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Moses the Hierarch: Theurgy and Sacred Imitation in Dionysius with Dr. Clelia Attanasio
41 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, we speak with Dr. Clelia Attanasio about her recent work on Pseudo-Dionysius and the distinction between theurgy and hierurgy. We explore how Moses, as the paradigmatic hierurgist, models the human ascent through contemplation and the use of sacred symbols in response to divine action.
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Transcript
Introduction & Topic Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Dionysus Circle podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Sam Bennett. Today's episode continues our series on Christian Theurgy. Our guest is Dr. Kalelia Atanasio, a von Humboldt fellow at the University of Bonn and a graduate of the University of Cambridge.
00:00:15
Speaker
We'll be discussing her recent article, Dionysius' application of the role of theurgist to the figure of Moses. I want to highlight two key ideas we explore in the conversation. First, is that Dionysus draws a sharp distinction between theurgy, which is God's own action, his descent,
00:00:34
Speaker
into the world to draw us into union, and hiergy, which is human sacred and sacramental activity aimed at imitating that divine initiative.
00:00:46
Speaker
Clelia emphasizes that our sacred acts, our hiergy, would not even be possible without God's own gracious and philanthropic action of reaching out toward us first.
00:01:00
Speaker
ah The second idea in this conversation I want to highlight is that while Christ is the true theurgist, Moses serves as a paradigmatic heurgist with an H in Dionysus' thought.
00:01:12
Speaker
So Moses ascends Mount Sinai. He's purified through kant contemplative union with God. And then he you know receives the divine law and he returns bearing sacred symbols, material forms that mediate divine presence and order our human worship.
00:01:32
Speaker
So having been illuminated through direct contact with God, Moses becomes the first hierarch among men.
Atanasio's Academic Journey
00:01:40
Speaker
Now, he does not create theurgy himself, only God can do that, but he becomes the one who most fully receives the divine and then reenacts it in symbolic liturgical form.
00:01:54
Speaker
So in this way, he kind of embodies what Dionysius understands heurgy to be. the sacred imitation of God's own theurgical acts through rightly ordered worship and contemplation.
00:02:08
Speaker
God bless, and I hope you enjoy the episode.
00:02:15
Speaker
So thanks so much for joining us, Kalelia. Thank you. Thank you so much, Tim, for having me and for inviting me. Absolutely. Yeah. So maybe we could just start off. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe where you grew up and how you came to study pseudo Dionysius? You know, what first drew you to his writings?
00:02:34
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Thanks. So I came from, I come from Italy, Southern Italy. I am from a very small town close to Naples, actually in between Naples and the Amalfitum coast, to be more precise.
00:02:47
Speaker
um And I started studying Salerno. I got my PhD, my bachelor and master in Salerno. And then I started studying pseudogenesis for my PhD in Cambridge. Actually, my master thesis was focused on pseudogenesis and Richard of St. Victor as well.
00:03:07
Speaker
So my My passion on pseudo-Dionysius started during my master's degree. Actually, I wanted to study medieval philosophy initially, but then I wanted, mean, I met pseudo-Dionysius and I found him really fascinating, especially for the mystery underneath his pseudonym and et cetera. So I wanted to combine the two things a little bit and I decided to ah study something comparative.
00:03:38
Speaker
Also because, I mean, I don't know if you know anything about Richard of St. Victor, but he is kind of a rock star in mysticism, medieval mysticism. At least it was... what I thought of ah Richard. So I decided to combine the two things also because Richard draws a lot from pseudodoniesis. So that's how I started.
00:03:57
Speaker
But I think that eventually, i became more focused, I mean, I focused more on pseudodoniesis at the end, ah and on religious
Mystical Aspects in Dionysius & Richard of St. Victor
00:04:10
Speaker
studies in general. Yeah. Okay, interesting.
00:04:12
Speaker
And so the mystical dimension, it sounds like of of both of those figures, Dionysius and Victor. that though That was kind of intriguing to you that... Yes, exactly. Yeah. the The mystical element was ah very prominent in both authors and this was the thing that ah i mean I was most fascinated on, ah especially for the concept of deification and the union with God, because both Saudenius and Richard elaborated a lot on that. And I mean, especially Richard of St. Victor elaborates the idea of mystical union as something that it's
00:04:50
Speaker
He calls it excessus mentis, which is something that is a moment of ecstasy that keeps you outside of yourself, which is more or less the same thing that happens with pseudo-dionysius.
00:05:01
Speaker
So I studied these two elements in comparison. Also the figure of Moses, for example, which is very prominent in both
The Role of Symbols & Hierarchy in Theology
00:05:10
Speaker
authors. So I studied these topics.
00:05:12
Speaker
Awesome. Fascinating. and And speaking of the identity, so you were also intrigued by... ah the identity of the the author, Cedro Dionysius. And I, you know, i just like to get you a couple comments on that. You know, how do you think about his identity? Obviously,
00:05:31
Speaker
You know, it's very enigmatic. It's a bit controversial. ah It seems that he was a late antique think thinker yeah influenced by Neoplatonism. But yeah, could you kind of just give us rough gloss on how you personally ah think about him? um Yeah. i Yeah.
00:05:48
Speaker
So the identity of pseudo Dionysus is, of course, very fascinating. i mean, it's a pseudo Dionysus. So we know it's not the actual Dionysus from the Europa Gaunt.
00:06:00
Speaker
And this is what it makes him so fascinating, of course. But I personally approach his ah fake identity with no intention to the to ah discover something actual ah from all historical data. I'm not interested in that.
00:06:19
Speaker
I know this will be a mystery and it will never be solved. And I don't think it's interesting from a speculate from a theoretical point of view, from my from my perspective. I think that Dionysius wanted to keep the pseudonym.
