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Krista Pineau | EcoCERT Canada
77 Plays4 months ago
Each and every episode of Aisle 42 highlights the intersections between sustainable food and beverage making, the industry the supports them and consumers that give a damn about our health and the world around us.
In this conversation with Krista from EcoCERT Canada we cover some really interesting ground around food growing and manufacturing, biodiversity, respect for the planet, and how ethical practices can impact the souls of those behind our food supply chain.
We'll also delve into the wonderful world of Fair for Life certification.
Whether you're curious about how certification processes work or interested in how they impact the food you buy, this episode will make you think differently about your next trip to the grocery store.
To learn more about how Krista’s beloved certification is making the word a better place go to https://fairforlife.org.
To learn about who is behind this podcast go to: https://www.ethicalfoodgroup.com/podcast
Here’s a summary of this interview:
Vision for the Future Grocery Store: Krista imagines a grocery store that emphasizes diversity in food, packaging, and architecture, promoting sustainability and respect for people and the planet.
EcoCERT Overview: EcoCERT is an international certification body focused on sustainability, with a range of standards, including organic certifications and Fair for Life, among others.
Role of Certifications: Krista emphasizes the importance of certifications like Fair for Life in ensuring that products meet high environmental and social standards, particularly in fair trade practices.
Fair for Life Certification: This certification goes beyond traditional fair trade, emphasizing social and environmental responsibility, as well as robust relationships between producers and buyers.
Challenges in Consumer Understanding: Communicating the complexity of certifications like Fair for Life to consumers through a simple logo is a significant challenge, but it's crucial for transparency.
Importance of Diversity in the Supply Chain: Krista advocates for diversity across the entire supply chain, from sourcing and production to packaging and store design, to support sustainability.
Certification Standards and Global Consistency: Krista's role involves ensuring that certification standards are applied consistently worldwide, regardless of where the certified operations are located.
Audit and Label Fatigue: EcoCERT is aware of the challenges companies face with multiple certifications and audits, and they are working to streamline processes to reduce this burden.
Support for Smaller, Committed Brands: Fair for Life certification is more stringent and often appeals to smaller brands that are deeply committed to ethical practices.
Future of Fair for Life: While Fair for Life may not reach the mass marketing levels of other certifications, it remains a crucial standard for ensuring transparency and ethical practices in the food system.
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Transcript
Introduction to Sustainable Food and Beverages
00:00:00
Speaker
This is aisle 42.
00:00:07
Speaker
Each and every episode of IL-42 highlights the intersections between sustainable food and beverage making, the industry that supports them, and consumers that give a damn about our health and the world around
Biodiversity and Ethical Practices with Krista
00:00:17
Speaker
us. In this conversation with Krista from EcoSert Canada, we cover some really interesting ground around growing and manufacturing, biodiversity, respect for the planet, and how ethical practices can impact the souls of those behind our food supply chain.
00:00:31
Speaker
We also delve into the wonderful world of Fair for Life certification. Whether you're curious about how certification processes work, or interested in how they impact the food that you buy, this episode will make you think differently about your next trip to the grocery store. Okay,
Impact of Certifications on Shopping Habits
00:00:47
Speaker
here we go. Here's Krista from EcoCert Canada.
00:00:53
Speaker
Christo, I know we're going to nerd out in a second. I know this is going to get really fun really quick, but in aisle 42 fashion, I have to kick things off with the big question. And that is, if you could imagine the perfect grocery store of the future, what would it look like? Thanks. Yeah. So I have listened to your podcast a little bit and I was ready for this question.
EcoSert's Mission and Certification Standards
00:01:15
Speaker
So for me, I think everything comes down to diversity. For me, the perfect grocery store of the future, it would be one that allows people and the planet to flourish. So for me, having people on the planet flourish through diversity, that would mean things like diversity in our food. So if we're talking about both local and international food,
00:01:39
Speaker
Those are coming from sources. The origin is in a place that respects biodiversity, that has things that are diverse, and they're traded, they're produced and traded in a way that actually respects people in the planet along the whole supply chain. So whether we're talking about prices, which is a huge part, or if we're talking about the way they're transported and the carbon emissions of that, whether we're talking about the packaging,
00:02:02
Speaker
All of those things are done in a way across the whole supply chain that really not just protect or support people, but really allow things to flourish.
