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EP40: Bill Reed - Beyond Sustainability: The Regenerative Shift
97 Plays5 days ago
“We do not try to solve problems. Nature always works with potential.”
Regeneration begins when we stop trying to fix isolated problems and instead learn to work with whole systems. Rather than focusing on outputs, metrics, or checklists, this approach asks a deeper question: what is the role of this project within the larger system of life? True regenerative work moves beyond sustainability by shifting attention from reducing harm to activating potential—aligning human activity with the inherent intelligence of nature. It requires embracing complexity, working with paradox, and recognizing that transformation happens through relationships, not control.
Bill Reed explains how regenerative design integrates ecological, social, and economic systems into a unified whole. He shares how frameworks like the “law of three” help resolve conflict by moving beyond compromise into harmonization. Reed emphasizes that meaningful change comes not from convincing others, but from cultivating curiosity, aligning purpose, and building a shared field of care.
Bill is a regenerative practitioner, architect, and systems thinker who helps define how modern design engages with living systems. As a principal at Regenesis, he's spent decades advancing Regenerative Development, an approach that integrates ecological, social, and human systems into a unified, living process. His work focuses on elevating the role of design beyond efficiency and sustainability, toward creating conditions that enhance the vitality and potential of entire communities and ecosystems.
A co-founder of the LEED Green Building Rating System and founding board member of the U.S. Green Building Council, Bill has been at the forefront of the green building movement since its inception. He is also co-author of The Integrative Design Guide to Green Building, a foundational text that reshaped how practitioners approach sustainability through whole-systems thinking.
Bill has consulted on hundreds of projects worldwide, from individual buildings to large-scale urban master plans, and is a sought-after keynote speaker and lecturer, with engagements at institutions including Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and the University of Pennsylvania.
Learn more & connect:
Regenesis Institute: https://www.regenerat.es/
Explore these valuable resources to further your journey in regenerative design:
Discover more about Regenerative design at Paulownia Landscape Architects. https://www.paulownia-la.com/.
Dive into the Twelve Laws of Nature and unlock the secrets of harmonizing with our planet at https://www.12lawsofnature.com/.
Fulfill your garden aspirations with expert guidance from the Garden of Your Dreams masterclass at https://www.gardenofyourdreams.com/.
Ready to take actionable steps towards your dream garden? Book a complimentary 30-minute training session with Matthieu for immediate results: https://calendly.com/garden-of-your-dreams.
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Transcript
Introduction to Regenerative Design Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
When I tell our developer clients and architects who we're working with, your project is not a v project. The project is life. Your project will emerge from that understanding.
00:00:14
Speaker
So we can ask our clients to throw away all their designs. Maybe they're good, we don't know, but more than likely we need to discover first principles, how this place works, and then how this development can actually support how this place works. Your project is secondary if you care about regeneration and sustainability.
00:00:33
Speaker
That's an act of faith. Hello and welcome to the Regenerative Design podcast. I'm your host, Mathieu Mehuys, and in this show, I interview the leading authorities in the world of regenerative practices, people who do good and do well.
00:00:48
Speaker
Are you a person that cares about your environment and our planet, that wants to leave the planet to our children to be something that we can be truly proud of, to enjoy for many generations to come? But are you also a person that believes we can do all of this and do good in business? I have really good news for you.
00:01:07
Speaker
You're here listening to the podcast that is all about making our planet a better place and making your business more successful. Enjoy the show.
Bill Reid's Journey into Regenerative Development
00:01:17
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another episode of Regenerative Design Podcast with your host Mathieu. And today we have a very special guest. We have the amazing Bill Reid on our podcast. Bill Reid is the co-founder of Regenesis. You could call him one of the founding fathers of regeneration. It's a great honor to have you here, Bill. How are you doing today?
00:01:39
Speaker
I'm doing well. Thanks, Mathieu. Yeah, i'd I'd love to dig right in and understand, like with all the experiences that you have, what's your backstory? How did you decide to go into this regenerative development world?
00:01:54
Speaker
Wow. Okay. By the way, um I just want to clare make it clear that I'm not a founder of Regenesis. I'm an early adopter. Oh, your earlier doctors. Sorry about that. So, uh, Regenesis heard me speak on integrative systems thinking when they, the year that they were founded and said, you're kind of thinking the way we're thinking, you might like what we're doing. And so I, uh, said, indeed I did.
00:02:18
Speaker
So I studied with Pamela Mang and then Carol Sanford for a number of years, well, while beginning to practice while incorporating this, this work into my practice. So I'm an architect the clatter and and, um,
00:02:33
Speaker
I could say that it started, I'll give you the quick story because ah it shows you how geeky I was as a kid. But I was turned on to Lewis Mumford when I was about 14 years old, 13, 14 years old. Lewis Mumford is a oh worth worth reading, a social and architectural critic and commentary commentary commentarian. In the died and he died probably years ago um But he wrote the book City and History, The Culture of Cities. his
00:03:07
Speaker
ah But what it really inspired me was how he predicted how the automobile would destroy our cities. And I'm interested in quality of life. I've always wanted to be an architect.
00:03:20
Speaker
So I was given a half year of independent study to write a thesis when I was a junior in high school. And the subject of that was the sociological implications of urban and regional planning, which is definitely a very geeky subject for a teenager. but it So I was going to be a planner.
00:03:41
Speaker
And in planning school, it made no sense to me. moving automobiles around, geopolitical issues. So I really had no, and no one could give me, i didn't know enough to ask the right questions, but it wasn't until the sustainability movement came along that I realized that's what planning is for.
00:04:00
Speaker
And, but in the meantime, I pursued environmental
Evolution of Sustainable Practices
00:04:04
Speaker
concerns. So I've been doing this work since the nineteen mid 1970s, passive solar energy, then solar,
00:04:11
Speaker
U.S. s Green Building Council came along and said, well, that's more whole than just working on energy, whole building. And then wrote a book with Seven Group on on integrative systems thinking, because how do you you, just shouldn't be checking points. You need to be working to get, this is a whole unified system.