00:06:37
Speaker
He wanted to keep his identity a mystery. And I do think this ah these usage of the pseudonym, he's profoundly ah connected with the way he perceives reality and he perceives um the way he perceives hierarchy and theology, et cetera. I think that the pseudonym itself is part um of the process. That's interesting. Yeah.
00:07:03
Speaker
I don't know if it makes sense. Yeah. could do Would you mind just elaborating maybe just a little bit? I mean, obviously, I'm sure there's a lot unpacked there. But the yeah the idea that his adoption of a pseudonym is actually connected to his general philosophical theological worldview. Could you kind of just...
00:07:22
Speaker
I do think so. Basically, I think that, so, 790s is, ah if you read the Corpus Ereo Pageticum at the ah the last ah the last books, so mystical theology and divine names, so you come to realize that there is not just the positive usage of theology, so the symbols and rituals and at the positive way to arrive to God, but it is also a negative way to contemplate God, which which operates through negativity and omissions and eliminating things. right
00:07:57
Speaker
So I do think that using a
Theurgy vs. Hiergy: Iamblichus & Dionysius
00:08:00
Speaker
pseudonym is a way to eradicate the identity of the self and to ah put into scene them the negative way of theology. So while Pseudo-Dionysius decides to not present himself as he is, but using a mask, he is doing two things.
00:08:23
Speaker
The first one is to extend the a historical presence of Pseudo-Dionysius through himself. So he's doing a process of um extending the identity of a very important character, such as Dionysius from the Europagite.
00:08:41
Speaker
And on the other hand, he is eradicating the identity of the self in order to contemplate ah divign the divinity or the form of God in a negative way.
00:08:54
Speaker
I don't know if it makes sense. Yeah, it does. I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, one thing that makes me think of is just effacement, self-effacement. is seems to be generally speaking a sort of necessary feature of a mystical path yeah there there should be a dimension of self-effacement and um and it you know it makes me start
Theology of Division: Divine & Human Acts
00:09:20
Speaker
thinking a little bit about theurgy which we'll talk about in a moment but you know if you think about gregory shaw's interpretation of theurgy you know he talks about which guy yeah yeah the distinction between theurgy and magic and
00:09:32
Speaker
you know, one dimension of that is that genuine theurgy should be more self-effacing. Yes. At any rate, but but yeah, maybe we can kind of now ah kind of look into that ah issue. um You know, basically your article, like I mentioned, it's about, it's called Dionysius' Application of the Role of Theurgist to the Figure of Moses.
00:09:56
Speaker
And in this article, the concept of theurgy is super important. And so I'm thinking maybe we should just start there. Maybe you could just introduce us to the idea of theurgy, maybe especially how it's understood prior to Dionysius. So that means Iamblichus, and maybe we should talk a little about theurgy and Iamblichus.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yes, sure. so and The article
Christ's Central Role in Dionysius' Theology
00:10:20
Speaker
I wrote is ah as you said it's focused on the role of Moses and how Dionysius applies the role of the theurgist or the erurgist, as we will see, to to to the figure of Moses.
00:10:40
Speaker
But of course, in order to understand what theurgy is in Dionysius, it is important to understand what theurgy is for Iamblichus especially. I think that Iamblichus conceives theurgy as the goal of theurgy, he is to have an experience of the divine. so um Theurgy is a way, is a tool that you can use to reach an experience of the divine, form of union with the divine. And in order to do that, you can you have to use a plethora of different symbols that can be both tangible and intangible.
00:11:19
Speaker
at The thing that ah is is important to underline is that Iamblichus uses a lot of words to describe theurgia, such as theurgia, hierurgia, hieratic, and other words to talk about the kind of same thing to him, because it doesn't really distinguish it between the act of God and the act of ah the sacred act.
00:11:52
Speaker
The divine act and the sacred act Iamblichus does not really distinguish them theoretically, while on um the other hand, Dionysius does distinguish them theoretically. He distinguishes between the work of God, which is theurgia, literally, and the sacred act, which is hierurgia, literally.
00:12:15
Speaker
So there is a this there is a core difference between iamblicus and Dionysius, which is this theoretical theoretical difference between theurgia and hierurgia, while iamblicus does not really do that.
Current Research on Moses & Patriarchal Figures
00:12:30
Speaker
But I don't think that the goal the ultimate goal of theurgia is different eventually in iamblicus and Dionysius. I think that ah the goal is anyway to have a form of union with God.
00:12:46
Speaker
The difference is that the theurgia for Dionysius is ah how God operates on to the bottom reality.
00:12:57
Speaker
So to the lower levels of reality and hierurgia for Dionysus is how we humans operate through symbols to get closer to the divine.
00:13:09
Speaker
Okay, great. Yeah. Right. Okay. So, so with theurgy, that word, you know, often the the first thing we'll think of is the sort of sacred ritual action performed by humans.
00:13:23
Speaker
Yeah. But, um,
00:13:27
Speaker
in, uh, Iamblichus, there's also going to be the God side of that activity. So it's not that you would simply use the orgy to refer to, ah the human ritual actions.
00:13:42
Speaker
There's also sort of God side to that process. There's a way in which, uh, this, the gods for Iamblichus are involved in the ritual activity. And we are really,
00:13:56
Speaker
um when we, when we perform a ritual, we're kind of stepping into the stream of the gods activity. Um, but you're pointing out that, um,
00:14:09
Speaker
if you think of it that way, you know, if you think of it in terms of like a kind of God human process, there seems to be kind of two sides to it, which is the God side and the human side.
00:14:19
Speaker
And so ah the innovation you're pointing out is that in Dionysius, correct me if I'm wrong, we're going to use different terms for kind of those two sides. So the Theurgy is really, Dionysius, most especially used to talk about the activity of God,
00:14:41
Speaker
yeah Whereas heurgy with a is going to be ah used to reference and talk about our ritual yeah sacred activity.
