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Justification Revisited: Maximus the Confessor and the New Perspective on Paul
48 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, Dr. Andreas Bergman joins us to discuss his recent open-access article, The Maximian Perspective on Paul: A Reconstruction of the Works of the Law and Maximus the Confessor. We begin by outlining the main features of the Old and New Perspectives on Paul, particularly the contested meaning of the phrase “works of the law” in Pauline theology. From there, we explore how Maximus the Confessor’s ascetical theology complicates and enriches this debate. Dr. Bergman explains Maximus’s tripartite division of the law (natural, written, and spiritual), his understanding of motivation in relation to justification, and how Maximus can, in different respects, be seen as aligning both with and against key elements of the major interpretive traditions.
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Transcript
Introduction to Andreas Bergman
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, welcome back to the Dynastical Circle Podcast. Today we're joined by theologian Andreas Bergman, who earned his doctorate from the University of Helsinki and recently published an article on the new perspective on Paul and say Maximus the Confessor. So we discuss his article in this episode.
00:00:17
Speaker
Enjoy the conversation. I was
Bergman's Journey: Lutheranism to Eastern Orthodoxy
00:00:19
Speaker
born and grew up in Finland, which is of course a secular but traditional Lutheran country. I was born into a nominal Christian family.
00:00:28
Speaker
I was a teenager when experienced some sort of a religious just conversion to Lutheranism. And I got very interested in learning more about the faith. So i I started studying 16th century Lutheran sources. And I found this theologian called Martin Chemnitz.
00:00:46
Speaker
And actually, I've devoted most of my academic academic career to Chemnitz. And this Martin Chemnitz is the probably at least is one of the greatest patristic scholars of the 16th century.
00:00:58
Speaker
And his aim is to prove that the Lutherans are the true heirs of the ancient church and that the trident in Catholicism had departed from this patristic faith.
00:01:10
Speaker
And he uses a lot of patristic quote text and patristic material in his works in order to refute Catholicism. And through Chemnitz, I first encountered church fathers I got really interested in studying the works.
Theological Perspectives on Paul: Old vs. New
00:01:28
Speaker
I started buying some some English translation translations of patriotic writings. And one of them was this small collection of Maximus the Confessor's, of excerpts from Maximus the Confessor's works called On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ.
00:01:46
Speaker
ah And as a strict confessional Lutheran, I was maybe 20 years old. I tried to understand Maximus, but I couldn't understand word.
00:01:57
Speaker
ah Then seven years ago, I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. And maybe a few years after that, I got the idea that, hey, maybe I should try to read Maximus again and see if I can now understand him better.
00:02:11
Speaker
And this led me to academic study of Maximus. So I would say that And foremost, because of my but background, I'm a reformation or late Reformation scholar, but I often say that patriotic is a hobby of mine.
00:02:26
Speaker
and And in this article that you mentioned, I think I tried to combine these two interests of mine, like Reformation theology in the sense that Reformation centers and and around the question of justification, and then patriotic through Maximus the Confessor.
00:02:43
Speaker
Would you say that Maximus was important in the conversion process to Eastern Orthodoxy or was was something else, another thinker maybe more?
00:02:54
Speaker
Not Maximus really wasn't. I think it more it was more like some lives of some Orthodox saints who really impressed me. Great. Yeah. so now i'm turning to your article.
00:03:07
Speaker
Could you maybe tell us about the two schools of Pauline interpretation. On the one hand, we have the new perspective on Paul. On the other hand, we have the old perspective on Paul.
00:03:18
Speaker
What defines each of these schools? Okay, so maybe I should say first that it is sometimes questions that whether there is such a movement as the new perspective on Paul, because so many different kind of thinkers are categorized under this one movement or school of thought.
00:03:38
Speaker
ah Nevertheless, I think there are some broad themes that these exegeses share in common. oh One fundamental presupposition of the writings is that the Apostle Paul can be understood core correctly only as a first century Jew.
00:03:58
Speaker
And then these theologians of the new perspective argue that the Protestant reformers and the so so-called old perspective on Paul has misunderstood Paul because they have read him through these 16th century presuppositions and anxieties and various questions.
Justification and Works: Lutheran and Orthodox Views
00:04:16
Speaker
And then there are this number of or several issues which are connected to this misreading of Paul. And one of them is this question of the works of the law, that what do they actually mean in the original?
00:04:28
Speaker
Paul in context. Just real quick to summarize though, like, you know, we have in Romans three, the famous saying, you know, for we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
00:04:41
Speaker
And then also you have a similar kind of statement in Galatians and So it's pretty clear from that, that justification ah being declared righteous by God, works of the law, whatever that is, has no role in achieving justification.
00:04:59
Speaker
But then it's like the question becomes, well, what do we mean by works of the law? And that's kind of what divides the two perspectives, right? Is answering the question of what is Paul referring to it when he says,
00:05:13
Speaker
you know, works of the law do not play a role in achieving justification. That is all correct. And the old perspective on Paul, the the central claim of this school is that when Paul excludes these works of the law from justification, he intends to say that human works, like any works conceivable, have no role to play in justification, which they understand as this kind of a Well, forgiveness of sins, this kind of a imputation of righteousness of Christ to a believer is this kind of a divine transaction where where we receive this kind of a foreign righteousness from Christ, which is imputed to us solely through true faith.
00:06:00
Speaker
But then there are the new perspective on Paul does not coincide the works of the law similarly. They argue that the works of the law refer primarily to certain precepts of the Mosaic law, the Torah, like circumcision,
00:06:21
Speaker
um keeping off keeping the Sabbath, some dietary laws. And when Paul once excludes works of the law from justification, he intends to say that a pagan or a Gentile convert to Christianity does not have to or need need not become a Jew before he can become a Christian.
00:06:46
Speaker
So there are no, this the Gentile convert is not obliged to follow Jewish rich ritual law or the Torah more broadly.
00:06:56
Speaker
And this this is the crucial difference. i think mattu and we've got to I think we go to J. Thomas at some point, but he makes a help helpful He puts this kind of quite helpfully when he says that the old perspective tends to stress like works of the law and then the new perspective says like works of the law.
00:07:18
Speaker
So the difference is on the emphasis. So for old perspective, works are for a problem in the context of the justification. For the new perspective, it's the mosaic law.
