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108th Anniversary Emily Wilding Davison Death. - Dr D. Atkinson & Dr B. Hassett - Ep 1
109 Plays3 years ago
This episode turned out to be rather the diverse discussion, inspired by the 108th Anniversary of the death of Emily Wilding Davison, suffragette, teacher and martyr in her last act of defiance. Everything from the lady herself to the wider suffragette movement, women's rights reception, our own personal heroes in the fields of history, archaeology and heritage and well... what exactly is the state of the situation now. All discussed with the help of Dr D. Atkinson & Dr B. Hassett, TrowelBlazer's in their own right!
Music
Intro/Outro Music - Creative Commons - "Fantasia Fantasia" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com). Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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Transcript
Introduction to Flipside and Guests
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Flipside. This is, as ever, the podcast that brings to you important discussions about the past prompted by specific historical events. This month I'm joined by Dr. Diane Atkinson. She is the author of numerous books relating to women's history and the suffragettes, including the 2018 Rise Up Women, The Remarkable Lives of the Suffragettes,
00:00:42
Speaker
and the 1996 The Suffragettes in Pictures, both of which are incredible books that I can thoroughly recommend. She was also a curator at the Museum of London and in 1992 prepared their Suffragette exhibition.
00:00:59
Speaker
Dr. Diane Atkinson also advised on the brilliant 2015 film Suffragette, which focuses on Maud Watts, a working class suffragette, and her place struggles interactions within the suffragette movement.
00:01:16
Speaker
I completely recommend you watch this film and there will be a brief discussion of it in this episode. I'm also joined by bioarchaeologist Dr Brenner Hassett, who is a founder of the Inspiring Trowel Blazers Initiative, which celebrates women archaeologists, paleontologists and geologists and proves that women have been doing science.
00:01:39
Speaker
Well, whatever their historical circumstances and push back. The initiative has collected hundreds of small biographies of women within these scientific disciplines and if ever you're a bit low on inspiration or need a bit of get up and go, I advise you visit the Trailblazers website and give a few of those biographies a read.
00:02:03
Speaker
We should also note that Dr. Hassett is also a critically acclaimed author. Her book, Built on Bones, 15,000 Years of Urban Life and Death, was published in 2017 and her second volume, Growing Up Human, is set for publication this year.
00:02:22
Speaker
They are both truly inspiring women that also engage a lot with public speaking and education initiatives and I cannot thank them enough for agreeing to appear on Flipside.
Emily Wilding Davison's Legacy
00:02:35
Speaker
This month's talk is inspired by the 3rd of June 1913.
00:02:40
Speaker
the 108th anniversary this year of when Emily Wilding Davison stepped out in front of King George V's horse, Anmer, at the Epsom Derby, as her final act as a protesting suffragette. She sustained significant head injuries amongst other injuries and died a few days later, becoming the suffragette's first and most widely known, perhaps the most influential, martyr.
00:03:09
Speaker
Since that fateful day, Emily Wilding Davison's name really hasn't left the public imagination. She has become almost the embodiment of what many people think of when they think of the women's rights movement.
00:03:25
Speaker
In particular, the image on the 13th of June 1913 issue of The Suffragette, which was edited by Christabel Pankhurst, shows potentially Emily as an avenging angel. The imagery on that cover of that issue is held still in consciousness today.
00:03:46
Speaker
And alongside that were the words, in honour and in loving, reverent memory of Emily Wilding Davison, she died for women. And I think an awful lot of people who don't know very much about the subject, if you stopped anybody on the street and did a box-pop with them and said, they have a suffragette, or who do you think is the most suffragette? They would not necessarily know her name, but they would say, oh, that woman who threw herself at the king's horse, that's what people always say.
00:04:15
Speaker
And of course that leads us into a really interesting discussion about who she was and why she joined the movement at one part of her life, what her contribution was and what her legacy was. Because of course the suffragette legacy has always been wrapped up with Emily Warding Davis's protest and it hasn't always been positive because for many years the suffragettes were very much persona non grata. People thought they were
00:04:42
Speaker
had an elite group who were only interested in middle-class women and middle-class women's rights. And of course, that was not true at all. But the negative press on the suffragettes and their legacy kind of started to really consolidate in the wake of her protest. Because it was her protest at the time was understood to be suicidal. People at the time completely understood or completely adamant that she had met to kill herself. And I agree with them, although that is a very contentious issue still today.
00:05:12
Speaker
Because suicide, of course, is such a sensitive subject, but it's no doubt as far as I'm concerned that Emily's personal life was building up to this big moment. She was from quite a low middle class background. Her family fortunes had kind of been on the slide for quite a number of years. She'd taken a job as a governess, which was really way overqualified to do, but she did it.
00:05:39
Speaker
But interestingly, she was the governess for a Labour MP's family. He had Francis Leland Barrett, who was a Liberal MP in Devon. She was the governess to his children. And so she's in a way on the inside of the Liberal Party in a kind of servant capacity.
00:05:59
Speaker
So I think that becoming a governess in this particular family, who were kind of liberal liberals, gave her an interesting insight as to what his political career was about. And it wasn't essentially, it wasn't interested in women's suffrage, his personal views were pro women's suffrage. But it gave her an insight as to how MPs worked and what they were susceptible to, what they were interested in, and how they often very much worked for just local interests.
00:06:27
Speaker
So she was with them for about three or four years. And then she left in 1906, and she joined the Women's Social and Political Union. So she gave them a job, and she had no financial security at all because her father died leaving them quite poor. Her mother had had to go back to the north of England, to the northeast, and open up a cake shop in the little village outside more plus where they lived.
00:06:53
Speaker
And so Emily really needed to be able to earn a living because she wasn't just supporting herself, she's supporting her mother too, her widowed mother. So there's no family money behind her. So she has to work, she has to find jobs, she has to find jobs which really she's way overqualified for. She joins the WSPU, she immediately becomes engaged with that struggle. She's a good organizer, she's a good speaker because she has been a teacher.
00:07:18
Speaker
And she escalates a militancy in a very particular way. She's very much a reactive suffragette. When things are going badly in Parliament for women's suffrage, she ups her own involvement.
Controversial Tactics and Financial Struggles
00:07:31
Speaker
And as the years go by very quickly, she then is in the position of having had several prison centres, and she's inventing in a new form of protest, which is setting fire to pillar boxes.