00:14:55
Speaker
But you mentioned, you know you know, regardless of that difference, they we have the same purpose for both the Amblicus and um
00:15:07
Speaker
Dionysius, which is the union. Yes, of course. mean, yes of course i mean
00:15:15
Speaker
in Iamblichus is more clear, I think, because there is no differentiation.
00:15:28
Speaker
So, I mean, it's evident that theurgia is a practice that involves the usage of symbols and and is also um it's coming also from the divinity. I mean, illumination is not obtained by humanity or humans or priests because the usage of symbols. The illumination is always there, but the symbols are a tool to reach illumination. It's not that divinity is moved
00:16:00
Speaker
by theurgia. Divinity does not use theurgia because divinity i mean the the the the the divinity iss not move is The humanity and priests or ritual performers or whatever that use tools in order to get closer to illumination, while instead in Dionysius there is also the element of grace.
00:16:29
Speaker
So Of course, the majority of the job is on us. We do the majority of the struggle in order to get closer to the divine. The rituals and symbols are for us especially because we are weaker, we need more symbols, we need to imitate to imitate higher levels of reality in order to get closer to the divinity.
00:16:57
Speaker
But on the other hand, there is also um a form of reciprocity because the divinity, God in this case, needs to allow a grace.
00:17:08
Speaker
It's not just because I performed all the rituals, then I obtained deification. It's not that immediate, of course. There is also a form of reciprocity. It's not just has, performing rituals and obtaining things. Otherwise that would be magic. And I do not think that the Urgy can be conceived as a pure form of magic, not even in Iamblichus and of course not in Dionysius, who is a Christian author. So magic not is not and um is not conceived as a possibility at all.
00:17:44
Speaker
So there is a form of reciprocity. Of course, Dionysius differentiates more on that. And in particular, Hierarchy is the...
00:17:56
Speaker
we We need the use of symbols because there is a strong ah difference between us and God. So the the symbol needs to be used as a bridge to cover did as much as possible, of course, the ontological difference between us and the higher strata of reality.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, maybe we could just highlight that really quick, which is that... um something that's so interesting about Iamblichus is that, um, okay, so we have this goal of union, divine union, which, you know, you can associate with mysticism more broadly. Um, and, and you can think about how, you know, ah there's different ways of conceiving of how that union might be affected.
00:18:46
Speaker
So you might take a more, ah Platinian approach um where it seems like ah union with the divine is achieved in a more immaterial way in the sense of it's really through maybe our cognitive rational faculty that um a union is achieved. At least this is kind of how people typically talk about it.
00:19:13
Speaker
um Which is kind of, um so in contrast to that, you have something really interesting with the Amblicus, and which makes, you know, an Amblicus, for example, probably more interesting to a traditional kind of Christian, given the emphasis on the Eucharist and things like that.
00:19:30
Speaker
But in the Amblicus, there's a more emphasis on, actually, we're going to be using material material. reality um we're going to be using these symbols in order to ascend as it were. And so that's kind of a key dimension of Iamblichus that's kind of in I think naturally, you know, it's kind of obvious why that would be intriguing for ah from the Christian perspective, right?
00:19:59
Speaker
Is that and emphasize on embodied symbols. um So, yeah, I don't know if you could comment on that at all, that the importance of symbols and signs and that kind of thing. The fact is that, i of course, you're right in saying that Iamblichus is fascinating because of its usage of material symbol and in that symbol. This is also present with Dionysus, but one thing that is crucial in the understanding of the usage of symbols in Dionysus is the concept of proportionality. so
00:20:33
Speaker
you there are there is a hierarchy of symbol, but not in the fact that some symbols are more ontologically important of the others. But the fact is that given the fact that people and the ecclesiastical hierarchy is populated by different levels of people from the more ah basic ones to the higher priests,
00:21:02
Speaker
you have to use the symbol that is more appropriate to your level but in which you are at that moment. i I think that Dionysius also conceives a very strong and rigid form of hierarchy. So I honestly do not know if you can move.
00:21:18
Speaker
within the hierarchy, but this is a matter of discussion. However, The fact is that you use the symbol according to your level, to your proportional level. So the the symbol is a way to detect where you are in the hierarchy from a proportional point of view and how much you can imitate the divine. the same ah The more material the symbol is, the lower the strata of the of the ecclesiastical hierarchy, you are in that moment. This
00:21:54
Speaker
i don't know and to say that but this is not an onthlogic is this is not ah way to say this symbol functions less than another symbol, so this material symbol is less functioning of the divine names or the name good or whatever. This is not what I think Dionysius wants to say.
00:22:16
Speaker
just wants to say On the contrary, I think that it wants to say that every symbol hey can be the most suitable symbol for each strata of reality.
00:22:31
Speaker
I do think in a way that is very close to what Iamblichus conceives symbols, because we do have very metaric symbols and very in-depth with reality, ah symbols very in-depth with empirical reality, but on the other hand, we do have in Iamblichus huge part of intellectual symbols, intelligible symbols and linguistic symbols. So let's just think about the fact that Diamblicus didn't want to translate some names and formulas because he thought that the language and the name were significant per se.
00:23:10
Speaker
The symbol is the name, he is the language, and every part of the name is connected with the divine, so it should not be translated. And in the same way, we have in Dionysus a lot of huge differentiations of symbols, depending on where you are in the in the in the ecclesiastical hierarchy. So the more advanced you are in your process of contemplation, the more advanced you are in your ah process of knowledge, the more you will be able to use higher
00:23:46
Speaker
ah and immaterial forms of symbols, because the the gap you have to fill thinner, let's say like that. It's smaller.
00:23:59
Speaker
I see. Okay. but But if I caught what you're saying correctly, were you suggesting that in a way, you know, even if a symbol is connected to a higher rank,
00:24:12
Speaker
in the ecclesiastical hierarchy, that doesn't necessarily mean that the type of union will be with God possible will be superior. It's more like That's interesting. That's a very interesting question. So the fact is that Dionysus talks about union, of course, homo eus esteo. So this veification is the final aim, not just of the single, but of the entire hierarchy.
