Transcript
Speaker: Darkcast Network. Indie pods with a dark side.
Speaker: You are listening to Castles and Cryptids, where the castles are haunted and the cryptids are cryptic as fuck. And I'm your host, Alanna. And I'm Kelsey.
Speaker: And we're back.
Speaker: Yeah. Unhinged, but better than ever.
Speaker: Yes. Oh, Anyway.
Speaker: ah what What hasn't happened since last time? I don't know. oh Just like... Nothing terrible. Back to... no second My second week back to work, it's... I need a new i need another vacation already We're all terribly tired. That is true. um Like, my God.
Speaker: pirate I think I was on my vacation. Yes, for sure. ah My brother told me when I was on vacation, he had seen something that said for you to actually like recover from being like burnt out or exhaustion from like a job or anything, you basically need like at least six weeks wait. Apparently they've done, like, some sort of study on it and they figured out that it takes, like, six weeks. And I was like, oh, my God.
Speaker: I took two. worked through post-trauma. Yeah, it takes, like, that long. It's cumulative. You don't get enough sleep. Yeah. And then, like, on the weekends, my body's like, well, you're to sleep in until, like, 10, 30 or something. And you... Whoa. No matter what they say, you can't actually ever catch up. Like once you're and like done, you, yeah, you can't like make up sleep.
Speaker: So but you can't absolutely tell you that like, you slept okay, and you walked a bit and now you're gonna live a little bit longer. And I was like, that one's kind of positive. Not like you lost a little bit of the years off your life, which is usually the way we seem to be focusing on it. I'll never get those two hours back. Everyone, like after every bad movie or whatever.
Speaker: Everyone. That's why you just start playing on your phone. keep me you don't have to like, that's what I do. We'll start just like, yeah just let it keep playing in the background. of move Yeah.
Speaker: not like super interested in this and then it's like okay i watched it like i have a vague enough recollection of it it's like okay yes i'm trying to find the one that uh you know that quote-unquote pays you to play on your phone There's so many that'll be like, yeah. And then you're like, and then you're like, here's 20 cents. You're like, okay, well, that's not worth the time. I'm like, I'm on my phone, but like not that much playing these things. Right. It's like, yeah, yeah there there's some out there, some apps. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah there's a youtuber i watch that one of her ads that she does is uh one of those apps where it's like playing the games and stuff i'm like i don't know i i can't like i don't know i'm not a video game person anymore and like yeah A lot of those games I've tried in the past and like just in general, i never found one that really stuck with me that was interesting.
Speaker: exactly. Nothing more than like maybe a month or so that it's like fun and then it's like whatever. yeah yeah. I can get into a good like game sometimes, but it's just more convenient on your phone, I guess.
Speaker: layer You're like, yeah. a blogging on i don't know um what was gonna but yeah they're weird but anyway none of them sponsor us yet so get at us june's journey no ah yeah that's one of the the like gem gem matching games the have heard it advertised on a few podcasts yeah yeah yeah it's interesting um
Speaker: Yeah, I think um so i think Bailey Sarian used to do ads for them. nice Yeah. yeah yeah sure I can wrestle something up.
Speaker: You guys know I talk about things I like. For free! Yeah. yeah For free! The free a advertising. I know, they're like, you're just giving it away.
Speaker: We should be sponsored by fucking Outlander. They can't be giving the stuff away. No, but legit, I have heard ads, post-read ads by Em and Christina, and that's why we drink. And they doing them and they were doing them for Reddit. i was like, what an odd why partnership. I have never heard Reddit have to like advertise for themselves.
Speaker: And it was so interesting. And because like, and not like they've talked about them a lot, they had maybe like mentioned like, cause like your podcaster and you have, your podcast has a subreddit. Like you're going know about it. Amanda from Wine and Cripe goes onto theirs and comments well.
Speaker: Blue Manatee or whatever her username is so yeah I mean I think most people know of Reddit whether they go on it or not yeah it was so weird like you're an ad for like yeah that's an interesting don't know yeah be like this is an ad for Google you can use Google to search things sometimes Google right like what okay yeah oh my god wow yeah that would be weird It was weird.
Speaker: Anyway. um No more free ads. We'll let you know when we get religion ads, guys. Someday. Like us on Spotify. yeah and Rate, review, subscribe. And go to our Squarespace ah now in case we get rid of it.
Speaker: ah yeah but it's lovely Kelsey puts work in puts pi puts up pictures when I'm too lazy to put but pictures anywhere else so yeah there's pictures for if there's pictures basically available ah had pictures for every one of our cases of every single episode for the most part so yeah it's hard enough to describe stuff yeah yeah well they were back to talk about cursed podcasters yeah our technology is cursed uh we're haunted by
Speaker: um i would like to know if anyone's ever felt haunted after listening to our show those type of things would people write in oh yeah that is always interesting they're like you guys were talking about that haunted doll and i got sick and i'm not gonna name any names because you know even some yeah things you're not supposed to talk about like say the names out loud too much you know it's wild bloody mary no yeah
Speaker: beetlejuice yeah yeah oh man Well, anyway, we better kick it off here before we too far down Tangent Road.
Speaker: Can talk about anything and everything under the sun until two in the morning. Hi, baby boy. Yes, that may become a Patreon segment. Who knows if anyone at all is interested.
Speaker: Just a list. Somebody start compiling a list of every movie and TV show we've ever talked about. list yeah and we need an episode guide okay nope but we love you forever
Speaker: ah okay back on track uh i decided to do like i was looking up cursed books i guess and i found a lot of just books that were i guess banned by like libraries and stuff and i was like oh i don't want to get into that whole like debate question mark yeah like like i get it if it's like A library that like children have access to that like mature content books at a certain level shouldn't be like available. But anything above that, I don't think you guys should be like fucking censoring what people have access to. Classics and stuff.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Or going back and rewriting a historical romance so it's less rapey. It's really people have done that. Anyway, that's yeah that's why we're not going to wade into all that.
Speaker: i like cursed books, though. Yeah. That's really interesting. So i like curse I did run across... yeah I ran across two manuscripts, I guess. So like pre-books, you know.
Speaker: What makes a manuscript a manuscript? Yeah, I don't know. It's like... I actually don't know. it would be like the first the first coffee, the first draft, not like the first edition. Yeah, I don't know. yeah yeah ah So the first one is called The Orphan's Story.
Speaker: and it came up on quite a few of the lists when I was looking up like cursed ones. Yeah. i was like, oh, that's kind of interesting.
Speaker: I hadn't either. ah So it's both of mine are actually really old, which is kind of cool. ah this So the orphan story ah was originally written maybe starting in 1608 until 1615. Oh,
Speaker: until sixteen fifteen So like 400 years ago by a Spanish Augustinian? I'm so mad. No. So many things I have to pronounce. Augustinian? Probably.
Speaker: Probably. Like, i don't even know what that means. Monk dude? It's a traveler. Yeah, basically. He's a friar. ah yes. Friar traveler. Yeah. ah Yeah, so he was a traveler named Martin de Leon Cardenas.
Speaker: And he was a friar. He was born near... Malaga? want to say. could have looked up the pronunciation. I'm sorry. mala spain Malaga?
Speaker: Probably. and And he was born in 1584. Wow. wow and I'm sure there's more you can find out about him, but most of the stuff just kind of gave that amount of information. But the...
Speaker: ah manuscript got this whole like curse thing attached to it because multiple people since it the manuscript was first kind of written have tried to either print or publish the manuscript like properly and they've either fallen ill or died before their attempts could be completed or finished oh damn which is a little strange yeah right so if anyone at all tries to <unk>ate Yeah. Like on a printing press or well, did they have? Well, those go back pretty far. So whatever. Yeah, that's interesting, though. Yeah.
Speaker: it Like, it it's like it doesn't want to be replicated. Yeah, we'll get into it. There's like a couple. A couple little things. ah So the the original like copy that they have, or first draft, it's 328 pages long. And obviously because of its age, like the paper has turned kind of like yellow and worn.
Speaker: And there's even a few pages that were missing. nice. yeah and it's written it's handwritten in like that decorative uh like style they called it so like it just looks nice uh it's very delicate yeah um this like decorative style they said was common in the golden or imperial age okay and yeah the
Speaker: ah This was from one of the websites. Oh, shoot. I think I meant to put the website. Hold on. that the card?
Speaker: Please stand by. phone Oh yeah, this is from from the Guardian, I believe. ah oh they didn't want you to pass their paywall?
Speaker: to be It didn't ask me to, so I was like, quick, copy-paste.
Speaker: Don't make me revisit this webpage. Guardian indeed. The Guardian of all the information.
Speaker: So the Orphan's story... as like what's written, ah follows the progress of this 14-year-old Spaniard who leaves Granada and heads to the Americas to seek his fortune.
Speaker: Went to Camp Granada. Just like the song. Sorry. ah He goes around different areas of the Spanish Empire, ah visiting like it says high society fiestas of Lima um to like these slave filled mines of Potosi.
