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Episode #103: Francis Gagnon
170 Plays7 years ago
Francis Gagnon is founder of the Voilà data analytics and visualization firm. He has worked in reporting and information design at the international level for the last decade. At the International Finance Corporation (IFC), a member of the World Bank Group, he designed...
The post Episode #103: Francis Gagnon appeared first on PolicyViz.
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Transcript
Introduction to PolicyViz Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome back to the PolicyViz podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. I'm very happy on this week's episode to have an old friend of mine, one of the first people I worked with when I got really interested in data visualization, Francis Gagnon from Shave Voila. Did I get the accent right? Was that close? You get the accent right. The company is just, voila, but of course, voila.com was taken. So the domain, Shave Voila. Shave Voila. It's so fancy and international. You can almost hear my long mustache.
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm glad you've dressed up. I mean, you've got the top hat and the monocles. Oh, no, that's not dress up. That is my summer dress.
Origin Story of Francis Gagnon
00:00:49
Speaker
Francis, how are you, man? I'm quite good. And I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation. You know, I've seen the guests that you've had before. And definitely this is going on my tombstone. This is it. That'll be right there. This is the top now. Well, I'm really glad you could come on the show. Well, I saw you in the spring at tapestry conference.
00:01:11
Speaker
And we spent a lot of time there talking data stories and whatnot. And then you've written a few posts over in the intervening months, a few on some of the clients you've been working with and sort of like the before and afters, which is really what piqued my interest. I want to get into that in your process and how you work with clients and all that. But before we get into that, maybe you could talk a little bit about your background and how you got interested in information design and data visualization and, and how you started your company up there in Montreal.
00:01:40
Speaker
Well, actually, I got into this the same way that everybody does in a very roundabout way. I wasn't supposed to do this. And I feel like most of us got this because it was distracting us at work. You know, we had certain things to do and to deliver, but.
00:01:55
Speaker
oh this this graph was impossible to read so i just had to get excel to do it properly and i just had to fix this so i studied political science and um and international development but i actually started in communications and this sort of gave me an edge when i switched to political science i was the only one who had the slightest understanding of design and communications
00:02:19
Speaker
So I ended up being responsible for, you know, the student newspaper, the poster for this, the website for the teacher at the time, you know, just students doing them and all.
From Political Science to Design
00:02:28
Speaker
And I ended up doing a lot of design and I got really interested in this and self-start. And I would actually read books about this, subscribe to magazines to really try to understand how design would go. And I remember being like feeling like maybe I should be a graphic designer. Maybe this is like I should I wanted to be a journalist at the time, but
00:02:46
Speaker
And so I realized that I really like this, but there was something missing for me in graphic design and it was substance. I really wanted to engage with the substance. I wanted to question what was in the end of the day. So I sort of let go of this passion of mine and I just completed my studies and went into the field and started working more in international development.
00:03:09
Speaker
And maybe, I don't know, 12, 13 years ago, I was teaching stuff about international economics in Geneva, and I had to use PowerPoint. And I despise PowerPoint as a piece of software. And so, of course, I googled about my hate of PowerPoint. And what did I find? It works out. It's so tough to hear. There he is. There he is. Exactly. So I found the cognitive style of PowerPoint like this. PowerPoint is evil.
00:03:39
Speaker
It's probably what I googled actually. That was my first entry point in information design. That's when I discovered, my God, this is a field. There's really people who use design to do analysis, which I want to do analysis. This is a substance. This is what I'm interested in, but I love design. I didn't switch immediately. I started reading about PowerPoint and how to improve my presentations and how to engage in audience and
00:04:08
Speaker
you know, I we were always losing one or two participants to that's by PowerPoint. So I, you know, I wanted to lose zero and six months, six weeks training. And, and then I got interested in him. And when I went to so then I switched from Geneva and I went to work in Washington, and to for the World Bank, to something totally unrelated again to information design.
00:04:32
Speaker
I was working in what's called donor relations. So you're the face of the World Bank with the donor countries, like mostly rich countries. And I was responsible there for the annual report of our team, among other things.
Role of Data Visualization at the World Bank
00:04:44
Speaker
And of course, there's data in it. And I was doing reports on off and raising as well. So I was making all these data things. And I was still following Edward Tufti. And actually, I think it's my wife at the time who went to his class first.
