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When Wealth Isn’t the Answer – Understanding the Emotional Side of Money
45 Plays22 days ago
Courtney Markley, founder of the Center for Financial Discipleship, shares her journey from bridal fashion designer to financial counselor. She and Tom discuss how wealth doesn’t solve money-related anxiety and how our past—especially childhood trauma—can deeply influence generosity. This episode explores the surprising truth that even high-net-worth individuals often struggle to talk about money, revealing how fundraisers can become safe, nonjudgmental conversation partners.
Key Themes:
- Courtney’s personal financial transformation
- Why math isn’t enough: money behaviors vs. financial literacy
- The deep emotional and spiritual pitfalls of wealth
- How major gift officers unintentionally become confidants
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Transcript
Introduction
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Abundant Vision Fundraising Podcast. Whether you are a seasoned professional or a first-time fundraiser, we have the advice you need to take your next step toward major gift mastery.
00:00:18
Speaker
I'm your host, Tom Dauber, President of Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting.
00:00:27
Speaker
Well, good morning. This is Tom Dauber with the Abundant Vision Fundraising Podcast.
Meet Courtney Markley
00:00:31
Speaker
I am pleased to have Courtney Markley on my show today. Now, Courtney, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
00:00:43
Speaker
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Tom, for having me on. So I have been working as a financial counselor the past several years and I, similar to yourself, I'm a podcaster. I host the Heart Money podcast.
00:00:56
Speaker
I am just most recently launched the Center for Financial Discipleship, where we are on a mission to really change the way that people talk about money. So I'm so excited for what we're going to get up to today. It's going to be great.
00:01:11
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds fantastic. I'm eager to learn more about what you do. It's very unique.
Courtney's Personal Life
00:01:14
Speaker
Now, before we dive into all that professional stuff, though, tell us a little bit about what you do when you're not focused on finances.
00:01:23
Speaker
Oh, if my husband was sitting here, he would laugh because he would say she doesn't do anything else other than this thing. It's what she loves. It's my hobby and it's my profession. It's my craft. It's everything that I love to do.
00:01:37
Speaker
But I am also I'm married to my husband, Adam, for 13 years, I want to say. I hope I'm not misquoting that. We have two kids who are five and three.
00:01:48
Speaker
So when I'm not working or talking to someone about money, money conversations, I'm probably taking care of my two kids or very hyper dog.
00:02:00
Speaker
So that's more than likely what I'm getting up to if I'm not in the middle of having a conversation with someone. Oh, that's fantastic. Now I love dogs. I've got about 220 pounds of dog in my kitchen right now.
00:02:13
Speaker
What type of dog do you have? We have a mini Bernadoodle. Oh my goodness. Yes. This was, we, you know, a lot of people had COVID babies. We had a COVID puppy. That was definitely something that was not planned that came out of COVID. And at the time we had two toddlers And we thought, why not get a puppy and just throw that into the mix? That makes sense. So, yeah, we love him. He very, he's very hyper, very, like, goofy.
00:02:44
Speaker
fits in very well with the family, I'll say that. That's fantastic. Well, we both have doodles and we also have a Bernese. Really? Yeah. Love the personality of that Bernese. Love the personality of our golden doodle. Yeah. Golden doodle. And of course we've got a purebred golden as well.
00:03:02
Speaker
But yeah. Great breeds. I love it. Yeah. They're so fun and they just keep you on your toes. Absolutely. Yeah. The kids aren't acting up. It's the dog. So, you know, you just never know what to expect every day. It's great. Oh, you're not you're not kidding.
Role of a Financial Counselor
00:03:18
Speaker
So so tell our audience a little bit about your professional journey. What you do is unique. And I'm very excited to expose folks to it and learn more about it myself.
00:03:28
Speaker
Well, what do you do and how did you come to do it? Yeah. So financial counseling, it looks very different than financial advising, which is normally what someone might compare us to if they're not quite sure of exactly what financial counselors do.
00:03:45
Speaker
So for the record, we don't manage wealth. We don't sell any financial products. So you wouldn't come to me to invest anything. I'm not going to sell you insurance or anything like that.