Speaker: um leave And then he goes on. Yeah, like it's Lord of the Rings. Mine slaves. no oh Crazy. Yeah. um And he goes on to witness Sir Francis Drake's attack on Puerto Rico.
Speaker: oh that is so it's like, I don't know necessarily if this is supposed to be like, historical fiction or if it is more like non-fiction or a combination of the two right nothing ever really quite said yeah um it's like arthur legends you're like well no yeah maybe not so much but yeah okay like i think i did see something saying That the friar like had visited multiple places and like traveled quite a bit himself. So like it is possible that like um he did see these places, but I just didn't see anything that like explicitly said that or maybe I just wasn't like understanding
Speaker: The things, but um apparently there's like a few different, what it said was like romantic escapades, ah throw in an odd shipwreck, and a run-in with pirates.
Speaker: Escapades? Oops. Yeah. ah The soldier turned missionary finally manages to uh embrace like a more calm uh monostatic monistatic i don't know yeah life in capital of peru so like changes around yeah So that's kind of like this story, um which I guess the story itself, there's like, just because it was written so long ago, um like the opinion of like the author and like the character. and that kind of stuff obviously was like of the time. So there is like a bit of controversy on like um the subject matter and like some of the language used and all that kind of stuff. ah Sure. Which I have a bit on, but yeah.
Speaker: um Take it with a grain of salt, as they say. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some doesn't mean things aren't worth reading. um Yeah. For like the point of like acknowledging the past. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's all we have to go on is other people's accounts of Yeah. History's crazy like that. So the manuscript itself ah was first set to be published around 1621 under the pen name of Andre di Leon, but it never made it to the press.
Speaker: A couple things said due to like the political climate at the time in Sicily. um Other things said that the author later went on to be like a minor political figure and like didn't want to be associated with um like the subject matter of the manuscript or something. Huh.
Speaker: That's a little weird. ah I'm not a political... ah freaking major so he yeah it goes to run for office and it's like he immediately wants to delete all his tweets but yeah something like that as a result uh of this like failing publication in 1621 it was held in the hispanic society of america until around 1965 so quite a long time That's cool.
Speaker: Yeah. Then around this time, there's this woman, Belinda Paliqua, want to say.
Speaker: um She's a Spanish academic who quote unquote like rediscovers it. ah But just like runs across it and ah through like reading it and like wanting to work on it, she starts hearing all these stories and like rumors about this supposed malevolent energy or curse that may reside within its pages, which is said to cause anyone who works on it to die.
Speaker: so great yeah uh most of what we have about like these deaths is what she talked about in that guardian article so it's kind of like secondhand accounts from what people told her um and then what she talked about in this article um
Speaker: Yeah, so she spent like two years editing the book because, again, it was like handwritten. so like rewriting it and then it had two pages that were missing. So I think she like kind of filled that in um once she had a better understanding of it. But she said it was a good study um into like the look of what ah kind of like royalty of Peru was like from the inside, as well as the exchange of people and goods between Europe and America.
Speaker: ah because it did talk about like, um, use of like indigenous slaves and stuff in the mines and how they were treated and and then it had like different parts about like royalty and everything.
Speaker: uh so i guess when she first started working on it people were like warning her that the book was cursed and um people who start working on it die and she said that they told her as far as i could tell there's at least three deaths that they kind of attribute it to but maybe there's five i yeah like the quotes in the articles that were not very great because I yeah it was a little confusing yeah it's like the myth and the legend it's like Jack the Ripper you'd think he'd killed a bunch of people but when you come down to it it's no more than a handful either that they can actually attribute but uh I think part of it is because there's only like because there's only like a few names that get mentioned so like
Speaker: It's hard to tell. um But she was told that like one died from a strange disease, another one in a car accident, and another from something else. That's literally um so but at least those three deaths. But um strange disease was a great Prozac song.
Speaker: just saying anyway carry on um but she was working with other professors at the time to like edit the book um and one of those was Raquel Chang Rodriguez who specialized in colonial letters from the andean regions and mexico and all she told her about uh or in a letter i guess how two men uh one named antonio rodriguez manino and william c bryant
Speaker: had both died before finishing their editions of the book one name was very hispanic the other was very white yeah william c bryant yeah i was like whoa okay sorry so that's why i said like between three and five deaths because i don't know if this okay like antonio and this william are included in those three deaths like the one disease one car accident one of something else i don't know if they're included in that So that's why I said like maybe three to five deaths. Cause we don't have any more details than literally what I just said.
Speaker: So long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. No, I feel you there. Mine has a similar lack of sources due to it being. Yeah. Really old. he like fuck a Yeah. Mystery. But I guess they, they had been working on their own editions of the book and yeah, they died before they could finish it um Yeah, so that really like made people believe it was cursed or like bewitched that yeah like you can't work on it um or try and publish it.
Speaker: Yeah. um People were obsessed with witches. Yeah. ah yeah I guess they finally were actually like successful ah publishing it.
Speaker: um It sounds like I don't know what happened with like the copy of the book that she was working on because it sounds like it was published by somebody else, ah not her. um it was pen making, though.
Speaker: like because or a gnome de plume, because you can't publish things as a woman all those early days as easily. oh this is like recent. oh this Oh, the recent publication. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
Speaker: Interesting. um Yeah, because she's only been working on it since 1965. Researching. sorry. I must have... Yeah. Gapped out there. ah So, yeah, it was recently published by a Jose Antonio de Castro Foundation.
Speaker: God. which I guess works directly to safeguard Spain's literary heritage. Oh, Which think is cool. Yeah. Yeah. And this like new age print, they called it is bound as like a more modern book.
Speaker: ah And I guess it still features some of the artwork that was from the original manuscript on the front of it, which is nice. Nice. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Oh, here's where it says. She said the book is a blend of like some fiction, some autobiography, and some historical documents. the Yeah. And the author used a letter from one of the generals who fought um that Drake guy who invaded Puerto Rico.
Speaker: And that this letter details like contemporary portraits of the author's world. don't know. More like historical... literary yeah also i just loved you calling him that drake guy just like yeah i don't know i honestly i just like oh i'm not a history person it's like one of the least interesting subjects i can think of in the fucking world so i'm like oh the always yeah like depends for me there's like i don't know i' i've grown into i've grown into some period pieces as i've grown older but i've always had some fascination for some time frames but like Yeah, I don't remember what Sir fucking Francis Drake is famous for. I just think it's funny you called him like that Drake guy. like Wait, you mean the one from Toronto? or And also because someone earlier in a historical romance I was reading i was like, yeah, we had to keep old Boney down talking about Napoleon.
Speaker: You're like, because of course they had fucking nicknames for everybody. Like, you got to, right yeah um anyway that's how we deal with things um yeah so i guess this letter helps uh give like a good view for people of like what that conquest was like um yeah and then i don't really i don't love this quote um Yeah, this is how I said, like,
Speaker: and maybe it's good to, like, read stuff as it was at the times and stuff. But yeah, this quote is like, weird. Gosh. No, I totally agree.
Speaker: Yeah. um She said people always go on about the big evil Spaniards coming and what they did to the indigenous people. But when you read this, ah you see that there was a spirit of adventure that drove people.
Speaker: and it wasn't let's go over there and crush the Indians and rob them. it was more like a big business in which adventure and discovery played a part.
Speaker: Which I don't really love that description of like, don't know. Yeah, I can see your point, but I also have heard of something, and I can't remember exactly, there but there was a term for like um painting Spanish people in history with a black sort of brush, and the saying is something like that, and it's like the way that like you'll hear the pandemic from 1918 referred to as like the Spanish flu and stuff, and you still kind of you know do things like that, where they're like, We're like, yeah, we probably shouldn't call it that anymore. what I mean? It's just like, I'm like, okay, I can kind of see both sides.
Speaker: but but it's like at the same time i don't know yeah like you still went in and like terrorized people no matter who was doing it right it's like some of the stuff that happened here in canada ad british and everything it's like okay but like doesn't mean your sense of adventure and wonder ah didn't kill people yeah yeah yeah because they said it was an untamed land and it's more like no the people were living in harmony with the land and then you came here and displaced them or worse i just thought it was like i don't know i just thought it was like a weird like acknowledging it but then being like but don't focus on that part focus on the adventure and it's like okay but like yeah yeah i just thought it was like a little weird um
Speaker: Yeah, but I guess it also has like details about some of like the slave labor that would have um kind of been like the backbone of different celebrations and like the empire itself.
Speaker: um One of the parts of the manuscript has like the orphan character. um who goes and like is greeted with the sight of like 800 indigenous workers who were ah it said toiling in this hot humid ah place that was full of danger risk mortal and like a hazards and Yeah. Yeah. um yeah And they even described like this mine that they were being forced to work in as like hell oh and everything. Yeah.