00:07:30
Speaker
That's the problem if that is required from the Gentile believers. So yeah, just to, to, to review, it's like the new perspective wants to say works of the law is referring to maybe something a little bit more narrow, which is these mosaic boundary markers of Jewish identity. So maybe like you said, the Abrahamic sign of the covenant circumcision, the dietary laws that come in the mosaic context, the Sabbath observance, those various things.
00:08:05
Speaker
um when when Paul excludes works of the law from justification for the new perspective, he's excluding boundary markers, that these boundary markers of Jewish identity are not necessary, not sufficient for achieving um a right standing with God.
00:08:28
Speaker
Um, and then it seems like the, yeah, the old perspective, which I guess, you know, one would just associate with like classical Protestantism, right. Um, the old perspective is going to have these works of law refer much more broadly to, yeah, like you said, like any, you know, any work, any human effort to, um, earn righteousness.
00:08:55
Speaker
Um, I mean, so i guess like one quick just clarification question. i'm kind of curious, like um for some people who aren't familiar with this issue, they might be surprised to hear um about the old perspective because like, you know, um and just seems like some kind of works is going to be a dimension of Christian life. um You know, true faith,
00:09:25
Speaker
is going to be presumably you know include charity and other other sort of types of activities. So could you just you know would you mind commenting on that? like The old perspective does still include works, I guess, but it's more like it's not the ground, right? Isn't this the way they put it? It's not the ground of your justification. It's just sort of evidence of your justification. Is that the right way of putting it? Yeah, I think that's that's that's exactly it. So that the origins of the odd perspective
00:10:04
Speaker
are very strict on this matter that works must be excluded from justification and justification the issue of justification concerns the what are the grounds of the relationship between and man ah a human being and god and but but then they do i think well historically at least all protestant theologians have believed that this justification is followed by a life of renewal by the spirit so when one is justified when one's relationship to god has been re-established or there's this gracious relationship between ah christian and god then then and a christian necessarily becomes a partaker of the holy spirit
00:10:54
Speaker
and this holy spirit affects this renewal which results in fruits of the spirit which are a good fruits if one does it does not have good works it's evidence that one does not have true faith so the works are there but they're consequence of this justification but for for the protestant reformers it was very important to exclude from works from this the the doctrine doctrine of justification because they They had this pastoral concern that if works are are there a part of a justification, then a Christian can never be certain of their salvation.
00:11:28
Speaker
And this was the key issue of the Reformation, at least the Lutheran Reformation. So, okay. Interesting. So, so you would say the primary motivation for excluding works from the ground of justification is the worry about assurance.
00:11:47
Speaker
How can you really have assurance? if if works are included in the ground of justification. and And then then the theologians for the ah theologians of the new perspective on Paul claim that, okay, that was completely a foreign idea to Apostle Paul, that there's no indication of any worry about certainty of salvation in his writings.
00:12:10
Speaker
so that So the 16th century Lutherans read this concern back to Paul's writings. And that's the way how this Protestant interpretation of Paul like was found.
00:12:24
Speaker
Interesting. I mean, there are biblical passages, which like I don't recall right now, where Paul expresses some kind of what what appears to be some kind of assurance.
00:12:38
Speaker
And so it's not as though the assurance issue is entirely... um unmotivated I mean, would you you you would agree with that, right? Like it's um anyway, i mean, I just, yeah, I don't know. Just just pointing out that like, yeah, there there is an element of like, you can find these like passages in Paul where he says things that like seem to express a kind of assurance, at least seemingly.
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, but I think the difference is at least, I actually did my most doctorate dissertation on Certainty of Salvation in Martin Chemnitz. And for him, the crucial show difference between his position, the Catholic position, is that the Catholics do a allow some sort of a certitude of hope, that one can have this hope and deep hope that one will be saved.
00:13:27
Speaker
But for Chemnitz, that is not enough. For him, certainty is more like this kind of indubitable assurance that one will be saved. And then of course, the question is that does Apostle Paul, when Apostle Paul talks about assurance in some places, to what kind of assurance does he refer to?
00:13:49
Speaker
Great. Okay. So let's now talk a little bit about the more recent work of Matthew J. Thomas that you engage in your article. And then, yeah, we're kind of inching closer toward your thesis here. We're kind of just still setting the ground here. i hope it's useful for the listeners. But yeah, let's get closer to your thesis, which obviously has to do with Maximus the Confessor.
00:14:10
Speaker
Can you first tell us a little bit about the recent work of Matthew J. Thomas? um It seems like he's made an important contribution to the debate between the old and the new perspective on Paul.
00:14:22
Speaker
Yeah, so Matthew J. Thomas is a theologian who has expertise in early reception of the Pauline Doctrine of Justification. And um his great contribution to this debate is this, I have a paperback version of his book, I think this is from 2020, I cannot remember when the hardback came out, but ah His book is called Paul's Works of the Law in the Perspective a Second Century Reception. So he studies how the second century church fathers understood the Paulian term works of the law.
00:15:00
Speaker
And Thomas argues that that's if we compare their position to this contemporary discussion on Paulian interpretation, they come much closer to the new perspective on Paul than the old perspective.
00:15:17
Speaker
And he reaches this conclusion by posing three questions ah to these early Christian sources. First is what are the works of the law? Second is what is their purpose?
00:15:27
Speaker
And third is why are Christians not obliged to observe them? And th Thomas justifies this, um his focus on the second century by claiming that reception history has real value in interpretation of historical sources.
00:15:45
Speaker
um During the second century, and he argues, there was still a living memory of the apostles and their teaching. And therefore the witness of the second century fathers can help us better understand Paul in in the first century context.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, so the the kind of figures he's dealing with, I guess, are like, what are they they're going to be? Like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch.
00:16:14
Speaker
yeah Some of those. Yeah. Okay. Okay. um Okay. Awesome. And so the idea is that actually, if you look into this, yeah, the second century, we're set the second century Christian context.
00:16:32
Speaker
The figures are actually closer to the new perspective rather than the old perspective. Now, I actually, I'm just curious, like you mentioned, so this is kind of going against ah the person that you studied.
