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Building the Future of Agriculture: Science of Soil Health for Sustainable Agriculture
123 Plays1 year ago
Innovative agritech depends on innovative approaches. Adrián Ferrero, cofounder, and CEO of Biome Makers talks about the critical roles that soil health, data, and tech play in modern food production, and how Biome Makers’ soil testing solutions are breaking new ground.
🕑 💡 KEY MOMENTS
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➜ 00:03 Biome Makers is transforming agriculture through its groundbreaking soil testing solutions.
➜ 04:44 Biome Makers decode soil microbiome through DNA sequencing for agricultural decision-making
➜ 09:33 Healthy soil microbiome leads to better crop yield and sustainability
➜ 14:17 Companies implementing regenerative farming practices
➜ 18:52 Reducing nitrous oxide emissions in farming practices
➜ 23:04 Marketing plays a crucial role in a startup's success
➜ 27:29 Company's future plans and hopes for sustainability
➜ 31:49 Consumers need to evolve their consumption habits for a sustainable future
🌍 SUSTAINABILITY PODCAST CREATED BY NEW PERSPECTIVE
========================
This podcast is proudly sponsored by New Perspective Marketing, a dynamic growth marketing agency in Boston, MA, celebrating 20 years in business. We help sustainably focused B2B organizations grow their brands and scale up revenue. If you or your organization is looking to grow, visit npws.com for more info.
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Transcript
Introduction to Adrian Ferrero and BioMakers
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello lovely people, you're watching another episode of Green New Perspective podcast, a webcast series dedicated to sustainability. On episode number 9 we have the pleasure of hosting Adrian Ferrero, the co-founder and CEO of BioMakers, a company that is transforming the agricultural industry
00:00:23
Speaker
through its groundbreaking soil testing solutions. So as a champion of sustainability and a key figure in the agri-tech sector, Adrian joins us to discuss the hurdles that our food production is facing and how data and technology can be leveraged to establish a more just and sustainable food system. So join us and enjoy the conversation.
00:00:47
Speaker
Alright, here we go.
Transition from Human Genetics to Agriculture
00:00:49
Speaker
So, let's talk about biome makers, about origin of biome makers and what prompted you to start the company and what does the company do.
00:00:58
Speaker
Okay, so thank you very much for this opportunity to introduce BioMaker. So what we do is we provide insights on soil health. Okay, we're a digital soil health platform where people can go and learn how to manage their soil more efficiently to keep the soil alive in a sense.
00:01:18
Speaker
Again, the reason because we decided to start this company is because, well, the previous experiences that we have as entrepreneurs were more into the human space. So we were utilizing the genetic technologies, DNA sequencing, to support doctors to design or to prescribe better treatments for their patients by doing a DNA testing to analyze all the mutations that
00:01:44
Speaker
you know, we're connected to different hereditary diseases, mainly cancer.
Importance of Soil Microbes in Farming
00:01:49
Speaker
So what we realized is that in agriculture we were missing bio-indicators, biomarkers, that we could utilize to make better decisions in the field, especially farmers, because when you think about agriculture, everybody blame the farmers on the use of chemical fertilizers, they blame on the impact of
00:02:09
Speaker
the environment, different variables. But what we realized is not about blaming, it's about what they are missing or how we can help them to make better decisions. And what we found out that there were no way to really measure or identify the biological activities happening, in this case, in the soil. Because soil is, let's say, the matrix where the origin of everything. If you think about
00:02:35
Speaker
95% of the food comes directly or indirectly from the soil. So then you realize how important the soil is. And in the soil you find this community of living beings that are the microbes, the bacteria and the fungal species, that they are natural biosensors.
00:02:53
Speaker
So they reflect everything that is happening in the field. And at the same time, they play a crucial role on all the activities that are related to plant growth. So this community of microbes were fully unknown.
00:03:07
Speaker
mostly unknown because traditional microbial techniques just were able to identify 1% of the microbes populated in the soil. Those were the ones we were able to grow in a petri plate. But now, new technologies as DNA sequencing allows us to discover the whole spectrum of microbes.
00:03:26
Speaker
But the key is not to know who is there, but what they do and how they impact us, in this case, how they impact the plant growth. So that's the origin of a bio maker's business idea, to utilize DNA sequencing, to digitalize literally.
