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Season Seven: Highway to Hell Part 3: The Other Side
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In this episode, we talk about the road trip to hell murders in the Southwest United States.
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Sources:
Various News Sources Mentioned by Name
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Transcript
Introduction and Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
Capture and Initial Investigation
00:00:25
Speaker
This is True Crime
00:00:58
Speaker
When we left off, we kind of wrapped up after this massacre that Willie Stillman and Doug Retzler have been caught.
00:01:12
Speaker
Investigators go through their car. They find that they there's bloodstained boots. There's bloodstained jeans. They have a like a brown grocery sack, and it's filled with essentially everything that belonged to the people they had killed and then looted in the park and residence.
00:01:34
Speaker
So... Obviously, you have a massacre. And that's like that kind of massacre, that many people dying and more people joining them, coming over to help or to figure out what's going on, where you end up with like this, like entire families are wiped out, essentially, is going to result in a lot of interrogation.
00:02:00
Speaker
so They have to figure out like where to do this. They decide that Sacramento County investigators, they're going to be the first ones to have a crack on them.
Interrogation and Confessions
00:02:12
Speaker
And they start interrogating them questioning them, interviewing them in relation to the murders at the house on Orchard Road. They end up transferring them by the evening of November the 8th.
00:02:27
Speaker
to San Joaquin authorities. So essentially they're going to be held, ah until they can go to trial. So they separately take them both to French camp, which is in San Joaquin County. It's a real small town.
00:02:42
Speaker
Um, they have them under armed guard. I'm pretty sure.
00:02:48
Speaker
i'm pretty sure. They
00:02:52
Speaker
they have um
00:02:58
Speaker
pictures of them where they are in the um like the bulletproof vest, they're doing the whole thing. They put them in solitary confinement in this place called a dual vocational institution.
00:03:11
Speaker
They don't let them get their story straight. So they're holding them in a state prison. um If I remember correctly, that particular DVI, that particular state prison has been closed. It was closed during COVID.
00:03:27
Speaker
So Willie Stillman, he doesn't talk very much related to the murders. He wants an attorney. And once he gets an attorney, the attorney advises him to shut up.
00:03:41
Speaker
And he listens. He refuses, at least initially, to talk with any investigators. Now, Doug, on the other hand, he does end up speaking to police from Arizona.
00:03:53
Speaker
And he ends up speaking with police from California.
00:03:59
Speaker
The way that he approaches this is early on in the conversations, he's cooperating, but like he's minimizing and being kind of evasive, which that makes sense to me if you've committed the types of murders that these people guys have committed.
00:04:19
Speaker
um But he basically tells the investigators from both states that all the abductions and the robberies that they had committed over this three-week period of like what I can only think of as hell on earth, um that it had all been Willie Stillman's idea.
00:04:37
Speaker
And that when it came to the murders themselves, Willie Stillman had committed all of them. And he kind of goes with this idea that not only is he not responsible for the murders, but he was terrified of Willie Stillman.
00:04:59
Speaker
But as they continue to interrogate him and interview him, he gradually reveals that like he is responsible for a number of these murders, as we've kind of laid out here.
00:05:10
Speaker
So by November ninth They have both of these guys in court and they come in on a first appearance for nine counts of first-degree murder. That's specifically for the massacre, the the Orchard Road murders.
00:05:27
Speaker
Now, later on, um like in the coming weeks, they add other charges. Like for that, they also add in kidnapping, they add in robbery, and that's for how they treated people inside of the house, if that makes sense.
00:05:42
Speaker
Both of them end up being assigned public defenders. So Doug Gretzler is a assigned a man named George Dedeckham as his lawyer, and Willie Stillman is assigned Sam Lepicke.
00:05:57
Speaker
By November the 10th, so this is a week from you know the sort of end of things, but it's only three days after they've been like put in custody essentially, because they're put in custody on the 8th.
00:06:15
Speaker
They're in court by the 9th. And by November the 10th, they have collectively confessed to 17 murders. And Willie Stillman, while not really talking about a lot of it, he reveals the locations of some of the different bodies that weren't necessarily going to be found.
00:06:33
Speaker
um That includes of Unreign, Adshade, and Loughran. And To this point, I don't believe that Loughran's disappearance in all of this had been linked to the two of them. So obviously there's going to be some truth to what he's saying because he's telling them things that they did not know.
00:06:56
Speaker
um They're able to find all of their bodies in the coming days. Now, Doug Gretzler, for his part, once Loughran's body is found, he gives a full confession.
00:07:09
Speaker
And he walks them through the events at Orchard Road first. So he starts with the massacre. And his claims are that he had become desensitized to everything that was going on, which is, that's probably not complete horseshit.
00:07:27
Speaker
You know what I mean? I think that you have to be desensitized to be any sort of killer, much less a spree killer, right? Right. And that's how we kind of stay on him. Like,
00:07:39
Speaker
like to have a second episode out of all of this, he basically results to saying that having seen Willie Stillman strangle and stab Unran.
00:07:54
Speaker
So that's, that's Kenneth Francis Unran, the 21 year old we talked about. And he was trying to, Doug says he was trying to strangle Adshade.
00:08:07
Speaker
um The way he describes it in further interviews is that the two had been garroted, so they had like a a ligature around their neck. And his exact quote was, that's the dirtiest way I knew to kill somebody, and that's probably why I couldn't take so many deaths as that.
00:08:22
Speaker
Because after those two, I realized like I couldn't kill mine completely dead because it was making me sick. And he was kicking and he was shuddering. There was blood coming out of his eyes. And I knew by that point that I was sure he was probably half dead with brain damage or something. So I let up.
00:08:43
Speaker
And he says, Bill, Willie Stillman, had to come over and help me finish it. so Basically, he uses that as an example of how everything had affected him. And moving forward, he, this is terrible to say, and it is minimizing behavior, but it's also probably pretty true, that he had to shoot people after that because he couldn't stand to go through that part again. And that's some sort of issue where he can't like process how let's just not kill people. Right. Right.