00:04:29
Speaker
And so, um, And while we were writing that book and thinking about the subject, actually, the question occurred to me, where does one stop integrating?
00:04:39
Speaker
two And that's a metaphysical question. And that basically leads to where we're practicing today. So how do we embrace the whole system? And the whole system means everything that you can imagine and everything you can't imagine while the energies of of the universe are what we're working with. So so It's been a journey of integration, really, and what integrative systems thinking. That's what I was speaking on in Austin, Texas in 95, 1995, when we're Genesis, currently speak.
00:05:11
Speaker
um And again, where do we stop integrating? And that's the question we're we're really working with. Yeah, that's amazing. like um I would love to understand more about your approach and why this, like what what made you click in terms of like, okay, I'm a planner. We look at projects in a kind of, this is the project boundary.
00:05:33
Speaker
And then you soon enough realized like, oh, but whatever I'm doing here has an impact on the surrounding and vice versa. Why are we stuck to that? So when did that happen? And what was like the first project where you could actually expand, let's say, beyond the limits of the property boundary?
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, wow. I have to dredge my memory banks for that. But the the realization really really happened with the permaculture movement. Uh-huh. and being aware that we could work with whole systems in terms of life and and actually help life recover, not just limit the damage.
00:06:11
Speaker
Because the green building movement is pretty much about slowing down the damage. know, as Bill McDonough says, sustainability is a slower way to die. middle the head And so that became pretty apparent when you realized, oh, we can actually work on the health of the system. Regenesis was formed by Pamela Megan Ben Hager, Joel Glasberg, and Tim Murphy. Because they, because Pahelo was working with the whole social system and organizations.
00:06:38
Speaker
So organizational development, organizational psychology, how do we actually get people in relationship so they're more effective? oh That was how RegenerativeSys was founded more on like the social structure of companies? That's 50% of it. The other 50% was the permaculture movement because Ben and Joel and Tim represented their early practitioners in in the permaculture world, they have the drylands institute, which lasted for a number of years.
00:07:09
Speaker
And Pamela thought, wait a minute, that's still not whole enough. There's the social system. There's the land system. That's crazy. This is a whole system. So how do we work with that? And that's that's the technology, the technology in quotation marks that Regenesis developed previous to my engagement. and Well, before Regenesis, Charlie Crone, Carol Zanford, Um, oh my goodness. I'm forgetting some of the other founders of this work. Their practice of regeneration goes back to Procter and Gamble in the late 1950s.
00:07:43
Speaker
So that's how that's really the start. We talk about John Tim and Lyell speaking about it. And yes, from a landscape perspective, John Tim and Lyell definitely is the first guy that raised it as well as Rodale, Rodale Institute.
00:07:57
Speaker
oh yeah as a concept of wholeness and working with the essence relationship of essence to essence that came out through Charlie Crone in the 1950s and 1960s so and ah and that lineage is based on the number of um George Gurdjieff, John Bennett, Sri Aurobindo and the Mother, the esoteric, the religion, the esoteric aspects of the major religions, Sufi, Kabbalah, Gnostic Christians, all of those groups were actually working with the Greeks, working on understanding life on its own terms.
00:08:35
Speaker
how does How does life work as a unified system? And how do we, the esoteric religions, actually worked on not so not being saved, not returning to God, but the esoteric religions are how do we become God? How do we become as God would want us to be?
00:08:53
Speaker
That's what the esoteric religions really. And then we shifted into patriarchal world and that kind of everything went to hell after that. um What do you mean? what what How do you want to? Oh, thinking of the patriarchal, so the the religions that we have today, the major religions,
00:09:08
Speaker
christianity and judaism and uh muslim are are patriarchal religions so there's a domination there's a yeah man and control aspect to it you do this you'll be saved yeah and so we lost the individual uh relationship religion kind of an agency yeah yeah that's it's like you gotta pass through us to get to god that's right Yeah, interesting.
The Brattleboro Food Co-op Project
00:09:32
Speaker
so So these are all the influences that that built Regenesis and built your own life because you you you met with the team of Regenesis and you started to to work together. so I want to maybe rephrase my question in the sense of like, maybe not the first project that you did, but let's say the first project where you where you felt like, oh, we're actually getting traction. We're onto something that
00:09:57
Speaker
gets great results and and it's something that nobody's really doing. what When was that moment where you could see the first results? I use it i use it all the time in my talks because it's actually so illustrative.
00:10:10
Speaker
And it was a failure in in one respect, but it's the Brattleboro Food Co-op. in Brattleboro, Vermont. And that's in 2000, I think, where actually there were other projects before that, but this was the first one where I really was on the carpet.
00:10:27
Speaker
I had to actually work the system appropriately. And I didn't actually, but great lessons learned out of that. But that was a small grocery store, a food cooperative in this relatively small town in Vermont. And they wanted to be a LEED gold building. And I asked to the question, do you want LEED or do you want sustainability?
00:10:52
Speaker
Because they're not the same thing. And... ah So, and you know what, you know what LEED is, right? Yeah. So there the building certification. Yeah. We worked with a few architects that it's interesting. They're like so focused on that. And so they ask us, can you put some birdhouses in the, in the landscaping check? Can you do some, this check?
00:11:12
Speaker
It's yeah, it's good, but it's very fragmented or very, yeah. Exactly. That's the problem. It's fragmented. But it is good. Good reminder. There's nothing wrong with it except that it keeps your mind fragmented.
00:11:25
Speaker
um So ah anyway, so they asked the question, i asked them the question, do you want to lead or do you want sustainability? And they gave a great answer. They said, I want both. We want both. Good answer, actually.
00:11:38
Speaker
So that's when we so we started looking at not the grocery store, but the system the grocery store is nested within. Because unless we're not you know the context is everything. And so this work is really about how do we add value to the system of life?
