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Insilico Terminal Podcast Episode 27 - Jim
96 Plays10 days ago
Jim Talbot joins the Insilico Terminal Podcast to talk about his path from crypto trader to product manager, how trading shaped his market view, and why he found more meaning in building with a team. The episode covers burnout, market evolution, metals, high-timeframe trading, and the mindset shifts that come after the trader arc.
00:00 Intro, Jim’s background, perma-bear arc and joining Insilico Terminal
08:05 Learning low timeframe trading, finding strategies, RSI divergence edge
16:31 Shift to higher timeframes, volatility changes and FTX/Alameda inefficiencies
25:06 2022 break, self-destructive cycles, relationships and personal growth
33:15 Trading as self-discovery, mental strain vs physical work, discipline lessons
41:35 Product management journey, Bonkbot to Insilico, building vs trading
49:00 Risk appetite, complacency, boredom and evolving market participation
58:33 Final advice: discipline, volatility, accountability and silver
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Transcript
Introduction of Jim Talbot
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to a new episode of the InSilico Terminal podcast. Today, my guest is our team member, I guess, that most people should know, Jim Talbot. But since my thing is always asking people to introduce themselves, I would like to ask you to introduce yourself to people that might not know you or who are you? What do you do? Where have you been all the time?
00:00:42
Speaker
Why did you leave us? Oh, yeah. So I'm Jim, it washed trader, former perma bear, turned product manager I guess.
00:00:59
Speaker
um Yeah, traded a lot traded a lot up until like what, 2022? Yeah, 2022 and kind of just took a break for a long time.
00:01:11
Speaker
Got bored, wanted a new challenge and for the last like year or so I've been involved in and doing some product product managing stuff, like challenging myself with learning some new skills, being involved in a team, which is really nice because trading is obviously very isolating. so Yeah, it's been fun. It's been fun.
00:01:32
Speaker
And yeah, just obviously just joined the InSilico terminal team, which is exciting. um Yeah, that's a little of intro.
Jim's Crypto Journey Begins
00:01:42
Speaker
Can you tell us a bit about I don't know if I've ever ah heard about that before, but like what what is like your origin story in crypto? How did you first get into it?
00:01:50
Speaker
What drew you to it? Well, to be honest, I was drawn to it super early. Like, I think probably 2013, 2014. And i was, I've always been really like, avoidant of figuring out tech and like, if there's no like simple path to action, I kind of get put off by it. So I kind of was interested in it, but there wasn't really an on-ramp where i was like, oh, this is easy.
00:02:20
Speaker
yeah And I didn't want to figure it out. And then obviously it boomed in 2017 was like, fuck. and i was like fuck um So then I FOMO'd in in like 2018.
00:02:35
Speaker
Basically made no money for like a year and a half and was like, what am I doing? And then like due to the fact I hadn't made any money doing it, um I kind of, I started following some Twitter accounts, learning more about the space.
00:02:52
Speaker
learning a bit about trading and then made some friends. One of my first friends was Magus, Trader Magus. um And early on, like i was coming at at it with this like investor mindset and Magus was like, you've got the mind for high frequency, like trading, scalping. yeah And he kind of took me under his wing and really taught me a lot about like flow trading, scalping.
00:03:18
Speaker
And I kind of transitioned to that in 2019.
00:03:22
Speaker
um And then yeah, kind of just went from there. And then 2019 through to like 2021, I just had like a really good... I had a period between like 2020, I think it was, or twenty late 2019 into late 20 or early 21, I can't really remember, where I just kind of hit a flow state, which was really cool. And it's obviously been quite hard to like emulate. So I've just been kind of chilling really since then.
00:03:46
Speaker
um But yeah, kind of I was never anticipating like doing anything on Twitter, but started just reply-guying to people. yeah And then don't know how it happens. its you know Because I'm an idiot, I use my own name and everything.
00:04:05
Speaker
And then obviously, you I guess you say the right thing sometimes and people pick up on it and then it just goes from there, really. So yeah, just kind of random. But yeah.
00:04:16
Speaker
yeah What did Magus see in you that made him think you would be a good low-time-frame trader? ah You know, ah to be honest, I can't even remember, a to be honest.
00:04:29
Speaker
Just something you tried and picked up and figured out were good at? Yeah, I think it was... Yeah, I think... I've always been really interested in human psychology. and Like there's no better way of seeing human psychology play out in sort of live action than watching a chart and seeing people's impulses and fears. And, um, you know, it's very, it's very interesting to watch.
00:04:56
Speaker
Um, you know, like even yesterday is a classic example, you know, everyone was, you know, it's a classic setup of like everyone's Everyone's bearish and doing posting, including myself. The obvious trade is like down. And then we obviously get this big squeeze. Everyone piles in thinking, you know, no one cares about the war.
00:05:17
Speaker
um The worst is behind us. Everyone piles in at the highs. You literally see it happen in the flow and open interest. And then it just looks like a trap, doesn't it? And everyone's just getting wiped out now. So, like just shit like that is funny.
00:05:32
Speaker
um
00:05:35
Speaker
So yeah, I think... not good for it. I thought it was quite funny ah to see people in in the group chats and on Twitter and whatever kind of suddenly become bullish. I think you also commented on that a bit because it's like um crypto has been in a really bad downtrend for like a while now and not nothing much is going on. And just because like...
00:05:57
Speaker
Iran war like resolving is kind of like a new catalyst that like is bullish for whatever reason. you know It's just like ah did didn the coherence of the narrative doesn't really like ah make that much sense to me, but I guess I agree like you know if I was in like a war-torn region I don't think my first thought would be let's get on the computer and like move all my money into a digital asset so I can escape I don't think I'm gonna be like I think that's far too rational um
00:06:29
Speaker
and like you know i think we're in a that I think we're in a period where there's not much interest. I don't think price is too desirable. Still, I've been trading quite a bit and I've been taking quite a few longs, but like, you know, I've seen this so many times where there's a bearish catalyst.
