, it wasn't, um and i and, you know, this,
Speaker: this is problematic in many ways, but it wasn't uncommon to see corporations um appoint um an executive in charge of fill in the blank acronym, diversity and inclusion, perhaps let's call it for them um because they were underrepresented. They were someone whose identity was underrepresented in the organization. They had already proven themselves and as an executive in a different function. And they were like, ah,
Speaker: So-and-so can do it. So-and-so queer. So-and-so is black. um Put them in charge of DEI and they step into it by way of their own identity.
Speaker: um And it is like sort of from that place that one has to expand. Yeah.
Speaker: to um learn the the trade, the practice, the the the methods that um yield equitable outcomes for the people involved in whatever system that you're working in.
Speaker: And you kind of have an in that standpoint, you kind of have the hope in that role that your organization actually thought about that role as a strategic pillar versus programmatic or versus just this initiative that we're going to put somebody on, you know. So it's like not only are folks there are a lot of folks who fell in, the you know, people fall into DEI role in their corporation.
Speaker: And yet find out they don't have budget and yet find out it's only you. You're not going to be able to hire anybody to find out you're now in charge for all the heritage month celebrations or the like corporate cookbook of here's the dishes from all the where people lived in our company. You know, like we're celebrating diversity. You know, you're in charge of that stuff when you thought you were going to be doing something different.
Speaker: um Yeah. So like that, that experience, that that friend described really reminds me of like, sometimes that opportunity that people a lot of people get turns into kind of a trap almost in a way.
Speaker: um and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah And if we pick up on this thread here, what are some stories where it's been maybe different than that, where people have found traction with what they were up to?
Speaker: and maybe even for your own sake, where you were working with like an individual person or a corporate client, just some stories of real transformation or change or impact, however you want to classify it, but where things have moved, where there's been movement,
Speaker: Right. Go first. um
Speaker: I think, so I'll come back to this theme of um and maybe, maybe the theme is maybe let letting go um but Let's call it. And so I talked about it from sort of like self to collective, but there's also this element of power, acknowledging one's own power and, and ah learning to share it or relinquish it. And,
Speaker: ah And so the successes that i I have seen have come when folks have been willing to um do something um significant and countercultural to what we have historically been trained, socialized, and rewarded for, at least in the, like, I'll say, like the West, the global North, in the U.S. corporate environment in particular. So, yeah.
Speaker: An example that comes to mind was working um in a coaching dynamic with a couple of executives who um were um ah sort of um jointly but unofficially and yeah leading by way of influence over similar domains within a corporate environment. But it became and sort of that turf war dynamic between them.
Speaker: um And there were significant identity politics involved. So um both gender, race um were involved, and both leaders um were highly qualified, highly experienced um to lead um this function that they were sort of vying for.
Speaker: um And ultimately, what was effective in the work between a conflict that had arisen between them over the domain territory that they led is um was a process of acknowledging first the the power involved by way of identity. So with my whiteness comes a certain amount of access to power, a certain opening of doors that is implicit in ah because of who I am.
Speaker: um ah acknowledging that power, acknowledging um the positional power, acknowledging the deference that comes um to me if I'm male presenting, let's say, and then imagine and sort of blowing that up and imagining something different. So in the case of these two leaders, um we um work together to understand that maybe a non-conventional organizational design might yield greater results. And so
Speaker: led to a co-leadership model over the domain that um that they were both sort of vying for um and and some beautiful results. um So the organization didn't have any other co-leadership models um in in place. And it wasn't something that this industry, and ah it was a life sciences environment, that the industry was very accustomed to.
Speaker: And it took a lot of time codifying of um sort of rules of the road and how one would engage in a co-leadership model.
Speaker: um But that the two leaders brought with them ah ah beautiful followership. um They brought with them because of the um diversity that they brought to the table, the team diversity. So those that were brought into the organization brought were brought in because they were excited to work for a diversity these the the diversity that was represented in this co-leadership model.
Speaker: And so the organization, the discipline, the domain, the department that they led was... um had greater gender and racial diversity as compared to the rest of the organization, above benchmark gender and racial diversity as um compared to the industry and the region.
Speaker: and I think that, and that took some time, but I think that a big part of that was these leaders letting go. So coming back to this letting go theme, like letting go of the self in service of the collective um and being willing to share and relinquish power for the benefit of the team.
Speaker: um So that's one example that kind of bridges the personal and the organizational, because there was a journey that was involved in overcoming the conflict.
Speaker: Yeah, I got a similar theme, I guess, as I think about the story. So to go back to what I was talking about, how sometimes individuals fell into that role and later learned, you know, that they may not have strategic positioning and or they're essentially planning parties and stuff.
Speaker: um I had a person I was coaching and in a coaching capacity and she had to have this conversation with her executives and, um, to the theme of letting go, this didn't come out explicitly, but it was letting go.
Speaker: um The executives really listened to her and they then went on a listening campaign around the organization around, you know, what are the needs from an inclusion and equity standpoint, basically trying to get from the people, like, what, why do we need this? Why why is this important to everybody?
Speaker: um And through that conversation, the leaders, it was about four of them that did this leadership team, leadership, listening to her. um They then went back and worked with each department and created like specific goals that were they're not just they weren't DEI goals. They were like business goals.