00:09:19
Speaker
And for their part, investigators, they use this information in the best way possible. They essentially take what Doug has said to them, and they walk into Bill Stillman, to Willie Stillman, and they say, right, he's laid it
Legal Dispute and Trials
00:09:35
Speaker
all on you. What do you got to say?
00:09:38
Speaker
And he can't help but correct some of the things that Doug has said. Now, for his part, Stillman ends up giving a full confession, I mean, at this point, we have all these bodies.
00:09:52
Speaker
We know where these guys were.
00:09:57
Speaker
We have a considerable amount of evidence linking the two of them to all the scenes. So... Bill Willie Stillman, his account of the murders, it's the discrepancies with Doug's are not as big as you might think. And he doesn't really try to put all of it on Doug, per se.
00:10:19
Speaker
But he then it admits to two further killings. So according to what he is saying here, on October 13, 1973, after he and Doug, after they arrived with the girl in Arizona...
00:10:36
Speaker
ah He's going to point out that they have ah allegedly, i don't I don't know how how they put all this together, they have killed someone who is a ah drug dealer they've killed someone who is a drug dealer friend of, I believe, Bill Stillman, named Preacher.
00:10:59
Speaker
And so while everybody else is in the motel room, Willie Stillman apparently left, and like he was gone for half an hour that nobody could account for, including Doug Retzler.
00:11:19
Speaker
Well, that half an hour, he comes back afterwards, and he's disheveled. And the claim is... that maybe he did, maybe he didn't, is is how he phrases this everybody.
00:11:32
Speaker
He says that Preacher had been killed by his own brother and that he and some unknown individual that he titles or that he nicknames Larry, that they had ended up killing Preacher's brother and another man.
00:11:46
Speaker
And Willie Stillman then claims that Larry had taken the three bodies out to the desert, which is out in Arizona, to be buried. There are...
00:11:58
Speaker
No reports of gunshots within the vicinity of the motel that ah there the three of them are staying in. There are no missing persons reports on three men that were ever filed that day.
00:12:10
Speaker
And ultimately, investigators aren't able to look into this account any further. That is like the weirdest part of all this. So we already have 17 murders,
00:12:25
Speaker
But now this guy has essentially added three more murders and an unknown accomplice to this. Any idea why he would do that in your mind? ah Getting it off his chest, I guess.
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, i i I don't understand how... I've always wanted to look into that particular part of this case and figure out if you could if we could like determine who Preacher is and who Preacher's brother was and who Larry was. um i don't a good...
00:12:54
Speaker
i don't have a good handle on whether all of that's accurate. I have poked around at it. um But, know, if you know a guy named Preacher or guy named Larry from Arizona that disappeared in 1973, we'd love to talk to you. Yeah, it seems like um he was just getting a lot off of his chest. I don't think there would be any incentive for him to make that stuff up. It's weird that, like, law enforcement didn't look deeper into it, right?
00:13:25
Speaker
Right. They tried to. They they ultimately, they weren't able to do anything with it. So we get to the point that like, okay, you have murders in multiple places here and you have obvious suspects.
00:13:40
Speaker
Now the state of California They want these guys to be tried here. And the state of Arizona is saying, no, we're going to try them here.
00:13:52
Speaker
And so a dispute arises between the two jurisdictions where Arizona applies to have them extra from California because they want to try them first for the murder of Robert robert robert Robbins and Catherine Mastides.
00:14:10
Speaker
And The way that that comes about is Arizona rules of criminal procedure at the time, they required a trial to be held within 150 days of the filing of criminal charges against the defendants.
00:14:22
Speaker
So they have to extradite them and they don't want the warrants that they've issued in Arizona to be declared invalid or null.
00:14:34
Speaker
So California, they've decided that the two are first going to be tried for this like massacre And they make it clear that, like, they're going to hold on to them. And then afterwards, they can be extradited to Arizona to be tried for the murders that are committed there.
00:14:54
Speaker
So it creates, like, a a legal conundrum. But by November 28th, a grand jury is convened to hear the evidence against Doug and Bill. They deliberate for five minutes.
00:15:07
Speaker
And they decide that like this is obviously a case that each of them can be indicted for nine counts of murder and one count of kidnapping and the commission of committing a robbery.
00:15:18
Speaker
The indictments are presented to a Superior Court judge in California, and multiple defense efforts are made to try and keep this trial from happening.
00:15:33
Speaker
But ultimately, a Superior Court judge named Christopher Pappas, he agrees to a joint motion requested by the defense attorneys for a change of venue. And he rules by May 1974 that the trial is going to be held over in Santa Rosa County in California.
00:15:50
Speaker
um I mean, excuse me, in Sonoma County in California. they They're going to hold the trial in Santa Rosa, which is in Sonoma County. It's in the North Bay region. So shortly prior to the commencement of the trial, which is going to take place June 4th, 1974, Doug Gretzler listens to his attorney's advice, and he decides he's going to plead guilty to all of the charges.
00:16:16
Speaker
But Bill Stillman, Willie Stillman, he refuses to plead guilty. So in spite of this, Gretzler and Stillman are tried jointly for the massacre in June of 1974. Even though he pled guilty? Well, because of this agreement to plead guilty,
00:16:38
Speaker
it forces a stalemate on the joint trial. And at the last minute, Bill Stillman pleads no contest to all the charges in exchange for the prosecution agreeing not to pursue the final charge of kidnapping.
00:16:54
Speaker
So that closes it out basically without a trial. So you have a plea of guilty from one of the joint co-defendants, and then you have a plea of no kind no low yeah new contest or no log contendere from the other co-defendant.
00:17:13
Speaker
By July 8th, they are facing their sentencing, and Gretschler is sentenced to life imprisonment for nine counts of murder. ah Bill Stillman is sentenced to life in prison for nine counts of murder and five counts of robbery.