00:03:41
Speaker
the soil biology and then use advanced computing technologies to understand the functions and ecological relationships of this community in order to deliver useful insights, actionable insights to the farming community, to all the stakeholders in the value chains in agriculture.
00:04:01
Speaker
And then you have to do it in a nice, smooth, digital experience. So this is where we have developed the big crop platform. This is how it is called. And this is how we started.
BioMakers' Microbial Database Advantages
00:04:14
Speaker
We started in California back in 2015, so eight years already on the road. And right now, we're proud to say that we have the largest database of soil microbial references. Actually, we have a profile 14 million of
00:04:30
Speaker
taxonomic units of microbes. And just keep in mind that humans have been able to name around half million of microbes. So 350,000 bacteria and 150,000 fungal species, which means that we're really discovering what is underground and what is more interesting, what they are doing, what are their behaviors and how they are impacting. So that's the origin of bio-makers.
00:05:01
Speaker
Biodiversity, disease risk, nutrient cycling, and stress adaptation define the health of soil and the food we grow in it. Soil is a living entity that responds to external agents such as climate change, pests, and increasingly demanding production systems.
00:05:20
Speaker
At Biome Makers, we decode the complex soil microbiome through next-generation DNA sequencing to discover which microbes live in the soil, what functions they perform as a community, providing key data to guide agricultural decision-making. Our B-Crop technology is the world's largest taxonomic database of microorganisms, setting the global standard for soil health.
00:05:47
Speaker
Restore your soil health, ensure a profitable growing season, save time and money optimizing agricultural inputs, and recommend the most suitable products with Beecrop, the global standard for soil health. And what was your first successful project, the one that put you on the map?
Success Story: Napa Valley Wineries
00:06:07
Speaker
The one that put us in the map was working in one single crop and validate the value proposition for these functional insights on soil, which was wine industry. So we started working in Napa Valley, which is a famous wine region in California, working with high-end wineries, doing pilots, with them showing, getting their feedback, sampling their soil.
00:06:33
Speaker
you know, understanding what they had and how those microbes were impacting them. And then also exploring the connection with the wine making process, which is a fermented process. So we wanted to see if there was a connection, this terroir element. And that's how we started. Once we finalized this initial experience, we were ready to expand to other crops.
00:06:57
Speaker
And right now we're working in 180 different crops. So those are the crops that are active in our database because our insights are crop specific, especially when you talk about, for instance, disease risk. Disease has
00:07:12
Speaker
to be very crop specific. When it comes to nutritional pathways or how the soil is mobilizing the different nutrients to make them available to the plants, in the same way the gut microbiome is working and feeding us, then the crop is not as important. Is it important? It's not as important or crop specific.
Regenerative Agriculture Practices
00:07:32
Speaker
Will you talk a little bit about the downsides of traditional agriculture? Can you give us a bit more info on what are the pluses of regenerative agriculture and what you're doing? Regenerative agriculture is such an interesting mindset change.
00:07:54
Speaker
that involves the concepts, some of the traditional concepts in agriculture. In the last 60 years, we've been able to grow the yield in agriculture dramatically by the use of chemically synthesized fertilizers, which has been a great contribution to keep increasing. Also, basic genetics like
00:08:20
Speaker
playing with the plant genetics have been helped into this deal increase. But what we have realized now is that we cannot maintain that level of production. We have to evolve the way we farm because what we were damaging is the natural fertility of the soil. And at the end of the day, that means that the farmers have higher dependency
00:08:41
Speaker
on inputs and the productivity of the plan or the field is going down. So in order to maintain a reasonable field productivity and, you know, leverage the dependency on certain inputs that are not going to be as beneficial for the activity as we thought, well, we are now coming back to certain practices that are not completely new. But we are recovering something that we were doing before
00:09:11
Speaker
and also integrating with what is called modern agriculture, and this is the evolution that we call regenerative agriculture. Everybody defines regenerative agriculture in different ways, but at the end of the day, it's not just a label, it's a mindset on how we approach farming in more integrative way, a smarter way, and productive because economics under regenerative agriculture is also extremely important.
00:09:40
Speaker
food. It's one of life's greatest joys. And yet it's so much of a necessity that we can easily overlook the story of where it actually comes from. Hidden below the surface and too tiny to see, the soil is filled with life. A microbiome, which if supported, assists fathers through an abundance of activity.
