Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to Tales from the French and Indian War. I am your host, Jackson. And I am your co-host, Matt. And we are joined by another Matt today. i'm here to introduce our special guest, Matt Galt, Director of Education and Living History at Fort Ligonier. Welcome, Matt.
Speaker: Woo! It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you guys for having me on. Yeah, so as you guys know, we have been entering 1758. Lots and lots of content to cover.
Speaker: We recently did the Louisbourg expedition and siege. and Before that, we talked about just the general political maneuverings and strategic imperatives for both Britain and France.
Speaker: Today we're talking about some more Western PA focused history. So I love that. And I know we have a lot of listeners in Pennsylvania, so I hope you'll ah really enjoy this one.
Speaker: But ah yeah, if you might remember that last year I commented about visiting Fort Ligonier and was very impressed. So I had that in the back of my mind for once we eventually get to that episode, I could contact someone from there and hey, we're finally here.
Speaker: So, Matt, before we get into all of the juicy details, the drama, the intensity of the Forbes expedition, why don't we start with you, who you are, maybe what got you interested in this era in the first place and how you got to your current position and and what kind of work you do.
Speaker: Certainly. So first off again, thank you guys for having me on. I greatly appreciate it. um I've always been very interested in history. I actually, you know, growing up in Western Pennsylvania gave me a natural avenue, i think, to learn about American history, Pennsylvania history and global history as a whole, just because there is so much of this story to tell. in Western Pennsylvania. So truly, i think I've always been a history lover. I went into education initially. Whenever I went to college, it was for secondary ed. The plan was to become a teacher, but I got a ah got an internship at Fort Ligonier and then never left, eventually becoming the assistant director of education there, then the director of education. And then after that, the director of education and living history. So truly, I've been at Fort Ligonier for the entirety of my professional career now over 10 years.
Speaker: And it has been a joy just because I get to live this history every day, learn more about it and reveal more about it as we continue to truly learn more and dive into the primary sources about as we're going to talk about the Forbes campaign today. but so many people that were on this expedition made their lives throughout Fort Ligonier. So it's been a joy of mine for the last 10 years to be able to do this. Of course, I do like to think that I like other eras of history as well outside the French and Indian War. I got engaged in Gettysburg. I like going on historical trips and whatnot. So I am a all history lover, I'd say, but truly the French and Indian War shares a very special part in my heart because of what I get to do every single day.
Speaker: That's great. Now you you mentioned getting engaged in Gettysburg. was your Is your wife also a history fan or was was that a more one-sided location? ah Let's say definitely one-sided. ah she She is not a history fan, you would say. she She enjoys the little town of Gettysburg. She likes to go there and I think she enjoys my passion for it. But when it comes to the both of us being on the same historical focus, I would say that we most certainly are not. She would much rather be focused on something else. She seems like a a good sport at least then anyway. Oh yes, most definitely.
Speaker: Seems ah a parallel between the town of Gettysburg and all of its giant history just outside and Ligonier, which is also a very cute, small town and its historical site, which is, well, perhaps not having the the same historical grandeur or mythology as Gettysburg. It's still really well kept, excellent museum and a blast of it. So again, I'll recommend anyone to, if you're anywhere near Fort Ligonier to go visit that.
Speaker: Yeah, please do. Yeah. Keep Matt employed. Thank you. So this is referred to as the Forbes expedition, the Forbes campaign. a lot of times it is in at least these days.
Speaker: So that makes me think the first thing we need to do before we talk about any of the the the road building, any of the battles, the skirmishes, the strategic objectives, we have to talk about Forbes himself.
Speaker: So could you give us a rundown on who he was, what his his qualifications for leading this campaign might have been, and what he might have been thinking as he's assembling his team and getting ready to to find a way to achieve the task of destroying Fort Duquesne?
Speaker: Most certainly. John Forbes is a Scottish officer. He really cuts his teeth in the War of Austrian Secession. Now, when I talk about that, I mean, he acts as a quartermaster, so he's focused very much on logistics. He is in some very pivotal battles. And when I say involved, he is actually up front, close and personal There's even times when he is riding next to some very larger than life figures of the historical period like John Ligonier in these massive cavalry charges in the War of Austrian Secession. So he does have experience on the field of battle throughout that war. And also, as I had mentioned, him being a quartermaster, he is focused on looking at logistics and how to supply an army, move an army and keep it in the field. throughout a campaign season, whether that be moving it, like I had said, but then also when you get to difficult weather or where you have to put your troops out for a winter season or something like that, he is going to be very much focused on those elements of a campaign. So Forbes, he does have some
Speaker: some friends in high places that help him with his eventual situation that we will see right when he is tasked with the Forbes campaign or the conquest of Fort Duquesne. So really when Forbes is going to be putting together ah this force, putting together his people for it, he is going to be Well, I would say this for the campaign against Fort Duquesne, you may even be able to look at it as the Cinderella campaign. What I mean by that is this is the stepsister or the, you know, the stepchild that doesn't get any help.
Speaker: Huh? So he's going to have with him for mainly his army iss gonna have to rely on a lot of provincial forces, but he's also going to have Highlanders, the Royal American Regiment specifically, and then rely on Native American relationships. So that's going to also call upon his political prowess with colonial governors. It's also then going to mean that he's going to need the right commanders in the correct spots. On top of it all, John Forbes is also becoming incredibly ill during the beginnings of this campaign with a mystery illness that some of us, well, and the historical community that is, is still not sure what exactly he had.
Speaker: There, of course, are speculations on that, but we do know he's in a very difficult spot as this campaign begins, and it only gets worse as the campaign continues.
Speaker: So whenever he's going to assemble some of his his core leaders, some of them are going to be, one very specifically is Colonel Henry Bouquet, who is a Swiss officer. He had background as well as ah as a veteran, and he's going to come over to help with this in his regiment. The 60th Regiment is going to be a part of this this campaign as well.
Speaker: Then you're going to have other officers involved in this, such as Archibald Montgomery of the 77th Highlanders. Then you start to go down the line to other officers within the provincial regiments like Colonel James Byrd. Then you get into the Virginia Regiment ah with the 2nd Virginia Regiment, excuse me, with William Byrd.
