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Leslie Chats with Cecile Maisonneuve on Europe, Nuclear & the New Geopolitics of Electricity
87 Plays1 month ago
In this new episode of the Energy Vista podcast, host Leslie Palti-Guzman sits down with Cécile Maisonneuve to explore the reenergized role of #nuclear power in #Europe—and what it reveals about broader shifts in #energy, #sovereignty, and #industrial strategy.
Together, they unpack:
- Why nuclear energy is back in vogue in Europe after years of political pushback
- The role of nuclear in France’s industrial and #digital future—including energy for #AI and #data centers
- How #Russia is using nuclear exports as a geopolitical tool, from financing to reactor deployment
- Why nuclear and natural #gas could compete in some jurisdictions
- SMRs (Small Modular Reactors): innovation vs. proliferation and security risks
- Is there now a “transatlantic” nuclear strategy in the making?
📍 A sharp conversation on how nuclear policy reflects Europe’s deeper struggle with reindustrialization, decarbonization, and global power politics.
🎙️ Recorded in French, available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and all major platforms.
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Transcript
Introduction to Energy Vista and European Energy Issues
00:00:08
lpaltiguzman
Welcome to Energy Vista, a podcast on energy issues, personal and professional trajectories. a podcast where we make experts great again, and we contribute actively to the public debate and policymaking around commodities, the geopolitics of energy and trade.
00:00:19
Cécile Maisonneuve
you
00:00:27
lpaltiguzman
I'm your host, Leslie Palti-Guzman, and time for a new episode. It's October 23, 2025, and I'm going to discuss um timely topics around the competitiveness of Europe and around its electricity, industry, technology,
00:00:46
lpaltiguzman
and nuclear potentially as a way to um solve some of those issues. First, my tech.
The Nuclear Renaissance: US and Europe Policy Shift
00:00:53
lpaltiguzman
um Pushing nuclear issues and nuclear as a core policy is a choice that we see back in fashion, both in the US and in Europe.
00:01:04
lpaltiguzman
It might be a bit too early to talk about nuclear renaissance, and but we might get there in the long term. um So why is it a topic both in the US and in Europe? And actually it's a it's it's for different reasons. We see different motivations on both sides of the Atlantic.
00:01:22
lpaltiguzman
In the US, the momentum stems largely from the search surge in electricity demand, fueled by the exponential growth of data centers, also the race, the AI race with China.
00:01:37
lpaltiguzman
And the U.S. needs an affordable, scalable base load supply um that will be greener in the longer term than natural gas, for example.
Europe's Energy Autonomy Post-Ukraine Conflict
00:01:49
lpaltiguzman
While in Europe, we see that electricity demand has not increased yet and has been actually declining over the past few years. But following the and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we saw big energy shocks in Europe and the need to um to bring more autonomy and sovereignty into Europe and nuclear couldn be a way to to could be a solution.
00:02:17
lpaltiguzman
um Also, and it's being raised right now to guarantee more competitiveness into Europe. So it's a very fascinating topic those um at the intersection of electricity demand,
00:02:31
lpaltiguzman
technology, geoeconomics, and I'm very pleased today um to receive Cécile Maisonneuve as our guest. um She is a well-known expert in Europe.
00:02:44
lpaltiguzman
She is the founder of Decisive. um She also writes a chronique for The Express and is an advisor also to IFRI, the French think tank. Hi, Cécile.
00:02:54
Cécile Maisonneuve
Hi Leslie, thanks for having me.
00:02:57
lpaltiguzman
Thanks for joining the podcast. um So you heard a little bit the introduction. We're going to go into more in-depth on all those topics. um Right now, um Europe is is, I feel, at a crossroad where um we hear increasingly more some pragmatic voices.
00:03:18
lpaltiguzman
um And not a long time ah ago, um nuclear didn't really have... um the attention that it may deserve.
00:03:29
lpaltiguzman
ah It was actually rejected by policymakers and socially also after the Fukushima disaster. We saw a country like Germany phasing out its nuclear.