Speaker: But like the equity and inclusion was part of it, like innately part of it. And that made it much more like real for the organization, sustainable for the organization. And it became a part of the work.
Speaker: um This was like an environmental ah justice organization. Well, actually, they were they they were like environmental protection, but later changed names. You know, environmental justice became more of the focal point now.
Speaker: um But this happened this happened in in a um in the past two to three years. um But it's something that they're still doing because they made it a part of their work.
Speaker: And so now going back to the person that started that conversation, when she got the role, she started asking those effective questions. um She's still there and she's thriving, not only because um the role is strategic and she's able to do her job and contribute to the organization as a whole and as a collective.
Speaker: um She got that that example of being listened to. And that became a theme in that culture of being listened to, being seen, being valued, being heard. um And she's thriving in that role.
Speaker: but that but that But that took leadership, to Fran's point, that took leadership to let go of ego, to let go of these positional titles, and to actually say, ooh, let's hear what you have to say before we just put you into this symbolic role. like Why do you feel weird about this promotion? It's a promotion. and um They listened, they paused, they reflected, and they took effective action.
Speaker: um and So I've seen, you know, that's a that's something that I've seen happen in ah in a short period of time, but it was really effective. Hmm. Okay, there's so much here to explore. Where are we going go? um One thing that's coming up for me is there's a theme of like letting go. So that's one thing that know maybe we'll go into.
Speaker: The other thing you named, Kevin, was this person asked, she asked effective questions. So I'm wondering, what are effective questions in this space? and then But maybe the place to start...
Speaker: is listening. Like they felt listened to in both stories. There was a quality of listening that took place. And that's to me, sometimes a word that gets thrown around without a lot of um like definition around like, what do we mean when we say listened to Because there is a quality of the listening that you both were talking about that something took place because of how people were listened to, the way in which the listening occurred.
Speaker: So I'm wondering maybe if we go there first. like What was the nature of the listening?
Speaker: I can start. um in In my example, yeah you picked up on that spot on. You picked it up. um because You know, there that those exec, I would tell you, mean, contrast it.
Speaker: Those executives could have listened to that person and said, no, you know, DEI is the thing right now. We're going to do this thing. You know, like just get into the room. You know, they could have they could have listened and already had an answer before they actually listened. Right.
Speaker: They could have did that. um But they chose not to. Like i yeah I specifically stated they paused. Right. So before they made any more announcements, but like before they like took the role and made announcements and did all the news press releases and stuff like that, they paused and they asked questions back like, you know, what what makes you feel this way? You know, so I would say it's more empathetic. It was more empathetic. and And to me, it was compassionate, meaning the the person that they heard from that when they when she got this promotion, they like heard her and where she was.
Speaker: And they suspended kind of preconceived judgments that they may have. And by doing so, it shifted trajectory trajectory, not only of the role that this person was going into, which was like an inaugural DEI VP role, right?
Speaker: It shifted the trajectory of what that role could actually do and be a part of. It also shows it also shifted um the organizational culture in a way, because a lot of organizational cultures are defined by critical incidences.
Speaker: And a lot of times we think about the negative stuff that happens, but this was like a positive critical incident that occurred where now they other projects that come up, they say, hey, remember that listening tour? we They like point back to it positively.
Speaker: But it really did start by they listened empathetically with compassion um and the behavior there that that manifested was they were not afraid to pause and to slow down and to actually reflect on what they heard.
Speaker: Hmm. Yeah. Fran, what would you add or what how would you say it?
Speaker: I have a couple of thoughts. and The first thought is related to the example that I gave, which to be clear, and i I wasn't clear about this, the example that I gave was not about a diversity, equity, and inclusion function. It was about a scientific function and um where that it yielded diversity equity diverse, equitable, and inclusive outcomes. Yeah.
Speaker: I think that in in that example, um the the quality of the listening that occurred was, um I think, related letting of...
Speaker: letting go of um
Speaker: frameworks or beliefs that no longer served in order to understand the the fullness of the person that was before um each executive. So um there were a lot of preconceived notions about, um,
Speaker: the path that it took for the other person to arrive to their role. And and this is where bias, I think, does come in. um um Biases about um ah the amount of effort that I had to invest to get to where I am today. And also, I'll use myself an example as example. As a white person, like I worked hard to get the degrees that i did that I did. I worked hard to land in the role that I did.
Speaker: And me sharing power doesn't mean that we're invalidating the amount of effort that it required of me to arrive to that place. What it acknowledges is that someone else had a different path and is worth sharing power with because of their unique experience, because of their unique, um the unique value, the unique humanity that they'll bring to leadership leadership.
Speaker: um in this scientific role. So I think that the the type of listening that was required in that um was the listening that you can only hear when when you're able to let go of um sort of those frameworks or limiting beliefs about being about um human beings that are different um than yourself.
Speaker: um So that's that's one type of listening that comes to mind for me. But the other thing that ah came up for me when i um heard you highlight this listening piece, Adam, is um that ah oftentimes um in in the realm of DEIB, we need to show our work when we listen. And I'm not talking about the like, um um that the like active listening methodology where we like restate what we heard and we nod with, and we, and we, you know, we share our, um our understanding, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: What I mean is usually to, um usually to um demonstrate you're listening, you act accordingly. And so I have i have a client right now who um one of the um challenges that the the team is facing culturally is that the um folks of color on the team feel unlistened to, unheard, because the ideas that are acted upon tend to come um from employees that also are white.
