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The Edges of Coaching
113 Plays6 days ago
In this insightful episode of the Stepping In Podcast, New Ventures West managing partner Adam Klein engages in a profound dialogue with Joel Monk from Coaches Rising, exploring the evolving landscape of coaching, its shadows, and its future possibilities.
The conversation begins with both hosts sharing their personal journeys into coaching. Joel describes his transformation from a hedonistic lifestyle as a community artist and DJ to a spiritual seeker who discovered coaching through Ken Wilber's work after an existential crisis. Adam shares his parallel path, moving from engineering to founding an intentional community called Reimagine, eventually finding his way to New Ventures West through his interest in the Enneagram.
Together, they examine fundamental questions about coaching's foundations. They discuss how coaching often emphasizes success and improvement, potentially perpetuating a sense of lack in clients. Adam notes that New Ventures West's approach has evolved to be mindful of this shadow, recognizing that not everything needs to be about performance enhancement.
The conversation explores coaching's relationship with wisdom rather than success, questioning whether coaches should be provocateurs who challenge the status quo rather than simply helping clients adjust to unsustainable systems. Joel emphasizes the importance of recognizing our interconnectedness, moving beyond the hyper-individualistic approach that has dominated coaching.
A significant portion of the discussion examines AI's impact on coaching. While acknowledging AI might democratize access to coaching, both hosts agree that the human-to-human connection remains irreplaceable. They suggest AI might actually reveal what makes coaching truly powerful: the aliveness that emerges between human beings in authentic relationship.
Adam describes New Ventures West's approach as helping people "be in contact with their own aliveness," highlighting that coaching isn't merely about frameworks but about helping people connect with their unique life expression.
The hosts explore what it means for coaches to remain at their developmental edges. Joel describes the thrilling state of working at one's edge, where coaching feels alive and fresh rather than habituated. They agree that being part of a community of coaches who can offer refined feedback is essential for continued growth—something New Ventures West fosters in its cohort-based training model.
The conversation concludes with a brief mention of ethics in coaching, leaving listeners with questions about how the field might evolve while maintaining its integrity.
Throughout the dialogue, the New Ventures West philosophy shines through: an emphasis on the whole person, the importance of practice, the value of community, and a commitment to helping clients discover their unique aliveness. This conversation exemplifies the depth that New Ventures West brings to the coaching profession, inviting coaches to consider how they might continually evolve their practice.
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Transcript
Introduction and Purpose
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Stepping In Podcast. I'm your host Adam Klein, managing partner at New Ventures West. And in this episode, I'm joined by Joel Monk from Coaches Rising. In my conversation with Joel, we look at the coaching profession, all the different styles and ways coaching can show up in the world.
00:00:19
Speaker
the different ways that that supports clients. And then we turn our attention to looking at what does it mean as a coach to continuously be looking at our own growth so that we can better serve our clients.
00:00:31
Speaker
I found it to be a really enthralling and enlivening conversation. I trust you will as well. Look forward to hearing from you. Stepping in at newventureswest.com.
00:00:43
Speaker
Without further ado, here's my conversation with Joel.
00:00:48
Speaker
How are you today? Yeah. You're you've had your day or, you know, a good portion of it so far. have. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty good. Thanks. Yeah. been quite a busy day because ah my daughter's still off school because it's the school vacation. So had her and then I was doing bunch of other stuff in between. So yeah, but I'm and i'm doing very well. Thank you. Yeah.
00:01:13
Speaker
In good spirits. How old is your daughter? She's just turned five. It was her birthday yesterday. so Oh, how fun. Yeah. And we have a 17-year-old in the house. It's quite interesting.
00:01:25
Speaker
ah Yeah, different dynamics at play. I'll say.
00:01:32
Speaker
Wow. Yeah, we have a 12-year-old, and we just started the school schedule. We're in a week two now. Oh, yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, America goes – yeah, the U.S. seems to go back a bit earlier. Yeah.
00:01:44
Speaker
Well, yeah, we used to go back later and then all of a sudden in the last, I think maybe five years or something earlier and earlier. Yeah. yeah But it's nice.
00:01:55
Speaker
i like moving back into the school routine. I'm looking forward to it. Very much, you very much. like Yeah, we had the unstructured. That was fun.
00:02:09
Speaker
that was a good time. okay The structure be nice. Yeah, totally. totally ah Yeah. Yeah. the And remind me, where are you? Where are you? Are you in Denmark? Is that, do I have that right? No, I live in Amsterdam.
00:02:23
Speaker
Amsterdam. Just on the edge of Amsterdam. Yeah. Okay. So that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm from the UK originally. So yeah. Yeah. I'm guessing you're um like San Francisco area-ish?
00:02:38
Speaker
Yeah. Area-ish. Yeah. I'm in our office today, which is in San Francisco. Yeah. And then I live about 30 miles north in little town called Petaluma. Oh yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure.
00:02:49
Speaker
I was up in um that area, Sonoma, like visiting Sanyo Bonda. went to stay with him for, well, I don't know if you know him. He's a teacher. He's quite cool, actually. He lives in that area.
00:03:00
Speaker
It's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful area. Look at you. Yeah, it's a really beautiful area. Yeah.
00:03:09
Speaker
Well, I thought, i um I don't know if you looked at the notes from the previous time. I thought we could just kind of use these as a guide. Yeah. And one of the places I was curious to start Joel is really even like contextually for people listening to this episode who may not know you, ah what brought you to coaching originally?
00:03:36
Speaker
What's some of the backstory for you?
Journeys to Coaching
00:03:40
Speaker
That's an interesting question. Because there's ah There's a simple answer and then there's a slightly more elaborate answer.
00:03:51
Speaker
What happened was i um i was actually a community artist and a DJ. So my lifestyle was quite hedonistic, sex, drugs and rock and roll.
00:04:05
Speaker
And it was a lot of fun, actually. But one morning I woke up and I burst into tears and I just knew that I'd lost touch with myself. And so I sold all my records and went on a pilgrimage to India and spent, I think, six months there, mostly hanging around with the Tibetans, deepening in my practice or, or you know, starting to deepen into meditative practice.
00:04:32
Speaker
Was that your first exposure to that? um to a life of practice in that way? Yeah, it was I was about 23, 24, and I'd been going to the Krishnamurti meetup groups, funnily enough, before that, but hi which was interesting. But, you know, Krishnamurti doesn't give you much to go on in terms of practice.
00:04:52
Speaker
Right. right but there So, yeah, they were cool people. um Well, I'll just keep it super short, but it is interesting. So when I was in India, I was really you know became a Buddhist and was really practicing. And I came out of seeing the Kalmapa one day, who's a quite a prominent figure in the Tibetan tradition.
00:05:13
Speaker
you know He'd been giving a teaching. And then there was these two guys there and they started challenging me about why would I you know cut myself off from the world and meditate? And I got really triggered.
00:05:24
Speaker
And in that moment, I decided to hang out with them. And they introduced me to all these things like neoadvaita teachings, you know, like the further, the more the more you practice, the further away you you move from the truth of who you are. and I actually had a ah kind of um mini awakening experience from from exploring that.
00:05:44
Speaker
But um what happened was by the end of the week of hanging out with these two guys, you know I felt like they'd turned my world upside down so much that I was like, like I hate you.
00:05:56
Speaker
and the last thing they mentioned was was um Ken Wilber. And by that point, I was like, I don't want anything to do with anyone you mentioned next. And then... um it was through getting into Ken Wilbur at a later date on a retreat where I came across his book.
00:06:13
Speaker
It was an outdoor retreat and his book just kept on showing up. I tripped over it coming out the shrine tent and then I sat next to it and I was like, oh, there's Ken Wilbur again, to get away.