00:16:44
Speaker
or your kind of primary, um, expertise, Martin Chemnitz, right? Cause you were just saying Martin Chemnitz was held that the patristic sources were in line with the ref, you know, the re the ref, the classical reformation reformation position.
00:17:02
Speaker
Whereas it seems like Matthew J. Thomas is going in the opposite direction as cabinets. Would that be correct? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Um, Now, ah just to be clear, like one thing that I guess that this is important, a reason this is important, because it's like there's a whole accuracy debate about the new person perspective. It's like who is actually accurately describing Paul?
00:17:28
Speaker
And if the second century patristic authors are in line with the new perspective, that obviously doesn't prove that ah the new perspective is more accurate to Paul, but it does provide some probabilistic evidence because it would be surprising.
00:17:48
Speaker
It would be surprising if Paul was actually an an old perspective and then really quickly in the second century, we slide into the new perspective. So, so point being that, you know, um the work of
00:18:05
Speaker
ah Thomas would seem to suggest that the new perspective is more accurate. Is that is that kind of important? Would you say that's like kind of the stakes? Yeah, I think so so. There is no knockdown argument against the old perspective, but but we can make this probabilistic case against our relying on the second century fathers. It looks much more credible that the new perspective on Paul is onto to something.
00:18:31
Speaker
yeah Yeah, no, actually, Thomas has, I think it maybe few years ago, here he published in the St. Andrew's Encyclopedia of Theology, it's free freely available, an entry on justification, and he goes through the history of justification, starting from the early fathers. So this work that we are currently discussing, it centers around the term, works of the law.
00:18:56
Speaker
But that the entry in the St. Andrew's Encyclopedia, it's a more broader entry, and and I think it's quite interesting. There he argues that The early third fathers believed that man is initially justified through faith and by grace.
00:19:13
Speaker
But then the Christian life after that, it's it's like a synergistic process and we have our contribution to make there. and and And that is against at least some forms of the old perspective too, because at least like the Lutheran perspective, which is very monergistic because it emphasizes that salvation is completely dependent on God and there is there is no synergistic process.
00:19:39
Speaker
But it's all in God's hands. There in the encyclopedia article, it seems like Thomas is holding that when it comes to the question of how we appropriate righteousness, it's just faith.
00:19:58
Speaker
But maybe the justification is more of like an ongoing process rather than a moment or, or like maybe is he kind of suggesting that the justification is this like longer process, which is initiated by sola fide by pure, by faith alone, but works enter in to the later stages of this longer process of justification. Is that kind of the theory then?
00:20:27
Speaker
I haven't read read the articles in a year, so i should read it again. But but but if I remember correctly, I think he he argues that there's initial justification baptism. So God gives his grace in baptism freely without any of our works.
00:20:42
Speaker
and truth And of course, we confess our faith when we are baptized. And so so that happens by faith. But then there is this process of the justification. We we grow we can grow in the...
00:20:56
Speaker
and justice or i don't I don't remember exactly how he puts it, but basically it's both like a momentaneous thing in baptism, but then there's process following it. And there is not strict separation between a justification and sanctification and justification and renewal like there is in the Protestant understanding of justification.
00:21:17
Speaker
Okay, great. Yeah, because right in the Protestant understanding, the justification is sort of a decisive once and for all instantaneous moment.
00:21:28
Speaker
Whereas maybe sanctification would be, a ah like once you're planted in God, God's garden, that growing into the fruits of righteous, righteous works like that's like a more ongoing process. And, yeah, I think that's the most common way of putting it.
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Okay, cool. All right. Awesome. So, so much for preliminaries let's now kind of get closer to, yeah, you're really your article. Um, which is you're focusing on Maximus the Confessor and, you know, who obviously lived centuries after Paul. So, yeah. So what, made what can you could just tell us what motivated you to look at Maximus the Confessor? You know, why is looking at his doctrine of justification ah worthwhile?
00:22:13
Speaker
and but but Well, first there is this personal interest of mine, which is due to my background in Lutheranism and also, well, I also already told that I encountered this book from Maximus and was intrigued by it.
00:22:29
Speaker
so So I was thinking, okay, no one has ever studied, at least to my knowledge, which has ever studied Maximus' Doctrine of Justification. i'm um
Maximus the Confessor: Law and Spirituality
00:22:38
Speaker
And I have studied the issue of justification quite a lot, so why wouldn't that there there would be a nice thing to do to combine this my knowledge of this doctrine with Maximus and see what I found out.
00:22:53
Speaker
And of course, I thought also that Maximus is perhaps the greatest Byzantine theologian. I think he's a representative of the Eastern tradition at his best. so I don't know how it's elsewhere, elsewhere but it, well, I think it's quite common phenomenon in twentieth century Orthodoxy to ah paint this simplistic picture that we had the rationalistic West and then we have the mystical East and the West is juridical in soteriology and the East is therapeutic.
00:23:24
Speaker
And then at least in Finland, I have sos maybe some people who are, or maybe some priests who say that the Orthodox church has no doctrine of justification. And I think this is quite problematic because it seems like Paul cared about the question of justification. so I was interested to find out that if we take a great representative of the Eastern tradition and and see what he thinks about this doctrine.
00:23:57
Speaker
and ah But well, then I also think that as I studied Maximus, I thought that, hey, this is an interesting figure to study because it seems like ah It's too much to say that he's a bridge figure between these two camps, like the new perspective and the old perspective, but but he has some commonalities with the old perspective that the earlier patristic writers do not have, at least according to my reading.
00:24:25
Speaker
And I think that makes him ecumenically, maybe an ecumenically promising figure because For example, Maximus, well, we probably go to this later on, but it seems like here there is at least the possibility that in Maximus' thought, all the works are excluded from justification in certain sense.
00:24:48
Speaker
So it's not about only the bonding boundary markers. And in this respect, he is closer to those perspective if Thomas' interpretation of the earlier sources is accurate one.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah. Just to to echo that point, like you're going to argue that, you know, so if we think of the new perspective as having a fairly narrow understanding of what works of the law refers to narrow in the sense of it's just referring to these boundary marker stuff like circumcision, dietary laws, et cetera.
