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Listening to your life
212 Plays14 days ago
In this episode of Stepping In, host Adam Klein of New Ventures West speaks with Mo, founder of Mindful Leader, exploring how integral coaching principles shape authentic leadership and personal transformation. Key themes include:
- Mo's transformative journey from tech CEO to mindfulness leader, sparked by his company's collapse and subsequent period of profound questioning
- The value of staying attuned to life's guidance, even when it comes through challenging experiences
- The influential role of integral coaching in
- - Embracing discomfort as a catalyst for growth
- - Integrating diverse perspectives, even critics
- - Balancing action with reflection
- How Mo's immigrant background shaped his desire to understand and be understood, influencing his inclusive approach to mindful leadership
- The importance of engaging with divergent voices and critics in the mindfulness community, finding value in discord rather than seeking only harmony
- Key elements of New Ventures West's approach to
- - Creating inclusive dialogue in the mindfulness community
- - "Pulling the rug out" when things get too comfortable
- - Finding aliveness in challenge and growth
The conversation illustrates how integral coaching provides a framework for both personal transformation and organizational leadership, while remaining responsive to life's deeper invitations for growth and understanding.
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Transcript
Introduction to Stepping In Podcast
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello, welcome to the Stepping In podcast. I'm Adam Klein, managing partner and faculty member at New Ventures West. And this is a podcast where we delve into how integral coaching can address some of the most pressing issues we face as individuals, as communities, and as stewards of our planet.
Guest Introduction: Mo Ejalali
00:00:23
Speaker
Today, I'm joined by Mo Ejalali, who's the founder and CEO of Mindful Leader, which has been at the forefront of workplace mindfulness for over a decade. He also happens to be a graduate of New Ventures West. And this is a really fantastic conversation about not just mindfulness, but engaging in conversations that might be sometimes difficult and really paying attention to what does it mean to be alive and listen to the life within.
Journey into Mindfulness
00:00:49
Speaker
Enjoy.
00:00:53
Speaker
Well, hi, Mo. Hey, Adam. Glad you're here. and We're talking today. Happy to be here. So what I thought would we could get started and that we did a little bit of this in the our exchange before sitting up today.
00:01:12
Speaker
is really hearing a little bit about your journey into what you're up to today with Mindful Leader and what brought you to starting it with your partner and then where you find it today.
Career and Crisis
00:01:27
Speaker
Wonderful question. And there's sort of different layers I could go into as as we know the work that we do. And so I'll start at ah at a higher level. and And we might dig into areas as you might see fit. And so the quick background, my Fannie was in computer engineering. I graduated computer engineering during the dotnet bubble. Very exciting time. Had a pretty successful career and in IT. Went on to start a small company, which bootstrapped it very quickly. Got some support from Microsoft. And in that didn't really have a wonderful, oh didn't have a a solid
00:02:04
Speaker
ah understanding of leadership and hired a business coach sch once who told me my employees were like horses. Once that could take me from point A to B, I could put them down to get a fresh set from point B to C.
00:02:18
Speaker
Obviously it made me kind of question question the value of a good coach versus a not so good coach. But I adapted these and on paper we were doing well. I was kind of this whiz kid, boy wonder. The company went from zero to 30 people. We were a multimillion dollar company. I was literally a poster boy. Microsoft had a big conference in Washington DC and they put up my picture on posters across the DC Metro. Like I was literally a poster boy.
00:02:47
Speaker
um And then the company collapsed and in 2009 we were overextended. We were doing ecosystem recruiting essentially. I overextended everything and suddenly I found myself in a position that I had kind of gone through this process of becoming a certain type of leader, operating in a certain way.
00:03:06
Speaker
that was very aggressive, very kind of alpha male, gangster-like, ruthless-like, reinforced through some of the different coaches and and folks that that I considered mentors at the time. And when the company collapsed, I found myself still operating like that. I still had this mentality. And when I would look at myself in the mirror, I didn't like who I'd become.