00:07:42
Speaker
And this tactic was very much copied by others. And it was a fantastically effective publicity stunt. I mean, it enraged people because, of course, she was blowing up the letters and postcards and, you know, the mail. So it was, I mean, it was an incendiary protest. It was kind of an incendiary way of doing the things.
00:08:02
Speaker
And it was very irks into the authorities and the public didn't like it, so the sufferers didn't make any friends over that. But it was part of an increasingly sophisticated portfolio, a repertoire of protest.
00:08:18
Speaker
And she goes to prison a number of times and she goes on hunger strike and she's force fed. She makes two suicidal protests in prison and she quickly becomes known as one of the kind of more extreme suffragettes. She's a bit of a lone operator. She's a bit of a maverick and she travels around. She's based in London. She's got a small circle of friends, but she's not part of the inner circle of the Pankhurst. She's a bit of a maverick.
00:08:47
Speaker
And she writes, she does some newspaper reviewing, she does book reviewing, some journalism to try and earn some money, but she's always kind of scraping along, trying to just keep her head above water.
00:09:02
Speaker
And one of her last protests was really difficult for her personally because she'd gone up to Aberdeen in December 1912 and she called herself Mary Brown. A lot of suffragettes had aliases and some element of disguise.
00:09:19
Speaker
and she was at a railway station in Aberdeen and she approached her man on a platform who she was convinced was Lloyd George, who was one of the several bett&wars of the suffragettes. So she went up to him and she verbally assaulted him and she physically assaulted him. She hit him around the head with a whip.
00:09:38
Speaker
calling him Lloyd George. This poor man actually wasn't Lloyd George. He just looked like him. So this rather unfortunate incident when he insisted he wasn't and she insisted he was, it meant that he was quite badly injured and he died a few days afterwards.
00:09:57
Speaker
And he actually was a Baptist minister and he was a very brave man, he's what we call a whistleblower now, because he was alerting the outside world to the genocide and the mutilations that were going on in the Congo.
00:10:17
Speaker
And also, alerting to the public, to the fact that it's issues around cocoa farming, cocoa growing, and Cadbury's and the production of chocolate, which was carried out to the farming of chocolate, carried out under quite really bad conditions. So he was prepared to be a whistleblower in the Baptist Church to alert the world to the iniquitous conditions under which chocolate was made and produced.
00:10:45
Speaker
So he was one of the good guys. And Emi Wanda Davidson generally thought it was Lloyd George. She would have been mortified, really, I think, to understand that she attacked him when she was when she was arrested and she was tried in court.
00:11:01
Speaker
She was still at the adamant that she'd been right to do it, and she did not back down at all in her protest. But when she died, amongst her personal possessions that were found in the hospital at Epsom where she kind of died four days later,
00:11:18
Speaker
in her little leather purse was this very dog-eared news cutting about the death of this man. And it was just attacked by a suffragist. She's not named, but this is obviously something that she is carrying around with her physically and mentally. And it's with her on the day she's what made her protest and it's found in her private things when she died.
00:11:46
Speaker
This is the period in her life when she can't get a job. The suffragettes won't give her a job. She's not that popular. The leaders find her quite difficult. They find her quite challenging. They find her quite demanding. So she can't get a job at headquarters. And she's finding it difficult to find work. She's generally quite short of money. And she's just wondering what's going to go next. So what happens is she
00:12:13
Speaker
She writes a lot of journalism, but none of it's published. So there's a stock of her articles. And there's a very strong theme of martyrdom and sacrifice running through all of them. And it's written really in quite an apocalyptic way. And so martyrdom and sacrifice and burning and giving everything for a cause.
00:12:40
Speaker
is the content of her last few weeks of journalism. And I think she carries these thoughts. I think she is prepared to die.
00:12:54
Speaker
She's got a rather bleak future. She's died 40, 41, she's got no job, she's got only a living. She's finding herself at odds with senior suffragette leaders and other members of the organization, not because there's any animosity between, but things aren't going her way. I think she's probably deeply depressed and angry. She goes to the Derby, she's wrapped a suffragette flag around herself, she's pinned it inside her jacket.
00:13:22
Speaker
She has a few things with her, just a small bag and she steps out in front of the king's horse. She knows which is the king's horse because she's got a book that you could buy marking the horses and the jockeys and the colours. So she knew what the horse was, what the race was, what the colours were. Importantly she knew what the king's jockey was wearing and she was able to identify them really quickly. So she's kind of
Martyrdom Debate and Beliefs
00:13:49
Speaker
She's on it. She's on this project. She steps out in front of the horse and there are other horses in the facility and nobody in their right mind would do that without thinking they're going to be seriously hurt because it's a very large animal hurtling towards you at high speed and things can only go badly if you run into it. But I think she was fully prepared to do that. And I think she went along trying to make this
00:14:16
Speaker
huge protest because the king was there the world's press was there with the highlights of the social season and emily warding davis in a way got the career she always wanted she became the suffragettes first martyr and so much of the conversation really about the suffragettes
00:14:34
Speaker
is her protest is the jumping off point in this debate. Now there's so much more to go forward with the suffragette protest until it ends with the outbreak of war, but so much came before it too. But she's this remarkable figure, this iconic protest, and she's ultimately really wrapped up in the suffragettes' afterlife, which continues to today.
00:15:00
Speaker
In terms of the theme of martyrdom, that really did seem to become an important thing for her in the months before she ended her life. But I think it really developed when she made the decision whilst incarcerated to protest further the treatment of suffragettes by going on hunger strike in the autumn of 1909 for the first time.
00:15:24
Speaker
And she would do the same thing when she was sentenced to time in Holloway in 1912. And the response to this process of hunger strike was by the authorities to force feed the suffragettes in quite a barbaric practice. And I believe that this is a practice and an experience which would haunt her throughout her life. And particularly in the autumn 1909 incident,
00:15:54
Speaker
She barricaded her door, she barricaded her cell door to prevent further force feeding by the authorities and they essentially couldn't get through that door then. So they passed a hose through the cell window and hosed her with icy cold water to subdue her.
00:16:16
Speaker
And she wrote this later of the experience, so we don't know if this is actually the thought she formed in that precise moment, but we do know that this is something she attributes. This event is something she attributes to the development of this thought. And that is that the moment for the sacrifice, which we have all agreed will probably be demanded, was at hand. And strange to say, I had no fear.
