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UNEARTHED - The Mystery of the Shaman Woman - 2024 Arkhaios Grand Prize Winner - Ep 283
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Today’s episode is a special one where we interview Director Christian Stiefenhofer. In the first segment he gets a special announcement from Arkhaios Film Festival founder Jean F. Guilleux. We discuss the amazing documentary that Christian and his team put together and in the last segment, Rachel and Chris wrap up the show with a discussion about the film.
Youtube: https://youtu.be/3VWgYoOok9Y
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Transcript
Introduction to The Archaeology Show
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You're listening to The Archaeology Show. TAS goes behind the headlines to bring you the real stories about archaeology and the history around us. Welcome to the podcast.
Guest Introduction: Christian Stiefenhofer
00:00:16
Speaker
All right, welcome to the show, everyone. Joining me today is Christian Stiefenhofer. He was born in 1970 and studied German language and literature, communication studies, and American cultural history in Munich. During his studies, he directed and subsidized 16 millimeter short feature film. I'll get this wrong. Nechtit. How do you pronounce that? Nechtit. It's called it. Nechtit. It's Nechtit. Oh, okay. Nice shift. That makes sense. yeah He then worked as a permanent editor for the science magazine, Welder Wonder. Since 2002, he has been a freelance author and director of documentaries, reports, and image films. Christian lives with his wife and son in Hamburg. Incidentally, my mom was born in Hamburg when my grandfather was in the army. So welcome to the show, Christian. Thank you very much. so Thanks for having me.
Film Overview: 'Unearth the Mystery of the Shaman Woman'
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah. So you were brought to us because you directed the film on Earth, the mystery of the shaman woman, which is part of the archives film festival this year. And we've done some other interviews for the archives film festival. So why don't you just tell us a little bit about how, how this film came to being like, what, what brought you to this subject?
00:01:22
Speaker
and The good thing for me as a filmmaker was that they're like the main scientist of this project, Harald Mellor. He wrote a book with an author, Kai Michael, and they released the book. They were in the middle of, they didn't have ah published ah the studies and things like that, but they found the story so worth telling though that they wrote this book.
00:01:50
Speaker
And this was a bestseller in Germany, because this this story is just it's it's it's just a great story. And so a production company in in Munich, Southern Braus, they read about the story, they read the book, and then they immediately said this has to be a major documentary in in German television.
00:02:09
Speaker
And they did some research and i was they they've been told they they should contact me because I have a track record of of scientific documentaries that are also entertaining and and modern. so And that's so yeah how it came about. And so, yeah, so there was a book on this story
Production Challenges and Techniques
00:02:30
Speaker
already. Nice. Well, so the story is really about ah a 9,000 year old grave of a shamanist called the shamanist of, an and you can help me pronounce this bad Duremberg is what it looks like.
00:02:42
Speaker
It's not bad, it's bad. It's like a spa where there are fountains, you know, and so yeah this this healing, healing. And that's also, of course, part of the story. Yeah. Bad Duremberg. Bad Duremberg. Okay. And what were some of the the big challenges during the production of this film because some of the elements that were included were, it looks like computer graphics simulations, you had you know filming some of the some of the technicians in a laboratory setting, obviously interviews are archival and historical footage. I mean, this film included a lot drone footage. I mean, there was a lot of elements in this film. Yes. So the main thing I could go into a lot of details, but I think the the most important thing is
00:03:29
Speaker
If you want to tell a story on that level that we are used to, that's for German primetime television. It's a broadcast Sunday evening primetime. So it has four million viewers. This program, it will be ah broadcast in November. So for this program, you have to you have to produce ah a film with a high production value. And normally with a story like that,
00:03:55
Speaker
we would have the scientific part, the documentary part, and then we would cast actors to play the parts or some parts of what happened 9,000 years ago. It's like a feature film ah element in a documentary. But in this case, the special thing was, there's a technology called Unreal Engine. And this comes from gaming. This is how as as you might know, like the the modern computer games, they look more and more realistic. And the actors in there, they look very realistic. And this engine can produce any realistic movements or actions of of virtual actors in real time. And the idea was to use this technology
00:04:49
Speaker
because and and for the first time it has been done at a few projects in German television but this was really like a front-runner thing because the thing the the great idea was we can And we know that they the the scientists were going to have a 3D reconstruction of the face. And with the skull that they have, the skull is beautifully preserved. And so with this new technology, you don't have an actress that plays the shaman, but you can take the the scientific data of the face reconstruction and put that
00:05:32
Speaker
on a virtual actor that you create with this but this software engine.