Speaker: So like it's good if like those details are accurate and everything. i mean like just like learning more about like what life was like even the bad parts of it. um Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. um
Speaker: boop yeah and then there was
Speaker: oh i think the yeah it said like the author the martin de leon guy um
Speaker: Yeah, this was like what she said in the article was saying that he recognized that the indigenous people were being mistreated and exploited and that life was hard for them. But what ah Martin De Leon is criticizing like in the manuscript isn't the fact that the indigenous people are being exploited so white people don't have to do the work, um which would be like a more modern take, I guess. That's what she said. That's what she said. She said that... He's criticizing the fact that the indigenous population is being exploited to the point of their own disappearance.
Speaker: ah And that that treatment of indigenous people was for him a short-sighted act of Spanish self-sabotage. Which I think is like crazy also thing to say, but okay.
Speaker: Oh, you're criticizing not how they were treated, but that it was too vast and that they were all dying instead of just some of them damn man like crazy crazy shit i don't know i can't even I don't think my reading comprehension is up to that right now. You're making me think we're just watching some like letter Kenny and then they were having a weird debate waiting for the fight to start because they had to lure the D gens in that they wanted to fight. But then they were like, well, if we use the gays to bring him, is that homophobics? And you're like, like wait, what is happening? Yeah.
Speaker: but What are we debating? And I'm just like, I'm so confused. I'll just throw up my hands right now. I'm lost. I'm sorry. um Yeah,
Speaker: much more... much more Okay. About it I thought there would be like more about like the actual every time you look it up it like talks about it being cursed and then there isn't a lot of details about the actual curse which was kind of disappointing but apparently it was like a whole thing that like everybody. Oh.
Speaker: was working on and all these things just kept falling apart about it but like the curse of yeah she said you're like there's a lot about the history of them searching for stuff but like not a lot on who put the cur like what do yeah where did that come from or is it just yeah or what yeah um yeah she did say like the manuscript is a good window into the past um to catch like specific moments in time um and that editing the book and correcting the proofs ah was like she described as being really painstaking but never dull um
Speaker: But yeah, like I said, it didn't seem like she was the one who published it at the end, or maybe she was part of the group and that's the group like published it under that foundation. I'm not really sure.
Speaker: um But that's that one. That's the orphan story. Yeah. And then the other one. Yeah. Yeah. ah
Speaker: and then and then the the other one yeah Literally nothing in my glass either. One sec while you're pulling your next one up.
Speaker: Walking the work uphill both ways. You know. It's rough out there. ah she didn't even hear all my gas struggles. You know, i'll tell you later.
Speaker: Sorry. I felt like an old woman going downstairs.
Speaker: cat hair everywhere oh but i tell you it gets right on your food sometimes doesn't it yeah and my mine can't even jump on the table but somehow his hair floats down from my clothing yeah it's like stuck to my glasses and it's like brushing my face i hate it when one gets in your eyelashes yeah
Speaker: Okay, so this other manuscript maybe be more familiar to most people. It is the Voynich manuscript.
Speaker: Yeah, which we're like pretty 99% sure we haven't done, but have maybe mentioned. Yeah, I tried checking with Lana because I was like, for some reason it sounded so familiar. And then I looked through all Like my curse notes and all my paranormal notes and I couldn't find anything. And then. Yeah. So we might have. comes up on like ancient aliens and stuff like that too.
Speaker: Probably. Cause yeah. yeah It's cool though. I think that's why. yeah I like a good. Yeah. yeah Like cipher code. I find those interesting. Because it's cryptic. Hell yeah. ye ah So the Voynich manuscript was acquired in 1912 by this London book dealer. he was a rare book dealer. His name Dr. Wilfred M. Voynich.
Speaker: Oh, right. That's why we call that. Yeah, because I guess the manuscript like didn't have a recognized name really before that. um So mysterious.
Speaker: Have something named after yourself, that'd be pretty cool. Yeah, like when you discover a new species, and you're like, it's the Kelsey beetle. Yeah.
Speaker: So this, like, ancient manuscript has fascinated people for more than a century. and Voynich had bought it from a Jesuit college ah that was near Rome.
Speaker: And... Yeah, he had it for, what, like nine? Yeah, this would be about nine years when in 1921 he took it on like this little tour of the United States. and Pipe tour.
Speaker: As you had to do. mean, there was what? Some newspapers and stuff, but like no TV. There's No, it's word of mouth. Nothing like that. So like...
Speaker: Yeah. And like, how much do you think you paid for it? Probably got it for a steal. it was probably nothing. they're like I don't actually know. have like... yeah I think I have what it costs of like one of the other purchases, but that was like a lot, like hundreds of years before that. Oh yeah. And then in today it's dollars. That's always a guessing game, literally. 10 million. I don't even know.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, so he was like, take a took it to this ah a tour of the US claiming that it would startle the scientific world and that when the time comes, he'll prove to the world that the black magic of the Middle Ages consisted ah in discoveries far in advance of the 20th century science.
Speaker: It's like, it will amaze you. Yeah. I love it when people prep you by being like, this is going to shock You're like, great. Well, now you set the bar high. You better sit down. Why don't you let me react first?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I try not to do that. That's funny. It appears as a typical like medieval... a book ah typically produced by like alchemists in the 14th and 15th centuries um yeah so ones where people would like document um like different plants and herbs and stars and planets.
Speaker: e a um They even started doing like biology ones when there was like more medical practice. So that's kind of what's in the Voynich manuscript.
Speaker: ah Yeah, it has like... plants, herbs, stars, planets, I guess even like little, they called them racy, like little doodles of like nude women bathing, I guess, just like in margins. Oh, you don't hear about that too often.
Speaker: Yeah, it was like, oh, just like doodles when you're bored. they didn't show that on the History Channel. Yeah. um it's like Maybe not. I don't know. oh Yeah, elk the alchemical drawings, those are always really cool. It's like...
Speaker: yeah a bunch of different clues and symbols and like okay yeah like them uh the event the voynich manuscript stands out among the other um books written as it's an entirely unknown or indecipherable language uh that's like written out over its 200 pages And it is written in this like sort of alphabetical or alphabetic-looking script um that people have different theories about, whether it's some sort of like encoded text or it's an invented language or maybe it's just a hoax. Both.
Speaker: Or like a language an unknown language and then it's in a cipher or something that makes it like so hard for us to crack. Maybe double-layered.
Speaker: accept i guess at one of the purchases ah when it like changed hands there was a letter that was tucked into it that claimed to say that the author was this englishman roger bacon who was um
Speaker: yeah it's like bacon really Six degrees as relation of Kevin? degree i He was a 13th century friar. and I guess this was like before Voynich got the manuscript because he called this the Roger the roger Bacon Cipher Manuscript. as Before it was named after himself, I guess.
Speaker: ah Because he believed that it had been written I had to put the sentence. He believed it had been written by Bacon. it was like, oh, that's a weird sentence story. Also, it's giving ah me organization without a cool acronym vibes from, what is that? Phineas and Ferb. Every time I hear an awkward lake title or something, I'm like, ALCA, organization without a cool acronym.
Speaker: Or no, they were just, the one on Letterkenny, they were just doing, they pick it because it spells... F u They pick it so they can yell something that sounds like, fuck you. It's so stupid. Because it's like F-A-K-U or something. You're like, this is dumb.
Speaker: Anyway. Like ah that Britney Spears song, If You See K-Me. Yes. If You See K-Me. And you're like, i say that ten times fast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes those ones take me a really long time where they like just yeah over my head.
Speaker: Weird. a Yeah, so this Bacon bacon guy had a strong association with magic and also wrote about different secret writing methods at the time. So he was pretty knowledgeable.
Speaker: um so that's Voynich thought maybe he wrote it along with this letter. um This is according to Gary Shaw, who is a science journalist and researched the Voynich manuscript for his book called Cryptic, From Voynich to the Angel Diaries, the story of the world's most my or world's mysterious manuscripts.
Speaker: When your subtitle is three times as long as your main title, why do people let scientists that? Alan Fetot. Your title already, as Reddit would say, too long, didn't read. ah You need to summarize it.
Speaker: Oh my god. Anyway. I guess this bacon theory, they called it, was later disproven after carbon dating on the calfskin pages of the manuscript revealed that ah it was done like 200 years after Bacon had lived, so he couldn't have written it.
Speaker: And yeah it placed it at around the early 15th century. And I guess after this, they also did like carbon dating or some testing on the ink that was used. And that also dated the 15th century. So they used this to help them confirm that it wasn't likely to be a sort of like modern forgery.
Speaker: that somebody had done on ancient parchment because that does happen people will use like ancient like tools and everything like that or materials and then they'll like fake stuff out and be like this is the last scroll of whatever yeah there's ways to like age it up and abuse the paper to appear like leave it out in the sun burn it a bit yeah Yeah, um so they did test it and like figure out that it's yeah it doesn't seem to be like a modern forgery using ancient materials. ah Yeah, so like over the last hundred years or so, ah people, especially cryptologists, have attempted to decode the text. We love cryptologists. We love mystery.