00:16:46
Speaker
Now that sacrifice she's talking about would appear to be the sacrifice of a suffragette life to the cause. And that began a process for her, I think, of thinking about making that sacrifice herself. So I do think that when she stepped out in front of the king's horse, like you Dr Atkinson, that she acknowledged the potential that in this act she could die. I don't necessarily think
00:17:16
Speaker
that she 100% knew that this would be her act of sacrifice. Of course, she could have just got some extremely severe injuries, but I think that she acknowledged in the act that she could make that ultimate sacrifice as she was willing to do so.
00:17:35
Speaker
Of course, there's that piece of evidence that people tend to point to that she had actually purchased a return ticket from Epsom for that day. I don't necessarily know whether we should put much store in that, but that was a thing that happened. Let me just say that a return ticket was cheaper than a single ticket, so a lot of people bought a return ticket.
00:18:02
Speaker
There we go then. We probably shouldn't put much store in the Epsom ticket return argument as it may have just been a practicality and probably was just a practicality because thinking about it, employment was hard to get for Emily, so she probably tried to save every penny that she could. The other thing, of course, that I think we should bring up is the fact that Emily Wilding Davidson was a devout Anglican.
00:18:30
Speaker
regularly went to church and I don't necessarily think that in her mind it was an act of committing suicide in the traditional or Victorian sense of the word because had she committed suicide she would not be able to be buried in consecrated ground.
00:18:50
Speaker
I think instead that she saw it as risking her life for her comrades. And one of her mottos, so to speak, was that rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God. So what she was doing would be a godly act in defense of her fellow woman.
00:19:10
Speaker
And of course, the coroner's verdict at the time of her death was that her death was accidental, so she didn't need to face that possibility. Well, I can certainly add that it is not necessarily true that suicides were refused burial, certainly at that period and earlier. Actually, most cases of suicide
00:19:40
Speaker
I don't know if it's most, but certainly there are incidents of people who very obviously committed suicide being included in the main body of church. For instance, St. Bride's Church very famously has known individuals, named individuals that we can identify with coffin plates that we know committed suicide, but who were included. So it may not have been the be all end all, but that's what you get for inviting a burial archaeologist.
00:20:07
Speaker
That's incredibly interesting actually, because I had heard that in some cases known suicides were recorded as something else in order to be qualified for burial in consecrated ground. But I didn't know that in some cases individuals who it was acknowledged and was recorded were suicide cases, that they were also included in consecrated burials.
00:20:38
Speaker
I think that's what it said on her death certificate. Head injury caused by protests carried out when the balance of her mind was absurd, which is just a nice way of putting it really, isn't it?
00:20:50
Speaker
Yes, that's the sort of thing I've seen recorded as well for hysterical women or disturbed women in a lot of the death records, particularly I found that when looking at major cities' death records,
00:21:08
Speaker
I think this is a good time for us to take a quick ad break, but after that we're going to be looking at the suffragette movement beyond Emily Wilding Davidson. I think we've all come to the conclusion generally that she was an intentional martyr, not necessarily as decided by the wider movement.
00:21:30
Speaker
initially, but through personal acknowledgement, that that is what was potentially needed to provoke change. But we'll be looking at, yes, the wider suffragette movement
00:21:45
Speaker
and have a particular look at inclusivity within that movement, because that is a very important issue and topic in the present circumstance. But we will see you after this short break.
00:22:06
Speaker
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Inclusivity in the Suffragette Movement
00:22:30
Speaker
Welcome back and first we're going to take a little bit of a look at inclusivity within the movement. Certainly from my understanding of things, the UK movement wasn't blatantly racist in any respect and was actually quite inclusive when compared to movements
00:22:52
Speaker
in other areas of the world, like the American movement in its early days. But for example, starting off, working class women were definitely part of the suffragette movement. And whilst this didn't mean that there was a majority working class within the leadership aspect of the suffragette movement, particularly within the WSPU, it did mean that there were individuals who were
00:23:20
Speaker
clearly working class who were quite high up in that leadership. Still, working class was more often a label associated with the membership of the WSPU. Still, there were individuals like Annie and Jesse Kenny
00:23:39
Speaker
Well Annie Kenny and her sister Jessie were very senior in the movement. I mean Annie was like the number three and her sister Jessie was like the personal assistant and nationwide organiser. So I mean quite a number of them were
00:23:54
Speaker
Certainly, well, the Kennedy sisters were preeminent, but in terms of local and national organizations working class were in were taking leadership roles. I mean, Minnie Baldock in the East End of London, she actually founded the WSPU in London, based in Canning Town, which was her district.
00:24:15
Speaker
Mary Lee is a young woman who was from Manchester. She's quite a senior character. They don't have fancy titles, but they are movers and shakers and amazing recruiters. There's Mary Gorthall, who's a school teacher in Leeds. I mean, that's just a few off the top of my head, who actually play significant roles in recruiting, organizing, and also being like poster girls, poster women, if you like, to get other working class women involved.
00:24:44
Speaker
And of course, looking at wider inclusivity and perhaps more controversial inclusivity at the time was that women of colour were actively involved in the suffragette movement and were actively recruited and encouraged. I think in particular, if you want to know more about this, you should look at Anita Anand's work on Sofia Dulip Singh.
00:25:09
Speaker
who was quite high up within the suffragette movement in the UK. And it's worth noting actually the rather famous image of the 1911 suffragette procession, where there are women of Indian identity.
00:25:25
Speaker
And I believe actually there was an empire section of that suffragette procession. And whilst the concept of empire is inherently problematic, and that's putting it lightly, there were individuals within the movement and within that section of this procession who were Australian, who were from New Zealand and who were Indian.
00:25:50
Speaker
The issue being that some scholars have pointed out that there was a thought that if British women got the vote, then they could then look after these women of other cultures and could potentially help them achieve the vote as well. And the implied thing here is that potentially white women were more able to speak for, for example, an Indian woman than an Indian woman would themselves.
00:26:20
Speaker
which is inherently imperialist and probably in keeping with some people's views at the time. Which just highlights really that the suffragette movement itself cannot be completely discussed as a homogenous thing. GCSE students learn this in the UK, that there was a divide even within the movement itself between more pacifist resistance and more militant resistance.
00:26:50
Speaker
And actually on the front of inclusivity and particular working class inclusivity, I don't think we can talk about working class women within the movement now without mentioning the fabulous film Suffragette.