00:17:29
Speaker
According to the judge, like as part of his like speaking to sentencing proceedings, He describes Bill Stillman as the architect and the engineer of these murders. And he describes Doug Gretzler as a quote unquote willing follower that is acting in the commission of these crimes. And he recommended that neither of them ever be freed from prison again.
Insanity Defense and Verdict
00:17:54
Speaker
Nobody shows any emotion from the defense team as the verdict is announced. Two weeks after their are convictions for the Orchard Road murders,
00:18:05
Speaker
the governor of California, who at the time would have been Ronald Reagan, he authorizes that they be extradited to Arizona for initially the extraditum for the murders of Michael and Patricia Sandberg and Gilbert Sierra.
00:18:21
Speaker
So a gag order is issued preventing any pretrial publicity and Gretzler and Steelman are taken from California, from prison, over to Tucson, Arizona on September the 17th of 1974. They end up getting their lawyers there. Steelman has several lawyers that are listed in the court record. It looks like somebody comes on board and then is replaced.
00:18:50
Speaker
um Doug Gretzler has a lawyer throughout that's the same guy. Doug Gretzler goes on trial before Judge William Drew, but Bill Stillman, he goes on trial before Judge Richard Greer, so it's already a little different than California.
00:19:05
Speaker
There's a lot of pretrial motions that come up in here that are basically kind of technical, and they end up delaying the trial starting for a few months.
00:19:18
Speaker
Originally, Arizona had them down as joint co-defendants to be tried jointly. But Judge Druk, he ruled on February 10th that they should be tried separately.
00:19:30
Speaker
By March the 3rd, the prosecutor in these three murders, a guy named David Dingledane, he offered a stipulation that if he obtained a first-degree murder conviction for the Sandberg murders, so the couple that they killed, that he would not try either defendant for Gilbert Sierra's murderer.
00:19:51
Speaker
Both defense counsels accept this stipulation. It's really a, it's a, it's a judicial efficiency stipulation, basically saying we won't move forward in the other case.
00:20:04
Speaker
If enough is done here in terms of punishment, it's kind of a waste. And usually those stipulations say, we're not saying we'll never try them, but like,
00:20:16
Speaker
the The deal is as long as that conviction stays in place, we won't be trying on the other um on the other count of murder. Right. So they bring Bill in and they try him in St. John's, Arizona at the Apache County Courthouse. His trial starts July 10th, 1975.
00:20:38
Speaker
The opening statement that the prosecutor offers to the jury outlines the event of the days of the murder of the Sandburgers. So he says, you know, this is the evidence we're going to present, and these are the witnesses that are going to talk to you about this.
00:20:53
Speaker
His words describe the murders at this Villa Pereso complex as premeditated, brutal, and execution-style murders. He closes out his opening statements by saying that the state expects that the jury's that the jury or the jurors will return two verdicts of guilty of first-degree murder once he's all presented.
00:21:22
Speaker
So the defense opens, and they basically say, The prosecution has a duty to prove that Bill, and not Doug, fired the fatal shots before questioning, ah but that fired the fatal shots.
00:21:40
Speaker
He then questions Bill Stillman's mental capacity or condition at the time of the murders. And his excuse to the jury in his opening statement is that Bill Stillman has been doing so many drugs for so long He had no idea what was even happening when Doug Gretzler bound and killed this couple.
00:22:04
Speaker
And he tells the jury, or the jurors, that his expectation of them is that they need to find that Willie Stillman is not guilty because he was not capable of committing these crimes.
00:22:20
Speaker
So numerous witnesses are called over multiple days. One of the witnesses is Vincent Armstrong that we talked about in the previous episode. So he talks about the fact that like he was abducted and managed to escape shortly before all of this happened.
00:22:37
Speaker
Armstrong was able to identify a police photograph of his vehicle, so his Firebird that he had, as being parked outside of the Sandberg's apartment. He also identified Willie Stillman as one of the people who had a ah attacked him and attempted to abduct him. abduct him He added that billy Bill or Willie Stillman had been the more vocal and aggressive person throughout what happened to him, and that Doug Gretzler seemed to be more of a follower
00:23:10
Speaker
They also bring in Donald Scott. So Donald Scott was the one who made kind of a brief acquaintance with Doug and Bill between November 2nd and November 5th.
00:23:23
Speaker
They bring in an individual named James Nelson. So James Nelson had witnessed Michael Sandberg like as he was out washing his vehicle, and he had seen ah Willie and Doug park the Firebird close to where Michael Sandberg was.
00:23:44
Speaker
They then bring in a lot of physical evidence. So by July 11th, they've got an investigator on the stand who is able to formally identify a bloodstained cushion and a blanket.
00:23:55
Speaker
um These are from the sofa where Patricia Sandberg's body was found. He is able to show the jury how the cushion had been used to be an effective silencer or suppressor for the firearm that had been used to kill her.
00:24:15
Speaker
And then his testimony is followed by the owner of the motel where Willie Stillman and Doug Gretzler had stayed like from November 3rd into November fourth she That witness basically is able to point out that they had paid for a room with a check that was Michael Sandberg's.
00:24:39
Speaker
And also they're able to point out that ah Bill Stillman signed into the motel register. And I don't know if people know what those are, or except for movies and TV shows. But it's like a big book that sits up front where you're registering yourself for the night.
00:24:52
Speaker
Yeah, if people will don't do that anymore. Right. So he signed in as Michael Sandberg, and he had actually displayed as his identification a veteran's benefit card that was issued to a quote-unquote Captain Sandberg, and that he represented that it was him.
00:25:10
Speaker
So the motel, I think it's the owner... um The motel owner is able to formally identify Willie Stillman as the individual who had stayed in that room, in that motel, on the night in question.
00:25:27
Speaker
They bring in the FBI next, and the FBI has a fingerprint analysis testify that multiple fingerprints in the apartment, so where the Sandbergs were killed, they match Willie Stillman's fingerprints.