00:25:23
Speaker
Maximus is actually closer to the old perspective than that insofar as his um, the way he understands works the law is not just going to include the ethnic boundary markers. In other words, when Maximus is thinking about, um, what is excluded from being the ground of justification, he's going to say, it's not simply the boundary marker, uh, works of law. There's something more broad going on. It has to do with, um,
00:25:58
Speaker
I guess our inner disposition in in the way that we ah execute, you know, the, the moral life potentially. I mean, I mean, obviously I'll let you ah describe what, what do he wants to exclude, but yeah, do you, do you want to maybe just preview for the listeners just really quick? I mean, obviously we're going to dive into it further, but like, can you kind of give the really first quick gloss on what Maximus understands by works of the law?
00:26:29
Speaker
Yeah, well, maybe I could say first that regarding the new perspective on Paul, that it is true that often the works of the law are identified with the boundary marking precepts, but then are there are some theologians of the new perspective who would say that it's not just the boundary markers, but the whole Torah, the mosaic law.
00:26:48
Speaker
But of course, the boundary markers stand at the heart of the controversy because the those certain precepts, they were at the part of the Jewish identity and that's why they are central to controversy but when it comes to Maximus Maximus perspective I think it's ah shaped by his ascetical theology and and and there the point is that that all the works are just means of growing spiritually of purifying the soul and of of increasing the knowledge of God
00:27:27
Speaker
so and basically if if one treats works as something more like that we're devoted to doing works as works that there is this no intention of or no no motivation of them serving as means of growing knowledge of god then they are like this they can be a they can hinder spiritual growth and be obstacles of of of so of grace in a christian And of course, well, we can say that, ah I'm not sure if I say too much at this point, but but of course, um like circumcision could be a prime example of a work of the law ah that that is a hindrance to faith if it's not seen spiritually or is it if it's not understood as this divine ordinance which is meant for
00:28:25
Speaker
growth in faith. and not ah not of um some sort of ah observance that needs to be followed for its own sake.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah, based on reading your article, my impression was like for Maximus, it there is going to be an element of observance, which is part of your justification.
00:28:48
Speaker
However, if that observance has the wrong motivation, Like you said, if it's not for the sake of growing in knowledge of God, growing closer to God, I suppose.
00:28:59
Speaker
but But then maybe he also includes fear of God. At any rate, if it doesn't have the right motivation, ah your observance, then that is not going to contribute to your justification with God.
00:29:16
Speaker
But yeah, let's let's maybe yeah dive in a little bit more into the details of of your analysis of Maximus. So... Maybe we just we'll just step back really quick and mention, you know recall the but three questions that Matthew J. Thomas offers. So basically, Matthew J. Thomas and his work he kind of comes up with three questions that are kind of key to any theory of justification. The first question is the kind of what you could call the reference question, which is to what ah do works, to what works does the the phrase works of the law and Paul refer to?
00:29:54
Speaker
What is Paul referring to when he talks about works of the law? But then there's also like a kind of a purpose question, which is what is the purpose of the works of the law? What was their, why did,
00:30:10
Speaker
God institute the law? What's the purpose of performing them? All that. And then there's kind of this like Christian question, which is why are these works, whatever they are, no longer necessary for Christians?
00:30:20
Speaker
And so those are kind of the three basic questions. And in your article, it's it's it's really awesome. Like you kind of pose each of these three questions to Maximus and you see how he answers them.
00:30:34
Speaker
And so kind of to approach the reference question, which is, you know to what works do the works of law refer? Can you tell us to to approach that? Can you just first tell us about the three kinds of law in Maximus?
00:30:46
Speaker
And then just, yeah, why is it helpful for understanding his doctrine of justification? Yeah. so So as you said, I treat these three kinds of law my my and for the simple reason that I thought that if I want to find out what the works of the law are,
00:31:05
Speaker
I first need to understand what Maximus means by the law. And in Maximus' works, there is often this distinction between entry these three kinds of law, which are natural law, the written law, and the law of grace, which Maximus equates with the spiritual law.
00:31:23
Speaker
um Well, the natural law refers to divine intentionality um embedded in creation. And it is grounded in Maximus' doctrine of the Logoi,
00:31:36
Speaker
ro you which are divine principles according to which all created realities have been made. and So the Logoi, the distinguished created beings from one other another and defined their ah proper ends.
00:31:51
Speaker
For example, um because human beings are rational ah beings, conformity to our natural logos you involves living according to reason.
00:32:05
Speaker
And now for those who have spiritual insight, for those who have the eyes to see, to look the creation properly, they can basically read the divine will in creation by looking at the created beings and see what's what's natural to them.
00:32:18
Speaker
So this is the natural law. Then the written law expresses exactly the same ah divine will as natural law, but in a more accessible manner, in a codified form.
00:32:32
Speaker
um So it makes the divine will clear clearer and more explicit. and And then in addition, it adds to these divine commandments threats of punishments or penalties which urge those who are under it to go to fulfill the precepts of the law.
00:32:51
Speaker
And then the law of grace, which Maximus equates with the spiritual law, it is most fully revealed in the incarnate Christ, who is like the law become incarnate. um And whereas Maximus' treatment of the natural law and the original law tend to emphasize outward obedience to them, and the law of grace ah focuses on inward fulfillment.
00:33:20
Speaker
So it's not thought only about outward actions, but also these inner acts of the soul, transformation of the heart and proper inner motivation to follow about God.
00:33:33
Speaker
And although then Maximus distinguishes these three laws, he sees them profoundly intertwined. And it can be a bit misleading that Maximus speaks about natural and law of grace, because in the Western tradition, there is this tendency to juxtapose nature and grace.
00:33:51
Speaker
But in Maximus, the two are often, well, they are distinguishable, but still inseparable. um And I believe this is because It is the incarnate Christ who is is the both the beginning and end of creation. So when man was created,
00:34:15
Speaker
Christ was like the example or the blueprint or the the archetype of of Adam. so and and our our
00:34:26
Speaker
Human beings are called to conform their lives to the incarnate Christ. who is the fulfillment of human nature. And also that fulfillment is beyond our and ah our capacities because humanity has been deified in Christ.
00:34:46
Speaker
And in this way, I think the natural and the greats are always together in Maximus because, well, Christ is the the most fully human being there is, but he's also a deified ah yeah is hum humanity has been deified and we are caught to that deified humanity.