00:06:49
Speaker
We get a like, we get a big squeeze on like the first day of the week. and And if you can kind of be rational and and stick to the reality that this conflict is negative, that is disruptive, you know, it's not gonna resolve overnight.
00:07:12
Speaker
But if you can be rational and kind of just think, okay, it's probably better to position the other side of this flow as opposed to chasing it. You know, you had a huge spike in open interest, huge spike in spot flow. I've just kind of seen it too many times where it's just going to unwind. and And it looks like that's what's happening now.
Trading Strategies and Market Challenges
00:07:30
Speaker
And it kind of gave you the perfect opportunity to get into the trades that are like logical, which is like short equities, maybe buy some metals, maybe get along, uh,
00:07:39
Speaker
oil, not that trade oil and I won't trade really because i don't know enough about it. But you know, the fact that the dollar keeps rising as we had this spike is kind of, you know, gives you a bit of a clue as well, potentially as to we're going. So, yeah, i'm I'm short now personally.
00:07:59
Speaker
And I've just been trading their silver really.
00:08:03
Speaker
What was it like in in the old days when you first like learned the the lower timeframe trading? How long did it take you to kind of figure out what's going on or life have like a feeling that you tattoo like are profitable or you you kind of understand what's happening?
00:08:20
Speaker
I think it probably took me a good year a year, I would say, to kind of... um own a strategy that I could repeat. Because I think that's the key for me, for my success was being very um mechanical and just like finding two or three points of confluence um and trading like that.
00:08:46
Speaker
And then kind of like if you like, I think it's like anything. Like, if you take thousands and thousands of setups, you kind of, you you build this intuition to where you don't really need the tools anymore. It's kind of embedded in you as muscle memory. Like, you know, it's like if you learn music or a sport or something like that.
00:09:07
Speaker
ah And then it became very discretionary. And then I think I just, I kind of feel like I did my, like, what how would you class it? I kind of feel as though I did my school and and I kind of finished school right as like FTX was becoming prominent. And I think I gained, I managed to extract so much edge from how poorly Alameda and FTX um ran their book. ah That it just kind of was a perfect window for me to just kind of hit the ground running. And I had let's just had a really good run where
00:09:47
Speaker
Alameda were just like, and it kind of only dawned on me after they blew up. But at the time, I'm like, how are these guys making any money doing these stupid like, you know, they'd bang like 50 million to like squeeze, I don't know, 10 mil of shorts.
00:10:01
Speaker
And then it would just nuke after. And I'm like, what was that actually? They can't possibly have like benefited from from that flow. And then it obviously turns out that they didn't. But... There was just so much easy opportunity back then, um compared to now, where it's just, it's, it seems like it's become so efficient now that, like, you just don't get the opportunity anymore, I don't think, to, like,
00:10:27
Speaker
you know, enter on of inefficiencies. I think I've kind of zoomed out and gone on the higher timeframes now personally because it it feels like a market now where I think you have to position based on your conviction and, you know, and like hold through convictions as opposed to be any like, like I don't know, too technical, I guess. Mm-hmm.
00:10:51
Speaker
It feels like you need a bit bigger balls now just to kind of hold and and wait because it it seems to just stay at your entry for much longer now and make you question your sanity. I don't know if you feel the same.
00:11:08
Speaker
I don't know, I guess I didn't really like trade that much back then when they were like really active, but I can i can understand where you're coming from and I think it's probably right what you're saying.
00:11:21
Speaker
i'm I'm kind of curious though, like um back then when you first like ah when you were talking about getting your your strategy or like finding your strategy, like how did you go about finding that and what what did you look for?
00:11:37
Speaker
m If you can explain that. Good question. I mean, honestly, I was watching, I watched tutorial videos initially, like even like Cred's video. I remember Cred's RSI video. That was one that really landed with me.
00:11:50
Speaker
And then it was just a case of like, You know, you you try like 50 tools and then you pair it back to one tool that kind of just resonates with you and it's always been RSI for me.
00:12:01
Speaker
um And id I just kind of found from from looking back at chart history and then just, just just you know, i'd I'd watch the charts obsessively for like 12, 14 hours at a time and just see, and I'd just mark all the divergences on the timeframe I liked.
00:12:17
Speaker
and just was you know i just basically add up how many out of the last 10 20 50 trades were gave you an actionable setup then i'd be like i'd calculate the the average rotation so let's say like eight out of 10 divs one Like, what's the average percentage rotation on that time frame out of that divergence? And then I just kind of do, you know, set my position size and risk tolerance based on those parameters and just just keep clicking, basically, and just keep doing it. And then it just becomes very, like, and embedded in you kind of thing.
00:12:56
Speaker
um But I generally find, like, when a market's super active with participants, those those systems are much more actionable. Whereas now, like, the market's quite dead, I think, as far as for, like, day traders and stuff. I think you just kind of get, like, liquid funds and stuff that will, like, allocate capital for an extended period of time. And it's quite hard to get on board, I think. Like, even, like, I'm short right now, and it's not had been particularly comfortable, the way it moves, like, this slow grind down, you know, it's pretty...
00:13:32
Speaker
you know, it's pretty unnerving, I think. so So basically back then you were kind of looking at um like RSI divergences for like mean reversion moves and they tended to happen like a lot more because people were executing in a way less efficient manner than they are doing now?
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. You just had so many people trading actively, you know, just slamming market orders. um Whereas now, you know, you don't really get these periods where like I used to use agger sounds like all the time.
00:14:06
Speaker
And it just, it's just so quiet now, really. You don't really get these inflections or like periods where there's really fast sustained tape for like more than five or ten minutes, really. Whereas it used to be, used to get hours of just sustained like just chaos.
00:14:23
Speaker
Is that the reason why you took a break in 2022? Yeah, yeah. Even like... yeah yeah even like What was it, that 2021 rally, you know, after that first dump from like 60 to 30, you know, we went and made, did that was like, it was like the market was a shell of its former self after that first dump.
00:14:46
Speaker
Like, obviously we went back up to like all time highs, but it just felt like there was, it was just like empty compared to the previous cycle.