00:25:42
Speaker
They then bring in a firearms expert. and The firearms expert testifies that numerous bullets recovered from the heads of both of the Sandbergs have been fired by the revolver that was discovered in Willie Stillman's possession at the time of his arrest. So by July 15th, the prosecution has rested their case.
00:26:04
Speaker
The defense picks up on July 17th and they start producing witnesses. The first witness to be put on by the defense is actually Willie Stillman's former wife, Denise McHale.
00:26:16
Speaker
She spoke through 15-minute videotape interview of herself that had been created for the defense And Denise outlined Willie Stillman's sudden bouts of anger throughout their marriage, his inability to recall incidents and what she described as incidents being triggered by extreme rage.
00:26:35
Speaker
So they have a recess after this. And then Willie Stillman takes the stand in his own defense to describe in greater detail recurring headaches that his former wife had stated that he fall that he suffered following a fall outside of a department store several years earlier.
00:26:51
Speaker
And in an apparent effort to convince the jury that he was insane, Willie Stillman launched into a tirade of outlandish claims on the stand and portrayed himself as a quote-unquote fighter of the oppressed people, that he was driven to violence by seeing his brothers die in the streets trying to train change things, and that he had begun dropping acid to alleviate pain caused by injustices perpetrated by the government and the man.
00:27:20
Speaker
Willie Stillman then claimed that he had killed Michael Sandberg due to him being a Marine and being part of the quote unquote ruling class. So the defense goes on to try and support their contention that Willie Stillman is clearly insane as outlined in the McNaughton rules, which I think we've described on here.
00:27:41
Speaker
quite a bit. The defense then called two experts to testify to their belief that Willie Stillman was legally insane and unable to control his actions.
00:27:52
Speaker
ah They bring on Dr. Irvin Roy, who's a clinical psychologist, and he he goes through an IQ test that was known as Wessler or the WAIS. ah I think it's the Wessler Adult Intelligence Scale.
00:28:06
Speaker
And he talks about tests that he had performed on Willie Stillman and He concluded that though no organic brain damage had been found, the test indicated that Willie Stillman suffered from minimal brain damage with irritable and impulsive traits.
00:28:23
Speaker
Upon cross-examination, the prosecutors were able to tease out of him that he had only performed limited testing on Willie Stillman and that a subject in Stillman's predicament, or basically facing you know conviction for murder, could intentionally provide different responses to the test to potentially influence the outcome.
00:28:47
Speaker
That was then followed up by Dr. James Peel, who's a psychiatrist, who testified that he believed Willie Stillman was suffering from schizophrenia and potentially organic brain damage, and that he would be unable to differentiate between right and wrong.
00:29:02
Speaker
So by the time he's cross-examined on July 8th, he reiterated his belief to the prosecution team that Willie Stillman was probably unaware of the criminality intent and consequences of his actions when he was restraining, murdering, and robbing the Sandbergs.
00:29:18
Speaker
um And then he's let go with no further questions. ah Multiple... Rebuttal witnesses are called because of all of this.
00:29:30
Speaker
So the prosecution basically starts putting doctors on the stand by July 21st. Dr. Austin is one of the first to testify. he says that Willie Stillman is definitely suffering from antisocial personality disorder, but he's completely saying The second doctor they bring on the stand, his name is Dr. Rogerson. He outright dismisses the assertion by the other doctors that Willie Stillman's criminal behavior was a result of drug use.
00:29:58
Speaker
And then their final doctor is named Dr. Kavanaugh. He testifies that Willie Stillman, not only sane, but he's also just manipulating everyone to try and make it look like he's insane.
00:30:12
Speaker
They bring ah one more psychiatrist and a psychologist on the stand the following day. And they both testified that Willie Stillman knew what was right from wrong, and he understood that there were consequences to his actions, and that one of the ways they know he understands there's consequences to his actions is his behavior, trying to avoid the consequences of his actions.
00:30:33
Speaker
One of these experts is named Dr. Fox, and Dr. Fox basically outright says, this guy's not suffering from brain damage, not the way that we think of it. So the state finally rests, and that's the rebuttal in their case.
00:30:48
Speaker
By July 23rd, everybody's delivering their closing arguments. The prosecution's going to argue through the evidence that the state had presented straight-up first-degree murder evidence and that there's nothing in here that indicates that Billy Stillman is insane.
00:31:07
Speaker
It's just everything that's been presented is him avoiding responsibility. ah The defense is going to deliver their closing argument claiming that the there's nothing here that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that his client is guilty of these murders. And there's nothing that the state has presented that proves that he is sane at the time of these murders occurring.
00:31:28
Speaker
So obviously the prosecution asks for guilty verdicts. The defense asks for a not guilty or potentially for him to be guilty of a reduced charge, which is I assume going to be in their jury destructions instructions. the ah I've never seen this before, so I'm bringing this up here. They allow a rebuttal by the prosecution to the defense's closing. And the defense, again, outlines that Willie Stillman is capable to understand that like what he's done is murder and that he is trying to avoid the consequences. And they point out that the quote-unquote lack of evidence the defense seems to be referring to is potentially the lack of evidence that to indicate that Willie Stillman understands the difference between right and wrong.
00:32:17
Speaker
At 2.30 p.m., the jury goes back to deliberate. And at 5.15, they announce they have a verdict. So Stillman is guilty on two counts of murder. He is guilty on one count of kidnapping, which is actually related to Vince and Armstrong.
00:32:33
Speaker
He's guilty on two counts of robbery and one count of burglary. So he is sentenced to death on August 27th of 1974. and they also add in 80 to 95 years for the kidnapping of Armstrong. ah That is mixed in with the sentence for the burglary and robbery of the Sandbergs.
00:32:53
Speaker
So that's a pretty straightforward prosecution overall. um I point all of this out because we still have the unusual situation where even though Willie Stillman has been convicted, we have another trial to go through.
00:33:12
Speaker
And this trial is going to take place down in Yavapa County in Arizona in Prescott. So this is October following the August sentencing of Willie Stillman.
