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EP44: Allan Savory – Why We’re Solving The Wrong Problems
30 Plays1 day ago
“Most people are good. I really believe that. Most people are doing their best. Then you have to ask yourself, not just in agriculture, but in every field, well, if so many people mean well, why is so much going wrong?”
Many of the world’s biggest environmental, social, and economic problems may not be caused by bad people or a lack of scientific knowledge. They may stem from the way large institutions make decisions. This episode explores the difference between treating symptoms and addressing root causes, challenging conventional thinking around science, governance, biodiversity loss, agriculture, and civilization itself. Rather than focusing on isolated solutions, the discussion centers on understanding the systems that shape human behavior and ecological outcomes.
Allan Savory argues that many environmental and social crises stem from the way institutions develop policy rather than from a lack of knowledge or good intentions. Drawing on experiences as an ecologist, farmer, parliamentarian, and founder of holistic management, he discusses scientific dogma, biodiversity loss, the limitations of modern political systems, and the ideas behind his new memoir, UnSavory. Allan challenges listeners to think beyond regenerative agriculture alone and consider how decision-making structures influence the future of civilization itself.
Allan is a Zimbabwean ecologist, farmer, former parliamentarian, and founder of holistic management. Trained in zoology and botany, he spent decades studying wildlife, grassland ecosystems, and desertification, leading to groundbreaking work in regenerative land management. After serving as a Member of Parliament and opposition leader during Zimbabwe’s civil war, he was exiled in 1979 and continued developing his ideas internationally. Allan later co-founded both the Africa Centre for Holistic Management and the Savory Institute. His TED Talk on holistic grazing has been viewed more than 9 million times, and his 2026 memoir, UnSavory: African Stories of Wildlife, War, and the Birth of Holistic Management, explores the experiences that shaped his life’s work.
Learn more & connect:
Allan Savory TED Talk: How to Fight Desertification and Reverse Climate Change
UnSavory: African Stories of Wildlife, War, and the Birth of Holistic Management
Africa Centre for Holistic Management
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Transcript
Discovering Contradictory Truths
00:00:00
Speaker
I was educated in a conventional university, and what I went on to discover is virtually the opposite of everything I was taught. So by the end of the book, people see that we came up with, we, not me, came up with two discoveries that defied all human belief.
00:00:20
Speaker
They had become dogma, scientific t truths. To this day, they're being taught in virtually every university in the world, and they're untrue. Hello and welcome to the Regenerative Design Podcast. I'm your host Mathieu Mehuys and in this show I interview the leading authorities in the world of regenerative practices.
00:00:40
Speaker
People who do good and do well. Are you person that cares about your environment and our planet, that wants to leave the planet to our children to be something that we can be truly proud of, to enjoy for many generations to come?
00:00:53
Speaker
But are you also a person that believes we can do all of this and do good in business? I have really good news for you. You're here listening to the podcast that is all about making our planet a better place and making your business more successful.
Introduction to Regenerative Design Podcast
00:01:08
Speaker
Enjoy the show. Welcome to another episode of the Regenerative Design Podcast with your host Mathieu. And today it's quite amazing. We have one of the most impressive guests on the show today. We have Alan Savory on the show here today.
00:01:23
Speaker
And Alan Savory has been an example for myself. He is a a leader in the space of holistic management, regenerative farming and holistic plant grazing. He's the author of the bull of the book,
00:01:36
Speaker
Holistic management. He's world famous because of a TED talk that went very viral talking about how cows can actually save the planet and we'll definitely dive very deep into that and ah it's interesting actually the previous guest was Rob Wolf who who wrote the book The Sacred Carb So it's kind of interesting how we're going from Rob Wolf now to Alan Savory. So we're stepping it up and we're adding another gear.
Alan Savory's Memoir and Holistic Management Discoveries
00:02:02
Speaker
And so i'm very excited to talk with Alan, with you today. Alan, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? Well, thank you. Nice. I'm also very excited to talk about your new book, which has some a controversy around it the Unsavory book.
00:02:17
Speaker
But before we dive into that, we already talked offline saying like we we should create an interview with lots of value and have some difficult questions because you're up for that.
00:02:27
Speaker
so But before we we dive into that, I still want to start off a little bit slow. and And I want to understand like your're your backstory. i mean, it's very famous, as your backstory, but I want to understand from you, like as a child, were you already thinking about plant grazing? Were you already worried about the planet? like What were some of the key elements in in your early childhood that that shaped who you are today?
00:02:54
Speaker
ah Matthew, this is why i wrote the memoir Unsavory, And it's African stories of wildlife, war, and the development of holistic management.
00:03:09
Speaker
And then I go into the early childhood years and the war years and everything. And every bit of it played a role from early character building and British type boarding schools, the racism in Africa.
00:03:24
Speaker
um they There was a fellow who wrote a book His name was Liebenberg, and he wrote a book tracking the origin of science.
00:03:36
Speaker
and um And I spent an unfortunate um two or three decades of my life ah tracking people and tracking problem animals and as an ecologist. So it's the role that played in us eventually learning what it meant to be able to manage holistically at at any level, as city people, people in jobs, people in factories, every every human being, because we have this global problem.
00:04:07
Speaker
so So that's why I wrote Unsavory. And when you asked me as a child, was I thinking
Critique of Scientific Methods
00:04:13
Speaker
of these things? No. I was brought up in a conventional a university, educated in a conventional university.
00:04:21
Speaker
And what I went on to discover is virtually the opposite of everything I was taught So by the end of the book, people see that we came up with, we, not me, came up with two discoveries that defied all human belief.