00:24:42
Speaker
And not just the ecclesiastical hierarchy, but all the hierarchies. So we do have the ecclesiastical hierarchy and the angelic realm and the thearchy at the end, and the final aim of the entire hierarchy, which ah is the concentration of the three hierarchies, right? So the entire hierarchy aims to deification.
00:25:04
Speaker
And of course, if we go ah if we we look at the single hierarchies, all the hierarchies tend to deification. And all these forms of union are proportional to the level of each member of the hierarchy. So why you may think that union is... i mean, the the the the thought is that maybe if the all these proportional levels will
00:25:36
Speaker
eventually end up in a different form of union because I am in the lower strata reality. So my type of union may be different from the high priest typology of deification.
00:25:48
Speaker
I do not think that. I do think that we have to think of deification in the same proportional way that we do think of contemplation, that we do think at symbols and way the way we look at symbols and the way we look at knowledge.
00:26:05
Speaker
Dionysus is the same way that we look at deification. We have different types of deification. He defines it as proportional deification. so We do have a form of proportional deification in which everyone has harmony with the divine in a proportional way that is suitable for their own level of ah presence in the hierarchy.
00:26:33
Speaker
I think that actually a perfect example of that can be found in Dante Alighieri. So in the Paradiso Dante Alighieri speaks with Piccarda Donati, she's a nun, and she's in the last heaven ah of um the the last sky of heaven, so the more distant from God.
00:26:55
Speaker
And Dante asks to Piccarda Donati, mean, are you not a bit frustrated by the fact that you are so far away from God? I mean, are you happy anyway?
00:27:08
Speaker
And Piccardo Donati says, and I think this is a almost a direct quotation from the Nazis, so he she says that, I am happy because I am where I belong.
00:27:19
Speaker
I am in the sky where I belong to because I am... proportionally exactly what I am supposed to be. So I do think that this is the, this is deification for Dionysus. Dionysus conceives deification, has proportional harmony in a way.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, fascinating. And I just, um I was just thinking maybe we should, we could mention some of the, like the, the way in which symbols could be, so like could be related to a different level in the hierarchy. So you might think of like,
00:27:54
Speaker
um in baptism, you have the symbols of water, oil, the white garment, um, candle.
00:28:06
Speaker
And so those symbols would be connected to like a specific rank, I guess, of the new initiate. Right. Um, whereas, you know, um,
00:28:21
Speaker
I guess like if you think about a higher level in the ecclesiastical hierarchy would connect to, you know, clerics and you'd be thinking about different symbols. So the imposition of hands, um the kneeling, the vestments and in, in, in, it's like these different symbols, it's not as though,
00:28:45
Speaker
Well, i yeah, it's it's tricky because it's the symbols are proportionate to the the rank. And so they are still affecting a union. um and it's and it's not as though it's like a somehow ah worse ultimately. the i'm I'm not sure exactly how to put it, but yeah.
00:29:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the so if you think of the ecclesiastical, I mean, the text, the ecclesiastical hierarchy describes the rituality in an in a great detail. If you read the ecclesiastical hierarchy, you came to realize that you have a proportional levels of symbols within the same sacraments.
00:29:25
Speaker
So while you are celebrating the the sacrament of ah communion or Eucharistia or whatever, you have different moments in which some sacraments of the of the ecclesiastical people can participate.
00:29:42
Speaker
But there are some other moments of the of the sacrament, of the ritual, in which not everyone is allowed, which means that in the same ritual there is a proportional i there is a proportional methodology. that This proportionality permeates the entire um conception of reality in Dionysius.
00:30:05
Speaker
Of course, the higher you get, the more intelligible and immaterial the symbol ah is. For example, I mean, maybe this will, I mean, we we can speak about that bit um further, but the higher priest is not just ah using it's not just um using a symbol, he's performing in imitation of Christ, which means that in the higher levels of reality for the Ecclesiastical hierarchy, there is not just a form of proportionality, but there is also a form of imitation, which is not just true for the higher levels, it's true for everyone.
00:30:48
Speaker
So you get to obtain the tools that you can perceive in order to imitate the higher forms of reality. Everything in the order of Dionysius is permeated by the concept of proportionality and imitation.
00:31:04
Speaker
So the symbol in this way fills void. So, I mean, the symbol is useful because it is the only way we do have to fill the void between each strata of reality.
00:31:21
Speaker
The symbol is the bridge that allows us to ah maintain the harmony and imitate the higher levels of rule. just on the question of the difference between you know comparison between eamblichus and uh dionysius on theurgy um what about the element of my understanding is that in in eamblichus there's this big emphasis on theurgy being an imitation of cosmogony an invitation of the um blanking on the the
00:31:54
Speaker
the title, but basically in ah the Timaeus, you have the Demiurge. Sorry. In a way, Theurgy is an imitation of the Demiurge and we are kind of ah imitating the way in which the Demiurge kind of creates the world and we kind of become sort of co-workers or co-creators of the world. and um Do you think that's an element of Dionysius, that kind of imitation of of being a creator as well? I'm just thinking, and well, anyway, I'm just curious. I completely, I think you got it. I mean, the fact is that, as I said, one of the core principles of Dionysius' idea of reality ah is proportionality and imitation and
00:32:39
Speaker
If re decla aiggoerki we we read that the higher priest performs rituality in imitation of Christ. And Christ is the true theurgist, because he's true God, he's also an act of theurgy because it is he is the son of God sent to the earth, for our salvation, right?