Speaker: And then ah the 1st Virginia Regiment, which of course is going to have Colonel George Washington. We've heard that name before, I think. Yeah, I know, right? So Forbes is going to have to figure out how to not only get this army across very difficult terrain, keep it in the field, but also navigate these very difficult situations with provincial tensions provincial thought processes even and and also of course all the different officers and personalities that are involved and get to fort duquesne and attack it and hopefully take it before the end of the campaign season oh well seriously ill so yeah not yeah easy at all his when i was looking as his to-do list there
Speaker: Yes, yes. and i And I think it is also important to keep in mind um for those history lovers who are out there and something when it comes to Fort Duquesne, many people know this campaign because it results in the fall of Fort Duquesne. And subconsciously, we kind of think, oh, so every decision Forbes made must have been the right one. But I like to think that as we go through today, we'll probably analyze some of those decisions.
Speaker: And also, I think it's important that listeners remember that this is not... a done deal. It is not ah Fort Duquesne is not just going to collapse when Forbes walks in.
Speaker: But instead, this is still very much an active situation for these people making decisions as they go along with the information that they have. Yeah, that's a ah good point. We have enjoyed thinking about some of the what ifs as we go through this war. I think this war, especially among many others, is is so ripe for what ifs. You know, it was the last time the French were really in running for dominance of North America. the One of the last times that these...
Speaker: ah native tribes had enough strength to play off the different European powers and to stand up to them. So yeah, there's so many fascinating aspects in this war to think about that. And yes, excellent reminder, just because we know the end result doesn't make the the story any less thrilling and yeah, doesn't make every right every decision correct. Yeah, we have to we have to imagine like that Fort Duquesne, we don't know how it's going to end. So I hope our listeners just wipe your brains right now because we're to tell you a heck of a story.
Speaker: So, Matt, you mentioned about – you were talking about Forbes and how he had to cross the terrain. And I know you you brought up, you know, he had to not only manage several different officers' personalities, but also the different companies of men that he had with him. I'm interested in, you know, like when you're searching about the Forbes expedition, you hear about Forbes Road. And when you... research Braddock's expedition, you hear about Braddock's road. So I guess, yeah could you give us a little insight as to why, why did Forbes pick a somewhat different route than Braddock? And was there any politics involved in that decision? And, or like, did it make getting supplies easier or just, you know, any, any general information on that?
Speaker: So that's a great question because there's a few different I would say thoughts that you can look at this from, you know, perspectives when it comes to Forbes decision here.
Speaker: And I think we have to put our ourself in the shoes of these people, whether that be General John Forbes or perhaps Colonel Washington, who had experienced a lot of this frontier fighting throughout the mid 1750s. So, of course, if we would go back and for those of you who are listening out there, go back to the Braddock expedition episode. Listen to it again. But on, you know, when General Braddock and his force failed to take Fort Duquesne and are attacked on July 9th of 1755, they built this road up and there's this devastating defeat. Now that road that had once been destroyed.
Speaker: what was going to be the siege road and leading to the fall of Fort Duquesne now actually becomes this artery into the settlements and into the colonial frontier for the British colonies. So places like Virginia, ah Maryland, all throughout there, now the French and their Native American allies can use that as a thoroughfare to raid these settlements to attack and and keep the frontier, the British frontier, really at bay and roll it back towards these the eastern parts of what we know of the colonies.
Speaker: And throughout 1756 1757, there's the Virginia regiment tasked with protecting so much of this Western frontier over 300 miles of frontier. And it's not easy for this group to do that. That's a huge amount of terrain and who's going to be one of the guys in charge trying to do this.
Speaker: none other than George Washington. And so Colonel Washington, by the seventeen especially he's a veteran of this warfare. he had been he had made that trip to Fort he's at fort Necessity. he's on Braddock's expedition. And then and he's out in the middle of nowhere kind of on the front lines trying to to protect this frontier with the Virginia Regiment.
Speaker: So by 1758, you're going to see ah George Washington having a very different view of the road and the route they should take compared to what General Forbes will want to do. So whenever Washington looks at this situation, there has been the the historical thought that Washington is involved in the Ohio Company, and there are people in Virginia who have certain investments in the Ohio Territory, and they want the Braddock Road because it will lead to their financial gain.
Speaker: And, ah you know, I can see that. my My thought with that, though, would also be they have, at this point, after Fort Necessity and Braddock's defeat, they have not been able to hold the forks.
Speaker: why would those same people think that this expedition is just going to be the magic bullet that would lead to their their success, their financial gains? Sure. I could imagine how, yeah, maybe after failure to, well, I guess they technically beat the French to the forks, but not really with any force, but that failure and then Braddock's catastrophe, ah perhaps, well, I guess, I don't know. Perhaps those investors would have just counted it as a loss or like, it would be nice to recover that, but you know,
Speaker: We can't expect that. Like you said, like this expedition is going to be a magic bullet that gets all our money back, perhaps. i't Exactly. So whereas Washington, could that be a thought in his head? Maybe.
Speaker: But in this circumstance, when he's looking at this route, he's probably also looking at it from a military perspective. We already know the Braddock Road. We've been that way. I've helped build it. My troops know it. we can It's going to just require minimal clearing. So he's viewing it in in those different capacities. Forbes, when he looks at this road, he starts to see a he starts to see a conspiracy that he writes about. Now, also, this might be the reason why he's saying this might be a little bit lost in translation.
Speaker: And why is that? Well, General Forbes, as I mentioned earlier, is incredibly sick. So sick that he will even say that he can't get to his desk to write. His aide will say the general hasn't been able to make it over to his desk. He is in a terrible condition. So this automatically starts to lead to communication breakdown on the Forbes campaign. His second in command, Colonel Henry Bouquet, is starting to kind of he's he's making decisions with the idea that, hey, it's it's it's commander's intent. I'm kind of i'm acting on the capacity of the general.
Speaker: ah But we have these gaps. And even when we start to look at the letters, you know, Forbes is saying, you know I trust you, Colonel Bouquet, to make decisions here. um When he's getting messages, Bouquet is kind of the middleman between some of these provincial officers like Washington and Forbes.
Speaker: And Forbes hears rumors that this army And these native the Native American allies that are supposed to come with them. He's hearing rumors that they won't march unless they take the Braddock road.
Speaker: Now, how is this being funneled to him? Again, these are things that are coming through him um through hearsay. There's other you know kind of these roundabout ways rather than being told directly to him or he's experiencing them on the front. So, really, throughout those summer months of 1758, as Forbes decides to choose a road and how he's going to make his strategy forward, he's also formatting, okay, he knows he's eventually going to have to get to the middle of the colony and ah make a point of decision. Now, what I'll do to to preface before we get to that point is that Forbes decides that as he leaves Philadelphia, the starting point, he's going to go out to forts that are Loudon and Littleton that were built the last few years before this. And then from there, go to a place called Ray's Town and construct a deposit there, a fort. And the idea is he's following a military treatise that actually equates his campaign to a siege.