00:06:25
Speaker
But when I started reading his work, um everything, I was in an then existential crisis after this mini awakening experience and just like, it was a complete loss of identity and,
00:06:36
Speaker
um you know, just, just so really trying to find my sense of ground again. And Ken Wilbert answered all these questions that I was wrestling with in his work. So I just felt, I lit up like a Christmas tree and then I discovered developmental psychology and then this thing called coaching.
00:06:55
Speaker
And so that was a slightly long answer to your question, but um yeah, it was an amazing to come at it through that route because coaching felt like it encapsulated everything I was passionate about.
00:07:06
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah. Well, appreciate it. To me, it feels like a and a long, but more like a full answer. Yeah. I was wanting to bring in some context piece because, you know, we're going to talk about coaching and rest the future and all of that. And as I was sitting with the theme of our conversation was just feeling into what might be helpful for us to share a little bit about like, what's the context that brought us here? Because that's going to certainly inform even how we orient to some of these questions we wanting to explore together.
00:07:39
Speaker
um Yeah. Yeah. So mine's my, my pathway in is not, well, it's parallel in some ways in the fact that I came into it through more of a spiritual trajectory as well.
00:07:52
Speaker
So I remember, in the U.S., when you're 18, you graduate high school, then you have to decide, what are you going to do? are you going to do in college? are you going to study? then what are you going to go on to make a career in? And I didn't really know.
00:08:08
Speaker
ah had many things that I was like kind of good at, things that enjoyed. But really, and I remember this very distinctly, I remember exactly where I was. It was in the basement of this, it was actually a church. And i said, you know, I just really want to help people become who they are.
00:08:25
Speaker
that's what I want to do. But I had no frame of reference for like what that would actually look like, how it could be practical. So I went on to study engineering because that was the pragmatic thing to do. And I could see like, oh, I can make money doing this and maybe do something alongside people inside of that.
00:08:48
Speaker
But it was in graduate school that I had been doing different things in the more like fringe sort of mystical arena of Christianity and was doing my graduate studies and kept hearing this little voice inside that said, you know, this isn't it. Engineering is not it.
00:09:08
Speaker
Do something else related to more full on with people. So I didn't know exactly what that meant, but I had a friend in San Francisco that I had been connecting with over the years. So I moved here.
00:09:21
Speaker
We started a little intentional community. And then a nonprofit called re-imagine, which was all about like a center for life integration. And how do we integrate things like justice and creativity and simplicity?
00:09:37
Speaker
and it was there then that I started to think about like, well, what could I do? how could I do this? Not in a nonprofit context, but more in a more like market-based context because I was doing consulting work.
00:09:51
Speaker
computer consulting to help pay my bills. And people there were very interested in this other part of my life. They're like what is this thing you do on the weekends and these workshops that you lead? So then I got introduced to coaching.
00:10:05
Speaker
And I'm curious to know a little bit more because you said you found coaching. My first introduction to coaching was like, I don't think this is it.
00:10:15
Speaker
This, this, but my first taste of it was more, um it felt like it was gonna exacerbate someone's suffering rather than help it.
00:10:25
Speaker
I'm very curious what what you were doing. Yeah, well, it was more like, how do we get people to just accomplish things and um really achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve.
00:10:38
Speaker
And i could tell based on the work I had already been doing that that might be helpful for some, but it certainly wasn't gonna be helpful for everyone. So then I started looking around more and I found the Enneagram.
00:10:50
Speaker
I had been studying that for many years and I thought, oh, if someone includes the Enneagram in coaching, maybe that's a place to go. And that's ultimately how I found New Ventures West. um Beautiful.
00:11:03
Speaker
Yeah. So when you first encountered coaching, what was that like for you? And you mentioned it briefly there in that like passing comment, but. Yeah, well.
00:11:15
Speaker
I ended up moving in with a guy. i was a Buddhist household. I'm not practicing Buddhist any longer, but I was back then. And he was coach and he was also like a counselor, Rogerian counselor. I remember when he did some counseling on me and I was like, whoa, what is like a magician?
Coaching Methodologies and Influences
00:11:35
Speaker
You know, like I feel completely seen by this man, you know.
00:11:40
Speaker
Uh, so, yeah, he had a lot of depth to him. So I was quite lucky to, to, yeah, to meet coaching through him. And so I just started following my nose really in terms of, um, what were the trainings in Manchester where I was at the time. And there was a, you know, a coach training based on like NLP and creativity stuff. And I just, you know, so I was just kind of grabbing hold of what I could at that age.
00:12:08
Speaker
and But it wasn't long until, you know, i discovered Integral Coaching Canada. i actually have never trained with them, but, you know, I started to become inspired. Doug Sillsby's work had a big influence on me because actually I'd say the practice that really started to have an influence on my coaching was a practice called circling, which has since gotten quite bigger in the world.
00:12:36
Speaker
ah But back when I got into it, you know, actually it was in the Bay Area that it really started out. But, you know, other than that, it wasn't much of it going on anywhere else. But yeah, I was like, oh, this is the modality where you can really practice being in, you know, relational meditation with another person in a way that unlocks thriving, aliveness, a certain kind of growth.
00:13:00
Speaker
So yeah, by dropping the change agenda. so So that the mix of things just started to, kind influenced me and Robert Keegan's work, of course, just had ah had a big influence, but I didn't, until Jennifer Garvey Berger's work, didn't really get a sense of how how can you apply that to coaching?
00:13:19
Speaker
So, yeah, it's kind of an eclectic journey for me, really. Yeah. ah But yeah, was quite lucky, I think, in that sense of, I didn't, yeah, in what you're describing, I didn't have too many kind of negative experiences around it.
00:13:36
Speaker
yeah Yeah. For me, it was just that initial one. i was like, I'm not sure this is it. And then, you know, the more I, like I said, hung in there and looked around, I thought, oh, this is quite a wide field.
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah. Which I know I've heard some of your podcasts is coming up and it even comes up in our school. It's like, well, is coaching really the best word for some of what people are doing?
00:14:02
Speaker
You know, I don't know. We can get into that maybe later. But the and that's, I think, part of our conversation to bring in is like, given the wide spectrum
00:14:13
Speaker
of coaching, like what sense do you make of that?
00:14:17
Speaker
Yeah. of Of what do I sense of? make Yeah, of like given the widespread, given the for some, maybe put it this way. because I had people asking me like, is coaching what I should be doing in terms of like, not necessarily training, but like looking for a coach or do I need a different kind of modality?
00:14:37
Speaker
So how would you support someone in navigating the like wide spectrum of what coaching is? if it's something that they were interested in pursuing either as a client or as someone wanting to train in it?
00:14:50
Speaker
That's a, that's a great question. i mean, there there are like, like ah there are several schools I find myself recommending, including new ventures West, you know, like I'm just often would be like, okay.
00:15:05
Speaker
Cause lot of people reaching out to me about with that kind of question, actually, you know, I can, because they know me via the podcast and I could kind of tell what kind of roughly what kind of coaching. And I just say, hey you've got to find a school that really speaks to you, but these are the five or six schools that I really recommend.
00:15:26
Speaker
and But yeah and yeah, if I step back from that, it's ah it's a big it's a big question really. um Yeah, you know I think it depends on who that really on who the person is and on what they're looking for.
00:15:41
Speaker
I do feel that, you know, I know you know of Steve March's work and that's had a big influence on me in the more recent years. And I think he's articulating very beautifully some of the the wider transitions that we're making on a societal level and therefore what impact that might have on the work we do as coaches, you know, what it means to be a coach. And that's why I've been exploring the topic beyond coaching as well.