00:04:38
Speaker
They had become dogma, scientific truths. To this day, they're being taught in virtually every university in the world, and they're untrue. And as a consequence, we've got a world in deep trouble.
00:04:51
Speaker
so So the book Unsavory is about that history and No, I had no clue. And I described my mistakes, my blunders, because I followed my conventional academic training and how wrong it was and how no scientists would ever admit error.
00:05:09
Speaker
no But I did, and then I got the abuse. And everybody went on to get praise and awards who would not permit admit error, but what they were doing was wrong. So it's it's you can see why I've called it unsavory.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah, no, I love that. And I think it's a very interesting point to bring up in the so science is super important for us to understand how things work. We were talking about it, like the all the work that I do with my work in regenerative design and helping people with their gardens, landscapes, all of that. It's all based on how nature works. And and your book was ah was a pivotal moment in my life to understand how nature works with the brittleness scale, understanding what climates you are and obviously how cows can play an instrumental role in in regenerating the planet on a bigger scale.
00:05:57
Speaker
But in ah in many cases, the there's two problems that are... I'm ah actually going to ask you the problem the question. What do you think are the main problems with the scientific world in terms of what they do and what it actually brings of value to the world?
00:06:12
Speaker
Well, the main problems with the scientific world a Scientific world is ah is a very broad term. Aim of science was to understand nature.
00:06:24
Speaker
and Science means building up knowledge and confirming it in every way we can. And we've been doing this since ah before any academics in the world.
00:06:37
Speaker
It was totally illiterate people who learned how to investigate every plant and animal that we virtually have today that made civilization possible. Those were scientists, and yet there was no concept of science at the time. and that began ah probably 500,000 years ago with hunter-gatherers tracking their food.
00:07:01
Speaker
um And a fellow called Lievenberg wrote this book, you know, Tracking is the Origin of Science. So when you say what of the problems with it today, i think it's perhaps best illustrated by An example i had, I had 10 people approximately for training with me in Africa recently. They were all well-educated. I think one or two had PhDs, some had master's degrees.
00:07:28
Speaker
And I just asked them three questions. I asked them, what is the scientific
Communication Challenges of Savory Institute
00:07:33
Speaker
method? And they could all describe it. You develop a hypothesis and you test it you prove it or disprove it.
00:07:40
Speaker
That is not science. That is a way you test knowledge. Then I asked them, what is the peer-reviewed process? And they could all describe it exactly. ah You can't get things published unless people who are regarded as your peers approve of it. Well, that's a publication process.
00:08:01
Speaker
That's a process to try to weed out ah rubbish, et cetera. That's not science. That's a publication process. And then I asked them, what is science? And there was total silence. They couldn't answer it.
00:08:14
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:08:46
Speaker
So what is science in your point of view? I accept the the definition of science that I first read when I was under probably a teenager. It was the quest for knowledge yeah about how nature works.
00:09:00
Speaker
That's it. yeah that's that's Yeah, it's like so basic, but people try to think much more of it. And then I also had an interesting experience. like I wrote my master thesis about ah food systems on a global scale. And then i my my promoter said, okay, you gotta you have the opportunity to now publish it as a paper. So i I did a lot of work. I rewrote it into a small paper. And then I went to one of these events with other people ah people that write papers and are scientists. And I thought like, wow, this is going to be a very interesting event. We get to talk, share ideas.
00:09:37
Speaker
And I was so astonished because what the only thing that happened is that people presented their paper. At the end of it, everyone clapped. ah We got together for like a dinner and then they published a magazine.
00:09:50
Speaker
And then I don't even know where that magazine lived. And that was it. And I was like, wow, this is the scientific world that has to produce progress or help humanity understand how things work. And it's just like a kind of ego trip where everyone just applauds for each other, whatever the topic really is about.
00:10:10
Speaker
ah So I think that was quite disturbing. And so I definitely went out of that world and then went into the business world, which up until today, I think is the most effective way to actually use the science to make change.
00:10:23
Speaker
and And now um I want to go to something interesting that happened. So the way we actually got in contact was I had a look at your or not not your but the website of the Savory Institute. And I was so shocked to see that that even on the Savory Institute,
00:10:39
Speaker
The way your work is being showed is like it's all about NGO and trying to do good for humanity and doing all this good work. And I took a print screen of it and I posted it on LinkedIn i and i I made a red cross through it saying like this is completely wrong messaging because there's not a single farmer or very few farmers in the world that wake up in the morning and say, oh, how am I going save the planet.
00:11:08
Speaker
Nobody does. Nobody does. And that's yeah very disturbing. so and And then I tagged you into that post and you responded to me saying that that I was correct.
00:11:20
Speaker
So I'd love to hear more about that story and what what has happened um in that realm of the saving. You you've covered quite a few things there. Let me cover the first two, the ah your your experience with publication and then come to this. Yes, in the memoir, I mentioned two instances.
00:11:40
Speaker
My first attempt at pump publishing in Oryx and how it was rejected, and and that sort of shook me it because it went against the beliefs of all my superiors and so on.
00:11:51
Speaker
And I tried to publish something, observations, and they went, but so it rejected. All right, so now then another thing I mentioned in the memoir, it was a major international conference in Pretoria in South Africa,
00:12:06
Speaker
And ah I presented a paper that on human environmental ecology. Our humans are it along with all the animals. We're not independent of it, et cetera.