00:14:57
Speaker
um And it's just hard to, I just found it hard to to sort of regain any sort of edge. Like, you know, even now, like who's buying apart from one person, really? Like, how can you, i don't get how you can have any conviction or any, any strategy really based around one psychopath.
00:15:19
Speaker
You mean Sailor? he even still buying like any significant amount right I mean, it's getting smaller, isn't it? But yeah.
00:15:32
Speaker
So that made you like go more into into higher time frames because I feel like you don't really have that much edge anymore on the lower time frames? Yeah, generally now I don't sit at a chart for many for for for very long.
00:15:45
Speaker
I'll just generally use my phone now and look I'll look at my four hour chart and kind of just kind of trade instinctively if it's like If it's kind of resetting on the oscillator and it's kind coming into support, i'll I'll probably take a trade.
00:16:02
Speaker
um You know, it's very discretionary now. I just kind of look at my phone and if there's a setup. I generally find if you're like, if you have to look at a chart and kind of think about whether you want to enter then it's probably not worth it i think after you've been trading a long time you can kind of know whether you want to be in a trade or not within like the first second honestly so that's generally what i i just kind of do it for a bit of fun sometimes i don't really do it for like i don't and a love of the game i guess so you're not you assume you're not a lover of
Learning from Mistakes and Self-awareness
00:16:40
Speaker
the game you're just like uh someone had made money from it and then stepped away basically
00:16:45
Speaker
No, no, i still I'm saying I still do a bit every now and then in love of the game for some reason. I think it's like like masochism.
00:16:55
Speaker
see I wanted to ask what what exactly is, um do you mean with like an oscillator reset? If you can explain little bit, because I think I'm, I kind of know what you mean, but I'm also a bit too retarded to properly understand it.
00:17:09
Speaker
I've often seen you reference that before. Just, you know, like, just, I just kind of gauge what what what's price doing at a level when it's below, 30 on the rsi you know it's it's very it's super noob it's super noobish stuff like i don't try and you know just like is it over is it getting into oversold or diverging into a level of interest that's it basically um yeah yeah yeah yeah are you still ah like Have you found it difficult to transition from the lower timeframes to the higher timeframes? Because you didn't really like ah you never really held positions that long and now you kind of have to and you're the famous take-profit maxi, so how do you reconcile that?
00:17:57
Speaker
Yeah, I do struggle with it because the biggest struggle for me is I like closing trades yeah as quick as possible. um So I'll have a setup on the four hour, I'll have this like extended target and I'll end up closing after 30 minutes.
00:18:11
Speaker
And then like five days later, I'll hit the initial target and I just think about how much money i could have made if I just had some conviction or patience really. So that's kind of...
00:18:24
Speaker
It's almost impossible to get over, I think. um You know, I spent so long actively trying to close trades as quick as possible. Yeah. I'm also really struggling with that, to be honest, like because I also like kind of ah mostly always trade at lower timeframes. And now when you do higher timeframes, it's like it's so difficult to just let it sit there and play out over time.
00:18:47
Speaker
Because I'm like, if it's up, I kind of want TP. And you also never really know how far it's really going to go or how long it's going to take. And then I kind of let myself be in influenced by the like changing conditions along the way, even though it's kind of stupid, but it's like very difficult to just, like as you say, have conviction and just hold something for a long amount of time if you're not really used to it.
00:19:12
Speaker
And it's like, I mean, this is a classic example we're seeing now. Like, you know, like we we tagged the 70k again um and then we spend like 12, 15 hours slowly correcting.
00:19:26
Speaker
And if like amount of times I look at that, and I'm like one 15 minute candle can erase that 12 hours. and it And then you just, you know, you feel worse than closing early, honestly. So it's kind of a, yeah, it's it's tough. It's tough.
00:19:42
Speaker
I think it's just the a symptom of a low volatility market really.
00:19:50
Speaker
I've been scalping Silver this morning and i just i'm like I'm just like, why haven't I been doing this for like the last few weeks? It's so much more reactive than experience. It's probably way better right now, yeah.
00:20:02
Speaker
Silver is actually doing quite a lot compared to crypto. Crypto is kind of dead since 1010.
00:20:11
Speaker
hasn't really been any any interesting stuff. It's just like, don't wanna know. I mean, we can make an argument for it being like a local bottom or whatever, but apart from like Iran war being over, I don't know, it's kind of like, what really changed? by why why do Why do we buy now? What is better than before?
00:20:31
Speaker
totally yeah honestly i could see it bottoming around this level 60k would be logical makes sense historically and stuff but might take a while to actually reverse you know yeah um yeah do you um wait what did i want to ask what What are some, while we're on that topic, what are some of like the the biggest um mistakes you've made over the years while trading or like lessons that you have that you like learned along the way and your in your experience?
00:21:06
Speaker
God.
00:21:09
Speaker
I'm trying to remember, to be honest. I have a, I like, curb I think to an extent I have like purposefully, don't try and oh like ah try not to remember like trading stuff.
00:21:26
Speaker
I try and get over losses and not dwell on wins as much as possible and just move on to the next trade. I think that's super important. I think there's definitely, there's there's periods where I'll trade out of boredom and lose money when I know deep down I shouldn't be trading, but I've got nothing else to do.
00:21:46
Speaker
yeah um So that's a mistake that I'd even make, you know, I've made since I started and I still make. um Because it's, you know, Cause it does have that video game feel and sometimes you just want to play the video game, even if it's like broken.
00:22:00
Speaker
Um, and then i think another, I think one of the recurring lessons I've always had, and it always trips me up still, is i always have this tendency to enter a trade one one rotation early.
00:22:19
Speaker
i get the signal and I can see the light inflection point and I'll enter. And the amount of times it's the next rotation that's the one, And then I'll end up losing on the initial trade and then i'll I'll doubt my thesis and not take the trade again and then I'll miss out. That's happened to me quite lot times.
00:22:41
Speaker
ah So, yeah, those are the ones. And I guess, like, you to answer your question, what have you learned? I guess I haven't learned from it.