00:33:26
Speaker
They're in the federal building, ah courthouse there, same prosecutor, different set of ah judge, defense, and a new jury.
00:33:37
Speaker
So they start jury selection October 15, 1975.
00:33:43
Speaker
About a week later, the prosecution has started their case, and they open on October 22nd. The first witnesses to testify on behalf of the prosecution are Vincent Armstrong and Donald Scott, doing the same thing they did before.
00:33:58
Speaker
Now, keep in mind, Doug Gretzler confessed to parts of the Sandberg's murder. So the strategy that the fence goes with here is this isn't a first-degree murder conviction committed by Doug Ressler.
00:34:18
Speaker
He is focused on on getting Doug Ressler convicted of second-degree murder. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. So they try to use what Armstrong and Scott have said in the other trial to discredit whether Doug Ressler has anything to do in terms of the kidnapping.
00:34:44
Speaker
They harp on the fact that Armstrong had essentially said Willie Stillman was in charge of his abduction. And they point out that in his testimony in the Stillman trial, he had not even gotten a clear look at Doug Retzler the way that everyone was seated in the car and how everything went down.
00:35:05
Speaker
They then point to Donald Scott being a frequent drug user and an addict. to try and discredit both Scott's character and the words that are coming out of his mouth that implicate Doug Retzler.
00:35:19
Speaker
So by October 23rd, the prosecutor is starting to put Polaroids into evidence. And in these Polaroids are the Sandberg's car, which has been identified by Donald Scott as being a vehicle they had all traveled in.
00:35:38
Speaker
shortly after the murders. And they start to put into evidence um the physical items that had been taken from the Sandberg's apartment. These become important because, if you'll recall, they had all this stuff with them when they finally get arrested. And bits and pieces of this are in the possession of Doug and Bill.
00:36:03
Speaker
They bring back James Nelson. This time though, he testifies that he saw Doug Gretzler following Michael Sandberg into Michael Sandberg's apartment. One of the detectives in this case is testifying about some hearsay and it sort of derails a little bit of the prosecution's case.
00:36:24
Speaker
So
00:36:27
Speaker
the defense objects to a detective named Larry Bunting testifying about a recorded conversation that he and a colleague had had with Doug Gretzler the weekend following his arrest.
00:36:42
Speaker
This recording ends up being played against the objections of defense counsel to the jury. And they hear Doug Gretzler describe the kidnapping of Vincent Armstrong.
00:36:54
Speaker
And then after Vincent Armstrong gets away, he describes how he and Willie Stillman agreed that they need to get a a new car. So they in the in like Doug's on words, they hear them talking about a guy they see washing his Datsun, which is the car that Michael Sandberg was cleaning that day.
00:37:18
Speaker
According to Doug Gretzler's recorded account, He waited outside the Sandbergs' apartment for several hours, and Willie Stillman emerges with a suitcase and a change of clothing for him.
00:37:33
Speaker
He claims that he did not know that the Sandbergs were dead until after his arrest. Unfortunately, this makes him look bad, because they've got this recorded statement where he's walking through the police of this awful crime, but he's minimizing his involvement.
00:37:52
Speaker
A fingerprint expert gets on the stand and testifies that there's a water glass and a mayonnaise jar in the Sandberg's kitchen, and fingerprints recovered from these two items match Doug Gretzler.
00:38:07
Speaker
Fingerprints are one of those things for people that don't know. For the most part, like there are some instances where they can be unreliable. But for the most part, they are a relatively reliable identification part of forensic investigations.
00:38:27
Speaker
Right, especially with direct comparisons, right? Right. When you're able to compare somebody's fingerprints directly to fingerprints found at a crime scene, the likelihood of there being mistakes made or fingerprints being able to be planted, cetera, is it's very low.
00:38:46
Speaker
um Now, the way that Meg says that there, like direct comparison is the word that you're looking for. This was not a match made in a system like APHIS where they threw some fingerprints in there from a crime scene and popped up with Doug Retzler. If that were the case, there would need to be further investigation where they do a direct comparison of prints they know came from Doug Retzler and prints they know came from the crime scene.
00:39:12
Speaker
So this is not some kind of matching error or some kind of problem. This is direct comparison being made. By October 28th of 1974, a forensics expert is testifying about the autopsies that have been conducted on the Sandbergs' bodies. And they get into this situation where the defense attorneys have tried to basically say they were using drugs, they were drunk, different things about the Sandbergs, the prosecution's decedents here, so the victims.
00:39:44
Speaker
But that expert explained that some of the things that are come up in the autopsy are but because of the brutal killings and the nature of how the bodies have been left behind, because the bodies weren't found.
00:39:55
Speaker
So when a body starts to decompose as much as these two bodies have, this expert explains that an alcohol reading will be produced. They also have the same ballistic expert come in to testify that the bullets were recovered from the victims had been fired by the weapon that was recovered at the time of Willie Stillman's arrest.
00:40:14
Speaker
And then they connect Willie Stillman back to Doug Gretzler. So they bring in a second recorded confession. And on this recording, this is 11 days after Doug Gretzler was arrested. he ends up confessing to an investigator named Larry Hust, H-U-S-T, quote unquote, myself and Bill, had fired the rounds which killed the Sandbergs.
00:40:35
Speaker
Two days later, defense attorneys attempt to call Willie Stillman said to the stand, but Willie Stillman refuses to answer any questions. And this leads to his attorney to state to the court that his and his client has no intention of answering any questions.
00:40:53
Speaker
So Doug does not testify in his own defense. He does read a brief statement on October the 30th stating he had no intention of hiding behind the shield of an insanity defense.
00:41:04
Speaker
He portrays himself as a follower by nature and a peaceful law-abiding citizen prior to having met Willie Stillman. He claimed that whatever had happened at Sandberg's apartment was news to him because he had remained outside at the time of the murders. He closed the statement by requesting that the jury find him guilty, but of second degree murder, not first degree murder.