Speaker: And so listening in that context requires that you then um acknowledge the ideas for the sources from which they came, that you act upon the ideas that are um ah emerging from among the team equitably, irrespective of the identities of those that are held, but it's gonna require that you listen differently. So we are trained to listen to those that are similar to us,
Speaker: um That's just an innate sort of yeah heuristic. um It's like homophily love of self. I'm more likely to listen to those that are similar to me um and give credence to their perspectives. And so it's going to retrain, you're going to have to retrain that you listen differently to then act upon the information that you're given. So that's how you're proving your work, showing your math, so to speak.
Speaker: um Another thing that comes to mind for me is we have to listen to the voices that are oftentimes ah de-centered or at the margins of the work that we do. So um I was in a conversation with a CEO once um ah ah sharing the perspective of a small group of Black women that had been presented to me as a challenge to the system.
Speaker: And um the feedback that I was given to this um ah white man CEO was, that sounds like it's a just a few people.
Speaker: um Can we see if this bears out across our population? and I was like, it's not gonna. I can tell you it's not going to. um And that's why we need to listen. Like you might not get...
Speaker: you know, like statistical significance when you have a small sample size. and I'm sort of talking in um hyperbole here and and metaphor, but like, yes, the nature of this perspective is that it comes from a minority of your people and that is why you should listen to it and why you should act upon it and show your mouth.
Speaker: Yeah, in a way you're pointing to, for me at least, like in some of the evolution of terms, which you've named both of you in different ways, like unconscious bias was one way it started. i don't remember how long ago when you were naming that Fran. And now the words are more um diversity and equity and inclusion.
Speaker: Those to me, are it's ways of training our listening. Are you listening for these things like identity? Yeah. like um diversity, like equity, can you we attune our listening to be really clear to include things that we don't normally include in our listening?
Speaker: But you both think something important, I think fundamental even there though, is that there's room.
Speaker: There's room to receive what the person's saying, like room in your mind, If you're access, you can feel it, room in your body, room in your heart. But that there is a way that you can be imprinted on. Like if you're clay, the word the person's words are like actually printing themselves on the clay.
Speaker: Or like silly putty. Silly putty, you could lay it on a newspaper and then it would like pick up the newspaper. But like really changed by changed by what you're hearing. And this other thing of like, and...
Speaker: ah love what you're pointing to, Fran. Like, there's particular ways that we all filter what we see and what we listen to. and its that's not going to just change automatically.
Speaker: And what you hear and to to do that, you know you know, we mentioned another term is justice. You know, what that whole process of like, being able to look at a population and be like, you know, I might, i might have a minority group, statistically speaking, I might have a smaller group of folks that have a certain experience or what have you.
Speaker: i don't, I want to, in order to like, you know, invoke justice, I can't discount that experience just because I'm not experiencing it. And that's something that's really important. and and And it does require individuals in that positional power,
Speaker: um You know, to really look in the mirror a little bit at that, because that's part of relinquishing power is amplifying those voices. um Another thing I'm going to add to that from what Fran was talking about is, you know, there are times where, you know, I'll hear, you know, from a group of ah black employees or a group of even Gen Z employees. I've heard it from an age standpoint, too, of like, this is our experience and we don't feel like we're being heard or what have you.
Speaker: but then leadership does this thing where they like filter it into their own words or they, they like, it loses its narrative justice. And so I think it's also important as we, as individuals in power, you know, utilize their power appropriately by not like changing, changing the language or speaking for people or, you know, and those kinds of things.
Speaker: um So yeah, that's another way to to to take what Fran just said. That's another way i see as other organizations and people showing their work is they are
Speaker: metabolizing it, but not altering it, not editing it, not, you know, changing it to be comfortable. um And so you, you, you must be able, you must have that, that lower that ego drive into a point where you can be like, Ooh, this makes me uncomfortable. Right.
Speaker: but I see the benefit for the greater good. I'm centering not my comfort, but the comfort of others. And that does require a little bit of, you know, you gotta, you gotta to give yourself grace to do that um because you're not perfect na anymore. Remember?
Speaker: And so I think like, but that's, that's a necessary evolution for folks that are in these formalized power positions to even do what we're talking about.
Speaker: Totally. Now, I have other ideas of where to take the conversation, but I'm curious if the two of you have a place you want to go from here that feels alive for you.
Speaker: I'm on the ride with you, Adam.
Speaker: Well, I want to go to this thing that we were talking about earlier. The way I framed it is what are things that are taboo or untouchable or um too hot to have in a conversation around DEIB, especially these days.
Speaker: um And there's many entry points for this. And I think the intention I'm wanting to do by exploring this is... um Maybe demystifying something that feels taboo if we get to know it a little bit closer, taking the energy out of it so that things can move.
Speaker: um And maybe there's nothing, but I did want to see if there's anything that feels alive for you two that kind of framing that would be helpful to talk about. I have something that's surprisingly taboo. Does that count?