Reevaluation of Nuclear Energy in Europe
00:03:41
lpaltiguzman
So several European countries had kind of turned the page on nuclear.
00:03:46
lpaltiguzman
But now we see um um ah change of situations. um So why now? So actually, we wanted to do this podcast in French. Je vais changer maintenant et on continue en français.
00:04:01
lpaltiguzman
Mais pourquoi maintenant ce retournement situation en Europe par rapport nucléaire?
00:04:14
Cécile Maisonneuve
check, in French.
00:04:34
Cécile Maisonneuve
and so which has induced this shock, this shock, at the same time energy security, so this is passed, but today we are in a shock energy competitiveness with an Europe which has price electricity and gas 2 to 5 times higher than its competitors, the United States but also the China, it is not to forget.
00:04:49
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:04:52
Cécile Maisonneuve
do them go check ah thelte see situation on naman yeah ah key bo no to The for of Angela Merkel.
00:05:12
Cécile Maisonneuve
And everyone understands today, due to the energy and industry situation of Germany, that this model is dead. And then for me, there is third reality check, which was recently the blackout in Spain.
00:05:24
Cécile Maisonneuve
We haven't yet had the the the of nuclear nuclear.
Nuclear Energy's Role in European Electricity
00:05:45
Cécile Maisonneuve
I would say simply, we don't forget, that the first source electricity in Europe has been in the past, and it's always the case today, and it was always the case even when there were problems on the nuclear market, it's the nuclear energy.
00:06:06
lpaltiguzman
Are these environmentalists green on the hub so manon kuva cuculoucle itos in
00:06:20
lpaltiguzman
but the company is and
00:06:22
Cécile Maisonneuve
but In the you of
00:06:43
Cécile Maisonneuve
Texas, California, etc. But what we are in is
00:07:13
Cécile Maisonneuve
lu systemte ah nualmoina retique mil systemte electricober ro comp ne purran nachi you point a trick on your rock to own a but problem sit to said se the of So
00:07:41
Cécile Maisonneuve
Today it's really a debate of society, debate politics. We have even governments who fall because of the issues of energy and electricity. think government norway has been there a few
00:07:51
lpaltiguzman
It's very interesting because you're talking about the electricity demand, not just for power generation, also for the industry. And I think that themon electricity in as we see currently in the United States.
00:08:12
lpaltiguzman
In the the demand for data centers, for the crypto, for data centers.
00:08:30
lpaltiguzman
And this demand will maybe one day appear in Europe.
Electricity Demand: Europe vs. US
00:08:37
lpaltiguzman
I think Mario Draghi mentioned a it the
00:08:58
Cécile Maisonneuve
I think it's important, and thank you for making the debate, on the real demand. Yes, it's true, to avoid the
00:09:27
Cécile Maisonneuve
for the energy supply, while the United States are independent. Today, this divergence is also on the don't markets.
00:09:47
Cécile Maisonneuve
la demande n'explosait pas.
00:10:00
Cécile Maisonneuve
Et bon, même si ce n'est pas les augmentations exponentielles qu'on prévoit, c'est parti. Tandis qu'en Europe, non seulement ça n'augmente pas, mais ça régresse.
00:10:08
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:10:08
Cécile Maisonneuve
Et là, on a un vrai, vrai problème parce que la baisse de
00:10:30
Cécile Maisonneuve
It's one, carbonate the electricity, because it's global, it's the fer. And two, to extend the electricity usage to other things that to clear, like to be replaced, to heat up, or industrial processes. And we are not.
00:10:47
Cécile Maisonneuve
ela on the up um you bought
00:10:58
lpaltiguzman
energy efficiency how to use less electricity, less air conditioning in the apartments, etc.
00:11:08
Cécile Maisonneuve
C'est là que je trouve que ce discours est très dangereux. Quand on cotona ball subitating shaba mar had honouro later yeah and themo tabi taal what with did jokexine solution need aela your person thatak um ba with a de ah of it This idea that, more on the expense of electricity, it is completely orthogonal to the transition energy.
