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The Strange and Suspicious Career of Dr. Andrew Kinkella - Ep 271
2.4k Plays4 months ago
This week we continued our APN Host Interview series with Dr. Andrew Kinkella, the fantastic host of The Pseudo-Archaeology Podcast and one of the co-hosts of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Andrew has done so many cool things throughout his career including excavating in Mayan Cenotes in Belize, working as a Community College Professor in California, and talking head on Discovery Channel style documentaries. After we chat about all that, we look at a recent news article about the supposed red-headed giants of Lovelock Cave in Nevada. Spoiler Alert, they weren’t real!
Links
- Psuedo-Archaeology Podcast
- CRMArchaeology Podcast
- Kinkella Teachs Archaeology youtube
- TMZ Strange and Suspicious
- Duck Decoys of LoveLock Cave
- The Ancient Giants Of Nevada And The Mystery Of Lovelock Cave
Contact
- RodsterAdventures
- Chris Webster
[email protected] - Rachel Roden
[email protected]
RachelUnraveled (Instagram)
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/archaeology-podcast-network?ref_id=5724
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Transcript
Introduction to The Archaeology Show
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You're listening to The Archaeology Show. TAS goes behind the headlines to bring you the real stories about archaeology and the history around us. Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:16
Speaker
Hello and welcome to The Archaeology Show, episode 271. On today's show, we interview Dr. Andrew Kinkella about his career in archaeology and the pseudo-archeology podcast. Let's dig a little deeper. And I'll tell you what, the deeper we get, the more strange it probably gets. It's true.
00:00:38
Speaker
Welcome to the show, everyone. Rachel, how's it going? I literally have no idea because you're in another room today. I am in another room. It's really weird to not be looking at you right now and like taking cues from your face. So I don't know what you're thinking. I'm thinking it's kind of nice not to see you for once because, you know, we live in an ah RV. So and along are you saying you're sick of me? Cool. no Well, got know we've seen each other a little bit more this week than we even normally do, you know, yeah which is all the time because we're on technically vacation. Yeah. No meetings. I canceled all my meetings this week, which is crazy.
00:01:10
Speaker
It's been just like, like lake life, right? Cause like my dad is from a lake in upstate New York and we've just been like at his family's property, like lounging by the lake all day long. It's
Hosts' Personal Stories and Banter
00:01:21
Speaker
been such a nice vacation. So can't, can't complain, right? We do go on vacation every once in a while at the APN. I know. And I've been sitting here just hitting refresh on our Instagram page, waiting for our thousand followers that I asked for. And, uh, we're up to 755 and I don't think anyone wants us to have in our repodcast. So yeah. I don't know what you expected. You're ridiculous. We've gained about 10 more followers and I'm just expecting it. We're going to blow up here any minute now and go straight to 800.
00:01:52
Speaker
like Yeah, I'm sure that's going to happen. You know, you have to actually post things on Instagram to be seen, right? Oh, that's right. Hey, I posted. Yeah. yeah So, oh, that's true. Good job. Okay. I know. Well, we got to get straight to the content today because you know, we, we, we've started ah a little bit of a series that's probably going to take us 25 years to get through because of the pace that we're doing this on. but We interviewed a few episodes. I feel like that was showing shade on me because I haven't gotten these together quick enough. A little bit. but yeah We posted a few episodes ago an interview with Matilda Seabreck. She's the host of a few of our episodes and our social media coordinator. And that was that was pretty fun. We liked just chatting about to her about what she does. And now we've got another host of one of our shows. In fact, he's a host of his own show and a co-host
Meet Dr. Andrew Kinkella
00:02:38
Speaker
of one of our other shows. This is going to be the first of a 900 part episode.
00:02:42
Speaker
only because of what he's involved in and what he does. All the things. All the things that he does. The stuff. The stuff. Right. But ladies and gentlemen, now presenting for the first time on The Archaeology Show, Dr. Andrew Kinkela. Welcome to the show. Yes. Yes. Dr. Andrew Kinkela. Oh, my God. I can't believe I'm here, ladies and gentlemen. Like, where's my career gone? You know, it was so high. And now, now here. And my favorite part of this show so far, Chris, is you started it with like, you know, Rachel, it's kind of good not to see you. I know. Isn't that great? Yeah, just had to dig himself out the whole time. No, no, I mean, you know, I mean, it's OK and all. Just like worse than worse. It's awesome not to be with you, wife. Cool. Cool, cool. Welcome to my old life.
00:03:32
Speaker
but
00:03:36
Speaker
yeah I'm not much of a people person, so it's fine. I'd rather be alone. yeah that That's okay. Wounds hurt. Wounds hurt. All right. Well, to to give some context in case in case this is the only show you listen to on the Archealgia Podcast Network, first off, that's probably not a good thing. There's great shows on the APN. second ah Andrew is the host of the pseudo archaeology podcast, which actually was one of the, it was, it was one of the first shows that was started when the archaeology podcast network became a thing almost 10 years ago. I was, it had a different host at the time and it had a different name name at the time, but the content was the same. And when that host decided to take her content elsewhere and she just, she just continued on somewhere else. That was fine. You know, we do that. We have a lot of shows that kind of come and go. We liked the
00:04:22
Speaker
the subject matter. And we felt that that was something like a few other, I guess, content lines, you could call them, that decide that we need to keep on the archaeology podcast network. For example, the CRM Archaeology
The Role of a Community College Professor
00:04:33
Speaker
Podcast. If all of us hosted the CRM Archaeology Podcast ever decided to leave, we would still have a show along those same lines, right? The Archaeotech Podcast. The Archaeo-Animals Podcast is no longer podcasting. The hosts are doing other things now. But a zoo archaeology podcast is something we will put in that feed at some point in the future, right? It's just the kind of stuff that needs to be on this network. Well pseudo-archaeology is a hot topic, you know, everywhere. And people love hearing about it. They love hearing things get debunked and talking about things and hearing the reality behind the fake stuff on, you know, the news, TV, things like that. And that's why we kept the feed alive. And then Andrew took over, God, what is it? It's almost three years ago now, isn't it? Something like that. I made you two and a half. Yeah, that's that's close. But I think I thought one of the things that was really interesting was the reason why we did it like, Chris, if you remember this, you were having a business meeting, right? The APN business meeting. We were zooming or whatever. And we were just looking at the data and it's like, hey, there's this pseudo archaeology show. It's been dormant for like four and a half years.