Benefits and Limitations of New Technology
00:05:39
Speaker
And so what we done is we took the data. we We still needed actors in a studio. It's called motion capture. So you capture all the movements of actors. They only wear suits. They don't wear like stone age costumes. They it just were suits with tracking points.
00:05:57
Speaker
And afterwards, you can map the face of the shaman and other people and the clothes as the science the arch archaeologist's belief looked like. And so what we could do was we could create humans that looked like humans 9,000 years ago, and we could create also the landscape, how it possibly, and but ah with all the data have have looked like has looked like 9,000 years ago in the middle of Germany. So yeah this is the fascinating thing. We got like a tool that that allowed us to to write and shoot compelling scenes.
00:06:45
Speaker
but based on scientific facts and not like we took actors to Finland in a birch tree forest and do like its Mesolithic times. So yeah, that was the but challenge and and the opportunity. and and It was not easy because the technology is not so established. So there were a lot of quirks and errors. And we had, especially in the post-production, we had to struggle a lot. But yeah, I don't know. I ah don't know. Maybe you can tell me if you like the the outcome. ah it was It was actually really, really good. I mean, you could, with any new technology, I mean, you could obviously tell that it was like a computer animated kind of kind of thing. Sure.
00:07:32
Speaker
But that didn't really take away from it either because I thought it was thought it was really well done. But I think a question I would have for you because of the because of the advantages you have in that, was it more expensive to do it this way because of the newness of the technology ah versus like flying an entire production crew to Finland and costumes and all that stuff? you know it it Is it going to be better for filmmakers in the long run to perfect this technology and because it'll come down in price? I think you have to really decide. i mean i'd say in ah for a story like this it it has
00:08:06
Speaker
definitely its advantages. For anything that's more in the in the present, i'd I'd go with, because one main advantage was that it's mainly in forests and and, you know, on a river. But if you have to create a whole city with the new technology, that might be a lot of ah maybe even more ah ah challenging to make it But the cost factor with all new things, there was a lot of post-production manpower put in to to get the results. But yeah, as I said, ah the the the opportunity to do it and then the possibilities.
00:08:47
Speaker
are really great because as a filmmaker it's like kind of a childhood dream because you can say the camera now is in a bird's eye view and then I want to have the camera on behind this tree and you couldn't put the camera anywhere you like in this 3D world.
00:09:08
Speaker
ah So it's a dream. But on the other hand, you cannot tell the actor once the thing is is captured, you cannot make any changes and you cannot say, smile a little more than it's it's a difficult ah difficult thing to tell these, they're called meta humans.
Film's Success and Historical Narratives
00:09:27
Speaker
They should smile a little bit more.
00:09:32
Speaker
Nice, nice. All right. Well, I have a few more questions that I think we'll save till segment two. But before we do that, we've got a special guest kind of waiting in the wings here. Let's bring him on now. Go ahead and turn on your video. Jean, how's it going?
00:09:47
Speaker
Hi, Chris. Hello, Christian. Hello, Jean. Nice to meet you. Good to see you. The Arceus jury president, Guy Perot, he's a filmmaker, could not be here today. Okay. But he wrote three points ah about the film, ah uneths the the mystery of the German woman. His first point was, the storytelling is excellent.
00:10:14
Speaker
Thank you. And it's very compelling to the general viewer. He continues by saying those with a strong interest that in archaeology will find it completely absorbing, as will the general public. And um concludes as a filmmaker This is also quite a feat for the filmmakers. With that assessment, I have an announcement to make on behalf of the Arceus 2024 jury, and its ah jury president and its president Guy Perota. The grand prize of the Arceus Film Festival 2024 is attributed to an host
00:11:10
Speaker
the mystery of the Sherman woman, director Christian Stephen Hofer, producer Nicola Cole, Germans. Wow. Congratulations. That's really, really great news. Wow. umm ah Congratulations. That's so nice to hear. And the the the words of Kie Perota in your mouth,
00:11:38
Speaker
Yeah, that's really ah humbling. and ah here why i'm I didn't expect that any prize was announced today. Well, congratulations again and I'll let you ah go back to what you you are doing ah in the interview. Well, that was a nice interruption. um Thank you for letting me ah pop in. Thank you. All right. Well, with that fantastic announcement, we'll take a break and we'll be back with segment two. Back in a minute.