00:27:08
Speaker
And that actually caused, I believe, some controversy among some groups when members of the cast, who were all white women, photographed themselves on set in shirts that said, I'd rather be a rebel than a slave, which is a quote by Emmeline Pankhurst. And I wondered in particular, seeing as you were advisor on that, Dr Atkinson, what you thought of that issue.
00:27:35
Speaker
It's a phrase that has kind of, I would say tarnished the film. It's been taken by American activists to kind of damage the film. And I think it's really unfortunate because it was, I mean, first of all, I was one of the consultants on the film, so I'll make that absolutely clear.
00:28:01
Speaker
But I cannot tell you how much effort was put in by the director and the team and us advisors to make sure that film was as accurate as possible. And I happen to think it's an excellent film, not just because I worked on it, because it's a really interesting way of telling that story from a working woman's perspective.
00:28:23
Speaker
I'd rather be a rebel than a slave as Mrs. Pankhurst's phrase, and that is such a British phrase. It was never meant to apply to the global community. I think the word slave is contentious, but the Pankhurst family or the Goulden family, which was her maiden name, had been involved in the abolition movement for three generations.
00:28:48
Speaker
the first political meeting that Emily Pankhurst, known as Emily in Golden, went to, was to an abolitionist meeting. She was taken there when she was five years old by her mother. Her mother was a very involved abolitionist campaigner. So I think it was, to be honest, I think it was over, I think it was seized by a group who wanted to rubbish the film.
00:29:17
Speaker
I think it was a, it's such a British phrase, but it was taken, greater fairness was taken to it. And I understand why by a lot of American campaigners. And I think that's unfortunate because it was never ever intended to offend anybody.
00:29:36
Speaker
Yes and quite honestly I completely agree with you on this because the film itself was really focused and did brilliantly actually address an issue of inclusivity within the suffragette movement and that was the issue that actually quite a lot of people don't realise that working-class women had an involvement in the movement
00:30:02
Speaker
And they didn't necessarily or they don't necessarily look at the value of that message being expressed and the value of acknowledgement the film provides of how women's rights really had a really incredibly tangible impact on the lives of working women.
00:30:25
Speaker
And I think as well I definitely agree with you in terms of Emily in Pankhurst was a woman who was extremely political and had involvement in a lot of movements which were to her credit and I think that this phrase by her which is so often quoted gets quite
00:30:45
Speaker
And I think that to her it wouldn't mean what it obliquely means to people who read it now. I think perhaps a better way of expressing it is that she's expressing how she wants to be proactive, how she wants to change injustice, and she wants to be proactive rather than someone who has to be forcibly passive.
00:31:12
Speaker
So I think it would be beneficial to consider actually, what do we owe the suffragettes? What have they contributed to us now, which we still feel the effects of?
00:31:26
Speaker
Well, they broke all the rules. They were active, not passive. They were breaking the boundaries of all protesters. I mean, nobody had protested like them before, male or female. Nobody had that range of protests. They were very inventive and creative. And
00:31:47
Speaker
They also are progressive too. They don't just stick with one thing. They twist and turn and adapt to very dynamic political situations. So they're very creative and they're very imaginative. They're brilliant at choreographing and stage managing their campaign.
00:32:07
Speaker
They provide a wonderful template for political protest. They're always thinking of new stunts. I mean, their direct action ideas have been much copied over the years. So I think in terms of what we owe them, in terms of as political campaigns, we owe them a lot because they've got great ideas.
Suffragettes' Impact on Future Movements
00:32:29
Speaker
But what we all need now
00:32:33
Speaker
and I think often don't have, but they had an abundance with persistence. The thing about them was they persisted. They didn't give up. And that's the thing about political protest. It can't just happen one summer. It's got to be an ongoing, dynamic, growing, snowballing activity. And it's got to reach out to so many people and make the whole
00:32:57
Speaker
membership diverse because not only just bringing in diversity for the sake of it like ticking boxes which nobody wants, you bring in a diversity of skill and prior life experience and that can only inform and enhance the movement. So we owe them that at the time they moved
00:33:15
Speaker
women's suffrage up the political agenda. A genteel, nice approach, asking for the vote was never going to work because men just said, well, no, you can't have it. You might ask, we're not going to give it to you. So shut up. But they wouldn't accept that. So they they kind of step outside all boundaries and make themselves extremely unpopular.
00:33:37
Speaker
But they made sure that women's suffrage was being discussed even negatively, even if they were being completely slaughtered in terms of reputation. They didn't care because it was still in the news. They made lots of enemies. They weren't that bothered. It's still in the news. When war broke out, the militant campaign was as fearsome as it had ever been.
00:33:58
Speaker
And the sort of that coming back to haunt the post First World War world was something that politicians couldn't contemplate. So behind the enfranchisement of women in the first instalment is the fear
00:34:13
Speaker
that the suffragettes could take the moral high ground and say, hell, we did all this for the war. We've done everything that men would do. We've done every male occupation needed of us. We fought the war on the Hanford. We're in this war too. They couldn't turn around and say, well, no, you've done all that, but you can't have the vote. So in a way, they got the politicians, they kind of ambushed them in a sense by not just suffragettes, but all women who worked in the war.
00:34:40
Speaker
they could take the moral high ground and say, well, we have earned it. And the thought of Christopher Pankers et al. starting up again with this renewed moral vigor and justification, I could just going to face it. Just of what we owe them now, I think just by their example, I mean, I wrote a lot about this in my book about how courageous they were, how
00:35:05
Speaker
hardworking, how persistent, how many sacrifices they made. And their sacrifices and their work informed successive generations of feminists and other protesters.
00:35:17
Speaker
to be inspired by them and to emulate some other ideas. So in a way, their DNA is kind of walking amongst us. And it was very much part of the feminist landscape, although not acknowledged, I'm afraid, in the literature. The suffragettes were around until the early 70s and calling feminists to a cat saying, why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? Why are you doing something else? So they were part of the conscience of feminism.
00:35:45
Speaker
And, you know, we need them today. We need them. They should be with us today. They'd have a lot to say about what's going on today, but we need that focus and we need that drive and we need that persistence because persistence will find a way.
00:36:01
Speaker
I honestly don't think there could be a better summing up of what we owe the suffragette movement because of course we owe them the practical considerations at the time. We owe them the methodologies that we still use today. We owe them for introducing the concept of women's suffrage to the main political stage.