00:05:32
Speaker
but it still got like 400 views a month or something like that. yeah And I was just like, you guys, it's like you have a theater full of people and no show. yeah know So I'm like, dude, I'll do i'll do this. you know And yeah I do have to say, it's been a blast, dude. I love doing on the pseudo archaeology podcast. it's It's like a fun, it's just a fun respite. You know, for it's a little less serious. I can kind of joke around. i I always like to give it a vibe of it being recorded late at night. You know, that sort of yeah as it's as if it were recorded late at night. Yeah. Yeah. It does sound almost like that. Almost like it's actually recorded very, very sadly late at night.
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, but I just I've always liked that sort of, you know, wheels of steel to the midnight hour now, yeah you know, that kind of thing. Archaeology after dark. Exactly. Exactly. So um I've had a blast. I was worried initially. I'm like, dude, how many things can I talk about? You know, I'm like, oh, what if I get to like 19 things and I'm like, I'm out. But that hasn't happened at all. There's so much crap. Like that's what's that's what's actually it's sad that great. You know, at the same time, there's so much of this. I love the historical
Exploring Maya Archaeology
00:06:46
Speaker
figures episodes that you do where you're talking about people that sort of contributed to the beginnings of pseudo science and pseudo archaeology. Because it's like, oh, I had no idea this goes so far back. And it's got such a long history of people propagating these ideas. I know. Me, too. It's like I do that just as much for me as for the audience, if that makes sense. I'm curious. I'm like, I'm like, wait, Augustus Le Plunge on like this guy. You know, I heard that, right? And then there are these like major figures in this funky, almost occult, you know, our archaeology thing from like the 1880s. There's a bunch of them. And it's just it's odd. Like, yeah, it's interesting, but odd. Yeah. Well, you can see how like
00:07:38
Speaker
it's gotten popular over time and that's when those kind of people sort of become more popular because they've got these ideas like when the occult was so popular what in like the 20s and 30s or whatever and the people that had those kind of ideas also got popular and sort of their work and then it still is influencing us you know a hundred years later it's right just crazy to see that history. in time Time gives them more clout because when you look at the original documents and the original you know things that they said and stuff, it is just such complete horseshit. You're like, come on, this is an embarrassment.
Underwater Archaeology Adventures
00:08:14
Speaker
But the sands of time give it this weird heaviness that it didn't have before. And you sort of have to take that away and be like, no, no, no, no, this was as crazy as it sounds. Yeah, yeah yeah totally. yeah
00:08:27
Speaker
yeah Well, we can get into some of your other pseudo-archaeology related things later on, but the reason you first came to the network, and and really how I got to know you, was you were interviewed on the CRM archaeology podcast, and heather yeah Heather McDaniel, which is one of our hosts on the podcast, she's been with us, I mean, at least five years now, I think. quite a while. And she was one of your students. And that leads us to, well, fast forward after that. So you were interviewed. We liked you. We started talking to Heather. We were looking for some new hosts because we had some people cycle out, like happens. yeah And then you just became a host of the CRM archaeology podcast. And now you've been on that show ever since as well. So now you've on yeah you're on two shows and and it's working really great. So yeah.
00:09:11
Speaker
So I actually just happened to be listening to the CRM archaeology podcast and I heard Heather's voice and I was like, wait, that's that's Heather. And I don't have a podcast and one of my students does. How dare this happen? Right. So, yeah. So I, of course, used her to weasel into the APN. That's just what I did. That's just what I did. And now you're an integral part of, you know, two shows integral. Yes. Yes. Yes. That leads us to your day job. So in prep for discussing your day job, I watched the first two episodes of Community last night again, um just because I wanted to have a common frame of reference. so
00:09:55
Speaker
of course I didn't get to any paintball episodes, so why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit? It's just like that, just slightly more wacky, slightly more wacky. No, so I am a full time archaeology professor at Moorpark College in Southern California, and this is my 20th year, you guys. Wow. I'm old professor now. It's like old man Andrew over in his office, you know, being weird. Are they not like coming to like chat with you about
Archaeologists in Media
00:10:27
Speaker
likes like life anymore? It's not the same. some some but it You just have to let it go. you have to you know yeah yeah it's like It's like Alice Cooper. you know Lines form on my face and hands and they just do.
00:10:41
Speaker
And then I was born in 1972. I'm Gen X central. That is nice. Where you are and you are personified by basically personified. yeahp It sounds like a joke, but it's it's not. of So, yeah, man. and And I do have to say, i I've been so lucky with my job. I've been so happy with it. Like, man, you know, sometimes we make wrong decisions, but sometimes we make right ones. And and it just, it's really worked out for me. I've just, I can't say enough good things. I'm i'm one of those rare lucky people who just really likes their job. That's so awesome. What are you teaching like, ah like each semester? Like what kind of classes are you teaching there?
00:11:25
Speaker
Yeah. So for community college, a full schedule is five, right? Five classes. And I usually teach six. I usually teach like one extra um just for, you know, for some extra cash. Sure. And so really my schedule is like. two intro to archeologies, maybe one like mysteries in the ancient Maya. I might have to teach one like bio anthro or cultural anthro just depending like depending on, you know, um I might kind of generic type stuff basically like whatever they need. Yeah. Right. if If there's not enough archeology students, but there usually is. And then finally on Saturdays, I teach a full day Saturday.
00:12:01
Speaker
class on basically how to do archaeology, whether it be excavation or mapping or working in the lab. And then I put a new one on recently on like law and CRM. And I also pull in some historic archaeology in that. Oh, okay. How much of that do you get to choose though? Like they they say, Hey, you have to do an intro to archaeology. And then you guys kind of just get to pick the rest of paying out how many archaeology students are I want. Yeah, I basically choose it all. I, I like to say I'm the king of my own fiefdom. You know, I am the archaeologist.