Speaker: We love... a puzzle i don't know yeah want be code breaker yeah whatchamacallit guy or the the group of african-american women i know things but not names what is the one they made a movie about with benedict cumberbatch you know the guy this guy alan turing who I'm about to mention.
Speaker: this ah he was one of the people that actually like also tried to um work on the Voynich manuscript and decode it.
Speaker: Oh, was he? He a World War II codebreaker. Yeah. And then certain members of the FBI have also worked on it. Oh, wow.
Speaker: That's some manpower. That's crazy. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah
Speaker: uh many people have become obsessed with the manuscript and their attempts to decipher it okay um since 1969 the manuscript itself like physically has been housed at the Yale University's ah
Speaker: Beinecke, rare book and manuscript library. so yeah, housed at like Yale. Cool library? I guess somebody like meticulously scanned all of the pages in like high definition. Yeah.
Speaker: And it's viewable online if anybody like wants to. It's actually on the on that Rare Book and Manuscript Library's website. You can like click a link and like download all the pages where you can just like view it on there, which is kind of cool. Careful, someone's going to get hyper-focused and go down that.
Speaker: That's not a rabbit hole, that's like a rabbit burin or whatever the fuck they're called. Yeah. Yeah, because they do have access to the actual manuscript, like heavily restricted. So they do have the one viewable, which I thought was actually kind of cool. Yeah. um Yeah.
Speaker: Because that's not always the case that like you can view stuff like that.
Speaker: So it's more than like 230 pages, some of which I guess is like can fold out. Like it's bigger pages it's like a pop-up book some some pages your flow yeah but of these nude women bathing oh my god on right i forgot about the in case you do a little break the noodles yes the noodles oh my god amazing that's a cool yeah there's like malty
Speaker: And they said like there's multi-page composite images, which was, I guess, a rare feature for the 15th century text. So it's just so unique.
Speaker: ah Yeah, really. They went to some lengths. to preserve that information and then we just can't quite figure it like where the aliens go in like who said this and was like they'll understand this and then we just send a bunch of shit out to space like people pop here's a human this is a man you know all this like random info I don't know. um Yeah, so it's like changed hands a few times. The first owner was a holy Roman emperor.
Speaker: ah and then, yeah, he bought it He also believed it was a work of Roger Bacon. After that, it passed to this pharmacist who then sent it to this alchemist who wanted to uncover, this was in 1639, he wanted to figure out what it said, so he copied the book.
Speaker: I must have copied it by hand in 1639. That's crazy. And like sent them out to various people and was like, help me work on this.
Speaker: and And then, yeah, so they were like... Yeah. ah And it wasn't unusual at the time for like different alchemists or people to use ciphers, especially like replacement ciphers.
Speaker: um or codes in their writing. Just to keep it hidden. Yeah, like just make stuff more private. Yeah.
Speaker: And then, yeah, Voynich had it. and That's when it's kind of got its name, the Voynich Manuscript. After his death, he left it to his wife, Ethel, who then willed it to their friend and assistant, Anne Nill. And then Anne Nill sold it to a New York bookseller.
Speaker: in 1961 and he gave it um to that yale library about eight years later where it's been ever since so for like 80 not 80 like 60 years it's been there he's just like donated it yeah basically oh
Speaker: And I guess since that time, ah the manuscript has only left that library at Yale once for an exhibition that was titled Decoding the Renaissance, 500 Years of Codes and Ciphers, which was at the Folger Shakespeare Library in 2014 to 2015.
Speaker: that's an amazing segu by which i mean segue that's an in joke from a that's how it's spelled i thought i'd like i want to look it up because there's like wait what you're looking at the library oh yes no the shakespeare thing that's gonna lead us right into our next topic um damn it what would i say but what you just said
Speaker: Something about it went to the library. oo It looks pretty. I think I've seen this library in movies. it's ah want It's green carpeting. green carpeting. Looks familiar. Where is it?
Speaker: It's the Folger Shakespeare Library. Folgers. Best part of waking up is Folgers in your go.
Speaker: It is in Capitol Hill, Washington. okay I was just looking at Google Images. I was like, it looks cool. Oh, yeah. It's probably in the National Treasure movie.
Speaker: ah ah Almost. So there's... Oh, yeah. Yeah, because of the... sorry ah Because of the manuscripts, like Fragile Nature, obviously it doesn't leave and they do get a large number of ah research requests and people wanting to look at it. So um they have access to the original manuscript restricted and that's why they have like the digital copies in their library.
Speaker: And their image viewer allows you to like zoom in on each page because there was all these like theories that um the key to like unlocking the code of it was the fact that each...
Speaker: like letter or character had like the actual words written around the like the border of that character so you had to like zoom in um and read each character but apparently that got disproven because that wouldn't like how small the characters are it wouldn't have been possible for somebody to see that tiny to write like that yeah So that's part of the reason it was all these height.
Speaker: Yeah, like high definition images that would allow you to zoom in because that was one of the theories that like you had to zoom into each character like crazy. or what if you had to do something like you had to do with some ah coded or hidden messages where it's like it's invisible on the paper until you do something to the paper um like feel like yeah you have to like dip it in something or whatever and you're like you hold up to the candle you're like oh no actually there's some like light pencil markings on the back here or something that shows up in yeah i don't know it's like yeah there's something with lemon juice oh lemon juice yeah yeah
Speaker: yeah oh no I think what I was when you mentioned that it was in ah like a museum to like in a cipher sort of exhibit that's what made me think of we went to the um the cool exhibit all about you know the cultures and death at the museum and then yeah it was just kind of funny because as it so happened like some of the stuff we got from the they those lovely oh postcards and stuff in the gift shop like I liked the kind of uh designs they used for the the marketing or whatever but then it's like yeah it's also just a card that has like a black sort of almost Native American design like crow stylized crow and then it just says like death and then I'm like oh I'll just put this postcard with my mom's um birthday card happy birthday death
Speaker: death upon you how old are you turning again this comes out she'll have gotten it but yeah there's a gift card in there too and you nice no context just no I'm sure it says on the back that it was from the from the museum oh yeah she'll figure it out I think I wrote in the note but yeah it's interesting so
Speaker: Yeah, so like the theories, there obviously is some sort of like code. um yeah If it is some sort of cipher or code, ah it's one of it's been described as one of the most complex one to have ever existed in ancient or even modern times. Like it's apparently very sophisticated for the fact that like nobody ever has been able to break it and apparently... Certain people were trying back even in the sixteen hundreds like 1600s, to try and decode it already.
Speaker: yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the OG Zodiac Killer or something. Yeah. um It doesn't seem to follow any sort of like simple substitution code where like this character is like this letter. Like it doesn't follow that.
Speaker: um And scholars can't even actually agree on how many letters or symbols or characters that this writing seems to rely on with them ranging or identifying anywhere from like 34 to 70. So like they can't even agree on like how many letters in its alphabet.
Speaker: like and all that stuff to me it is literal it's like it's all great to me like my mom can do those cryptogram things we used to get in the actual like newspaper where it'd be like a you know like wheel fortune except instead of blanks it's all these random letters and you just have to kind of be like well if this one's one by itself and it's probably an i or an a because those are the kind of yeah one letter words and i'm just like But how do you figure it out from there? Like, what?
Speaker: Always, like, blew my mind. My brain can't handle it. Can't do Sudoku. I used to... Can't do it. My dad had a big book of, like, riddles and stuff like that. riddles. I wasn't...
Speaker: He was pretty good at the like the letter substitution ones. I used to do more the um like word riddles where it'd be like, there's 12 people on this side of the river and um everybody has to go across in order of height and Susie is this tall and this person's this tall. Yeah.
Speaker: this person's taller than this person but this person's taller than this That sounds like i thought you going to be yeah anywhere was like, I'm black and white and red all over, what am I? Or something yeah like paper. I don't know. And you would have to um and then it'd be like, this person's three people behind this person, this person's in front of this person. What order do they go in? And you have to like figure it out. Oh, that's good.
Speaker: Yeah. My brain checks right now. pre-access to the internet for the most part. ah Back when I raised my brain. Yeah, but I'm good at some word puzzles, but not these types that we're talking about. I used to do a bunch of them all the time. yeah um Yeah. ah So I guess if it is that um they can't figure it out, there's another popular theory that it's like an entirely new language.
Speaker: ah Statistically, i guess the distribution of words across those 200 or so pages does match some sort of natural distribution of words that would occur in a real language. Yeah.
Speaker: Like there is a sort of pattern to it. It doesn't seem to be just like, you know, like even if you couldn't read English, I feel like you could tell a keyboard smash from like somebody typing out words, even if you couldn't read the words. Yeah, there's a repetition and things like that. Yeah. So that's kind of what they're saying is like that they can recognize there's some sort of like flow to it, but they can't actually like figure out what it says. Yeah, like, you know it's a language. You just know it's, like, a language you don't know or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker: the As I kind of said, the symbols aren't written at random. And in each of the sections, which we'll talk about, there are clusters of words that only appear in that section. So like in the sections that maybe talk about like astrological signs, it has different characters that maybe don't aren't repeated anywhere else or like different quote unquote words. Yeah, because they're specified jargon. Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's like actually talking about specific things. It's not just like at random or like repeating everything over and over again.