00:41:25
Speaker
This statement is followed testimony from Doug's mother and sister, who they describe individually a head injury that he had received in March of 1969 and how he had constantly seemed to be, quote, always spaced out and confused, end quote, due to drug usage.
00:41:47
Speaker
So they bring in a final witness on November the third This is for the defense. This is a character witness who comes in to talk about Doug. And two days later, both counsels are going to end up delivering their closing arguments before the jury.
00:41:59
Speaker
Prosecution goes first. They outline all the evidence which contradict Doug's claims to have never set foot inside Sandberg residence. and they point out that this means the jury should return to verdicts of guilty of first-degree murder.
00:42:13
Speaker
There's a recess. Defense comes in to deliver their own closing argument, and the defense attorney speaks for two hours, disputing most of the prosecution evidence and arguing that his client's limited participation in murders mastermind by Willie Stillman would only warrant verdicts of guilty of second-degree murder.
00:42:32
Speaker
So the jury goes out. They're going to spend about two hours considering a verdict. And Doug Gretzler is found guilty of two counts of first-degree murder.
00:42:43
Speaker
In addition, they find him guilty of two counts of robbery and one count of kidnapping. So the defense counsel is pretty good in this case. They pull out several legal maneuvers, and they are able to do this between the conviction and prior to the formal pre-sentencing investigation and sentencing.
00:43:05
Speaker
So Doug Gretzler ends up being sentenced to death for both murders on November 15, 1976.
Prison Life and Appeals
00:43:10
Speaker
He gets a concurrent sentence for 25 to 50 years on the charges of kidnapping, robbery, and burglary.
00:43:20
Speaker
So following these trials, they're transferred over to Florida's Florence State Prison. Both men are transferred over to Florence State Prison where they're going to go on death row.
00:43:33
Speaker
And over the next two decades, multiple appeals to overturn these sentences come about. Doug insists that his drug addiction and mental health were mitigating circumstances for his crimes. Willie Stillman, his appeals are all based on legal technicalities.
00:43:49
Speaker
And ultimately, all of their appeals are essentially dismissed. you have any thoughts on this before I get into kind of a wrap-up here? no go ahead. Okay.
00:44:01
Speaker
So...
00:44:05
Speaker
I guess I should talk a little bit about the appeals just so people have an idea. um
00:44:14
Speaker
It doesn't really matter what happens in Arizona with these two guys. The only thing that could potentially happen here is if they're put to death, then they won't serve their sentences in California. i don't know how that's that big a good deal. ah Willie Stillman, for his part, was always in trouble, even on death row.
00:44:34
Speaker
The prison records indicate that he had multiple infractions, including repeated conflicts with the guards and with other inmates. He spent quite a bit of time being placed in what used to be known as solitary confinement. In this day and age, its own it's and it's known as segregated or secure housing.
00:44:52
Speaker
He and Doug, they never get into a fight. They're apparently close by on death row. I've seen accounts where they remained on affable terms. i don't know how you feel about that. um We get some information about Willie Stillman from correspondence that he has with numerous individuals. He claims a bunch of weird things on death row. ah he He tries to deceive people in the believing that he's innocent.
00:45:20
Speaker
He talks about being a Jewish child raised by a Japanese family. he states that he had only committed his crimes due to despair, having been abandoned his whole life. He tells stories about being a Vietnam veteran.
00:45:33
Speaker
He tells stories about the Sandberg and Parkin families being murdered solely due to their involvement in narcotics trafficking. He talks about being church minister and be studying to be a church minister. He talks about having repented for his crimes.
00:45:47
Speaker
And it seems that his main goal is to sort of dupe people into sending money and gifts. By the early 1980s, Willie Stillman had developed serious health issues, including cirrhosis. He's diagnosed in 1983, apparently formally as having cirrhosis of the liver.
00:46:05
Speaker
By early 1986, according to reports, Willie Stillman is informed that he won't live another three years.
Deaths and Reflections
00:46:14
Speaker
ah being Upon being informed of his terminal illness, he stated that his impending death was the sole way he could ultimately, quote unquote, beat the state or beat the system.
00:46:25
Speaker
His health deteriorated rapidly throughout the summer, and August 7, 1986, he was found collapsed in his cell. He was rushed to the Maricopa County Hospital, and he died that afternoon.
00:46:38
Speaker
um Upon hearing of Willie Stillman's death, it is reported that the father of Patricia Sandberg, a man named Roderick Mays, stated, it annoys me that he died of natural causes before he could ever be executed.
00:46:50
Speaker
He had been condemned to death at every level. i regret I regret it's such a long drawn out process with so many chances at appeals that he died of natural causes before he could be executed.
00:47:01
Speaker
it's not It's not an uncommon perspective. ah For Doug's part, following his conviction, he stopped talking to anybody. He didn't talk to his family. ah For many years, he didn't talk to his family or the public.
00:47:14
Speaker
Initially, he was viewed as a a disciplinary problem, but it was reported later that he was a model inmate. He initially expressed... no emotion about his actions or any concern for his own predicament.
00:47:28
Speaker
This was at at least in the years immediately following his arrest. By the early nineteen eighty s he claimed that he had repented for his pasties and that he had stopped talking to Willie Stillman.
00:47:39
Speaker
um At some point he gets back in contact with his family and he makes apologies to them for the shame and the stigma that he might've brought to them. He writes letters to different victims' relatives and,
00:47:52
Speaker
and he expresses a considerable amount of remorse for his actions, and he asks for forgiveness. In 1992, he is visited by Jack Earle, who is a close-up relative of the Earle family, and according to reports, they would meet frequently over the course of several years, and Doug described to Jack Earle ah his accounts of his life and how he came to meet Willie Stillman. And he talks quite a bit about his actions with Willie Stillman in October and November of 1973. He expressed remorse to Jack Earl for what he had done, and he insisted that he felt shame and regret.