Nature-Inspired Architecture and Packaging Diversity
00:02:12
Speaker
And so, I mean, one thing I'm really curious about, and I mean, it doesn't really fit into our conversation of later, but it's also the architecture. So diversity in nature inspired architecture, having places that we go into that aren't just a copy and paste, you know, no matter where you set up your store,
00:02:28
Speaker
It always looks the same, it's always kind of constructed using concrete and nature's out there and the store is in here, but using biomimicry and nature inspired designs for our stores that actually reflect the culture and the nature that they're in, in each of their places they're set up. For me, that that's a really cool component.
00:02:45
Speaker
and diversity and packaging. Same thing, we're not doing copy-paste that plastic is kind of the the go-to default that no matter what your product is it's packaged in plastic, but thinking about that packaging as part of the product and having that as part of the diversity. So walking into a store that promotes diversity in all of its forms and across the supply chain, I think for me that would be that we're hitting a lot of the boxes of of what a I don't know about perfect, but an ideal grocery store for the the future could be.
Curated Shopping Experiences
00:03:17
Speaker
Well, you've injected a lot of creativity into that answer, and it's inspiring. and It does sound challenging, but I think one of the things as a can you know as ah as a grocery shopper is we both them you know buy our groceries. It can be a very mind-numbing, soul-sucking experience when we're trying to fill our carts, right? Yeah, very much the the neon light experience of get it over and done with.
00:03:42
Speaker
Yeah, I was buying groceries on ah on a small island in the Georgia Strait off the west coast of of Vancouver and it was maybe a little bit like kind of what you're saying where it was There were kind of weaving paths and there were you know there was a store, but it was you know surrounded by beautiful trees and the aisles were kind of more of a meandering aisle scenario. It wasn't a big grid. And it was very, every product I felt like was carefully curated. Obviously, sometimes that comes with a little bit of a premium price. Well, it was also on a small island, so everything's a little bit more expensive in that circumstance.
EcoCert's Standards and Fair for Life
00:04:19
Speaker
But I left the experience going, that was fun. And grocery shopping just to you know buy some meals isn't always fun. So I think that that idea of diversity and sort of the exploration where we can come across things that maybe we haven't seen for a while or never seen before, or we haven't tasted in this format before, it can get really, really fun. And when we can focus on maybe less on calories and less on some of the big gears that a lot of us are sort of on rinse and repeat on, but we get to explore a little bit. I think that makes for a wonderful world. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So why don't you take listeners through a little bit about what it is that you do, what eco cert is all about, and what it is that's driving you guys in the future to make grocery shopping a little less scary and a little easier for consumers that want to buy consciously.
00:05:14
Speaker
Yeah, sounds good. So EcoSert, we are an international group. Our headquarters are in France, actually. I'm based in Canada with our subsidiary EcoSert Canada, but we are a certification body. So generally speaking, we have a repertoire of about 200 to 300 different ah standards that we work with.
00:05:38
Speaker
And our mission is to act for a sustainable world within EcoSearch. That is everything we do is aligned with that. So these different standards that we work with, they are within large different
Role in CSR and Fair Trade at EcoCert
00:05:51
Speaker
categories. They can be things that you might be very used to seeing on the shelves, like the organic certifications, whether it's Canadian organic standard or the NOP for the u USDA organic certification.
00:06:04
Speaker
European one those are kind of the the most well known. But we also do things like the FSC for the for its stewardship Council. ah We're in aquaculture, the G OTS, the organic certification for textiles.
00:06:20
Speaker
all over the place. We're doing a lot now in the the carbon, getting into plastics, a lot of things across the board. We have kind of our different divisions within EcoSearch, so EcoProducts, the CSR and Fair Trade, corporate show Corporate Social Responsibility and Fair Trade, and the organic, yes. So where I stand is in this Corporate Social Responsibility, CSR and Fair Trade Unit.
00:06:46
Speaker
And my responsibility, ah I guess my title is the Certification Manager, and essentially for our 25 labels, certifications that we have within the CSR and Fair Trade Department, you could kind of say I'm managing the, a little bit like quality management, but that sounds super boring.
Interpreting Certification Standards
00:07:05
Speaker
So I like to say that across the different offices we work with, I'm making sure that if somebody is being certified, ah a company, a brand, a farm is being certified to something like our Fair for Life, Fair Trade Certification, that no matter if they're in India or Burkina Faso or Chile, the standards and the interpretation of our standards within EcoSearch, the way we're applying the process is, that's the same. So really this harmonization of the understanding of our collaborators within EcoSearch.
00:07:39
Speaker
So my job would be developing those tools and processes in the background, training our staff, whether it's the people who are working in the office or on the field as auditors, and making sure that all of those are harmonized as much as we can. And certifications are tricky because you're writing something in in black and white on a paper. i like I come back to this. So if you've ever heard me speak before, I often say certification standards, they're written in black and white, but life is in color.