00:22:55
Speaker
That's a great answer. So you don't have to learn to make money. You can still just go to the next trade and do whatever. I'm fully aware of my faults and I've done nothing to rectify them.
00:23:08
Speaker
it's It's like that one of the reasons that you go into a trade a bit early, that is ah because I think you've told me before that you like utilize or you at least used to utilize scale orders a lot to scale into positions.
00:23:22
Speaker
To be honest, no, I don't yeah i just hit a market now. I don't really. I'm so um so lazy, on honestly. um I got into, like again, like the whole muscle memory thing. I used to scalp with scale orders on like very low time frames.
00:23:40
Speaker
And it it genuinely you know saved so much money. It's like unbelievable. ah But unless you're actively doing that every day, it's quite hard to like um do that efficiently, honestly.
00:23:51
Speaker
um I feel as though like the market, like, you know, if you kind of study in and watch price action develop for like 12 hours a day for a like an extended period of time, yeah the the the market has like a heartbeat and a rhythm that you kind of fall into. And then you, whereas if you're just looking every other day sporadically, it's very hard to kind of gauge the the rhythm, I guess.
00:24:20
Speaker
So yeah, no, it's not really to do with execution. It's more, I think, I think it's a very difficult one to actually rectify as an issue because I enter because I don't want, I want the best opportunity possible and I don't want it to move without me.
00:24:39
Speaker
I think, I think if I were to rectify it it would be taking the trade a second time after the invalidation would probably be the way to rectify it. Maybe I've finally fixed it. Maybe this is it. This is the therapy session I needed.
00:24:57
Speaker
yeah So people, this is actually a good the good
Personal Growth and Human Connection
00:25:00
Speaker
part about the podcast. It's not just like for the listeners. It's also for the person coming on to like learn about themselves. Yeah. I've had a breakthrough.
00:25:10
Speaker
Book one-on-one private the sessions with Sokyo soon to fix your trading psychology.
00:25:18
Speaker
but when you When you took a break in 2022, what did you end up doing since you're like, said you're kind of ah addicted to trading, I guess, a bit? So like, how else did you spend your time?
00:25:30
Speaker
How did I spend my time? I was drinking a lot.
00:25:36
Speaker
i getting i was getting yeah I was getting fucked up quite a lot. I don't mind admitting. i generally I'm a very up and down person. It's something I've got better at managing and I can kind of maintain the sort of monotony and boredom of being kind of in the middle.
00:25:56
Speaker
But generally like big highs and and big lows. And generally, after a big high, I like to kind of... i almost enjoy crashing out and going and kind of... Yeah, and like, you know, I find it quite explore... like I find it quite important to kind of...
00:26:14
Speaker
learn more about yourself and figure out like your triggers and why you act so in ways because it kind of always stems from you know like like negative life experience and stuff so i kind of you know do a bit soul searching to be honest um but didn't manage to like lock in a girlfriend which is pretty great so that's been a But I think, yeah, I kind of, in fact, yeah, I don't mind going deep, actually. But like, I think after that period, i was kind of soul searching. I was trying to figure out what was missing from my life. And I think it was like, I was kind of longing and seeking human connection and relations instead of just kind of being terminally online and isolated.
00:27:02
Speaker
yeah So I kind of tried to get out my comfort zone a bit and go out and like socialize and meet people and stuff. And you know, that's been beneficial. And now it's like, it's nice because I kind of lost the motivation to to do things actively to benefit myself.
00:27:20
Speaker
But now I have someone in my life that I care for. It's much easier to like motivate myself because I'm kind of trying to succeed for the other person now, which is which is cool. That sounds very nice, actually. it Do you feel like trading has kind of helped you as well in like um this whole searching process, like, or like discovering yourself?
00:27:39
Speaker
Definitely, definitely, because like And i think I think a lot of people kind of miss the opportunity with this, because they are kind of, you know, how many people do you see blaming the market for their, you know, mistakes? and Yeah.
00:27:58
Speaker
But, you know, it's it's always our fault. It can feel like the market's doing you wrong, but, like, I find, like, you know, The market can do you wrong, obviously, sometimes. But you know if you're in like a good mental state with a good routine of like exercise and eating and getting enough daylight and all these things, your trading will improve. So it's kind of a personal endeavor, a personal journey of like you know self-improvement will then equate to improved trading. So...
00:28:31
Speaker
I can't remember what the question was. um if If like trading also helped you in the self discovery process. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think I don't think there's many better ways because you know, when you have your own money on the line, like
00:28:50
Speaker
It's just that there's nothing like that. you know You can go to work for seven days and and lose money. like There's nothing quite like that. There's no security. you know yeah And I think that lack of security is really enlightening or it can be. It can be destructive, but it can be enlightening as well. did you like ah at what point did you quit your job? but Did you like have a job coming into crypto or?
00:29:17
Speaker
Literally, i was blititchchy I've been self-employed since 18. eighteen Oh wow. Or 18 or you know what I think it was 19 or 18. I basically I did a car, a joinery carpentry apprenticeship and I can't remember if I finished when i was 18 19.
00:29:40
Speaker
Um, and then, and then I set up as a gardener. i just kind of posted leaflets around. Got some business and then got word of mouth and set up, had a nice little gardening company.
00:29:53
Speaker
And then I went back to my joinery and started doing odd jobs for people, which kind of, expanded into like full blown contracting and, ah you know, doing extensions and renovations for people.
00:30:06
Speaker
And then I got on, I managed to get like the property ladder and started doing property, you know, flipping properties and stuff. That was just before I got into crypto.
00:30:16
Speaker
um Yeah, 2018. So yeah, I'm not really and been employed since i was like 18, I think, which is pretty grossing. Do you feel like any of that work that you did before ah helped you afterwards in crypto and trading?
00:30:35
Speaker
That's a good question. It definitely did. like I'm trying to think. I think
00:30:47
Speaker
it gave me sense of reality. i think it gave me a better sense of reality You know, like having a real-world job and interacting with real-world people, managing expectations of real-world clients and, you know, contractors and stuff.