00:12:14
Speaker
Welcome back to the archaeology show and we're here with Christian and she's got some additional questions about the filming of this documentary. So I'm curious about the Mesolithic environments and things like that. Did you guys bring on additional experts in archaeology in these environments or was it the archaeologists involved in the the excavation and the research for the book and the things like that that helped do that recreation. It was a mixture of both. So we asked the archaeologists involved
00:12:47
Speaker
what facts they have on the landscape of this area, what kind of tree seeds and things like that they have found, and like from this time or so. And also because this group of scientists is based with the museum in ha So they do a lot of visualizing ah Mesolithic ages too. So it kind of, they had a lot a ah lot of of data and they did like drawings of of this time. And so we could use that. And and then also, but they also asked um other other specialists to to give us some some hints about
00:13:35
Speaker
what was possibly the last because of course it's a long time and you cannot be sure 100% but but this is what we show is how it may have looked like and with a with a high possibility sure sure and who Well, I guess I should start with how did you get funding for a project like this and who funded it? Because it must have been it must have been pretty highly pretty high in funding for something like this. Well, it's a I would say it's not like a super high budget, but it's just yeah it's a good budget for documentary. And this comes from, as I told you, the time slot when this program, it's part of a
00:14:19
Speaker
and It's the most acclaimed science program in German television. It's called Terraix. And this is a Sunday primetime program. And so they they gave the main budget, but there's also a second network called Arte, which is a French and documentary channel and documentary and arts and culture channel. And so this was like a co-production between the two of them, but there was no public funding or things like that. it's It's from these two networks. Okay. And are there plans to do any other documentary films like this or following up in this genre or or anything like that? We would definitely love to do more, but the story has to be has to be right for it. As I told you, i
00:15:14
Speaker
yeah I would not see like to use this technology technology technology in a 1900 timepiece or something like that, but if if there's a similar story or project in archaeology that would be sure really great because in the next years this technology will evolve dramatically even and it will be even more easy to to a adapt this technology to environments or humans that you want to create and so I think that's one of the the biggest challenges for making films about archaeology is that
00:15:56
Speaker
It's all stones and bones, you know? And what how can you visualize these were people living, they had lives, they had emotions. And so this technology really offers a lot of possibilities in this field. Outstanding. All right. Well, anything else you'd like to say about this production, your experience or or anything related to this or the Archdiocese Film Festival?
00:16:25
Speaker
One thing that for me personally personally was was very entertaining about this whole story is it has this Nazi component because the first digging was in 1934 and the Nazis the the archaeologists who were involved in the case, and this time they wanted to show that Germans are like the blonde Nordic kind of Aryans, you say Aryans. yeah And they want to have proof that that Aryans are from
00:17:01
Speaker
this area, the German area. And of course, Aryans are from Iran iran and and and north of of India. And so they really searched proof. And when they found this, these bones, they they said we found proof that this is like the the ancient area. And so they didn't see that it's a woman, they thought it's a man, of course.
00:17:30
Speaker
So that was their first mistake. and And then the second thing is that with the archaeogenetics and the yeah analysis they that they did in the Max Planck Institute, yeah in in our and it showed it's a dark day she had a dark skin. So that's for me is really in this situation in Germany where the the far right is is coming up. So this is like a very great example for
00:18:01
Speaker
how you judge things. So they thought it's a blonde male and Aryan. And in reality, with the science you can show it, it's a woman with a dark skin, as all people had in Germany at this time. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I love that aspect of the story. Right. Right. Yeah. Incidentally, listeners to this show know it's it's amazing in the last couple of years, we're finding that it wasn't just Germany in that time period. A lot of archaeological scholars in the twenties, thirties, forties, even fifties and sixties were white males in that time period. Right. and And Germany had its own thing going on, trying to prove their ancestry. Right. But it wasn't just them. They had their own motivations, but there was a lot of people who were in that and
00:18:52
Speaker
you know, white male category, trying to say, you know, put putting male and female into certain boxes. And we're finding out a lot in the last couple of decades, yeah and and really a lot in the last decade that this sexual division of labor and different things, is just which simply just wasn't true. And women were doing things that, you know, We're not true that we thought were true in the archaeological record because men said this and in in the fifties and thirties and forties. And it's just everything's changing and for the better. And we're having a better understanding through genetics and through better analysis, to be honest with you. And and we're we're changing a lot of what we've thought were long held assumptions.