00:33:06
Speaker
So it's both the theurgist and the theological act. But apart from that, the higher priest, which is that a hierurgist, with the H, hierurgist, acts in imitation of the higher theurgist, which is Jesus that gave to us all the rituality and symbols, etc etc. So imitation is a core aspect of the difference between theurgy and the herurgy in Dionysius. And if we think, for example, also ah um to to to Moses, we realize that Moses actually at the end acts in pure imitation of ah of the divine. i mean, everything that he
00:33:50
Speaker
obtains the tables of law, the legal hierarchy, etc. Everything he does he is in imitation of the higher principle and of the of the divinity. Everything that we do have at our disposal to grasp divinity, namely the i mean the like the tables of law, the rituals, everything that we do have is um is a form of imitation of the original one. It's a symbol.
00:34:17
Speaker
Everything can be conceived as ah as a symbol that allows us to imitate divine proportionally. Awesome. Perfect. um So, but we and and I'm glad you brought up the Moses. I want to turn um there in just a moment, but maybe just really quick, just to kind of...
00:34:35
Speaker
ah maybe as a kind of cap this little bit of this discussion between, um, comparing the ambicus and Dionysius on theurgy. Um, you know, what I want to ask is basically like, okay, Dionysius is going to reserve the word theurgy for the kind of God's activity in reaching out to us as it were, uh, for the sake of union, he's going to use the word here G for our ritual activity.
00:35:05
Speaker
Um, Now, is that just a sort of terminological shift or what would you say is ultimately at stake? Is it like these two guys fundamentally understand um the process of divine union at a fundamentally and in the same way?
00:35:25
Speaker
Whereas Dionysius is just kind of using terminology differently or, or I guess my question is what is fundamentally at stake? What is like the, the, the fundamental theological insight, uh, that's goes on in using hiergy for the human activity, whereas the urge for gods.
00:35:48
Speaker
So I think that, so between Iamblichus and Dionysius, I do think there are, Lots of commonalities. I mean, there is ah huge similarity between between the two of them. And I think that they conceived the idea of union and... and and deification in a very similar way.
00:36:11
Speaker
them the The goal is very similar. However, I think that if if possible, I think that Dionysius used the word hierurgia and differentiated the two realms because he needed ah much more rigid yet differentiation I think that Dionysus is a very rigid thinker and I do not mean that in a bad way.
00:36:36
Speaker
i think that his conception of reality demands a form of rigidity because I think that he doesn't give into a a great account the empirical reality. I think that he has view of how reality is divided by ecclesiastical hierarchy, angelic realm and thearchy.
00:37:03
Speaker
And I think that his necessity, his need for division does not take into account the fact that reality doesn't work like that.
00:37:16
Speaker
I mean, humanity does not really work like that. And if you read the letters of Dionysus, you come to realize that he has difficulties in combining his rigidity with the fact that people tend to live and move and have this tendency of coming and going and trying to get closer to higher strata of reality instead of standing their own place.
00:37:42
Speaker
So I think that the division between theurgia and hierurgia tells us that Dionysius he is a very rigid thinker and needs to differentiate between man and God in a very strong way because he needs to say, God hes this can do this thing and we can only imitate him.
00:38:09
Speaker
Okay, interesting. Okay, so you you might almost take it in a little bit of a critical direction and say it's reflective of like, of a maybe excessive rigidity.
00:38:22
Speaker
i find very ah strong rigidity. I like it in Dionysius, honestly. I like this idea of a perfect harmony of reality. And I like the fact that his anthropol is his necessity of rigidity doesn't really fit the anthropology, the reality of anthropology.
00:38:43
Speaker
But I think that is true. the I think that he succeeded in a way in dividing the the two worlds, divine activity and sacred actions, in a very effective way, because to me it's very clear.
00:39:03
Speaker
From one hand you have the imitation of theurgia, which is the hierurgia, and this attempt to get closer to the divine, and on the other hand you have the ah the divine action that is the creation per se.
00:39:20
Speaker
the creation per se so everything that we do is just an imitation of the very first act creation. I see. Okay, great. Yeah. So in speaking of that, theurgy kind of properly referencing ah God's creative activity. I was kind of curious, you also refer to theurgy as the sign the science of the contemplation of God.
00:39:48
Speaker
And so I was kind of curious, how do we fit those two together? This idea of on the one hand, theurgy is referring to God's creative activity yeah for the sake of union. And then also theurgy as the science of contemplation of God.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yes, so when Dionysus speaks about the theurgicese episteme, so the the knowledge of ah contemplation, the knowledge of theurgia, I think that he's speaking on the fact that one thing is the act of theurgia, so the um the act in se, we per say which is the which can which can be considered the hierarchy in itself. that The hierarchy can be conceived as an act of theurgy, but also the fact in itself that Jesus was sent to to us is an act of theurgy.
00:40:44
Speaker
So this is the energeia. And this is just... the is only is is an k act that is only ah related to God. We do not have nothing to do with that. We cannot enter in that realm. But on the other hand, we can elaborate a rational discourse on theurgy. We can elaborate ah knowledge on theurgy, which can also be conceived as hierurgy in a sense, because we tend to imitate theurgy in different ways.
00:41:18
Speaker
One of these is hierurgy. But in general, I think that when it went when he speaks when it talks about contemplation of theurgy, so the science of contemplation, I think he's speaking about the rational act, the ah way to the rational struggle, our struggle to talk and conceive theurgy from a theoretical point of view.
00:41:44
Speaker
Okay. And and when that makes sense. And when it comes to our attempt to conceive theurgy, I mean, how much is of that is,
00:41:59
Speaker
like, I guess what i'm wondering is that from our perspective, the science of the contemplation of God, how much of that is basically the description of, rights and the symbols involved in that? I mean, how much of it is, um you know, um like in a way is the science, like, I'm just wondering how much, sorry, yeah the you know, is is is our science of the contemplation of God given the emphasis on embodiment generally speaking, in the usage of symbols. I mean, is that going to be ultimately our description of, you know, the way bread, wine and the altar is used in the Eucharistic rite? Or is it going to be our description of, you know, the usage of incense and anointing in the funeral rite? I mean, I'm just kind of wondering, like, it, it,
00:42:53
Speaker
When you really make a large emphasis on symbol and embodiment, it seems like almost ah those description of those rituals are almost become our science of the contemplation of God in a way.