00:11:54
Speaker
And how does that system of life add value to our project is one way to think about it. So there's a reciprocity, a mutual benefit. So the question was, and of course that allows you to ask fundamental questions, what's the purpose of this project? Well, the purpose of this project is to house a grocery store.
00:12:11
Speaker
So is this grocery store, is its business sustainable itself? Because if the business isn't sustainable, then the building's not sustainable. see So we asked the question, what happens if there's a trucker's strike?
00:12:26
Speaker
Well, we're out of business in three days. What happens if a grocery store chain comes to town? Well, we're probably out of business in a year or two. So what's the one thing that an out-of-town grocery store chain or a trucker's strike can't compete with? And that's local food.
00:12:42
Speaker
you mean So this became an exercise in self-sufficiency and and developing the food system, which meant that we had to study the that Where are the farms? Well, it turns out most of the farms are now gone, out of business. The soil is depleted and the nutrients are depleted. The best soil was in downtown Brattleboro.
00:13:03
Speaker
fifty So let's use that. well we built. Well, no, you haven't built. You've only built up 35%. Where did most towns feed themselves in World War II? Backyard gardens, victory gardens. Victory gardens, yeah.
00:13:15
Speaker
so The grocery store was programmed then to be an agricultural and soil extension service to teach people how to grow their own food and test their soil. cannery to can their food, a daycare center to take care of the kids when the adults were doing that. Or forest restoration, in the U.S. Forest Service restoration group to work on the restoration of the of the watershed.
00:13:40
Speaker
in each part a credit union to loan money to small farmers to come back again. um an abattoir for hunters to to dress their meat. um I think that and by the way, a grocery store.
00:13:53
Speaker
so So that the system became paramount, which is the point. And and then what happened is we they were so excited. The executive board was so excited about hearing this. They said they had an emergency meeting with the board and it was a terrible we weren't prepared.
00:14:11
Speaker
and It was a terrible meeting and one of the board members said, what the what is this bullshit? We just wanted to grow people. So that lesson was a valuable one. We learned that we the the people are an integral part of the system and we actually need to be working with the people in a developmental way, developing their and understanding in capability. And this is where the story of place came from. The idea of helping people see a North Star that unifies everybody, all these different interest groups. so
00:14:42
Speaker
make should finish that story we wrote um we wrote a big report because we realized we've got we've got to cover our we need to give the vermonters something you know just not so we wrote a long report explaining all this and handed it in and they about a year to the day which is about what it takes for people to assimilate this paradigm shift. I got a call from the president saying, Bill, we want to apologize to you. This is the greatest thing that's ever happened to us.
00:15:10
Speaker
a And so he said he said, we realized that the building was not the point, that the system is the point. And so what what was wonderful about that, so they have they developed 100 year ends policy to begin to incorporate those ideas.
00:15:29
Speaker
And the other thing that's interesting, and this is this is why regeneration is such a powerful paradigm, is that when you build a field like that, a field of energy, of coherence, in any place, doesn't matter where, people sense that.
00:15:44
Speaker
And other cooperatives in the New England region called them up and said, how do we do what you're doing? This is so cool. And so it's like this little pebble dropped in a pond and ripples out. And so that's why it was both a very successful project and a disaster.
Law of Three and Systems Harmony
00:16:01
Speaker
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00:16:17
Speaker
Then the Garden of Your Dreams Masterclass is for you. I'd love to understand like from that early experience and how you're currently operating, like what i see that, to my opinion, kind of the danger of the regenerative movement is that just like sustainability or the green wave or that or even permaculture that the let's say the the bigger public thinks like oh that's something in the fringes or that's like the green hippies or that's someone they're kind of out there and they're doing some work but most people think that oh I i don't care about that and and ah they also have their right because they they come from different interest groups so if you're going to an investor and you explain like oh you should do a green building because it's good for the birds and the ecology and it's better for this and that, he's going to be like, oh, I don't need none of that. I just want to hear what's the return of my investment investment. So my question is, how did you start to work with all these different interest groups and pretty much you have to align sometimes contradictory interests and how do you bring those groups together? And so now we're talking about relationships. How do you build those relationships to make those holes actually successful?
00:17:31
Speaker
Yeah, well, so there's a lot to but lot to unpack on that question. So number one, we we use systemic frameworks to guide our thinking. is shorthand for holding complexity.
00:17:46
Speaker
the greeks used the The Greeks used the geometric figures. Bucky Fuller used her geometries to describe holes. Bennett and Garchief used prime numbers.
00:17:57
Speaker
But the the math is something incredibly elegant and powerful about the energies that math conveys and geometries convey. And the most one of the most basic frameworks is the law of three.
00:18:11
Speaker
And ah most of our work comes from people hearing about the law of three. So the law of three, you want me to just do a quick download? Yeah, please. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. oh All life, anything we do can be seen as an activating force.
00:18:26
Speaker
You want to build a building or want to develop some infrastructure or you want to get married. I don't know, anything. there's Then there's a restraining force, a restraining or a receiving force.
00:18:38
Speaker
So there's gravity, there's in there's budgets, there's laws. Yeah. Or there's resistance from your partner that may, she or he may not want to get married, right? So activating and restraining or receiving force.
00:18:54
Speaker
Our world lives in this framework, the duality framework. The physical universe is duality. Yeah, well, mental too. So that we think is that there's only one way to go. Either you're right or I'm right. Or we compromise.
00:19:08
Speaker
and So compromise or conceding means I'll give up a little, you give up a little. You think about politics. We'll give up some of our aspirations as long as you give up some of your aspirations and the kind of, uh, each had acknowledged our ego has been, um,
00:19:24
Speaker
beaten up a little and we're proud of that and we call it a day. so However, compromise is death. Now I'm being overly generic here, but if we compromise, then we compromise the next time we meet and then we compromise again and then we compromise again, we drive ourselves into the ground. Atrophy.
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah. And so nature doesn't work that way. Nature self-organizes for greater diversity and resilience. And it does that by harmonizing systems. So basically nature has a third force.