Speaker: And modern handwriting analysis showed that, I guess, five different scribes worked on the original manuscript. And which, yeah, I didn't know that before. um So they kind of figured out maybe collectively that those five um scribes like created their own language amongst the five of them.
Speaker: And then that language kind of died with them. Scribes Yeah. yeah and then like how many people do you think you know then you said someone like had copies sent out and stuff too it's like so then they probably had a bunch of his servants um transcribe it as well yeah um and i guess there was a whole craze at the um around like 200 years later we're like inventing your own language and everything people just started doing it I guess it it was a whole craze and like oh no um yeah but that was like 200 years after they dated like
Speaker: That would be, like, in the 1700s, they say that. Craze took off, which sounds crazy to me. We'll need to talk about that at some point. People would just, like, fucking invent their own language. see Yeah. Is that when we got big Latin? Yeah, exactly. What the heck? James Cameron in, like, the Avatar movie is just, like, I need to invent... I was thinking about people that invent languages. Yeah, Tolkien. Fucking dictionary so that, yeah, this whole...
Speaker: Yeah, so that it's all, like, repeatable in a dictionary. that That's crazy. I'm going to have to downstairs and explain why I just made so many Lord of the Rings references now. It's going to be all a tingle. Yeah.
Speaker: So physically, Voynich manuscript is about the size of like a paperback novel at 6.2 inches by 8.8 inches.
Speaker: And though although its language cannot be deciphered, it um it appears not to have any sort of table of contents, but it does seem to have like six chapters or sections that people generally can agree or identify. Okay.
Speaker: But no... author, no intro, none of those no pages anything. No about the author picture on the back. Yeah. And somebody in a smart turtleneck. Yeah, that page got ripped out.
Speaker: Yeah. ah So one of the first sections is like a herbal or botanical section, which comprises nearly half of the manuscript and features detailed drawings of plants.
Speaker: And some of them are realistic and some of them seem to be imaginary. Yeah. And I think that's one of the first things I ever heard about this is they're like some of the plants aren't ours. Like you can't identify these plants. Right. They're unknown. Okay. Yeah. Which I think is interesting. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: ah One of the other sections is an astrological or cosmological a section, which includes intricate diagrams of suns, moons, and stars. Yeah.
Speaker: But it seems that none of the constellations are recognizable to the ones that we have. So, yeah. ah Bizarro world.
Speaker: Yeah. um There's a Zodiac section that closely resembles other 15th century texts. And then I guess we also have...
Speaker: um Although the or order of the signs is sometimes different. um Okay. And then... One of the strangest chapters, I guess, is the biological section.
Speaker: um oh Which they alternatively medical title the therapeutic bathing section.
Speaker: ah This is the section that appears to depict human organs populated by naked women bathing in pools of green water. Just to distract you from the organs. It's a human body.
Speaker: the It says the pools ah could simply be natural hot springs believed to have healing properties. But again, we can't translate you it. It's like that trend where everyone was using that quote, the rain has healing powers.
Speaker: Oh my. Yeah. ah Insert that i yeah video or gif of fucking... Is she carrying a plant or something? Drew Barrymore going out inside the rain and taking off her glasses and looking up.
Speaker: that Shit. Okay. Okay. I'm not sure. oh I always see it online. I'm like, Jesus Christ. She's just looking up in the rain outside and she has like glasses on her. For a movie?
Speaker: Oh. I have no idea. I think it's just from like Instagram that she posted it or something. Anyway, ah there's a pharmaceutical section that consists of drawings of so cylindrical jars that contain various combinations of herbs and roots.
Speaker: Again, like believing this could be a healing yeah like healing or medicinal powers. And then there's, ah this is also one of the only things I remembered about this. I was like, if we have covered it, the only thing I remember is plants that don't exist in the book or like in real life or in the book. And this, that there's a recipe section that does not contain recipes.
Speaker: That's all I remembered about this whole thing. um its This recipe section is a series of 300 short paragraphs, each with a star-shaped symbol next to them.
Speaker: ah Since the text is unreadable, it's sometimes called the star section. And that's all it says. That's intriguing. So it's 300 stars.
Speaker: Recipe used in the modern sense of meaning like ingredients and like how to make a meal. Yeah. Apparently is kind of like, I don't know, but then... ah claire will say you'll make you a receipt for it and she means like uh drawing up of the herbal like here's how you make this tea that'll make your stomach stop aching or whatever here's your like headache medicine it's like um but they'll call them like receipts even though they're kind of like medicinal recipes you know we might call them today like ah be like just a list i think a receipt is just a list yeah
Speaker: Yeah. Interesting. With a bit like pound up the onion and then put it on your eye. oh No, I don't know. That would suck.
Speaker: well You could probably wrap the poultice, you know, not directly to. That was a bad example. it's That wants to make you start crying. Yeah.
Speaker: ah Yeah, that's all I got. Oh.
Speaker: Alrighty then. That was cool. I really, i liked all the details about the manuscripts that I didn't know. i hadn't heard the first one, so. Yeah, I wish there had been more stuff about, like, the people that have died, apparently. Yeah.
Speaker: a little confused about that yeah ah yeah that's what i'm like but it came up on like every list so i was like why do you guys keep talking about when you got like no details about this i mean yeah sometimes i think they're just trying to make that correlation into causation or something they're like so many deaths you know curse of yeah ting tuts too much I can talk. All right. Can you? hu Yeah. We need to take a quick break and I need to stop this recording so it's not too long.
Speaker: yeah
Speaker: If they are connected every angle of the case of the six women found dead across Oregon and Washington in the recent months. Now, while most of these women have been identified, authorities have only been able to determine the cause and manner of death in only one case.
Speaker: All right, let's get to an update on just ah a horrible and tragic story from Washington State where three young sisters, they were found dead in a remote campground. Not guilty verdicts for all three. Tacoma, Washington police officers.
Speaker: The Pacific Northwest is a geographically diverse region of the US and Canada, characterized by its majestic mountains, dense forests, and rugged coastlines.
Speaker: But it has also been the home of many who kill. I'm Carmita. And I'm CJ. And we are the hosts of Murder in the PNW.
Speaker: This is Murder in the PNW, a true crime podcast.
Speaker: That's so stupid. Sorry.
Speaker: I'm like, I'm just going start talking. Kelsey's chewing her cheese. Podcasting is hungry work. and everyone knows that every podcast I listen to, they're like, I'm starving. Yeah. yeah I did listen to a food podcast like almost all day, but that's okay.
Speaker: I could not. I couldn't listen to anything all day. I would go insane. it's Yeah. No, I did switch it up after a while because it just gets to be where you're like of just same two people.
Speaker: But you guys love us. That's right. listen to us all day long nobody else maybe people have binged us some days it's like why did we have so many listens today we had one new episode like last week oh yeah just binge it and we love you okay so to sagu from the shakespeare mention we're gonna talk about some shakespeare curses I didn't know there was a whole category. I know, but one of them. i i didn't Yeah, i was a
Speaker: yeah exactly. I went to go for the most famous one because of course it's called the Scottish play when in this curse situation. So that always, i was like, Hmm, this comes to mind. But yeah, I remember when you said, we were like kind of batting around the idea of doing, um,
Speaker: but different kind of curses it was like oh yeah like we've done cursed objects but there's also curses and a lot of like intangible things too yeah cursed songs cursed plays cursed media yeah oh ah theater superstitions also yeah i have a few of those in here because there's a fun there's some fun ones and like you're like oh yeah yeah a lot of lore around theaters and haunted ones so that was a topic i was like john because they're old yeah yeah yeah most of i don't mind
Speaker: the theater it really depends i have to no i have to really want to see something it's not like it's huge here it's not like we have f freaking broadway and shit like I get this weird thing where, I don't know, my anxiety gets really, really bad and it becomes a combination of oh my God, what if something goes wrong? Like on stage, like somebody messes up and stuff and it triggers my anxiety, even though I have nothing to do with it. And then I like, I will feel like I'm having a panic attack.
Speaker: So I don't like going to, oh i dance's different I can see like concerts. That doesn't really bug me, but like, we've been to concerts i could never go see like improv uh i tried oh once couldn't do it i feel like live i don't really love live things just because yeah like even yeah like theater ballet i've done yeah it's some weird thing
Speaker: and um yeah i didn't have that much opportunity to go to theater feel like but yeah the last few things we've done is like dinner theaters so like you're eating that's supposed to be like different different courses of the meal but that triggers me too because there's like an interactive thing and like one time my dad went on stage and and another time my dad and my brother went on stage so like they come over like hey you want to come on stage and i get anxiety about them coming over and trying to get me to go on stage oh no so that i was like i don't want to find a fun drag queen show or something where it's like just so light in you know atmosphere i think i think i could do like drag brunch um that would be fun because it's a little like ah so i think it's the more casualness of it the my morningties breakfast is one of my favorite things to do i feel so like decadent
Speaker: gonna love a mimosa and like just yeah so good it's so funny because when well no it's just like we're recording this on August the 5th so shout out you happy birthday to my mom happy birthday Jenny when I was texting her earlier she said that she was taking because Rain's been staying there And she was taking her to a high school theater production of something.
