Transcript
lpaltiguzman: Welcome to Energy Vista, a podcast on energy issues, personal and professional trajectories. a podcast where we make experts great again, and we contribute actively to the public debate and policymaking around commodities, the geopolitics of energy and trade.
Cécile Maisonneuve: you
lpaltiguzman: I'm your host, Leslie Palti-Guzman, and time for a new episode. It's October 23, 2025, and I'm going to discuss um timely topics around the competitiveness of Europe and around its electricity, industry, technology,
lpaltiguzman: and nuclear potentially as a way to um solve some of those issues. First, my tech. um Pushing nuclear issues and nuclear as a core policy is a choice that we see back in fashion, both in the US and in Europe.
lpaltiguzman: It might be a bit too early to talk about nuclear renaissance, and but we might get there in the long term. um So why is it a topic both in the US and in Europe? And actually it's a it's it's for different reasons. We see different motivations on both sides of the Atlantic.
lpaltiguzman: In the US, the momentum stems largely from the search surge in electricity demand, fueled by the exponential growth of data centers, also the race, the AI race with China.
lpaltiguzman: And the U.S. needs an affordable, scalable base load supply um that will be greener in the longer term than natural gas, for example.
lpaltiguzman: While in Europe, we see that electricity demand has not increased yet and has been actually declining over the past few years. But following the and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we saw big energy shocks in Europe and the need to um to bring more autonomy and sovereignty into Europe and nuclear couldn be a way to to could be a solution.
lpaltiguzman: um Also, and it's being raised right now to guarantee more competitiveness into Europe. So it's a very fascinating topic those um at the intersection of electricity demand,
lpaltiguzman: technology, geoeconomics, and I'm very pleased today um to receive Cécile Maisonneuve as our guest. um She is a well-known expert in Europe.
lpaltiguzman: She is the founder of Decisive. um She also writes a chronique for The Express and is an advisor also to IFRI, the French think tank. Hi, Cécile.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Hi Leslie, thanks for having me.
lpaltiguzman: Thanks for joining the podcast. um So you heard a little bit the introduction. We're going to go into more in-depth on all those topics. um Right now, um Europe is is, I feel, at a crossroad where um we hear increasingly more some pragmatic voices.
lpaltiguzman: um And not a long time ah ago, um nuclear didn't really have... um the attention that it may deserve.
lpaltiguzman: ah It was actually rejected by policymakers and socially also after the Fukushima disaster. We saw a country like Germany phasing out its nuclear. So several European countries had kind of turned the page on nuclear.
lpaltiguzman: But now we see um um ah change of situations. um So why now? So actually, we wanted to do this podcast in French. Je vais changer maintenant et on continue en français.
lpaltiguzman: Mais pourquoi maintenant ce retournement situation en Europe par rapport nucléaire?
Cécile Maisonneuve: check, in French.
Cécile Maisonneuve: and so which has induced this shock, this shock, at the same time energy security, so this is passed, but today we are in a shock energy competitiveness with an Europe which has price electricity and gas 2 to 5 times higher than its competitors, the United States but also the China, it is not to forget.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: do them go check ah thelte see situation on naman yeah ah key bo no to The for of Angela Merkel.
Cécile Maisonneuve: And everyone understands today, due to the energy and industry situation of Germany, that this model is dead. And then for me, there is third reality check, which was recently the blackout in Spain.
Cécile Maisonneuve: We haven't yet had the the the of nuclear nuclear.
Cécile Maisonneuve: I would say simply, we don't forget, that the first source electricity in Europe has been in the past, and it's always the case today, and it was always the case even when there were problems on the nuclear market, it's the nuclear energy.
lpaltiguzman: Are these environmentalists green on the hub so manon kuva cuculoucle itos in
lpaltiguzman: but the company is and
Cécile Maisonneuve: but In the you of
Cécile Maisonneuve: Texas, California, etc. But what we are in is
Cécile Maisonneuve: lu systemte ah nualmoina retique mil systemte electricober ro comp ne purran nachi you point a trick on your rock to own a but problem sit to said se the of So
Cécile Maisonneuve: Today it's really a debate of society, debate politics. We have even governments who fall because of the issues of energy and electricity. think government norway has been there a few
lpaltiguzman: It's very interesting because you're talking about the electricity demand, not just for power generation, also for the industry. And I think that themon electricity in as we see currently in the United States.
lpaltiguzman: In the the demand for data centers, for the crypto, for data centers.
lpaltiguzman: And this demand will maybe one day appear in Europe. I think Mario Draghi mentioned a it the
Cécile Maisonneuve: I think it's important, and thank you for making the debate, on the real demand. Yes, it's true, to avoid the
Cécile Maisonneuve: for the energy supply, while the United States are independent. Today, this divergence is also on the don't markets.