00:10:03
Speaker
The benefits of this soil life are profound, sequestering carbon and building organic matter within the soil. A healthy community below supports a healthy landscape above. And acting in symbiosis, these diverse life forms aid strong growth for the crops, building their resilience within a changing world.
00:10:26
Speaker
Nutrient cycling and other beneficial microbial activities not only allow plants to thrive, but produce crops with greater nutrient density. Better soil. Better food. Better life. Can you give us an example of a farm or an organization that used your technology to change its practices?
Improving Crop Yield with BioMakers' Tech
00:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, well, there are many. Yeah, but talking, for instance, in North America where corn and soybean are extremely important, but we see, for instance, some of our clients had a fertility efficiency of 35 to 45%, meaning that every pound that they throw
00:11:15
Speaker
fertilizer into the field, only 35% get into the plant. So that's not really high. And once we were looking at their field, their soil, delivering the insights, playing with the different elements, comparing different areas.
00:11:33
Speaker
then they realized that certain pathways were not really active. So they were blocked. That's literally what it means. So what they did is, well, instead of keeping adding more and more fertilizer with the same efficiency rate, they introduced a biological assowing amendment, and that restored the ecological balance in the soil, enabled activate
00:12:00
Speaker
the, in this case, the NPK, the Nitrogen Phosphorous Appotation Pathway, increased the fertility efficiency. And then, at the end of the day, they spent the same money, not because they reduced the amount of chemical fertilizers that they were throwing, but they were spending some additional money on this biological amendment. But what they saw is an increase of one point
00:12:25
Speaker
2% yield increase, which in terms of economics, this is really high for a crop like corn. So this is one of the experiences. We are currently working a lot in tropical crops. It's so curious because we were not expecting to do that journey, but the farmers in Latin America mainly were calling us and the companies working with them to increase the efficiency in their farm.
00:12:54
Speaker
They call us and say, hey, we want you to help us to increase them, to decrease the ecological impact that we're having in our operations. So the amount of pesticides that they use, the chemical fertilizers and so on. And utilize these natural processes that were naturally there.
00:13:17
Speaker
We're working on bananas, on coffee, cacao, sugarcane, pounds, and we see amazing results, especially because one of the products that we have beyond the agronomic advice or agronomical insights that we provide on nutritional pathways, stress, hormone adaptation, disease risk,
00:13:40
Speaker
which are very technical, so when you have to make decisions you need those parameters. We also provide an overall assessment on the biological quality of the soil, which is strictly or closely connected to the intensity of human practices or human intervention in the field.
00:13:57
Speaker
At the end of the day, a way to reflect how respectful, how sustainable you are. And it's a reliable metric and it's a rating system. So this solution is so amazing when you start looking at the impact of the different practices, the different regions with the different practices and historical farming practices that they were implementing for solo, which one were working better
00:14:23
Speaker
wars and how food companies are leveraging this rating system to pay a plus to those farmers doing or spending or investing on more regenerative agriculture and they were differentiating the crops and the end product that is the one we find in the store in the supermarket because
00:14:47
Speaker
Now they have a reliable and independent driven by science metric to measure the sustainability of the farm practices.
Challenges in Clean Tech Adoption
00:14:59
Speaker
Their great innovation is clean tech space, but can you talk a little bit about challenges that are facing this kind of innovation? How are people reacting to it? Are they accepting it quickly or it goes slow?
00:15:15
Speaker
so interesting question because when we talk about the clean tech challenges there are many I mean adoption for sure is one thing I really see that the people is really open to explore to scout for new tools new technologies that are going to help to overcome the the challenges that
00:15:35
Speaker
that they have for sure. This is something that is happening and we see more people coming to us. Initially we're pushing a completely new technology, completely new dimension, new tools. So you have to show the rules and let's say create awareness about them. Push your market, create the market. But now we see that
00:15:57
Speaker
is happening in the other way around. So people is coming to us, we don't have to too much push them, they are coming and they already have knowledge about what we know or what we do. So I will say that the mind, the people is quite open not to accept a clean tech. What are the challenges? Well, feasibility from the mainly economical point of view.