00:19:57
Speaker
The third force is harmonization. not got compromised. It doesn't doesn't negotiate, it doesn't debate. And the qualifier here is you have to accept death as part of If you don't do that, then none of this works.
00:20:11
Speaker
Because death is is universal. and it's you Western culture is very funny about death. yeah but so so but Yeah, even in economics, companies come and go, it's normal.
00:20:22
Speaker
Sure. And we, and we you know life is birth, life, death, rebirth, birth, life, rebirth. That's why the gyre is such an important symbol of life. We do it every day. Oh, why did I do that? Made my wife so mad. You know, I need to stop being so obnoxious or so arrogant.
00:20:39
Speaker
ever Right. I'll do better. So there's a bit of a death and you rebirth yourself and hopefully you're learning and and developing, evolving. That's what life... this By the way, all of this is about staying in the game of evolution. this is it that's yeah So what does it think what does it take to evolve? And why do... Why do what why must we evolve?
00:21:03
Speaker
If we don't ab evolve, what are we? That's a question. Well, we're dying. That's a metaphysic. Huh? We're dying if you don't evolve. If you don't grow, there's either growth or decay. That's the truth. Yeah, I think so. So...
00:21:17
Speaker
where was i where Where was I headed? I was headed somewhere. Yeah, sorry I interrupted you, but you're saying that nature doesn't work that way. It has the three forces. yeah yeah well thirty So when people see this, and then many, many people have seen this, I give a lot of talks.
00:21:33
Speaker
And I always talk about this. I say, if you're going to take anything away from the talk that I'm giving, this is the one to take away. Because if our political, if our politicians actually respected that, the idea that there's a third force, we would be in much different shape. But we think we have to win or lose. The lawyers are involved or compromise. And so we end up with a dis... The world is dysfunctional because of that duality.
00:21:58
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So the nature of duality. now Why did we become so disconnected from that? Oh, well, you know, everybody talks about from Aristotle or Descartes or the the mechanical view of the universe, entropy.
00:22:11
Speaker
We fix the age of reductionism means that we actually pull ourselves away from the whole. and focus on or small aspects. Those small aspects, unfortunately, when you work only on an aspect of life, you'll end up with, you'll guaranteed to end up with unintended consequences.
00:22:30
Speaker
So this work is primarily about how we work with holes. And it's a fundamentally different way of being. This is not about adding pieces together drawing pie charts, right? We all have pie charts with all the different aspects. That's just a list of fragments in a circle.
00:22:49
Speaker
It's not a whole. whole holds energies. And just to underline, maybe we can get back to this. we We hold holes by looking at the essence of the entity.
00:23:04
Speaker
the essence, that they inherit the inherent, the intrinsic nature, the uniqueness, the essence. the The premise is, and they're not the only ones saying this, philosophers are saying this, religions are saying this, that every living and even non-living entity has a unique essence that makes it who it is.
00:23:23
Speaker
And the simple perspective about regeneration is that if we honored that essence in everyone and everything, we would live in an entirely different world.
00:23:34
Speaker
But we generally try to impose my nature on you. So this is not, I'm not honoring you if I'm insisting you think like I do. i should I should be in, I would want to be in dialogue when you don't understand how you're thinking. And then we co co-evolve, right?
00:23:51
Speaker
And the same thing goes with nature, with life. It has, every place has a unique nature. ah Antwerp is different than Strasbourg, right? Why? Why?
00:24:02
Speaker
if you don't know that then what gives you the right to work there that's like me just telling matthew you're gonna you're gonna love what i'm doing here matthew because i'm really smart and you're not and you know i'm gonna you'll you'll appreciate it you'll eventually appreciate it well no that's not that's not the way so how do how do we actually collaboratively learn together can and our job in nature is to actually learn from nature So let me get back to the law of three for a second. So the law of three, when people hear this, they say, and I had, this is one quote from a developer. We don't believe you.
00:24:37
Speaker
We don't know how you do this, but if you can, you're you're worth 15 years worth of lawyers. So we'll give you two months. Are you willing to work for two? We'll give you two months of consulting time and we'll give it a shot because we're, we're our back is against the wall. We have 25 activist groups who all call us the enemy.
00:24:58
Speaker
And if you can harmonize that, that's worth a tremendous amount of money. So we did it. And in three weeks, we were we actually got all those activist groups over the over the hill.
00:25:11
Speaker
Amazing. Over the hump. um because people people want to be well that's a longer story but people want to be in relationship even we're social animals we just have we just have um the process of becoming the process of development uh the process of understanding that we're all connected ah we've especially in the united states we're a bunch of cowboys as the world is witnessing and um We're all, we ah we feel that, you know, don't tread on me. it's all it's about It's all about me. And of course, the United States was founded, we can get into politics, the United States was founded on being a commonwealth.
00:25:53
Speaker
How do we have things in common? But we've forgotten that. me So and the world's forgotten it. We're not the only ones. So no no I think it's very interesting to understand that when you're able to hold different.
00:26:07
Speaker
and This reminds me of something I learned from one of my mentors is like when you can hold different viewpoints at the same time that are also contradictory. you're actually what you told about the esoteric work you you're getting closer to becoming god because god has infinite viewpoints god will always forgive you and will always whatever you do it it will yeah if you think about that so the closer you you can get the the more if if you can understand like me i want to build green spaces and do regeneration And so if I would be like, a if that would be my only silo of thoughts, I go to a investors or developers saying like, hey, you have to do more green stuff.
00:26:48
Speaker
And they say, well, it's not going to make me more money. Then I say, oh, they're the bad guys, the developers. And that's that exact what you explained. Whereas if I'm and that's actually the current process that I'm in, I'm meeting a lot of developers and in real estate investors, landowners.
00:27:07
Speaker
And I try to understand their angle and see how how can I match that with my perspective. And it's becoming very interesting that they also see, oh, if I improve the green space of my buildings, I might actually have a high return on investment. And now we're talking. And and I think that's that process, what you explained happening.