00:35:09
Speaker
So that's why there is no like this strict nature of grace juxtaposition of Maximus.
00:35:18
Speaker
But if we think about the relevance of this whole discussion ah for Maximus' understanding of justification, I think it's first of all that the law is good. It's about Christ. So the law is not the enemy or this. And there's a Maximus in Protestant theology, law is often the the primary function of the law is to accuse human beings of their sins so that they would understand their need for forgiveness of sins.
00:35:42
Speaker
But in Maximus, the perspective is totally different that's that it's it's this law is about lawest grace in itself and we are called to conform ourselves to law and we become truly human ah when when when we conform what is natural to us and that is the task of the Christian life.
00:36:07
Speaker
So there there is this when all perspective juxtaposes human effort and divine grace, this is completely foreign to Maximus, these two go together beautifully.
00:36:21
Speaker
Fascinating. Yeah. so yeah, just to echo that, like, you know, one theory of the relation between law and grace is that, yeah, they're they're standing in this like contrast where the law demands you to do something. And if you fulfill it, you live.
00:36:39
Speaker
If you fail to fulfill it, you die as in Ezekiel 18. Whereas grace is freeing you I guess, from having to observe the law in order to live.
00:36:55
Speaker
Instead, you can achieve life. You can live by just, uh, trust it, trusting in God as in Romans six. So that's where you kind of set up that way. That would be like a kind of like strong contrast between the two, but you're saying, um, there's a way in which for Maximus Christ, um,
00:37:19
Speaker
represents a kind of way of synthesizing those two sides and so that they're not in opposition. Yes, I think that's that's correct.
00:37:32
Speaker
and And in Maximus studies, there's been this great discussion about the relationship between nature and grace in Maximus, because there's also this
00:37:45
Speaker
Well, it's not popular anymore. i don't I don't think so, but it used to be popular, this kind of Thomistic interpretation of Maximus, where there is this sharp distinction between nature and grace.
00:37:58
Speaker
But in the most recent Maximus studies, I think there is emphasis that one could say that man's, the natural end of human beings is supernatural, which probably makes no sense in this kind of a Thomistic or irish yeah more strictly Aristotelian framework.
00:38:16
Speaker
but But I think the incarnate Christ is the the key to Maximus' salvation in this issue. Interesting. Okay. I don't know if we want to go too much into this, but like you know one one thing that puzzled me is to say that... So like you said, Maximus, we have these three kinds of law. We have the law of nature, the written law, the law of grace.
00:38:42
Speaker
And I think you were saying that like the law of nature and the written law were in some sense the same. And, you know, that to me was just kind of puzzling because it's like, okay,
00:38:57
Speaker
there are different categories of law in the Old Testament and the Torah. You know, so it's like you have the moral law.
Virtues and Divine Motivation
00:39:05
Speaker
And I feel like the moral law, when you think about, let's say, the Decalogue, the Ten Commandments,
00:39:12
Speaker
I could see that being understood in terms of laws of nature. In other words, I can understand thinking that, you know, you know you shall not commit adultery is somehow in correspondence with um the natural Logoi that ah Maximus talks about.
00:39:35
Speaker
But other parts of the the written law are, you know, like, I don't know like the the ceremonial laws, of course. So that's going to have to do with like the sacrificial system, um you know, like having, you know, and doing burnt offerings, whole animal offerings or like the grain offerings.
00:39:57
Speaker
It also, you know, has to do with like the food laws, you know, ah the detailed list of clean versus unclean animals. any rate, you know, all these ceremonial laws, I was having trouble thinking of those as,
00:40:11
Speaker
being connected to the natural law. Like I would have normally thought, okay, yeah, some part, some parts of the old Testament written law for sure seem to plausibly match the natural law specifically like, um, the Decalogue, but there seems to be other parts of the, the old Testament law, such as the ceremonial laws, as well as the civil laws related to like, anyway.
00:40:36
Speaker
Um, so i don't know. Do you kind of see what I'm getting? I don't know Do you have any comments on that whole question? Yeah. This is one issue that I should have clarified more in the article. I think, ah well, Maximus explicitly says, I think, that the substance of the two laws is the same.
00:40:55
Speaker
So fine. It's there. but But how I see it is that if you understand the written law, ah which Maximus equates the Mosaic law, I think at the least usually, if you understand that law according to the letter,
00:41:09
Speaker
like according yeah that you just take them as this outward ordinances or what you have like actually you must do. Then, of course, the Mosaic law contains commandments which are not found in the natural law.
00:41:23
Speaker
But I think how Maximus can can still claim that the content of the law is the same is the same is that he looks at the Mosaic law with this spiritually, that there's not only this literal understanding of the commandments, but also spiritual understanding.
00:41:42
Speaker
And when Maximus reads this, old Old Testament writings, he so sees these kind of, um often there's ascetical teachings in these various organizationed ah ordinances of the Mosaic law.
00:42:00
Speaker
So for example, circumcision, i i wonder if I have the quote somewhere, but but he claims that circumcision, spiritually understood, refers to the that you must put but so cut away the impassionate, ah the passions of your soul, which are against nature.
00:42:24
Speaker
And that is taught by nature as well. So human is a rational animal, so we must, and the divine will is that will subject these lower passions to ah to the rule of reason. So then the commandment to circumcise expresses the same truth in this ritual, ritualistic form.
00:42:42
Speaker
So I think that's the key. Yeah. Yeah. Just to bring up the quote you mentioning. So from, yeah, this is from your article. Um, so this is from ad the Lassam. Is that how you say it? think Right. Okay.
00:42:55
Speaker
okay So from the localized quote, from the localized position of the circumcised part, we are taught to undertake voluntarily the circumcision of the impassioned disposition of the soul.
00:43:10
Speaker
Um, um, and So yeah, he starts talking about mystical circumcision is the complete removal of the intellect's impassioned relation to the motive generation that was subsequently added to it. So, um okay. So the idea is that it's like at the level of like, once you're thinking, when once when you contemplate ah even the ceremonial law,
00:43:41
Speaker
and you have like a more mystical insight into the ceremonial law, such as the purity law, such as, uh, don't know, maybe even the festival calendar, maybe the te temple temple rights and all that. If you contemplate those properly, you'll see how they have a virtue forming teaching function.