00:31:09
Speaker
Um, because, i you know, i think, you know, if you're like getting into crypto like 16, 17, and then you end up making a bunch of money, that can be super destructive, I think, because you don't really have any real-world experience. Um,
00:31:24
Speaker
Many such cases. So, yeah, yeah. um And I'd already dealt with a lot of adversity and like problem solving and time management and all of these things. so you know, I think that helped for sure.
00:31:42
Speaker
i think where it doesn't help is like
00:31:47
Speaker
I think one of the good things about being a teenager getting into crypto is that your appetite for a risk is just like off the charts. yeah So your ah like ability and potential to make like um obscene money is greater, but it's also, you know, you can lose it. So I've never, I've always had a very calculated and like calculated appetite for risk, which has definitely cost me, I would say.
00:32:12
Speaker
um Yeah. You know, where I've had really high conviction and not sized appropriately. Yeah. Yeah. I can relate to that, but also feel... That's more than anything.
00:32:25
Speaker
it it does It does hurt a lot, but I also feel like um even if you if you come into crypto and if you're quite young and if you have a lot of risk appetite, i think it's almost... It sounds a bit counterintuitive, but it's like almost detrimental if you like make a lot of money.
00:32:39
Speaker
Because I feel like there's like so few cases where that actually goes right. Because you will never have the the mental fortitude to actually deal with that change in wealth.
00:32:55
Speaker
Because that's just like what happens, you know, if if you make a lot of money from from nothing, it changes a lot of things. And especially if you're young, you don't have a lot of life experience and then you're on the the risk hungry side. That's where there there are so many stories of people growing up because that's just what what happens. Like you you make it in and then you yeah lose it again because you have no idea how to keep it. sure Exactly.
00:33:18
Speaker
and indeed you have no appreciation of
Trading as Self-discovery?
00:33:20
Speaker
the value of it. Yeah. That as well. Yeah. up I also think training is kind of like underappreciated as a tool of self-discovery as we we talked about before.
00:33:32
Speaker
um If you like only go into it with the idea of I want to make money, I want to do this or whatever. Because as you said, like if your money is on the line, like knowing yourself is so hard and like understanding yourself is very difficult. But having like ah an actual financial loss or like a number that goes down or something that is like an emotional attachment that you feel when you make a mistake really like kind of forces you like either you're gonna look at this and you're gonna figure out why you're doing this or you're actually gonna lose money and your life will like suck more so you kind of like have to do it a bit
00:34:12
Speaker
It's genuinely, you know, people outside of trading, they always think trading's a bullshit easy job where you get paid loads of money. But as someone that's like had those backbreaking construction jobs and been exhausted, trading's the hardest job it' It's the hardest job. It's mentally exhausting.
00:34:36
Speaker
The sleepless nights, the constant......self-doubt and introspection and... It's brutal is completely brutal compared to like being physically tired from moving concrete all day.
00:34:50
Speaker
Yeah. But then going home and sleeping 10 hours dead, you know? so I don't think I've slept well since I stopped construction, honestly. like it So I don't know if it's because I've conditioned myself to be to to need that physical strain in order to let rest. But it feels like I've not been able to sleep for the last fucking eight years, honestly.
00:35:14
Speaker
move But also in the in the physical job, it's like, even if it's extremely straining, you still have like the, usually at least, like if you work a normal job or whatever, you have that security of you work and it didn't get paid for it. But in trading, you can put in insane amounts of work and not just like not get paid, but also lose money, which just feels terrible.
00:35:37
Speaker
Totally, man. Like, i'm not going I'm not going to bed as a gardener stressing about Betty's fucking roses or whatever, you know what mean? But you you go to bed with a large position open with no stop loss.
00:35:53
Speaker
There's no comparison. Yeah.
00:35:58
Speaker
So how did you, how did you, what or what made you transition then? I guess maybe boredom or like ah being done with crashing out from, from being this perma bear into the the product manager arc?
00:36:09
Speaker
Yeah. Um, as a, yeah, I was sick of, sick of self-loathing for a start. Um, and I was just always at home, like my girlfriend's working and stuff.
00:36:26
Speaker
And I was like, if I don't do something soon, I'm gonna be a fucking house husband or something. that's not So I was like, i need to I need to get some hunger back and get some some passion back for something. And, you know, I've always been i've always liked picking up new skills.
00:36:44
Speaker
So I put some feelers out. And I put some feelers out at BonkBot. um And it was just as they were like, bringing their terminal to market. um And I joined them as a... i can wait Initially, I joined them to do like marketing strategy stuff.
00:37:02
Speaker
um And just as I saw the team structure and what they were doing, I was just like, oh, wow, okay, I have a passion for product here.
00:37:12
Speaker
So I took a role as a product manager for a year. And ah it was it's just fucking awesome. It's awesome. It's this it's like... Like, it feels great when you win a trade, but you know when you have like ah a collective group win where you like ship something?
00:37:30
Speaker
And everyone cheers and it's just, that's the that's a better feeling than anything. It's just like so good. Like, you all these people have put all their blood, sweat and tears into something that comes to market. It's yeah that's slight it's more addictive than winning a trade, honestly.
00:37:46
Speaker
ah And I think like going back to what i was saying earlier about being like tech, avoidant of tech and like hat and liking having sort of clear on on ramps and like like um what do you call it have to what do you call it you know like call to action being simple and nice that kind of mentality is yeah that kind of mentality is is what i try and bring to the product stuff um and i think my
00:38:19
Speaker
My time as a trader in crypto has given me like some like really good um product intuition where traders are concerned and what their needs are and yeah the friction points and stuff.
00:38:31
Speaker
um Yeah, it's just been really cool. It's really fun. It's really fun.
00:38:39
Speaker
I'm also kind of like I really understand the position of just like being at home and doing nothing as I often tweet about because like I kind of only really have a social life when I like travel because otherwise like when I'm at home I don't i don't really do anything besides going to the gym and like trading and working and um I'm also like not the best trader or whatever I don't think I could just live like only of trading but also if I only trade it my day would be like so empty, kind of, in a way. like I'm really glad that I have something that I can that i like care about, that is like nice, that I can participate in, where I know like me and other people are working towards like a common goal and we're creating something and putting it out into the world. And like when i put out a podcast episode or whatever and and a person DMs me and is like, hey, I really like that or whatever, it it's like...