00:27:27
Speaker
ah So it's very interesting. Yeah, I just want to underline what you said about... when you're working with conflict or you you're working with paradox, paradox is an indicator you're working with life on its own terms.
00:27:39
Speaker
That's a good one. People are afraid of paradox. Yeah, they are. That's the either or logic yeah in our culture. This is the dualism. yeah I'm right or you're right. yeah Let's not have lawyers. They basically want to win.
00:27:52
Speaker
They don't want They don't want to, aren't I? So, okay. Anyway, that's No, I think it's great. And I want to go more to like, so the logical consequence, when you start to understand like, oh, you can actually have contradictory opinions, and we can both be right.
00:28:11
Speaker
So now let's start to work. And then the question is okay, how do you harmonize? How do you actually get, let's say someone who wants to make money as an investor with someone who wants to build green spaces for better nature or whatever the the purpose is How do you marry those two and how does that look in your work?
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Okay. So what let me say one thing. what people How do you convince these developers who just want to make return on investment? And my perspective is I don't try any anymore.
00:28:42
Speaker
i like I tried to convince people for years ah to to tell them what is right and wrong. Well, that's not very well received. They really have to experience that on the in themselves.
00:28:55
Speaker
So, however, there are enough people, if you are actually in integrity with your beliefs and not apologizing for them. This is who you are. It's what you believe.
00:29:07
Speaker
You'll find people that are ready. There's a lot of people that are ready for this. Yeah. So but but don't try to think that you need to convince people because don't waste your time.
00:29:18
Speaker
Move on. no That's one bit of advice. um Let's see, where was I going to go with that now? row Prop me again, Matthew. because Yeah, so we were talking about the relationships. And so if you come in those situations where I might have a perspective, let's say again, i want to regenerate an area, a planet, a certain project.
00:29:42
Speaker
That's like my, that excites me the most, even personally. That's why I do this work. But then I'm, I'm going to be in contact with developers, landowners who their biggest interest is to make more money, for example.
00:29:57
Speaker
So how do I And as obviously as quick as possible, find out or, and then I don't want to use convince because I'm not going to convince them, but make them understand that this is the right approach.
00:30:10
Speaker
How do you actually do that? Yeah. Well, good. And we do have lots of different ways of different techniques, if you will, to... The first is people don't learn. Here's ah here's a premise, a principle. People will not learn until they have a question.
00:30:27
Speaker
That's a universal truth.
Potential Over Problems in Regenerative Projects
00:30:28
Speaker
Unless you have a question and's internally, it doesn't have to be externalized, but they have to have some little niggle of curiosity. And you want to find out what that curiosity is and speak to that.
00:30:41
Speaker
Not tell them the way they need to be, but find out what what makes them, why are they even talking to you in the first place? You also want to another way to do get at this is to ask them the nature of their purpose, their role. What's their role?
00:30:55
Speaker
What's their purpose? What's the difference between what is the nature of your purpose versus what is your purpose? Is that the same thing? Yeah, that's, yeah, that's the same thing. um You can have a role, I mean, to be really pedantic, you have a role.
00:31:09
Speaker
And your project has a purpose, yeah but that's, let's not worry about moon of that. That's fine. So the nature of the purpose. Yeah. And, and so, and we ask people to think about the value that they are adding to that larger system that they're nested within.
00:31:27
Speaker
is that you know how How do you want to affect this larger system? Do you want to affect this larger system? Sometimes that's the first time they've ever thought about that, but it's even possible. Or what how who what what do you want to transform through this work?
00:31:41
Speaker
not not not an objective not an object we have plenty of objects what wants to be transformed if they can't go there if that question is too obtuse or esoteric for them you probably don't want to spend the entire time but if you you find a question that actually peaks their curiosity that's where you're that's where you're starting to build energy and relationship that allows you to explore further So this is always about helping them understand themselves rather than you helping them understand you.
00:32:14
Speaker
That makes sense. Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense because now we're back to like, let's say nature as a big whole works in a specific way. And so a lot of people are going through life and they are working against that idea.
00:32:30
Speaker
So if you can guide them to get more to how nature works and not just how plants work, but let's say the whole universe works, now you're going to bring them into alignment with the work you want to do or whatever your purpose is.
00:32:45
Speaker
Well, the first step is for them to be curious within themselves. Who do I want to be? What do I want to see as an outcome? What do I believe for my children or my grandchildren? Right. Getting them getting them associated out beyond their immediate needs and perceptions.
00:33:02
Speaker
and And then we use lots of these frameworks that I described earlier. We'll use so Carol Sanford as a really fun one. called the four modern paradigms, extract value, arrest disorder, or slow down the damage.
00:33:16
Speaker
So extract value, that's pretty much the way our culture works now. We extract more from the earth and nutrients from the soil and spirit from employees. So that's extract value.
00:33:28
Speaker
Then arrest disorder, or slow down the damage. This is where the green building movement is. This is where the sustainability movement is primarily. Yeah, like doing things less bad. Yep, less bad. And then there's do good, which sounds really good, except how do you know what good to do?
00:33:45
Speaker
So do good often is my me imposing my view of the world on you. is what the AID, of the World Bank has done all over the world. We're going to show you the way the Europeans work because- Yeah, it's the Green Deal.
00:34:01
Speaker
European Green Deal is all about now farmers have to do this. Yes. No, we have to do that. They're freaking out. That's do good. And that's a form of colonialism, if you will. Do it is colonialism.
00:34:13
Speaker
Now, that that's a cynical view. Of course, doing good is wonderful, wonderful aspirations. But how how do you know what good to do? And that goes to the next paradigm. That paradigm is evolve inherent potential or work with the essence because the inherent potential comes out of the essence of every living entity.
00:34:35
Speaker
admit Not problems, but potential. So this is a gigantic distinction. is that we always work with potential. We do not try to solve problems. is it Nature always works with potential.