00:16:11
Speaker
you know playfully really, I'm not attached to that phrase beyond coaching. It just kind of came up and then it kind of stuck and, you know, I've been getting a bit of pushback for it and I love coaching. So I'm not trying to say like coaching's not it and, or trying to, I'm not trying to create the next new shiny thing to sell people either. It's just more like, what are some of the deep beliefs that coaching was kind of based upon originally. And what, what do we need to question about that just as we're doing in, in society wide, you know?
00:16:43
Speaker
So I'm not sure I answered your question now. no Yeah, you did. And we could pick up that thread you just named, I think of, um, Oh, I just lost it. Uh, coaching and
00:16:59
Speaker
what's it, what is it, what is it going to become, I guess in the world these days and in what ways, Oh, this is what it was. What was it built on? What was coaching originally built on that may be needing to be at the very least looked at freshly.
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah. And possibly let go of. And I know one of the questions we were entertaining in our conversation that's connected to this is like what current worldviews are becoming more clearly broken.
Shifting Worldviews in Coaching
00:17:39
Speaker
yeah i think they've been I think some of them have been broken for a long time. It's just that it's more prominent. yeah The clarity of it is more clear. It's more present. Yeah. um you know It's interesting just to preface answering those questions that like I spoke to David Drake recently and he he met with John Whitmore and Timothy Galway. Two you know two of you know not the only, but two people who had a real influence in what coaching became. And I think one of them coined the team the term coaching. And don't know if it was Timothy Galway, who wrote The Inner Game of Tennis. you know
00:18:18
Speaker
um And they were like, we don't like the word coaching, actually, but it stuck. you know That's what they were saying to David Drake. like we We never intended that word. i i thought that was a fascinating thing to hear. I was like, because you know when you put a name on something,
00:18:34
Speaker
it it It has ah such ah an imprint on on what it is and how it's seen. so um you know i think I think the first thing I'd say about that question about the deep beliefs, I think that, and I want to tip my hat here to to Peter Lindbergh, who's right friend of mine, a colleague, and influenced by his thinking, is like success. you know So in a sense, like this is very generalistic um just caricaturing here a little bit to make a point, but in some ways, coaching is based on being becoming successful at something like you know getting something one wants that that one doesn't have. you know like whether that's you know And it's some more forms which are more, i't know, superficial about chasing goals in some way or even um certain ways of being that one might have. But I think what's
00:19:34
Speaker
becoming more important is becoming wiser. And that's not to say being successful isn't a good thing. But for me, like, um becoming wiser, like, what what if coaching really started to orient people to developing wisdom?
00:19:51
Speaker
And I think, and I, you know, that's to say, I think it does already. Yeah. So in certain ways, it's not to say no coaching makes people wiser, of course it does. But yeah,
00:20:05
Speaker
I think a lot of clients don't come into coaching because they want to become wiser. You know, like success has a lot of credence in our in our current worldview. and And by success, we often mean status, monetary success.
00:20:24
Speaker
You know, and I think some of these things are, you know, inherently problematic, but when you situate them within the the current kind of capitalist system, which, you know, again, capitalism, i'm not I'm not critiquing that as a thing per se, but the way it's been deployed around the world, you know, and it seems to just extracting resources at an unsustainable rate and stuff, then then I think, there yeah, from that view, we can say there's there's issues with it, you know, and that you you will have heard this before too, Adam, but how
00:21:01
Speaker
You know, are we are we just coaching people inside of organizations to maintain the status quo? You know, when the when the status quo is isn't sustainable and isn't making people feel happier?
00:21:16
Speaker
um or do we as coaches need to be provocateurs? One foot in what's emerging, one foot in the current worldview to be challenging. So, yeah, that that thing from like success to wisdom, i think is...
00:21:31
Speaker
interesting for me as a belief. And then, you know, I could just, I'll volley it back to you now, but just to tee up, like, I think what, what is it to be a human being?
00:21:42
Speaker
You know, like actually we've inherited this idea of what it is to be human being, and but it's very like hyper individualistic and separate.
00:21:53
Speaker
you know And I think that has many problems to it. And I think that's actually breaking down right now and it's something new is emerging. But that's what a lot of coaching seems to be about. you know It's like, how can I improve my solo self to become more successful in the world?
00:22:11
Speaker
And again, you know there's there is some nice things to that too. It's not black and white, but yeah. who Yeah, I... I definitely have clients that come in with that topic, you know, set in different ways.
00:22:27
Speaker
And then there's also some who come in, not, they don't use this language, but it's more like, how can I feel more at home in my life or more at ease in what I'm doing?
00:22:41
Speaker
Like everything is so crazy. My work is crazy. And then I have family life that's demanding and have all of these demands. And I can't, I can't keep going. What do I do?
00:22:55
Speaker
So I think it's back to this question you brought in, like, so what does it even mean to be a human being in questioning some of the premises that we hold is true about like what's important, how do we utilize our energy and our time and all of that, which is big. Those are, you know huge questions to ask, especially when you're in existing systems that perpetuate a particular answer, which I think is where the rub comes.
00:23:22
Speaker
I think that's ah that's a really fantastic point. you know like we're we and I know in the past, I haven't given that enough space inside of my coaching. you know that we Yes, there you know where and let's get back to my prior point.
00:23:38
Speaker
We're here with this individual on one level, but we're embedded. We're so deeply interconnected within these systems. It's very intense right now. There's ah it's very intense right now there's a lot of complexity and a lot of stimulation, you know, and, um, maybe these systems aren't ontologically designed, in optimal ways and that they're, that's, what's being challenged right now.
00:24:04
Speaker
So, Yeah, I think there are certain practices and ways of being that we can take on as coaches and we can invite our clients into that can help us to navigate the intensity of our times. And in fact, I think we're in a dojo right now that's actually inviting that kind of practice and evolution.
00:24:22
Speaker
And, you know, it's it is a crazy world and and um yeah, it's a lot to conduct. It is. It is. And I've been reading this book by, well, he's a Catholic priest and then also a Hindu, ray Raymond Paniker. I don't know if you're familiar with Raymond Paniker. No.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah. Cool. So he's really fantastic and deep. But he, in the book I'm reading now, Rhythm of Being, he's speaking about how these questions we're in don't have a singular answer.
00:24:57
Speaker
So also like in the question of what does it mean to be a human being, something I've been sitting with is, so what then does it mean to have a diverse answer to that question rather than sometimes the mode I can find myself in, which is, oh, well, we'll inquire into that and then we'll come to an answer that's for everyone. Right.
00:25:15
Speaker
And he's like, m you can't because we're all in different contexts and you can't move remove. That's why I wanted to start with our own context because we can't remove ourselves from that. So our answer is inherently influenced by many, many factors. So what is it like to have a diversity of answers to this question?
00:25:35
Speaker
What is it to be a human? How does it to be alive these days? So that's an interesting question, especially from a coaching standpoint of like, how am I coaching this person in front of me? And am I coaching them or am I coaching me?
00:25:48
Speaker
And,
00:25:51
Speaker
but you know, Adam, what what I really like about what you bring up is actually I feel relief. Right. Yes. Is this if you're leaving? It's like, ah, okay. Yeah. I don't, cause we're so trained to find that next answer.
00:26:07
Speaker
And maybe that's also another one of these beliefs that coaching is based on again, you know, again, I'm characterizing, caricaturing coaching to make a point because I,
00:26:18
Speaker
I think a lot of coaches would really resonate with this idea of not coming to one answer. But yeah, I just feel this sense of relief, like this multiplicity that can be possible in any moment that I can take on. And ah like, it doesn't need to be the right thing. Yeah.
00:26:37
Speaker
Yeah. So maybe as we're in this conversation, one of the questions that's occurring for me is because we're kind of touching on it already a little bit. um but what are the shadows of coaching?