00:04:57
Speaker
And, and anyway, one day the opportunity arise to go I probably in Arlington, something is mega show by the time I already seen his books. So for me, it was like a nurse concert. The gloves he's putting on the glove. Yeah, but like
00:05:17
Speaker
I knew it by heart. I want to meet the man. It's like you go to see your favorite band and you know all the lyrics. It's not about learning the new songs. It's about listening to the greatest hits. And I really like this. You know what? I didn't go in line to get the signature in my book. I think it was just to Starstruck, I'm afraid.
00:05:40
Speaker
So gradually I kept doing this and getting interested and there was a turning point where we had like a very very bad presentation. I'm going to make a short version of it but it's an annual process of reviewing our data. It was all in PowerPoint and the graphs were awful awful and I started to redraw them and explain how we could do this annual process presenting the data differently and people were sort of interested in it but I also wanted to switch job and at some point I went to speak to one of our vice presidents and
00:06:10
Speaker
the one for our unit actually and i told her you know i've been here for six years now i'm willing i'm ready for for a new challenge and move elsewhere and oh by the way here's something that i've done too i it's something that i do do you see a place because there's no job for this there's no information designer at the world bank and she said like you are going to do this full time for me now like i i love this like i need to see my data this way
00:06:35
Speaker
And so she created this two-year position. And this is when I really started to work full-time in this. Unfortunately, as soon as I got the job, she left. So I was left without, how do you call that, a mentor or someone who understands why I'm into that position and all. But it gave me two years, really, of just doing data visualization and management reports. And after the two years, they said, well, that was fun.
Prioritizing Data Communication in Organizations
00:07:01
Speaker
So you can go back to the machine now? No.
00:07:04
Speaker
He tasted the sweet life in New York. And this is when we met actually when I was doing a job for two years because they said like great we need a data visualization training you know we see the points so please find someone who specializes in this and bring them on board and so that's when I found you online and invited you and we had this wonderful was it one day two days two days maybe.
00:07:27
Speaker
Sometimes two days we did. And what's interesting about that training is I still think about that training because, and it's happened a lot of times since, but what was interesting in that training is it was a lot of people, a lot of the analysts who were working with the data. And so when we were working in groups and with the actual things that they were, the actual analysis and products that they were making,
00:07:47
Speaker
they were doing a lot of like monthly and weekly reports for the managers and they and they knew everybody in the room knew that they were bad. Like they knew that the graphs and the tables were all bad. But it was a constant thing that kept coming up. That's like, Yeah, I know this is bad. But I but the manager really likes this format because a manager knows to go to this like one cell. And it's like, but they don't know that they should be going over here. So it was it was sort of it was fascinating in that sense that
00:08:15
Speaker
There were people who knew what they were creating was not the best thing, but they didn't know how to get the change started.
Challenges in Advocating for Data Visualization
00:08:23
Speaker
Tell me about it. I was working every day with them. I would hear that all the time. Actually, I learned a lot from this and now I give trainings as well here in Montreal. It's a leadership institute for managers.
00:08:36
Speaker
Basically so often mid-level managers know people in their 30s 40s who are going to next step and I tell them the reason you might think I'm not the one making the grass here but you're the one setting the standards in your organization you are the reason why the analyst doesn't want to change the grass for the exact reason that you have described.
00:08:55
Speaker
So I think they get it at the end like okay, I think I you know, I show them a lot of before and afters That's my way of teaching them. I say okay, what is wrong with this graph and then we redo it?
00:09:06
Speaker
And often they look at the first graph and like, I don't know. It looks like my graphs. Right. It looks fine. It's a certain chart. What's the problem? Exactly. It adds to 110%, which is the other effort we put into it. The problem is you didn't give me the 3D red and blue glasses so I can see the 3D pie chart.
00:09:27
Speaker
Exactly, where is the third dimension? So they know they get it and indeed sometimes it can be frustrating to work with the analyst because indeed they have this resistance and sometimes it's resistance because they've got clear orders but sometimes it's afraid of proposing changes. They feel like they're executing or it's just different, I'm not sure am I going to keep a low profile, just deliver what the client wants.