00:16:21
Speaker
And then education is another challenge that we see quite frequently. That's the reason because, for instance, we have created a training initiative for what we call BCAs, big crop advisors or biological crop advisors, to help them to utilize the insights that we deliver because
00:16:45
Speaker
I mean, most of the agronomists, in this case, they don't have so much training about how to manage soil biology in an efficient way. So what we realize is, hey, why don't we open all the knowledge that we have? And we ask our clients to share experiences on what worked for them based on a certain situation, what didn't work for them under
00:17:08
Speaker
other situation. So everybody start learning and we crowd knowledge, create this crowd knowledge base on best practices for soil management. So education is one of the challenges issues that we find, but at the same time economical feasibility, not because when you are going to spend time in a new tool and you still don't have a clear idea
00:17:34
Speaker
What is the return that you are going to get? Well, then you start questioning the value of the technology. The good thing is that in agriculture, especially, it works always the same. People test the technology, have a first feeling on what is the value perception. And once they try and they see the benefits of using this layer of data, then they just keep doing it and expand the operations
00:18:03
Speaker
to all the dimensions. Connecting to clean tech, I will say the challenges are a little bit wider because we're using, especially for climate change, a metric that is carbon, not carbon sequestration, carbon metrics. And sometimes it's quite challenging to measure the tons of carbon that you are actually sequester, especially because
00:18:32
Speaker
Spring house gases is not just about carbon, it's about holders. The good thing is that researchers have already correlated those other gases with carbon metrics, which is great. I mean, talking about methane, which is 25 times more pollutant
00:18:50
Speaker
than carbon dioxide or thinking about, for instance, the nitrous oxide, which is 300 times more pollutant than carbon dioxide and is one of the main greenhouse gases that farming
00:19:07
Speaker
can be emitting actively, depending on the farming practices that you have. And this is also connected to the efficiency of nitrogen management in the field. So if you activate this pathway of the biological activity of the nitrogen into the field, increase the fertility efficiency for the plant.
00:19:29
Speaker
then probably you are releasing less nitrous oxide, which at the end of the day counts highly on greenhouse emissions. But the challenge, again, is to measure the amount, because in the case of the soil, carbon is a cycle. So you sequester, but you at the same time release carbon. And how much carbon is storied into the soil?
00:19:54
Speaker
short-term, mid-term, long-term. What is the overall carbon capacity of the soil? Those are questions that still remain unsolved. In other sectors, the measurement of the carbon is a little bit more straightforward. In the case of agriculture, I would say calculating the carbon footprint and then talking about clean tech is a little bit more challenging.
00:20:18
Speaker
Yeah, I understand. You know what I'm interested in? You said that in the beginning you had to push your brand in the market.
Adapting BioMakers' Branding with Tech Trends
00:20:25
Speaker
So when you're starting out, did you think about what kind of identity, what kind of brand you wanted by makers to have? Excellent question, because I would say, yes, entrepreneurs have a clear idea on everything. There is a detailed plan. This is what we pitch to investors. But I would say that
00:20:47
Speaker
Sometimes you have to keep some room for improvement, depending on what you see, how you analyze the world, what are the information that you are getting, because this keeps updating all the time. Then you start having decisions. So for sure, you have a key, a path that you want to follow. We wanted to build a profitable company that, at the same time, were mission driven.
00:21:12
Speaker
that will help actually or actively agriculture to be a little bit more efficient, do things in a better, smarter way. And we wanted that to be our contribution because we know the technology, we know the science, so how we develop a tool that can actually help. And this is what is the basics on what you want to do.
00:21:35
Speaker
But from there, which kind of identity or which kind of from the branding point of view or even from the messaging point of view as well. I guess that developed as well. Yes, Ali. And there is something that I observed in the tech space that there are a lot of friendly topics or terms that get outdated so quick. Like what?
00:22:03
Speaker
big data and then machine learning, deep learning. And now everybody's talking about artificial intelligence and you have to include that into the pitch. Somehow you are forced because otherwise you will be out of the scope. But at the end of the day, when you think about what you are actually doing is pretty much the same. So you are collecting data, trying to get as much value out of the data as possible and learn from the data.
00:22:32
Speaker
in order to deliver better results in the time. And then if you are able to model and identify patterns and based on those patterns that are being adjusted as you keep learning progressively, then you have better insights and then we can start talking about prediction. So in essence, the technology evolution or development is pretty much the same determines that you use for that.