00:43:05
Speaker
Yeah, i see the I see what you mean. And I think that is partially like that. of course um I mean, of course, Christianity has drawn a lot from the rule the mosyic rules, rules, so we do have a part on that. I mean we we we i think that Dionysus thinks that a part of all the contemplat science of contemplation is, of course, the description of rituality, the description of um the the sacred oil, the red wine, etc. But on the other hand, we do not have to forget that Dionysus also differentiation differentiates between positive theology and negative theology. And the negative theology, it's all
00:43:52
Speaker
about the ah theia the theoretical speculation. and It's not just about rituals, it's about eliminating all the unnecessary elements that are not describing God. In a way, everything is unnecessary to describe God, right? I mean, there is no way to describe God properly because the only proper way to describe God in a way is silence.
00:44:23
Speaker
So everything is a symbol, even language in itself is a symbol. So the more you eliminate, the more you do not have elements to ah to describe your experience of God.
00:44:37
Speaker
But I think that this again comes with, at the end, this comes to proportionality. I mean, the but the the the the possibility to contemplate, the the the science of contemplation can be can be the science of rituals, that the knowledge of rituals, the knowledge of the symbols and the knowledge of the material symbols.
00:45:05
Speaker
But also, the more you develop your knowledge, it is also the knowledge of the divine names, that it is the knowledge of the mystical theology.
00:45:16
Speaker
So I think that in a way, if you read the Corpus de Unicea, you realize that the not the science of contemplation starts with the ecclesiastical and angelic realm and hence with the knowledge of mystical theology, which is the most ah blurred and um and immaterial way to to contemplate God.
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah. Fascinating. It's such a fascinating mixture of like rituality and apophatic sort of mysticism and the negative way that you're talking about. what it i mean You need both to come to a decent knowledge of the divinity. It's never complete, of course, but you need both. You need the ritualistic element and the apophatic element, that that the apical moment of contemplation.
00:46:11
Speaker
It's a moment, intellectual moment, it's not ah ah ritualistic moment. It's beyond ritualistic moments. But you need that in order to achieve higher levels of contemplation.
00:46:24
Speaker
Fascinating. Awesome. um Maybe now we can turn a little bit to more, you know,
00:46:31
Speaker
theological key, I suppose. um So, you know, it seems like for Dionysius, um there would be no, well, it's kind tricky. We'll talk about Moses in a little bit, but it seems like in a way there will be, there would be no genuine union with God without Christ, that Christ is somehow essential to our embodied hiergy or embodied sacred action.
00:46:59
Speaker
And so, um, How would you put, would you think, would you agree with that way of putting it that Christ makes possible the heururgical action we do? um And yeah, I'm just kind of curious what.
00:47:12
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's, that's, that's a fascinating question. so I would think that Christ, I mean, Christ is of course the,
00:47:22
Speaker
ah one of the central figures of the Corpus Dionysiacum. I mean, ah ah for a while, scholarship has had the idea that maybe Christ was not that present in the Corpus Dionysiacum. I mean, it's not really a thing anymore, but it's I don't think it's true anyway. I mean, it's I think that Christ is very present within the Corpus Dionysiacum and Christ is the most important and yet mysterious element of the Corpus Dionysiacum because in Christ to you have both the theurgical act and the theurgist itself. So Christ is the one that descends from above coming to to us and in order to save us, he gives
00:48:12
Speaker
as the twelve rituals and symbols and all the pleasure of things that we can use to come back to him. i mean, we do have something similar in Moses and we will talk about that, I think in a bit, but what makes Christ unique in the Corpus Unisiacum is that he is the embodiment of the symbol and the the subject.
00:48:37
Speaker
So he's both theurgist and act of theurgy, which makes it, incredibly mysterious and unsolvable in a way. Yeah, I was, I think a little bit about, um I'm not sure if you're familiar with the book, ah The Fourth Cup by Scott Hahn, but it's interesting biblical theology just, and I mean,
00:49:00
Speaker
and some of it, of course, you you are you familiar with just the way in which if you think about the Last Supper, and and if you think about it in comparison to the Moses's Passover, um you think about how you know the the lamb is sacrificed in the cedar ritual, and then Christ not only is the here just in the sense of he's doing the ritual itself at the last supper, but then also he becomes ah like the subject as well. Like you're talking about in terms of he himself becomes, is the lamb of God who is sacrificed.
00:49:40
Speaker
um And anyway, I don't know. There's just a lot of things you can think about in that. and that's exactlyly I mean, I think you're right. And anyway, there are more layers to, to see that moment because on one hand,
00:49:54
Speaker
you see Christ becoming both symbol and subject. So in him, think he is the only moment in which you don't, that them the utility of the symbol falters in a way, because if I, in Coming back to what I said the beginning, the symbol is a gap, is ah a bridge to fill a gap, to fill a void.
00:50:17
Speaker
But in Christ, this void does not exist because there is a total identity, ontological identity between the subject and the object. He is both things simultaneously.
00:50:28
Speaker
And I think that if we look at at another perspective in terms of imitation, Christ is the perfect, is the only one that can be imitated because the higher priest performs the ritual in imitation of God, which means that he imitates the form of union that Jesus obtains while performing the rituals, because he is the only one that can be both subject and ah symbol, while the higher priest, of course, does not have this possibility.
00:51:02
Speaker
But this is the exactly the purpose of imitation, right? You imitate someone, in this case, Jesus, even if you know you will never be able to fully grasp that moment of day of of union.