Impact and Future of the Film
00:19:30
Speaker
Absolutely. And that's what I love about this story. So this is like the most advanced grave
00:19:38
Speaker
in in middle Europe that will that that you will find and it belongs to a woman. And um so yeah, she might be very, she'd have been very powerful and very fascinating person. And so yeah, these are the interesting stories and and only because there's there's a stone knife of a many knives, of course, I don't know that the the the specific expression. But, yeah of course, and as you said, in the 50s, 60s, archaeologists said, okay, there's a knife that must be a man. Right. Right. Or an axe, you know? and yeah But that's not true. No. Well, I got to say, it was a a beautiful way to tell the story through your film, and we really appreciate that as as archaeologists. It's really hard to communicate
00:20:28
Speaker
archaeological evidence. Right. And this was this was done. And like I said, it it was done in a very beautiful way, ah a way that gets the technology and the in a very complex story across. And I think it's going to educate a lot of people around the world. And it's going to and it's going to get that story out there. So and congratulations again on the Archaeos Film Festival Award.
00:20:51
Speaker
Well, I have to thank you again. That's really mind-blowing. Such a present for for us. And I guess when when it's it's out, we will really have some champagne here in Germany, I can tell you.
00:21:06
Speaker
No, thank you very much. And I hope this film could be, I think it's in, so the the network put it in world distribution. I hope it can be seen in him in some channel in ah in the US um so very soon. And yeah, it's ah it's a great story. And yeah, thanks. All right. Well, thank you, Christian. And we'll be back on the archaeology show to wrap this up in segment three. Thanks a lot.
00:21:30
Speaker
Welcome back to episode 283 of The Archaeology Show. If you're watching this on, well, if you're listening to this, I guess, on the podcast like normal, there is a video component, which we don't often do. But since this is for the Archaeos Film Festival, we did have the first two segments where we revealed, obviously, the winner of the Archaeos Film Festival. So, and I did that interview, but now we're bringing on Rachel to talk about the film. Yes.
00:21:55
Speaker
Yeah. And there might be some little tendrils of stuff in the video here because it's actually 49 degrees out Fahrenheit. It doesn't feel that cold, though. Like, I feel totally fine right now.
Storytelling and Technology in Archaeology
00:22:08
Speaker
I don't know about you. Well, that's because we're sitting in front of a fire. Well, that's where the little stuff here. I was going to try to get the fire for ambiance in the camera frame, but it's just not going to work. Right. I don't want to be zoomed out too far, but we're still sitting in front of the fire because, you know, it's cold. It's fall. But we have hot coffee, hot tea, tea representing notes.
00:22:25
Speaker
notes yeah so uh all the stuff you don't normally see on the podcast yeah so yeah there we go yeah all right so anyway let's talk about unearthed the mystery of the shaman woman again this was very well done and you can't actually see the film yet unless you participated in the arch aos film festival and we were told again not to release this until the announcement was made so As you're seeing this, the announcement has been made, but it's actually not releasing in Germany until November, I believe. Some time in November, yeah. And I don't know when it's going to release in the United States. Well, he didn't have distribution yet, I don't think so. No. But we got to see it because, you know, in preparation for this interview. We had to see it.
00:23:08
Speaker
Yeah, and honestly, this movie was so cool movie. Do you really call it a movie? Documentary. Documentary, yeah. So, okay, here's what it was. It felt like an episode, a really well done episode of some kind of scientific documentary that you would see on like National Geographic. Like anything that you would produce or whatever. Yeah, but but it didn't feel like sensationalized. yeah Like those kind of shows often can. The story building and the storytelling in the episode was super well done so that you didn't... yeah I don't know, ah sometimes those shows can just like focus on like some of the the sensational stuff and then like lose the story, right? But this one, like storytelling was clearly like first and foremost and they did a really good job with that.
00:23:52
Speaker
Yeah, I thought the the graphics were really well done. As we talked about in segment two, they used ah a really relatively new technology to do all the computer graphics. And I really like where that has the potential of going. Yeah, I was a little not unsure about that when I first watched it. But after hearing the interview, like I totally understand why they did it like that. And it actually makes sense. And he was saying in the interview that like he wouldn't want to do it for a more recent.