Cécile Maisonneuve: la demande n'explosait pas.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Et bon, même si ce n'est pas les augmentations exponentielles qu'on prévoit, c'est parti. Tandis qu'en Europe, non seulement ça n'augmente pas, mais ça régresse.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Et là, on a un vrai, vrai problème parce que la baisse de
Cécile Maisonneuve: It's one, carbonate the electricity, because it's global, it's the fer. And two, to extend the electricity usage to other things that to clear, like to be replaced, to heat up, or industrial processes. And we are not.
Cécile Maisonneuve: ela on the up um you bought
lpaltiguzman: energy efficiency how to use less electricity, less air conditioning in the apartments, etc.
Cécile Maisonneuve: C'est là que je trouve que ce discours est très dangereux. Quand on cotona ball subitating shaba mar had honouro later yeah and themo tabi taal what with did jokexine solution need aela your person thatak um ba with a de ah of it This idea that, more on the expense of electricity, it is completely orthogonal to the transition energy.
Cécile Maisonneuve: So, maybe we and electric motor, but all what is happening from industry.
Cécile Maisonneuve: ah scale on trying to do do superity department we do not just or what should happen from the industry. When look at countries very advanced in their transition, take an example of the
Cécile Maisonneuve: lo lamobbiity tail it trick what you really like pick a deep ona e but more and i won v to but lu moquila right if he gets of itnaistfi say assume The the And or the digital industry, it's this which will push the consumption of electricity. moment in Europe, we don't see it at all.
Cécile Maisonneuve: on the up wepa you to the new or up
lpaltiguzman: And the armament, then? and lo mamondo said don so context pasque yp ah monro de luutton umme The GDP and industry.
lpaltiguzman: said ahug mont eion the de monpo electricity don justrique here Hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Of course. It's very interesting what we're seeing today in Europe. In the part East Europe, what you're saying is the need to quickly increase the effort of defense to be able to defend, it's a no-brainer.
Cécile Maisonneuve: To say something else, we're preparing for war in the East Europe. And it translates, for example, to I a industry that works for the military.
Cécile Maisonneuve: This movement is the entire European continent who has adopted it.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: In in and lure ra fue as an energy issue or absolutely non-compétitives.
Cécile Maisonneuve: So is it at the moment where it is,
Cécile Maisonneuve: no, absolutely
Cécile Maisonneuve: It's also for the nuclear, for the nuclear nuclear, it's not to forget that.
lpaltiguzman: Yes, it's the two. The two. The heat and electricity demand.
lpaltiguzman: wait right nomi mo adu a la scher is a lamon electricity
Cécile Maisonneuve: for the purchase of suédois avions, the combat, the Gripen. When we go to this part of Europe, on you talk of, in fact, when we talk about energy, On parle tout suite de chaleur.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Là où, par exemple, en France, on a un réflexe absolu de parler d'électricité.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
lpaltiguzman: talked about France regarding the armament. Is France the of
Cécile Maisonneuve: It's true that in France, we know a situation massive capacity because
Cécile Maisonneuve: It was, of course, the idea of the summit on the tech and the or groups like the of course put profit do set to electricity for but but rache abunddo a piala pi cue simian s solaan poal contoal andmerrei the the computer anaternitono la provisiano
Cécile Maisonneuve: is can the resolve federal parroliated lugainst youma se you sat down three numerics at noweland just three years in noval le twenty or sydney union yeah ma mado ima like lasyli twentyanto si traditionalary sector and australia vs coorin lu are was se like metamark food el street traditional el va soe garalah this point v are
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: For me, there is a triptyque, electrification, industrialization through the armament, and And this has a
lpaltiguzman: So, the United States, there are lot of political support in this moment, President Trump or the Minister Energy, Chris Wright, for the in the small reactors.
lpaltiguzman: I have the impression that in in and
lpaltiguzman: a transatlantic strategy, because we are a kind of a period of economic economic period where United States compton on some allies are capable.
lpaltiguzman: it's rebuilding alliances with partners, which we trust and something the table. Do you the
Cécile Maisonneuve: Right.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Well, not only I see, but in fact, think it's the only possibility. In the the nuclear nuclear nuclear.
Cécile Maisonneuve: <unk>el France, the United States, or any country in the world occidental, if we don't have union. That's the first point.
lpaltiguzman: umrela shizposky So,
Cécile Maisonneuve: ju
Cécile Maisonneuve: If you look at what was branching in 2025, it will be same thing in 2026. Almost everything happens in China. It's to say that China is on a rhythm four or five reactors per year.