00:03:32
Speaker
was disgusted, and I wouldn't hang out with myself. I was like, who is this guy? But I didn't have the company to hide behind. I didn't have a reason to operate that way or be that way. And so I always went through a very difficult time. I was financially the most successful in my peer group and my family. And suddenly I got wiped out, flipped upside down. And in that journey, just trying to make sense of things, I asked myself, what's this all for?
Discovering Mindfulness
00:03:58
Speaker
Why chase after something where just like that it could disappear? And why cause so much pain and suffering chasing after this thing that didn't really matter? So I asked myself what's important and I was open to exploring. Very fortunate to be in the DC area and have a supportive family who really helped help me together and helped me as I was sorting these things out.
00:04:28
Speaker
stumbled into a meditation class, um which blew my mind. I have a science, skeptical background, and everything I was exposed to in that class resonated. Later, I found out that my teacher, Jonathan Faust, was the former executive director at Kapalu, the large yoga center, and his wife happened to be
Founding Mindful Leader
00:04:52
Speaker
Tara Brock. But at the time, he was just an amazing teacher that that made a lot of sense to me.
00:04:57
Speaker
um I also checked out a bunch of books and went to the Shando Mountains. I'd hate to be cliche, but I actually did do that. And so I went to the mountains, got away from everything, spent four days up there with books. One of them happened to be Coaching to Excellence by James, and I was blown away by by that book, among among others. and You know, I remember um it was a book on leadership, and it's been a while since I read it, so correct me if I'm off with with anything, but it started with talking about death, and I was like, I've read a ton of books on leadership, and death is such a critical component of our our sense of life, and um in our understanding just gets overlooked, and I thought it was brilliant, and I was very much influenced by that.
00:05:48
Speaker
um I signed up for the New Veterans West course, a time in San Francisco shortly after. I did my first 10-day silent meditation retreat. It started consuming and looking for anything that that might expand my understanding. like I just felt... that everything I had learned up until then, specifically around leadership and and and how you're supposed to be effective and what I'm supposed to be um was all nonsense and that there was another way in that and that I just was blown away and kind of cracked me open. And so that started my journey. And to fast forward a little bit, I had bills to pay. So I went back to doing IT t program management for NAS and DHS.
00:06:30
Speaker
started, did the New Ventures West course, got plugged in on a great deal with the mindfulness community at the time. This is around 2010. Eventually we launched our first Mindful Leaders Summit in 2013 and fast forward to today. We're one of the leading voices in the workplace mindfulness field and we're the largest provider of mindfulness-based stress reduction and I just feel really just privileged to have been active during those early stages that things were forming together to have been dropped on my head and then having gone through what I went through at the best time as far as the retrospect to look back and it it kind of opened me up and ex exposed me to to wonderful things that have really helped shape where I'm at today.
Cultural Influences and Openness
00:07:21
Speaker
One of the things we're curious about, because I imagine so um many people may have these moments where things fall out, the bottom falls out, things don't go how they wish they would go, but something for you allowed you to stay open and hang out in that space long enough to to answer the, or to at least sit with these big questions of like, well, what's the point of chasing after something? What do I really want to be committed to?
00:07:51
Speaker
So in that space, if you can remember, because I know it's been a while, like what allowed for you to stay open and hang out there long enough for a shift to start to like really take root? That's a really great question.
00:08:08
Speaker
and you know, I think often in these really short recounts of stories, we present a very simplified narrative, right? And so there's a lot more depth to it, and like, and there's layers and layers, right? So, so um yeah, and and so one of the things I'll mention, you know, I did have just from from early childhood, I've always had a real kind of keen desire to
00:08:41
Speaker
to understand. And I think a lot of that came from being misunderstood and and just being an immigrant from Iran, coming from a country where my my parents had just seen their lives flipped upside down, revolution and turmoil and coming to the United States, growing up in an environment where in the 80s, where I couldn't even say I was Iranian and and that there was this real um a real desire to be understood and and to understand. And it's something that drives me to this day, like this real genuine desire to like be understood and understand things.