Speaker: And the siege, you know, the idea of a siege is as you get closer to your goal... You build parallels that protect your forces so that way they can continue to move forward, but also gain the ground that you have advanced. So that's what the fort is. The idea that, okay, if we move up and we build a deposit here, now I can control the frontier territory that we've advanced through.
Speaker: But at Raystown, Forbes now has to make a decision. Will he move over the Allegheny Mountains and the Laurel Hill and build a new road? Or will he drop down to Fort Cumberland and then take the old Braddock Road?
Speaker: This is really the kind of the nexus of that argument I think you're you're bringing up. And the fact that Washington is very much a vocal proponent for that Fort Cumberland and Braddock Road.
Speaker: But Forbes is taking all these other rumors into account. Also, the fact that he he seems to be Rather, how should I say, he gets along with the Pennsylvanian legislature and yeah some of those larger figures in the colony pretty well. So maybe they have a little bit of influence or pull with with him. and eventually,
Speaker: What is going to happen at Raystown is Forbes feels that the Virginians have created this political a conspiracy that they're trying to force him into the Braddock Road.
Speaker: So he decides instead he is going to utilize the a new passage to create over the mountains with the with the idea that it would also be a way to surprise the French to a certain extent, come from a direction that they might not be watching the.
Speaker: Only issue is that is if you're building a new road, it's going to take time. um So you you start to see that there's there's all these moving parts when it comes to the Forbes campaign. there's just There's the difficult terrain that now as he chooses this road, it means you're literally going to be ascending mountains. You're going to be chopping down trees that are... are as some quoted hard as iron um as they they move through the wilderness. And then you're also dealing with the political elements of these colonies and the different personalities.
Speaker: ah So truly the Forbes campaign by the summer of 1758, specifically the beginning of August, is in this very difficult position of what is actually going to happen next. And because Forbes is so sick,
Speaker: A lot of his officers don't necessarily know the exact plan. Now, keep in mind, like, think about this. It's August. You only have how many more months in the campaign season. And by that point, Forbes still has not given the official order to to take the road over the mountains. It's either right at the beginning of August or end of July. He sends his letters off that he says, OK, yes, we are doing this. But up until that point, there had been no actual choice, which is kind of crazy to think about. Yeah.
Speaker: So I was looking at Google Maps just now trying to find out where Rays Town is. I see there's there's a Rays Town Lake. Is that roughly the same location where the historical Rays Town was?
Speaker: So the best thing to do is actually Bedford. If you know the town of Bedford, you know, Fort Bedford where that was. So that is where the, the, the fort itself was because it actually gets called Fort Bedford later. It's originally the post at Ray's town.
Speaker: Okay. So I'm looking at that. and for listeners, that is almost directly West of modern day York, but it's still nestled right in those Appalachian mountains. So.
Speaker: na Now it's it's not too far south from modern day Pittsburgh, so Fort Duquesne. So you can see how the idea of going down to link up with Braddock's Road, that would be quite a, for a while you'd be walking in the opposite direction as Fort Duquesne to get to that road only to come back up north. So I can see how ah Distance wise, it's closer to just go right through Pennsylvania to get to Fort Duquesne, even though, of course, yeah, you'll be having to make a new road and that'll slow things down. So, yeah, you got the the well-worn way that is a detour or you can literally blaze your own path straight towards the enemy on a new route. I also can't imagine that building a new road is that subtle of an action either. Like I'm sure that that would probably draw would happen to ever like attention.
Speaker: It's not like sneak in single file on one of the Indian trails. It is. No, no, Yeah, yeah it's it's as they, and you know, it's, we also have to remember that the French, even when the British get to Raystown, the French and their native allies have parties out there that are watching Forbes. um They know where he is almost the entirety of the march from Bedford until the eventual push to Fort Duquesne. And that is, they are watching the Braddock Road as well. We have we have accounts that they say that they'll actually send out to places like uh close to fort necessity because they want to watch the braddock road to see if they're coming that way but then they'll because they don't see anyone they go okay they're coming the other way you know um so this idea that you know we i i had mentioned i have a surprise it's a new route it it might catch them unaware that's a possibility but the french and especially their native american allies they know this terrain They know how to scout. they They're able to travel quickly. So really, they are truly watching Forbes and his road-building activities throughout the entirety of this movement. Now, when I visited Fort Ligonier, I remember one of the the dioramas in the museum.
Speaker: i think it showed like this road being built going up a kind of a typical West ah Western Pennsylvania like steep hillside kind of ravine. And there's like a horse or wagon that's like falling down as like part of the road gives way.
Speaker: So with that in mind, what kind of challenges or or accidents or delays would have come up from having to take these winding paths up and down the mountains? I'm sure they had to ford some rivers too, perhaps. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: I mean, a lot of this as one great example is there's as they're trying to get over the Allegheny Mountains, uh, They literally come to a standstill at one point, and it's because there's an engineer who finds this this gap, which ends up having his name attached to it, which will be called Roar's Gap.
Speaker: That's the only reason they're able to get up over this certain part of the mountains. So, I mean, this is, it's treacherous. It's difficult to find even just areas that are simple enough. And I i can't even say simple that are, or that you can cut to make it that your wagons, your artillery, your horses, and your troops can move up over these mountains, then come down, well, the mountains, and then up over the Laurel Hill.
Speaker: When when they wrote and said the endless mountains, they meant it. You know, this is this is going to be a Herculean effort. You know, Braddock had to deal with a lot of similar situations. But now Forbes in this this road building monster that he has now taken on, they're going to send out crews and parties. They're going to have to chop down these trees. As I mentioned earlier, they have that quote that says the trees are as hard as iron. They're breaking their axes. They constantly are asking for more tools to breath be brought up so that they can chop down trees, clear out the roads. And I'm sure that's coming all the way from Philadelphia. And, you know, there's nothing close by for some of those replacements of supplies and equipment, I'm sure. Yeah, very much so. And like, so a lot of that they'll have to, they'll have blacksmiths that they might bring with them or traveling forges that they can make repairs on the road while to their tools. But still, like you said,
Speaker: You have to bring a lot of this out from those eastern settlements, which makes this that much harder. Every inch you take into the western frontier, you are now extending your supply line. And that's going to be difficult because also you're getting closer and closer to winter. So every day that goes by, you are losing time and what will be the eventual, hopefully, a window for a siege. So, yeah, they they have to build this road, chop down trees, forward rivers, get over down and up Gali's ravines and whatnot, build these corduroy roads, move through swamps that they talk about. it It's this is difficult stuff. um And it's you know, it's we kind of just know Route 30 today and automatically go, oh, well, it's not that bad. But they're going through some some rough stuff while they're moving through the wilderness of Western Pennsylvania in 1758. Yeah, certainly.