00:36:23
Speaker
I think we owe them for language, for discussions of sisterhood being introduced to politics, and shared memory, which extended across class boundaries, across race, across everything. The association of the vote with wider political concerns and wider social reforms, which were particularly beneficial to women,
00:36:53
Speaker
I think that we owe them all of that and we owe them a heritage which verifies our current movements. So yes, I think that's a brilliant summing up and I think that that would be a good place to stop for another ad break and to end part one of our discussion. So next we'll be moving on to a discussion more centred on our own fields.
00:37:20
Speaker
of interest. We will be moving away from specifically the suffragette movement and moving on to equity within the fields of heritage, archaeology and history.
00:37:34
Speaker
You may have heard my pitch from membership. It's a great idea and really helps out. However, you can also support us by picking up a fun t-shirt, sticker, or something from a large selection of items from our tea public store. Head over to arcpodnet.com slash shop for a link. That's arcpodnet.com slash shop to pick up some fun swag and support the show.
00:37:54
Speaker
And we're back again. Now this is going to be part two of our discussion today, which as already stated, focuses more on individuals within our own fields of expertise that have been inspiring to us and who epitomize the struggle for women's rights and equality.
Inspiring Women in Archaeology
00:38:13
Speaker
So Dr. Hassett, do you want to go first on this one?
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm coming from a background of archaeology. I'm an archaeologist and have studied both in the US, as you might gather from the accent, and the UK, as you might gather from the slow tweaking of the accent.
00:38:35
Speaker
But I've had the opportunity to study with several very inspiring female professors and mentors. And through my career progression, I've had the opportunity to consider the women that I haven't learned about, which is actually the thing that led to the inspiration for trowel blazers. So trowel blazers is
00:39:01
Speaker
This project is for, we once were early career researchers, time seems to have passed on, for women who knew stories about women who had inspired them personally and thought it was just a shame that no one else knew these stories.
00:39:21
Speaker
So the woman whose story I loved hearing, just because it was so much of a type, was actually that of Kathleen Kenyon, who is Dame Kathleen Kenyon.
00:39:38
Speaker
And she was sort of introduced to me. She was the excavator of Jericho, which, of course, is both biblically and archaeologically famous. And she was introduced to me sort of their series of historical images that we have at UCL as a woman wearing double denim.
00:39:57
Speaker
directing something like 80 workmen with a sort of outstretched arm, just, you know, looking absolutely magisterial. And she did quite a lot of television work, and she has these lovely cut glass valves, she essentially made a dame. But just fascinating, I remember that my PhD supervisor telling me that when he'd first arrived in the building, that she was still there, and she used to terrify
00:40:20
Speaker
the more nervous sort of undergraduate, particularly because she was sort of constantly accompanied by her beloved dog, which wasn't terribly tame. And I just thought, you know, wow, what a figure, what an image, what a life. You know, there's a wonderful photograph of her sitting outside the former home of our archaeological institute wearing a just ridiculous fur coat and looking, you know, magisterial is very much the word I'd like to use.
00:40:49
Speaker
So I came into the appreciation of women in the field with really no systematic agenda, with no consideration of what women in archaeology meant. And actually the last eight years of running this project have highlighted for me
00:41:10
Speaker
how problematic it was, that that is how I came to an understanding of how women sort of exist in archaeology, that it was this little anecdotal story that was very amusing and funny about a dog, but didn't really touch on the actual experience of most of the women who were working in archaeology, because of course, Kathleen Kenyon was rich,
00:41:37
Speaker
Her father was the keeper of the British Museum. She certainly was no stranger to archaeology. She'd come across it before. And she ended up going on her first project, which was an all-female expedition to Great Zimbabwe under Goethe, Katyn Thompson. And she ended up being invited along because her form tutor recommended her to Katyn Thompson. And she went along as a photographer at the age of 16.
00:42:06
Speaker
and car mechanic. That was her other role. But she was, in fact, incredibly well connected. She was part of a group of women who include, you know, in various guises, people like Dorothy Garrett, who was one of the very first professors, first female professor at Cambridge in archaeology. But it's sort of as we told each other these stories, and we sort of did it on the internet and our little website,
00:42:37
Speaker
we realized that these stories don't make sense in isolation. So me saying that Kathleen Kenyon was an inspiration is actually sort of wrong, because while I liked the story, it didn't say anything to me about my career, how it is to work in the field. And as I've gone through my studies and eventually employment,
00:43:05
Speaker
The questions around being female in archaeology have expanded far beyond highlighting a few celebrities from the past. Certainly, their stories are interesting and inspiring, but what we at Trailblazers have started to actually try and focus on is, how does a woman like Kathleen Kenyon make it in archaeology and become so famous?
00:43:29
Speaker
and become so well known and achieve so much. We still remember her excavation methods and we certainly read her publications. And what does that tell us about the other women that she might have worked with that we don't know so much about? My actual favourite, UCL archaeologist, female from the Institute's past, but it's not really the Institute, but anyway, who taught Egyptology was Margaret Murray.
00:43:56
Speaker
And Margaret Murray is perhaps the best sense of humor one has ever encountered in archaeology. Her biography, written at the age of 99 from hospice, was called My First Hundred Years, which shows a certain amount of chutzpah. She was very interested in religion and magic.
00:44:17
Speaker
She desperately wanted to go and excavate in Egypt, but basically did one season with Flinders Petrie, who was a big fancy Egyptologist at the time, before being replaced as illustrator by his new wife, Hilda Petrie, who she did become friends with. It wasn't terrible, but she slogged it out, teaching hieroglyphics to literally every famous Egyptologist who ever walked the corridors of UCL.
00:44:45
Speaker
and she never got paid enough to really even make ends meet. When UCL finally thought, we might as well give you an honorary degree, her students had to club together to buy her doctoral robes because she couldn't afford it.
00:45:00
Speaker
So, and she used to do things like, um, she, she did public unwrappings of mummies, which were terribly popular entertainment in the turn of the century. So, you know, um, you could pay for your ticket and go and watch Margaret Murray, who I think was all of about five foot, um, unwrapped a mummy in public for you. That was an event. Apparently the more nervous sort did faint, but they only had two in Manchester, two fainting, so that's all right. Um, but she's, she's this amazing character, but she's, she's not connected.