Cécile Maisonneuve: It was the nuclear technology.
Cécile Maisonneuve: It's a that electricity.
lpaltiguzman: right Yes.
Cécile Maisonneuve: is is it possible
lpaltiguzman: Dominante et en contrôle.
Cécile Maisonneuve: in control, in control, the nuclear export is Russia.
Cécile Maisonneuve: do
lpaltiguzman: And followed by the South Korea?
Cécile Maisonneuve: look
Cécile Maisonneuve: Russia, followed by... The Korea has achieved a very beautiful
Cécile Maisonneuve: She just finished coup of m in Europe, that made effect of a shock in the Czech Republic. So, it's a
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: But precisely, the agreement between the Korean KHNP and Westinghouse, the construction which has built a
Cécile Maisonneuve: It means that there is a agreement between those who want to do nuclear, it's the case of the and of technology, to us it's globalement our case.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: And in fact, the a long history of partnership. there have been countries who have said I do of it's a part of a partnership
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
lpaltiguzman: ah preish shak petroli
Cécile Maisonneuve: with, well, since 1958, De to in the 1960s, the partners between France, Belgium, the Spanish Spanish, that, we exercise do nuclear together and with the Americans. This story, I think it's necessary to open the chapter.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm. Right.
Cécile Maisonneuve: In certain way, we don't have the choice, if we want be serious, if we want to do nuclear. And what's happening in this moment, a cpro quo don't not on networkion tv case compar copy it source in nuclear era leron the nuclear did test pallyton insulting nuclear task a savoki see but but per selutokin se superpa signal i need the la onna cook becauseza part si like lost flamoville siicalitors in no vogel sila uquiutto and final denoe is sa si pafe as same malfini donco joioni la laistrate trere priot miufete group me like la comaantto skipa viorri group as youve felt where lefthar where advocate kids and some cons So the the the we
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: a strategy to a place to what is really an ultra-dominated chain.
lpaltiguzman: hu
lpaltiguzman: monque saintportton la said copiojaen transelan chique you see az juil like go ahead you see theotre partna her so youco ti de oidanto um u poor for her porivalit teio economic mei for teachers I and
Cécile Maisonneuve: The Japan, by the way, on the site.
lpaltiguzman: And just the small small small reactors, ah that has lot of advantages, but an inconvenience could also be having kind of chain less centralized, less concentrated, more subject to proliferate, in terms of safety, to have less control uranium, etc...............................
Cécile Maisonneuve: and know luship where else like sha personop muja and youri name ja butra epe de raju The that and no
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: The Traité de Non-Collifération is of the rare traités who survive and not attacked by the multilateralism. It dates from 1968. It is quasi-universel, except those countries who have always decided to not enter and who have developed their own nuclear arms.
Cécile Maisonneuve: But it is very important because it is the moment to be able to do the comptes. the example like possiblysly bechino to suffer failure your nuclear guilt fromand of
Cécile Maisonneuve: I will answer your question later on the ASMR.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Because if we
lpaltiguzman: i
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Is it what we want to do? Not at all. So the those who have the power of negotiation, of the competencies to regulate this system.
lpaltiguzman: Officiellement, oui.
Cécile Maisonneuve: they must absolutely facilitate the nuclear commerce and civil nuclear. from this point of view, the Russia and China will nuclear technologies to the Sud which need to develop,
Cécile Maisonneuve: but to nu the United States, France, and
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
lpaltiguzman: And I think Russia, it seems like it's with Turkey, but they decided to pay 80% of the cost of the reactor.
Cécile Maisonneuve: i long
lpaltiguzman: Yeah. ah
Cécile Maisonneuve: Alors, c'est le modèle, la Russie développé un modèle très efficace, alors dont l'immense force est devenue une immense faiblesse et qu'il a été financé par la rente pétro-gazière.
lpaltiguzman: reactor
lpaltiguzman: ah
Cécile Maisonneuve: In the current context, it's not the best. Effectivement, whether in Egypt, Turkey, Iran, the Russian model is almost to arrive with a system build, operate, finance.
Cécile Maisonneuve: It's quite opaque, let's say clearly, the Russian model is that.
Cécile Maisonneuve: It is obvious that a nuclear contract attached the countries for very long time. So it is absolutely clear for the countries occidentals to be interested in the nuclear demand of a certain number of countries. On the question of the ASMR,
Cécile Maisonneuve: Well, at the we on provacoscarpu module or them the
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: ubi belong the deportto de project, citard lo perrata may see discover of wealth can the see the so less risk of proliferation.
lpaltiguzman: But in Russia, we're talking about...