00:03:56
Speaker
But what we do is we talk to people about their behaviors with money. We get to go, I say we get to do the fun stuff where we're helping people that when they sit down to their advisor, whoever they might be working with, they have a course of action. They know what they want to do. So we talk to people maybe about what do you actually want to do in retirement and what does that look like? And Do you want to pass on your wealth to your kids? And let's go really deep dive into potentially the positives negatives of what could happen in those circumstances.
00:04:31
Speaker
We talk a lot about people's fears and their insecurities around money. Just their past history with money and all these things that may keep them
Courtney's Financial Journey
00:04:41
Speaker
up at night.
00:04:43
Speaker
And so that's what we get to do as financial counselors. So it's all about the conversation. It's all about developing deep relationships with people. And I will say that when I started in finance, I didn't quite know what I was getting myself into. I'll be perfectly honest.
00:05:02
Speaker
I started out as a financial coach and long story short, I don't know how much of the background you want. So stop me if you want me to go deeper, but...
00:05:15
Speaker
I did not set out to be in finance. I initially went to school for fashion design and that was the career I was working as a fashion designer for, for many, many years.
00:05:28
Speaker
Uh, During that time, got myself into quite the financial mess. I went to college in Chicago and I worked in a very prestigious bridal salon and we serve celebrity clients and all these fabulous people.
00:05:43
Speaker
And was essentially just a broke college kid spending money trying to look like I fit into this world that I very much did not fit into. Yeah. And so when I graduated school and began working as a fashion designer, even in our young 20s, and I say we, my husband and were already married at this point, we had accumulated ton of debt.
00:06:05
Speaker
And even though we made a really good income, it was my behavior with money that was causing all of these issues. And then we started to see how that also formed some marriage tensions and some mental health issues. And it just started to spiral from there.
00:06:23
Speaker
So long story short, while I was still working as a fashion designer, I started meeting with the stewardship pastor at our church to get help. And basically said, you know, I think a lot of these issues that I'm facing in my relationships and in my mental health and otherwise might have something to do with my relationship with money.
00:06:43
Speaker
And so I didn't realize it at the time, but I was starting to get kind of a crash course in financial counseling. But I was the participant. And so that's how it all started. And then it started to snowball from there where I loved the work that we were doing together. was seeing the benefits from it in my own life.
00:07:04
Speaker
So I started teaching some the classes at our church, and then I got trained to be a coach. And then I started my own financial coaching business. And again, when I started, I hadn't quite connected all of these dots.
00:07:18
Speaker
But I thought, well, people struggle with money simply because they just don't understand how the math works. So I'm going to teach them how to budget and I'm going teach them financial literacy. I'm going to show them exactly how the math works and I'm going to deliver this to them on a silver platter and then all of their money problems will go away.
00:07:36
Speaker
And I'm sure many of your audience laughing because they know like it's not that simple. Right. It's really not
Financial Behaviors vs Math
00:07:41
Speaker
that simple. And so after after quite a few years of doing this, what I was recognizing was that many of the folks who are coming to me actually had a lot of And they were really, really intelligent people.
00:07:56
Speaker
And so it wasn't a problem of they don't understand how math works. No, they were running, you know, some of them were running billion dollar budgets for their companies. And yet their home life, the finances were just a wreck.
00:08:10
Speaker
And so then that was when I started to step back and realize, okay, there's something much deeper going on here. This really has very little to do with math and it has a whole lot to do with our heart.
00:08:21
Speaker
So how do we start to shift the conversation around money? so that it's not just about math and science with rules and regulations, but it's really more about psychology with emotions and there's a ton of nuance to it.
00:08:34
Speaker
And so how do we start to help people by leaning into that side of things? And so that's now what I do with people. That's why we have the Heart of Money podcast and it's to help people kind of get underneath whatever financial pain point that they might be experiencing.
00:08:52
Speaker
Wow. That's really interesting. I think one of the things that I find, having been a major gift fundraiser for a long time, is that donors oftentimes have no one to talk to really about their finances and their financial
Donors and Financial Conversations
00:09:09
Speaker
struggles. And they might have a wealth advisor, someone investing their money, but the question of who do I leave my money to? What's a good investment? What's my legacy? What do I want There's no one.
00:09:21
Speaker
And oftentimes, as the development officer, sometimes you become there confident on those issues. And on the one hand, it's a wonderful blessing to be trusted to that degree.