00:09:17
Speaker
At the same time, I did come from ah a Muslim background. Mo is short for Mohammed. And there's just a lot of ah beauty beauty and in Islam and a lot of beauty in, you know, the way I would say my parents would interpret it at at that time and sort of the to but depth of Persian poetry and Sufism. And so there was some of that in the air. And I think that I'd always had this openness to,
00:09:44
Speaker
wanting to make sense of things. You know, why are we why are we all here? Like Red Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, like like those kind of explorations earlier than than some others might. So that was always there. um And I decided that maybe business and and kind of this pursuit of technology and and and and that might be where I could kind of explore things and also went down to the end, ran founding heads, kind of track. And so that got exposed to many things that influenced me. But I feel like I was always open to understanding, and that was just innately there.
00:10:19
Speaker
During that time, I also, I guess I was fortunate enough, I didn't have a job, I didn't have real responsibilities. I had, I didn't have kids, didn't have, and I had to, you know, bless my family and particularly my mom who was really just willing to kind of help me sort of, you know, help me sort of take care of the basic needs while I was going through this really difficult time. um And so I had some space and I had some support and and I feel very privileged to have had that. And so those those are the components. I feel like there was a natural desire to seek and understand. And I had this support that gave me the space to to be fortunate and privileged enough to to do this work.
Personal Growth and Mindfulness Movement
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah. So the real in the what I'm hearing, the interplay of like your own temperament, the way that you were
00:11:17
Speaker
so to speak, engaging with the world, but then also this context of support and not just support, but where these kinds of questions live and are entertained, like culturally and from the Muslim background. So questions of importance and more existential questions. There's room for that. That was also ah in the mix for you.
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah, I would, I would say, and and that's not to mean like everyone, like, you know, I've got siblings that have different levels of depth in these these yeah areas, but definitely there was kind of a highlight both, right? That course yeah as parents, if you're, or if you have siblings or if you're a parent of multiple kids, there's always this like very wide spectrum of how kids can turn out because of the temperament part. Like there is a uniqueness to each of us. So there was a listening to yourself that was going on.
00:12:15
Speaker
in addition to the support around you? Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I've always been very introspective and and kind of contemplative. Yeah. So I'm curious now, so Mignette, we can pick up the story where you left off, which was with Mindful Leader. And so how are you finding yourself today? Like, what are the things you're asking yourself? What are the commitments you find yourself continually engaged in? and What's it look like to be expressing this nowadays?
00:12:50
Speaker
Wow, and for me, there is this, and and one of the things that that New Ventures West really instilled in me was this sense of like, whenever you get too comfortable, it's probably time to pull the rug out from under yourself.
00:13:07
Speaker
and sometimes in my first experience, I feel like, you know, the rug, whether maybe there was some some conscious desire for the rug to be pulled out from under myself, but it was more external. It's much more difficult to do it to yourself, much more difficult. And I think that it's so easy to fall into kind of a comfortable complacent a real easy sort of way, which then loses that, and I'm searching for the right word. I could feel it, but it's hard to say, but that aliveness, maybe there's an element of aliveness that we lose in that challenge and that risk,
Critical Views on Mindfulness
00:13:53
Speaker
right? There's sort of a risk that keeps us alive.
00:13:57
Speaker
and With Mindful Leader, we were fortunate to have quite a bit of early success and sort of fortunate to be at the right place at the right time. And I feel early on in exploring this idea of mindfulness, generally speaking, and mindfulness in the workplace. And so we had a lot of success in our early conferences and things. People were were very excited to participate and and be there. And that just created a a great deal of momentum that has carried us forward.
00:14:29
Speaker
now in the last few years, especially I would say since 2019, there was clearly a point that there's an old song by the who that, and I know I'm not necessarily young enough to listen to the who, but, you know, pay attention it to the classics, but there's like a line where it's like, you know, something like the new boss, same as the old boss.
00:14:53
Speaker
and it's a brilliant song where they're kind of talking about how easily we could kind of replace one problem with another and I think in particular it was during the 60s and this concern that that the peace protest and in the peace movement um in some ways it had kind of this the the power dynamics, that the way power could corrupt. And so even though we're kind of replacing, you know, let's say Nixon with somebody else, the new figure is the same as the old boss. And that's always stuck in my head. And I think it, you know, just that natural need to challenge and sort of being exposed to different world perspectives at an early age.