00:08:07
Speaker
Right. So we have these standards as a certification body. We go on site to, to kind of score if somebody is compliant or not. But in reality, things aren't always black and white. And so I think a lot of my job is also working in that color area and saying, okay, if this company isn't exactly this or exactly that, how do we interpret that within the standard?
Fair for Life Certification and Branding Challenges
00:08:29
Speaker
And most of my work circulates and and is focused on this fair for life fair trade certification within eco search.
00:08:35
Speaker
Yeah, and let's go there. I think, you know, of the certifications that consumers are most familiar with, obviously we mentioned organic already. There's four or five that, you know, we're probably used to seeing on front of pack when we're, you know, picking something up off the shelf, or when we turn the packs over and we see a a deeper explanation of what's behind these ingredients and what's behind this product and how it was made and where it was from.
00:09:00
Speaker
But it's the fair for life fair trade certification that I think is really interesting. weve We have talked a little bit about it on aisle 42 along the way. But when consumers are kind of learning about fair for life, can I ask like, what's the feedback you guys are getting? Where are consumers landing with? Do they understand what's behind it? to do Do the brands tell a good story around their fair for life certification? I'd love your perspective on that.
00:09:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question. And it is something that that's a challenge I'd say across the board. Something like even organic, the understanding of what that truly means can get a little blurry and and they are kind of focused. Something like non-GMO, they've had a lot of success because it's very clear. The logo says what it is, what it means. There's not a lot of space for interpretation.
Communication of Fair for Life Certification
00:09:52
Speaker
you This is what you get. As soon as you move into things that are a little more complex, little a little more, let's say, rounded out, that we're looking at robust systems, it does get more complicated. So for Fair for Life, we are hitting, we have nine chapters within the ah standard, but we're hitting that social component. We're hitting the environmental. What are the practices of the operations we're certifying?
00:10:15
Speaker
And then we get even more complicated, or I'd say robust, that we're looking at the relationships between actors. So that's a key part of what we do. We call them trade criteria. um How are the contracts and the commercial relationships happening between farms and their buyers? What does that relationship look like? What's the volumes, the the kind of forecasting that can happen, the stability that they put in place?
00:10:41
Speaker
And to get that communicated to consumers through just a tiny little logo on a product. it's a lot It's a big ask. So the way where we kind of operate is we don't have a huge budget for these kind of education campaigns. We don't charge royalties to brands to use the logo on their products. But we've kind of flipped the question around to say to brands, if you want to be certified for it for life, that's great. We won't charge you for the logo. We'll come in very much as a certification body and check if you're responding to the criteria or not.
00:11:13
Speaker
But as a brand, you already have this full team that's doing marketing. You have this communications department and you're telling your story. And so we integrate into the fair for life standard, these criteria around communication. So we'll we'll often talk about brand ambassadors, someone like Harmless Harvest, who I know you've had on the the show before. They're great. They talk about fair for life. They talk about what they're doing. And that's the intention. That's really the push that brands own that certification. They integrate it. They weave it into the stories they're already telling.
00:11:44
Speaker
And ah it is difficult, but I think brands are doing a great job and they are getting more requests from consumers, ah from the legal, the legislation and how that is going right now. So it's becoming more and more requested.
00:12:01
Speaker
And what was the gap that, you know, I think fair trade, maybe it was in coffee that we really, when it first kind of really struck consumers, this would have been a number of years ago, but, you know, fair trade coffee became very prevalent. Everyone's sort of understanding it, but fair for life kind of feels like version 2.0 and it's certainly, I knew alluded to it, it's more,
00:12:25
Speaker
about the relationships and in harmless harvest sake it was about the farmers and their and their buyers and their sort of the people in the system to help bring you know coconuts to to a food company and so there's a number of people along the way that make that happen and you know they're all businesses they all play their part.
00:12:44
Speaker
But it was sort it's a level of transparency where the consumer can say, oh everyone's being taken care of, there's respect, there's living wages, there's aspirations to, especially on the farming side, like make their life and their well you know improve their well-being.
00:13:02
Speaker
But as soon as you get into a layer, like a second layer, consumers can sort of start to tap out like, hey, I just wanted something that tasted good. I just wanted something I could afford. Or I need twice the volume of that because I have, you know, five people to feed. I just would love to know, do you feel like there's still room for brands to really celebrate these certifications or is it just too much? No, I don't think it's too much. I think for sure.