00:34:48
Speaker
if any Forest fire comes through or a hurricane comes through and destroys an ecosystem, let's say. Nature doesn't try to solve one little problem or other. It just gets to work. Pioneering species, early succession species, mid-level succession, just keeps on marching.
00:35:03
Speaker
It doesn't go to the pub and drink herself in sorrow.
00:35:09
Speaker
Keeps going. There's always potential. Life is full of potential. so And this is why we do Story of Place, because the Story of Place is about ah helping people understand the essence of and the potential of their particular place.
00:35:23
Speaker
And that is energizing. And basically what we do with that, just to jump into some very pragmatics, we help people fall in love with life again through that process.
00:35:35
Speaker
We're helping them see how life works. We help them see their role in this place and the and the potential that exists. And that is a... incredibly powerful unifier. It's not guilt. It's not a checklist.
00:35:48
Speaker
It's building a field of care. And there, there's the secret sauce. Well, that's amazing. Yeah. Taking notes as we speak. That's very interesting. And so a few more things that I want to unpack. First one is...
00:36:04
Speaker
Yeah, let's go there even like I would love to understand because I feel this is a topic that is not much talked about and often frowned upon is the whole point of how do we use the Financial Institute, money, sales, all those things to actually move forward. Like I i so i ah meet so many people that are great practitioners in regeneration, like They're good at designing something. They're good at building it and and insane things. as They're great at helping nature restore.
00:36:36
Speaker
Whatever it is, they're really, really good at it. But then when it comes to them making business, because in a business, we need there has to be sort of an exchange.
00:36:47
Speaker
And the tool we have, which is actually a great innovation, in my opinion, is money. yeah Because we don't have to trade potatoes for a landscape design. Money can help us do that way better.
00:36:58
Speaker
So I'd love to understand. like And what the point i' was seeing is that a lot of people in in our industry, whether or not you agree they're part of the industry, they they are kind of scared of money. And they have like the money doesn't grow on trees. And they also feel like, oh, if it's good for nature, maybe it has to be very cheap or we have to do it for free or it should be NGO type of work.
00:37:21
Speaker
and And now we're coming back to the the do good for free almost. yeah So my question is, how was in in your personal journey? How did you go about that? And how do you think or what's the best piece of advice for young people starting out in the regeneration world to actually build a business of impact?
00:37:41
Speaker
Yeah. In that regard. This is important. Yeah. So my philosophy is is that profit is essential. view I don't care what you call it, capitalism or whatever, but if you don't have a margin or extra resources when you're done with work, you're stuck. You can't invest anything. You can't, but ah what is it? A cherry tree blows thousands of blossoms and seeds, right?
00:38:10
Speaker
It's a lot of excess there in order for more something to take hold. Well, you need to be having those resources so that you can further this work. So never be ashamed of profit.
00:38:23
Speaker
Now, you should be ashamed of excess and egregious profit, like the billionaires out there today, which is just, just it's ridiculous. Warren Buffett made a statement, the the investor at Berkshire, the famous investor in the United States, very wealthy, very wealthy man, She does this maybe 20 or 30 years ago. He said, no one is worth more than $300,000 a year.
00:38:45
Speaker
No one. That doesn't mean that you're worth less. It's just whether you're a plumber or regenerative practitioner or an architect or a CEO of a company.
00:38:57
Speaker
Everybody has their unique skill set. Just because I know how to work with spreadsheets and be an effective leader doesn't mean I should be getting more money than a plumber. So i'm I'm a big fan of universal basic income. but um But that being said,
00:39:14
Speaker
the no matter what you're doing, you deserve to be able to make a living and you deserve to be able to reinvest that to further the mission of this work. So i've never so i am not very I'm not a very happy money person.
00:39:30
Speaker
wait we i was We were very poor when I was a kid. So i'm i am I am not comfortable being poor, but i'm certainly not I certainly don't need to be rich and I'm not rich at all.
00:39:43
Speaker
But the but how do you value so so but I mean, look, I i think consider this is wealth behind me. sort But the the nature of being a business is not is also to to value yourself.
00:40:00
Speaker
And so from the very beginning, We found, look here, look give me a little background on Regenesis. We thought that we would be hired by government, at least I thought we'd be hired by governments and NGOs and nonprofits who would understand the mission better.
00:40:14
Speaker
Zero, zero, because bureaucracies don't understand how to work this way. They don't understand how work with holes, right? Bureaucracies are checklist people. And so what was interesting is what I call at-risk developers, real estate developers, were our clients who were willing to say, you know what? I need to leave a legacy for my grandkids. I've done some pretty crappy developments in the past.
00:40:39
Speaker
I need to, you're talking a language I need to respond to. Or they wanted to be, they knew that sustainability was important and they heard regeneration. They said, oh, that sounds like a better sustainability. We want that.
00:40:51
Speaker
So whatever the reason was, which was never entirely noble, but it was better than nothing, we got hired. And the projects were big enough. Now, one of the complaints that many people have not, some people have observed to me is that, well, you're all your clients are wealthy.
00:41:08
Speaker
Yeah, they are. because people with those kinds of resources and margins in their life can afford to take risks. So we shouldn't be there. They're, they're preparing the way there's there. They're paving the way, if you will, for those of us who don't have those kinds of resources.
00:41:27
Speaker
Uh, so I guess I'm, I'm giving a little mini lecture here. Uh, but the, um, We found out by accident that we could actually make it make a living, make a decent living doing this work. And it's never stopped. For 30 years, it's been the case.
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah. That's how you actually increased the impact because you you you were able to build the team, the staff, the the network, and then working. And and i I agree, just like it's ah it's a business strategy to first work with people that are very wealthy and then can afford your service to use that experience to then make it more affordable over time. That's how Elon Musk built Tesla.
00:42:12
Speaker
He made a supercar, electric supercar. That was, I think, two, three hundred thousand at the time. Now you can buy a Tesla and they're probably even nicer than that sports car that he first sold for 30,000 because all the R&D and the the money they were they made with the high paying clients, they could reinvest in in making it more affordable.