00:12:32
Speaker
ah So I and the program, I basically made it like when I first got there, there was they taught like one archaeology class every other semester. And that there were there were one or two other things. But that was kind of what I've spent my career doing was bolstering the archaeology wing of the Anthrode Department. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I was just telling Chris that like, I do feel like people kind of bypass community college a lot. It goes straight to four year college. And I don't know that that's a great idea. Cause I, some of my best classes I took in college were the ones that I took at community college, like either in the summer or like one time I did like real bad in chemistry class. And I was like, I'm going to just take this at the community college. And.
00:13:13
Speaker
It was so much better because the class was small and the professor was so engaged and he cared so much about teaching us and it was just so much different than those big theater classrooms in a four-year college where it's so impersonal and you don't feel like you really get to know your professors at all. Yeah, it's like the world's like worst kept secret. And it's been true. It's been true for decades, you know, because because if you're teaching at the community college level, they hire you based on your ability to teach. That is the first and foremost thing. Everything else is secondary at the four year. It's not. It's all about research, you know, and that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but um
00:13:48
Speaker
But Rachel, I've heard this story again and again and again. And I do think, though, recently and kind of American culture in general, I do think it's finally sinking in because college is so expensive now. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That makes total sense because the reason I did it is because I needed to get some more credits and it was honestly just cheaper to do it at the community college in the town that I was from rather than, you know, doing an extra semester at the university that I was at. So yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, I will say we've been interviewing several people for new podcasts on the APM. We're planning on starting this semester. And one of them semester decided to... this Semester? Did I say semester? This summer. Yes, for the summer semester. of The summer semester. Got it. yeah
00:14:33
Speaker
And one of them, I'm not going to name her now because we'll so we'll see when we when we actually come out with a podcast, but she did decide to say, I think almost as an apology. She came out right in the middle of the little interview that Tristan and I did with her and said, I do have to say my professor is Dr. Andrew Kinkela. Oh We will not hold that against you. Oh no. You need to lose her number. You need to lose it that right away. Oh my God. Kinkela takes
Debunking Pseudo-Archaeology Myths
00:14:59
Speaker
over. No, that's how I do it. That's how I do it. It's slow and steady. All right. On that, I think we'll take our first break and we'll come back and continue this discussion on the other side back in a minute. Welcome back to the archeology show episode two 71. And we're talking with Dr. Dr. Yeah, I'm very, I'm very important.
00:15:22
Speaker
Why does everyone laugh after I say that? I'm very important. evil You are. You are right here. VIP. Yeah. Yeah. Title this episode VIP. There you go. If you know, you know, that's right. All right. So let's lead on to some of the other stuff you've done. You've worked a lot with the Maya. You're, you know, pretty much what we call, you know, one of those typical archeologists, like everybody's either museum or Mayan or, you know, Egyptology you're Mayan. So, you know,
00:15:58
Speaker
Yep. That's pretty much all we have to say. Chris, you can just say it like I am a walking, talking cliche. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Pretty much true. And I'm in the jungle with a satchel, you know, and a leather hat is way too hot. I was going to say you better have the hat. Yeah. Oh, my God. Right. No, but seriously, though, having been at Moorpark College and basically, you know, I mean, Southern California for 20 years, how did you even get into Maya archaeology? OK, so I just I got lucky in terms of I was at UCSB and there was a woman there who ran a Maya archaeology project. And this was like cliche in the best possible sense. She worked at a big Maya city in the middle of the jungle. Right. Nice. And and it was just I remember being a student and I was like, you could do that.
00:16:46
Speaker
Like you could you can go on that like how do I get on that you know and great so I think I was a junior the first time I did it and it was three months in the jungles of Belize and after I did that I was just like. Wow. Right. Like it was hook really, really cool. so know um And then I just I just kept coming back. Like I would I would ask the project, oh, hey, can you you know, do you need anybody again? And they would charge me much less and I would just learn more. So I just was like this crew member who just never left. You know, I just like. I just kept going, kept going, kept going. to The years went by. And so my career, my academic career in some ways is backwards from most people where I had a ton of experience in Belize, but I would get all this experience. Then I'd go, well, I should probably get a master's degree, you know, because I already yeah had like I already had the on ground experience. And then I would just go, go, go, go, go. And then I'd be like, you know, maybe I should get a PhD. And that's that's how it went for me. So it's backwards in a good way, I think.
00:17:50
Speaker
you know, backwards from most people because I had so much experience. I knew what I wanted. I knew how to do the stuff. And, you know, that's how that's how it worked out for me. So are your master's and PhD then related to the work that you did in Is It Belize? Right. Yeah. Yeah. yeah So it it all is ultimately like both my master's and PhD. So the my master's thesis was on one of the Cenotes basically in Belize. The cardboard is one. Yeah. It's very, very cool. Those are so cool. And then my dissertation was just an expansion of that because there's actually 25 cenotes in a row in that area. So I just expanded. And it was a lot of jungle transect work, you know, just mapping in the jungle. I did a little bit of excavation, but
Real Archaeological Discoveries in Nevada
00:18:32
Speaker
not too much. And then diving in some of the pools, too. OK. Yeah.