Speaker: yeah certainly ah Yeah, no, we really take for granted the modern infrastructure and roads. Eisenhower's interstate highway system. It's it's nice. I i just took a road trip up to northern Michigan and I didn't have to think. I just didn't.
Speaker: I'll just follow the highway. It'll be nice and easy. Don't have to worry about fording rivers or getting lost in dense woods with ironwood trees. I mean, you're talking about bridges and just, you know, we take up a bridge just over like a small stream or ravine kind of.
Speaker: We just take it for granted. um And then also, you know, they talk about after they build these sections of road, then the Colonel Bouquet or General Forbes will go over it and they'll write back to each other and they'll say,
Speaker: The road's awful. Like, what were you guys doing? You know, like every part of it, it's I feel like every time they get over it, they're like, it has to be redone. This is this is bad, you know. So you're now you're dealing with some of those setbacks as well. Every time it rains, it washes out parts of the road. It's just this. is And it rains a lot. and It's a slog.
Speaker: Yeah. So going back to something you had said a little bit earlier, which I really liked and hadn't thought about it in that way before, how Forbes advanced, he's thinking of it in terms of a siege and like those parallel lines protecting your way as you work closer, as you set up the batteries, as you prepare to assault.
Speaker: So he's building these strong points. He's moving from strong point to strong point and starting to build new forts to protect the advance, something that Braddock had not done. And that will bring us, I think, now to Fort Ligonier itself. So they're almost out of the mountain ranges. Ligonier is right between, I think, the last two ridges of the Appalachian Mountains, Chestnut and Laura, I believe. Right.
Speaker: So they're constructing a fort there. And that's your your home ground. So tell us a little bit about this fort in particular, the construction of it, its placement.
Speaker: And then i know right after we'll we'll cover that, we'll get into some action here for our listeners, several several events. So give us a some detail on on the construction and situation of Fort Ligonier.
Speaker: Certainly. So, you know, after they they brave these mountains and they come down, they decide to establish a post at Loyal Hanna. Now, this was not supposed to be the spot. Instead, there was actually ah a spot about 10 miles off, a little bit further, that had been looked at and said, oh, this is actually a better spot than Loyal Hanna. If we can, we should move the army there and maybe we should build a spot. We should build a deposit there. But this is, again, where Forbes illness kind of comes into play, that he's not necessarily being very responsive. He's he's back along the road because in August. there was this scare you could say about his life. And that's, we have a letter to Colonel Henry Bouquet, who's up at the front kind of overseeing this road building, the movement that will eventually be to Lohanna. And he gets a letter from the main aid of Forbes that says to send back Lieutenant Grant, because Forbes trusts him as a surgeon. But don't tell anyone.
Speaker: Just send him as quick as you can. Again, I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but he's like, please just don't tell anybody about this. So this kind of leaves Bouquet. He's but kind of high and dry at the moment um because now Forbes, if Forbes dies out in the middle of nowhere, ah how does the campaign continue?
Speaker: But surprisingly, Forbes is going to rally somewhat. And then again, he kind of puts this emphasis on Bouquet and says, you make the decisions. you You know, I trust everything and anywhere that you are. And I am not. I trust your decision making.
Speaker: ah So whenever Bouquet and the the groups move up to what we know as Loyal Hannah, they choose, they find a small area that they deem to be appropriate for a site that they can entrench. Now, why they probably deemed it appropriate was because as early as 1727, there had been Native American activity in the area of what we know as Ligonier or Loyal Hannah today. And there may have been a Native American village somewhere nearby or even where the Fort
Speaker: was established, meaning that some of this area may have been cleared and the army chose that deposit. There were springs that were there. There were even some old cabins from the village or camp that had been there. So you may be seeing a more open type of area that they can entrench, dig in and fortify that spot.
Speaker: But it will constantly be throughout the end of the summer in through September into October that you will see a fortified camp begin to be erected and then a small fort placed within the fortified camp.
Speaker: But that that actual fortification that we know is the fort proper. So if you think of rings of defenses, almost like a target symbol, the outer rings are our entrenchments or outer walls that we have. And then the fort itself would be the center. It would be the bullseye.
Speaker: And that forward is not going to be start to be established until the end of September or end into October. So you see this again. There's still this kind of hesitation. Should we move forward and actually entrench there?
Speaker: Bouquet is writing back. Should we do this? Should we stay? Should we go? What do you want us to do? What's the story? ah And it kind of turns into this real messy situation that we have in early September and throughout those fall months. of the establishment of what we know as the post at Loyal Hannah or Fort Ligonier. What will eventually lead to the really the staying at Fort Ligonier or the remaining there and entrenching and building up the fort there is going to be in September, September 14th, there is an attack made on Fort Duquesne by a major James Grant.
Speaker: The whole point of this, what will eventually be known as Grant's defeat, was Grant was sent off with the idea of doing some reconnaissance at Fort Duquesne.
Speaker: The idea is that as he gets out there, he believes he can force the fort. Now, there are some thoughts that maybe he had wishy-washy orders, and he kind of took that as, you know, if you see an opportunity, take it.
Speaker: Other people say, no, it was only a reconnaissance mission. Whatever happens, he gets outside of Fort Duquesne, feels that he can force the fort, he moves to attack it. There's a lot of weird early morning mishaps that happened to him. Uh, guys running into each other cause they're trying to do a surprise attack early in the morning. they, they get lost in the woods. There's eventually Grant marches his troops down and starts playing the bagpipes. And now everyone knows that they're there and it ends up being this terrible route of Grant's force, uh, and almost a mini Braddock's defeat that happens. Um,
Speaker: Grant himself is captured. And at this point, now, if the French didn't know Forbes was coming, which they did, they most certainly know he he's knocking at the door. And you're woken up by bagpipes. yeah You know, the enemy is to alert your door.