Speaker: Sure. Can I go that route? Okay, this is surprisingly, this is surprising to me. um i I didn't realize how taboo equity, to be honest, is or Or it's becoming. i don't I don't know if it's becoming or is. I don't know. Because I've i've thought took to. in let me Let's define.
Speaker: So, you know, everybody. You go to Google. If you go to Google, everybody will find that um that picture of the people by the fence. And i think they're little kids. And, they you know, I think they have to. At first, they don't have the the boxes. And then you give them all the same box. You know.
Speaker: Okay. so So when we think about what equity is, you know, we've we've been trained. um for equality, whether it's on the playground, whether it's if you listen to the, you know, constitution, you know, equality has been at the forefront, meaning everybody gets the same thing, no more nor less.
Speaker: Whereas equity brings into a phenomenon where people get what they need to be successful. And it also requires, in my opinion, it also requires a understanding that there are systemic barriers in place that may be preventing people from getting what they need to be successful.
Speaker: And so you have to not only understand that people may need different things, you also have to understand systemically, there's probably a reason why people don't have the same thing in the first place. So it it requires a little bit of both of those understanding when we conceptualize equity.
Speaker: So where I get surprised is In certain circles, when I talk about equity, I talk about it really normal because I'm like, yeah, you understand what equity is. Because when I walked in here, there was a ramp that went to your front door.
Speaker: that's literally an equity tool, you know, cause not everybody can use the stairs. You know, I, you know, I assumed this notion of giving people what they need to be successful. I thought everybody was on board, not naively, but I just assume I made that assumption. Like, yes, we've, we've passed that one. We got that.
Speaker: But behind closed doors, I'll talk to folks and they're sharing with me their worries and their worries are this, this equity stuff doesn't seem fair. And I'm like, what do you mean?
Speaker: Well, we're we're having a women of color leadership conference. Why don't we have ah a male leadership conference? Why do they get a leadership conference? And I'm like, well, this conference y'all have been sponsoring for the past 15 years. it's It's important for women of color. Like you you you strategically created that. I'm telling them their own strategy, but I'm like, you you strategically created that to to ensure that you' you're giving everybody a fair shot because historically speaking, you weren't, you know?
Speaker: But people started Yeah, it started to seem taboo. and And what fascinated me was.
Speaker: It seemed to me that. The very notion of equity.
Speaker: Manifested in people that they were losing something. And it's like, you know, you already got 120. So you given that 20 or you're not giving you not having that 20 anymore, you're at 100 now.
Speaker: You felt like you you felt like it's like a all doom and gloom. All of a sudden you did. You didn't see the 120 is not fair, but you see going back to 100 as total unfairness.
Speaker: um So so it just fascinates me of that. that that That level of... um ah lack I guess I'm going to just say a lack what I'm observing is a lack of like awareness of the whole.
Speaker: That was fascinating to me. And my cynical side was like, is this purposeful? um But my... I guess so my more humanistic side understands human psychology too.
Speaker: um But but that that to me... so I'm surprised. Well, I'm not surprised. i'm I'm actually...
Speaker: It's surprisingly taboo, but I'm not surprised it's happening. that's ah I'll just say like that. yeah i I have an example that I think is helpful to, and because I have the, the um I have the same surprise.
Speaker: and ah I have, well, here's what say. I have a frustration. I'm being honest, I have frustration. Yeah. I have a frustration.
Speaker: i wish that i was more surprised perhaps um But um I think that um when i'm when I'm talking with folks about um the concept of equity and helping folks ah um sort of bridge their understanding of it, there's a couple of examples that I think are helpful.
Speaker: um It is not atypical for organizations to institute a sponsorship program. And now this is another thing that requires a definition. So sponsorship um as distinct from mentorship, as distinct from coaching is um ah having someone um whose responsibility is to pound the table for your career development and advancement. So this is someone who is going to stick their neck out um to support your
Speaker: um you're moving up in the ranks, you're getting the exposure that you need, you're getting the experiences that you need um to advance your own career. Different than a mentor who teaches from their own experience, different from a coach who helps you on your journey, sort of in your own development path.
Speaker: um ah there it's not It's also not atypical that there are sponsorship programs that are geared towards folks who are underrepresented within the organization.
Speaker: um so um ah folks of color, um queer folks, women's sponsorship programs. And what i what I have heard is that seems, to Kevin's point, that seems unfair. Why wouldn't everyone get to participate in this program?
Speaker: Well, it turns out that a lot of um majority group members and in particular white men and nothing against white men to be clear, have sponsors de facto because organizations are oftentimes well represented by white men.
Speaker: And so it becomes natural that, like i spoke about earlier, this notion of haemophily, like of self, it is natural for folks who feel comfortable with folks that are like them.
Speaker: So it's natural for buddy to bring along a buddy through the corporate ranks and pound the table for them. Yeah. it is less natural for um and a leadership group who might be majority white men to become a sponsor for someone who is very dissimilar from them, who does not share commonalities around culture, who does not share commonalities or as many commonalities, as many commonalities about um career path, family upbringing, access to education, things like that. And so what
Speaker: um an equitable process does is it creates the pathways that Kevin was talking to when they don't exist for certain groups. So a sponsorship program for women of color, for example, creates a pathway pathway that's not naturally there, but it happens to be there de facto for all a bunch of people.