00:15:34
Speaker
And I felt that in the mindfulness field too. I felt this feeling like, hey, wait a minute. I was super excited. I sort of had this honeymoon idealistic phase where just everything seemed so glowing and perfect. I found the answer. I found it. I found it.
00:15:53
Speaker
yeah and be know That's the moment where you've got to be like, hey, wait a minute. and so Wait a minute. Exactly.
00:16:02
Speaker
And so that, that wait a minute came up in this idea of like the new boss, same as the old boss. And I started to think more critically about things. And it it also was during a time where, you know, and in the US, we were going from the the Trump period, which I think was very traumatizing in certain ways to sort of the post Trump period, where you had this real woke movement, which in in some ways had some benefits and in some ways had its own set of challenges.
00:16:26
Speaker
where um it felt very dangerous to to think and speak outside of the kind of the party line. And and I've never felt that way ah necessarily in sort of more of the left-leaning world. like it It always felt like the left-leaning was where you could say whatever you wanted, that was encouraged. And so there was this weird dynamic happening and both internally this questioning of like, hey, wait a minute, you know the new boss is the same as the old boss.
00:16:54
Speaker
um And things were just feeling a little bit too glowy. And then this this environment that was sort of starting to shape where it was dangerous to to say things. and And it felt strange because it was within the atmosphere and environment where people typically would encourage the daringness to say what what isn't said. So it was it was a unique time.
00:17:24
Speaker
and One of the things that you were where you started with this was paying attention to aliveness. so I want to and circle back to that because that felt like an important part to like stay in something that was alive and evolving.
00:17:42
Speaker
and like that and like um not just falling back into default patterns. So what's what's that look like today in the mindfulness movement for you that you're paying attention to and wanting to, like as you feel it, like give voice to and really bring forward and be in conversation about?
00:18:02
Speaker
Thanks, Adam. And so I will connect 2019 to bring us up to speed, but it started in 2019. And the key thing, we had a social media a post where I shared this article about a right wing Christian fundamentalist group that was suing one of my friends' organizations in New England that was introducing mindfulness into schools. And we just shared this post.
00:18:28
Speaker
And our mindful audience, and this was on Facebook at the time, we're we're pretty active on Facebook, our mindful audience went nuts. I mean, they freaked out and said, you guys are idiots, unfollow. One poor lady kept saying, have you guys been hacked? Have you guys been hacked?
00:18:45
Speaker
and We could have presented that post maybe with a little bit more context to to the credit to the folks that that might have been i'm surprised by it, but the reaction was overwhelmingly like negative and and very unmyful and very shocking to me. And when I saw that, you know I felt kind of the the spidey sense tingling, right? like There was something there. I was like, hey, wait a minute. And and that feeling of like, ooh, like kind of that aliveness. And I realized that Hey, this has got me curious. And if it's got me curious, maybe maybe others will be curious. And if not, so what? like I'm feeling it. So let let me let me pursue this. yeah oh And I did. And I found that um the lead plaintiff was this woman by the name of Kendi Brown. I found out she was a a professor at the University of Indiana with a PhD in Divinity Studies from Harvard. So she was a legitimate, credible person.
00:19:40
Speaker
um And I engaged with her over email. Next thing you know, we did a one-on-one interview for an online event that we were doing. She did an article for us and I was just mind blown. It was refreshing and exciting and um and and it got me feeling alive where there was this woman who disagreed with fundamentally a lot of the things that we were trying to do.
00:20:05
Speaker
but that was willing to approach things with a with rigor and with um a level of rational intelligence and a voice that had been silenced everywhere else. And I engaged her and just found out I felt enlivened by it. It challenged me, questioned some of the stuff that we were doing. And next thing you know, I invited her and she was part of a keynote thing at our summit, we do a couple of different keynote things, and I paired her with Barnaby Spring, who at the time was running New York's Department of Education Mindfulness Program, overseeing a program that would potentially impact a million students, one of the largest in the world, and they had a debate.