00:45:30
Speaker
We do know about her because she did have a fairly institutional impact, but she's not as well connected as someone like Dame Kathleen Kenyon. And every story that we told ourselves sort of led
00:45:42
Speaker
further down a rabbit hole to a new biography and a new life story. And I think that's the thing that's really resonated with us as researchers is that there are types of stories that we hear and we tell and they tend to be well connected and they tend to be in institutions. And there are types of stories we don't. So we've been telling, for instance, the story of Dorothy Garrett, who is this famous first female professor
00:46:09
Speaker
when she was elect professor, you know, Newham College held a feast in her honor. They still got the menu and it's all sort of paleolithic themes, which I think is wonderful. And I'd like to restage that at some point.
00:46:22
Speaker
But, so Dorothy Garrett, you know, ends up being very famous and we celebrate her Women's History Month then. She's got buildings named after her and things. And she's very well known for a dig on Mount Carmel, where they located some very important Neanderthal fossils. One of them is called Taboon 1 is the specimen name. And it took us several years of kind of knowing about this famous archaeologist.
00:46:48
Speaker
to learn through the work of other dedicated researchers and archivists that actually Dorothy Garrett had very clearly written in her diaries, in her dig diaries, that Tabun I had not been discovered by Dorothy Garrett. It had been found by virtue of a tooth that was recovered inside a sieve that was being cleaned by a local Palestinian woman.
00:47:11
Speaker
named Yousra, who was probably pregnant at the time, certainly had several children already, and was working for the fancy ladies just to earn money, because it was absolutely necessary in Palestine at that time. She was uneducated. She expressed interest in
00:47:32
Speaker
going to college or university or, you know, getting an education, but of course, absolutely impossible for a woman of her class and her time and her background. I mean, the the nice end to that story is, of course, now the Smithsonian and other institutions do record that it was Yousra who found the Tabun-1 fossil. But of course, that's rather late for her. So I think, you know, for us, these these stories become about
00:48:02
Speaker
a really important way to tell ourselves about our discipline, but also to tell ourselves about what helps women succeed in the discipline in the modern day. If Yuzra had been well-connected, of course she could have gone to Dorothy Garrett's college.
00:48:20
Speaker
If she'd had a network of support and mentors, Margaret Murray would of course have been invited on lots of other digs. And these are patterns that still play out in the academy today. We still see that mentorship, role models and networks play incredibly strong roles in allowing women to succeed. And that class and background and ethnic background particularly still have impacts on
00:48:49
Speaker
the ability to sort of, you know, play in the academic environment. So, you know, I do have favourite trailblazers. I find some of their stories absolutely hilarious. Jane De La Foy, who famously sort of then had permission from the French government to cross stress.
00:49:08
Speaker
and was a sharpshooter. She'd cross-dressed and dressed like a man, followed her husband to war, become a sharpshooter, and sort of then made a lot of money telling her exploits to various magazines in France. It's something that sort of salon star. She very famously survived an ambush by armed
00:49:31
Speaker
marauders with her two pistols and I think she had about 12 shots in them. They showed up with 10 men and she said, come back when you've got two more. That's a kind of confidence you have to admire. But of course, she was in the process of looting the incredibly important archaeological site of Susa and stealing around cultural heritage. So
00:49:56
Speaker
None of these stories are unproblematic. None of them exist in a vacuum. And we find that it's increasingly important to consider these issues when we're talking about the history of our discipline or when we're talking about how we practice it today.
00:50:14
Speaker
I do think that you're completely right on this. I myself have been guilty of getting blinded by these brilliant personalities and stories. I think that is a thing that happens when you're researching these individuals is that you do essentially get blinded by personality and papers.
00:50:39
Speaker
where you find a character and you stop at that and you don't realise as well that those are the people we know and can recognise because they have so many papers associated with them. They've left behind a legacy of history and historical texts which we can look at and recognise them
00:51:04
Speaker
There are so many individuals who don't have that advantage and are unrecognized because of it within the stories of the trowel blazers that you mentioned. I must say I also would like to restage Dorothy Garrett's Paleolithic-themed feast at some point, and I hope that at some point in the future someone manages to do that because it would be absolutely amazing.
00:51:32
Speaker
And I am ashamed about how little I knew about Margaret Murray. It's a name I recognise, having studied hieroglyphics myself, and she isn't someone you can neglect in that study of hieroglyphics. And I think it's
00:51:47
Speaker
brilliant acknowledgement as well that no story that we talk about from the past is problematic. All of them have associated problems, and one of them is with Sousa. The essential – I mean, this is part of most early archaeological digs – the raiding of specific countries' cultural heritages. You could have an entire podcast episode just on that, but it's an important thing to acknowledge
00:52:15
Speaker
And I know, Dr Atkinson, you've got some personal heroes that you want to mention as well. I think it's hard to say, because women's history is such a diverse discipline, that I would probably say, I think Virago books, Virago publishing,
00:52:38
Speaker
has been a really good mentoring scheme without ever meaning to be such a thing for lots of women. I remember reading, they published, this is kind of curse autobiography called My Own Way and I remember reading it and feeling very sort of radical all of a sudden. I had this wave of radicalism just sort of
00:52:59
Speaker
came over me when I read her words. So that's probably my first use of the cargo books, but then they publish other really important women's history, texts and memoirs and autobiographies and history
Influence of Literature and Mentorship
00:53:17
Speaker
books.
00:53:17
Speaker
But also the novels too, the novels are wonderful insights into social history. They published some fantastic women writers, so they've just been full of the radar for years. And to bring them back into the canon of women's writing was so important. And without necessarily setting out to set up a mentoring scheme, I think they did. Every time you bought a Virago book, you just felt a bit more engaged with
00:53:40
Speaker
with women past present and you can look into the future. So I thought Virago was a wonderful publisher and they're still around today, of course, but I just thought their early years were absolutely significant. In terms of being personally inspired, I
00:54:01
Speaker
think very much about my PhD research and my supervisor, my Enfield supervisor, because I converted it to a PhD, was a wonderful female political scientist down at Queen Mary Westfield. And sadly, she died this year. And I felt a tremendous sort of wrench when I read her obituary in The Guardian and in The Times, because, you know, she was a magnificent woman, she was a magnificent professor,
00:54:29
Speaker
She worked in an all-male environment which was vile, you know, she was the only political scientist and she was the boss amongst all these men and I think it was it was personally quite difficult. She did leave and she gave up political science and she went into awkward
00:54:50
Speaker
kinds of other things like she was non-executive director on St. George's Hospital, so she was a magistrate. So she spread her vast intellect, but more than her intellect and her organisational powers and energy, she spread her great kindness and good works and good ideas to
00:55:13
Speaker
hospitals to the wider community. So in a way she gave her academic life and put all that into stuff that benefited the community and she was formidable and would have been quite a daunting person I think when you met her once but she was a truly kind and good person and the fact that she died last year in the Covid time when nobody could
00:55:42
Speaker
meet and celebrate this wonderfulness life was especially sad. I remember reading Open the Times and it was a tremendous intake of breath when I realised that she died because we knew she had so much more to do. I mean she always supported my work after I received another supervisor after her and that was ghastly, that was, you know, I'm afraid that was a me too moment there but we won't go there now.