00:13:30
Speaker
People want to know are the people being treated well and without knowing all of the details on how a floor price is said how much of the fund is going to this one or that one and how the fund is being used I mean those are those are great things for people that want to take it really deep, but for the most part.
00:13:44
Speaker
seeing the little orange logo of Fair for Life, knowing that means that there has been a verification of a validation of the supply chain and that those farmers, yeah, they've been checked and and things are things are going all right in terms of what the the certification covers. I mean, for a lot of people, like you say, that's enough.
00:14:02
Speaker
And I think the the logo does do a good job of that and brands can kind of, I feel like they have a good pulse on their consumer base as well. And being able to sort of put the needle where they need to in terms of the depth of, I guess, explanation that goes into to what's behind the logo.
Consumer Trust and Fair for Life Standards
00:14:18
Speaker
And I mean, another, you mentioned the front of pack and it's a great point because one of the things that I think Fair for Life is well known for or that sets us apart is that actually we have the highest threshold, we have the highest percentage of ingredients that need to go into a product to use the logo on the front of pack. So if you see that Fair for Life logo on the front of a package, it means that at least 80% of the product is coming from Fair for Life sources. And the other Fair Trade certifications are not that high. ah So it does mean we are less visible when you're walking along a grocery store aisle and you're looking at those products.
00:14:53
Speaker
So it is for sure a different communication piece and you kind of got to take ah pick up that product and look on the back and look on the side. And yet the logo can be used for above 20% on the side of our back package, but it does mean sometimes we're less visible. And that's been applauded because it means we're you know quite strict. And if you see it, it means it's a very high percentage product, but it also means for consumers, you got to do a bit more homework.
00:15:17
Speaker
That's interesting. I didn't know that ah piece of the puzzle. Fair for life certainly signals to consumers that there's a level of trust that isn't found in a lot of food, which makes probably both you and I very sad to know that the grocery store shelves are full of so much product, so many ingredients that don't have that level of transparency that don't take their supply chain into consideration. And I think when consumers make choices that they feel better about, that adds on to the layer of, oh, and this also tastes good, or my family also loves it. And it kind of creates a level of maybe a little bit of pride, maybe a little bit of that feel good feeling where when we know we're filling our shelves and our pantries and our fridges with products and and whole foods and processed foods and things that come from all over the all over the world. I was just talking to someone this morning about about bananas.
00:16:12
Speaker
I was just going to bring up bananas. Yeah, bananas. It's a hot one. It's a hot one. And it's one of those things where I think consumers especially the and we're seeing it in the data that younger consumers expectations of can I trust a brand and if I do, I'm going to be more loyal to them.
00:16:31
Speaker
I think that's a very real thing. And I get excited when I see brands lean into that and say, you can trust us and you can trust us for a long time. And we're going to make sure that we're making something that you can be proud of. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, one of the things that we're trying to do a lot is, ah there is this label fatigue, which you might hear sometimes about the labels going on brands.
00:16:54
Speaker
There's also audit fatigue for the brands themselves and the number of audits they have to go through with the brands, but also the the farmers too. I'd say sometimes more the farmers often. That audit fatigue is real. And if I bring back the the conversation to EcoSearch as a certification body, it is something we're very in tune with. And a lot of our approaches are going towards pairing audits and trying to reduce that fatigue for for companies as well. Because more certifications you have, more people are coming in, more resources are putting towards just demonstrating compliance rather than actually
00:17:29
Speaker
doing good so as much as possible ah we are trying to kind of bridge that and make it easier for companies so that they can do you know one audit that covers three different standards and they can use that logo those logos and communicate but really reduce that financial and and time burden for them as well.
Future Consumer Education Campaigns
00:17:47
Speaker
I love that you said that because i you know the farmers all the way through to the food makers, i mean they're they're struggling when it comes to the economy and inflation and interest rates and labor costs and supply chain. It's really hard for a lot of them to make, especially the ones that are leaning into the hard areas, it can get really expensive. and some of these certifications and these accountability and transparency pieces as their values may align with them, but their pocketbook just might and they need to be able to make money so they can keep doing what they're doing. And I love that you're making that ah easier for them. So that's very cool.
00:18:24
Speaker
Are we ever going to see a fair for life like campaign on billboards on tv and and TV? I don't know who watches ads on TV anymore. I guess maybe during hockey season, but I did watch TV last night. for Yeah, exactly. so Game seven Stanley Cup. Do you see a place where like a time down the road where consumers will be really well and easily educated around fair for life. Maybe that's the marketer in me asking that. I just, I get very excited about the idea. The billboards. No, um honestly, the billboards. No, I think it will continue to increase in popularity.