Speaker: Yes. But at this point, now that that is mid-September, Bouquet starts to pull back some of those advanced parties that were at that other site back to what we know as Loyal Hannah and really focuses on the Ford itself there and will await that.
Speaker: General Forbes' arrival, ah which will not happen still for another month. And to remind our listeners, you know, now as he's saying we're in September, we've seen very little large scale action in the war from, you know, late September, we'll just say October August.
Speaker: really to like April or May. I mean, we did see one ah one notable exception was Rigaud's raid on Fort William Henry in March of 1757, where there was about, I think, 1,200 or so attackers.
Speaker: Outside of that, I'm having trouble thinking of any you know, 1000 plus ah large troop movements in the the colder months in Northern North America. So at this point, you know, if we're we're pretending we don't know how this is going to end again, we could see how like, okay, you know, they they made one attempt kind of not with their full strength, but they They tried to to hit to raid Fort Duquesne, take it by surprise, but that failed. you know Surely this is going to be the it for the campaigning season.
Speaker: So keep that in mind that historically speaking, it's very unlikely for a large force to be taking action after this point. Yeah, we're starting to run into those. the the winter The winter is looming. That's the big thing. And keep in mind that as we talk about this army, even during this point, Washington is still down at at like at Fort Cumberland. he He was waiting in August saying, hey, which way are we taking? um He will not actually come up to what we know as Fort Ligonier until the end of October. So, I mean, you're you're still getting the you're getting the confluence of all these forces converging at Fort Ligonier, and it it it doesn't really happen. You don't get that full strength until really the end of October and into November. um And even after Grant's defeat, we see the French and their Native American allies then go on the ah they go on the offensive with the idea of coming out and raiding the post at Loyal Hannah, Fort Ligonier.
Speaker: And the reason, and just so everyone out there knows, the reason why I say the two names is just because they are the same place, but 58, it is called the Post-Loyal Hanna. It isn't until later that it's named Fort Ligonier.
Speaker: So the French and their Native American allies, after Grant's defeat, about a month later, on October 12th, they say, well, let's go out, slow General Forbes down.
Speaker: So they get outside of the Post-Loyal Hanna. Fort Ligonier. And they decide to raid, take any horses or cattle that they can. That's the main objective, because if you take the horses, this army doesn't move. If you take cattle, they don't eat. And when you start to to hit at the supply elements of the campaign, you are doing just as much damage as, let's say, a pitch battle. out lining you know lining up or having an engagement that kills kill soldiers. But by taking food sources, by taking the ability to move, you are doing a great deal of damage. and on
Speaker: Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Oh, I just said certainly. Yeah, it makes me think of Rego's raid in March on for whom Henry they burn like 300 or something bateau and outbuildings and that just killed any offensive movement for the British in that sector for that year. So absolutely targeting the supplies, the horses more devastating than just a ah human body count.
Speaker: Right. And when the French get out to the to the site, they see that the inner fort is not even completed. ah So the leader of this force, we have a letter that says he one group of the soldiers go and deal with the animals while another group moves on the entrenchments. And at that point, Colonel James Byrd is the gentleman in charge of the fort on October 12th. Colonel Henry Bouquet isn't there. He's actually on the wrong side of Laurel Hill. He can hear the cannons being fired from the battle, but is not at the fort. General Forbes, sick, back along the road. Washington isn't up there yet. So it's actually Colonel Byrd who sends out troops to go deal with the enemy. They get repulsed. They retreat back into the fort and...
Speaker: Truly, the fort itself does do its job on October 12th because they just hunker down and they open up their artillery and they start lobbing shells and shot at the enemy to keep them at at the tree line.
Speaker: And the French will say, you know, they write a letter that says because they were exposed to the fire of the cannons, the artillery pieces, they just rather than trying to do any further damage, they take all the horses on that are at that site and they depart. So they do their job. They don't take the fort, but that was never the the the main goal.
Speaker: They weren't coming in with cannons. Exactly. It just would have been the icing on the cake. You know, hey, if we happen to show up and we you know we take the fort, the... the Troops that there on the British side all leave. Hey, by all means, we take prisoners. Great. That sure demise of the campaign this season. ah But by taking the horses, they do they do exactly what they want to. At this point, then the French and their native allies are headed back to Fort Duquesne. They have a lot of the horses.
Speaker: And now we're again kind of stuck in this holding pattern throughout the end of October into November. The rest of the army is going to come up. They're going try and finish elements of the fort.
Speaker: the various entrenchments, fortifications. Washington will arrive at the end of October. Forbes will not get there until the beginning of November.
Speaker: He's going to be carried in He's incredibly sick. But the point of no return may already be passed at this point. And ah Forbes will write several letters. He's writing to the various legislatures in the colonies. He's also writing to his higher ups. He will say that he was told that the best time for a campaign was the fall season, October and November. um There's two thoughts to that. You know, maybe he was thinking that the the leaves will be down and of course he can see the enemy better. He'll be able to move through the woods easier. um But there is also the thought of he's a logistics guy. He was a quartermaster. He knows that bad weather is going to halt this campaign just as much as an enemy force can.
Speaker: Um, so maybe we see a little bit of, well, this is, I, I was told I could do this, you know, things like that. But once you get into November, very specifically November 11th of 1758, general Forbes does call his officers together for a council of war. What are we going to do now? Keep in mind, one of those officers is Colonel Washington.
Speaker: And if we go back to that pivotal August month, whenever those decisions were made, Washington had written a letter because he had an in-person meeting with Colonel Bouquet. And Colonel Bouquet said, I'm going to need you to put all your thoughts of what you have in writing.
Speaker: And he did. And Washington wrote down and said, if we do not take the Braddock Road, and we build a new road, we're going to be stuck out here for the winter. And I'm fearful that when that happens, we will not be able to feed the animals. We won't be able to get the artillery back over the mountains. We won't be able to feed the troops. all this All this is now coming to fruition from what Washington had wrote a few months earlier.
Speaker: When they go into this council of war, Forbes is going to ask his officers what their opinions are. And they come up with a pro and con list, just like we do today. They made a a positives and negatives list. And they say the sole course that prudence dictates is that they stay the Fort Ligonier, the post at Lohanna for the winter. They go into winter quarters. at And and that's that's the decision. They come out of it and they say the negatives outweigh the positives of if we would move ahead
Speaker: the the The negatives of if we fail out there, there's going to be a we could have disaster. So they actually decide to stay at Fort Leoneer on November 11th.