00:44:06
Speaker
And when you see that their function, their purpose is virtue forming, and virtue is an element of like the natural law, then you see how they are like substantially at the level of substance. i don't know, at the the deepest level, they're actually one. Is that, is that maybe correct gloss of? Yeah. Yeah. Put it well there. Yeah. Okay. Great. Um, uh, yeah, I mean, that's really cool. I mean, I think, you know, probably there are people who would,
00:44:42
Speaker
um pushed back against the idea that um he has this really cool husband theory where it's like each the different laws that you have in the Old Testament, like the law in paradise, the law given after the fall, the laws given at the time of Noah,
00:45:06
Speaker
the Abrahamic circumcision and so forth. He has this really cool theory that each of these is like a husband to human nature, which was there to like help us become more virtuous.
00:45:19
Speaker
And um obviously, you know, there's going to be people who want to push back against thinking of these as like all for the sake of virtue. I imagine. Yeah. Some people might want to interpret them as more like, oh, some of these are really more like boundary marking type of things, ways of conveying that you're part of God's covenantal people.
00:45:41
Speaker
But, um you know, we don't necessarily have to um dive into all that right now. just I'm just marking that for the listener. There's going to be people who don't necessarily agree right with like interpreting things.
00:45:57
Speaker
uh, these various written laws as always for the sake of virtue. Would that be correct? Like that, that's not going to be universally. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. about Yeah.
00:46:07
Speaker
Yeah. but As is everything, right? No, what is the university? So anyway, yeah, not, not, not, that's not a point against Maximus. Just, just wanted to flag that for the listener. Anyway. Um, but maybe, um, let's talk about faith a little bit. I feel like that would be cool to just touch on just like really quickly.
00:46:25
Speaker
um It seems like for Maximus, obedience is going to be part of the substance, the ground of salvation. um It seems like faith must be fulfilled by the practice of God's commandments. And so that's going to contrast with the old perspective, right? Like, and just to be clear.
00:46:46
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. Faith is wrong though.
00:46:51
Speaker
Yeah, there is no juxtaposition between faith and works. Those two go together. um Of course, I wonder if this is a good place to mention this, but when Maximus speaks about the correct motivations of good works, he thinks there are three proper motivations to do good.
00:47:12
Speaker
First is the fear of God. Second is the hope for it hope of reward. And third is the love of god And I'm just been thinking that all these relate to Christ in some sense, of if you fear a God, you fear there's the judgment of Christ.
00:47:26
Speaker
Christ will be the judge. And also the same as in case of the reward. So all these motivations presuppose faith.
00:47:36
Speaker
In some sense that you believe that that the judgment will come. Right. and Right. Right. Yeah. You can't punish you. Yeah. And then you act according to your faith.
00:47:48
Speaker
yeah so um right like Yeah, so we have three... so is that part of the spiritual law? So it's like the spiritual law sets up maybe that you do need to observe. So for Maximus, to be in a state of grace, I guess you could say, to be... um i don't know if this is the same as being declared righteous, but like to be deemed righteous by God,
00:48:17
Speaker
ah There is an element of obedience, but there's also this other element of the correct inner disposition, which is what you're talking about right there. And like you said, there are kind of three spiritual motives that are considered correct, the correct inner disposition. One, fear of divine punishment.
00:48:38
Speaker
Two, hope of eternal reward. Three, love of God. And what you're pointing out there is that in each of those correct motives, in each of those correct inner dispositions, there is an element of faith, of of a belief in Christ.
00:48:51
Speaker
um You know, because even with fear of divine punishment, you know, you have, I i suppose you, I mean, obviously,
00:49:02
Speaker
obviously, you know, A Jewish person can also have fear of divine punishment without
00:49:10
Speaker
believing in Christ. But um from the Christian standpoint, divine punishment is executed by Christ. so So when you fear divine punishment, you are fearing something connected to Christ. Anyway, is that is that kind of, am I echoing correctly? Yep.
00:49:31
Speaker
Great. Um,
00:49:34
Speaker
So i don't know i'm just trying to, I'm just trying to think like, cause this is obviously going against the old perspective and I'm just trying to think what kind of objections they would raise. Cause, um, it's just fun to think about objections. And so do you feel like the main worry someone of the old perspective would have with this type of theory is that like, um, you know, if, um,
00:50:02
Speaker
would ah I'm just trying to imagine. I feel like maybe the old perspective, they would be like, oh, how could you ever really know that you've purified your intellect? How can you ever really know that your motivations are right?
00:50:14
Speaker
And if you can't really know that you have the proper spiritual motivation, um you're always going to be uncertain of your status before God you're, you know, um, anyway, I guess, yeah. So it goes back to assurance. Like they might be, you think that the old perspective would, would hear about Maximus and they would say, okay, um, this is going undermine that sense of assurance.
00:50:49
Speaker
I think the, the great problem would be,
00:50:54
Speaker
At least Chemnitz has this presupposition that God demands perfect righteousness from us and our deeds must be perfect in order to please him.
00:51:08
Speaker
So
00:51:11
Speaker
if if if my motivations are somehow lacking or impure, then they are not pleasing to God unless...
00:51:22
Speaker
well, this ah image, i I'm not sure if this this is a good image, but like if they are filtered through Christ, because there's there's this this idea that Christ has this perfect righteousness.
00:51:34
Speaker
And when you have faith in Christ, God sees you through true Christ. And then all the imperfections of your deeds are covered by his person perfectness or righteousness or purity.
00:51:47
Speaker
So I think Maximus thinks that, okay, the highest motivation for good works is this love of God. But God accepts also those works that are not like perfectly motivated or are lacking, like fear of punishment.
00:52:05
Speaker
That's not the highest form of obedience in any way. So I think the difference is there. that But to make this more problematic, I think then This will be a history lesson, I think, because then if we take Martin Luther from the fifteen twenty early 1520s, he was very optimistic that if one has true faith, one will naturally do good works.
00:52:29
Speaker
So there is no no need to preach law or pose this threats of punishment. But then in 1530, Lutherans go through this antinomian controversy when there are theologians who claim that no law should be preached to the Christians.