00:11:36
Cécile Maisonneuve
So, maybe we and electric motor, but all what is happening from industry.
00:11:50
Cécile Maisonneuve
ah scale on trying to do do superity department we do not just or what should happen from the industry. When look at countries very advanced in their transition, take an example of the
00:12:12
Cécile Maisonneuve
lo lamobbiity tail it trick what you really like pick a deep ona e but more and i won v to but lu moquila right if he gets of itnaistfi say assume The the And or the digital industry, it's this which will push the consumption of electricity. moment in Europe, we don't see it at all.
00:12:41
Cécile Maisonneuve
on the up wepa you to the new or up
00:12:44
lpaltiguzman
And the armament, then? and lo mamondo said don so context pasque yp ah monro de luutton umme The GDP and industry.
00:13:06
lpaltiguzman
said ahug mont eion the de monpo electricity don justrique here Hmm.
00:13:12
Cécile Maisonneuve
Of course.
Eastern Europe's Defense and Energy Impact
00:13:13
Cécile Maisonneuve
It's very interesting what we're seeing today in Europe. In the part East Europe, what you're saying is the need to quickly increase the effort of defense to be able to defend, it's a no-brainer.
00:13:27
Cécile Maisonneuve
To say something else, we're preparing for war in the East Europe. And it translates, for example, to I a industry that works for the military.
00:13:45
Cécile Maisonneuve
This movement is the entire European continent who has adopted it.
00:13:54
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:14:08
Cécile Maisonneuve
In in and lure ra fue as an energy issue or absolutely non-compétitives.
00:14:31
Cécile Maisonneuve
So is it at the moment where it is,
00:14:45
Cécile Maisonneuve
no, absolutely
00:14:56
Cécile Maisonneuve
It's also for the nuclear, for the nuclear nuclear, it's not to forget that.
00:14:57
lpaltiguzman
Yes, it's the two. The two. The heat and electricity demand.
00:15:01
lpaltiguzman
wait right nomi mo adu a la scher is a lamon electricity
00:15:21
Cécile Maisonneuve
for the purchase of suédois avions, the combat, the Gripen. When we go to this part of Europe, on you talk of, in fact, when we talk about energy, On parle tout suite de chaleur.
00:15:31
Cécile Maisonneuve
Là où, par exemple, en France, on a un réflexe absolu de parler d'électricité.
00:15:32
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:15:47
lpaltiguzman
talked about France regarding the armament. Is France the of
00:16:04
Cécile Maisonneuve
It's true that in France, we know a situation massive capacity because
00:16:22
Cécile Maisonneuve
It was, of course, the idea of the summit on the tech and the or groups like the of course put profit do set to electricity for but but rache abunddo a piala pi cue simian s solaan poal contoal andmerrei the the computer anaternitono la provisiano
00:16:55
Cécile Maisonneuve
is can the resolve federal parroliated lugainst youma se you sat down three numerics at noweland just three years in noval le twenty or sydney union yeah ma mado ima like lasyli twentyanto si traditionalary sector and australia vs coorin lu are was se like metamark food el street traditional el va soe garalah this point v are
00:17:16
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Transatlantic Nuclear Cooperation
00:17:17
Cécile Maisonneuve
For me, there is a triptyque, electrification, industrialization through the armament, and And this has a
00:17:37
lpaltiguzman
So, the United States, there are lot of political support in this moment, President Trump or the Minister Energy, Chris Wright, for the in the small reactors.
00:18:04
lpaltiguzman
I have the impression that in in and
00:18:36
lpaltiguzman
a transatlantic strategy, because we are a kind of a period of economic economic period where United States compton on some allies are capable.
00:18:50
lpaltiguzman
it's rebuilding alliances with partners, which we trust and something the table. Do you the
00:19:04
Cécile Maisonneuve
Right.
00:19:15
Cécile Maisonneuve
Well, not only I see, but in fact, think it's the only possibility. In the the nuclear nuclear nuclear.