00:39:24
Speaker
it It feels like you're actually doing something, like you're providing some value to the world, you're making the life of someone better in a way, and it didn't just like see a number, green P&L or whatever, that went up, which also feels good, but doesn't really like fulfill you or like give your life that much meaning.
00:39:43
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. Like it's so much easier to, when you're on a team, it's so much easier to get up in the morning and motivate yourself to get there, get to your computer for your team, you know, when they need you or you need you and like, it's very rewarding.
00:40:02
Speaker
And there's some real beasts, like there's some really awesome people I think working that don't get the credit in crypto like for like, you know, building cool tools like back, you know, back there's some really smart backend engineers and frontend engineers. And it's kind of, you know, it's one of the reasons I approached in Siligo Terminal because I've obviously been a day one user. Yeah. And I remember back in the day just DMing Azzy and being like, I need this feature.
00:40:28
Speaker
And he's like, 24 hours later, he's like done. I'm like, okay, this is cool. um And yeah, it's just a really good, it's always, it's you know, it's always been a really reliable, good product. um I think that's the key, like the reliability is like, I can't remember ever really being down to be honest, every time I've used it, which is pretty awesome.
00:40:52
Speaker
which is of course also easy to say on the InSirico Terminal podcast or whatever. But also, I don't want to like... place the people that pay my salary too much. But like... I mean, Azi doesn't really take care of day-to-day stuff at Terminal anymore whatever. But when I started working and I told Dennis, like, here, there's a buck and this is there or whatever. Just the speed and care which he and everyone on the team takes care of stuff is just very nice to see because you know that...
00:41:23
Speaker
Like one of the greatest things about working here is like, I like the product. I use the product before before I worked there. It's a cool brand or whatever, but it's also like everyone really cares about making it good.
00:41:34
Speaker
And it's also not it's also not a scam. So that's like all really nice aspects to like make you feel good about
Transition to Product Management
00:41:40
Speaker
being there.
00:41:42
Speaker
Totally. No, it's a good team. hello So you're also like taking over like a product manager role at that our team now? I believe so. I believe so. Because I also i also don't really what exactly.
00:42:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's the plan. oh Which is exciting. So if the product goes downhill from here, you can all blame me.
00:42:11
Speaker
I'm i'm like giving over the responsibility because before, like every every bad change that we made over the last year whatever, it's all my responsibility. It was my idea, everything we didn't like. um And now from now on, you can blame Jim and it's all his fault.
00:42:27
Speaker
but But I think we're gonna we're gonna make... Actually, we have like very, very cool stuff coming up. I'm actually very excited about that. Just even like use for myself because ah we've been like making some very, very cool changes and I'm very excited. And I think you're also doing a good job of like making it a bit easier to to onboard and then making it more intuitive and stuff because that might be something where the terminal is a bit...
00:42:51
Speaker
The terminal is quite complex if you're a new user and you don't really know what you're doing. And um I think like simplifying that is a good step in the right direction so that it's yeah easier to use for like everyday people as well and not just shadowy, super cooler, autists.
00:43:11
Speaker
i don't if they're open. don't know if my DMs are open or not. I need to check. But like, if you're a terminal user and you have a gripe or an annoyance, like just send me a message, honestly.
00:43:24
Speaker
I think the same goes for all of us. I think all of us are like quite responsive. You can also always DM me or DM the m terminal account. Maybe do not DM Azzy because he's not really like that day-to-day involved anymore. Everyone else is very DM-able and will very ah listen to your concerns and your all of your stuff because we care about making the experience good and providing a good product.
00:43:52
Speaker
um What else is there to talk about? you when did you... When did you, like, ah get back into trading? Was it, like, recently? or did it did you do that when you, like, started working as a product manager?
00:44:07
Speaker
or um when did i you know what actually i've always um i've never participated or joined group chats really in crypto um yeah i i was i I don't like, I don't, it sounds awful, but i've i've never really and I've never really liked reading or hearing other people's opinions on the market.
00:44:36
Speaker
Especially people who I respect, you know, like I don't want their ideas clouding my own judgment. um And then also like, you know, when you get like a hundred notifications and you've missed the whole chat ad just popped me off.
00:44:52
Speaker
But recently i joined um I joined a group chat, Piggies Den, and I actually enjoy it for once. Like, it's fun talking there. um And I think I've found... I kind of realise now that, like, I can...
00:45:08
Speaker
I can hear and listen to other people's takes now and it doesn't really, it doesn't affect me at all. Um, and it's just kind of fun and it's just kind of, I think it's given me a bit of, ah inspiration to do a bit more trading again Cause it's quite fun. It's quite fun sharing setups and stuff with the boys.
00:45:27
Speaker
What made you get to the point that you like don't, uh, get clouded that much anymore from listening to others? um Is it just because you're like more detached now because you're not that... I think so, yeah, because it doesn't really... Yeah, I think because I have a separate bigger goal and like something I'm aspiring to and and like in the product management stuff.
00:45:53
Speaker
This is, to it's not like, I'm not dependent on this to fulfill me both financially and like mentally. So I can just, I don't really, you know, um I can just kind of play around with some money and see if I still have it. That was another issue I had like 2022 or it was, is like I got to the point where, where losses didn't hurt anymore. And that's a really dangerous mindset. You know, when you can just kind of close losses and it doesn't affect you mentally. Like I, I kind of had to stop because I, it was quite, dis I felt quite destructive. Yeah. Oh yeah.
00:46:37
Speaker
That seems dangerous. isn that I think that's the pattern of behavior with a lot of crypto guys actually. And it's definitely been prevalent in my life is like, I like to, i like to, I like to reset to zero to give me the the motivation to like succeed again. And I did that in my twenties and it's like,
00:47:00
Speaker
It's really shit. Like it's good because it's really good because you like start from zero and you have this pressure, but then when you get it older, you're just like, this can't serve me anymore. i need to like fix this.