Loss of Organizational Purpose
00:12:19
Speaker
And it was a very rare thing in that day in those days. But with a packed hall, I got a standing ovation to a paper. And yet if you read the publications,
00:12:32
Speaker
that were published from those the proceedings of that conference. Mine is the only paper not published. that's So, you know I've had these experiences and how science, which is the quest for knowledge as to how nature functions, which physicists and everybody's engaged in, um has become peer review process and experimental, you know, protocols.
00:12:59
Speaker
ah And so you mentioned the TED talk going viral. Yes, it's gone to over 9 million people. But if you look at it today, it still carries a disclaimer because the people at TED were so criticized, mostly by Texas A&M Professor Briskey, for even allowing me to talk, that it still, all these years later, carries a disclaimer.
00:13:27
Speaker
And nobody's ever counted it, they that this sort of disclaimer. And TED organization no longer talked to me. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah.
00:13:38
Speaker
So, you see, we've had these experiences. So, coming to your other point, not necessarily my old mind, i've I've slightly forgotten. What was your your final question? No, i I gave you a lot of things at once. So I was talking about ah that I, the way we actually got in in contact was quite interesting because I, i yeah, you want to jump in from there? I got a yeah youre you it. me there.
00:14:02
Speaker
Yes, you wrote something and it it it was, in a way, it was critical of, say, reinstitute. And I said, you're correct. Yeah, that is my nature. yeah And if people criticize what I'm saying, if they're correct, I say yes. And I,
00:14:16
Speaker
I put it right immediately. And yes, a lot of things the Savory Institute are doing, i don't agree with. um And in fact, I recently retired from the organization just to become independent again, because they're there are always difficulties with any institution or organization, they always.
00:14:39
Speaker
So you look at, um again, something will illustrate this, I think, for your your listeners. um A while back, I was having coffee and at the Victoria Falls in Zimbabwe with two young men coming from wealthy families, well-educated, university educated, and we were having coffee and and chatting. And they said to me, Alan, but there must be something you're doing wrong because the message you have is so clear and so simple.
00:15:10
Speaker
But if we've watched all your life. You're getting bombarded and criticized and ah rejected and ridiculed. ah You're doing something wrong. And I said, yes, you guys, I am. And I've had many people tell me how wrong I'm doing things, but I've never had anybody tell me how to do it right.
00:15:28
Speaker
And I said, what about you guys? How are you doing? They said, what do you mean? Well, I said, how are you doing? And they said, we we don't understand you. And I said, well, ah by the look of you, you look like Christians, are you?
00:15:40
Speaker
And they said, yes, we we are Christians. And I said, I guess so. I said, now, what did your founder have to say? Didn't he just talk about love and caring? And they said, yes. and I said, isn't that very simple?
00:15:52
Speaker
They said, yes. And I said, okay, for 2,000 years, millions and millions and millions of ordinary people have been capable of love and caring for each other.
00:16:03
Speaker
But how did you do when you formed organizations to try to take your religion to scale? How did you do? i said, you've had 2,000 years of wars, killing, slaughter.
00:16:16
Speaker
It's got endless. It's been endless. I said, you're not doing any better than I'm doing. The moment we develop institutions or organizations, there's a real tendency that they go off track.
00:16:31
Speaker
there So you've got, for example, today, and that's why i hope people outside of agriculture will be listening to us. So you've got people today in America who um who look at corporations.
00:16:47
Speaker
and I'm not saying taking America, but you could take other countries and look at corporations. Well, corporations are organizations that states, governments, license to operate because people can pool capital and resources for a greater good of of the population.
00:17:06
Speaker
So that's basically why we have corporations. right So we allow that, and states and countries allow it. Now, if you look at what's happening today in just one aspect, ah in the America, some 300,000 people a year are dying from obesity-related deaths.
00:17:31
Speaker
That's more than America's annual war deaths in two world wars. Now, normally a population would pick up their ears and say, something's wrong here. Why is this happening?
00:17:42
Speaker
Well, it's easily traceable. It's because these corporations are poisoning the environment, poisoning the to crops. ah you like I could go on and on. It's all well documented. ah right for Because the purpose of corporations has now become their responsibility in everything is to give a positive quarterly profit return to shareholders.
00:18:07
Speaker
So now for a quarterly profit return share to shareholders, we're prepared to accept higher death rates every year than two world wars. It doesn't make sense.
00:18:21
Speaker
That's what my book's about. Discovering what was going on because all these are good people. They're not bad people. It happens to us and it's happened to me and it happens to everyone.
00:18:35
Speaker
We are Fine, as long as we're now small communities, et cetera. When we go to scale, we have problems.
Flaws in Policy Development
00:18:42
Speaker
um Another example, and why should we we should be talking, I wish why we were talking to everybody, not just farmers, is nations form armies to defend the nation.
00:18:55
Speaker
Now, if you look historically, I believe there are many instances where the army of a nation has killed more of its own citizens to keep a political party in power than it ever killed of enemy ah enemies.
00:19:12
Speaker
And in my life, I'm 1991 shortly, ah I've experienced that three times in my life. The Russian army, the German army, and then the Rhodesian army, Zimbabwean army.
00:19:26
Speaker
Just taking my own army because i was involved in it as an officer for many, many years. All right. In that, if you look at our army through the Boer War, ah First World War, Second World War, Malayan, et cetera, our soldiers were The number of Japanese, Germans, et cetera, enemies that they killed is very small compared with during the war in which I was engaged.
00:19:57
Speaker
We killed 30,000 of our own citizens. And then immediately the war ended. As I describe in the memoir, we killed another 20,000. So that's 50,000 of our own. That's far more than our army ever killed of foreign enemies in four wars.
00:20:15
Speaker
So I've experienced that in my own life, but most people don't think about it. And there's a reason why that happens. And that's what ah we finally discovered, a way to solve that.