00:19:41
Cécile Maisonneuve
<unk>el France, the United States, or any country in the world occidental, if we don't have union. That's the first point.
00:19:48
lpaltiguzman
umrela shizposky So,
00:19:48
Cécile Maisonneuve
ju
00:19:53
Cécile Maisonneuve
If you look at what was branching in 2025, it will be same thing in 2026. Almost everything happens in China. It's to say that China is on a rhythm four or five reactors per year.
00:20:08
Cécile Maisonneuve
It was the nuclear technology.
00:20:23
Cécile Maisonneuve
It's a that electricity.
00:20:38
lpaltiguzman
right Yes.
00:20:41
Cécile Maisonneuve
is is it possible
00:20:41
lpaltiguzman
Dominante et en contrôle.
00:20:45
Cécile Maisonneuve
in control, in control, the nuclear export is Russia.
00:21:05
Cécile Maisonneuve
do
00:21:05
lpaltiguzman
And followed by the South Korea?
00:21:06
Cécile Maisonneuve
look
00:21:08
Cécile Maisonneuve
Russia, followed by... The Korea has achieved a very beautiful
00:21:24
Cécile Maisonneuve
She just finished coup of m in Europe, that made effect of a shock in the Czech Republic. So, it's a
00:21:36
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:21:39
Cécile Maisonneuve
But precisely, the agreement between the Korean KHNP and Westinghouse, the construction which has built a
00:21:59
Cécile Maisonneuve
It means that there is a agreement between those who want to do nuclear, it's the case of the and of technology, to us it's globalement our case.
00:22:06
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:22:11
Cécile Maisonneuve
And in fact, the a long history of partnership. there have been countries who have said I do of it's a part of a partnership
00:22:15
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:22:19
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:22:24
lpaltiguzman
ah preish shak petroli
00:22:26
Cécile Maisonneuve
with, well, since 1958, De to in the 1960s, the partners between France, Belgium, the Spanish Spanish, that, we exercise do nuclear together and with the Americans. This story, I think it's necessary to open the chapter.
00:22:49
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm. Right.
00:22:49
Cécile Maisonneuve
In certain way, we don't have the choice, if we want be serious, if we want to do nuclear. And what's happening in this moment, a cpro quo don't not on networkion tv case compar copy it source in nuclear era leron the nuclear did test pallyton insulting nuclear task a savoki see but but per selutokin se superpa signal i need the la onna cook becauseza part si like lost flamoville siicalitors in no vogel sila uquiutto and final denoe is sa si pafe as same malfini donco joioni la laistrate trere priot miufete group me like la comaantto skipa viorri group as youve felt where lefthar where advocate kids and some cons So the the the we
00:23:30
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:23:46
Cécile Maisonneuve
a strategy to a place to what is really an ultra-dominated chain.
00:23:48
lpaltiguzman
hu
00:24:02
lpaltiguzman
monque saintportton la said copiojaen transelan chique you see az juil like go ahead you see theotre partna her so youco ti de oidanto um u poor for her porivalit teio economic mei for teachers I and
00:24:18
Cécile Maisonneuve
The Japan, by the way, on the site.
00:24:26
lpaltiguzman
And just the small small small reactors, ah that has lot of advantages, but an inconvenience could also be having kind of chain less centralized, less concentrated, more subject to proliferate, in terms of safety, to have less control uranium, etc...............................
00:24:49
Cécile Maisonneuve
and know luship where else like sha personop muja and youri name ja butra epe de raju The that and no
00:25:12
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:25:13
Cécile Maisonneuve
The Traité de Non-Collifération is of the rare traités who survive and not attacked by the multilateralism. It dates from 1968. It is quasi-universel, except those countries who have always decided to not enter and who have developed their own nuclear arms.
00:25:30
Cécile Maisonneuve
But it is very important because it is the moment to be able to do the comptes. the example like possiblysly bechino to suffer failure your nuclear guilt fromand of
00:25:43
Cécile Maisonneuve
I will answer your question later on the ASMR.