00:47:15
Speaker
So I had the awareness to like, to stop this before it got destructive, I think. Yeah. So yeah, be aware of that everyone, honestly.
00:47:26
Speaker
Yeah. I think many people in crypto have kind of like self-destructive tendencies, or at least every time ah the market has like a downturn, it very much feels that way. Because like, everyone is always like up and happy when the market is up and like splurging and then enjoying their life. And then the when when the market is down, everyone is like looking for a job or like scamming. don't even know why. Just to get some some money back.
00:47:54
Speaker
Because ah even though we have a lot of risk management threats, ah most people probably don't practice the best risk management. Well, becomes very you know it becomes very boring. You know when you're starting off and you're like you have this exponential like equity curve where you're just like, you know you're multiplying your account weekly and you're like, oh my god, this feels fucking awesome. And then you get to a point where like, you know, incremental percentage changes of your portfolio and you're like managing your downside and you're being very picky with your with your positioning. And it becomes it becomes very boring. It becomes very boring.
00:48:34
Speaker
That's why I'm always blown away by people like Kobe and stuff who's like, you know, he's so... He's so patient.
00:48:45
Speaker
And he's also like, he's got great timing and great sort of, for he's always forward thinking. um And he doesn't need to anymore. And I'm always impressed with his ability to like um maintain a level of risk appetite and stuff, you know?
00:49:07
Speaker
Yeah. I'm not too good at that personally.
00:49:12
Speaker
I feel like it can can be quite difficult. look It's always a bit impressive when people are like, um already have a lot and then they still strive to like do more, provide more, be on their A game and not just become complacent.
00:49:26
Speaker
I think that might be the key though. Kobe is an example. is like you know he He kind of changes the way he um, has exposure to the market in each cycle. Like one cycle, it's like, you know, more degenerate, then it becomes more like sophisticated, like long-term outlook of investment. And then it's like, you know, investing in early startups and then it's creating your own startup. It's kind of keeping it fresh as opposed to just kind of trade the same every time.
Impact of AI on Trading
00:50:00
Speaker
Um, Yeah, it's all to say like good trading should be boring, but I mean, you can't just like be bored forever. I guess you need some new new changes and new things in your life to actually like make things interesting and keep you going and not just like sit around them and endlessly make money for no reason.
00:50:22
Speaker
Oh shit, I'm scared. I've been long gold now and I don't know why. Did you just say fade? I left some like stinker beds not expecting to get filled and they've just been filled which I'm a bit scared about.
00:50:38
Speaker
like I think it's funny that you've never been like really active in a group chat before because um I feel like nowadays people are always like, since Twitter is so fucked as a website just because of like how the internet is today, unfortunately, it's kind of like destroyed by bots and also the monetization and stuff. It's just it's just bad.
00:50:59
Speaker
But um people are always like, hey, CT moved into all of these group chats. So it kind of feels like it's there's like this... all all the all these group chats where all the the serious people are sharing their alpha and and trading and you will like never be be inside of it and can't gather the information anymore as it was before where it's like more open and whatever but most of the time.
00:51:24
Speaker
I guess like me and Insilico, our group chat was always just doing these like schizo threads anyway. So that kind of gave me my, filled my need for that honestly.
00:51:37
Speaker
But now, yeah, it's kind of dead. I didn't really look at Twitter actually anyway. so
00:51:46
Speaker
You can't say anything anymore without some fucking dweeb like.
00:51:51
Speaker
mention it. You know, I'll say something like I did it the other day. I tweeted, I tweeted something bearish yesterday, I think it was. And some i think so some that I don't think they realize that time passes and they're like, they're like you've been bearish the whole cycle, like referencing 2020. I'm like, bro, it's fucking 2026. I've not spoke about the market in about three years. Yeah, I guess your your perception that just got stuck in people's minds as like perma bears are bearish forever on everything.
00:52:27
Speaker
Honestly, that's why I gave up on Twitter. yeah It's annoying, honestly. It's annoying. I've always tried to be like honest with my views. You're just not allowed to get it wrong on on Twitter, unfortunately.
00:52:44
Speaker
I think the Schizofreads were like great. or they were like They're like one of the most amazing sources of ah education that like exists out there. Even if you have to like look through them a bit, but there's like a lot of people that have organized them now and shit because there's just so much value in in discussion like that, which doesn't really happen anymore because there's no incentive anymore for anyone to to talk about things in that way. Because the the experience of the the page just has become a lot worse. like Being on the internet in general feels kind of like worse than before.
00:53:17
Speaker
like a I don't know, I think Trip recently talked about it, it's that kind of... that the peak is like behind us, and I also really feel that as someone that has like spent the majority of his life on the internet, it just doesn't really feel as as fun or or engaging any anymore, because everything is just like AI slop and... or like doomerism and then... I don't know, it's just kind of...
00:53:40
Speaker
It feels like I'm not really being informed anymore. I'm like learning things anymore, but I'm just like reading regurgitating like slob. So I might as well just read source books that actually have like information and like not just like view negative news about the world and where it's going to be in a year, how it's going to be 10 times worse than right now. Yeah.
00:54:03
Speaker
I always think about that Tim Dillon quote that me and Tripp used to post of the like, if you think the population's gonna get smarter, healthier, and more adept at problem solving, like that's gonna go down in the history books because it's so true.
00:54:20
Speaker
Like, even now, like, you know, and I do it. Like, instead of reading a book, you can just you can just ask some slot bot to, like, condense it into a paragraph for you.
00:54:31
Speaker
And it's just, like, I don't know if you've been doing much of the Claude stuff, like, trying to code and stuff. I personally haven't, but... I've tried it. How's that... yeah it's It's been actually interesting. The thing is, I've also like um i've studied computer science before, but and I've like worked a bit as a web dev, so I kind of know some stuff.
00:54:52
Speaker
um So I know like the basics, and then what I did is I wanted to farm I got like really strong FOMO from not being able to like use all the perpdexes.