00:20:27
Speaker
Because most people are good. I really believe that. Most people are doing their best. Then you have to ask yourself, not not just in agriculture, but in every field, well, if so many people don't mean well, why is so much going wrong?
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah. There's a reason. That's simple. Yeah, there's a very interesting book I i wrote i read about that. I think it's in, yeah, it it completely talked about what you just said. i have I'll add it to the show notes and and that you know because I can't come up with the title, but it pretty much stated that per se, most people are good, ah but that the way structures are been set up makes it that there's so much confusion and then wars start or miss just from misinterpretations and misconceptions, all of a sudden ah people start fighting and and that's what what happens. And that seems to be the same with, with let's say, the war on meat or or you shouldn't eat meat or you you have, like, there's so much extremes in all directions.
00:21:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And you can go back in ancient texts. and read about the people blaming the shepherds and too many sheep and so on. and that That goes back thousands of years when the biblical civilizations were being swamped by desert sands.
00:21:47
Speaker
You know, there's a way ah forward in COP26, which is, what, about three years ago? i was but one of three ah people around the world who were invited to talk about regenerative agriculture.
00:22:04
Speaker
at COP26, and it's a very short talk. It's 12 minutes, you can look at it. And in that, I said i had no intention of doing that, because I said, you know, there are other people, there are thousands of people in the world who know far more about agriculture than I do.
00:22:21
Speaker
What I intend to do here is to talk about the cause of the problem. Why are we having COP26, which is about climate change? And I just spoke about the cause,
00:22:33
Speaker
And I offered a simple way forward that would unite people, be totally non-controversial. And it's the only thing I've ever ever put out that's gone to thousands of people through social media.
00:22:47
Speaker
And I haven't had one single word of criticism. But I've had not a single person prepared to act or support me. So it's strange what goes on. What?
00:22:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really tough one. And I, so first of all, I want to just state that the fact that I criticized Savory Institute was not a direct attack on you. It was just from my understanding to know that when we talk to farmers, we have to talk their language, which is how how am I going to survive? Like I'm financially struggling, like I need a better way. And and the Savory Institute and your work can actually offer that with the holistic grazing systems.
00:23:26
Speaker
So, I think that's interesting when we have to understand who we are talking to ah and change our our way of talking. If you're talking to an environmentalist, of course, it's about carbon emissions, whatever, ah and other policies that could help. But if you're talking to a farmer and you explain him that, he's like, well, no, I'm definitely not interested because that sounds like it's going to cost me a lot of money and and I'm going to have to pay more taxes or...
00:23:53
Speaker
So i'm I'm interested to understand now from your angle, because there's two things to unpack here. First of all, in the in that trajectory where you see that these institutions fail, the logical consequence would be we have to become more individual and figure out things on our own. That that may be a logical consequence. And a lot of people in the world have done that.
00:24:19
Speaker
But if we look at the big problems that we are facing, climate change, we are not going to be able to solve it as an as a when everyone thinks individually. There has to be some kind of a collectivism, which then is again too dangerous to fall back into maybe so institutionalization and misinformation. So... I'm curious to understand from your angle at this point in your life, what is the best way forward? Because you have so much knowledge that you gathered and so much things you went through in your life. And we got to stand on the shoulders of the giants like you who have gathered so much information and bring this work forward.
00:24:55
Speaker
So what do you think my generation has to focus on in the next 10 years? Well, you better focus quicker than 10 years. ah because geometric progressions go like this, you know, they increase rapidly.
00:25:11
Speaker
it's it's It's a like complicated issue that if you if people will relax and just calm down and say, talk to me um about it, you find there's ah an incredibly simple way to solve it.
00:25:30
Speaker
if we address the root cause of the problem, which is what I began to do at COP26. So you talk about organizations and the problem.
00:25:41
Speaker
Yes, but but we cannot abandon them because when you do and you go back to just small communities, hunter-gatherer tribes, you've got war and warfare and and many problems.
00:25:52
Speaker
right So we absolutely have to have organizations, particularly with a global population. So that's a given. Don't fight against organizations.
00:26:03
Speaker
But accept that organizations are not human. They have no human feelings. They have no compassion, no common sense, no love, no caring, no ability to say they're wrong, to apologize. Organizations don't do this.
00:26:17
Speaker
Okay? So they're not human, but we need them. Now, that being the case... Then you look at, all right, so where is are things going wrong? let Let's look at agriculture for a moment because it's the foundation of civilization.
00:26:33
Speaker
Without food, you have no city, no army, no no university, no church, nothing. All right, so it's the foundation. So if we look at that, now looking at it, so how does it happen at scale? Farmers and ranchers and pastoralists. When we abandoned our cities in the past, when they failed,
00:26:54
Speaker
which we've done all around the world, all right? They went back to handling their communities, their families, and they were fine. Well, we can't abandon our cities in the future. It's going to be too much suffering and war and so on. So we can't do that.
00:27:09
Speaker
So now we have to have these organizations. So we've got to produce food by farmers, et cetera. But at scale, at large scale, all right,
00:27:20
Speaker
which is what matters to feed our big cities where most of the world population is now in cities, right? We have to have the organizations. So then you look at, well, how is the agricultural food production take place?
00:27:35
Speaker
And you see that it's governed by laws that our governments pass. This is how it will be done and by regulations. So you say you live in Portugal.
00:27:47
Speaker
When I was in Portugal and Spain last, I kept pointing out things that were wrong on the land, terribly wrong. Damaging Spain, damaging Portugal, damaging your economy, damaging communities.