00:09:53
Speaker
Bosses want so it was great because this this is also an annual meeting that we had where we invited you and so those are there we call them the portfolio analyst. There's a big deal with the portfolio data how many projects do we have in what country how much do they cost and. Where's the staff etc they have this data all the time and they have to represent it so it was great to have them like once a year and i was so happy that the management would realize we're going to speak about data visualization.
00:10:21
Speaker
for two days and recognizing that we have this. Because when I got this two-year assignment, my main project was to redo the entire management reporting of our half of the IFC. At the World Bank, I was working in the International Finance Corporation, which is the part of the World Bank that works with private sector. Regardless, half of it were doing advisory services and it was an ambitious project. I realized that it took a lot of time
00:10:51
Speaker
for managers to realize that this was not a reporting project. This was a management project. Because we're asking questions, what do you manage? What decisions do you make? What do you have power over? This is fundamental if you want to know what data to put into the reports. Because I think the reflex that we have with that, I see a lot in organizations,
00:11:11
Speaker
is just to put all the data out there. Here is everything that's happening onto every topic into every region. And so it's just mindful goals like this is the manager's responsibility. That's it. So this was a good experience to have you there. It was good that to have the recognition of the management and the most positive thing is that we met.
00:11:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. Now that you've been working with lots of clients over the last few years, do you think that that model of the way you got started in this is the model that organizations should try to follow? So your path was you got really interested in this. You tried to get your colleagues to do a better job. You brought it to your manager and the manager
00:11:56
Speaker
Agreed and bought in and made it a priority. Is that the way you think that a lot of organizations? That's how they're gonna end up prioritizing better data communication because I feel like a lot of people I've talked to that's the success stories That's the basic path where they or someone they know has gotten really interested in this and it's certainly true in my case They were interested in it They tried to make some change and then management agreed and bought into it and then it sort of spread throughout the organization and
00:12:22
Speaker
Whereas a sort of alternative model that is a manager or an executive says on their own, this is a thing that we're going to do. And they try to it's more like a top down approach. I find that in data visualization seeing is believing, you know, you need to show them the before and after.
00:12:39
Speaker
They don't see the problem really. So when you get someone like you and I was interested in this and starts to reduce this, they start to see the potential. They start to see the power of proper data visualization. They just take it for granted that it cannot be visualized better and that they're going to have to struggle a bit with the data. But when you have someone, in my experience, when you have someone really who shows that suddenly you understand your data, suddenly you don't spend your meeting decoding the graphs,
00:13:08
Speaker
Everything is obvious and we spend the meeting making decisions and analyzing this and then taking steps forward. I have an example in my class where I show them, it's horizontal bar chart. It's fun to talk on a data visualization podcast. I can just nerd out about those things. People just do like them and they head immediately. Horizontal bar chart of 30 countries with
00:13:28
Speaker
Fictional fake data in there and I tell them what is the top three, you know? And it's another political order and they like the struggle and they named the countries and then what is the bottom three? And then I put it back into order of performance, you know And then I say what is the top three? Like there's a catch like why why you even ask that and
00:13:48
Speaker
So when they realize that actually the graphs can do a part of their job and they focus like, why is there a top three? Why are they like this instead of arguing around the table? Like, no, I think this one's a bit longer than this one. And I think once they see this, some people really get excited about it, especially if they have been struggling with it. And then if you can have like, this was my experience that I described, if you can have someone high up
00:14:15
Speaker
to buy into this and then to drive it. I had a very positive experience doing this at the World Bank.
00:14:21
Speaker
But I did feel the loss of that person who was the vice president, like number two, and just going because the new vice president didn't know me, actually didn't know exactly why I was doing this. And the other one was really looking forward to this. So I think I would have had like a good combination of your model of having someone high up who says, yeah, this needs to happen. This guy needs to be in the room when we make decisions because he needs to hear our discussions, like what data do we understand? What
Consulting in Data Visualization: Challenges and Opportunities
00:14:48
Speaker
data do we not understand, etc. So
00:14:50
Speaker
I'd say it's probably going to happen with someone passionate about it, but then you need the buy-in of the high-ups. Right. So then we've got the buy-in of the high-ups, and then how do we get the buy-in of the analyst? So in the case when you were at the World Bank, it was you working with your colleagues.