Speaker: so I was like, oh, that's fun. Yeah, don't get to do that every day. Just like kind of a coinkydink. didn't even think about how I was talking about theater stuff. yeah oh My high school. Spending some time there. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, my high school, quite a few of my friends were in like the theater groups. So we always had the opportunity to like see the plays or or my friends would give me like tickets to come see it on one of the evening shows.
Speaker: Oh, that's nice. That I liked because that was like people you know, but yeah. yeah Yeah, I suppose that's a different element to it. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I haven't experienced that particular feeling, but anxiety is shitty. Yeah, I don't know. It's like weird. It's so annoying, but I was like, I just hate it. I just can't.
Speaker: I mean, yeah. Yeah. And if you want to get into more of that, I mean, the tag knows her on Patreon. no Yeah. Psychoanalyze me. I'm a...
Speaker: i'm a
Speaker: i'm not an optimist
Speaker: yeah it could be a realist no it's not it might be we're all mentally unwell and i've heard people describe like describe um ocd as having weird things too or like almost like intrusive thoughts like that where you're like that probably won't happen but like It won't, right? You know, like, you're just kind of like, no, I get it.
Speaker: Well, I mean, I went to, I went to, like, a theater play that was from, it came to my high school, I think it was.
Speaker: ah And, uh,
Speaker: They, yeah, it was either like a college or like one of the high schools before I went, before I was in high school. And yeah the it was like a Christmas play, but it wasn't like super Christmassy, but like it was sort related to Christmas. So there was supposed to be a really huge- I don't think so. And there was supposed to be a really huge like seven or eight foot tall Christmas tree that had like a staircase that kind of went and then the tree was supposed to block the one door that was supposed to be like the second floor of their house like on the stage or whatever. And during the play, the tree fell and it broke and they had to take it off stage and then do the rest of the play without the tree.
Speaker: So maybe that's why I have anxiety about stuff going on. That's so bad. Because like part of the rest of the play did not make sense because there was no tree anymore. But. Maybe that's the root cause of this anxiety is this one time a tree fell. No, but like, I don't know. It.
Speaker: so so love smart the one of them on smart list is always fixed fixated on or no sean always wants to ask everybody if there's any weird uh play like backstage stories or did anything ever weird happen when you guys were on stage and someone forgot their line or you know kicked something off the stage or did something that it shouldn't and then the the other one i want to say bateman is always like do you feel like when you're a celebrity that you have to come backstage and say hello to the people after the show? I'm always like, why are you asking this? This is not a really cool question. Nobody cares. And they're always literally like, shut up.
Speaker: But then they're always literally like, shut up to each other. Cause they literally spend half the time interviewing each other and not talking to their person. So. Oh, damn. A little annoying.
Speaker: Just as I'm sure we we We invited who's going to sit in the corner and silently listen to us. Yeah. if i if If I had a choice to listen to someone be interviewed on their podcast and we don't have to directly compare, but or like Amy Poehler someone,
Speaker: or like just a single interviewer sometimes is better. long as I don't fucking focus on ourselves too much, Dax Shepard. Anyway. Can't sound him.
Speaker: Yeah. Oh, clicked something in my headphones. don't know what it did. Okay.
Speaker: So this is The Curse, the Scottish play. Um... I feel like I can't. I thought i cut you out. Okay. So no, you just didn't say anything.
Speaker: Cause these things are sensitive and when you click them, they like shut off the podcast really easily that you're listening to. Oh, oh So this is the curse where you're not allowed to say the name of the play Macbeth when you are in a theater, unless you're actively on the stage performing the screen, it like the play and you have to be like Macbeth, the blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: It's the only time you can.
Speaker: Yeah. Otherwise you call it the Scottish play or the Bard's play. or I think I just saw like Mac B once. hu That sounds...
Speaker: Very familiar. but Very like 90s. don't know. Like a rapper named Mac Truly Mac B. But yeah, I've heard the Scottish play.
Speaker: Yeah. They do like to shorten those things, the Scots, sometimes. maie um so it goes all the way back to the first production in 1606 they think so we went right around the same time frame yeah um and apparently that first uh production the first time it went on stage the actor playing lady macbeth and it is actor because Yeah, nowadays. It's all men. Well, was to say, nowadays, a lot of people will say actor instead of actress anyway. But, like, yeah, it was all men.
Speaker: So the actor playing... Men dressing as women. Men in drag on stage in the bubble. Yeah, or, like, the teachers played all the parts. So they fell ill, or they died suddenly.
Speaker: some say as suddenly as they were on the stage already and then shakespeare had step in yep what okay yeah they died like opening night is the uh the way the tale goes and i also was like is that also a topic because i do hear stories about kind of like on stage deaths and stuff Sometimes they're kind of mysterious. yeah Or like immediately after. like there's People have like a medical episode and then we rush like the hospital and then die shortly after.
Speaker: They were literally talking about a and that's why we drink ah the play called Faust or whatever and they're like and they go down from the stage and he's supposed to be descending into hell and then the guy like had a literal heart attack and I was like oh well that is fucking pretty and also Just, you know.
Speaker: Creepy.
Speaker: So, yeah, Shakespeare had to step it on in to his own play, I think. Wow. Also, some theories go that, you know, because witches were so scary then, as we touched on. yeah um That, like, maybe the lines that he gives the three witches in the play were actual spells and actual witchcraft bla blah blah so maybe it was cursed yeah by a real coven cursed by a coven our spinoff
Speaker: um yeah maybe it was revenge maybe they used real spells but like death bad luck and violence seem to plague other performances um i did ah I like the way this paragraph laid it some of them out. um So according to folklore, the play's history of bad luck began with its first performance, Circus 1606, when the actor scheduled to portray Lady Macbeth died suddenly and Shakespeare was forced to replace him.
Speaker: In another 17th century production held in Amsterdam, the actor playing King Duncan was allegedly killed in front of a live audience when a real dagger was used in place of the stage prop during the stabbing scene.
Speaker: Damn. Yeah, that one's like, I didn't think I'd heard of that. i was like, oh, how very like, yeah, dying on a movie set. Like, there are some stories there, sadly.
Speaker: um likewise actor harold norman who reportedly did not believe in superstition yeah that just seems like rubbing salt in the wound um died after his stage battle became a little too realistic when playing macbeth in 1747 so i guess just of 10 injuries sustained Then it said productions of the play have also been in the center of raucous audience riots, including one of the play, or sorry, including one in 1721 at Lincoln's Infields Theater, and another 1772 at Covent
Speaker: In 1849, a longstanding rivalry between fans of British actor William Charles MacReady and American Edwin Forrest turned violent during a production at New York's Astor Place Opera House, this leaving 22 dead and more than 100 injured.
Speaker: like a sports riot between rival teams, but it's rival actors in the Shakespeare play. Had you heard of that I think I might have heard of that one where was like a fucking theater riot. You're like, theater kids? They could never. like Maybe not, but i i I think I'd heard about like participation turning wrong or like the whole like throwing tomatoes, throwing rotten produce kind of thing. So like, i can see a riot. That doesn't sound...
Speaker: right rotten tomatoes or like we talked about on the vanishing gonna put myself in a bottle yeah it's like yeah we're gonna burn this building down you're so yeah let's start a riot um there was other accidents like actors pulling off stage oh yeah that's pretty typical yeah It just sounds funny.
Speaker: And I think I might have ah more details on how that happened that I found later as I was looking. Where were my sources? Oh, oh, these are more details. um But there was like a famous sort of near fatal miss of an accident when a falling stage weight almost killed ah Lawrence Olivier by bonking him on the head.
Speaker: if it had hit it probably killed him. was like, oh, I've heard of him. Yeah. ah Critic Percy Hammond gave a bad review of Orson Welles' Voodoo Macbeth and then died within a couple of weeks.
Speaker: Oh. I've never even heard of that. Voodoo Macbeth. Yeah, I wonder if that was just what he called it in his article. I'm not too sure, but...
Speaker: huh um oh yeah this was listing other other things like the Lawrence Olivier it was a 25 pound stage weight that missed him by inches that would suck yeah or like Harrison Ford got hit with something on stage too I feel like and he just kept on trucking oh um actors John this is i don't know how to pronounce it gilgud there's two g's and i don't know how to pronounce either of them gilgud john gilgud's production suffered three deaths in the cast and the suicide of the costume and set designer that was pretty sad yeah that's a lot that's a substantial number of cast mentors in one production
Speaker: A little bit troubling, yeah. that many When your normal death count would be zero. You would hope. Good lord.