00:24:21
Speaker
time period in history but this very old time period was it like mezzolithic or something like that I think it was it worked perfectly it was great and they really were able to like recreate the feeling of being among the people that they were using this like video game technology to represent right so that was really cool yeah it was pretty neat so anything that kind of stuck out with you in the film that maybe maybe was not represented accurately or anything like that that you couldn't remember? I don't know. I don't really think so. I mean I again it was this like the storytelling was so good that it felt like it started it almost felt like it started going in one direction and then tied up in another direction just because the story sort of meandered through about who this woman was in the burial, what she was thought to be when they first uncovered her, you know, by the Nazis. And you guys talked about and that in the interview a little bit. And then what newer research has shown that she actually was a woman and that she was a shaman. And I think for me, the most interesting piece of the whole thing was this not disorder, but
00:25:30
Speaker
this so the this issue that she probably had in her spine or they can see that she had in her spine where she could make her eye eyelids flutter yeah by tipping her head way back. And I just thought that was so cool because that's like a ah disorder basically, right? But because of that, she would she would have been able but to spin that into like a a shaman. Yeah. She was a shaman because of that or in part because of that. So having a disorder in the past may not have necessarily meant you're an outcast. It might have made you a really, really important person to this community. So it is interesting because I feel like I can't point to where I've seen this before, but I feel like I've heard of that in in the last few years of maybe that specific thing with the eyelids, but also certain other what we would call disabilities today.
00:26:20
Speaker
being advantages in the past, as long as it didn't say, you know, slow you down, yeah like some sort of physical disability that, you know, like I said, with some some sort of like slow you down or something like that, but something that would make you stand out and make you different, make you different enough to like where people are like, oh my God, that person is, you know, communicating with spirits or power yeah, some sort of special ability or something yeah and really did, you know, kind of set you above everybody else, which was an interesting way of of looking at it. so Yeah, and like totally randomly, but kind of related. We have a new show on the, on our pandemic called ADHD BCE, e where the host is actually like looking for that kind of stuff and talking to people who are experts in that kind of, what does he call it? Neurodivergent. Neurodivergent. Yeah. So each so cool. Well, yeah, and what I like about it is, and what I hope George, the host, goes with this is, and where he where he kind of wants to go with this, is you know people aren't generally looking for neurodivergent traits in the archeological past, specifically, at least not yet. At least not everybody. yeah Some people probably are, but yeah what I would like to see him do, and and other people do, is maybe bring on guests that have worked on sites like the one in the film, yeah and then look at these and say,
00:27:37
Speaker
Okay, look at this through a different lens and yeah say understand what these traits might look like and say, wow, some of these people may have had certain, what we would call disabilities today, yeah or these neurodivergent traits, which aren't necessarily even considered disabilities anymore. right And say, yeah, I think we can see evidence of that yeah just in the in the way people behaved or act or maybe certain burials or something like that. Yeah, I think that it's easier to see when there's a physical manifestation in the bones like this example in the movie. There's a physical representation in her bones of what this disorder looked like. But I'm sure that there's a lot more that maybe aren't represented in the bones that you have to look for in different ways. And it's really interesting to look for that stuff yeah and try to figure out where it
00:28:23
Speaker
where it is and how it might have made those people different, how it would have changed their relationship to the community, if at all, maybe it didn't, who knows. So yeah, interesting. All right, well, we hope everybody gets a chance to see this movie. yeah If you're in Europe,
00:28:39
Speaker
especially in France and Germany right you're gonna be able to watch it on like regular TV next month sometime yeah and then I know they're hoping to get it in a wider release and hopefully it'll make it to you know one of our streaming platforms or something because it's so worth a look can people still watch it if they sign up for the Film Festival? I'm not sure how long it's going to be available at the Film Festival because everything it's a virtual festival. Yeah, and all the movies were free to watch if you signed up for the Film Festival. We'll have a link to that in the show notes. If it's still there, it's still there. Great. Go check it out. If not, then you'll have to wait until it gets released more widely. I would say the minute you're watching this podcast, go check out the links in the show
Film Viewing and Educational Value
00:29:15
Speaker
notes. because we're linking to the Archivist Swim Festival. Like she said, it it is a free sign up, so go check it out. It's an hour long documentary, yeah so go look at it. There's no commercials or anything, so it is an hour long, and it's definitely worth a look. And if you don't have time for that, there's a whole bunch of short films on there that you can go take a look at some of her are just a few minutes long.
00:29:33
Speaker
some of the ones we talked about in the past episodes. Yeah, there's there's some really cool stuff on there to see for sure. Yeah, there's a lot of really neat things. So I think with that, we'll call it here. Yeah. And go check out some of the films and we'll be back next time with our thoughts and experiences on some of the things we did in Washington, D.C. a few weeks ago. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. All right. See you later. Bye.
00:30:00
Speaker
Thanks for listening to The Archaeology Show. Feel free to comment and view the show notes on the website at www.arcpodnet dot.com. Find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at arcpodnet. Music for this show is called, I Wish You Would Look, from the band C Hero. Again, thanks for listening, and have an awesome day.
00:30:24
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.