00:15:08
Speaker
you know, one model, but now that you're doing a lot of client work and, you know, a company calls you in, they say, can you help us, you know, improve this report or improve the way we make graphs or do this analysis, whatever. How do you think about getting the analyst level people, the people who are really working with the data to buy into this idea of better visuals? Because I suspect the people you work are similar to the people I work with, which is they don't identify as designers.
00:15:35
Speaker
Not that you need to be a designer data this, but that's how they they identify data visualization is like a design skill. It's a very difficult question. And it's one on which have mostly given up, honestly, great about being a consultant, because they come to me, they have recognized the value of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:15:56
Speaker
So I would say that it's very personality driven in my experience. Some people really get excited about this and some people are just bothered by it and just don't see the value. They're just like the data was all there. It wasn't a graph that I can decode what like this is a new process. I have to go out of my way to make those graphs. So I have to learn a tool or whatever or learn that.
00:16:18
Speaker
a function of a tool I'm using and it just cannot be bothered. It feels like decoration or something like this. And actually, it's a challenge. I find that people sometimes think that, no, the analysis is done. Can you make it look good? No, no, that's not what I'm doing. It's not about beautifying any of this. It's clarifying this whole thing. So it's personality driven. Some people just get it. And in my experience,
00:16:42
Speaker
It's a huge market out there for this, so I have no time to waste with someone who's not convinced. I have plenty of work just working with people who come to me and say, I actually need this. And often it's going to be because they have a key presentation, a key report, they have a crucial moment,
00:17:02
Speaker
where they invest more. And so they're going to reach out externally to say, you know, where they're going to go beyond their internal resources. And they're going to ask someone to actually help them deliver a quality product.
Techniques for Persuading Skeptics
00:17:14
Speaker
And that's why I have given up on trying to convince anyone I did this in the first year, maybe, maybe this position or bank.
00:17:23
Speaker
after i realize it doesn't stay can you wait and i've been interested hate me a little more than before it was not really worth the expense of energy.
00:17:33
Speaker
I'm just going to work with the people who get it. I see this tension where the HR manager, the procurement manager, or the executive whatever identifies a need and then they bring you in but you're working not with them, you're working with the data analyst.
00:17:55
Speaker
So let me ask it this way. You've mentioned a few times the sort of before and after as a way to demonstrate the value. But when you're sitting with the analysts who sort of been told they have to go to this training, or they have to work with you as a consultant to improve, like, what are the various strategies that you use to say this is why
00:18:13
Speaker
you know colors important or you know not using you know whatever the thing is like or I think slides are a good example one that I always struggle with this like you know they say well I want the four bullet points on there so I remember what to talk about and you know and then you have to go through this whole like discussion so in addition to the before and afters you have other strategies that used to try to convince the skeptics
00:18:33
Speaker
Well, I would say that, you know, I said, I work with the people who are convinced, but they're convinced that something needs to change, not necessarily that they're going to change it. It's like, yeah, it's become like, well, this presentation over there looks really good. I wish I had one of those. Yeah, but no, I cannot let go of my five bullet points just need to look like this picture, but with five bullet points that look like a picture.
00:18:55
Speaker
Right, right, right. So they don't realize that there's, I mean, design is trade-offs all the time. And I think there are very few solved problems in design of these kinds of things. So it's always trade-offs. Yes, you're not going to have your notes on the screen, but maybe that's a plus for other reasons. So I would say that one of my arguments that, if we talk about PowerPoint, for instance, and presentations, one of my arguments that works best is
00:19:23
Speaker
People are coming to listen to you you are the presentation they're going to pay attention to you where just going to put on the screen what's going to visually support what you're saying we don't want people to be distracted between reading and listening.
00:19:38
Speaker
Actually, I've been surprised at how much traction I get with this. People often let go. The problem that I have is sometimes people want to leave their PowerPoint behind the file and print it, and they feel like it's the slide moment. Basically, they have everything. Usually, I can convince them that they can leave the speaker's notes with the slide on top and then at the bottom. This can work as well.
00:20:06
Speaker
I would say that in general I've been fairly lucky and I really had moments where it was completely useless. Of course, sometimes everything needs to stay and it's frustrating and then it's hard to go around it and often we realize it's not really a good match because I'm not necessarily satisfied with the product and it's been difficult for them, it's been a struggle to keep everything there so we do realize this.