00:18:37
Speaker
Well, then I guess that probably leads us into talking a little bit about underwater archaeology, because I know you I knew you had done it, but I didn't realize it was in Cenotes. So that's really cool. So it's actually OK, look, I have even more. OK, because it's like cooler. So I've actually worked on a shipwreck tail. Oh, wow. Cool. Dude, I'm just you know, I'm just I know you're the coolest. We get it. Blah, blah, blah. So actually, the shipwreck was in northern California. So it was like very cold water. It was a passenger steamer that had sunk in 1908, I think. But that was that was a trip. That wasn't a very long project, like two weeks. But it was cold. It was dark. It was difficult. And even a steel ship, you know, underwater for about 100 years doesn't look like a steel ship anymore after 100 years. It was all like broken down. But it was it was fascinating. Like that was that was cool. That was a tough project. You know, it's cold and all that kind of stuff. But then the Cenotes are much easier just because they're warmer, you know. So yeah. And it's funny. A lot of people ask me, how do I get into underwater archaeology? And it's actually a really hard question to answer because most underwater archaeology programs are focused on shipwrecks. Right. So if you are. into historic archaeology and you're into shipwrecks. OK, there's a path for you. But if you're into like the Cenotes or anything like that, it's a way different like my path in underwater archaeology is just really weird. Hmm. I kind of made it work, but I don't have any degrees to say underwater archaeology. I never had advisors to say underwater archaeology. I just I have a dive master certification and I'm very comfortable in the water and that kind of stuff. And I just used I doubled down on my strengths, which is what I tell my students to do.
00:20:22
Speaker
yeah I feel like I feel like a lot of archeology, like you get that yeah that question all the time and I've interviewed, I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of people and the questions are always how, did you know, how did you get to where you are and how do you do what you do? But the answer is always some variation of, well, I kind of just put myself in that position and I became that. yeah Like I, like I got in front of all these people and that's what I ended up doing. i tried Like I just needed it. yeah It's like, you just keep pushing until you're the only person left. it ran right Like it's things like,
00:20:55
Speaker
Working with Lisa Lucero in Belize, she was my mentor and great friend. You know, I had shown that I was a good student archaeologist and I asked her, I was like, Lisa, there's these cenotes in the top of the project area. Like, you know, what if I do my master's thesis? Like, it was my idea, you know? Yeah. And she's like, OK. And then it was up to me to, you know, buy some tanks and do the whole thing from there. So you just go for it. So what came first, the scuba certification or the archaeology? The short answer is the scuba certification, because I was always a water-type person. like I enjoyed surfing. I was on the swim team in high school. Oh, right, with Southern California. and Yeah, although i although I grew up in Northern California, so there was ok okay some cold swim meets, man. Yeah.
00:21:40
Speaker
But that, again, that was always a part of of me and what I do. So I was always just jazzed to get my scuba certification and learn about that stuff. It was fun. Gotcha. Nice. Cool. OK, so then
Conclusion and Future Plans
00:21:52
Speaker
back to the actual like specifics of doing archaeology underwater, because not being a scuba person and not, I'm like not even, I can snorkel, but like I'm not even like super comfortable with it. you know I'm comfortable in the water, just not with like being underwater like for that long, you know? I used to be near Rachel with a snorkel on her. I only pulled it off your face and almost drowned you one time, okay? You're fine. god You're okay, wants qui up Chris. You know, he's been bitching about it for like 15 years, so I don't want to hear it anymore. rachel Rachel, I'm here for you, okay? I hear you. Thank you. I only almost drowned him once. yeah That's fine. No, but like like from a practical standpoint, you know, how long can you go down? How okay yeah yeah work are you doing with each dive? Like how to what's that look like for you? So, yeah, so that it's it's varied. And the short answer is it's really slow and really expensive. Like every every time, you know, yeah and the deeper you go, the worse it gets. So the shipwreck I worked on in Northern California, that was only like 35 or 40 feet. OK. It was very cold and very dark. You could only see maybe like six feet in front of you, but you could, because it's only, let's say 35 feet, you could stay down for like an hour, like no problem. Or even what actually called the dives was the cold. We would just get too cold. So we always had enough oxygen. We just like too cold and had to get up. But in the Cenotes, the Cenotes can be very deep. The deepest one I worked on was 240 feet.
00:23:21
Speaker
ah Wow. Yeah. So normal diving, you cannot go that deep. And even though I'm a dive master, I don't go like lower than like regulation level, which is around 125 feet or so. And even by then, you don't have much time. Right. So some of the years that we worked in the Cenote days, we actually had National Geographic divers come with us. And I learned so much from those guys. That was so fascinating. You know, but so they and they would have all the crazy stuff like Trimax and where they can go rebreathers where they can go and go to 200 feet. Right. So I I became I always say this like on my own project, I almost became.
00:24:01
Speaker
a secondary person on my own project, but my project became bigger than me. And I always relate it to Fight Club. If you've ever seen Fight Club, there's a scene in Fight Club where Tyler Durden, you know, is out there in his like robe and he's looking around at the house and there's just all these people like doing all this stuff. And he's like, what happened? You know, because this used to be just his idea. I had that exact exact same experience like at this notice. I'm like, there's all these people doing all this stuff. Like, it's cool, but who am I? look at You're just coordinating it, basically, right? Yeah. it was You became a project manager. yeah Yeah, it was nuts. It was so weird. But that was good. It was safe. They were better divers than me. That's OK, you know? Yeah. um But it was, yeah, that was really fun. The early days were really exciting, too, like carrying the tank deep into the jungle and, you know, trying to dive for the first time. Oh, my God.
00:24:54
Speaker
And what kind of stuff were you guys finding at the bottom of the cenote? So the simple archaeology or like so. So there would be like broken ceramic vessels and stuff like that, you know, pieces of stuff that the ancient Maya would have thrown in as part of like water ritual and this kind of stuff. But as an extra added bonus in one of the cenotes, about 60 feet down, there was a layer from the ice age and there was a giant sloth skeleton like in the side of the cenote. Like it looked like a cartoon almost like just this giant sloth skeleton in the side of the cenote. Wow. And we originally thought we originally thought that there was a bowl down there in ancient Maya Bowl, but it wasn't a bowl. It was the ball joint of the giant sloths arm. Oh, geez. Oh, my gosh. That's crazy. That's so cool. pretty That was nuts. Yeah, that was great. Yeah. I'm so fascinated by that stuff, but it's neat stuff anyway. Yeah.