00:22:55
Speaker
It might be changing. So we try to get out of those trends. But for sure, you have to be somehow there. But it's so interesting how quick these terms get outdated. Last week, I was in the world at Red Tech in San Francisco. And we were speaking with people in that event. I was like, hey, how many times have you heard about artificial intelligence?
00:23:24
Speaker
So three, three years, well, four years ago, because three years ago, we had the pandemic. So four years ago, nobody was talking about artificial intelligence, but machine learning was a trend topic in all of our climate tech or clean tech, you know, these terms. But yeah, beyond the terms themselves, what I love is that the core messages remain the same.
00:23:50
Speaker
the form, how we show them might change slightly, but the rest, the bottom is what is important. And what role do you think marketing has in your success? Amazing. I mean, I would say marketing is probably 60% of our success so far from the beginning, because first getting presence is important. This is a marketing task. And then
00:24:19
Speaker
Creating awareness is another thing and I have to say, I have to be extremely thankful because we found so many support in the way since we started from all the accelerators.
00:24:32
Speaker
and incubators that have been helping us. All the mentors, friends, partners that have been also introducing to people, presenting us, I mean, podcasts as yours are extremely useful to provide awareness. And sometimes I'm telling my marketing team, hey, I have the feeling that I'm repeating the same conversations all the time. And they're like, no, no.
00:24:58
Speaker
keep in mind that the work is so big. So if just 10 new people listen this and they are aware of what we're doing, that's part of the achievement and we have succeeded. We have achieved the goal that we were pushing. So yeah, marketing is extremely important and we've been investing all the time in marketing and also because you don't realize how many headlines you are developing
00:25:28
Speaker
all the time, collaborations with people in discoveries that we do at technological level, success cases, partnerships. So there are so many things happening that you want to tell everybody. The problem is that there are so many contents out there, some of them more useful than others, some of them for fun, others for learning, others for different
00:25:52
Speaker
kind of contents and get visibility is one of the key challenges. So what kind of content worked for you? What kind of content worked for your company? Because in the world of startups, there are some companies that promise a lot
00:26:14
Speaker
But at the end of the day, it's so difficult to deliver something that is trustable and reliable. So as a startup, to be perceived as a trustable, solid, consistent startup, this is a challenge. We've been very diligent and intensive on doing a lot of technical communication.
00:26:36
Speaker
more like science-driven communication to show that, hey, what we do have some backup. And it's not that we collaborate. No, no. Here you have the list of collaborations that we do. Here you have the projects that we support. Here you have the publications that are scientific publications really in on our technology here. So getting public exposure is extremely important. And communication in that way,
00:27:04
Speaker
has been key because otherwise you cannot gain credibility in this market and you might be creating a technology that
00:27:13
Speaker
Even my work that nobody believes is going to work. So you want to differentiate and be one that, hey, we do things in the right way. And also the experience working with us is great. So yeah, technical communications, science driven communications based on the excellence. This is one of the values we have in the company, you know, pursuing the excellence. If you do something, it's because you think it's good enough. Otherwise,
00:27:40
Speaker
And well, that's a great answer. And my last question for you is, what are your plans for the future and what are your hopes for the future of sustainability in general?
Future Growth and Sustainability Goals
00:27:54
Speaker
Wow, so interesting. Give me a little room to explain. Well, two answers here. On one hand, what are our hope as a company for the future?
00:28:08
Speaker
Well, we want to keep growing the current business, keep doubling our traction. We work with tier one players in the industry from equipment manufacturers, retailers, food companies. So we want to keep pushing that because most of them are still starting to test the
00:28:29
Speaker
the technology to use the technology as a tool so we want them to really incorporate that tool widely and that's going to help us to be really successful as a company but also to for the commitment that our team has to the whole company for all the challenges that
00:28:48
Speaker
that we are facing. So that's what we hope for the company to keep growing and at the same time evolve all the portfolio services that we have.