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah. What do you think? I mean, but would you feel like sharing one first? I've got some ideas, but yeah, I'm happy to share one first. My sense is, well, we've kind of been talking about one, which is,
00:27:04
Speaker
having people become more successful. So the shadow of performance and enhancement and progress kind of is, can be built into the whole modality in some respects.
00:27:17
Speaker
So to me, that feels like, um, a thing to be aware of. And is it okay to, no, we don't have to progress. You don't have to change. Nothing needs to move here.
00:27:31
Speaker
And that like I can imagine just
Challenges in Coaching Practice
00:27:33
Speaker
having that be on someone's website. Yeah. Come to me as your coach and nothing. We're going to do anything to change you or shift anything. Everything's fine.
00:27:42
Speaker
So that's on very far extreme, but I feel like that's ah an inherent shadow that that's sort of, that is so antithetical to even think that, you know, or to have that be explicit like, Whoa. So to me, that feels like an edge to pay attention to. And I think it's coming in more. I know we included here and I know other schools are including more of this, like, well, let's be mindful and very conscious about everything not having to be about performance and improvement and the, the,
00:28:11
Speaker
and you named it in the capitalistic mode of the progress really is a myth. And what happens when we let that go, myth of progress.
00:28:24
Speaker
So I think that's one. Um, yeah, anyway, so I'll pause there and I'll hand it to you. We can maybe just kind of go back and forth here. Yeah. Well, just to build on what you're saying, I think you've named something so important that, that, that sense of, um,
00:28:40
Speaker
you know, the the improvement agenda that we can get caught up in, which which can perpetuate this sense of lack, you know, at its core. It's like, ah where where we are right now isn't enough, you know, so need to get somewhere else and then it'll be okay, you know. And actually, that's just, there's a, it's often subtle, but sometimes like very palpable tension with that, you know, sense of deficiency,
00:29:10
Speaker
So that I think is quite a big shadow you know of of coaching at times. And um yeah, so so I'm glad um glad you named that really. um you know In a way, I think i think um but I've already named quite a number of the shadows like this this approach.
00:29:31
Speaker
yeah I think another one is is um reducing transformation to a, like a simplistic set of heuristics or, you know, like, um, we can, like, we can codify it, you know, we can really code it and that there's value in maps and codification, but I think that's one of the the things we're being invited into really is like, ah to live inside of a living realization, you know, a living unfoldment of, of being human,
00:30:06
Speaker
and ah like growth and inverted commas,
AI's Role in Coaching and Society
00:30:09
Speaker
you know? um So I see, I see that as like, it's, you know, there's so many assessments about and maps and models and, you know, competencies, static competencies. Yeah. yeah Yeah. i'm not Yeah. They're getting challenged a lot right now.
00:30:27
Speaker
um' I'm smiling. Cause it's funny. I don't know if you ever scroll on LinkedIn, you see all of these, like a lot of these models and modalities and those little infographics, and then you'll see the same one with like in different colors and different branding and the also way in which, oh, that one's catching on. So you see it over and over again, even though it's touted under different names and different things. I'm like, but that's the same. That's the same thing.
00:30:51
Speaker
So this, yeah, I agree. I hear you. And I see it as well, this shadow of, well, we just need the right technique or the right method or the right framework or the right fill in the blank.
00:31:03
Speaker
And we'll find it and that'll be it. yeah And then the other part of it is then touting that as the solution for everyone.
00:31:15
Speaker
um You know, one's coming to me, it's kind of a shadow. Maybe it's more of an ethical dilemma, but um
00:31:24
Speaker
maybe sometimes like an over-exaggeration of the benefits. ah Now,
00:31:32
Speaker
I think coaching is going to make you experience, uh, enlightenment and nirvana and you'll be happy for your life. And just, yeah. And what we' what we're going to be able to accomplish now this, I think, I think coaching is incredible by the way. yeah yeah I think it can unlock incredible things and actually is just so amazing for people to have long-term coaching and,
00:31:56
Speaker
ah you know i've That's the way I've grown the most in my life. and And it doesn't it doesn't sometimes it can be kind of portrayed as happening in this very like mechanistic linear way. you know that But for me, it doesn't work like that very often. It's like kind of it's like seeping, the the transformation, the change is like seeping in the back door and unbeknownst and like it's some jumps where I go like, whoa, where did that come from? And exactly you know it's like I can't directly attribute it to like one specific moment per se, but it's also undeniably connected to the the coaching work I've done. So
00:32:35
Speaker
Yeah. this Maybe we need to be like a bit more humble and yet also really own own the the the magnificence of coaching. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:47
Speaker
yeah and And for me, our conversation really, to me, feels fueled by like the impact coaching has had for each of us, our love for the field. And the questions and conversations are kind of out of that place.
00:33:01
Speaker
So these yeah wanting to talk about shadows and not critique, but come in with questions. That's the place I feel like we're coming from.
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah. So there's one, I think that's connected to this as we're talking about it and it, it's a whole other thread, but I think there's also some connection to this shadow piece, which is um like the big concern about AI. How's that going to impact coaching?
00:33:29
Speaker
And to me, one of the, tangential pieces of that that might be some of the shadow of coaching is like the economics. So part of what I hear in the AI conversation is, is this going to have coaches become unemployed?
00:33:47
Speaker
there's other There's many, many other dimensions to it, so I'm not simplifying it to that. But I do am curious about this one of the like the sort of economics of coaching and other ways that it's been talked about is like, yes, it seems helpful, but it also seems to be for a very select group of the population, not so widely available.
00:34:08
Speaker
So that's, to me, another shadow is the whole economics of it. And in fact, just maybe a couple of weeks ago, there was an article in the New York Times about therapists moving into coaching. And one of the reasons, because it can be more lucrative from a financial standpoint.
00:34:26
Speaker
So that's to me is also something I feel like is getting tossed around in the whole coaching space and wrestling with this question. And I'm wondering for you what you see in that or thoughts you have on it.
00:34:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's... um So I think what's interesting is there's how AI will impact the economics of coaching, but then how AI will impact our economies.
00:34:57
Speaker
And then even just the wider, broader economic disruption that we could potentially, maybe we even already are moving through in the next decade, you know? So, um,
00:35:09
Speaker
linked to the conversation we've had about growth, perpetual growth and our resources. And if you list people at Nate Hagan's who talks about the great simplification, a very confronting thing to hear about how really our economic world ah systems are actually tied to energy.
00:35:25
Speaker
And it's most, it's actually about energy, but anyway, so yeah, you know, again, there's no right answer to this. So like on the one hand, am I for,
00:35:38
Speaker
coaching, the democratization of coaching and people like absolutely. I love that. um And also my for coaches getting paid well, you know, do I like to get paid well? I do. So, so it's not, there's not ah one answer to this. I, um yeah, I, we've done some podcasts with people who are quite prominent in the field and with AI and I personally,
00:36:06
Speaker
I feel like maybe we've just passed the peak, the hype peak a little bit of of AI. And that's not to say that it isn't going to keep expential exponentially improving and blow our minds, but somehow like the cracks started to appear in the initial hype wave of like what it's going to be able to do. Like I noticed some of the news articles in the last two, three months starting to challenge some of the claims and Anyway, so that because I'm saying that because ah think for a while I was quite pessimistic about what was what was it what's the impact it's going to have on coaching.
00:36:45
Speaker
you know Because it does seem like they'll be able to create AI coaches that will have access to every coaching theory out there and will be able to draw upon that.
00:36:58
Speaker
um but it seems like it's still going to be, you know, of course we know, and I'm not an expert on an ai on AI by any means, but um yeah, it's not alive, you know, it's not relating to the human being in front of you. So it's it's only able to respond in a particular way, like looking back and drawing upon knowledge. And I think that will serve people.