00:25:51
Speaker
Well, let's pivot just a little bit because we always kind of joke on your various shows about your media presence. But you do but you do actually, I mean, you keep yourself in in various places, right? You've got a YouTube channel where you you've got some some YouTube stuff you do. You've been on various TV shows is ah as what we call a talking head. yeah doing various things yeah yeah I mean, just tell us about some of that stuff that you've done over the years and and how you've kind of gotten yourself into that. Yeah. So about about five years ago, I just had this moment in my office where I was just like, screw it, I'm going to take this seriously. And what I mean by that is there would be people and I'm sure this is happening to you guys, too. There would just be people online who would just like.
00:26:33
Speaker
eat like cold email you and be like, you would be really great for doing this sure archaeology show. You know, and it was always. Yeah, you guys know how this is like. It was always just ill organized and just weird. And I'm like, what is this? But I'd had drama experience way back when I was on this improv comedy team for a while. I'd done a lot of theater stuff. And so it kind of dawned on me. I'm like, dude, the productions are coming to you. If you were an actor like this is nuts, like this is so great that they would come to you. So I just I I organized myself. I started my YouTube channel and I got an agent through past preservers like Nigel. Right. Nigel Hetherington through past. And then that was like five years ago or so. And since then, I've just I've done the like talking head thing, like you said, on Discovery Channel or the Science Channel. You know, when they do like the ancient Maya Deep in the forest. And then they cut to me and I'm like, well, you see the pre classic. I started at 250 B.C. And I've had I've really enjoyed that experience. It just it brings together both my enjoyment of kind of theater stuff and my enjoyment of archaeology stuff. Yeah. And so most recently, it's culminated in a new show that's actually on TMZ called Strange and Suspicious. Hmm.
00:27:49
Speaker
Strange. Yes, which is ah like a little half an hour show. And if you've seen TMZ before, like where you have Harvey Levin and he's interviewing, it looks like almost you reporters, right? Like a like 10 reporters in a room. And usually on TMZ, of course, they talk about like celebrity and that kind of stuff. Yeah. But yeah but they just are decide to do a new show on like ah mysteries and that kind of stuff. So this does hit on stuff like ghosts and aliens a little bit sometimes and that kind of stuff. And you're like, hey, Andrew, how dare you even do this? You're like destroying your own career. But.
00:28:25
Speaker
What I really appreciate about them is they let me just say my piece, you know, like I get to say if it's like, oh, no, that's actually not true or I don't believe in that. or And they've been they've been only cool. So I've i've really enjoyed my my time with them. And how did you feel like the they were editing you? Did you feel like they were letting you get your words in or were they kind of cutting you off and like? Not always. Not always. It just depends. It's like it's like if you watch some of the clips or whatever, sometimes you'll be like, hey, wait, it seems like King Killa says that there's such thing as aliens, you know, but other times other times you'll be like, oh, yeah, well, he says there's no alien. And I was torn about that at first.
00:29:04
Speaker
You know, because ah other professional archaeologists will say, oh, I went on ancient aliens and I hated how they cut me, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. But yeah I swear you guys, I've thought about this a lot. And I think it's super important that somebody who's labeled as an archaeologist gets anywhere in the media. You know what I mean? To be like, oh, this is a real person. And it's like if if people are interested, they can always Google me or whatever. And they know in two seconds, like, you know, how I really feel about these things. And and Honestly, again, I've really enjoyed the show. I I'm happy to be a part of it. And I just I hope that more archaeologists again, I don't have to talk to you guys. You're part of the APN. But I wish more people did what we do. Like get out there. you'll You'll hear stuff like, oh, you're platforming them. Like, no, you're not. We lost the platform decades ago. They're not forming us. You know, so get platformed archaeologists.
00:30:00
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Probably one of the one of the people with the biggest voices in archaeology today is probably Joe Rogan. I got to say. Yeah. Yeah. And he's the one talking about stuff that people want to hear. Absolutely. And I got to give the guy credit like he's super fascinated about archaeology. You can tell you get on his voice. He he freaking loves it. And so, you know, good he's doing it. I hate all these like, you know, pie in the sky academics who are like, well, I will only be on the documentary about my own research. And it's like, yeah, that's never going to happen. And you're boring as hell. You know, like you have to be able to grab the audience. You just have to work as nowhere.
00:30:36
Speaker
Yeah. And like riding the coattails of one of these shows that are bigger and have a bigger audience, like, okay, it might not be the perfect way to do it, but at least you're trying to communicate to people. Yes. You know, whatever it is. My big note to all of us in the archeology community is just stop waiting, right? Get off your ass and do it, do it, do it, do it. You know, it's only good. So real quick, just looking at a couple of clips of the show, Strange and but Suspicious. It is like a bunch of quote unquote experts. I won't put the quotes around you, Andrew. You're the only expert. like you know quote unquote experts I have to I have to defend those guys. A lot of them are actually real experts. like Like there's there's people who are in law enforcement. Yeah. And there's there's someone who's like an astronomer, someone who's like a mathematician. Like they're there.
00:31:24
Speaker
Again, I know you want the secret dirt. Andrew, tell us how terrible the people are. But I just can't. They are consummate professionals, they know how to talk, and they know stuff. They're cool. I love just listening to them sometimes, like some of the murder ones, to have the law enforcement people talk about it. I'm like, wow, that's fascinating. I mean, you're speaking my language. I'm a big true crime fan. There's a bunch. There's several true crime podcasters on there, too, like big names. Yeah. And and they, of course, you know, having run a podcast for years and years and years, they know that true crime world. Yeah. I just when we get a true crime one, I just kind of sit back and listen. I'm like, wow. And I learned stuff live, you know, which is which is that's awesome. but Along those lines. Yeah. What I was wondering is a lot of you guys have, including you have like a, like a stack of papers in your hand. Is this, are you, well how much information are you giving ahead of time? And are you able to do some like research? And is this notes that you're about to reference?