Speaker: and two suicides. Yeah, that's a rough one. Or it just was so toxic and everything. Like, Jesus. Yeah, honestly forgot what that bullet point said. I'm so sorry. I spent so much time making fun of his name and trying to pronounce it.
Speaker: But yeah, that's, that's pretty rough. It's like, some of them do remind me of like the ones where they're like curse movies, like, um, I'm gonna say poltergeist. And then they're like the young actor died and you're like, but yeah, but that's also just like really tragic luck that she had like, yeah.
Speaker: Septicemia or something. Like sometimes shit just happens to good people. Yeah. But there's there's some interesting ones to make the list.
Speaker: ah Oh, yes. This one, I think we mentioned Harold Norman stabbed in a sword fight. That was supposed to be a fake one. and Oh, the this was the expansion. Lady Macbeth at Stratford played the sleepwalking scene with her eyes closed and walked right off the stage falling 15 feet.
Speaker: So I think that was actors falling off stage. but At least one of them. I was like, oh, no. Oh, my God. That reminds me of when someone spun off the stage blindfolded or eyes closed on Taskmaster.
Speaker: um Jessica Nappet, if anyone's interested. So, then the famous Charlton Heston suffered severe burns in his groin and leg area from tights that were accidentally soaked in kerosene.
Speaker: which I had never heard that. I know. It's like what kept happening to the for poor undertaker and the pyrotechnics. He got like burned a couple times on stage.
Speaker: There's, I heard also, there's a thing about itching powder. they used to put itching powder in people's tights and stuff. Oh my God. as a terrible prank.
Speaker: thank Yeah. I can't really remember why. that's awful
Speaker: um
Speaker: so to cap it out it's a few more the saint paul minnesota mcbeth dropped dead of heart failure during the first scene of act three um yeah forgot about that the 1988 broadway production went through three directors five mcduffs six cast changes Six stage managers, two set designers, two lighting designers, 26 bouts of flu, torn ligaments, and groin injuries.
Speaker: Damn. Now is the end of the list. The list I can find. Yeah. Oh my goodness. But, like, Broadway shows are hard. It's one of those where, like, yeah, the longer something's running, like, you know, and the same with some these superstitions. It be like, how long was it running? Oh, like, three and a half years. It's like, oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 300 people died, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, but it depends, like, how many shows. Because yeah sometimes they're doing, like... five seven a week yeah it's a lot a few of them will have like matinees and everything it can be crazy like if you yeah like had to do all that yeah i feel like you maybe get like two days off and they're like do two on saturday or something because i know sean hayes has talked about the the grueling schedule a bit, not like bringing it up, but people were like, Oh, you were so great on that. And he's like, yeah, it is tiring though. ah
Speaker: um So there is a a way to reverse this curse. If you should oh let slip the bad okay word on stage or whatever in the theater. It says simply exit the theater, spin around three times, spit over your left shoulder and either recite a line from Shakespeare or unleash a profanity.
Speaker: Which would love a profanity. Oh my fuck. yeah I almost included another page of, if you look up Shakespeare curses, it's just like all the times they've had real fancy profanity in the plays and stuff. I'm like, oh, it's just like old timey cursing. This is fun.
Speaker: People, uh, people don't realize that now Nowadays, people like Shakespeare is like on this pedestal of like, oh, right.
Speaker: Like um high tier literature or like plays and stuff. But at the time, it was like the working class and poor people that were going to see these plays.
Speaker: And her it's got a lot of like inappropriate. humor and insults and hilarious things if you actually like take the time to read anything other than fucking Romeo and Juliet but even Romeo and Juliet has a few things like the yeah yeah um Yeah, it's just like, oh, if you actually ah like read it or read the ones where like they have like the more layman's terms of like ah what each page kind of says as you follow along, it's actually hilarious. like
Speaker: There's like your mama jokes in there. There's jokes. joke You know what love when I come across like he laugh a classical musician who has like a song about asses or something. i'm like, wise modes aren't talking about licking asses. It's the stuff that amuses me to no end.
Speaker: like Yep. They were so dirty. is that Yeah. Yeah. what would you say Sorry. No, I don't.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: It's just some other theater superstitions that I thought were interesting. no whistling in the theater, which was bad luck going back basically as long as Shakespeare times. um Since when the they employed like sailors backstage, they're really good at rigging and ropes and all that kind of agile stuff but they would just whistling as their like cues and communication so you didn't want to whistle at the wrong time lest you a piece of scenery to fall out your head like Olivier yeah um so that one came from like a practical reason um never say good luck before a show
Speaker: uh say break a leg yeah yeah we've all heard this probably but it seems to go back to elizabethan england um i guess that's elizabeth the first times the famous virgin nope kelsey's checked out just kidding
Speaker: um i can't keep speaking of anybody no i know well we know it's not the elizabeth that just died she was the second one
Speaker: Anyway, so coins might be tossed at the end of the show and then the the actors who bent down to pick them up were said to have sort of broken the straight clean line of their legs.
Speaker: And so some people say it's due to that where the saying comes from. Yeah, I don't love it, though. This other one, I think is better. Says, um, some of the backstage theatrical masking sort of curtains covering some of the back wall,
Speaker: on the sides of the stage was like they were called legs so if you were in like a vaudeville show or something that had multiple acts and your act got on the stage you're like oh i'm on snl and my thing made it to the thing then you got to walk past the curtains thus breaking the view of the leg and you made your money because you got out onto the stage okay like that kind of makes sense i mean i've heard different origins for Certain things like why they call it a shock glass. Yeah, i don't know.
Speaker: Anyway, the ghost light is something they sometimes are known to turn on in a theater after each show during the nighttime. um Either for the spirits to keep at bay or to hold their own show. Or it just helps people keep from tripping over things in the dark.
Speaker: So it's probably practical as well. Yeah. yeah I know. I was like, that's still funny though. Um, uh, the other one was called, and it is not as nice of a word nowadays.
Speaker: think it's sort of a slur, the gypsy robe, it was called. So they don't think, you know, but, The Roman robe, maybe we'll call it.
Speaker: um ah This was a Broadway tradition where a new one was made each season to get off the start of the show. Then it was given to the chorus member who had the most Broadway chorus credits on opening night. So I guess the person kind of, you know, been there the longest, had the most yeah seniority.
Speaker: The ceremony would include the last gypsy Roman robe. Hi, Fenrir.
Speaker: And the whole crew, plus an Actors' Equity Association member, would gather round and the new recruit dons the robe, walks three times around the circle of cast and crew, and everyone touches it for luck. Then they visit the dressing room to bless the show, and that year's Gypsy adds a unique souvenir to the robe from the show, and all the cast signs it.
Speaker: me hu Never heard of that. Interesting tradition. Yeah. um Apparently three of them are on display at the Lincoln Center Library for the Performing Arts.
Speaker: Another library. And two at the Smithsonian. ah We're really shouting out all the libraries and museums on this one. Yeah. I love it. Support your local library. um Some other superstition was just simply that a bad dress rehearsal.
Speaker: Rehearsal. A bad dress rehearsal equals a smash opening night. And it's sort of an old wild wives tale that no one really knows the origin of. Oh, I've heard of that one.
Speaker: Really? It just seems like people were like, maybe people were just clinging to their last hope that the show would go on. I never heard that though. I don't know Yeah.
Speaker: Sounds familiar. don't They also said blue was unlucky on stage back in the day, but that stems from like blue dye being very expensive at the time. So that makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker: Kind of like how over or purplepling purple. Yeah. Yeah. It's a royal color because it was pricey. Never light a trio of candles, which seemed to stem from practical reasons a bit, as it's a hazard.
Speaker: And Shakespeare's Globe Theatre's thatched roof burned to the ground after a cannon was fired during a Henry VIII show. Who thought that through? Nice.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. oh and they also say that the person standing next to the shortest candle dies first so that's cheery oh weird right just get the candles out of there yeah they're like talking about on the don't know watch along pods like for the office or whatever they'd be like oh yeah health and safety gets all up in arms if there's a candle on set fire on set um but this is a weird one too never have a peacock feather on stage which seems to come from a superstition the the pattern resembles the evil eye yeah don't know oh i thought that was to ward off evil though that's true hmm
Speaker: because they have like a blue eye. Ugh, whatever. um No mirrors on stage. They're bad luck, not because of breaking or being portals to hell, but due to the light they reflect. You don't want to blind anybody.
Speaker: i'm like, you'll relate to mirrors breaking. yeah That's just expensive, really. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: uh never give a performer flowers prior to a show it may bring bad luck before the performance by jinxing it i like this instead wait and give them a graveyard bouquet ah traditionally to the director you would as an actor go steal it from the cemetery to honor the death of the production and probably because you're poor and broke Oh, that's weird.