Speaker: And I could only imagine Washington walking out of that meeting with a look on his face was, you know. I had said this. I wish we would have taken the Braddock road. Now we're going be stuck out here.
Speaker: The idea that we're going in into winter quarters. That going to probably have to send some of this army back along the road that they can go in and be lodged places because trying to keep an over 5,000 man army the middle of nowhere in the middle of the frontier and feed them is just not possible. Yeah. So you then have to keep a bare bones garrison for the most part at the the fort. you had Because you got to watch your artillery. Who knows if the French will make another sortie out. You know, there's a lot of what ifs.
Speaker: um And also, if I might add, just during this time, you know, Forbes had been also negotiating. with a lot of he'd been sending out emissaries and diplomats specifically for a treaty negotiation at Easton, which was hoping for the ceasefire and of the Ohio Nation's for his campaign.
Speaker: So whenever he goes into that council of war, they actually know that the negotiations have gone well with the Native Americans, because in that positive and negatives list, they list that they say, if we go and attack Fort Duquesne and fail, it may take those from the treaty negotiations who had just essentially set a ceasefire, it might turn them against us.
Speaker: So even with those negotiations that Forbes is having kind of working on the outskirts, it's still not enough to make him push for Fort Duquesne this campaign season.
Speaker: And again, that's on November 11th of 1758. And of course, what happens next is going to change the trajectory of this and entire campaign. And that'll be actually the very next day.
Speaker: which is going to be on November 12th of 1758. So you just walked us through quite a few of back and forth moments. You know, if this is, it's like a seesaw of defeat and doom and then, Oh, but a ray of hope. And then, Oh, but winter's here. It's the best story, man. History is the best story ever told. Don't let anyone tell you different out there, folks. Yeah.
Speaker: it's a but This is a lot better than Loudon's journey to take Louisburg. So it's ah it's a little bit refreshing to hear the first sign of adversity that the army doesn't turn around and go home. So, yeah, a little little different from what typically talk about. Yeah, we have we have covered our our fair share of British...
Speaker: failures or underwhelming endeavors at this point. But now that we're in 1758, the winds of change are turning. And what we're discussing right now is a pivotal part of the changing fortunes of the war.
Speaker: So... British have set up shop. They've repelled an attack at some cost. The, uh, looks like the season's too advanced, but they have, uh, they have some good news from negotiations with the natives, uh, that, uh, they're starting to make peace with the British to leave, uh,
Speaker: leave the sides of the French, especially after I imagined the Battle of Fort Ligonier. The ones who had participated, I'm sure most went straight home after that with their their horses and their their supplies bring back to their villages. So French forces suddenly looking a lot, a lot more isolated and weaker.
Speaker: Yes, just very very much so, especially after both Grant's defeat and October 12th, the many of those Native American nations and those warriors are going back whether that be down the Ohio River or to the Delaware, various Delaware Lenape settlements from where they had they had been.
Speaker: So, yeah, you're looking at it starting to get pretty bare bones also for those at Fort Duquesne as well. Now, do you have any idea if the French, would it have been preposterous to them to think that the British actually would end up advancing? Or when it did happen, was it was it expected? to they like, oh, yeah, we figured they'd try it one more time? Or was this ah a surprise to the French that an attempt would be made in November? I think it was also kind of to use a term that you just, there's this seesaw, you know, they, they see these, that they're able to go out, uh, and, ah kind of successfully raid Fort Ligonier. then there, there's letters that say that the native, the native warriors are, um, even more,
Speaker: courageous and more uh they want to be a part of this uh then there's ones that say then it's ah it feels like a few days later they're like oh well a bunch of them just went home you know i mean it's it's it's it's a seesaw for both sides really about and this is the the elements of war that occur you know it's never this just straight arrow um instead it's this It's this constant navigation of these difficult situations. So even the French, they know Fort Duquesne is kind of on an island within itself. In 1758, a lot of the supplies for it was coming mainly from the Illinois country rather than down from Canada. Even the forces that were involved mainly at Grant's defeat and then on the attack on Fort Ligonier in October, they were from the Illinois country. It was a Captain Aubrey who led the attack from with his Illinois troops to attack Fort Ligonier. Yeah. So a lot of those, you know, once this happens, the French also linear read the gentleman who's in charge of Fort Duquesne. He starts to send these people home because we're getting close to winter. He knows he can't feed them either.
Speaker: So you're seeing also this D. I'm trying to think of a ah better word for this, but at Fort Duquesne, they're really, you know, they're they're bringing everything. We're slowing down for the winter season.
Speaker: And I think they probably did think, you know, Forbes is going to stop. There's the the winter is too close there. They're really we've we've pushed them. We've raided them. We've slowed them down.
Speaker: It would take a very it would be very difficult for them to get out here. But at the same time, they're also writing that their fort is tumbling down. um So you have like this kind of Fort Duquesne is just it's it's also in trouble just because of its situation um from the difficulties that the French are facing as well. So really, it's yeah you know, I think it is this seesaw kind of like you mentioned earlier.
Speaker: And not just the the troop and supply situation, but also just its a natural location. i think it was more so in 1755, some source I had read, but the spring flooding of the rivers would cause damage every year to Fort Duquesne. So yeah not only ah the the Indians packing up and leaving, not only the Troops having to leave and get dispersed and low supplies, but the weather, s it it will harm the British, but it'll also do damage on the the precarious fort at at the forks. 100%. also, they'll see the same problems with it Fort Pitt later on.
Speaker: Spoiler. Yeah. Spoiler alert for those. We don't know about that. Never mind. Sorry. We don't know. Fort Duquesne remains. But um I think if we return to, you know, to November 12th, that's and as I love to say, history has impeccable timing because General Forbes on November 11th had made that decision.
Speaker: The next morning, they're going to go into half rations. They're going to start giving out orders that's going to put in process this going into winter quarters. The campaign's over.
Speaker: It has been a failure again. Fort Duquesne still is in the hand are in the hands of the French. Just like Braddock's defeat, now the French still hold the Forks of the Ohio after all this kind these efforts to take Fort Duquesne.
Speaker: But then there's a small group of French soldiers as well as a larger group of Native Americans who come out with the idea to raid the post again. They have no clue that General Forbes has made this decision.
Speaker: At this point, we have multiple accounts that say maybe they're discovered about seven miles off, four miles off. um Either way, this party is discovered at that point.
Speaker: They may be harassing some grass guards or horse guards that are out. You're going to have a group of Virginians under Lieutenant ah Colonel Mercer, George Mercer, who is sent out to go deal with this group, push them from the field, remove them from the area.