00:32:26
Speaker
So this has happened like with every show I've ever been a part of, you know, whether it's on Discovery Channel, like it's all the same. Yeah, they they don't. I'm laughing just because people think sometimes that I have like a script. I'm like, are you just kidding? Have you heard me talk? Does that sound scripted? You know, like, but. But what they do is they basically give you a beat sheet, you know, where they have researchers and then they'll do something like, you know, this one murder mystery from 2010, you know, or whatever. And they'll give you the setup. They'll be like, oh, on March 20th, 2010, this happened. And they basically have a beat sheet and then they have some links to stuff where we can do our research. So usually the day before filming, I take several hours. It takes a while.
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah. And i I go over the stuff and I see what I can add you know with my specialty as an archaeologist. I'm like, oh, I can talk about this, you know, like ah because that's cool. And they again, they're they're really open to us adding to it, to not saying stuff we're not comfortable with. Like they're they're totally cool about that. Nice. yeah that so That sounds that sounds really fun. We're going to have to watch it for sure. It's out now, right? It is. It is. So you can find it um on YouTube and then also it's on Fox at different times, depending on where you are in the country. I think in Southern California, it's on at three thirty in the afternoon. Those are called time zones, but we'll link to it in the show notes. Oh.
00:33:50
Speaker
ah yeah It's like on it's like on on the show, it's like I'm learning something live. I'm learning something from you. You have to be open to it, right? Yeah, you do. just yeah Right. Okay. Well, with that, let's go take a break. but And on the other side, we'll talk about something else fascinating, the red-headed giants of Lubbock, Nevada. Back in a minute. and
00:34:17
Speaker
Welcome back to The Archaeology Show, episode 271. We're here with Dr. Andrew Kinkella, and we are going to disgrace his academic talents by talking about the Lovelock Giants. You can't disgrace me. There's nothing left. There's nothing left. There's nothing left. No. All right. It's more of a debunking, right? Well, yeah. All right. All right, so the reason I feel like we're bringing this up is there are two reasons. One, this is kind of in the pseudo-archeology wheelhouse. yeah and you know so we're we're gonna bring Like with Tilly, on you know for her show, we brought something up that was kind of in her wheelhouse as ah as to discuss you know because it fits with the archaeology show, it's a news article. And here's the reason it's a news article, because it's not even news. We've seen this article come up around, I think two or three times in the last probably month or two. And when you really dig into the sources that they link, it always goes back to, usually there's like an, an archeology magazine article from like three or four years ago where they brought it up again and nothing is actually new though. But the the headline is always archeologists discovered giants in a cave in Lovelock or whatever, or redheaded giants, or it's always like it happened yesterday, right? yeah yeah
00:35:23
Speaker
But in reality, it happened a hundred years ago and nothing new has been done. Yeah. And when I read this article, I immediately thought of Dr. Kinkella diets. diets i think fraud i think No way. Well, the reason I thought of you, though, is because like this is exactly what you've talked about in a lot of your episodes, where it was something like super small that happened 100 years ago, and then it just keeps coming up and coming up and coming up. And now there's redheaded giants in Lovelock, Nevada. Exactly. It never, ever, ever dies. And it's yeah just because people want it to be true. It's a slow news day. They just bottom of the barrel this shit, you know, and it's just never, ever.
00:36:11
Speaker
ever, yeah you know, and you know, it's funny. Recently, I've kind of been like, am I getting a little burned out on some of this? Because it's it's made some of it makes me more mad than it used to. Yeah. You know, because it's like you've read it for the hundredth time. I wonder if like Jeb card and Jason elevator and Ken Fader. You know, I wonder if they all feel the same. Yeah. Where you just get to this point where you're like, Huh, you know, because it's just yeah so easily debunked and it's so frickin lame and it has no it's like, give me a little bit of like style, you know, give me some give me something with a little bit of fun here, not just some dumb article. And I want to say one more thing before you do it.
00:36:54
Speaker
Isn't it funny how giants are always 10 feet tall? They're always 10 feet tall. Always. I've read so many. It's standard. Exactly. but The SGH. The SGH standard is 10 feet. And it's like, yeah, so see, giants measuring feet. You know, they're just 10 feet tall. Anyway, that's just something that I've noticed recently. Yeah, like why can't they be 50 feet tall? I never really thought about that before, but like, what yeah. You know what, Rachel? Because that's crazy, OK? That's what you are we Bart. We're trying to get people to believe this crap, right? So, yeah. actually says
00:37:33
Speaker
Standard temple height in Greece really in Rome is, you know, for people to be 10 feet tall, which is where a lot of your giant stories come from. Really. if These are off. These are, these are wacky offshoot giants. that didn' second stringer giant Yeah, definitely. with the mormons when oh man let's spread that rumor It'll never die. It'll never die. All right, Rachel, give us some background moments. All right, real quick. So this is Love Lot Cave in Nevada. And the reason we picked this story, the other reason, not just that it reminded us of Andrew.
00:38:07
Speaker
But also because Chris and I have done some work in this part of Nevada. We worked on a big pipeline that went across northern Nevada like way back in the day when we were doing CRM and love, you know, it went right through the Lovelock area. So though we haven't worked in this cave, we are familiar with the archaeology in this area. And this cave is amazing. So if we don't take anything away from this conversation, you should take away that that the archaeology in this cave is fantastic and there are no giants. And we should focus on the fantastic archaeology.
00:38:40
Speaker
You know, what's funny is the pseudo archaeology crowd will dismiss you because you didn't work in the actual cave. They'll be like, you only work near but crap all the time. Yeah, they totally do, don't they? There's always a line. You don't work on the cave anymore. Yeah. Anyway, we've kind of been near the cave. So therefore yeah we are experts now. So, so the basic just here is like about, you know, 120 years ago, there were some guys that were mining guano back one or whatever. And they found all these artifacts in the cave and they did a lot of excavation and they found some amazing things, including these duck decoys. This is why I like really want people to like know about this because those duck decoys are super unique. They're really I didn't realize the duck decoys were from Lovelock. Yes. And they found like, they found like thousands and thousands of artifacts and 11 of them were these duck decoys. Eight were complete. Three were unfinished, which was really cool because I got to see like the insides and how they were making them. And then a bunch of them are on display at the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian. So like these are some really important and really interesting artifacts.