Speaker: Yes! ah just love on the graveyard bouquet. why are we robbing from dead people all the time? Like of years ago. Oh, we'll get to the grave robbing here in a second. Although, that's mostly it for the theater stuff. Because if all else should fail you, you blame the bad luck on Thespis, or rather his ancient Greek ghost, as he was the first thespian to step out of the chorus...
Speaker: And play an actual character. Thus he is the father of all thespians. So every theater can claim him as a ghost. Yeah! i was like, that's where that word comes from?
Speaker: What an annoying word. Thespian? Yeah. My moms are lesbians!
Speaker: right Sorry. Gordo's blocking the mic. oh youre just He is a natural thespian. Let me tell you. He would like to take center stage at all times.
Speaker: Hi, baby. Hi, my baby boy. I think my dog pushed open the door. Otherwise, I just have a very gentle ghost that opened the door. All right.
Speaker: So there, as I looked that one up, there came up one other Shakespeare curse that was about his grave. um so when he died, sorry.
Speaker: I know, I hadn't heard about this one. and never heard about another one.
Speaker: ah He was buried in the Church of the Holy Trinity in Stratford-upon-Avon. I think we have one of those in Ontario. um but worried about grave rond robbers or other vandals he requested this written onto his gravestone it has this a epithet or whatever you call it good friend for jesus sake forbear to dig the dust enclosed here blessed be the man that spares these stones and cursed be that he that moves my bones
Speaker: o don't give him a boner
Speaker: And no one had really disturbed it. Even up until 2008, construction workers were doing repairs and they gave it a wide berth. um But yeah, we'll get to it. So it is disputed when he died because he was born on the 26th of April, 1564. And some say like died on the 23rd of April, 1666. But also some say that he died on the 26th, which would have been his birthday.
Speaker: I'm like, i don't know. Records, right? It was a long time ago. And he might have been sick for a while. There is a little bit more, but not much. Apparently he had an odd sort of detail where he had written a will within a month of dying. And he had stated that he was in perfect health.
Speaker: Which is, I don't know. Did you have to write that? Or do you have a gun to your head? and Maybe it's like an eye of sound mind and body. Yes. Do whatever it is. Do hear Declare.
Speaker: Exactly. i give Kelsey all my money. You heard it here first.
Speaker: um Oh, my dad's more like... No, but they're the vicar no the vicar no she's i don't want to marry you um uh the vicar of stratford provided a clue when he wrote shakespeare drayton and ben johnson had a merry meeting and it seems drank too hard for shakespeare died of a fever there contacted so perhaps he got sick and then like perished three days later He had a real fun night with these two other guys, but maybe they got him sick. I don't know.
Speaker: i never heard of him. He didn't die of a hangover three days later. What? so dehyggerated Yeah. I mean, they're rough in your 30s, but... However... Another writer said, we wondered, Shakespeare, that though...
Speaker: whenst assist it's like whenst but then apostrophe another s t so i was like what how to pronounce that girl whenst assist
Speaker: uh and it uh so soon from the world staged the graves tiring room gordo distracted as we know he's being so cute And he's on the world stage. can't hear him All the world's a stage. Oh, no, he's being picked up on the mic right now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You guys can hear him. He's such a sweet boy.
Speaker: If I could hear the purrs. Yeah. He is. um So yeah, this was just weird. ah I didn't put any pictures up, but there is. a You can look up his headstone. Didn't find pictures of Shakespeare plays from 1566? There's like two. No, but the one article is like, there's this is one of two known portraits of him. And it's like the one where it's like, you know, he's like bald on top and got kind of weird. Yeah.
Speaker: The frilly white collar. yeah it might have been that one or one where he's not wearing the rough thing but he's got like a hoop earring which to me i don't know why he's just so like yeah he's gonna rap about asses he's just so well i had to show that that was cool um couldn't get a tattoo ah So at first it was weird because they're like, his name is not really, it's not printed on his headstone.
Speaker: Cryptic. o But like, he was also so concerned about people breaking in to his grave. Yeah. i was like Okay. Is that because of that? um Also unclear why family members buried next to him do have all their names engraved.
Speaker: um but He was hoping people wouldn't be smart. Yeah. yeah but this is my whole family but who is this it his warning up sorry that's a song uh eventually or within a couple years of his death by 1623 jesus just a piece of my uh microphone it's fine um
Speaker: They erected a half effigy of the bard. So it's like his like top half, almost like a bust or something, but then it's painted. And he's there with his hair and his lips are parted. And i was like, oh, I kind of wanted to... I should put a picture of that on social media. He's just kind of like so weirdly surprised.
Speaker: um The grave was a little short. It was less than one meter. Don't at me. I also am not. I don't know what meters are. It's a yardstick.
Speaker: It was smaller than his wife Anne Hathaway's grave even. So what's up with that?
Speaker: Yeah, I've heard of that whole conspiracy about him possibly not actually be made buried there because of the grave length. Yeah.
Speaker: And because he didn't want people to look into it they really didn't, like... Yeah. Like, you know, yeah, bother him or whatever. Until... until
Speaker: ah yeah 2016 so basically he's not even buried in like they said he wasn't in a coffin him and his family members more interested in like out a shroud a winding cloth you know just oh yeah kind of that cloth thing and when they scanned it with whatever x-ray or whatever his skull either appeared to be missing or was like never there to begin with so that might have been part of the conspiracy or the mystery He's a head somewhere in Disneyland beside Disney.
Speaker: Is it Walt Disney? Yes, or with Rasputin's penis. Oh, is that who they thought had his penis? Yeah, I think so. Also bony parts. Mysterious missing penises, our next Patreon episode.
Speaker: Mystery bony parts. um Yeah, but they looked like the grave had been tampered with when they investigated... further like research wise they looked into it and found that an article written in an argosi magazine in 1879 sort of had a story to back it up and as the story goes a man called frank chambers and his merry men broke into the grave to steal the skull to sell it to a collector for like 300 guineas which was probably a lot so they could reenact hamlet oh
Speaker: that's so good that's so good to fear not to be I didn't even think of that you got me girl Shakespeare's original skull I think they even mentioned in article and I was like whatever ah but you're right the skull um yeah I mean I would they could have a skull they could have a skull in a real Hamlet production they have ears they have real skeletons in some movies sometimes Like, apparently Rocky Horror Picture Show has. first movies yeah Yeah, the skeleton that's, like, inside of the clock or whatever in Rocky Horror Picture Show apparently is a real skeleton. yeah
Speaker: Oh, I thought I heard about it for, like, The Omen? I think it was the other one? where theyre yeah Oh, yeah, they use real skeleton. Yeah, there's a few of them. Yeah.
Speaker: So, sorry, my last... bullet point was that they tried to investigate um or sorry the follow-up to that tale said excuse me they said that that frank panicked and then hid the skull in uh a saint leonard's church in Bayoli, I don't know how to say it and the so called Bayoli skull was examined and determined to probably be that of a 70 year old woman so she probably has no no merit that it's his skull but it is a mystery i love a mystery
Speaker: ah that's all I got, we did it damn cool, cool I like curses theaters man are so creepy and full of lore and history.
Speaker: Yeah. And cats. Nope. yeah Just the cats production. Yeah. I could not.
Speaker: No thank you. What? You don't like the Jabunkley cats or are they called? They're so creepy. I don't want to see people. pants Right? Even after they ah edited out their CGI assholes or whatever? i heard from the movie.
Speaker: Yeah. don't know. I don't love movies with a lot of CGI. i think they lost a lot of ah whimsy and stuff when ah like a lot of physical practical effects started going away.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah and the the live action Disney ones I'm like why are we still doing that yeah I don't need remakes of animated movies I could care less who's asking for it especially if you're like gonna change the story a bunch or
Speaker: yeah Or do a shot for shot remake where it's like no different at all. It's like, what's the point? Both suck. Come up with an original idea, please.
Speaker: Like, i did yeah, we were watching that. We were in the theater watching the, oh, the new Spider-Man, which was good. um But then it's like the ad in of them's for like, yeah, the fucking Moana.
Speaker: Moana. Why? who is asking for that? Does anyone want to see The Rock with hair anymore? No, it creeps me out. He's on Canny Valley. when he's ah I don't need to go back and watch him in The Mummy. That was a weird one. But you should watch the one I was telling you about The New Mummy by Lee Cronin because that was a creepy take on a mummy Oh.
Speaker: Yeah. Because they it was their daughter that was found in a mummy coffin that went missing. It was it was creepy. Um...
Speaker: so yeah happy birthday mom happy birthday leos
Speaker: have a haunted birthday cursed birthday yeah gordo show what babes um that's all i got
Speaker: I don't think we have our next episode topic. cures Oh no, probably not. It'll be a surprise. lately Yeah. We still have to record the second half of the Patreon because that one kind of signed it with a long. We know what that one is. Yeah. so I'm covering the Grim Sleeper. Ooh, yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, we'll be back next time for I guess it's a true crime episode. So yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Let us know what you think. We'll catch you next time. Yeah. Bye-bye. Like, I'm too tired.
Speaker: i was like, I got nothing.
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