Speaker: So they go up over the nearby hillside across from the fort today. And there are reports, Washington will even write in his remarks later, that the musket firing is continuing. and not only is it continuing, but it's getting louder.
Speaker: So that means that Colonel Mercer is giving ground. He needs help. With permission from the general, as Washington put it He gets another 500 volunteers. They're mainly going to be of his Virginia regiment.
Speaker: And we believe what happens next is he follows the loyal Hannah down with the idea he can surround or come up behind the enemy. Now, the reason why we think this is because Forbes writes that he sent one group out and then he sent another to surround this force.
Speaker: So Washington, we think, is moving down the the stream, and he's going to cut up a run. But while he's doing this, keep in mind that when he goes out, this is this is not just like middle of the day. it is actually getting very late at night. It's dark when when this is going on.
Speaker: And Washington is keeping the musket fire off to his left, and he's using that as a guiding light to where the engagement is going on. And as he cuts up this run,
Speaker: As he's trying to continue to follow where the engagement is going on, sending out scouts, suddenly the musket fire stops. So now Washington is flying blind.
Speaker: What happened? Is Colonel Mercer defeated? Did he engage with the French? Are the French defeated? Are they still out there? Did they retreat back to the fort? There's probably all these thoughts going through his head as well as his soldiers. Either way, they're still moving forward in this very dark, low visibility situation.
Speaker: And as they move through the woods, perhaps someone sees a figure dart from one tree to another. Shadows play tricks on the eyes. There's a flash of a musket and then a hot fire suddenly ensues because the natural instinct is when you're fired upon is to fire back. Of course, these are the enemy in front of us. And as I had said, a hot firing ensues. At this point, Washington is likely taking, he's assessing the situation, where it what ground is around him, what can he see. His Virginians, they're they're good woodsmen, they begin to fan out to the trees, taking deadly accuracy where they can see
Speaker: And perhaps he hears a familiar voice, or perhaps he sees in that flash of a musket, a blue and red uniform, and he realizes that this is not the enemy. These are not the French and the Native American allies that had come out to raid the post. Instead, he has run in to Colonel Mercer and his troops, and now they are firing upon each other. Upon realizing this, Washington is going to move down the line, knocking up muskets out of the way, yelling for a ceasefire, trying to stop any further bloodshed.
Speaker: He will later write that it put his life in the most jeopardy it had ever been before or since. But as that smoke clears, and perhaps as he and Colonel Mercer meet on the field and begin to take and said take in and assess the situation, they realize there's been 40 casualties. We believe the death toll is anywhere between 12 and 16. Wounded, of course, adds to the casualty rate being about 40. And and This moment of this friendly fire that they've just experienced, while a terrible situation, terrible loss of life, there is a silver lining. And that is they found a few of those stragglers from that French party that have been either left behind or were captured in the first engagement. We're still not too sure.
Speaker: They're then brought back to the post-Loyal Hanna and they give vital information about Fort Duquesne. Everything that we had just mentioned about that, the difficulties for the French, the fort is tumbling down. They are low on their their troops because they've sent several of them home. there The Native American allies have gone home for the winter. They're low on food, low on ammunition, everything.
Speaker: that is now going to be enough to cause General Forbes to counterman his order. And he's going to now say, we're not staying here in winter quarters. We're going to move immediately.
Speaker: So this moment that is the friendly fire incident and these prisoners, this information that is taken, whether that be from the fallout of the incident, going out for those for that enemy in the first place,
Speaker: It's that moment that actually snatches the ah the victory that what we will see here in just a moment from the jaws of defeat. Because Forbes will move his army forward.
Speaker: They'll move with the idea that perhaps they will have to still lay siege to Fort Duquesne. But as they arrive outside of it, they're going to see that smoke is rising in the distance from where the fort had been, from the forks of the Ohio and those three rivers, so crucial. during this to the Ohio country and during this entire what we know as war in Western Pennsylvania.
Speaker: And they find that Fort Duquesne has been burned. The French have said, we know that Forbes is on his way. Resistance is futile. They burn their fort to the ground with the idea, if we can't have it, neither can you. And Forbes is carried into the forks of the Ohio and claims it for king and country and will nate give it the name we are so familiar with as Pittsburgh. But as he was Scottish, there's a good chance he would have called it Pittsburgh as opposed to Pittsburgh.
Speaker: And at this moment, we now see that we have finally success over the Forks of the Ohio in 1758, in this advanced season, this yeah when everything looked lost yet again of the Three Rivers, Fort Duquesne is finally conquered.
Speaker: First comment, you could definitely do an audio drama. You could you could tell you, ah you know, your stuff and you've been working in there that field for what you said, 10 years. yes Yeah, you're weaving that account. I know the listeners definitely enjoyed that.
Speaker: Second comment, we see, we talked about the seesaw, the back and forth that really ah defines this expedition. And the friendly fire incident, we see that seesaw in just a couple hours where the negative, oh no, we've been shooting our own men. Like, oh, what are dozens of wounded or dead?
Speaker: And then also in that very same engagement, the prisoners that give the vital intel that pushes it the extra 40 miles to its successful conclusion.
Speaker: So I think that that incident is ah a great kind of like microcosm of the expedition as a whole, I feel. I would agree. It's that it's that moment in for the campaign that truly allows for the success.
Speaker: And a moment that Washington will reflect on 30 years later in remarks that we have at the at the museum that you can come and see. He writes that that's when his life was in the most jeopardy. It had ever been before or since. And he wrote that after the revolution, which is pretty wild. So even if he's just having a sentimental moment and remembering either way, you got to take you got to take the guy at at his word. We do for so many other things. Right. So it's pretty amazing that he puts that down pen to paper.
Speaker: I agree with Jackson. I think that the Forbes expedition could be like a sequel to the young Washington movie that just came out. i think that would be an excellent, an excellent addition. This is such a, such a great story. And I think one thing Jackson, and I always try to touch on every, every episode is like, what is the overall legacy of this? And obviously like Forbes expedition, there's so many things here that were developed, not only Forbes road that, you know, becomes, I think you mentioned highway 30. Is that right?
Speaker: Yeah. Yep. Round 30 through Pennsylvania, but then also the establishment of like Pittsburgh and and stuff like that. So could you just touch on what what the overall legacy of this is outside of, you know, the stuff you've already touched on, but like what is what is the effect of this this successful expedition have?