00:39:52
Speaker
And they look great. I mean, they look just like ducks. You know, they look, yeah, they're really well done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So of course, what do we do? We brush by that and decide that there were giants here. why do Why do I come on this show? You know, like this just brings me down every time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like not to give it too much because we really don't want to talk about the Giants too much. They're super dumb. But there is like a a legend, a Paiute legend for of the Sea Taka. And it was written down by this really important
00:40:26
Speaker
Native woman, Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins, who was the daughter of a Paiute chief. And Winnemucca, of course, is a town in in Nevada, right in that same area that Lovelock is also in. And sure, of course, they had all these legends, and that makes total sense. But This idea that they found the remains of like giant humans in the cave is not true at all. And I'm not even sure exactly where they're getting with it. It just seems like it was a journalistic sensation back in the day and it's it just keeps sticking around. That's the best I can come up with for it.
00:41:00
Speaker
Again, you know, going through all this stuff is I've gone through probably hundreds of this stuff at this point. It's just always the same. No creativity. You know, I'm like, Come on, give me. OK, you're saying they're giants. Give me something cool. You know, like, like go for it. But they don't. They got nothing. It's because they don't. They're ignorant in basic archaeology. So it's like you or I could make a way better giant story than they do. You know, but yeah, their story sucks. The picture in the article is is passed around too, and I'm not even sure that picture completely looks doctored to me, and I'm not even sure where that even came from. And yeah you know how not worth our time it is to go find that? yeah That's the other thing that drives me nuts. It's not worth our time to read it. It's not worth our time to debunk it. You know, it's maybe a little worth our time to have a little fun with it, but the rest is just like it's a waste of time.
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. yeah That's why I really wanted to talk about like the whole actual archaeology aspect of it. Because when that stuff gets buried by these pseudoscientific stories, it's very frustrating because there is really cool archaeology here. yeah And it just gets shoved aside. The first time I heard of the duck decoys was I was a grad student in like a, I don't know, like a pretty high level archeology class with a local California archaeologist who was teaching it. And it's like, dude, I should have heard about that way before, you know, the duck decoys. decoys are freaking awesome. Like I should have heard about that in like intro to archaeology or, you know, slightly thereafter. It's it's yeah sad. I'm sure you guys come across this. It's so sad that there's so many cool stories like that. Real ones, the duck decoys kick ass. But yeah instead of that, you have the one thousandth giant red hair, stupid story.
00:42:36
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, and that, that red haired thing. So there was a historian, Adrian Mayer, she wrote about this in her book called fossil legends of the first Americans. And she, in her book, she was like, yeah, there was probably like rusty red color from something as it was decomposing in the soil. It might've even been from actual hair, you know, cause they, they did find remains, but it it just, it's not that the hair was red. It's just like this color that the soil takes on from decomposition. no so her
00:43:07
Speaker
her Yeah. Yeah. And also, oh, we have to talk about the 15 inch sandal, right? Cause I saw that. I actually didn't really find a whole lot of evidence about that. I just saw it like an offhand mention. I don't, I don't really know know. It's just going to be some like basket piece or something. If they even have anything if they yeah at all, they just bullshit it. You know? Yeah. It just sounds like, and and these rumors go back it to like the twenties or whatever. It just sounds like there was like some sensationalism. They're probably trying to like,
00:43:39
Speaker
i don't know sell a story to a newspaper or bring in tourists or something like whatever their goal was but yeah it just twisted the and they remain the remains are real there really were was the remains of people in that cave it's just they weren't giants they weren't redheaded they were just native remains that were buried in this cave, you know? Yeah. And they were duck hunters with some killer like duck decoys and yeah other stuff. I think they had other like I think they might have had other like duck hunting equipment or something like that. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Really neat. And the preservation, you know, that to get something like that preserved like that is so rare. Yeah. So it's just it's really great. Yeah. Chris, didn't your professor work in this area? ah She because she's a textile archaeologist, right?
00:44:23
Speaker
ah yeah Dr. Melinda Leach, she did work and she definitely worked in the Lovelock area, I know that, but she's worked in and on a lot of collections in that narrative area. so yeah and Back in the 80s and 70s, one thing that really gets me about these articles, just back to the quote-unquote news article, first off, this is from ah a place called, I don't even know what it is, indie100.com. It just like has all these random things. yeah yeah it's so dumb It's just one of those clickbaity sources that just is whatever it is, right? And I don't know who this Harriet Brewess is that actually did this, but the article, let's just put this together. The article is dated June 25th, 2024. Now to her credit, she does link to Archeology World where she says, according to Archeology World, if you click on the Archeology World article, which is where everyone else who's reported on this in the last month also links to, it's June 5th, 2022. These people are literally just
00:45:18
Speaker
This is two exactly two years ago. And they're literally just on the day, they're searching what happened like on this day, what was reported on probably. And then they're just regurgitating the article and then waiting a few weeks. They're taking a few weeks to publish it in their cycle, getting it through their system and then and then repurposing it and reporting it back you know and and calling it back and citing it. and And then we click on it and give them money. And that's pretty much how that happens. And it's just irritating. I know i'm I'm almost about to like not link to any of these articles in the show notes because I don't want to give them any more links. Link the world archaeology if you're going to link to anybody. Yeah, totally. But but you know Chris, i like when I originally found this, it was actually back in January.