00:56:08
Speaker
And then she and I became, and she supported me in all the books I ever wrote. She loved them all, she was very generous and we kind of became friends as well. She would cook supper and I would go and see her.
00:56:23
Speaker
It was just fabulous. So I was with Dr. Elizabeth Vallance, was somebody who really needs to be remembered and cherished. And even by people who didn't know her, the fact that she's not around to do all this great kindness and work is a great loss for everybody.
00:56:45
Speaker
And that's something that I've really begun to consider more as well actually. The effect that the last year will have had on some of the people we've lost from these disciplines
00:57:01
Speaker
who did so much of the early work and had such an impact and I just feel like obviously in normal times they would have had so much more of an acknowledgement and I just I wonder I wonder
00:57:17
Speaker
what impact that will have had on the fields that we study in. It really truly is a great difficulty and a great shame. In terms of my own figure who, to me, helps to epitomise the struggle within my own field.
00:57:38
Speaker
It's people like Lucy Mae Cranwell. She was born in 1907 and died in 2000, but she was a botanist, an individual that studied paleo environments and one of the first women in New Zealand who worked in paleonology. In fact, she was completely and utterly revolutionary in that respect.
00:58:02
Speaker
And she, looking at her, made me realise that a lot of these individuals who weren't necessarily rich or well-off, whose names we know now, had to be exceptional. The amount of pressure
00:58:18
Speaker
that was on them to get anywhere. It's mind-blowing. Lucy May Cranwell was exceptional. She was appointed Curator of Auckland Museum in 1929 at 21 years old, a few weeks after graduating.
00:58:35
Speaker
Part of that was just down to luck, but the other part of it was just because of how much effort and work she'd put in to get to where she was. I admire her because she challenged everything about what was thought about female scientists at the time.
00:58:56
Speaker
She did some extremely challenging fieldwork and went to some of the remotest areas of New Zealand and was completely dedicated and prolific in her search for knowledge in these areas and indeed was a champion of conservation. But some of the fieldwork stories are just completely out of this world. I mean, she was working in the 1920s and
00:59:24
Speaker
1930s and she went out and did fieldwork and mountainous regions that hadn't been done before and the stories of her sleeping out in the open in a canvas sleeping bag and waking up the next morning absolutely covered in frost. But I think the thing that always intrigues me about Lisa May Cromwell is she'd never did this alone.
00:59:48
Speaker
There are many photographs of her and another individual called Lucy Moore and they're often referred to together as the two Lucy's. Now Lucy Moore had a much harder time of it in terms of breaking the glass ceiling and there's so many stories associated with her and her struggles and in fact having to work for a great many years for
01:00:12
Speaker
an incredibly misogynistic scientist who took joy in making female assistants and colleagues cry. But one of the stories that sticks with me with Lucy Moore is that she applied dream job at Victoria University and she was rejected for that job. And the rejection letter actually stated that they had found a better man for the role.
01:00:38
Speaker
So what really highlights to me in these stories and what really hits home for me is the persistence. And that links back to what you said, Dr Atkinson, summing up the value of the suffragettes and talking about things which they had what we could do with
01:00:57
Speaker
a bit more now, and this applies in the instance of Lucy Moore and Lucy May Cranwell, and so many other trowel blazers and individuals who were incredibly important in furthering individual fields of heritage, history, and science, and archaeology, and all these other fields of knowledge. And that is that they had to have such persistence. And I think that that can lead us quite well on to section three of
01:01:27
Speaker
our discussion today.
Current Gender Equality Issues
01:01:29
Speaker
That is basically an analysis of what there is left for us to do. Where are we within this movement and where should we be focusing our attention? Because I can guarantee there is still a lot left to do. Whether that be, for example, the gender pay gap
01:01:47
Speaker
or the proportion of men versus women within academic departments or within different spheres of employment? Yes, so I was just wondering what do you think we should focus on coming next? I think equal pay is a massive problem. The suffragettes was part of their political slate. We're still not there and
01:02:11
Speaker
If they were around today, they would be hopping mad. They'd say, what on earth is going on? Why is this happening? So I think equal pay just cuts to the chase of everything that's wrong in society, when men's work is felt to be more important, worth more.
01:02:27
Speaker
in terms of status, in terms of pay and women's work and I think it's one of the fundamental human rights that women still have to achieve and I think until we get that we won't have respect, we won't have full respect from not just men in the field but society. Women have to be
01:02:47
Speaker
don't have to accept unequal pay or to be grateful for a job, these sorts of things. In fact, they are expected to be grateful for the tiniest promotion or the smallest payer eyes and expected to endure men in the department earning more than them when they're probably less experienced and less qualified. It's just a basic human rights issue. So I think we should go all out on that.
01:03:10
Speaker
I mean, if the BBC don't give equal pay, they've been as resistant as anybody. And you have a national institution, which is meant to be a force for good in the world. Well, I don't think it is. If you work into their female employees equal pay with men, I think they don't deserve these accolades and they don't deserve our trust. So that's my last word on it.
01:03:35
Speaker
I think that this is an incredibly blatant and obvious issue and just what we can do about it. Everyone can acknowledge that there is an issue. For example, the Institute of Fiscal Studies stated that graduates
01:03:54
Speaker
That's estimated gain to the exchequer for individuals attending higher education per student. For men, that would be 110,000. For women, that would be 30,000. Now, that shows a clear issue in terms of employment after graduation earnings.
01:04:13
Speaker
women are less likely to ever earn enough to pay back student debt, whereas men are likely to earn more to be able to pay back student debt. That's a real issue because the Higher Education Policy Institute, for example, last year, they reported that 56.6% of women were now participating in higher education. That's an increase. For men, that was 44.1%.