Niche Impact of Fair for Life Certification
00:19:03
Speaker
However, I don't think we will ever be at the same level as some of the other fair trade certifications that are out there. And I say that for a couple of reasons. We're different. If we were the same, we would not have a reason to exist.
00:19:17
Speaker
We do have some pretty, I'll say stringent ah criteria regarding eligibility. So we do have a question before anybody, we sign a contract with them ah for fair for life that asks them.
00:19:29
Speaker
Do you have any accusations or allegations of social and environmental mishaps in the last 10 years? And so that kind of puts a filter on the brands who are becoming certified with us. And that's not something that all fair trade certifications have. So the access to those big campaigns, ah the ones that'll make a splash are usually connected to the kind of brands that have that marketing power.
00:19:56
Speaker
And the brands we're working with are generally a little smaller or not always, but they have a clean history. Or if they don't have a clean history, they've demonstrated sufficient work to correct the damages and ensure they don't happen again.
Transparency and Ethical Practices in Fair for Life
00:20:10
Speaker
So we will remain a smaller one. And I don't think that's a bad thing.
00:20:15
Speaker
But the brands we are working with are the committed ones. They're being well known now for things, yes, with the fair trade and and the fair for life that they're doing, but also the other initiatives they have, whether it's on the carbon front, the regenerative organic, whatever it may be. And I think that's, that can be a good thing. Are there any standout brands, any ones you can give a shout out to that you feel like the work that they've done in the fair trade and fair for life movement that you feel like they're just, they're remarkable at what they do?
00:20:45
Speaker
I don't know if I'm allowed to as a certification buddy. I don't know. I just asked you. That's your problem. You don't have to answer that. Well, I kind of have to mention Dr. Broners. They are, I think they were pivotal since the very beginning before it was even EcoSearch who was working with Fair for Life from the very, very beginning. And yeah, their supply chain is incredible and they've done great things to help keep the standards strong and working with the Fair for Life standard throughout the years.
00:21:13
Speaker
so They've for sure been a ah key partner throughout the years with our US market, especially. That's great. Wonderful. Well, thank you for the time for kind of going behind the scenes a little bit for the consumer's sake and for the sake of the, you know, all all the people that care about the food system and making it a healthier one and a more transparent one. I think that's where the the battle will be won in the food system with transparency. And though some brands that are certified in certain things that I don't quite fully understand, and I think probably the best example of that is, you know,
00:21:47
Speaker
i had was talking with christie o'leary about my concerns around and espresso being b-corp certified and you know and she reminded me she's like you know what. Perfect is the enemy of good and just the more companies that are willing to go through levels of transparency and improve.
Further Information and Listener Engagement
00:22:05
Speaker
We should probably try to find ways to know be grateful for that and celebrate that and and just continually you know make that baseline higher and higher and higher. And if I may, yeah, just on on that point, it is something we consider a lot both within ECOSERT and through the Fair for Life standard is that we we have offerings that are varying degrees of say robustness or the the ways they're they're working and through the Fair for Life standard, we say, if you're already certified Rainforest Alliance, like that's great. You can be considered compliant or we can accept that as part of the standard. So let's build on what you already have and then complete it with a complimentary kind of add-on. And I think that that's a really cool part of how the Fair for Life standard is created is it's helping operations to take that next step, but without necessarily doubling what they've already done.
00:22:56
Speaker
Yeah, so important, isn't it? I think it's great. So where can people learn more about what you guys are doing for the food system? Oh, well, great last tag, fairforlife.org.
00:23:08
Speaker
Our new website is going to be launched at the, but before the end of this year. I don't want to set a specific date, but ah before the end of this year, we're getting a new website. So hold on to your hats. That's coming. And I'm very excited to to see it published in the coming months. Yes, fairforlife.org will have a great database where you can find all the brands who are certified on all the different operations that are working with us that are Careful Life certified today.
00:23:33
Speaker
I love it. Good deal. Krista, thank you for the time and for all that you and your team are doing to make the food system a better one. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed learning a little bit more about organic and fair trade standards. And to learn more about everything that Krista and EcoSert are doing for people on the planet, go to fairforlife.org.
00:23:52
Speaker
Okay, that's a wrap, but before I let you go, I'd love to hear from you. If there's a food founder or a food industry professional that you'd like to hear on the aisle 42 podcast, let me know. Just email Corwin at ethicalfoodgroup.com. All right, thanks for being an ethical shopper, a conscious consumer, and a dedicated listener. I'll see you in the future.