00:55:03
Speaker
Because I was like, i want to I don't want to have this feeling of if I did this much volume on Hyperliquid or whatever, i could have gotten this much airdrop. So I was like, I want to do volume on all all of these like wonderful exchanges. And then... um I also didn't want to stop using the terminal and having like five tabs open because I can only use the terminal everything else is like terrible for me.
00:55:26
Speaker
And um so i was like, hey, why don't I try vibe coding like a bot to to trade on some perp dexes to like farm points and like just try to do it a way where it like will lose the least amount of money possible, but like do some volume.
00:55:41
Speaker
And then um actually it has been kind of like profitable because what I did is I've just like ah I'm like leaking alpha, you know, just like I've just did like the Hullsuit indicator on the 15 minute chart with like some thresholds and whatever and like some stops.
00:56:00
Speaker
And um it's like basically they' just like trading trends on the 15 minute chart. I don't know how profitable or whatever it that is, but I wanted to do a bit more volume. And it has like worked decently so far. So that has also been an interesting experience to like do that.
00:56:16
Speaker
So I wouldn't... I'm i'm not the person but that says like... um AGI is here and will change the world and blah, blah, blah. And I think AI is probably a bit overrated. But for something like that... Because I know a bit of computer science, but I also didn't read any of the code that I made for that. I just like have my training knowledge and like a bit of coding knowledge and whatever. it And it kind of works so far. So...
00:56:39
Speaker
It's been interesting at least. Yeah. I think it's cool. I think it's cool. um I'm still, I don't know what, I think it's the tech thing, but I'm still reluctant to get stuck into it. But I think if I do...
00:56:54
Speaker
I think I'm a bit stupid to be honest because most of my trading could be automated like quite easily. I don't know if it's because I like the manual process of clicking buttons still.
00:57:06
Speaker
um I don't know. I don' i don't really get, oh I wouldn't really get the same high or buzz from like looking at my account and seeing it up based on like automated trades. Maybe I would, maybe i need to try it. i don't know. but it is it is It is fun.
00:57:23
Speaker
It feels kind of cool. That is like something that like works with out here as well. But I think what you said is also a bit of this ah feeling like if you do drugs or whatever, like I used to have some time where I was kind of like a bit addicted to weed, I guess, like not really strongly, but like I just smoked every weekend or whatever.
00:57:40
Speaker
and I realized after some time that I'm not really like addicted to to the to the process of being high. But like... the the whole like ritual before it, you know, i'm meeting up with my friends, acquiring it, then you're like rolling the joints or whatever, and then like the act of smoking, that all of that is kind of like... And I think in addiction psychology, there's also like... the part like before you actually do the drug is like way more satisfying than being high itself. And maybe like it's a bit similar with like pressing the buttons to yourself and like the manual frame.
00:58:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I'm just of just justify like drug addiction or whatever. I don't know. That's all right. dabble from time to time.
00:58:31
Speaker
I guess um we've been at it for a while now. Do you have any like advice for people? any Any wisdom? Any any finishing words? Anything people can can learn from you?
00:58:46
Speaker
Uh, Jesus.
00:58:51
Speaker
I don't know. I think, um...
00:58:58
Speaker
Would you still tell tell people to take profit? Yeah, always. Honestly, always. Like, you know, what's the point? And not... And i've always been a I've always been a strong believer in like, it's easier to predict low timeframe outcomes than high timeframe outcomes. Like it's it's just a true. It's true. People try and refute it, but it's just true.
00:59:24
Speaker
um And like, if you can reduce your time exposure and and maximize your gains that way, that's that's that's how I've always done it. And I like that process.
00:59:35
Speaker
But it just takes more discipline um so yeah i think i think advice for people is be more disciplined be more introspective don't leave things to chance you know don't put your fate and expectation in the hands of the market take take you know take accountability really yeah so you would say even though you're now like trading on higher time frames is still like more beneficial to do timeframe stuff if you like really want to put the work in?
01:00:11
Speaker
a That's a good question because I kind of think crypto for low timeframe trading
01:00:18
Speaker
Brutal. But like, you know, I kind of, I think like, you know, hyperliquid now you can trade, you know, with decent liquidity and volume now and it's only going to go up like trading gold, silver, of equities, like there's so many more markets and it's so transferable. If you get like a mechanical trading so system, it doesn't matter if it's Bitcoin or fucking, you know,
01:00:44
Speaker
orange juice futures or whatever, lean hogs, you know what I mean? and is you can just you can You can trade anything. yeah the The key is to trade something that's actively moving and is volatile. That's it.
01:00:56
Speaker
um Volatility is your friend. That's another like thing, you know. People feel more confident and more at ease when something's not volatile. But but really, like you're more likely to
01:01:12
Speaker
you're more likely to succeed in involved volatility. it's It's actually more predictable. If you can like ground yourself and keep a level head, it's more predictable than low volatility for sure.
01:01:25
Speaker
So be disciplined, trade, trade, volatile coins. Too low timeframes. Who'd have thought we'd have gone from trading Bitcoin to trading boomer coins, fucking silver and gold.
01:01:38
Speaker
They have been more fun, but then they actually go up and they actually may serve some real purpose. It's fun. You know what? You know what? Like... The amount, I've been so bullish on silver since like 2021. Mm-hmm. You know, vocal, like silver, i you know, I put a good portion of my money into physical silver and I got roasted for it.
01:02:06
Speaker
And I just want to say, fuck you all. it' Because what a trade. And you know what made me even happier? I told my mum to push some of her savings in at like $22 and it was like, it was literally like weeks, like a few weeks before it ripped and like that was really satisfying. Like the timing and stuff. Nice.
01:02:28
Speaker
Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah, thanks.
01:02:34
Speaker
So thank you very much for coming onto this podcast. Fuck you to all the non silver buying people, including me. I mean, I didn't like shit on you whatever, but i also didn't buy silver. So I guess fuck me too. But the yeah, yeah dime he finally, finally had his moment.
01:02:50
Speaker
Really.