00:42:35
Speaker
And you don't have to spend the time. I'm working on a big project right now where we're spending so much time bringing them up to just current practice um that that ultimately it will be much less ah less costly for us to be engaged.
00:42:50
Speaker
um I think where I had a number of directions I wanted to take this. But from a practical from a practical from a practitioner's point of view, Matthew, what would you want to explore right now?
00:43:03
Speaker
That's a good question. like I would love to understand.
Internal Development Focus at Regenesis
00:43:08
Speaker
Regeneresys is a very known company. It's done something very right in the regenerative world. One of the few companies that that has actually...
00:43:18
Speaker
um has a very strong ethic and is actually building those projects as a whole. What is the like we've already had some insight on the secret sauce, but what do you think was the single most important step that the company took to be where you are today?
00:43:35
Speaker
Oh. I think the biggest step was the practice of developing ourselves and managing our being state. hit So three, Gertrude talks about the the three essential aspects of existence, function, being, and will.
00:43:57
Speaker
Rudolf Steiner, Otto Scharmer's work, Hand, heart, and mind. What, how, and why. You need to be holding all those three dimensions. And we spent every week, probably three or four hours, working on how we actually work on projects, how we work with clients. So we continually practiced and honed our capability, not just doing it, but actually who do we need to be?
00:44:22
Speaker
to to be effective? um How do we present ourselves when somebody is angry or um not understanding what we're doing or frustrated? Because everybody, by the way, most people are always frustrated with their work because we're not doing a project. And one of the, let me go sideways here for a second. What I tell our developer clients and architects who we're working with, your project is not the project.
00:44:45
Speaker
The project is life. review Your project will emerge from that understanding. you need So we can ask our clients to throw away all their master planning, throw away all their designs, because more than likely, maybe they're good. We don't know. But more than likely, we need to discover first principles and and how this place works and then how this development can actually support how this place works.
00:45:11
Speaker
your project is secondary if you care about regeneration and sustainability now that's an act of faith and many clients many clients or first clients clients will say well or they're they're looking at working with us they'll say well tell me what you're going to do it's well we can tell you a general process because we actually develop contracts we we have very accurate fee proposals Well, they say, well, no, I'm going to know what going to in this project because what they want is control and no one is ever in charge. See, there's no one is ever in control, but we think we are.
00:45:45
Speaker
So the first big breakthrough or breakdown that has to happen is to abandon a sense of control. And they'll say, opinion, people will say, well, no, I need to know what you're going to do on this project so I can actually trust you.
00:45:59
Speaker
they said, you can't. So if that doesn't work for you, um Now imagine this 30 years ago, we had no project experience to go on. So we had some really trusted clients. Now we can say, go talk to her go talk to those folks. They'll give you the same idea. And they do.
00:46:15
Speaker
<unk> score We have clients who we we we actually hire some of our clients to work with us on projects now. and And they will say to our new client, just trust the process. Trust the process. poo Right over their head. keep You don't know the process. So this is really an act of It isn't for everybody.
00:46:35
Speaker
So this is why you you went when we're interviewing and and ah determining whether we're going to work with a new client or not, it's just as much when away we're interviewing them.
00:46:47
Speaker
to see if they have the will it is to go through this work. I'm kind rambling around here. I don't know if have a point to No, no, no. I think this, like asked you what, what's like, what is the best thing that Regenison did in order to be the level where you are. And that's exactly what you did. You hold onto your integrity, first of all, but then you also, you don't work with anyone. You just like, you want to work with the people that, that trust you that want to take that leap of faith um otherwise you might start working together and then they will micromanage you or as you go through the process they're like oh but what's coming and yeah if they there's trust is is the biggest is the most important thing to to be able to do great results but here's the deal
00:47:35
Speaker
No one understands. I mean, ah you um I know we know this path is that no one understands what sustainability, what's required for sustainability. No one understands what's required for regeneration. Heck, we don't either. We're trying to figure this out. Every project, we're figuring this out.
00:47:50
Speaker
Yeah. And so, um There are always going to be moments where the client will say, what the hell is going on here? They don't understand. And this is where it is so important to be able to manage your state of being, to allow the client to thrash around and get angry. because and Because transformation is, this is truly transformative stuff. This is not just more of the same.
00:48:18
Speaker
and and And change is hard for people. And they... they will react in many ways. mean, we've been fired many times and ah and I want to qualify that.
00:48:29
Speaker
We've been fired many times and every project we've been fired on, we've been rehired within a year. And I think that's kind of spectacular. I don't suggest that as a business model, but it is really amazing that people, they've been touched in a different way and they have to process that.
00:48:46
Speaker
And it's not easy because it is a paradigm shift. Oh, yeah, totally. I feel even, yeah, even listening to you and and even for me, it's it's ah challenging to go like, OK, now I can go and do that in my work. No, it doesn't work like that. It's like, yeah, as as a shift in being You got to set the intention and then, and then figure it out along the way. I think that's, yeah, that's how I've actually grown my business the most too, is like doing these things that you don't know how you're actually going to do it, but you know, like I'll find a way.
00:49:20
Speaker
Yeah. And then it works and it's, it's, yeah, it's uncomfortable at times. So we, Regenesis has pretty much turned into an educational institution because we're getting old and I can be around. Um, so how does this carry on? And that's definitely the right wet place to go. I'm still pretty much primary. I'm a faculty member also of the Institute, but primarily a practitioner in projects.
00:49:45
Speaker
Um, but the reason I'm um telling you this is that in the regenerative practitioner, which is this kind of opening introductory course on how to work with these frameworks, the first session is on managing your state of being.
00:50:00
Speaker
And most everybody who takes the course says, you know what does this have to do with projects, right? Just let me, let's get to the, me okay, okay, okay, well, let's get to the projects. or Well, this is the thing. but that's just a This is the most important thing.
00:50:15
Speaker
And it took me 10 years working with Regenesis to figure that out. Took me 10 years to actually realize, oh, this really is about my development and me not being a jerk.