00:20:34
Speaker
But other than that i think i've been fairly lucky like people are willing to let go for instance of the corporate templates more than i feared like let go of this like first maybe your first slide you know we're gonna have it with the logo and all but.
00:20:50
Speaker
Really, if they're on your premises, only listen to you. It's okay not to have your logo and your seven squares on the screen repeating every time. Personally, I really like working with the authors. Not working with an intermediary, like someone in communications, who's there on behalf of blah, blah, blah. When I work directly with them,
00:21:14
Speaker
I really have a focus on the content. I strive much more for elegance than beauty and that it's elegant because it all falls into place and it's all clear. It's not really because the colors are fun or any of that. I connect very well with authors usually on this where I thought like, so you have this data, what are you communicating again? I want to say that the trend is downward. Your line is going up right now.
00:21:45
Speaker
Just rotate it 180 degrees. Just turn it upside down. Exactly. Let's flip it. So they're like, oh, you're right, actually. It contradicts my message. So I really focus on the message. I don't say like, but pink is so pretty. Why not? Which is not very convincing to them. But if I tell them, look, you want them to change your behavior. In communications in general, I focus a lot on this. What behavior are you trying to change?
00:22:15
Speaker
And sometimes you realize, well, nothing, I just want to raise awareness. So it's good enough sometimes to just let go of something and realize, well, nothing. But if you really want people to do something different, I find that it focuses and sharpens discussion, like now we know why something should be in or not. And so that's another way I go about it to convince them to really focus on their objectives on their content, and we connect on that.
Networking and Influential Encounters
00:22:41
Speaker
Right.
00:22:41
Speaker
I suspect one of the other great advantages of being a freelancer is getting to meet and work with all these different people. And sometimes some people get to meet fancy, famous people. And you have done that. Well, yeah, right. Andy, one of the Andes, no? Well, yeah, there's too many of the Andes in the field, I think. You're right, Andy.
00:23:13
Speaker
And he's always right. So I get the sense that you met Matt Damon recently, is that right? Oh, yes. Yeah, famous. Yeah, an actual famous person. Yeah, an actual famous person. No, actually, yeah, sure. Actually, we were here and I were talking over Thanksgiving, you know, about
00:23:39
Speaker
about how he skipped his family dinner to come over to mine. More seriously, it's actually the World Bank. He's involved into something that's called water.org. And I work for the water unit of the World Bank for a big ministerial meeting. They have 50 countries represented with ministers and all. And this is an example where the stakes are very high. So they bring external resources. We have to nail that presentation. No, it cannot be that by PowerPoint once again. And it needs to look professional and all. So this is where I come in.
00:24:09
Speaker
And Matt was on the panel, but there was also the Assistant Secretary General of the UN that was there, the president of the World Bank.
00:24:16
Speaker
And anyway, big deal NGOs, and of course, all those ministers that were represented. It was, I mean, I love it because I've been lucky, I've been very lucky in the four years that I've been doing this as a freelancer, that I've worked on good causes, you know, I work alleviating poverty, etc, and, and protecting the environment and gender equality, etc, except my work with a word back, of course.
00:24:49
Speaker
Your former boss is listening to this episode. She just sighed. Well, let's come down at the... Let's come down, please. Please don't touch it. My livelihood depends on it.
00:25:04
Speaker
No, I've been very lucky. Even my other clients, I was working in an anti-tobacco campaign recently, whether you're an infographic. But I think, you know, I track this and it's also my expertise, if you want, that I'm developing. As I said, I studied international development before. So, yeah, I've been lucky to do this.
00:25:25
Speaker
Well, this is great.
Podcast Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:25:27
Speaker
Thanks for coming on the show and chatting. It's really interesting to hear the work that you're doing and the challenges you have, and hopefully your stories will help others improve the way that they communicate their data. So thanks a lot for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me.
00:25:43
Speaker
And thanks to everyone for tuning into this week's episode. If you have comments or questions or suggestions, please drop me a line on the show notes page or on Twitter. So until next time, this has been the Policy Viz Podcast. Thanks so much for listening.