00:27:59
Speaker
Every farmer I spoke to said, we know it's wrong. I said, well, why are you doing it? They said, we forced you by EU policies, subsidies. right, so this is where the problem is is at scale.
00:28:12
Speaker
All right, so now we can overcome that easily if we say, all right, then the way to deal with it at scale is to and look at how every government, whether it's a dictatorship or a democracy, develops policy.
00:28:28
Speaker
Now, the belief in society and universities and governments was they do that in a great many different ways, probably hundreds of different ways. What we discovered in 1983 was they don't.
00:28:42
Speaker
Every government does it exactly the same way. whether it's a dictatorship, whether it's China, whether it's Russia, whether it's Democratic Party, Republican Party, it doesn't matter. They do it exactly the same way.
00:28:54
Speaker
All right, so when we look at that way that that governments develop policy, we say, oh, there's a problem. It wasn't bad people. It's the way we were doing it.
00:29:04
Speaker
And so when we look at that, it becomes easy to solve. And now what you do is when you get the head of state um As I began to suggest in COP26, when you get the head of state, say it's you heading whatever political party, i don't care, and you're going to develop a policy, well, how you do so is you invite experts.
00:29:29
Speaker
Now, you will find that the experts you invite all work for institutions, farming organizations, ah maybe women's organizations, universities, government agencies,
00:29:42
Speaker
environmental organizations, but they will work. And they've usually got a PhD to head those organizations, particularly if they're scientifically tainted at all. So these people come in and they develop policy. Now, if you think of everybody in the room or at the table developing policy, ah starting with yourself as the leader of a political party, what is your first concern, your first interest as leader of a political party, democratic or dictatorship, doesn't matter, Your first interest is trying to gain support, keep support.
00:30:17
Speaker
Second interest is finance it. If your political party's bust, you're
Holistic Management in Policy
00:30:22
Speaker
out. Your third interest is staying in cost, in in power at all cost, doing everything you can to stay in power. So you've got three interests.
00:30:32
Speaker
Your fourth interest is citizen interests. That's your fourth interest. Now, when you think of every expert you've invited to the conference, To develop policy, what's their first in interest?
00:30:44
Speaker
It's their institution. Growing their institution, financing their institution, the reputation of the institution. Without that, they've they've identified with it. They're employed by it.
00:30:56
Speaker
And so let's say their third interest is citizen interests. So you've got maybe 20, 50 people, I don't care how many at the table developing so in agricultural policy, and every single person at the table, at best, citizens' interest is the third concern.
00:31:16
Speaker
There's where the problem lies. So what I did working with with others way back in the 80s was to begin, and I was working with World Bank economists and others at the time before I was vilified,
00:31:29
Speaker
and was to try to work out how how do we begin to change that. And I've kept quietly working on that all these years. And it's easy to change because we can use the holistic management framework that we've developed to deal with this complexity.
00:31:48
Speaker
And we can use that um to get those people to come and then actually to put citizen interests first and develop the policy And from the same people, you get totally different policy.
00:32:02
Speaker
You get the policy the world's dreaming of. Because almost every citizen in the world is wanting more security, more clean, healthy, nutritious food, when almost every citizen in the world wants the same things.
00:32:17
Speaker
Why can't a single government provide it? I've just explained. And it is that simple. But that seems to be the foundation of ah democratic societies.
00:32:28
Speaker
Or have you found societies in the past that were able to put the interest of citizens first? No. Have you? Nobody has.
00:32:39
Speaker
That's why that's why so civilizations have been failing. That's why you know the the old saying... that armies change civilizations, farmers destroy them.
00:32:51
Speaker
They never rise again because armies have changed civilizations throughout history. When farm farmers don't change them, they destroy them. And your your best evidence of that is Lower Egypt.
00:33:04
Speaker
ah The one place, because civilization is city-based by definition, and the one place in the world where civilization has lasted for over 10,000 years,
00:33:15
Speaker
Everywhere else, it's been 4,000 or whatever. And everywhere, it was on rivers, major rivers or seashores, where there was very inexpensive wind and water transport of food to feed the cities.
00:33:30
Speaker
Now, lower Egypt civilizations lasted for 10,000 years. If you go up the Nile, you find civilizations of the same time, 10,000, 5,000 years ago, all failed, all under desert sand or now under a swan dam.
00:33:47
Speaker
but ah Why did its civilization survive in Lower Egypt? Because it was changed many, many times. It was invaded, invaded, and changed by one army after another.
00:33:59
Speaker
But civilization, Lower Egypt, continued. And it continued because of the destruction of Ethiopia and higher areas in Africa that were providing the silt and the soil coming down the Nile every year and spreading out of the Delta.
00:34:17
Speaker
So in the Delta, for 10,000 years, we've had the destruction of large areas of Africa sustain one civilization through many changes for 10,000 years.
00:34:29
Speaker
and it's all there for us to observe if we just yeah calm down, relax, and just talk about it. Listen. Look at the evidence and look at what's causing the problem, and then we can begin to solve it.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think the the only major difference, I don't know, it's hard to claim that, but the only major difference from all those societies rising and falling is that they might have not had the scientific evidence of what was happening. Well, they didn't.
00:34:59
Speaker
Most likely they didn't. That's what we discovered now. So that's the... Like the first time in history, so to speak, that we can actually see what's coming. And that's the major difference.
00:35:10
Speaker
But it doesn't seem to seep in or be like in an urgency state. Yeah, I'm just interested to understand like... What you're almost saying or getting to is like we got to completely rearrange the democratic structures of the world, which seems like an impossible task to be mildly realistic.