00:48:31
Speaker
And his belief at the time was apparently that his impending execution was justified. By 1998, Doug Retzler had informed both his family and his attorney that he did not want any appellate efforts or other efforts for clemency to postpone his impending execution.
00:48:51
Speaker
He spent his final days writing dozens of letters to his family, friends, his attorney, the people who worked for the attorneys, and different relatives.
00:49:03
Speaker
Neither ah he nor his attorney were present at a June 2, 1998 obligatory reprieve hearing to plead against the scheduled June 3 execution date.
00:49:13
Speaker
So basically, somebody had ordered a hearing that is pro forma, and that hearing is to determine whether or not he should be executed. And on June 3 of 1998, Doug Gretzler was executed by lethal injection at Lawrence State Prison at 3.08 His execution was the first to be conducted during daylight hours in the history of Arizona.
00:49:37
Speaker
There were 35 people present, including four relatives of his victims, one of his younger sisters, two close friends, and several individuals involved in his apprehension and his prosecution. There were nine journalists present.
00:49:53
Speaker
um He requested to be able to wear his glasses at his execution in order that he could see his loved ones and deliver his last words while he looked at their faces.
00:50:04
Speaker
Immediately prior to his execution, he asked everyone present for forgiveness. And his final words were, from the bottom of my soul, I am so deeply sorry.
00:50:15
Speaker
And I've been for years for murdering Patricia and Michael Sandberg. though I'm being executed for that crime, I apologize to all 17 victims and their families. um He then turned towards his sister, and he told her in Romanian that he loved her and his two granddaughters before you stated in English, thank you for your life's lessons learned.
00:50:42
Speaker
He then mouthed, I love you and bye to his sister and friends as the IV-2 was administered. At the time of his execution, Doug Gratzler was the longest serving death row inmate in Arizona's history.
00:50:55
Speaker
His body was later released to his family. And shortly after Gratzler's execution, one of the victim's relatives who was present to witness the event was Jack Earl. Jack Earl granted an interview with reporters in which he stated that the years prior to Doug Gratzler's execution, he had chosen to forgive him as opposed to continuing to harbor hatred and rage.
00:51:17
Speaker
He then added, I haven't forgotten what happened that November. I never will. But I hope Doug Retzler has found his peace. And I hope that people who were present walk away with something. And I always, when I find these, I always am curious about them.
00:51:31
Speaker
um He got his last meal at 7 a.m., which is weird to me. ah His last meal was six fried eggs, four slices of bacon, two slices of toast, a cup of coffee, and two cans of Coca-Cola.
00:51:48
Speaker
And all I can think is I would not want to be executed with that full of belly having to burp from two cans of Coca-Cola in 1998.
00:52:00
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because that's kind of a tribute to... um Our justice system. i don't know how i I don't know how I feel about the his attorney not showing up for the like obligatory reprieve hearing.
00:52:18
Speaker
I guess he's not going to be filing any malpractice claims, though. I think that was part of the agreement he made with his attorney, though. I understand that, but I also i also understand ah what you're supposed to do, right? i know. As far as fight it the whole way. However, he was like, I mean, once he made peace with it and said, okay, I'm not going to fight this any longer, he was basically, he had a death that a lot of people out in the world who have never committed a crime in their life would have
00:52:54
Speaker
like not feared right right because there's this unexpected part of dying that everybody faces it could happen at any time it could happen a long time from now but his was all planned out right it was almost too good for a convicted murderer yeah i mean i don't look he's a human being so there's no i agree but but But you're right. Like, I mean, if you get past the human being part of it all, like you still have these 17 murders.
00:53:28
Speaker
Correct. And this one massacre, massacre that is beyond my understanding. Correct. And he accepted his his fate in being punished for what he did,
Discussion on Culpability
00:53:40
Speaker
right?
00:53:40
Speaker
Oh, yeah. He wanted forgiveness. He said, yes, I did it and you know and But it's almost like if you don't like fight against the system and you accept your your fate, ultimately, it's almost like too good for the criminal,
00:54:02
Speaker
Yeah, and I understand that. so like But that's the way our system is. But most of the time, people don't accept it like that. Yeah.
00:54:15
Speaker
It's interesting to me. So, first of all, the amount of time that he's just sitting there on death row, I mean, ah that's a long time. um ah Ultimately...
00:54:27
Speaker
He doesn't really, i mean, he sentenced to death for one set of murders, but like you and I know that what's really happening here is like he's getting the death penalty because he went on a 17 murder killing spree.
00:54:40
Speaker
it didn't matter which one sent him there. Correct. And I, the i the only thing I'm really curious about is do you think,
00:54:56
Speaker
There's a split in the culpability of these murders between Doug and Bill? No. Or is it they're really both responsible for all of it? I do, but it doesn't change the fact that I feel like um i ah i feel like the motivations...
00:55:14
Speaker
behind why they were doing what they were doing. i do think that Stoneman was a little bit more of the leader of the pack. ah And it's also kind of demonstrated in the fact that Gretzler accepts the culpability later, right?
00:55:29
Speaker
Right. And I don't know that if he had never been with Stoneman that Gretzler would have ever been acting like that. Because it was like a drug-fueled spree are a...
00:55:43
Speaker
Does that make sense? like Oh, yeah, yeah. It makes perfect sense. They were wanting to get like money and drugs, and you know they were they had no regard for anybody that was in their way, and it was a very like clouded judgment period of time.
00:56:00
Speaker
So while i i do think they're both culpable, I still don't – I feel like Stillman led right? Right. yeah you I think Stillman would have been killing absent Gretzler, but I don't feel like there was a meeting of their minds as far as their intent. That doesn't mean that Gretzler didn't go along with it.