00:37:22
Speaker
um So I think AI can play a role in democratizing coaching. i I had a conversation with Nicky to Blanche and that was one of his big hopes is that, yeah, you know, for people are never going to be able to afford the kind of fees coaches I know charge, they're going to have access to to AI coaches.
00:37:42
Speaker
So that feels potentially like it could be positive because I think there's a lot of caveats as well about AI coaching. We could get into that maybe, you know, i' not I'm not all in favor of AI coaching by any means. Like I'm very skeptical and I'm not um i not like resistant to either, you know, I'm kind of trying to be open and just play with it. But yeah, I think a lot of the things we've already talked about, like what is a human being? What are some of the deep beliefs and values we base our societies on?
00:38:15
Speaker
And what are the problematic ones that have been based on a modern worldview? They're getting baked into AI. So they're going to accentuate a lot of the challenges we have. um But um I do think there'll be a place for human coaches still.
00:38:33
Speaker
Like that's my feeling right now. But The economic role model around coaching, I don't know you know. There's going to be a commodification of coaching. There's going to be a McDonaldization of coaching.
00:38:45
Speaker
i mean who i just don't know, but I think it behooves us to do the deeper work, the deeper kind of training that you guys do at New Ventures West, you know where it's really about your being and the the deeper spiritual elements of our humanity and Yes. So we could get into that, you know, but I mean, again, I'm, I kind of weaved in a lot of different perspectives there. So yeah, yeah, no, yeah feel free to.
00:39:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I mean, I would echo some of the things you said about it helping some of the democratization and becoming more accessible. I mean, even though it isn't, I don't think intelligent, it's, you know, statistical models from what I understand, just putting things together.
00:39:30
Speaker
um it can be quite helpful. in many respects. And I do think there's significant limitations like you're pointing to. And one of the things I'm curious about is even in its helpfulness, you know, we're in the midst of from some things I was just reading and studies that have been done in the midst of like peak loneliness, um don't know peak, but accelerating loneliness.
00:39:58
Speaker
And what's it going to be like to now interact with the screen rather than another person, even though it might be saying things that are helpful. Is that really going to be helpful? Or is it going to be just more cognitive distinctions that still have the person and feel distant, not connected and isolated from others?
00:40:21
Speaker
So that's a big curiosity I have around it. Like, and to me, one of the things I think AI is revealing back to the thing we were talking about, like frameworks and the right technique. I think it's going to reveal that that's not what coaching is.
00:40:37
Speaker
hundred percent with you there. Like that's the thrilling side of it. Actually. The, the, just to, I don't, It's pretty bleak and I don't want to spend time here too much, but to think that, you you know, more and more of our interactions might be with the AI avatars that seem human-like and whilst we're consuming art, you know, that's created by AIs. And what, you know, I've been reflecting on that. There's something about the the transmission of Eros and and create ah evolution that comes from like like living beings interacting together and
00:41:13
Speaker
that that sense of emergence that comes, you know? And what happens when a lot of that's happening through AI generated content, you know, like does it, do we, at first it seems okay, but then after a while we start to feel even more down and depressed and lonely because we're consuming like McDonald's grade art and, and interactions.
00:41:34
Speaker
Now, i don't know if it will definitely be like that, you know, then there's going to be a lot of positive things coming out of AI, but, So back to your point, like the positive side of this, I really think is, is it's going to suddenly put it right in our faces.
00:41:51
Speaker
Like what what's actually beautiful about being human and what we actually need, you know, these human to human interactions and contact and intimacy and and and this kind of eros and a aliveness that can come through two human and the and the novelty and the emergence that will come from two or more human beings together.
00:42:13
Speaker
that that That I think could be huge when that starts to dawn on us more and more because the other side of it is getting louder and louder and we're getting less and less fulfilled.
00:42:25
Speaker
Right. Exactly. Exactly. And to me, I think it reveals one of the essential things that coaching is up to, which is having people be in contact with their own aliveness.
00:42:36
Speaker
What's the life inside of me that's only going to come through me because I'm only here once? And how does that live through me and get expressed in the world? To me, that's the the fascinating thing. And I think AI will reveal like, oh, it's not a model that helps with that.
00:42:54
Speaker
It's a much more, as you were pointing to earlier, it's a much more mysterious process and one that can't be done in isolation.
00:43:09
Speaker
that That I think is...
00:43:13
Speaker
where we're being invited as coaches to, to, to enter into the, the magic and the immediacy of the moment of being with another human being and the revelation and the unfolding that can occur.
00:43:30
Speaker
like, um, ah, there's a way I wanted to put it, but it's, yeah, that, that's, um, Yeah, be beyond like if you think about AI, I think one of the things we're being invited into is is like we're coming out of an era where we valued um knowledge a lot, you know, and like knowledge and and analytical, like breaking things down into their parts and measuring them. and and And I think in a way like that's getting baked into AI. That's what it does. You know, it can look back over all of our accumulated knowledge and then kind of estimate what an answer, the best answer would be.
00:44:08
Speaker
But the most exciting coaching sessions I've been in with with master practitioners and the communities I've been in is like beyond that space, what you're pointing to where where people are really just um letting go of a change agenda.
00:44:24
Speaker
just dropping into the moment with another human being. Now they might be calling upon beautiful distinctions that they know, like the Enneagram, but that's not that's not in the lead, that's in the background. What's in the lead is this like living sense of contact and aliveness, the felt sense of being human with another person.
00:44:44
Speaker
And that there's, you know, a kind of intelligence, that comes online and and can guide that sense of evolution taking place. And it's not even, it becomes even less about me being the coach, coaching you, but actually, you know, life evolving through us in this moment.
00:45:03
Speaker
Now, there's an art to that because I'm still a coach and I'm still holding space and you might be still paying me, but I'm participating and and even revealing impact of what it's like to be with you. Because I don't think AI will,
00:45:18
Speaker
be able to reveal that kind of impact. um it might It might from facial recognition and tone of voice, but it'll only be referring back to all the data. But as another human being, I can be like, as I'm with you right now, this is what this is what I'm noticing, this is what I'm feeling.
00:45:36
Speaker
So. so Yeah, it's beautifully said. I think it's pointing to that we are alive beings. and we're creative beings. So as we come forward into the world, we're not going back into some model that which is AI is drawing on.
00:45:54
Speaker
It's fresh. It's new. It's never been done. I'm i'm me. And the me in the next second, isn't the me that I was yesterday or a second ago. And in fact, if we go off of prediction models, it kind of hems people in like, well, this is what you were doing yesterday. This is how you wrote yesterday.
00:46:14
Speaker
which is one of the ways AI does things. It's like, oh yeah, this is your tone of voice. So this is how you should say it again. That feels so limiting. And I wonder, i hear now like large coaching organizations that are developing their own ai and, you know, even maybe using coaching sessions to, from within their organization to then codify these AI coaching,
00:46:44
Speaker
platforms, you know coaches. and But then if if then if that does have the impact that less and less people are coaching and more and more coaching is done by AI, that that evolutionary tone that we're talking about, I don't know what's going to happen to that. you know is AI going to start to to suddenly come up with new novel ways of coaching?
00:47:06
Speaker
it it might do. you know Again, I want to be careful to say that you know no no human being will ever get beneficial regulation and contact from an AI? Because I i know that's already happening, like from studies I hear. So, but yeah, you know, again, it comes back to if more and more stuff is created by and we're just consuming it and not creating it, what's the what's the long-term impact of that?
00:47:35
Speaker
Well, yeah, as you're talking, it's like another way, we you know, we're shaped by the things we use, shaped by what we engage with. And there's all of this now shift, recognizing how we've been shaped by cell phones and social media.