00:09:33
Speaker
But at the same time, you kind of feel bad for the person. It's like, wow, it seems like other than this stranger that doesn't really know you that well, that you only... It seems like there ought to be more people in your life thinking through those things. Because, of course, as a major gift officer, you would never really advise a person. At least you shouldn't.
00:09:53
Speaker
Well, you should definitely leave. Tom Dauber here for Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting. Fundraising can be hard work, and it can be hard to mentally get into the place you need to be in order to see new opportunities.
00:10:07
Speaker
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00:10:27
Speaker
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00:10:42
Speaker
Now, back to the show. Leave that kid out of, you know, your estate. You know, why'd you put that money over you? Like, you just wouldn't do that if you were ethical, right?
Wealth and Mental Health
00:10:53
Speaker
So it's good that there's someone like you who's really trying to have those conversations because we don't necessarily think that that person managing that billion dollar budget, you know, you just assume they have it all together. But what I'm hearing from you is that's really not the case all the time.
00:11:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's really not. It's interesting. There seems to be a flip of a switch when we're running a budget for someone else, like our employer, for our business. We can look at it without all of the emotions involved. And we don't have quite the same skin in the game as when we come home, especially if they're married. They say, OK, now we have to figure out how to make these decisions with this other person. And we may want very different things and we're struggling to communicate.
00:11:37
Speaker
And now there's all this tension that's starting to build. And also, how in the world do we start talking to our adult children about these things when I don't even feel like I have it together and I'm not sure how to proceed? And so can get really sticky. And so I always like to encourage people, like, don't assume that people have it all together just because they're incredibly smart or they're really good at business.
00:12:02
Speaker
It doesn't always translate to home life same way. Hmm. Wow. So, so Courtney, I have spent a little time looking at your LinkedIn profile. And as I hear you describe your work, I immediately see some things that are very interesting to me. I'd love to hear more about.
00:12:19
Speaker
Talk to me about ways that, that wealth can be dangerous. You talk about, you know, helping people avoid pitfalls that folks fall into.
00:12:29
Speaker
What, what are common problems that wealthy people run into Absolutely. And so think initially when people hear that question, what are some of the pitfalls of wealth? Sometimes you have to sit back for a minute say, what do you even mean?
00:12:46
Speaker
Because I think the cultural narrative that we have is, well, life is going be so much better. Life's going to easier. going to less problems the more money you have. But one of the one of the things that I highlight for folks when they ask what I do is I help people kind of navigate those, the spiritual and mental pitfalls that revolve around wealth and success. Cause there are quite a few of them. They're just not really talked about that much, but what we see if we start to zoom out the average American household, and this is just the average household. I imagine that, a lot of the,
00:13:22
Speaker
people that your audience is engaging with is probably well above average in terms of wealth, I'm assuming. But even just the average American household ranks within the top 4% wealthiest people in the world, 4% wealthiest people in the world. And yet three out of four Americans say that they struggle with significant anxiety around money. And that is regardless of income.
00:13:47
Speaker
Okay. That's regardless of income.
Wealth's Effect on Relationships
00:13:49
Speaker
We see that, Money fights and money problems is a leading cause for divorce. Again, that is not just for those with less, but that is very much true with those who have much as well.
00:14:02
Speaker
So we see that we have a lot of money as a whole, as a society, but we still have a lot of anxiety around money. And what we're noticing is as people's income continues to grow well above that national average,
00:14:19
Speaker
what we're seeing is that they potentially have higher risks for getting into addictions. They have poor mental health. They have higher risk of suicide. They're lonely. They don't have people in their corners that they can trust to talk to.
00:14:34
Speaker
And so we can see that there's a direct correlation between much money you and poor mental health. poor relational health, for my Christian clients, poor spiritual health, if they don't know how to manage it properly.
00:14:53
Speaker
That's very helpful. And I think these questions apply to everyone, whether they're coming from a faith-based background or not.
00:15:03
Speaker
When you think about our country, being, I mean, arguably the wealthiest country in the history of the world. But it seems to me as a non-expert that we also probably have the highest levels of mental illness in the world, including our wealthy people, I'm sure, making up part of that number. So I think what you're trying to address is really, really critical.