00:52:46
Speaker
And then the Lutherans thought that, okay, this is this is not correct, that the law must be preached to Christians as well. And then then this controversy is reflected in Chemnitz, for example, when he says that he says that we must that there is desire this idea that you must do good.
00:53:08
Speaker
If you don't, your faith is not living a true faith. So I wonder if that comes quite close to this kind of ah fear, i like obedience motivated by fear, which is present in Maximus.
00:53:23
Speaker
That if you won't do a good just out of love ah for God as ah as a response to divine grace, then you must hear this trust of punishment, which will motivate you to outward obedience at least.
00:53:39
Speaker
So I think there is kind of a, when we speak about justification, then it's this kind of perspective I said earlier that you need this perfection. And that is taken care by Christ.
00:53:50
Speaker
When we move to justification, to renewal, then this perspective of Maximus is perhaps more like, ah is closer to Maximus because then these impure motives are allowed.
00:54:05
Speaker
Interesting. Yeah. so so the So the impure motive of fear of divine punishment, what what what could seem to be an impure moment of fear divine punishment, that's actually considered among the proper spiritual motives in Maximus.
00:54:22
Speaker
Right? That's what you're saying, right? Like that's part of... um and Yeah, so actually what would be...
00:54:30
Speaker
What would be... an impure motive? Is it... is it is It's kind of like social social concern with being improved by other people. Is that right?
00:54:44
Speaker
I think in Lutheran tradition, it's often just that it's self-serving motive in some sense, that it's not motivated by pure love of God or pure altruism, but there's like, you don't do something good in order receive something yourself.
00:55:01
Speaker
Okay, so so in Lutherism, and right, they they would consider yeah some of these proper motives in Maximus to actually be impure. But in Maximus, to achieve a proper spiritual motive is actually kind of easier than in Lutheranism because he would include fear of divine punishment as a proper spiritual motive.
00:55:21
Speaker
Yeah, the approach is more like the Lutheran. Yeah, it's got graded or there's three levels in Maximus. But in Lutheranism, there's a tendency to just portray this picture that is either or.
00:55:34
Speaker
Either your works are but like completely perfect or they are not. And if they are not, then God judges you by his law, which demands perfection in the context of the justification.
00:55:46
Speaker
then we move to the sanctification or renewal, then it's a different story or then these imperfections are. Then impure obedience is pleasing to God, but it's covered in righteousness of a Christ.
00:56:00
Speaker
And then it's like theoretically or in God's eyes, it's perfect. Although
00:56:06
Speaker
and i don't know i shouldn't say in reality, but but if we if we but look at the motives of the Christian, then it's not like ideal.
00:56:17
Speaker
Right. and And so just to be clear for Maximus, then the impure motives, the motives that, you know, would be, um, if you observe, if you're, if you're observant in virtue of what you say are like hedonistic drives, actions aimed at pleasing people, um, I think in the paper,
00:56:45
Speaker
if If that's why you're observant, that will not count toward your justification. is that Those would be the the key impure spiritual motives for Maximus.
00:57:01
Speaker
Maximus doesn't on use the term impure motivations, I don't think. That's not the typical way of him for him to frame the issue. I think that's the okay way. Oh, okay. but okay i understand. Okay, thank you.
00:57:14
Speaker
So, but in Maximus, I think there is this idea that there are levels of, that these are like three levels of motivation. The highest level is this love of God.
00:57:26
Speaker
And the the other two motives are somehow, somewhat self-serving, that you use something you do something so that you avoid punishment or get a reward. um and And then there's the the the other side, of course, that there is also works that do not please God. And in Maximus' thoughts, these works are those that are motivated often by hedonistic or sensual pleasures.
00:57:53
Speaker
So we do outwardly good stuff to have some pleasures to ourselves. And for him, this is the tendency of the fallen man. so we want to to follow rules in order to get something earthly and sensual as a reward so so obedience to God is not motivated by getting to know him better or the growing virtues and godliness but it's about this life and pleasures of this life
00:58:23
Speaker
okay and and so that's this ascetical theology coming out really clearly so you are not you know, following the law of grace, we, we, we distinguished those three laws before, and one of, you know, is the law of grace. And so you're kind of outside the law of grace. If you are observant in virtue of a more hedonistic, sensual orientation.
00:58:49
Speaker
Um, okay. Yeah. So great. Okay. So, I mean, um
00:58:56
Speaker
I guess maybe just to, you know, I'm trying to be a mindful of time here too. Like if we just had to kind of summarize then
00:59:07
Speaker
Maximus's answer to the reference question, to what works do the works of law and Paul refer, you know, what works of law are being excluded from your justification? If you just kind of had to summarize it quickly, like how would you, how would you do that?
00:59:26
Speaker
Well, I think
00:59:29
Speaker
there's this kind of maybe broader definition and a stricter definition. So I think broadly speaking, any work can be a work of the law if if it is motivated, if it's mere ah external but observance of a commandment of God without this proper motivation.
00:59:48
Speaker
And practically speaking, it so I think in Maximus, there's always some sort of a the wrong motivation has something to do with the sensual pleasure, love of carnal pleasures.
01:00:05
Speaker
So I think the broadest definition would be that any work can be a work of the law if it's not properly and motivated. But Maximus works do con contain some passages in which i it clearly states that the ritual laws have been abrogated, so they do not apply to Christians. So this is, of course, the like the new perspective kind of a view.
01:00:29
Speaker
But I think he has this
01:00:32
Speaker
And the first one is closer to the old perspective. So I think you can have these two two views there. But I think it would be characteristic of Maximus to understand this abrogation of the ceremonial laws or so ceremonial laws as just a group of laws like any other law. But the the key question is how is the obedience of the one who tries to be obedient to the law.
01:01:01
Speaker
ah how How is the one who tries to be obedient, how is he motivated? Great. And so that's, and and like you say in your paper, that insofar as any any work, any active observance of God's law can be included there for Maximus.
01:01:25
Speaker
In a way that that that shows that he has... He's a little bit closer to the old perspective than, say, the authors Matthew ah Thomas reviews in his book. That's like one way in which he's maybe a bit closer. Not to say he's... You're not necessarily saying he's closer overall to the old perspective. It's just that he's a bit closer to the old perspective in certain ways than the second century authors that Thomas reviews.