00:47:48
Speaker
So there's a growing, at least in, over especially in where I live in the school districts, a move of no phones at school, like even in public schools, because of the way that it's impacting development of kids and shaping them in a way.
00:48:06
Speaker
So I'm wondering, as you're talking, as people interact with ai like what's the positive of it? And I do think there are positives, but also what's the shaping that it's um going about? How is it shaping us as human beings? And what will we learn about that in 10 years? Cause it will take time. Well, mean, you know, you made a great point there. The phones, you know, that hasn't, I don't think,
00:48:34
Speaker
we're gonna look back on our phones and I don't know from now, from when, we're not gonna, I don't think people are gonna look back and go, oh, they were pretty good for humanity. Like, you I think they'll be like, you know, it started out okay, but. stuck It started out okay and then there was, what happened there?
00:48:51
Speaker
unprecedented levels of loneliness. And yeah I just saw an article in the paper today, like Britain, like 15 year olds, like they called it a happiness or wellbeing recession, you know, it's not.
00:49:03
Speaker
So that's, I think a lot of that is because they're on the phones and social media and all that. So if we bake that stuff into AI, it's like on steroids, you know, I mean, if you don't know if you've listened to Zach Stein, you know,
00:49:15
Speaker
I haven't, no, but I'm going to look into him after this. Yeah. i mean, let's make sure you're in a good mood when you watch him because he, you know, he's a brilliant guy and he has some really amazing points about the dangers of but what we're about to do. So, yeah. So you're saying make sure I have a friend to call right after i listen to a read up on Zach Stein.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah. And of course, you know, his his work is broad and he's not only talking about AI. So, yeah. Yeah. That's funny. um So I'm curious, you know, we've been talking about, we can keep going on this AI thing, but I'm wondering if you wanted to bring in another place to go or another question you've been wondering about.
00:49:58
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Yeah. um Great. I mean, i think we've talked a little bit about the worldview shift, um but I think I was just thinking before we came on, like about some of the, the,
00:50:14
Speaker
the um the shift the shift we're going through. i mean, i you know I could talk about that for a couple of minutes and just what what might be some of the implications for coaches.
00:50:25
Speaker
And then I think you brought some amazing questions in as well as we were like planning for this. but Just, just um you know, this this sense of like this mechanistic worldview, you know, ah Newtonian worldview of like fixed parts, mechanistic parts. And um that this, how we're I think we're moving into where we recognize our our interconnectedness.
00:50:48
Speaker
And actually, if you look at like the work of people in McGill Christ, but also like in systems theory, ah Dave Snowden, people like this, where you know, actually,
00:51:01
Speaker
the the the relationship between things are actually more primary than the things themselves, you know, which is kind of like first I found that like to get my head around that pretty is an interesting process, you know, and and ah Dan Siegel talks about from me to MWI, you know, so MWE. So this sense of like extended self that you alluded to with our phones, right?
00:51:30
Speaker
and how the it's actually um our relationship the relationship between things. I think that that's ah that's a high currency for transformation. Like when you start to recognize that and include that in your coaching, um whether that is through more more of a systemic approach, you know by including the world at large or the environment or the team, you know those perspectives inside the conversation, or even from the level of like the,
00:51:59
Speaker
phenomenological felt experience of of being in ah in a flowing relationship, you know, in the moment with your client as things are unfolding. ah This is, I think, there's, it's because ah in a sense, we're moving closer to like the the currency of process, you know, and of of transformation. So, um and I think that that that, I want to include something else here, which I'm curious what you think about, but the other thing we've done with modernity, I think is like privileged, like not the knowledge, as I said, but we've tended to like abstract out of our experience in a way. oh yeah, for sure. Um, you know, I felt that with Wilbur when I, you know, it's like the more I was learning, actually, you know, it did light me up. It's always nuanced, but there was a point where I started to like feel burdened by the the maps and the, that I was accumulating. And, and, you know, this, um,
00:52:57
Speaker
sense of like, i've got to I've got to like know all the maps and accumulate them all in order to to get the answer, you know, its to finally know everything. And I think we're being invited into that, that descent back into the immediacy of experience. And it's related to this relational quality I'm talking to talking about.
00:53:16
Speaker
And this experience of like gnosis of like moving from knowing about to knowing from. So, um, you know, you know, epistemology and ontology coming together. And it's like, as we're talking about the coaching topic, you know, we're, we're, we're actually, um,
00:53:34
Speaker
talking about how it's showing up in this moment. and And that's beautiful. But then we can drop even deeper into this sense of um um how the the ah things we're exploring are actually, we can start to um speak and explore from how they are in this moment. And you know qualities um often start showing up here, like love, presence, strength, compassion.
00:54:01
Speaker
But just the kind of knowing, you know wisdom, a kind of knowing. And we we start to know from those experiences rather than about them. And that's I find that a really thrilling experience.
00:54:12
Speaker
um Speaking from love, speaking from wisdom, from from the sense of connection I have with another person.
00:54:24
Speaker
you know Thomas Hubel talks about this, when word and energy cohere and word and energy connect, and and I think this is an incredibly thrilling place to land inside of as a human being. It's very, very alive. And um so, yeah. um Yeah, I'll leave it there and just see I could bring in a couple more things, but.
00:54:47
Speaker
Well, I think that this is, to me, in some ways we were talking about AI revealing the limitation of frameworks and what you're pointing to, to me feels like. it's not about the framework necessarily or having the right knowledge, but more from where is the coach speaking from where internally and having these different maps, frameworks, models, be ways of finding territory inside that I might not have been able to find on my own.
00:55:20
Speaker
And then the relational part, and this is, I think so powerful, ah is when I'm with someone else and they're speaking from a place that like, oh, I didn't know that place existed or it's been so long since I've accessed it and you have invited me back to this place inside myself.
00:55:41
Speaker
And wow, all of a sudden I feel a little bit more me because of your, you were an invitation for me. You invited me back to that place. And I think that's really one of the magic parts of relationship. and And we see it in our cohorts. It's just amazing to see and working. And it's often behind the scenes in the background. People don't know it's going on and until later.
00:56:06
Speaker
But the magic we can be of inviting one another into different dimensions of being a human because we're different in some respects and the same.
00:56:17
Speaker
But it's um it's like little awakenings. Like, oh, you just woke up a part of me that's been asleep for a long time. And that feels, wow. I didn't know that was there. That feels so wonderful. Or, whoa, pain. I haven't accessed pain like that.
00:56:35
Speaker
And I can feel whatever I feel about it. But it it rounds me out.
00:56:44
Speaker
It feels right. Yeah. Yeah, it feels right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful, beautifully articulated. Yeah, and that that I don't know with AI. you know We keep referring back to it. I think that's the joy of being together with human beings, isn't it, where it can be vulnerable and tender. and you know I go in with groups sometimes, and it's like, oh, I can feel things that I don't want to feel coming online. and But it but it you know most of the time I come out feeling like that was fulfilling and enriching.
00:57:19
Speaker
So, yeah, and I feel like this is part of the frontier of coaching is leaning more into and sort of dissolving the individualist narrative, which you pointed out at the very beginning of our when we started talking, like the individual pulls himself up by their bootstraps and like, no.
00:57:37
Speaker
Relationship is, you know, it's challenging for sure, oftentimes. And there's this possibility.
00:57:46
Speaker
of enhancing our our sense of ourselves, expanding that reconnecting to different parts and the, the, wow, the suffering that's going on now with this loneliness pandemic, but that's not happening.