00:51:17
Speaker
This is just a form of imitation because you know that that level of reality is just unreachable to you. But it is the archetypical moment you have to look at in order to imitate it.
00:51:34
Speaker
and In terms of being both ah subject and symbol like that, and ah does that also connect to the idea that you talk about in Dionysius, the idea that Jesus is both the product of theurgy and then theurgist himself?
00:51:50
Speaker
um is Is that kind of... Yes, I think so. I mean, I think that... while performing the ritual and i mean jesus is the ritual in itself i mean jesus is the symbol in itself jesus is the symbol that was sent from the father to us in order to imitate him but at the same time he teaches us how to imitate him because he is the theurgist he performs rituals And he is the ritual, he is the symbol, he is the perfect
00:52:24
Speaker
um ah consummation of symbol and theurgist at the same time. And also think this is the core difference between him and Moses, because Jesus does not ascend to God, Jesus descends.
00:52:42
Speaker
And in a way, this is also the difference between theurgia and theurgia. Theurgia is done, is practiced from the higher levels to the bottom levels. And Jesus is the perfect representation of this movement because he does not need to to ascend. He decides to descend tos descend, which is totally the opposite action that we need to take in order to arrive to God.
00:53:07
Speaker
We need to ascend. Yeah. ah Just real quick, I mean, is in a way, you know, you're talking about the there's that kind of... um desire to, to separate and distinguish in Dionysius between hiergy and theurgy, but, and, and how the, and how a symbol can kind of fill the gaps. I'm just wondering in a way, I guess, Christ, especially at the last supper is is is interestingly both here, just in theory, just as you've been indicating. And so it's like, there's a kind of bridging there in a way I,
00:53:41
Speaker
um yeah I just think of him as herergist in that context, just because he is taking the role that that you know the ah the Jewish person would have played in conducting um the Passover ritual um that evening. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Jesus is both theurgist and act of theurgy. And of course, this can be seen as is both theurgist and theurgist.
00:54:05
Speaker
But I think that the role of Yerurgis is better embodied in Moses because Moses is just a man. I mean, Moses is just, of course, it's not just a man. He is the patriarch. so Right, yeah yeah. We don't want to downplay his role. i mean, i'm not exactlyly i'm not I'm not saying that Moses is just a man, but compared to Jesus, it's fair to say that he is man. of course, yeah.
00:54:32
Speaker
But... that That is the difference. So the theurgist does not need to descend, he chooses to descend, and in him all the elements of the rituals and ontological identity are involved.
00:54:52
Speaker
In Jesus we meet the symbol and the creator of the symbol. So there is ah identity a strong identity between the symbol and the theurgist, which makes him mysterious, unconceivable, because there is no gap, there is no distance between the symbol and the object.
00:55:14
Speaker
Therefore, for us, it's impossible to to describe it. Instead, Moses not both a symbol and a theurgist.
00:55:28
Speaker
He is a man that was chosen and he performed a very complex contemplative journey from the bottom to the mountain. The mountain represents usually the the the the contemplative struggle, right the contemplative journey and he ascends.
00:55:48
Speaker
which reproduces, in my humble opinion, the movement of Yerugyi from the bottom to the higher levels and everything that he has, the tables of law and the garment and the the Ark of Covenant, everything that he does are not the direct reproduction of what God wants. It's not a theurgy, it's not theurgy, it's the herurgy, because he does everything in imitation of the divine, teaching us how to imitate the divine, of course, because he is the
00:56:22
Speaker
archetypical human figure, but is never ah isn ne ah it can never be considered considering it in identity with the divine.
00:56:33
Speaker
The only moment, I think, in which he can be considered deificated is when he reaches the peak of contemplation on the Mount Sinai.
00:56:44
Speaker
But he descends.
00:56:49
Speaker
deificated for a moment, but then he comes back. There is a necessity for him to come back. Otherwise, we do not we would not have the tables of law, we would do not have the rules and the book of Genesis and et cetera. Moses is the figure of the perfect prophet because he meets God, he is in union with God, but then he comes back.
00:57:14
Speaker
He descends because if there is a necessity. right Right, fascinating. I mean, yeah, so when it comes to Moses, you know, we can kind of think of different dimensions of his life. He's so, in ways, very multifaceted in that, um on the one hand, we have him as a sort of a foundational legislator. He he goes, he sends Mount Sinai, he brings down the Ten Commandments written on tables of stone, brings the law.
00:57:40
Speaker
um And then, but on the other hand, we also have that element of he speaks to God face to face as one speaks with a friend. He enters the cloud that covers the mountain and then you know it descends with his face shining. And that seems to have a more mystical, um spiritual dimension, whereas the first dimension is more um related to legislation.
00:58:07
Speaker
and And so that legislative aspect is why Dionysus will call Moses the founder of the legal hierarchy. um And so can you kind of just touch on that a little bit, you know, what it means for him to found um the legal hierarchy?
00:58:25
Speaker
Yeah, sure. so So actually, Dionysus says that... ah Moses is the founder of the legal hierarchy, but he doesn't really go in deep on this legal hierarchy. We do have the text the text Celestial Hierarchy, but we do not have treaty with legal hierarchy. So we do not really know what is in this legal hierarchy.
00:58:56
Speaker
we we We can assume that Moses but that gionysius wanted to to say that moses created group of rules and legislations that ah operate the that's help ah operating on the on ecclesiastical yarous soice the the legislation that um operates in the ecclesiastical hierarchy.
00:59:22
Speaker
But what i I think is fascinating on the of the character of Moses is that I think that in him, we can find more than just one archetype, a philosophical archetype.
00:59:36
Speaker
So we do have the legislator, but we also do have the very educated man because Moses is the is the prophet that was since was instructed by the Egyptians and ah therefore he was very educated and he had the possibility to contemplate divine truths in a way that is ah is different in in a complete way as much as possible. And it's not just the archetypical of the educated man, but also a very high moral standards, of archetypical of high moral standards
01:00:14
Speaker
He's the archetype of the contemplator, the guy who can speak directly with Moses. So I think that Moses, maybe also more than Jesus, represents a sort of pedagogical exemplum for Dionysus. So he is the guy that can be ah ah looked at when you're looking for a pedagogical person.