Speaker: um And so I think that um that's what I find frustrating, um if not surprising, um in this current socio-political climate where we're getting a lot of pushback on equity, and because what equity does is it corrects for historical disparities. Right.
Speaker: And so the pushback that we're experiencing now is, we don't need to correct for those historical issues. Let's just let them persist. i don't you know Some people are thinking about that actively. I think some people are allowing it to occur.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, and then on top of that, there is a very real belief of a meritocracy and just to provide definitions, meritocracy indicating that like basically you you get out what you put in, essentially like you you can work hard, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and things will happen right positively.
Speaker: And that's a real belief. And I'm not saying that's not I want to marry. I wish there was, to be honest, it's like I'm not saying I'm like anti. i want people to work for work hard and stuff like that. But we can't discount the fact that like some of that de facto sponsorship happened because your dad knew the VP and that's how you got your job.
Speaker: And you y'all go y'all y'all boat together or something that, like real stuff that I've seen. I was working with a client based. um Well, I was working with a client and um they they they ran into this notion of like management being treated differently based off of.
Speaker: other relationships and cronyism, which is like nepotism basically. But um it was on the basis of race though, because the those those managers who weren't being heard were demographically dissimilar.
Speaker: They weren't white men. And the the white male managers got heard more and received more promotion and their issues were taken more seriously.
Speaker: um and And so you started to see that. And it wasn't about performance. It wasn't about who operated best. It was about who had performance. Prior relationships and stuff like that. So we can't say in that system, oh, it's meritocracy. You get listened to if you do a great job. That wasn't the case. so It was based off of preexisting relationships. It was based off of social connection. It was based off of other things.
Speaker: I'm not saying that's not a bad thing, but I'm just saying that's not a meritocracy. And so, yeah, you know, so I think like I'm just calling that elephant out because not only do people purposefully and or not um uphold some of this inequality and inequitable systems, they may other people may also have a um really very real belief of, you know, meritocracy and other forms like that.
Speaker: Well, this is like it's ah as you're both talking and feeling the difficulty.
Speaker: of having someone recognize to use the analogy of like, we're all running around a racetrack that they already have shoes on and other people don't. So of course they're going to run faster.
Speaker: And they're like, well, i want shoes too. Cause they can't tell that they're already wearing them.
Speaker: Or they want extra shoes. They want extra shoes. They want extra shoes. And that that compounded with, so there's that thing where we are unaware of the waters that we're swimming in, which is I think why there's been such a big, there was at least, and it's still there, but dwindling around the white supremacist culture, dominant culture and trying to like show how that's Yeah.
Speaker: But that, it also gets compounded though with, well, I want to be seen just as an individual. I want to be seen as special.
Speaker: have two things. I'm just feeling that tension. My God, like, and it's no wonder people have the reactions they have. Yes. Everybody wants to be seen and nobody knows that they're already wearing running shoes. A lot of people don't know they're already wearing the running shoes.
Speaker: and hit the Go ahead. Sorry, Fran. No, I'm interrupting you. yeah So I was just feeling into that, that difficulty as you're both talking
Speaker: and the not to say, Oh, we should give up, but like, wow, what, how do we work with this?
Speaker: Well, I, I think like, um, the question that comes from me is what might it be like to have my own pain, or to have my own need to be seen and recognized
Speaker: and have those things be true while also allowing for the space in reality for someone else's needs and pain to be totally different than mine and totally valid and need its own salve.
Speaker: Like have a need a salve that is very different than the salve that my pain and needs. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Yeah.
Speaker: And to me, it's highlighting though, some of the
Speaker: ways that we can help people, um especially those who are in positions of power or privilege like myself, turning toward all the tailwinds that exist.
Speaker: becoming more clear about, whoa, there's already tailwinds going on here, things at my back.
Speaker: And then how to have a posture of, and how can I help
Speaker: others feel, experience the same thing.
Speaker: So on that note, go ahead. I mean, I was just going to riff on that for ah second. I think that that is what is being called for perhaps more than ever, certainly in my lifetime.
Speaker: um Right now in our sociopolitical environmental climate, I mean, climate metaphorically and literally um is um this question of how can we help and how can we,
Speaker: um bring people in, bring people closer ah versus pushing people further away. um And so I do think that, um I don't think, I know that DEIB has already been under fire for a couple of years with ah sort of political and rhetorical backlash. um particularly since the Supreme Court's decision in the summer of 2023 to overturn race-based affirmative action on college campuses.
Speaker: It has only picked up steam and headed into 2025 with a Trump presidency will only gain traction. um And I think that for those of us that can acknowledge what you just said, Adam,
Speaker: our remit headed into um this new calendar year is to bring folks closer, bring folks folks that are different than us closer, um and to build community and coalition, and because I think it's going to be a long along roaded road. But for those of us asking, how can I help?
Speaker: That is how to help is to help.
Speaker: push against this um tendency that we have in our culture um for individualism, push against this tendency that we have for ourself. The one that I spoke about sort of to some extent in the early end, like how do I preserve my safety and my identity?