00:35:34
Speaker
So is it possible or do we have And that's the top down approach, right? And it's it's needed because we know, like you said, that the European Union, the the farming subsidy system is failing.
00:35:46
Speaker
and My brother and father are farmers. We run a farm. We've taken a different route to to produce healthier and more direct food. But it's very, very, very, very tough in the system that that there is today.
00:36:00
Speaker
But it's also working and our farm is actually doing better than ever before and we have lots of diversification. We have people coming to visit the farm. Our biodiversity is increasing. People come to visit. it's it's It's definitely working even in the tough system that we are working in. So then you can question, is it better to focus on trying to solve those systems that don't work and almost need to completely fall down before they can be rebuilt?
00:36:25
Speaker
Or do we have to focus on the bottom-up approach and even in a tough system, inspire the right people to do the things in the right way?
00:36:36
Speaker
Or do we need both? And do we have to attempt both? What what is the answer there? I would say none of Okay, when you say, do we need to change the systems, etc., what do you mean? i mean, there's so many systems. There grazing systems, there are educational systems. Yeah, by system, I meant the the political system.
00:36:54
Speaker
Well, the political system, I believe, as did George Washington. I wrote a paper on governance after I had been exiled as leader of former leader of two political parties and a member of the governing party,
00:37:10
Speaker
And I had a lot of time to reflect on it. And I wrote a blog many years ago. And I concluded that your democracy will never, ever function as long as you have political parties. They make it impossible.
00:37:23
Speaker
And when I drafted that and sent it to some friends who were deep thinkers, one of them wrote back and asked me if I'd read George Washington, Farewell to the Nation.
00:37:34
Speaker
And I hadn't. So I went and read it and I found, oh, my God. 200 years before me, George Washington concluded the same. And he warned America never to allow the development of political parties.
00:37:46
Speaker
That was an idea that came from Britain, not from the Greeks. And it's wrong. As long as you've got political parties, you'll split your population into conflict. yeah So what we need is direct direct democracy.
00:38:00
Speaker
would Well, and no. You just need to address the cause of the problems. And it's it we we will ah it's a little bit like I often use the example of a bicycle.
00:38:15
Speaker
If you had never seen, and all your listeners had never seen a bicycle, didn't know it existed, and you did a podcast, and you said, Alan, I understand 50 years ago you developed a bicycle, and it's an incredible thing.
00:38:30
Speaker
ah But I hear you're known as unsavory because it's it's trash, it's it's rubbish. But tell me about it. And I explained to you, well, it's just two narrow wheels. You balance on it.
00:38:42
Speaker
You pedal, and that gear speeds your back wheel. You steer it with some steering handlebars. And the faster you ride and up to a point, the more stable you are.
00:38:55
Speaker
ah You just say, this man's crazy. And the more you ask me questions, the more I describe it, the more crazy you would say I was. And your podcast listeners are going to say the same.
00:39:06
Speaker
All right? Now, if we actually had a bicycle and you and all your podcast listeners were around it, any one of you would be riding it in 20 minutes.
00:39:16
Speaker
So what I suggested at COP26 is no more talk, no more explanations. Please just have one world leader step forward.
00:39:27
Speaker
Could be the president of Portugal, Spain, wonderful. Any nation, step forward and just say, I'm going to govern as normal. because the population expects it.
00:39:38
Speaker
But on the side, concurrently, I'm going to and invite Savory to help us and see if we can develop an agricultural policy to start with in the citizen interests of Portugal or Spain.
00:39:55
Speaker
And let the world observe it. Just keep quiet and observe it, see what happens. And if they like it, adopt it. If they don't, reject it. Now, I believe if we did that, if just one world leader had the courage to do that, which is no political risk at all.
00:40:14
Speaker
Now, if I'm wrong and they waste a year ah trying to work out a policy in citizen interests and I'm wrong, so what?
00:40:26
Speaker
We might have wasted half a million dollars, a million dollars. That's what we wasted. If I'm right and world leaders are observing it, you won't be able to put a price to it. You're going to save, in all probability, city-based civilization.
00:40:42
Speaker
who And that, I said, I've had no criticism of that idea, but I've had no world leader step forward and say, I could do that. Well, maybe it has to view.
00:40:53
Speaker
So, Mike, basically I stop trying to describe the bicycle, just ride the damn thing. That makes a lot of sense. And now you see why it's no good talking to farmers, because they just keep thinking this is just about farming.
00:41:08
Speaker
No, it's not. It's about COVID. It's about everything. It's about biodiversity loss. I mean, we we live in a biosphere. that biosphere, living thin skin around the world.
00:41:23
Speaker
And it's got the exact percentage of oxygen we need to live. And it's got trace gases like carbon dioxide and others. All right, so we live in that.
00:41:34
Speaker
Now, that biosphere and that balance of gases that's sustaining humans and plants and everything today is coming from biodiversity.
00:41:44
Speaker
Plants, animals, microorganisms in the soil, fish, It's coming from biodiversity. Now, you can read almost any newspaper, almost anything today, and you will read that biodiversity globally is in free fall, is in free fall.
00:42:01
Speaker
And yet, we are spending trillions of dollars on space exploration, musk, defense, bigger and bigger weapons, bigger and bigger, more lethal weapons.
Real Change Beyond Practices
00:42:13
Speaker
We're spending millions of dollars.
00:42:15
Speaker
We are not spending one single dollar in the world looking at the cause of biodiversity loss. We are blaming it on livestock and fossil fuels.
00:42:27
Speaker
They are not causing it. It's the way policies are developed that's causing it. So we're prepared to spend trillions of dollars on things that will not save humans.