00:20:47
Speaker
And no one, no one told me that this was a good idea. No one encouraged this. No one suggested it. It was like i yeah wouldn't the opposite advice. Yes, exactly. Like what? Why? But at the event, the people who experienced that They felt that spark that I felt. They felt alive. They were energized. They didn't agree necessarily with everything, but they felt a alive. And for me, um and was it was a sign that, hey, there's something here.
00:21:23
Speaker
and
Evolving Mission of Mindful Leader
00:21:24
Speaker
that this is something that's going to become part of my own exploration in mindfulness and mindful leaders. And so to fast forward a bit, that was the spark of initially the the series, the Blot series that now we call Wackfulness, where we explore the silly, sometimes and unexplored side of mindfulness, taking a critical look at this work in a time when it was kind of dangerous to do so and still a little bit, trying to provide different perspectives, different voices,
00:21:52
Speaker
um to to do exactly what but what we learned, to pull the rug out from under us, whether it's individually or as a community, to to bring in the perspectives, to bring in this this stuff that that makes these policies and say, hey, wait a minute, like I don't agree.
00:22:08
Speaker
But there's something here worth exploring. And so to fast forward to where Mindful Leader is at now, um exploring the critics and and taking a critical view has been really essential to how we're looking at mindfulness and looking at the future and and really providing a vision for mindfulness.
00:22:26
Speaker
with the work that we're doing, where we're able to look at the past and look at the wonderful contributions of people in the past, um the frameworks and and and the the different areas of us particular, MDSR, but then also looking to the future and figuring out how does this work evolve? How do we create the right atmosphere, structures and frameworks where we're able to carry this work forward for generations and generations to come and address some of the baggage and address some of the un unaddressed things from the past and create something that truly, I believe, um connects with the the original passion and and reason I got involved with mindfulness. And I think a lot of the original promise and excitement around mindfulness that that maybe has been lost with some of the things that people have experienced and seen out there now. I mean, to me, what I'm hearing is it's a move of
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah, stepping into controversy or you use the frame of like pulling the rug out from under of you, but also like what's it like to include more voices here that aren't just singing the same note? Like we're playing this note about mindfulness. Someone else is playing a different note. What happens when we bring those two things together and there's going to be some discord, but is there any harmony that we can create or learn about by having those two things exist together, which Yeah, in our world, especially today, that doesn't really happen.
Inclusion and Diversity in Mindfulness
00:23:54
Speaker
That level of open engagement with something that we're using the word aliveness, but sometimes can feel like just charge.
00:24:05
Speaker
that's that's That's a great point. And and what I'll say, like there are times when when it is harmony, um but there are times where it is um it isn't necessarily harmony. It is critical. It's the kind of, yeah yeah you know, it's like, it's like your keto, like, you know, sensei sort of say, Hey, like, that's not the way you do it and and correcting, right. And so sometimes that it's a critical hardening and sharpening that, that helps the argument. So so in in the conversations with Candy, the areas we didn't agree, what I found was that she helped me
00:24:42
Speaker
I identify myself and my points better because I had something to push against. And by doing that, things got crisper clear. My conviction was was stronger, yeah but I had more of a sense of exactly what the heck I was talking about and believing. right And so it's kind of having that partner that you could joust with and that you could spar with to kind of sharpen your thinking and your understanding.
00:25:11
Speaker
Whereas sometimes in harmony, even though harmony is beautiful, you don't have that and that same kind of energy that sharpens. Yep. Totally. and so Are you able to recall like one or two things that have become more crystallized as a result of some of these conversations?
00:25:32
Speaker
But there there's quite a lot. And I think one of the things that was very clear to me was that in our field, and and one of the things is that that I'm always afraid of is being a hypocrite. And I feel like that's a a good gauge. Because when you stop fearing being a hypocrite, then you instantly you know very easily could slip into it. And so kind of challenging myself, like, wait a minute. am i how How does this feel? And I feel there's areas constantly where where we we could approve. um But in our field, we talk a lot about inclusion.