00:56:21
Speaker
Oh no. I think if you stay, i think that's the thing that convinces me. It's like, if you, if you stay and you know, this is all going on. Um, I don't particularly think that Doug Gretzler was necessarily afraid of Willie Stillman. I guess he could be, um,
00:56:38
Speaker
if you stay in that situation and the murders keep happening and you keep participating, ah particularly when you get to the massacre, because that's where the bulk of the murders take place. There are, you know, these other murders, but like the whole concept of like killing all of these people, baiting other people who are coming to check on those people and killing them, like that alone is enough for the death penalty to me.
00:57:07
Speaker
But this is a really good example of like, if these few people never meet, there's a whole lot of people that are still alive out there if the butterfly effect is real. And like, none one of these particular victims, because like, if we just go over the list of victims for a second, like we've got Kenneth Unren and Michael Adchain, Stephen Loughran, Robert Robbins, and then Catherine Mestides and Gilbert Sierra.
00:57:37
Speaker
if If none of, like, all those people live if these two don't meet. Correct. Michael Sandberg and Patricia Sandberg in November of 1973, they live if these two never meet.
00:57:51
Speaker
Because those all of those murders were specific to this nonsense going on in Arizona. Then we move over to California with Robert Parkin, Lisa Parkin, Walter Parkin, Joanne Parkin,
00:58:04
Speaker
Richard Earl Sr., Wanda Earl, Deborah Earl, Richard Earl Jr., and Mark Allen Lang. They never die in this horrible massacre if these two never meet.
00:58:18
Speaker
And that part fascinates me about all of this. Ultimately, when I first started reading this, so there's a story out there, if you guys want to go find it, I think it's still available on the internet where you can watch it. It's called The Greatest Murder Story Never Told. It's a documentary about all of this.
00:58:35
Speaker
you get the impression to some degree that like Doug is a bit of a follower, but I don't think it's enough to excuse either one of these people. Like if one of them's insane and the other one's a follower just going along for the ride.
00:58:52
Speaker
Once you see like how close in time all of this is, all they had to do was stop. Correct. But they were being fueled by something that wouldn't allow them to stop. Right.
00:59:03
Speaker
and And that's what makes it all the more tragic for the victims. Oh, yeah. It's a complete waste for all the victims because these guys were just like, don't get me wrong. I feel like every single person who is a serial killer or a spree killer kills kills for any reason other than just like snapping. Right. They all have a little bit of a mental issue. Right.
00:59:32
Speaker
ah All of them do. Oh, yeah. And i don't think that this is a situation, you know, i'm there's never going to be, like, serial killers that act together, like both of them are on the exact same page for the exact same motive. I don't think that's what happened here. i think they were both out doing stuff. I don't think Retzler could say no, and I think every time it was happening again, he was sort of like, oh, my goodness, now we've got to kill again.
01:00:00
Speaker
Right. Like that. That doesn't make him not culpable for it. and he, it seems to me like he got his role in this. He realized what he was doing. And he just didn't have anything else to do. He he may have been scared of Stillman. I don't know.
01:00:16
Speaker
But ultimately, neither one of them was really like, let's just go kill people. They were just both assholes, essentially. And they killed people that...
01:00:31
Speaker
kind of got in their way but the way that they got in their way was like they had the money or whatever they were after right it was kind of dumb actually and it all was just a waste it's a very very sad story and it's almost the reason that like it's you know the greatest murder story never told i think is what you said it's because it's so horrible It really is.
01:00:55
Speaker
People really can't even hardly process this. the only I do think it's interesting how he kind of made his peace with it. Gretzler made his peace with it at the end. I also completely understand why, to the victim's family, it was not fair that Stillman got to die of natural causes, right? Yeah.
01:01:17
Speaker
Because what they did was so atrocious. They were just really, really terrible people. men at that point. And I i still think that it was it was mostly i I don't even know that you could say it was drug fueled. It's more of like the addiction fuel, right?
01:01:37
Speaker
In such a bad way that they were just acting out like almost like juvenile delinquents on steroids, right? With real consequences because they were killing people. It's an it's a terrible, terrible ah spree of just just very selfish, pointless behavior.
01:02:03
Speaker
that ultimately killed a lot of people. Yeah, it did.
01:02:08
Speaker
Yeah, i don't I don't have a lot more on this. I just, you know, this is one of those stories that, like like you said, it it is the greatest... Murder story never told for a reason, and that is because of how horrific it is.
01:02:22
Speaker
Sometimes when something is this horrific, that makes me wonder, like, why do people not talk about this? And I think the answer is, like, is it horrific it's so horrific and the waste. I think the waste is like the waste of life involved in this case is absolutely bizarre to me.
01:02:41
Speaker
Oh, it's it's it's too much. ah It's not something that typically falls in any sort of entertainment, ah like true crime. It's and not entertaining at all. It's horrible.
01:02:55
Speaker
No, it is. And, you know, the one of the things about these guys is, you know, what they're displaying kind of over and over again, possibly not ah possibly fueled by something that's a little out of their control. But the inception of what makes that out of control was their choice, right? When they started doing drugs or whatever, that was in their control. But anybody could selfishly go and, like, do terrible things. It's just most of the time people choose not to. Yeah.
01:03:33
Speaker
Yeah. And it's almost like they chose to do it over and over again. And that's just, that's a reflection on them, right? And it makes all that the victims, the innocent victims that like lost their lives, is just that much more tragic.
Conclusion and Production Notes
01:03:57
Speaker
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01:04:08
Speaker
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01:04:22
Speaker
I break things like guitars.
01:04:30
Speaker
No scars We're in trouble We took it too far
01:04:41
Speaker
I don't want to go, but it's cause I'll disappoint ya. It's all I've ever dreamed of, something I cannot let go of.
01:04:52
Speaker
I hate the competition. This culture's like a Jimin. I lost the motivation to get fit in your expectations.
01:05:04
Speaker
True Crime Access is brought to you by John and Meg. It's written, produced, edited, and posted by John and Meg. You can always support True Crime Access through Patreon.com, or if you have a story you'd like them to cover, you can reach them at TrueCrimeAccess.com.
01:05:22
Speaker
Thank you for joining us.