00:29:01
Speaker
cool features to come. As we learn on the soil dynamics, what we have realized is that we can start predicting first if a solution is going to be working properly in a field to increase or improve, let's say, not just increase, improve the biological activity related to farming. So that gives us the room for narrow down a little bit more the
00:29:30
Speaker
prescriptions, the recommendations that we provide to our economy. So right now, we have a tool that is providing insights, amazing, useful insights. But the question is, can we do more for our clients, be better tools? For sure. So we're doing that in the
00:29:50
Speaker
in the garage, in the back office. The data science team is showing things that are impressive. So this is probably something that will come, going more into what we call personalized agriculture and thinking even beyond. Imagine we have all the automatization in the field and we can prescribe
00:30:14
Speaker
very specifically what would be the right inputs or the right applications and the machines talk each other. And then humans see that everything works well and then we'll have really high yields and we'll also preserve this life of the soil, this natural fertility of the soil. This is the hope that I have for the company, keep growing the business and providing higher value.
00:30:40
Speaker
Yeah, but do you believe that technology like yours will play a major role in agriculture in the future or maybe will be the future of agriculture?
00:30:49
Speaker
It will play a key role for sure, but it will not be the only technology that will play a role. This is a collaborative before we are adding or contributing in our area of expertise, which is specifically understanding the soil dynamics. And based on that, you know, helping to manage the soil more efficiently. But for sure, there are so many cool technologies out there that are going to be playing a role.
00:31:15
Speaker
And as we define which ones are the best, and we put them together, and we work together, we're going to make a change. I don't believe individuals are able to change the work, but somebody has to be the trigger. And then we all join that trigger, and then there is this change effect to make a huge change.
00:31:38
Speaker
Yeah. So this is from the company. And when you say about clean tech, what I hope is just connected to that for a more responsible way of producing food and a more responsible way of consuming. Of course. That's a different area. We are into the supply.
00:31:57
Speaker
trying to overcome and to face the challenges on the supply chain side, sorry. But for sure, as consumers, it's our duty to be a little bit more flexible, more diligent and more conscious on how we consume. The coming years are going to be crucial. We are facing really interesting economic landscape.
00:32:21
Speaker
And probably we have to change our perception of how the consumption and the work is going to work. So we come from the abundance where we can access to anything, anytime, and discard what we don't like. And yeah, this is not really sustainable. And if we want to care for the planet and be here for so many generations,
00:32:46
Speaker
And for sure, this is not for our generation, I think. I mean, we'll do it more or less if we get to all. But thinking in the generations to come and the life preservation, the human life preservation in Earth, yeah, we need to evolve the way we consume and how we manage the waste. 30% of the food is waste. Pre-going into the supermarket, but when
00:33:11
Speaker
it gets into the supermarket, I don't have the statistic. But my guess is that probably a similar amount or even bigger. Because when I see the lines, not the corridors in the supermarket, food or fresh food, I cannot think about all the people consuming such amount of food at the same time and so much meat. So probably this is my hope that we're smart enough to evolve the way we consume and the way we care for the
00:33:40
Speaker
limited resources we have to handle. That's a great message for the end of this podcast.
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:33:46
Speaker
Adrian, thank you so much for taking your time for Green New Perspective. I love this interview. I hope our audience is going to love it as well. They can ask you questions under in the comment section. We'll answer them. Do you have something else to tell to our audience?
00:34:09
Speaker
I appreciate the work that you do, especially to bring attention about these topics that probably when we live in certain areas of lifestyle, keep us busy and sometimes we have to stop and think about what is happening in the world that is not so obvious. I was last week invited in a conference in Colombia in Medellin and the conference was about low technology and innovation.
00:34:36
Speaker
They invited me to speak about innovation in agriculture, but I was listening to other speakers talking about other areas of knowledge, and it was so rewarding to see how people are using technology, what are the challenges that we are facing, how obsessed we are
00:34:57
Speaker
to make this work better. So it's so important that you bring the attention to these areas and appreciate that. And yeah, for sure, happy to answer any questions. The good thing of, I would say, entrepreneurs is that we are so easy to approach and so open. We are busy, for sure. But still, we love to receive questions, comments, and talk deeper about all these topics.
00:35:23
Speaker
I have to say that it's totally true. Every guest of mine has been really great, really open to conversation. So yeah, I'm super glad that I had this opportunity to meet you and talk to you all. So thank you again.
00:35:39
Speaker
Once again, thanks for tuning in to Green Your Perspective podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our channel and leave a comment with your thoughts and feedback. We would really appreciate that. Your support helps us to bring more inspiring guests and thought provoking discussions on sustainability. So let's work together towards a more sustainable future, one conversation at a time. Until next time, bye.