00:26:00
Speaker
And I believe inclusion and diversity is a fantastic, wonderful thing. And in conversations with folks like Candy and folks like Ron Perser and Glenn Wallace, and and there's quite a few others, like this idea of inclusion um was being challenged. Like how can we be inclusive if we're not willing to include voices that we disagree with? Like are we just trying to make ourselves feel better by just sort of like doing this, but what does inclusion really mean? And in that exploration, um it got clear to me what what that means for mindful leader and what what diversity inclusion means for us. And that was very crisp. And probably the one of the places where I feel like we diverged
00:26:44
Speaker
where for us it's inclusive of all religious beliefs, whether it's fundamental Christians and Buddhists and atheists and non-believers, and then also this element of, and this this was a hard one for me, but being politically inclusive.
00:27:02
Speaker
And for us early on, especially coming out of the trauma of you know um without getting political, but the the Trump presidency was very traumatic for many, and including myself. And so it was hard to be willing to welcome and invite that. And so, in my thinking, it got very clear, it's like, hey, this is what this is what it means to us. And in in that jousting a bit, um that that helped. And then I'll share another example with with Ron Perser, for example, he does a lot of its exploration around make mindfulness, and this idea of how mindfulness has been
00:27:41
Speaker
really commandeered by capitalists. And Ron has a very clear, and and there's many others who have explored this idea of how mindfulness and capitalism should be made. And in my thinking, it got very clear that, hey, wait a minute. like I don't believe that Buddhism and capitalism should be mixed. Spirituality and capitalism should be mixed. However, if mindfulness is not Buddhism and it is what we claim it to be, sort of this universal humanistic approach that could help people through awareness and non-judgmental presence live more gracefully and react to things more gracefully, for me, there is absolutely nothing wrong
00:28:24
Speaker
with that being offered in the workplace and government institutions and educational institutions and in a capitalistic framing. And so in some ways, we we don't agree, but um what he said helped inform what what I'm thinking. And in a strange way, we we do agree, because for me, if it's if mindfulness is Buddhism, I agree with Ron. But my my point is that, and in the direction we're heading towards is that we need to be quite careful in what we are presenting and what it is truly underneath. Yeah. And as you look forward, what what what hopes do you have?
AI's Impact on Society
00:29:04
Speaker
It's a combination of hopes and, you know, there's there's sometimes disparities to be quite honest and with just like everything that we see out there, right? both What are your hopes and what are your disparities? But we you know to to keep it positive. So um I am thrilled and frightened by AI. And I think a lot of folks are. And and we we got pretty active writing and talking about AI early last year, just as chat GPT was starting to to be ah adopted. And and i'm so so like I'm super thrilled about AI. And I know, again, like there's there's obviously the the counter side of it. I could see.
00:29:43
Speaker
just profound abundance, a profound in our lifetimes, like just ah a transformative, um you know, level up, I can't even think of how to describe it, like we're going to take a huge step. And in that,
00:29:59
Speaker
Again, a lot of folks are talking about the potential for unlimited abundance, all sorts of our needs being met. And so on one side, I'm really excited about that. On the flip side, I do think, and sometimes when I talk about AI, it's like there's two extremes. There's the terminator,
00:30:15
Speaker
where we just all get destroyed by AI, which I don't think is going to happen. And and the other extreme, which is WALL-E, the Disney movie where we're just completely overweight, being carried around, indulging in everything, having no purpose, having no meaning, having no struggle, having no challenge. And I do believe that suffering and challenge is is part of life. that that we might not have our sense of liveliness without that. So I'm concerned about purpose and sort of existential risk. and And on top of that, all the political power dynamics, what happens with the shifting of power, the concentrations of power, and all the things that are happening, um in particular in AI. And so I feel like AI is really exciting.
00:30:55
Speaker
And I do see a real potential for, you know, just understanding of consciousness and and and a lot of questions within AI and within ourselves to be addressed. um To come back to our field and make it a little bit more relevant, I do think we're going to go through an extraordinary, we're already in it, like a mental health crisis. It's just going to get worse. I see just the the mass use and and real glorification of of using drugs, like in a way that you know I didn't like the dare program when I was growing up and you
Mental Health and Community Initiatives
00:31:25
Speaker
might've seen the dare bear. I don't know if you guys had that where they say no to drugs. It was extreme, right? But now on the other side, there's like this real romanticization. um And I'm excited when I'm seeing more of more the the sober and kind of clean movements. um And so whether it's prescribed or recreational, I feel like there's there's been a lot, a bit too much and and this romanticization and of it is dangerous.