00:42:39
Speaker
And we're not prepared to spend $1 on looking at why is biodiversity loss occurring when you've got so many environmental organizations, so many government agencies, so many billions of dollars put into it. Why is it in free fall?
00:42:55
Speaker
You know, the questions I'm asking are very simple, but I never hear them on podcasts and Joe Rogan or any of these big podcasts. You can't get people to ask you hard, probing questions.
00:43:07
Speaker
To me, many podcasts sound like infomercials. Yeah, that's that's very true. And I fully agree with you on that. We have to step it up and we have to do what's necessary.
00:43:21
Speaker
But of this on the same time, there's a lot of young people from my generation that are also willing to be part of the change and to move forward and start businesses and contribute to that.
00:43:35
Speaker
My own but business is part of that. I also help other people ah start their own business in the regenerative space what is your best piece of advice for those people that are either just starting out or want to contribute to to be at cause of helping the planet improve and not be at effect of the dooms thinking and all these things what what is your best piece of advice for those people which are mostly our listeners
00:44:06
Speaker
yeah You know, they it's pleasing and and they are yeah there's no question there are many people, young people like that, who want to and want a better future. Now, they've got a couple of routes to go. One is the one they're going, of joining things like regenerative space, as you called it, regenerative space. So they can join that and start learning from any of the regenerative agricultural organizations.
00:44:35
Speaker
I'm told that there's between 600 and 700 of those now, and they all originated from myself and Bob Rodale, from two two men. ah Bob's not alive any longer, ah sadly. And I can tell you of of all those organizations, and they are talking mostly about regenerative agriculture, although now some are talking regenerative capitalism, regenerative tourism,
00:45:04
Speaker
You know, it's becoming a buzzword. But if you look at the, let's say, 600 at least that people could join that are talking about regenerative agriculture, do what I do.
00:45:15
Speaker
Look at the practices that they practice in food production. And looking at all 600 of them, I think I've found three practices that were not being done 5,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago, 2,000 years ago.
00:45:31
Speaker
three thousand years ago two thousand yearss ago I'm finding nothing new. Now, we've already had more than 20 civilizations fail with those agricultural practices.
00:45:42
Speaker
ah The new ones I've found, um Colin Seiss in Australia, planting an an annual grain-producing plant into a perennial swan is new.
00:45:56
Speaker
ah Irrigating with air is new because it wasn't possible until we had porous PVC piping is new. You see, you've got to really hunt to look for new practices.
00:46:07
Speaker
um Nearly all of them are planting trees, um hot water harvesting, swales. The whole Nabataean civilization was based on that.
00:46:18
Speaker
It failed. they They knew far more than we do today about that. We're just repeating it and calling it regenerative. It's not. So they can join that movement, and they'll have a good time, and they'll feel good, and they're doing good, and I'm not going to discourage them, but I'll say at the end of the day, you won't have helped out save humanity.
00:46:40
Speaker
You won't have helped save civilization. So the other alternative is they could look at something like the COP26 talk, look at this podcast, talk to me, And let's see if we can get some people who are prepared to be activists and say, look, this makes sense.
00:46:56
Speaker
Why don't we push for something like this to be done by some world leader? And if we do this, we're going have to work fast on it because I'm fading fast and most of the knowledge is going wrong.
00:47:09
Speaker
you know These days, when i ah buy a a thing at the shop like I did yesterday, and ah they give me a three-year guarantee on it, I said, thanks, that's a lifetime guarantee.
00:47:21
Speaker
You have good sense of humor. so So I only see these two alternatives. get Get into the movement, have a good time, do your best. and I'm going to criticize it. you'll You'll make slight improvements.
00:47:33
Speaker
But you represent about person or 2% of the 9 billion people in the world. Get real. We're only talking to the choir.
00:47:44
Speaker
Yeah, I understand that. But still, i'm I'm still, maybe this is my limiting belief and I need to change it, but I still think that the best way to make change is through through business.
00:47:56
Speaker
and true Because that's what always has changed the world. So why can we not use that as a tool for change? You can. Why does it have to come from above? Yeah. No, Matthew, you're absolutely right.
00:48:09
Speaker
What you've just described, all right, I call incremental change, and that is exactly how change occurs. And so it takes many, many years, and then it eventually takes place.
00:48:22
Speaker
And if you read some of the research, ah people like Sir Eric Ashby and how new knowledge moves into democratic society, looking at America and Britain, et cetera, if it's new thinking,
00:48:36
Speaker
And in what we're discussing today, there are two bits of totally new thinking to all humans. And what he discovered is it's new thinking. um It's to get it through institutions and get change to occur is a minimum of 100 to 200 years.
00:48:55
Speaker
It took 200 years just to get juice to stop scurvy. All right. so So you can keep doing that. That's incremental change, and I'm encouraging people. I'm saying, keep doing it.
00:49:07
Speaker
um In my life, we've been 70 years so far, and we've got another 100 and something to go with two new discoveries. So I'm i'm a little pessimistic about the future of that.
00:49:19
Speaker
So what I'm suggesting, again, is something new. I'm saying, all right, we've got a new situation. Why don't we just have one leader in the world Just say, I'm going to carry on as normal, but I'm going to do this on the side.
Youth Activism and Need for Action
00:49:35
Speaker
That's all.
00:49:35
Speaker
And as I said earlier, people can accept it or reject it. if If I'm wrong, it'll waste a little bit of money and a year of time. If I'm right, it'll save the situation. Well, yeah, very interested to see where that's going to go and who is interested in that. Well, it's gone three years so far and it's gone nowhere because not a single world leader opted to help in the COF 26 talk, I refer specifically to sir ah to Prince William.