Speaker: How can I let others into this project of um thriving and love um beyond myself? um Because I think that um without that, um,
Speaker: our organization organizations that um we all spend so much of our time working in are not going to um yield our efforts are not going to yield an inclusion.
Speaker: I mean, like inclusion, geez, nevermind equity. Yeah,
Speaker: yeah I want to say one thing and I want to this is like a pivot to turn it to you, Kevin. um because i think there's a myth around the equity part that people feel like, oh, well, we're just making it easy for people.
Speaker: And I love the wheelchair ramp example you gave of like, no, you're not making it easy. you You're actually making it accessible. Exactly. Because otherwise they can't get in the building. Right. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. So this isn't like a softening of standard or like we just need to make it all so anybody could do whatever they want. And it's like super easy. And I'm reminded of something you said, Kevin, in the training we're in around like how inclusion and you were talking about in learning environments, when we include different learning styles, how that actually elevates things.
Speaker: So anyway, I want to turn it to you and just around this myth of equity making things work. I don't know what the right word is. I said easier for others. or yeah i mean so my my My bumper sticker for this whole conversation around this area is we lower the barriers, not the bar.
Speaker: and and so What that means is you know everybody has a chance to operate as long as we can lower the barriers, I mean, everybody needs to start at the starting line, right? At least that's, I mean mean, that might be a belief I have, right? So that's a bias I'm going to recognize, I'm going acknowledge that I have when I, and when I do this work. And so when I think about that, you know, something Fran had shared made me think about, um you know, we, we, there's that, there's that competing value of individualism and collectivism that that's at play here, I think.
Speaker: And, know, Definitely in Western society, we are conditioned on a very individualistic in ah in in a very individualistic manner, which then sometimes hinders our ability to care about someone else's um plight or someone else's positionality when I feel like I'm being slighted, even if I don't have evidence of it.
Speaker: And so... I'm I'm really big on when I talk to organizations, at least, how do we build systems to recondition us to think about the collective and kind of like a collective, you know, you guys, you got, you know, we we talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs all the time. So there's like the at the top of it is self actualization.
Speaker: How do we get to like collective actual actualization? What does that what could that look like? You know, and I just that's just an operant question I'll throw out there. What could that look like? How different could society be if we made thoughts into that direction? How different could our climate be both social and not um if we made, you know, if we thought into that direction of what it could collective actualization look like?
Speaker: But again, you know, things may sound dark when i when we talk about these things. But no, I have my my hope is in the fact that there are a lot of people who are. You know, working in systems and doing the work to think more into that. But to be honest, I think that's going to be necessary, you know, going forward is more collective actualization kind of grounded and rooted thought processes.
Speaker: Yeah. Because there is a there's a tax to empathy in a way and altruism people are like, I don't trust that you're going just be treating people right out of the kindness of your heart. I don't I don't trust that part.
Speaker: what i what But what I trust is if we can operate around different value sets, like collective actualization, for example, if that can be the basis of where we're going plant a flag and be like, look, that's what we're going to try We're going believe in that. Let's let's go that route.
Speaker: I have hope for something like that because that's true systems change and not some one-off thing, you know? So that's what I'm thinking about. Just like, as I think of root, like causal kind of things or root grounded things I would, I would look at.
Speaker: So maybe if we could use this as an opportunity to kind of circle back, because where I started at the beginning was asking you to both to share, like, what have you learned? What are you learning? And maybe just based on where we're at now from here, like what, how do you see this conversation and,
Speaker: this work that we're all involved in, where does it go from here? What does it look like? Like we've named a couple ways that it shifted just in the last, I don't know, 10 years or so. What do you see now?
Speaker: ah't um Other than dark clouds. I'm like, where to where to begin?
Speaker: don't you know i'm just thinking about you know don't waste a good crisis. And I'm not saying it's a crisis. I'm not a doom and gloom person. But i'm just i'm just it just says, if there is opportunity, utilize the opportunity.
Speaker: and And to me, we are in a time of tremendous opportunity. And what that's going to mean is the stuff that's not working, that's really like surface level is not going to work. You know, it's going to like, you know, it's kind of like it's come. Let me use an analogy.
Speaker: So in a let me let's talk finances. in a market in a In a bull market where the stock market is just going up, everything you can think of makes money because the stock market is going up.
Speaker: Everything works, right? But when we're when the market's going down, the the stuff that really works will will' win out, right? So i take I take that analogy to say we're not necessarily in a bull market anymore as relates to DEI, meaning the market's not really like thriving right now. People are hiding stuff.
Speaker: They're changing the name of different departments, stuff like that. But guess what? This is the moment where we see what really works, what brings people together. Like, this is the moment where the real stuff, the real cream rises to the top.
Speaker: This is the moment. um And I think like when everybody thought it was cool and they were giving money out to all these different groups and stuff like that, people were just doing stuff because it was the trend and it was like in vogue and it was safe.
Speaker: Now the things that we're going to see are going to be the most impactful things. That's my that's my belief. I think we're going to see like the true people that bring people together, we're going to see those things work out. um Because I do believe that
Speaker: I've talked to so many people myself that are not taking the current state as a way another way to look for how to survive. People are looking for how to thrive.
Speaker: because we can't just keep thinking in four-year increments. We got a life to live. We have a life to live. And so I think like there are a lot of opportunities to thrive still.