00:31:51
Speaker
um the real kind of push for um all all the all the vices. And again, like it's like they're all the betting sports apps and all that stuff that's happened, all the programs. Like there was a point where we were too extreme and we were told you're going to go to hell and you're it's sinful to do these things. And now we're in the other extreme where I feel like it's become too normalized. And that, you know, as we're seeing um with the the research and the psychology, like there's a real real danger to these things and they take us away from there's an escapism and so for me there's a mental health crisis and a lot of these things that we're doing and that we're allowing in that that are being deregulated and adapted and glorified and normalized are making things worse on the flip side i feel we need to
00:32:42
Speaker
find true connection, true meaning, true community. And I saw a great talk, I think it was Michael Pollack who said, well, one of the biggest challenges we're going to have, and and and this has been talked about for some time, but is the loneliness epidemic. And I feel like people are going to be more and more alone, more and more isolated. um And the power of AI, like we don't need, it we have so much freedom and power at our fingertips with our phone,
00:33:08
Speaker
that we almost need to be forced to deal with other people and and deal with all the you know things that we have to deal with it when we deal with other people, things not being instant and actually having to care about someone else's needs and kind of be patient and like having to listen and and understand. um So I'm concerned about about how we really form community and I believe community is is the answer and and all the stuff that that we're focusing within Mindful Leader, it's like how do you really integrate community into every piece of this and really get people to to to sacrifice what we need to in order to be part of a community. There's giving, there's you have to give something up, you have to be willing to participate and serve.
00:33:56
Speaker
Yeah. And I know that's an important aspect for you guys. And you have one, I know of one clear example that you're doing, which is being able to practice together. Do you want to say a little bit about that? Glad to mention. So we have a program called Meditate Together, which is entirely based on community, 24 hours a day, five days a week, people drop in.
00:34:17
Speaker
on the hour and they join a group where it's 20 minutes of silence, so we're not prescribing anything. You could believe whatever you want to believe, you could practice whatever you want to practice. It's very Quaker-like in terms of just kind of the silent time for contemplative or meditative practice.
00:34:34
Speaker
It's hosted by a member of the community, so there's no real hierarchy. It's very egalitarian, and the hosts aren't guiding or doing anything. They're really just holding the space. At the end of the 20 minutes of silence, there's a checking question usually to evoke a sense of appreciation and and and gratitude, but also all sorts of of questions that that we've vetted as a community. People share if they like to, and there's an opportunity simply to listen.
00:35:02
Speaker
um And that community has been running four years since the pandemic. Every week we have 120 community members host these sessions and somehow we've managed to do it for four years, but it's completely community.
00:35:17
Speaker
Thank you. And it just has this wonderful energy. Like there's something special about the that space. And, you know, I highly encourage folks folks to check it out. It's been wonderful and just maintaining a practice for me, by myself. It's almost having like a 24 hour a day, like meditation center, almost like 7-Eleven.
Personal Practices for Engagement
00:35:36
Speaker
You can just drop in any time and meditate with other people.
00:35:40
Speaker
You know, that's right one of the things I was wondering about if we were to come back to you personally in these times, what are you doing to stay open to the aliveness within and be open to these conversations and how things are unfolding? What's that look like for you?
00:35:57
Speaker
Boy, and and for me, so, and sometimes it's hard, right? so So I would say sometimes I do go through, and I've gone through a lot of personal stuff the last two years, and there are moments where I realize that I need to to heal and I need some space. And so there are times when, and you know, where it's good, by the way where you need a little space to be strong enough, and where you have a space to have ah the ability to to engage.
00:36:26
Speaker
right So i just want to I just want to be honest about that. So there are times where I kind of need to pull back and heal and and you know the images, I'm not Superman, but the image is like Superman's cave comes up where it's like sometimes you have to go back and and heal before you could step out and and deal with things. And I think I've learned over time,
00:36:46
Speaker
wisely to sort of gauge that and know when when I need to heal and when I need to step back and when I'm ready to kind of step out there and yeah you know ah engage in ways where sometimes you deal with things coming at you that that sometimes are very negative and and loaded.