00:25:44
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:25:46
Cécile Maisonneuve
Because if we
00:25:46
lpaltiguzman
i
00:25:56
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:26:02
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:26:02
Cécile Maisonneuve
Is it what we want to do? Not at all. So the those who have the power of negotiation, of the competencies to regulate this system.
00:26:28
lpaltiguzman
Officiellement, oui.
00:26:31
Cécile Maisonneuve
they must absolutely facilitate the nuclear commerce and civil nuclear. from this point of view, the Russia and China will nuclear technologies to the Sud which need to develop,
00:26:46
Cécile Maisonneuve
but to nu the United States, France, and
00:26:56
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
Challenges to Russia's Nuclear Financing Model
00:27:03
Cécile Maisonneuve
i long
00:27:03
lpaltiguzman
And I think Russia, it seems like it's with Turkey, but they decided to pay 80% of the cost of the reactor.
00:27:08
lpaltiguzman
Yeah. ah
00:27:10
Cécile Maisonneuve
Alors, c'est le modèle, la Russie développé un modèle très efficace, alors dont l'immense force est devenue une immense faiblesse et qu'il a été financé par la rente pétro-gazière.
00:27:12
lpaltiguzman
reactor
00:27:19
lpaltiguzman
ah
00:27:20
Cécile Maisonneuve
In the current context, it's not the best. Effectivement, whether in Egypt, Turkey, Iran, the Russian model is almost to arrive with a system build, operate, finance.
00:27:33
Cécile Maisonneuve
It's quite opaque, let's say clearly, the Russian model is that.
00:27:41
Cécile Maisonneuve
It is obvious that a nuclear contract attached the countries for very long time. So it is absolutely clear for the countries occidentals to be interested in the nuclear demand of a certain number of countries. On the question of the ASMR,
00:27:59
Cécile Maisonneuve
Well, at the we on provacoscarpu module or them the
00:28:12
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:28:17
Cécile Maisonneuve
ubi belong the deportto de project, citard lo perrata may see discover of wealth can the see the so less risk of proliferation.
00:28:43
lpaltiguzman
But in Russia, we're talking about...
00:28:46
Cécile Maisonneuve
Mais il est évident ça impliquera aussi de revoir
00:29:03
lpaltiguzman
In Russia, they even spoke to use it more in nuclear aircraft, even in a more strong use for ships. They even spoke propel aircraft that would transport the
00:29:16
lpaltiguzman
ah he on o pali poor um popule and sumaa nuclear kitrano he eugenel um i ah
00:29:26
Cécile Maisonneuve
Oui, la
00:29:31
lpaltiguzman
but Icebreaker, they already use... Yes.
00:29:33
Cécile Maisonneuve
They also have systems of barge where they put a little reactor.
00:29:33
lpaltiguzman
anyway
00:29:39
Cécile Maisonneuve
They can serve to deliver electricity places where it is not necessary to serve by the network.
00:29:47
lpaltiguzman
right yeah
00:29:49
Cécile Maisonneuve
So it's really the most advanced traditionally on the SMR. The China is very fast too. Because the SMR is a... I mean, it's d see in concept who comes directly from the military military.
00:30:07
Cécile Maisonneuve
The father the United States is the Admiral Rickover, so it comes from the Navy, the Marines, and it's why the countries in which the separation between the military military and the civil nuclear nuclear n'a never been totally net, are quite at ease to block that.
00:30:08
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:30:19
lpaltiguzman
it's
00:30:24
Cécile Maisonneuve
which is necessarily the case of France, for example, where France has never been big influence in the French system, traditionally on the small reactors. Also, because it reminds the origins of the nuclear nuclear industry, which the industry doesn't like.
00:30:40
Cécile Maisonneuve
So there is also a cultural dimension in the SMR.
00:30:45
lpaltiguzman
Very interesting. Well, we've done a tour of the
00:30:56
lpaltiguzman
Allons-y. So you're very well placed to also engage Europe in the public debate. And you've contributed to several thinking groups, think tanks, publications.