00:58:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That, that what you share is like, I think that's another challenge is like we've atomized ourselves. We atomize leaders, you know, like, so we see them as being separate from the systems they're in or that leadership is like residing within one person, you know, and it's a, it's another side of the coin of this loneliness kind of ah epidemic and that, yeah, we, we, we actually decontextualize like a person. And ah I think it ties in with what we were saying earlier about like needing to be
00:58:44
Speaker
have the right answer or the one thing, but in a sense, like we're being created in every moment in different, in each context, you know, me and you right now like deeply part of one another's identity, you know, as is the reason that we're here, you know, the, the, the, the purpose of the conversation and the room that I'm in and the chair I'm sound. And, um there's, you know, and I think this gets into,
00:59:10
Speaker
what some of the perennial traditions, the wisdom traditions have pointed at, you know, is that that separate sense of self actually is part of our suffering and not as easy to find when we start to look look at it.
00:59:26
Speaker
So yeah, a lot can open up when we see the world in that, in this way of relationality. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I'm curious about something that we're exploring here is like this question of like given this and relationality and also not, um, centering like the guru in
Evolving Coaching Practices
00:59:49
Speaker
something. And like, what does it mean to acknowledge all that informed that person and being in relationship with them as a, as a person, not as something on a pedestal, but in this move to like more collective orientation,
01:00:06
Speaker
um just I would love to hear your thoughts on that about as we we're kind of in this transition, because we've been talking about it in different ways, like relationality and things like that. In a world where personality is like how we kind of learn about something or get and introduced and like, oh, I heard about it from this person, this key author or this key speaker.
01:00:28
Speaker
So how to have that be present, because that's often how we hear about something and maintain ah sense of, yes, this is just one person though. And let me remember that they were influenced by others and remember the group, not center just this individual personality.
01:00:49
Speaker
So anyway, I'd love to see if you hear, if you have anything on that or, yeah. Yeah, it's a good one. i think it's both and, and you know, cause like, it's also amazing to be around people who are just very individuated and at ease in themselves or or expressing their gifts and their, you know, it's like thoroughly enjoyable and you know, something's coming through them. It's like, but even that actually, that phrase, something's coming through them points to maybe what's beyond their personal stuff. But um I, yeah, but I think this is like,
01:01:28
Speaker
If I think about my own spiritual journey, the the positive side of gurus you know is they can inspire and and they charismatic and you But that we project, basically, we project all our own golden qualities onto them. you know and so Right, right, right.
01:01:52
Speaker
um But I think what we're being invited into is, is um I've seen this in the spiritual world happen more recently where you know Scott Killaby, Jeff Foster, people like this were like, hey, you know what? like I'm human too and I'm fallible and I'm struggling with things.
01:02:12
Speaker
And that's a taboo subject in the spiritual world because a lot of spiritual teachers project this image that they're kind of perfect. and you know Jeff Foster writes about how he went around staying at a lot of their houses and he was like pretty shocked about what was going on behind closed doors. and Maybe he was exaggerating that a little bit. but i think you know so I think we can apply that to the coaching world and the world of celebrated theorists and authors. And so I think like, what I find inspiring are the people I'm meeting who can have both, you know, like the
01:02:51
Speaker
there um they're not denying their their greatness in a way or their uniqueness, you know, that they are, there is something they they can uniquely do in this life. Like there's a unique music they're here to play, but also they're vulnerable.
01:03:09
Speaker
and they there they share themselves and their flaws, not out this you know and nothing has to happen, but yeah, in the right moments where that feels appropriate.
01:03:20
Speaker
And they're and they're they're massive supporters of others, you know so they're very attuned to their own shadows and they they offer they they did distribute the leadership in groups. They're not always in the center of the stage they they lift others up and others take leadership.
01:03:42
Speaker
that So that combination of the fluidity feels like a thrilling possibility for us, but we're not historically very good at being together. That's the thing, right? yeah Yeah.
01:03:57
Speaker
at least in not At least not in ah like, Western culture. um And I think that's the invitation, right? That is creeping in more and more is to have both and and to remember the group and especially welcome more and more people who we don't traditionally welcome or like in our, whoever we might be to see what can we learn as we have space for everybody to belong.
01:04:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. im just going to look. I had other questions here. um Oh, you had this great question that we could maybe take a look at. How can coaches remain at their developmental edges?
01:04:47
Speaker
Yeah. ah I like this question because what i noticed was there were times where felt like I made a leap towards my developmental edge as a coach. I mean, you know, and what that feels like for me is, is that I'm with another person and I feel thrilled to be there.
01:05:11
Speaker
ah Like I'm ah almost in a flow state, but it's not, the the exactly the same thing as being in a flow state, but you know there's just a sense of being at my edge, you know and and like um i just feel really alive, and i'm that i'm I'm taking a bit of a risk even.
01:05:30
Speaker
you know like There's something new and fresh about the way I'm coaching with someone. And I can contrast that to, you know I might be at that edge for a while, and then suddenly I might start to kind of, it might start to feel a little bit habituated a bit normal and ah you know like the edge starts to go away a little bit and I'm just a little bit less excited. and you know i'm It's not that we always have to be feeling excitement in a coaching conversation, but just painting a general picture. so
01:06:03
Speaker
Yeah. And I just noticed the contrast between those. And I just noticed that when I was at my edge, I just felt like my coaching was just a lot better. and My coaching is a lot better when I'm at my edge.
01:06:14
Speaker
That's not to say I'm not serving people when I'm not there. And actually, maybe there is a natural cycle. you know If you think about wrote the path to mastery, that we do we do plateau at times and then we make these leaps so But the the thing that I started to, when I actually started to notice that, that was the key.
01:06:36
Speaker
So I was like, oh, I can feel a little bit plateaued, a bit habituated. So that in of itself was quite powerful because it already kind of like opened my senses up to what was going on.
01:06:52
Speaker
And then what a question I found really useful was actually to start asking myself, what's the experience that I want to be having inside of the coaching session. And cause I often ask myself almost the opposite. What's, know, what, what kind of experience am I creating for my clients? you know, of course, you know, they, they are coming in with a clear, ah motivation and I'm, I'm honoring that too, you know, but, um,
01:07:20
Speaker
this question of like, what what kind of experience do I want to be having? ah I found to be just really joyful to to start to think about and to include myself in my own reflections on my coaching practice in that way.
01:07:35
Speaker
And, um you know, there are other things I think that help us get to our edge, like being introduced to new ideas and teachers that are different than the way we're doing, you know? So I think that was a bit more familiar to people listening, but.
01:07:50
Speaker
um yeah, I just feel there's this felt sense of being at our edge and we're so attuned at those moments. And yeah. Can you say more, but when you say edge, just for people who may not be familiar with this term, like what is that for you?
01:08:06
Speaker
How would you describe edge?
01:08:11
Speaker
So I think there's a, there's a way that I can describe it. both like from a kind of place of like, what's it like in the moment, but also, you know, if I look at like my my overall growth of a coach, as a coach, like what what what's going on there?
01:08:32
Speaker
And in a way, like what's it like in the moment is a little bit like what I've been describing. So um
01:08:42
Speaker
I come into a session I'm um the theories and ways of being of a coach that I have collected um ah in the background firmly. And even as someone who's felt like that for a long time, you know, like that I want to operate in what's unfolding in the coaching relationship in the moment.
01:09:13
Speaker
There are some, you know, in a way we're meaning making creatures. And what I found over time is that a lot of those like maps and methods and beliefs, the axioms that I hold, they're like, they're they're subjective. you know I don't quite, I don't know I'm holding them. you know So,
01:09:34
Speaker
um so there's but there's a sense of like really being in beginner's mind, perhaps um really being in a place of um
01:09:49
Speaker
the and where the unexpected can unfold. but not Not as an idea, but as a felt experience. and yeah um
01:10:02
Speaker
like i just like and It's the same as my meditation practice. its like you know I've done a lot of open awareness meditation practice and you know there's this opening into this bright, spontaneous, fresh awareness, but then the mind reifies it subtly, quickly.