Speaker: So truly, you know, when we talk about even John Forbes, he, though often not remembered in history books, when he is remembered, it is for this successful campaign.
Speaker: But he dies just a few months after from that mystery illness. So he doesn't even we think he may have had a type of stomach cancer or colon cancer. But either way, you know, he doesn't go on after this to be involved in the rest of the French and Indian War. But then also maybe even he could have been around in the revolution, maybe. Who knows? um But I think ah the legacy of this part of the war is is the establishment of Pittsburgh, the Western frontier, as we know in Pennsylvania, and it and it it allows for this continued establishment of that frontier and pushing further west. Now, you know, you can look at that in history as positives, but we can also look it in negatives. It's going to lead into conflicts like Pontiac's war.
Speaker: It's going to lead into a lot of devastation for those Native American nations throughout this area as well as throughout the rest of the Ohio country and other places that we know after the French and Indian War.
Speaker: So you you do see this opening of the frontier because of Forbes Road and then the ability to open Braddock's Road, the further movement west, the establishment of Pittsburgh as a hub for the British. And eventually then, of course, after the American Revolution, it's still very much a hub for our young country. So there's just there's just so much. And then for individuals, for Washington, this was...
Speaker: the moment you could make the argument um that he's gone through this entire campaign, he's been frustrated, he's seen success, he's seen glory, he's seen victory, he's seen defeat, you know, all of these things.
Speaker: ah And he goes home afterwards. You know, a lot of people talk about the fact that Washington, he goes home after the revolution. He goes home after, ah you know, after the presidency.
Speaker: After this, he also goes home. You know, we see flashes of what Washington will become in the French and Indian War because he's always wanted to kind of do his service in public service for for Virginia, for his country.
Speaker: But he does also just want to go home. um So I think it's it's it's also interesting to look at the French and Indian War with George Washington as a human and how it impacts him later on.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a ah good thing to highlight. And it it makes sense seeing as it was the Ohio country that first drew him into everything 1753, four, five, and then his work in the frontier and So it must have been a very satisfying conclusion where after essentially five straight years of investment into this this frontier, the Ohio country, he is there to see it fall under British control. And yeah, like you said, he goes home at you know that five years of his life. What has been what has consumed him is is wrapped up in and and that's that.
Speaker: And it was so close to to it not happening. It very well could have not happened or at least delayed until the next year. And who knows? Exactly. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows?
Speaker: Well, we have had a really great discussion for just over an hour now. We've got one final question here for you, or a couple short ones. Certainly.
Speaker: Mostly just, is there anything you'd like to share about perhaps upcoming work you or the fort is doing? And then a very small question after that.
Speaker: Any ah random historical fun facts that you love to tell people, maybe your your little party, your party trick of information that you could leave our listeners with?
Speaker: Sure. So at the fort, you know, we we always have something going on. The best thing to do is to check out our social media channels, Facebook, specifically our website. If you head over there, you're going to see the events that we have coming up. are Usually our biggest event of the year is Fort Ligonier Days, which commemorates the attack that happened on October 12th.
Speaker: of 1758 and we have a large scale reenactment that goes on So come on out, come visit, come on a day when the, you know, when it's not a large reenactment, we have interpreters that are on our staff that are outside that will talk to you, and engage that you can ask questions about. And also come on out and learn more about not just 1758, but the fort lasted to about 1766. And there are some really cool stories within those years as well. So if you come on out, you can, You can learn about Washington. You can learn about Forbes. But then you can learn about all these people that are often lost to the pages of history. And that's really exciting as well. So there's a lot coming up. And I hope that i we'll see see our listeners. It's kind a funny way to put it. um We'll see you guys hopefully out there at the fort coming up here.
Speaker: Now, a a party fact. Is that right? A historical historical fact that I like to tell people. Yeah, something he just finds so fascinating or or humorous even about about the period. Ah, geez, put me on the spot there. um
Speaker: I would want to do something that's for Fort Ligonier that I've always found found it interesting. um ah How about this? i will it It's something that visitors can come see, and I find it humorous, but i think it's also just very interesting, and that is the remarks that I mentioned, the document that Washington writes 30 years after being at Fort Ligonier.
Speaker: First off, at the end of it, he kind of puts this little disclaimer because he wants the guy who he's sending these to for a, for a biography, he wants them to be either returned to him or burned.
Speaker: And, but what does he do to get special attention to be like, Hey, I need you to read this.
Speaker: Rather than playing a carrot mark or anything or like underlining, he draws this little finger that looks like a three-year-old drew it. And it points to this and it's like, hey, look here, man. like um and and And the funny part is the guy obviously didn't listen to him because he either wanted them returned or burned and neither of that happened.
Speaker: ah So David Humphreys, they stayed in his his collection, I guess. But now we have them. And I just I think that little finger is like the funniest thing. I want to put on signs. I want to put on like, hey, restrooms this way. yeah And like good it's the it's the little drawing that's on there. But that's that's something I would point out. And and I think it's it's cool that visitors can also come see it. That's that's very funny considering like, you know, Jackson, I've read a lot of like primary sources for this period and it's all in very old English and very, very formal written, especially amongst the officers. So that's that's very, that's hilarious that he he would use. like um You know what? I'm going draw a hand. Yeah. Like, Hey, look at this. Pay attention, please.
Speaker: That's funny. and You know, that reminds me, I can't remember who it was there's or what book I was reading. I don't even know if it i was French and Indian War, but there's some ah primary source the author was drawing from and they kept quoting the letters and like whoever was writing it kept ending it with like, burn this letter. Yeah. Of course, that no one burned it because we kept drawing from these sources and letters. It's funny. But I mean, hey if you're someone who has documents from the George Washington, I can't blame you for not listening to his instructions. I know, right? And we're glad he didn't. So we have that finger. And if there's any listeners who have random primary sources in their attic, come visit a museum and tell us about it.
Speaker: We want to know more. So if you're out there. Yes. Very good. Well, Matt, I really enjoyed this conversation. I know our listeners are going to like it.
Speaker: Forbes Expedition, already knew it was very fascinating and I was excited to get to in the podcast, but very glad to have you on to guide us through it and hit all of the the big moments. So thank you again for for coming on and sharing your expertise.
Speaker: Certainly. Thank you guys again for inviting me. It was a pleasure to ah discuss with you, have a great conversation with all of you. And i hey, I hope the listeners enjoy it. All right. Everyone i have a great night and we'll catch you soon.