00:31:13
lpaltiguzman
Where do you think the in Europe?
Aligning European Energy Policy with Reality
00:31:20
lpaltiguzman
Is it a healthy one? this's get youruia please Do verio this pre you well-thinking?
00:31:28
lpaltiguzman
less of
00:31:45
Cécile Maisonneuve
Effectivement, on sort d'une période où on a fait quand même beaucoup d'énergie, powerpoint, etc. where in general, we had ideas, a vision that had very little links with reality.
00:32:02
Cécile Maisonneuve
And there, it's
00:32:18
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:32:22
Cécile Maisonneuve
So it's in this phase that we are today in Europe. er ludebachireta work po moe in e duble in e ducomp po yapa that good take on The a big sense since these two subjects transverse.
00:32:48
Cécile Maisonneuve
What's interesting today is to commercial politics.
00:32:54
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:33:03
Cécile Maisonneuve
to
00:33:30
Cécile Maisonneuve
to break with this logic.
00:33:43
Cécile Maisonneuve
And again, once again, the events are going push.
00:33:46
lpaltiguzman
Right.
00:33:47
Cécile Maisonneuve
We can't dissociate the the subject of the industry, the subject of numeral. Today, it's really a...
00:33:58
Cécile Maisonneuve
a mises en musique cohérente qu'il faut faire entre ces thèmes.
00:34:06
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:34:11
Cécile Maisonneuve
national.
00:34:12
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm.
00:34:22
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:34:24
Cécile Maisonneuve
But Europe also has an interest to defend. And again, I think that what is susceptible to happen in the growth of the Russian threat will be more aware of the more and more aware of it.
00:34:41
lpaltiguzman
All the two, we recently looked at European policies sustainability, emissions, whether for her methane reduction the corporate ah sustainability and diligence um regulation
00:35:00
Cécile Maisonneuve
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:35:07
lpaltiguzman
or from big companies or from export to Europe, such as the United States and Qatar, and who try to reduce the extraordinary power of these regulations.
00:35:26
lpaltiguzman
you think that Europe should be good and be strong?
00:35:33
lpaltiguzman
ecomp or the position from much moscow you have produced the flexibility on certain deregguulation like um whatever so pragmatism and podcast.
Europe's Pragmatic Energy Future and Peaceful World Creation
00:35:46
lpaltiguzman
But at the
00:36:01
lpaltiguzman
<unk>asse
00:36:03
Cécile Maisonneuve
In fact, for Europe, it's really a crucial moment because all the DNA of Europe, it So create a more pacific world.
00:36:14
lpaltiguzman
Hmm.
00:36:36
Cécile Maisonneuve
peace through strength.
00:36:48
Cécile Maisonneuve
yeah know lu ah la momon we sell ah connaconu r gpedi we already tra share The and everyone was plied,
00:37:00
Cécile Maisonneuve
This moment is finished and there will be no moment in Brussels on climate. The lead by example dead, but in addition to example, so rather a contre-exemple.
00:37:12
Cécile Maisonneuve
lu shposki for po just So to that we need to it means that we need to everything around the table and say, well, how do again,
00:37:26
Cécile Maisonneuve
where I put the a and manifestement, j'ai un problème.
00:37:50
Cécile Maisonneuve
Et le discours très théorique consistant à dire « Oui, il faut sortir des énergies fossiles, comme on n'aura plus de problème », ne règle absolument rien parce qu'on me démontre that Europe can be done in the to
00:38:18
Cécile Maisonneuve
lu for if we qui um There is a different things that we want and what we can do.
00:38:20
lpaltiguzman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:38:24
Cécile Maisonneuve
Today, the the the
00:38:44
lpaltiguzman
Thank you very much Cécile for this the
00:39:11
Cécile Maisonneuve
Thank you, the on which we have some ideas preconceived, which are still far from real.
00:39:22
lpaltiguzman
Merci.
00:39:30
lpaltiguzman
This episode was recorded on October 24, 2025. This is Leslie Baltic Guzman saying good day and good luck.