Speaker: um It's just the things that are really going to be positively, you know, that that are really going to work are going to work right now. And I think more of that collective bringing people together, um less of the performative.
Speaker: and Actually, I would say none of the performative stuff, not less. I'm not a performative person. Like I really want to work in high impact and high alignment. And I think that's really required now more than when everything was safe and jovial.
Speaker: you know So that's my thought of evolution and where things are going where things could go, I guess I'll say.
Speaker: yeah i'm why so You go ahead, Adam. I was just going to say, i will share from the like coaching space. I think it's also true just in the more generic coaching space as well that we're in a place where it's a different It's different conditions. I think there's just a lot more of it happening.
Speaker: And with the sort of more saturation of the coaching space, what really works is going to survive. And that's going to be fine. And in fact, it's going to get even better because we're going to get more clear, more precise.
Speaker: Correct. Maybe even more bold about what we're up to. and the rest that doesn't work, we'll fall away. And that's in the long run is a very good thing for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. yeah I share that interpretation, Kevin, that it may not be the funnest times when the heat gets turned up, but it does burn away. What's unnecessary.
Speaker: Cause sometimes that unnecessary creates noise, to be honest. and And, and, and to be honest, li to be real honest, a lot of the unnecessary stuff in DEI, I didn't agree with either. You know, there's a lot of stuff that happened in the DEI space that I had. I'm like, Oh, I do not agree with that. You know?
Speaker: So like, I don't, yeah. So I think like what's, what's necessary will stick around and become stronger because we'll know, we'll actually know what to double down on. And I'm, I'm really, i mean, that brings excitement to me at least.
Speaker: Yeah. Fran, how about for you?
Speaker: oh gosh, I have so many thoughts on this topic. and I think that um just to ah affirm what you both have said, I think that for the organizations and people that were on board the 2016 and again in 2020 and are still on board, hopefully, um and what we're starting to see with some of our clients is that they're digging in.
Speaker: um that That they're trying to differentiate themselves from the rhetoric that um would um move us away from the outcomes of DEIB. um And so I think that this is sort of what, like, it's sort of like trial by fire, what works will persist. um So I think that's right.
Speaker: um And um i I also, though, am concerned... um
Speaker: Because i think that, you know, we have been making ah ah researchers have been making a business case for DEIB for decades now, um that, you know, organizations that are more diverse and more profitable have greater market share, yield higher innovation, um e etc. etc And so I do think that we'll start to see some of that play out if um organizations that are that start to deprioritize DEIB and the generation entering the workforce um like
Speaker: is not they're going to vote with their feet. um I think that that is really true um and more so than than generations prior. Now of course there is the complexity of geography and and things like that but I think that that is ultimately going to impact organizational success if folks pull back from DEIB.
Speaker: The other thing that I'm concerned about, though, is, um you know, when I started in this work, we were advocating so strongly for our ability to enable self-identification along the lines of sexual orientation and gender identity um within organizations so that organizations could know. We wanted to see ourselves in the number to say, like, can can we make sure that we are represented in your workforce? Yeah.
Speaker: Now, with the anti-trans rhetoric and legislation either on the books or proposed, the pendulum is swinging the other way. And I just saw um a lot of opinion opinions circulating in my media feed about um folks like, I'm not filling out those forms. I'm not letting a single person know that I'm trans. Right.
Speaker: Um, what ah like what if that data gets published? What if that comes back to, it back to bite me? What if the, um, this, uh, anti-discrimination law in my state changes in 2025?
Speaker: um and so I'm concerned, um, um, what it means for people's ability to dig in in this moment. And so because of that, where I see things headed in the future, where I think things need to head in the into the future is much more relational and conversational and bringing um bringing what feels divisive back together um and And, you know, I love to harp on this very simple um a sort of academic principle called contact hypothesis, which is just the notion that by spending time with someone dissimilar from you, inherently your biases um self-mitigate.
Speaker: And so I think that like, if anything, if we can, we've been so polarized um politically, but also on the topic of DEIB, that if in 2025, we can just sit down and it's like the, what it was the Budweiser commercial?
Speaker: um where was a Budweiser? I can't remember um where they like brought people out um with very different ideological beliefs, gave them a Budweiser and they sat down for a half an hour. And then by the end, they're huggering hugging, hugging.
Speaker: It's a little, you know, overly simplistic, but some systemic version of that, some programmatized version of that, where we're just like, can we talk? Can we please talk? Can I give a shout out for something like that?
Speaker: Yes. Shout out, shout out to the human library. They're based um out of Denmark. Oh yes. You're right. Fantastic. it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So they do that. They do that. Like, you, you know, you can, you meet people that are dissimilar from you and these are individuals who may have, you know, been socially stigmatized for whatever reason or what have you, but you're able to have these. I mean, I mean, I think and then they've, I think they've done some of these things in the United States since like the early, maybe twenty ten s or something like that. Don't, correct me from wrong But um ah but that that is that they do that.
Speaker: And friend, to your point, it it is about bringing people together, because I think a lot of people have been separated, not due to. Well, I don't I'm let me just say not, not, not, not.