00:15:28
Speaker
Yeah. So how does having a safe space to talk about life and money, how does that help with these types of issues, Courtney?
00:15:41
Speaker
It's really, helps tremendously. I don't know if we can understate it. Most people don't have a safe place to talk to someone about their life and their money.
00:15:54
Speaker
And that is true, again, regardless of how much money you have. We see both ends of the spectrum where if I'm talking to someone who doesn't have a lot of money, maybe they feel a lot of guilt and shame just because maybe they're not as successful as they want to be. But then on the opposite end of the spectrum, where you have someone who's highly, highly successful, they have a ton of money, there are still a lot of negative emotions that that they wrestle with.
00:16:23
Speaker
You know, I've talked to some clients who say, have so much guilt and shame around having so much money. And so my friends don't even know how much money we actually have, because I'm worried that they would judge us.
00:16:38
Speaker
And there are some folks you talk to who say, I feel so lonely because everyone just looks at me and sees dollar signs and I can't have an authentic relationship with someone because I'm just worried that they won something from me.
00:16:54
Speaker
And so you can see there's not just one reason why it might be difficult for someone to engage in money conversations, but it could be a whole lot of different things coming together that make it difficult.
00:17:06
Speaker
So I encourage people, if you are someone who is actively engaging others in money conversations to hold a safe space as much as you can to be one of the only people that they may engage with who doesn't want something from them, but truly wants something for them, which I know is probably a common phrase that we use in like donor acquisition and things like that. But I think we can't understate how important is that people truly do need this human to human connection where they feel like they can actually be vulnerable.
00:17:45
Speaker
And I think that there is a misconception that's like, oh, it's so uncomfortable to talk about money or it's so uncomfortable to talk about these hard things. When actually I find that if we create that safe, non-judgmental space,
00:18:01
Speaker
People are really hungry for They really desire to have a place where they can go and share what's bothering them or what's on their heart and just be open to another person.
Understanding Donor Behavior
00:18:14
Speaker
Well, I'm curious, major gift officers, as you might expect, executive directors, the different sorts of folks that listen to this show, many of us spend a lot of time trying to understand the mind of the donor, just generally speaking, which is oftentimes the wealthy donor.
00:18:32
Speaker
Are there insights that you've learned through this process you know, that might be really helpful for major gift officer or some other type of fundraiser to really keep in mind when trying to engage with folks.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. The first thing that comes to mind, and this is just one that I have picked up on, you know, I get to spend a lot of time with a lot of folks in this industry.
00:18:57
Speaker
And one of the common frustrations that I hear quite a bit is like, man, I know this donor is worth X amount of dollars, and we're only asking for this much. You know, the math makes sense. It's such a small amount compared to their overall net worth. And I've showed them how all the math works, and they still are hesitant to give, or they're still holding back. And that's just really frustrating for me, and I'm not sure why that is.
00:19:25
Speaker
I'm curious if you hear that, too, from different folks. Yeah. So what I like to remind people is that you truly have no idea what this person is up against. And now that I've been a counselor for so many years, I no longer show up to the table and wonder like, oh, wonder if they have something from their past that's hindering them.
00:19:51
Speaker
No, no, it's I wonder what happened in their past that's hindering them. We all have something. And I'm reminded of a client that I've worked with who is a millionaire. And I can share a lot about their story potentially later. But he at a young age had an alcoholic father. And every time he thinks about giving money away, money's become his security blanket, right? And every time he thought about giving money away, he was instantly put back into that mindset of being that young kid who's
00:20:25
Speaker
praying in the backseat of his dad's pickup as he's driving, you know, 100 miles an hour drunk down the highway. Right. Like it like our money attachments run so deep and they go places that most people have no idea about.
00:20:40
Speaker
Wow. And you're going there with your clients. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's deep. That's really deep. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Conclusion and Teaser
00:20:51
Speaker
That wraps part one of our conversation with Courtney Markley. In the next episode, we'll unpack powerful donor stories and learn how unresolved trauma can prevent generosity, even when the desire to give is strong. Join us for part two.
00:21:05
Speaker
And don't forget to subscribe and leave a review if this episode resonated with you. I'm your host, Tom Dobrik. Thank you for joining me as we journey together towards major gift mastery on the Abundant Vision Fundraising Podcast.