00:50:28
Speaker
because now let me just a simple way of picturing this. We call it three lines of work, self or inner whole. There could be the project self, but self, group, and system.
00:50:41
Speaker
So the only way we get things done in our culture is through a group of people. Generally, teams or organizations are effective in getting things done. Individuals rarely can do anything on their own.
00:50:51
Speaker
But if I'm a jerk, and and we're all jerks in many ways, but if I'm a jerk, and I'm really an outwardly obnoxious jerk, then the group is going to have to spend a lot of time dealing with my jerkiness.
00:51:08
Speaker
And so the group will not be effective. So in order for the group to be effective, I have to be managing my own state of being. We all do. And then in service, so what is the group in service to the group has to have ah something larger that they're in service to, whether it's a customer base, if you're a company or an ecosystem or a place, if you're working in landscape or architecture development. So the three lines of work are self, group, system, and all of them are equally important.
00:51:39
Speaker
And so in our projects, we are asking people to be reflective. We're not trying to tell them to think a certain way or to be a certain way. Just reflect on their what's informing their state of being so they can manage that state. They can self-reflect, self-remember, called self-observing, self-remembering. And just helping people pausing and reflecting is a very powerful mechanism.
00:52:10
Speaker
Not assuming that everybody's on the same page, because guaranteed, 100% of people are are not on the same page. This is why most of this work is about alignment around belief and philosophy.
00:52:22
Speaker
Yeah, and creating a space to facilitate that is probably where that's right where everyone can self-reflect and then that then more alignment seems to get born from there.
00:52:36
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I've been very inspired bill by by our conversation and we're nearing the end. I still want to ask one question related to looking into the future and you and me knowing like, okay, we want we want to have an impact in the world.
Evolving Nature and Modeling Futures
00:52:51
Speaker
We want and I have to be careful now, do good, not necessarily, but we know that there's a lot of challenges that our planet is facing.
00:53:00
Speaker
And we also see that the movement is maybe not going fast enough. What do you think is the biggest challenge for regeneration to to become mainstream?
00:53:11
Speaker
Or is that is that something that we should work for, push for? like How do we get it out of the fringes into everyone does it? Yeah, I hold this whole discussion about speed and panic.
00:53:25
Speaker
Mm hmm. I don't think that's the right way to go about this. Let's we are already in collapse, Matthew. So this is not something in the future. This is happening now.
00:53:38
Speaker
And I don't want to be cavalier about this because it it will sound cavalier, but we all die now. Our children. I mean, that is an agonizing thing to think about.
00:53:49
Speaker
But um What we are going to leave behind is what's important. So can we fix it? I don't know. Maybe.
00:54:00
Speaker
um What's more important is to change the nature our very, to evolve our very nature. So this work is primarily about building a field, a field of energy, a field of love, if you will.
00:54:12
Speaker
And panic doesn't build that. no So our being state in the face of disaster, in the face of pain, in the face of self-centered politics, what's important is to to model the future that we want.
00:54:29
Speaker
And hopefully the people that remain are our children, because there will be survivors, I hope. i hope Certainly progenic, progenic, not pronouncing word right.
00:54:41
Speaker
they'll they'll have a different spirit and a different nature about them. So this work is about not building panic, but building a sense of equanimity and care and love.
00:54:57
Speaker
and I believe that will take care of itself. okay Yeah. Because we can't fix it. We can only fix ourselves. This gets back to who I am and who we need to be. If it's an outward problem, if we're thinking it's an outward, I'm going to fix you, Matthew, because I don't like the way I don't like your hair how long your hair is.
00:55:17
Speaker
Whatever. Appreciate the comment. but You know what mean? I'm i'm my judgment doesn't help. ah And you would perceive it as Joshua, but my care will help.
00:55:29
Speaker
yeah i care for you as a person my care for me and our relationship is what so and i think what's important is to help us help and the beauty of this work is is that nature self-organizes if we just gate if we just work with her on our own terms so it's this loving nature on her own terms it's loving you on your own terms you know this is what its essence to essence relationship is about honoring your essence honoring the essence of a place is a gift we can give yeah i love that i think the the the beingness of starting with yourself and then that kind of gets contagious and goes on to other people either by example or you create curiosity and they want to find out more of like oh what what are you doing how are you doing that but then okay that's that's work or you can study with us or whatever that's that's the way to create impact because all the other ways of imposing of um forcing change or or going in a panic mode has never really worked so and i agree with you yeah great well bill we're at the end of our interview what's
00:56:37
Speaker
One final thing you would like to share to our audience before before
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:56:41
Speaker
we wrap it up. Also, how can people get in touch with you, with Regenesis, with with what they're what you're doing, if they want to help out or be part of of the movement?
00:56:51
Speaker
Yeah, well, the the website, the education group, the institute website is Regenerats. Regenerats, love and rights with with a dot e s or regeneraterot dot e s so it. So sounds like we're from Spain, right? But we're not. Just Regenerats.
00:57:08
Speaker
That gets you to the institute. And then there's regenesisgroup.com think is the practice group. and the websites are all going to be changed in the next few months. But okay um yeah, so in my you can get me at Bill at Regenesis group.com questions. um I think I but I think in a part a parting comment would be just what you and I just left. I think that's the most important thing. That's our state of being and becoming.
00:57:40
Speaker
you know, Maturana and Varela talk about life for the definition of life and to paraphrase it, life is the process of becoming. And that's what we're working with, with sustainability is life, life on its own terms. So life is continually evolving. And how do we actually stay in that in that process?
00:57:59
Speaker
That's our job, to not only stay in the process, but to actually guide the process. And also because we have a role to play, not that we should be passive. but also pay attention because we might screw it up, probably will.
00:58:13
Speaker
So to continually observe cause and effect, it's a dance, so a dance of life. Yeah, I love that. Well, Bill, thank you very much for coming on and I hope to see you again soon.
00:58:25
Speaker
Indeed. Thanks, Mathieu. Delightful.