01:00:38
Speaker
ah exemplu right This is how you should behave if you want to be ah a philosopher, if you want to be a contemplator, if you want to be a good man, you should look at Moses because Moses is the the person, the human being that ah embodied all these qualities more than anyone else.
01:00:57
Speaker
Right. in and And given that, that he, in a way, he is a really privileged, important example for us. And also the fact that he, you know, he did achieve a type of, um you know, by the grace of God, a mystical contemplation when he ascended Mount Sinai. I mean, what, why is it that he's still still not sufficient for us? Like why, i guess, um is Christ still needed um um
01:01:31
Speaker
given. Yeah, i don't know if that that makes sense. Yeah. yeah know It makes perfect sense. Actually, i asked myself that question and I think that the answer is twofold.
01:01:41
Speaker
So first of all, Dionysus is Christian. So he cannot say that Moses is the most perfect one. Otherwise, they was this would happen. make him Judaic, which is not really the same. Even if I think that the um the the topic of Moses as exemplar exemplary figure comes from Philo of Alexandria. So we do have lots of authors that get interested in Moses along history. I mean, let's think of Philo, Gregory of Nyssa, Pseudo-Dionysus and many others.
01:02:19
Speaker
So I think that there is a trade union between the Judaic rendering of Moses and the Christian rendering of Moses.
01:02:29
Speaker
On the other hand, of course, Dionysus is Christian, so he needed Christ. But from a more um theoretical point of view, I think that what truly matters is that Dionysius wants to stress on the fact that Moses is still human and Jesus is not.
01:02:49
Speaker
And as much as he as he differentiates between theurgia and theurgia, he needed a counterpart. Moses representing theurgia at the highest level and Jesus representing the most elaborated form of theurgia.
01:03:12
Speaker
Okay, so so Moses, you know, i mean, you write in in your paper, Moses could divinize himself through sacred contemplation, but only Christ embodies true theurgy. So there, that's kind of, you're touching on that three-year radical reason for why Christ is necessary, is that ultimately ah we needed the embodiment of true theurgy in a person. And Moses,
01:03:41
Speaker
finally finally could not provide um the embodiment of true theurgy simply because he is not divine. He is not... um Exactly. He doesn't have the God side of the God-man formula. Exactly. He cannot embody the symbol and the theurgical act at the same time.
01:04:03
Speaker
In him, Moses, the... The time, in a way, there is there is a timing in Moses. So before he's a man, then he contemplates, then he becomes divine while contemplating. when So e he obtains deification and then he comes back.
01:04:25
Speaker
So there is a sort of um sub-sequentiality in Moses. okay We can see time running in Moses. While in Jesus' This does not happen because time does not exist in Jesus.
01:04:40
Speaker
He is simultaneously the symbol and the theological act. In this way, I think that Moses is also representative of the perfect typology of prophet because he chooses to come back. I mean, evil eat if it was just then a selfish act of contemplation, he could have decided to just stay there and contemplate in God.
01:05:03
Speaker
But I think that the descent from the mountain to the bottom is a form of pedagogical mission.
01:05:14
Speaker
He comes back because since he is human and he imitates God, everything that he produces is a sacred action and is a sacred ritual. So he can teach others how to perform these rituals in a different way that Jesus does because Jesus is a both true man and true God. So it's it's a different thing.
01:05:40
Speaker
Moses is the embodiment of the perfect prophet of another typology of figure while Christ is the embodiment of perfection and union in every form possible.
01:05:55
Speaker
Wow. Fascinating. Amazing. i'm and i'm I'm kind of conscious of time now and, uh, there's so many things I'd like to, I mean, one thing I'm kind of thinking about is just how it seems like Moses in a way institutes the Passover ritual.
01:06:11
Speaker
Um, but it seems like maybe the symbols almost had an income. They didn't, they don't really quite have the same level of effectiveness. If you think about the, the, the, um,
01:06:25
Speaker
the Christ Passover and what he affects through it. Like, I'm just thinking, um you know, the the different symbols in the in the Passover ritual might, you know, be symbols of the freedom from slavery of Egypt.
01:06:44
Speaker
um But, the freedom that But in Christ's Passover, you know we have the freedom, is actually affected the freedom from sin and death.
01:06:57
Speaker
um Anyway, i'm i um this is I'm kind of rambling here, but I'm just thinking about it. It's interesting to think about kind of what symbols Christ is able to institute versus Moses and the effectiveness of those symbols in a way.
01:07:10
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, india use in the if I do not get wrong, it's the divine names. so ah He says that Jesus is the form that gives form.
01:07:23
Speaker
And he also speaks of a double death, a thearchic death and a human death. So in Jesus, the form the bed the the the symbol of death comes to a consummation in a way, because he is the only one that can die in a twofold manner and in this way is not a death that means a complete end, but it's that that it can be a symbol of restoration. So therefore Jesus, he's in a way the promise that was ah um once, ah I mean, is is the consummation of the promise of Moses. i mean, Moses is the, is just the prelude of what Jesus is able to do afterwards.
01:08:18
Speaker
Right. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Clelia. That was a really awesome conversation. um I'm just kind of curious if if there's anything, ah can you kind of tell us what you're working on now? Are you preparing anything now? I'm just curious.
01:08:32
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, at the moment, here in Germany, I am working on the figure of Moses in in several authors. And now at the moment, I'm working on the possibility to extend this analysis, this archetypical analysis to to other patriarchal figures, because I think that the biographical element of these patriarchal figures is in the understanding of the um the way Christianity used narrative expedients to deliver some messages.