01:10:19
Speaker
you know It fix ah fixates experience. and and And that can happen very subtly. and And over time with practice, you start to notice that more and more.
01:10:30
Speaker
And I think there's a similar process happening. so um that so Yeah, maybe I'm kind of saying the same thing from ah from a different angle.
01:10:41
Speaker
um
01:10:49
Speaker
I feel like there's something else I could say, but it's not. Maybe I'd have to sit for for an uncomfortably long amount of time. Right? You know, we're riding the edge at this moment where it isn't available, right? That's exactly what that, like, well, here we are. And what do I say about it i'm not sure yet.
01:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, I was about to say it. It's like, in a way, that your question has invited me to the edge of, you know, so there's a sense of palpating that what might come next.
01:11:25
Speaker
So, yeah, oh oh I'll leave it there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. Beautiful. One of other ways I feel edge. So I, I'm not going to repeat all you said. I echo it sometimes also edge to me feels like when I'm with a client and I can feel the, what would be helpful, like the helpful response.
01:11:48
Speaker
And my body is like, well, I don't have access to that right now. And that feels like edge in a different way. Like, Oh, I've really reached a maybe more of a limit on my capacity on that side of the spectrum.
01:12:03
Speaker
So that's then an invitation for me to go explore that later. What's going on there? That my response was either it felt maybe ah it was there, but it was muted. It felt muted. And what would have been helpful is like a fuller expression of it.
01:12:20
Speaker
So what was that about?
01:12:25
Speaker
Yeah. ah this is I love what you're saying because like I'm like, oh yeah, that's another way of seeing edge, which is so important, so beautiful. It's like these moments in a coaching session where something happens and I'm like, oh, what was going on for me there? What was that?
01:12:46
Speaker
well What was that? As opposed to like other moments where I feel very clean and tuned and so that I think is another you you are in a way it's like what I was trying to articulate but in a beautiful know from a different way and um you know one of the conversations I have with some of the coaches I know is a friend of mine Sean Wilkinson had this idea of mixed mystical arts so you know like so you've got m MMA like the fighting which is you know all the different styles and
01:13:19
Speaker
if if you're not good at, if you're not a generalist, you know, people have specialities, but if you can't do the jujitsu, then if they get you on the floor, you're
Integrating Ethical and Mystical Coaching Elements
01:13:28
Speaker
screwed. So like his his idea was like, what if we get together together?
01:13:33
Speaker
like, you know, high level practitioners. And we start to kind of sense like, you know, get into some coaching, ah Kung Fu, you know, like wrestle and, and, um, off be, be able to offer very refined, subtle feedback or reflections to one another.
01:13:54
Speaker
These distinctions that, that, really open up something. And Sean is like that for me. It's like he'll, we'll explore something and he'll, he'll offer a perspective and usually from the, ah the sense of immediacy of how it's shown in the moment. And it's like, like you said before that, boom.
01:14:12
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Right. yeah ah Like, okay. Now I'm, now I'm feeling that. Wow. but that That I think is something as coaches that is important for us to engage in that.
01:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Be in a community of coaches where that kind of thing is happening and possible. It's also, for me, endlessly exciting to know that, oh, it's never ending here.
01:14:37
Speaker
Yeah.
01:14:39
Speaker
Well, Joel, I want to see if there's, you know, we've been talking a long time and I've thoroughly enjoyed this. We might have to do this again. um But as we're kind of coming to the end here, i'm wondering if there's anything else you wanted to bring in before we wrap for today?
01:14:52
Speaker
Question or... topic. Yeah, I think that the, the, we can tee up for next time, but you, you may mentioned like the role of certifying bodies and regulation and, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:15:06
Speaker
That might be a bigger topic than, but yeah, yeah, that's a good one. I would love to talk about that as a, as a kind of cliffhanger, you know, I saw someone post about this on LinkedIn the other day, very articulately, very, very beautifully.
01:15:20
Speaker
And, uh, man, though there it was like, you know, a lot of responses, a lot of comments, a lot of likes to this. And the challenge was about the danger of, oh you know, collapsing coaching into a set of static competencies. And in a sense, like rather than as training to become the the masterful and mysteriously magical coaches we can be, like, you know, things getting...
01:15:50
Speaker
ah becoming becoming a real business, you know, like with levels and, you know, or, um you know, yeah, stages of like beginning intermediate mastery coaches and things.
01:16:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So this is good. We'll leave with the clip hanger. So people have to wait for the next episode to come on. Um, So that's exactly that part. And then this other part of, because I think some of this question for me was stirred by an article again that came out of maybe a couple months ago.
01:16:22
Speaker
And this is, I think, another shadow of maybe more the industry, not coaching itself, are the people who are in it for maybe other kinds of purposes other than helping clients, like just making money.
01:16:33
Speaker
So there was this thing about a person who had invested tens of thousands of dollars over several years and really felt burned. And when they started talking about it, it was like, oh, yeah, because the school was like, well, the reason you're not succeeding is because you didn't do your training well enough. And you need to hire us again to do your training. So it became this thing. And I was like, wow, this is so unfortunate that coaching has traction now. And of course, it brings in people who may have other intentions around it.
01:17:06
Speaker
And how to help people navigate. This is back to that question of how to navigate this, the wide spectrum of what's called coaching of the different levels of people's experience in terms of training and all of that.
01:17:23
Speaker
And I don't know if a regulating body is the answer, but it just, for me, brings forward this question of how to help people navigate and not be taken advantage of. Yeah.
01:17:34
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, it's just as a last sentence from my side, like that I see ethics gaining traction now in the field, which is nice. And and ethics for me, i was like, I was always like, oh, ethics. But actually it's it goes it goes right into the heart of what it means to be human. It's a fascinating way to, it's actually ethics is coaching in a way. It's like, but and and then the other thing is just, um you know, David Drake, I think has been writing a little bit about this dilemma of like the word coaching being diluted and different players in the field and all this. So yeah, people might want to check out his recent papers on that as well.
01:18:20
Speaker
Well, I've really enjoyed our time together. This has been fantastic. And I do think there's a whole thing we could talk about where we're ending here and, and more. So I really appreciate your time, Joel, and being in conversation with me.
01:18:34
Speaker
I really enjoy myself, Adam, thoroughly. Yeah, I just felt a lot of aliveness and kind of enjoyment from your questions and your passion, obvious passion for what it is to be a coach.
01:18:49
Speaker
Well, until next time, be well, take care of yourself. Thank you. Yeah. You too.
01:18:58
Speaker
spoken in there officially. And yeah, really. Thanks, Joel. It was real delight. Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, I know I can go off on one on like tangents about things. no it's great to me i love to I love conversational nature of these things. yeah People appreciate as a listener, I appreciate the podcasts that have that genuine feel to it where it's not so like staccato and like focused. It feels more alive.
01:19:25
Speaker
Definitely. I appreciated that about you as a podcaster, actually. I forgot to say it in the actual interview, but yeah, you hold a really nice conversational space, which I also, I can't listen to podcasts where it's too, so Derek, can you tell me? And then they answer it and then they ask the next question as if it's too like, well, you didn't go into that, you hardly spoke, you know.
01:19:49
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. just' like Yeah. Well, it's been great to get to know you too. I've yeah enjoyed that. ah Yeah, me too. Me too. Let's keep in touch, you know, and I'm happy to share this when it comes out if you if you want me to. and Yeah, that'd be great. So I've got to get on the editing and i'll I'll let you know and that would be wonderful.
01:20:09
Speaker
All right, Joel. Take care. Bye.