01:01:59
Speaker
right um Great. So ah what about,
01:02:06
Speaker
um I think we've kind of touched on the purpose question. What is the purpose of the works of law? We've kind of touched on that ah for Maximus that would really pertain to virtue building, right? Is that, it would be, have to do with this ascetical theology, is that right?
01:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. So ah for Maximus works are means of acquiring virtues uh and uh so maximus approach works in general is very positive and he believes that if i have understood correctly i think like virtues and maximus are a combination of human habitual habitual practices and divine grace and true virtues we participate in divine attributes and this is the inner righteousness or this kind of a, well, I would say inner righteousness, inner participation in Christ.
01:02:58
Speaker
Christ becomes embodied in us when we participate in his true virtues. um But of course, when we come to the question of the works of the law, it of then focuses on the Judaizers or those guys who against whom Paul writes.
01:03:19
Speaker
And in this context, works of the law are a negative thing. um Because these Judaizers sought to impose these works of the law to the Gentile believers.
01:03:32
Speaker
ah Maximus tends to present Jews in a very critical light. And he sees them as a prime example of fallen humanity, a group of people whose life is solely dedicated to a pursuit of sensual pleasures.
01:03:48
Speaker
um And I think this this view shapes his interpretation of of the Jewish relationship to the Mosaic law. So he he he argues that the Jews understood the Mosaic law's as punishments to refer only to temporal punishments and rewards only to sensual rewards.
01:04:09
Speaker
And as a result, their obedience to the law was driven by the hope of earthly sensual pleasures. And then there's there is this one interesting passage where Maximus argues that some Jews claim that descendant descendants from Jacob is a prerequisite for knowing God.
01:04:29
Speaker
And if we like to take this idea and apply it to Judaizers, then they could be conceived as a group of of Jewish Christians who believe that one must be circumcised in order to be a child of Jacob and an heir of these various temporal promises that God promise to Israel in exchange for obedience to the to the Torah.
01:04:54
Speaker
So I think that if if this interpretation is accurate, then I think this takes Maximus very close to the new perspective on Paul, because the works of the law relate to the ah Jewish people and and Jewish identity.
01:05:13
Speaker
But but what what then differentiates Maximus? like What is the fundamental difference from all this other perspective, whether it's the old, new, or or even the Thomas' early perspective, umpo is this emphasis on ascetical theology, which frames his treatment of the whole whole question.
01:05:34
Speaker
Yeah, just real quick, I i found the the you you know this so you know there's this This contrast of like two ages, of the you know the age associated with i guess the Old Testament of law having a sort of corporeal reign where obedience is kind of measured by this sensible corporeal compliance and then this new age that Christ revealed, this age of spiritual fulfillment.
01:06:06
Speaker
I found it a little bit like I was, I mean, I think there's something to it. I just thought, on the other hand, there are people like Jeremiah and Ezekiel who are worried about the heart. They're not just totally immersed in this mere corporeal observance. And obviously there's some songs that connect to that too. Anyway, so I was, I thought it was a little bit puzzling the way he was characterizing
01:06:38
Speaker
um the jews but i don't know do you have any well i would think that he he doesn't conceive jeremiah and his prophets as jews in this negative sense in which he talks about the jews i think he would understand them as those who follow the law like out of fear of god or or in hope of reward so because there is this in maximus you have the story of this maturation of the people of israel so so And that's the reason why the written law focuses on this outward punishment is punishments isn't that God is a divine pedagogue who is like making sure that the children of Israel are growing well and mature so that they receive the grace which comes comes in Christ.
01:07:30
Speaker
So I think the prophets would probably but just be like preachers who preach according to the spiritual state of the people of Israel, at least like that if we think that there are there is the multitude of the Jews who are probably not that well motivated, but then you have the remnant or something like that, like these good guys who are more spiritually inclined, maybe the prophets directed their message to those.
01:07:55
Speaker
yeah Of course, this is
Maximus's Alignment with New Perspective
01:07:56
Speaker
speculation because Maximus doesn't treat this issue in detail, but but I think this would be in harmony with his thoughts.
01:08:07
Speaker
Okay, great. So unfortunately due to time, I think we won't be able to delve too much into the the third question, which is really um you know the question of like, why is it that the the works of law are not necessary for Christians?
01:08:21
Speaker
We won't be able to get into that, but I do recommend you know listeners to check out your article because it's really fascinating how you engage with that issue. But yeah, just to just to to conclude, um what do you think maybe, do you just want to maybe just say a couple sentences about, yeah, like this whole issue of like Maximus's alignment with the old perspective versus the new, just just some like basic takeaways for the listener when they think about Maximus vis-a-vis those two perspectives.
01:08:55
Speaker
Okay.
01:08:58
Speaker
I think on the questions of the works of the law, ah Maximus comes closer to the old perspective on Paul in that he argues that ah works of the law can refer to any work whatsoever if it's not properly motivated.
01:09:15
Speaker
I think then at the same time, he agrees with the new perspective and the early perspective that Christians are not obliged to follow the Mosaic law. and that the Judaizers probably insisted on on this point. um Then regarding the purpose of the law, Maximus reflects the emphasis of the new perspective under perspective and in affirming that one does not have to become a Jew in order to belong to the covenant community, but his perspective is is shaped above all by his ascetical theology.
01:09:49
Speaker
And this is um of course absent from the other frameworks um Then, yeah, we didn't go to the third question, but I think there he, on the question of why we are not obliged to follow the works of the law, I think he comes very close to the perspective and the early perspective.
01:10:10
Speaker
There's no indication that he was worried about any works righteousness or that the Apostle Paul like ruled out a wrote out works from justification because he was worried that the Christians tried to merit eternal life by their good deeds.
01:10:26
Speaker
So this is a completely foreign idea to Maximus. and And I think solely because of this reason, if I has have to say that which camps Maximus belongs to, I think he belongs to the new perspective and early perspective camp because that presupposition is so fundamental.
01:10:45
Speaker
The preposupposition that Paul deals with works righteousness is so fundamental to the perspective that if Maximus does not share that one, then he doesn't belong to that camp, at least.