01:04:42
Speaker
But women are still less likely to have occupations within STEM, that's science and technology engineering and mathematics. So there's a real issue there, there's a disparity. Women are now participating more in higher education, but they're less likely to earn more and certainly less likely to earn enough to pay back significant proportions of student debt.
01:05:05
Speaker
don't know what your take on this is Brenna, but yeah, it definitely seems like a serious issue that we should be doing more about. Well, I think that Diane's touched on pretty much a very key issue, which is that
01:05:24
Speaker
The types of work that women do is very often not rewarded in the same way that the types of work men do, and it becomes a different work when men do it for some reason, even though the job is exactly the same.
01:05:42
Speaker
throughout the history of women in archaeology. We can see women being sidelined as just the illustrator, just the typist, the number of catalogue volumes that start with, with thanks to my wife. And you have no idea what she did, and it turns out she did all of it.
01:06:00
Speaker
But you have women sidelined into, well, she's just doing the conservation, or she's just the one who did the typology, not the big thoughts, not, you know, the stuff that we pay people for a poor old Margaret Murray, no one would understand hieroglyphics if she hadn't hacked it into them. You know, that's a pretty grueling task. And anyone who does teaching today will tell you that teaching is not the easier part of an academic career. So
01:06:28
Speaker
I think we need to look very seriously at the types of work within our own disciplines that we expect men or women to do. Things like service, things like mentorship. Women don't get some extra time back for all the time they spend protecting students from predatory colleagues or
01:06:52
Speaker
dealing with social injustice. It's a very well known concept called a minority tax, essentially, where people are asked to spend all this extra time doing women's events, doing, you know, female mentorship networks, all of this stuff, you don't get that time back necessarily. And though more progressive institutions are increasingly sort of trying to at least acknowledge that. But I think, you know, it's a very good point is that not only are we not paid,
01:07:21
Speaker
uh, the same for doing the same job is that we are forced into expected to contribute to jobs in very different ways sometimes, which needs to be stamped out. And if we look at all the ways that sort of, uh, you know, women can support other women, those are fantastic. And we're, you know, at Trailblazers, we try and really emphasize networks and mentorship, but you can't just expect that to happen.
01:07:51
Speaker
institutions, and that goes double for things like diversity and expanding participation, where you really need a lot of effort to make the composition of your discipline better. Invest more in women, I think is an excellent end point.
01:08:15
Speaker
Indeed it is and I think it's a really important point as well that women within academic departments and within different spheres of employment do have other duties that men just aren't expected to do.
01:08:32
Speaker
like organising women's events and giving really valuable mentoring opportunities to female students and younger colleagues. I think that's really not often recognised. For me, the other thing which really isn't recognised is the split. I know more about the university situation, so that's what I'll talk about specifically, but I definitely think it exists within
01:09:01
Speaker
other areas of employment. For example, the 2018 Women Count Report by Normajabo OBE, university staff, women were 55% of the total staff population. Of that, 29% of vice-chancellors were women, which really isn't very much at all, and 37% of senior leadership teams or staff were women.
01:09:27
Speaker
So women really aren't represented in the higher paid management style roles, even within university departments. And that is getting better, but it's getting better slowly. The gender pay gap of staff in universities is 15.9%, which is compared to the 9.7%, which still isn't acceptable, but is significantly less in other sectors.
01:09:54
Speaker
Now, why is academia and the university environment such a safe hold for such frankly annoying statistics? Well, that's the question that really needs to start being answered.
01:10:09
Speaker
Right guys, now it's time for tangent time.
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:10:12
Speaker
And for those of you who don't know already, this is often where I go off onto a subject which is related, but not entirely in keeping with what we've already been discussing. And so this time it's also going to be a bit of a call to action really.
01:10:28
Speaker
A little bit of a challenge for you. You see, all around the world, in every community, there's been some pretty amazing women throughout history. And, well, I don't think enough of us appreciate that. So your challenge is simple, really. Go out into your local community, go to the library, go to the park.
01:10:50
Speaker
And find somewhere some evidence of a woman from history who was pretty important to your place. Now, for some people that'll be easier than others. In London, for example, there's the blue plaque scheme and a lot of women are mentioned on those plaques. In other cities throughout the UK, there are benches in parks which have been placed there to commemorate spectacular contributions by women.
01:11:17
Speaker
If there are no physical monuments, then a lot of libraries have old newspapers, and there might be mention in them of a little-known woman that made a difference. But why do I want you to do this? I want you to do this because it might just surprise you who you might find and what you might learn. And, well, not enough people think about these women in history who made even the slightest difference to our communities.
01:11:46
Speaker
You might find out about someone that deserves commemoration and doesn't have any. And then, well, it's up to you to make that difference. But first you need to know about her. The world is full of monuments to people, to communities, but some of them just aren't marked yet.
01:12:08
Speaker
Plus, if everyone in the world just learnt about one important woman, well that would take the work of women's histories out into the public to a level that we haven't yet achieved. Public knowledge of women's histories is valuable because for centuries it's just not been there.
01:12:29
Speaker
Ultimately, it's things like that that make a difference to campaigning and to making better, stronger communities where we understand each other more. At the end of it, you as an individual might be inspired.
01:12:44
Speaker
And if you are, then you could really make a difference. Because it's people in the public, the public themselves, that propose individuals for schemes like the blue-black scheme in London. There's been a whole heap of interest in statues recently. And whilst I'm not going to get really deep into that debate here, because this is just a tangent time,
01:13:08
Speaker
It should be noted that we have the power to decide who we commemorate now, but we don't really do that anymore. Not very well, at least. Because a lot of us haven't taken the time to look around our local communities, learn about its history, and find those individuals worth commemorating. So that's the end of our tangent time, but don't forget your homework.
01:13:33
Speaker
It's easy really. And you can always let the flipside team know who you've found.
01:13:41
Speaker
So all that's left to do is say thanks for listening. We'll be back every month on APN so you can find us there or on every other major streaming platform, you know, like Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, etc. Thanks also to Dr Brenner Hassett and Dr Diane Atkinson for taking part in this first episode. And with that, goodbye and I'll see you on the flip side guys.
01:14:28
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV Traveling America, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, and the Archaeology Podcast Network. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.
01:14:50
Speaker
Thanks again for listening to this episode and for supporting the Archaeology Podcast Network. If you want these shows to keep going, consider becoming a member for just $7.99 US dollars a month. That's cheaper than a venti quad eggnog latte. Go to archpodnet.com slash members for more info.