00:37:02
Speaker
um For me, I do have a ah nice regular meditation practice, and that's just become just pretty regular. I do consciously try to avoid feeding my mind things that will kind of disrupt me in in ways that aren't productive, I would say. like you know So so ah the news, for example, like sometimes the news um is is a bit much, and i' I'll take the right dose. I'll try to take it in ways that I know
00:37:33
Speaker
will be less um negative on me and I'm looking for the right words, but sometimes reading things is a lot easier to let my mind kind of interpret it versus being bombarded by images that someone wants me to be bombarded by. And so I found that very, very helpful.
00:37:52
Speaker
continue to to be inspired and over the last few few months I've been, I have kids and so kids are really a wonderful source of you that that aliveness and so we've been reading a lot of ah rolled doll. And I found that like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Matilda, James and the Giant Peach. And so going through these stories, which came from a different era, and so did the language and so the like pretty hard like yeah it's It's not like, you know, Blueby or Paw Patrol, like there's some stuff in there. um And so really enjoying exploring that with the kids and and just remembering
00:38:30
Speaker
There was a point where I just felt like AI would replace books, like and technology would replace books. But now I'm just remembering how wonderful it is to disconnect from it all and just like settle into a good book and what the kids are on my own and how wonderful them that experience is. of just being with someone else, you know, sort of in their mind and in their thoughts and in their story and and going on on a ride with them while not having all this insane, you know, attention programming that's trying to hook us and sell us and and take us for
Influences and Appreciation
00:39:05
Speaker
a trip. And so, um yeah, I don't know if if that helps answer, but being very conscious of technology and and how it could mess with me and finding simpler ways to digest and explore and entertain.
00:39:18
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's helpful just, you know, and I like asking that question of people on the podcast, just so listeners get a sense of, like, what are all the possible ways of staying open in life, staying open to this aliveness, that there isn't anyone, like, here's the recipe. So I think hearing from different folks about what it looks like. And as you started off hearing about Yeah. And it's not easy all the time. It's hard. And so the reality of that, so that we can really feel companioned when we're feeling that way ourselves. Exactly. like I think it's dangerous to kind of feel guilt or shame, right? around Around those things, like I should be this, or I need to feel that way. And to find how to get there, but in in a way that that feels that that's more organic. Yeah.
00:40:13
Speaker
Well, I've appreciated our time. mode Is there anything you want to say as we're coming to a close here?
00:40:20
Speaker
none Not a whole lot outside of the fact that I have a lot of respect and appreciation and for the work that you guys do. And it has been fundamental in my journey and in my past. And of course, you know, had other influences and things.
00:40:35
Speaker
But um quite often, especially in those really difficult moments, a lot of the lessons and experiences that I had with New Ventures West have been really invaluable. And so just my sincere appreciation for that. And yeah, and so I'll leave it at that. Yeah. Well, we're also, I think one of the things that stands out to me in your work is a lot of what you talked about in this episode.
00:41:02
Speaker
ah entertaining and including and welcoming difficult conversations around things that it's easy to be in in an echo chamber around. And I think that kind of inclusion, while it may not always find harmony in it, like enriches our own views, our own understanding, crystallizes things. And it's an easy thing, easy thing to ignore, because it's easy to find echo chambers, especially in today's world. so were inspired by your commitment to engaging in those conversations and having them really inform how things go. Because my sense is it really and does inform it and enrich it and help it to um really be of benefit to more and more people.
00:41:48
Speaker
Absolutely. And one of the things I think about is that to feel alive, there is an element of suffering that really engages us. But to find the right suffering, right? So sometimes we we find the wrong suffering. There's all sorts of of terrible ways people do that. But the right suffering sometimes, like that that that workout, that kind of pushing or that engagement with someone who you don't agree with and challenging your ability to be with them and and hear them out. but That's just one little thing I wanted to to mention. Yeah. Well, thanks, Mo. As do I. Thank you. All right, Mo. Take care.