00:46:00
Speaker
And did it, I sort of saw it and I took some notes and I was like, do we want to talk about this? Do we want to do it? I don't know. And I kind of put it in our hold place where we put stuff on hold that we're not really doing. And then the story came up again. So it's like kind of six months cycle. Like every six months, somebody finds it, somebody regurgitates it, and then it's back in the news again, which is why we're still talking about this. I don't know it amongst all those Belize articles. those doesn't write is All my stuff. yeah
00:46:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I know. Okay. So I guess our conclusion is there were no redheaded giants in loveva Nevada. Rachel, you got to open your mind. You're so close minded. You're just, ah just another part of big archeology just with your, with your story. Smack down the man. backing about will Open your mind. Yeah. I'm going to find an article or a page or something about the duck decoys and link to that though. Those are so cool and everything you see them for sure. I think that's great. The other stuff that the Paiute did with Reeds, because in the, the Lovelock area, in the, Oh, what is Fallon, Nevada, in the Fallon area, because the Fallon, the cave Rachel, what is the name of the, the little rock art area off the rest stop just east of Fallon? The heck is that called? Not Gerlock, right? No, not no, no. Anyway, there's ah there's another cave out to the east of Fallon where a lot of cool stuff has been found. There's a lot of little caves where back in the 60s, 70s, 80s, actually, a lot of PhDs were made. David Hearst Thomas did a lot of digging out here. There's a lot of people that got PhDs just just digging and finding cool stuff. And now it's very important. They're very important if they have a. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unlike some of the people we've had on this show, those PhDs are actually... Those are weird. Yeah. These are no real ones. These are real PhDs. But some of the things the Paiute have done with the like the reeds that would grow up in these like marshy areas and stuff and the baskets and the the sandals and the duck decoys and the things like that that they would make are just amazing, amazing artistry. And they and the preservation in the caves where we'd find some of the stuff is just ridiculous.
00:48:15
Speaker
The preservation is insane all across northern Nevada, so they find some of the most amazing things there. You know, I love listening to you guys talk about like the archaeology of Nevada. You know, I think it gets short. I'm serious. You know, like I think it gets like short shrift and it's that's one of the places where I'm like when I'm 80 years old, I can see myself ah like walking the plains of, you know, northern Nevada like that. That could be awesome. And you'll still find stuff just like walking around. That's the thing. There's so much still in the state of Nevada. So there's so much unexplored territory. You absolutely could find stuff. Note to note to like PhD students. That's where to go. Don't be the fourth thousandth Maya archaeologist. Go to they like northern Nevada. It's yeah open. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much to do there. So much to find.
00:49:01
Speaker
Yeah, all right. Well, we're coming to the end. What's next on the ah plate after Strange and Suspicious for Dr. Kinkewa? You know, I don't I'm just living day by day, Chris, you know, just take again ah I'll tell you what it is. It's to it's to record my actual pseudo archaeology podcast episode, which I'm sure is hey it's always late. Yeah, it's on my plate. Nice. Hey, there you go. I love to hear that. that I know what I want to do, too. I got my next one. I want to do Amelia Earhart because actually, oh, do it. Yeah, we did a segment on Amelia Earhart for Strange and Suspicious. And this is one of those times where I'm like, oh, sweet, I could just like, you know, repurpose this because it was actually on my list, you know, to do. So I'm like, oh, I just did this impression in my mind. There's some really cool new stuff. There's some good stuff. And we just talked about some recent so was it so in our images, Chris, that we just talked about that they found of an airplane image? Pretty sweet. Like, yeah. It's the best I've ever seen. Like, yeah, it's the best possibility ever. Yes. Since 1937. Yeah. Yeah. We've had a we've had a number of people on from the search familiar heart on this show and a couple on Sarah Mark podcast in the past years, including Tom King, who was part of the Tigard. Yeah. Research project until he had a little bit of a calling out. As as was said in Indiana Jones, they're digging in the wrong place. Yes, they are. It does seem like they went on the wrong path. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Indeed. Well, we look forward to hearing that because I'm excited to see where the research keeps going there for sure. You're like, I'm looking forward to hearing that when you would get off your ass and record it already. Record it. Yeah. If you need to just keep this rolling and we'll back off. Keep it going.
00:50:47
Speaker
archeology pun
00:50:51
Speaker
yeah All right. Well, for anybody listening to this, you've got two things to do as soon as we're done here. The first one is go follow us on Instagram. Roadster adventures. you want to hear ah Andrew, we had a challenge that if we got to a thousand followers on the Roadster adventures, Instagram page, which which is our RVing one, but we also do like archeology stuff on there too, then we would start an RVing podcast separate from all of this nonsense. Right. So it's a challenge. We've had 20 people have, ah have heeded the call. follow them to follow our page in two weeks. I'm going to purposefully not follow it. That's what I'm asking. Perfect. That's what we would expect. Perfect. I don't need, you know, you I don't need you guys. You're way too important for us, obviously. Yeah. and Well, if I don't hear on Strangers Suspicious, you know what else is Strangers Suspicious? The Roadster Adventures Instagram page. That is Strangers Suspicious for me.
00:51:45
Speaker
the is Yeah. But anyway, check the show notes, go check out Andrew's podcast and the suit archeology podcast. And if you are a real glutton for punishment, you can check out the CRM archeology podcast. But I've always said, if you're not a CRM archeologist, I don't know why you will listen to that show. But if you want to be entertained, sometimes there's some good stuff on there that is entertaining, but it really is for professionals. But the suit archeology podcast is, it really is entertaining. I do. ah on a show It is for a broad audience. yeah You don't have to be an archaeologist to understand stuff over there. Sometimes you do, but on some of our shows. But um this one is is made for a wider audience, yeah much like this show is. so And also make sure and go follow Andrew on YouTube, right? Oh, that's We didn't really even talk about YouTube, but... Kintella teaches archaeology. I just did. I just turned over 5,000 subscribers. You are famous. I know. I know.
00:52:37
Speaker
I'm very important. I know. I know. We'll have links to all this in the show notes. Of course. Yes. All right. Well, tune in next week for part two of our 900 part series on Dr. Andrew can tell us the age of seven. but Okay, it's going off of us. Yeah, let's go. Indeed. Thanks Andrew. Thanks everybody else. no Thanks Rachel. Alright, we'll see you later. Bye!
00:53:14
Speaker
Thanks for listening to The Archaeology Show. Feel free to comment in and view the show notes on the website at www.arcpodnet.com. Find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at arcpodnet. Music for this show is called, I Wish You Would Look, from the band C Hero. Again, thanks for listening and have an awesome day.
00:53:38
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.