Speaker: I think people have been separated due to narratives. Yes. And not real life experiences. And in order to counteract narratives, you have to have a real life experience. So I think, you know, it it is going to be necessary to to be honest. Let's we got to get more human, baby. And it's like, how can we get more human?
Speaker: Because. You know, i'm I'm starting to believe the dead Internet theory every day because I'm like, are you a real person or not? You know, ah LinkedIn or something. So I think like the we we we must get more human, be more human, be more together. um Yeah.
Speaker: Contact hypothesis and and ah in action. Yeah. I don't know if either of you have seen it, but Will and Harper on Netflix is is like a... So it's Will Ferrell goes on a road trip with Harper, who's a trans woman who was Will's friend at, I think, Saturday Night Live or something.
Speaker: Oh, Harper Steele. Harper Steele. I couldn't remember the last name. Yeah. And they go on a road trip together and it's about just becoming friends again. so not the contact hypothesis, but it sure it illustrates just what happens when you're with someone and shared experience.
Speaker: sir ah Well, and... I think that, like, I really want to underscore this, the the get point point, Kevin, that you made about where the divisiveness is in large part in reaction to a narrative. And so I'm glad that, like, we in this conversation took the time to define equity, because I think what a lot of people are reacting to is what is attributed to this acronym that we've been using for a period of time. Right, right. Without any grounding in the the you know like the fact that we're talking about processes that yield outcomes, specific measurable outcomes, and that it's not the church of DEIB. It's not ah it's not um an entity unto itself, but it's how we go about achieving specific results.
Speaker: I think that that's critically important. Yeah. And then the the like I just have one other point, which is um there's this book on tyranny by Timothy Snyder that like looks at all of the sort of tyrannical governmental takeovers um over the past you know long time.
Speaker: The first principle is don't obey in advance. And what I'm already seeing is people drop the E from DEIB. I'm seeing people drop DEIB altogether. Walmart is a great example. They're just using belonging now. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And I think that if there are leaders that have positional power on this topic, listening to this podcast, I just want to impress, like, don't obey in advance. Like, there is nothing legislatively yet this topic.
Speaker: on the books that would prevent you from um pursuing um thoughtful employee centered practices um that will make your organization um much more successful. Your general counsel may have a different risk profile than I do. And I'm happy to have a conversation with them because I, then this is a favorite topic of mine.
Speaker: um But I just think that, you know, bring back humanity, um and don't, don't obey prematurely.
Speaker: Yeah. Cause it feels like to do so is fracturing even further rather than what Kevin was highlighting around like this, this is really about the strength of the collective yes in many respects.
Speaker: And there are particular parts of it that need attention in order for that to take place. And honestly, The quicker we do it, the better. Otherwise, it's just going to get longer and drawn out. But my sense is it's gone there anyway. it just might take a lot longer otherwise.
Speaker: um So we have a couple of minutes left. Any parting things you all want to share that you haven't shared already? This work, like, you know, Fran and I do a lot of this work professionally, but...
Speaker: ah ah you know personally, I want to i want to share share there. i think um in a lot of spaces, there is a deep emphasis on
Speaker: learning about ourselves and you know discovering ourselves and continuingly continuing to discover ourselves, which then is, you know there's outcomes of like, there's not a lot of you know ah not a lot of emphasis on mental well-being in some spaces.
Speaker: um And so I think like, with this work, for this work to be successful, when we talk about, you know, collective perpetuity, you know, and collective actualization, you got to be there for it.
Speaker: And so if you're not there, meaning if you don't even know who you are in this space and you're not continually to try to discover yourself and like watching yourself evolve and stuff like that, um it's gonna be hard for you to join the collective.
Speaker: And so I just wanna, I always wanna emphasize um the importance of individuals, ah people learning about themselves, not hiding from their biases, acknowledging your flaws Um, and it just accepting those things for, because that's the only way we're going to be able to grow. I'm a big believer of like continual growth.
Speaker: Um, and I'm not talking about degrees or certifications. I'm talking about your human experience. Um, and I think that's a necessary thing so that you don't, you know, become this tyrannical drone. You're just going along with everything. You're just letting things happen and letting things wash over you in a negative way. Um,
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. It just makes me, yeah. This conversation's making me think about what is required of the individual for the journey.
Speaker: How about for you, Fran? Ditto. Leave it at that.
Speaker: Oh, man. Well, I'm really appreciative of the conversation in many ways. i think we're practicing some of what you were just talking about, Kevin, together, where we're sharing our learnings with each other. And I know i learn about myself and about this whole space just by being with the two of you.
Speaker: um And in a way, at zero as we're closing, it to me feels like we can only be a collective if we're also individuals. Mm-hmm. Like that's what allows a collective to take place.
Speaker: So Fran, I was really um impacted by what you said around like this isn't a doctrine or a mold or trying to push people into. It's really ah an alive conversation.
Speaker: And I felt that aliveness here just in like how you all have been in this for so long and been changed by it. And the conversation itself is changing, which is exciting. um And yeah, there's lots of external factors, though, that aren't always thrilling, especially as we're in the heat of some of those now.
Speaker: And all the more reason to stay together.
Speaker: So I'm really grateful for you guys and you taking some time here. Really happy to have this conversation with you all. Thank you. Thanks so much, Adam.