Cécile Maisonneuve: Mais il est évident ça impliquera aussi de revoir
lpaltiguzman: In Russia, they even spoke to use it more in nuclear aircraft, even in a more strong use for ships. They even spoke propel aircraft that would transport the
lpaltiguzman: ah he on o pali poor um popule and sumaa nuclear kitrano he eugenel um i ah
Cécile Maisonneuve: Oui, la
lpaltiguzman: but Icebreaker, they already use... Yes.
Cécile Maisonneuve: They also have systems of barge where they put a little reactor.
lpaltiguzman: anyway
Cécile Maisonneuve: They can serve to deliver electricity places where it is not necessary to serve by the network.
lpaltiguzman: right yeah
Cécile Maisonneuve: So it's really the most advanced traditionally on the SMR. The China is very fast too. Because the SMR is a... I mean, it's d see in concept who comes directly from the military military.
Cécile Maisonneuve: The father the United States is the Admiral Rickover, so it comes from the Navy, the Marines, and it's why the countries in which the separation between the military military and the civil nuclear nuclear n'a never been totally net, are quite at ease to block that.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
lpaltiguzman: it's
Cécile Maisonneuve: which is necessarily the case of France, for example, where France has never been big influence in the French system, traditionally on the small reactors. Also, because it reminds the origins of the nuclear nuclear industry, which the industry doesn't like.
Cécile Maisonneuve: So there is also a cultural dimension in the SMR.
lpaltiguzman: Very interesting. Well, we've done a tour of the
lpaltiguzman: Allons-y. So you're very well placed to also engage Europe in the public debate. And you've contributed to several thinking groups, think tanks, publications.
lpaltiguzman: Where do you think the in Europe? Is it a healthy one? this's get youruia please Do verio this pre you well-thinking?
lpaltiguzman: less of
Cécile Maisonneuve: Effectivement, on sort d'une période où on a fait quand même beaucoup d'énergie, powerpoint, etc. where in general, we had ideas, a vision that had very little links with reality.
Cécile Maisonneuve: And there, it's
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: So it's in this phase that we are today in Europe. er ludebachireta work po moe in e duble in e ducomp po yapa that good take on The a big sense since these two subjects transverse.
Cécile Maisonneuve: What's interesting today is to commercial politics.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: to
Cécile Maisonneuve: to break with this logic.
Cécile Maisonneuve: And again, once again, the events are going push.
lpaltiguzman: Right.
Cécile Maisonneuve: We can't dissociate the the subject of the industry, the subject of numeral. Today, it's really a...
Cécile Maisonneuve: a mises en musique cohérente qu'il faut faire entre ces thèmes.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: national.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: But Europe also has an interest to defend. And again, I think that what is susceptible to happen in the growth of the Russian threat will be more aware of the more and more aware of it.
lpaltiguzman: All the two, we recently looked at European policies sustainability, emissions, whether for her methane reduction the corporate ah sustainability and diligence um regulation
Cécile Maisonneuve: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
lpaltiguzman: or from big companies or from export to Europe, such as the United States and Qatar, and who try to reduce the extraordinary power of these regulations.
lpaltiguzman: you think that Europe should be good and be strong?
lpaltiguzman: ecomp or the position from much moscow you have produced the flexibility on certain deregguulation like um whatever so pragmatism and podcast.
lpaltiguzman: But at the
lpaltiguzman: <unk>asse
Cécile Maisonneuve: In fact, for Europe, it's really a crucial moment because all the DNA of Europe, it So create a more pacific world.
lpaltiguzman: Hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: peace through strength.
Cécile Maisonneuve: yeah know lu ah la momon we sell ah connaconu r gpedi we already tra share The and everyone was plied,
Cécile Maisonneuve: This moment is finished and there will be no moment in Brussels on climate. The lead by example dead, but in addition to example, so rather a contre-exemple.
Cécile Maisonneuve: lu shposki for po just So to that we need to it means that we need to everything around the table and say, well, how do again,
Cécile Maisonneuve: where I put the a and manifestement, j'ai un problème.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Et le discours très théorique consistant à dire « Oui, il faut sortir des énergies fossiles, comme on n'aura plus de problème », ne règle absolument rien parce qu'on me démontre that Europe can be done in the to
Cécile Maisonneuve: lu for if we qui um There is a different things that we want and what we can do.
lpaltiguzman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cécile Maisonneuve: Today, the the the
lpaltiguzman: Thank you very much Cécile for this the
Cécile Maisonneuve: Thank you, the on which we have some ideas preconceived, which are still far from real.
lpaltiguzman: Merci.
lpaltiguzman: This episode was recorded on October 24, 2025. This is Leslie Baltic Guzman saying good day and good luck.