00:50:07
Speaker
I can't get a reply from him in three years. I refer specifically to the Royal Society. like i haven't got a reply in three years.
00:50:18
Speaker
Why would you go to the Royal Society? They don't have that much call. they At that time, ah right the Royal Society was one of our leading ah scientific bodies in the world, and Prince William was heading the Royal Foundation, which was offering earthshot prizes, in other other words, offering big prizes for somebody to come up with a solution.
00:50:45
Speaker
and And I said, it doesn't matter how many prizes you have. It doesn't matter how many meetings. You can go to COP 100. Unless you address the cause of the problem, none of this matters.
00:50:58
Speaker
So then I talked about the cause of the problem and tried to approach them. when you take just Let's just take biodiversity. We talked about it a little earlier. And every citizen, head of corporations, factories, every citizen needs to listen to this.
00:51:16
Speaker
All right, the entire biosphere depends on biodiversity. Now, approximately three years ago, the two of the top scientific bodies, we talked earlier about what science is, all right, they convened a meeting in Washington.
00:51:32
Speaker
And those two bodies were the um in a Royal Society and the National Science Society, two of our most respected scientific bodies.
00:51:43
Speaker
So they called together this conference and they brought 50 of the world's experts to the conference. Every one of those experts was an expert with a PhD. don't think anybody got near the conference without an academic qualification of their expertise.
00:52:01
Speaker
And the subject of the conference, believe it or not, was to establish the economic value, the dollar value of biodiversity. What does every housewife think of that?
00:52:13
Speaker
What does every businessman think of that? That's like calling the most brilliant 50 fish in the ocean. They've all got Nobel Prizes together. You bring them together in the ocean to discuss the value of water, the dollar the value of water. What are they going to say?
00:52:29
Speaker
That's what we are doing, and we call it science. And the stuff I'm talking to you about, Matthew, is so simple. and You're shaking your head because in disbelief.
00:52:40
Speaker
So does almost any normal human. This is what's happened through institutions. So I encourage every listener to go and listen to your COP message and find that world leader that is willing to take it up and take on the challenge because I really hope it in it works.
00:52:59
Speaker
I got to understand something on a new level that I wasn't ready for. I think I probably had it in the back of my mind. But I became kind of frustrated with the political system to be like, and how NGOs work and how most organizations work to go, okay, that's not going to help us to reverse climate change or mitigate as we are now on.
00:53:23
Speaker
So I'm going to go full on in my business. and help people with my business to do good in regeneration, build better gardens, better farms, because there's also yeah it makes just complete financial sense. I just came back from a conference speaking at a real estate conference, why every real estate investor should focus on creating high quality landscape, not because it's good for biodiversity, not because it's good for it the soil and and the health of of the water, the the quality of the water, groundwater, all these benefits that you and me understand.
00:53:58
Speaker
I just told them why it's good for their investments because that's the only way they would start listening and it was very successful at that. And so I'm very open to the idea of of contributing to your cause and see where there's political opportunities but I just don't see it now looking at how the world leaders are doing so I'm just going to continue focusing on the business side and but I'm very much open to to to think wider than than I'm thinking today yeah if I could comment on that Matthew when you say yeah to focus on my cause I don't have a cause it's your cause I'm fighting it's your cause it's everybody else's cause I'll be gone in three or four years. It's not my cause any longer. Okay, I'm trying to fight a cause for every young person in the world.
00:54:51
Speaker
It's their cause, and they're not coming forward. um That's just fact. All right? Now, when you choose what you're doing, i'm doing the same.
00:55:02
Speaker
I'm doing this on one side. I'm trying to do what I can while I'm still alive to help the future of young people and future generations, all tribes, all nations, all people.
00:55:14
Speaker
right Now, meanwhile, I have to get on with my life and I have to stay sane. so I'm pretty well-designed.
00:55:21
Speaker
I do kind acts. I love to do just, I get such joy out of just doing a kind act to somebody every day. I've got one just after I put off from you, but I'm going to kind act to a guy who I hardly know. But i'll I know I'll get today's fun out of that.
00:55:42
Speaker
And I'll feel
Simplifying Solutions to Global Problems
00:55:43
Speaker
good. And yeah we can all only do that. Do the best we can. And those of us that are are doing good like that and We're doing it because it is the right thing and so on.
00:55:55
Speaker
I'm a realist. So while I'm doing that, I'm saying, yeah, but if if I fail on this other ah task of trying to help all the young people, the the good I'm doing is making me feel good, like rearranging the deck chairs on the taic Titanic.
00:56:12
Speaker
I feel good. They're in a better place. The landscape's better, but the ship is sinking. I'm a realist. Yeah, that's a shocking truth. And you don't believe that there's a slight chance that by doing all these acts of kindness, caring and spreading that love into the world rather than focusing on what's wrong with the world, which is what we definitely need. It's very confusing because we we kind of need to focus on that. But when you get into a spiral of negativity, it's very hard to be productive.
00:56:44
Speaker
Don't let me try and take what you said. ah do Do I not think there's good in doing all these little acts of kindness? Yes, I do. But you know I meant like, is that maybe not part of the solution on a global scale? Well, let me talk about that.
00:56:59
Speaker
On the global scale, if we go back to just talking about one religion, Christianity, millions and millions and millions of people who are Christians or Islamists or whatever, have been capable of little kinds of act acts of kindness every day. They've been doing that for 2000 years.
00:57:16
Speaker
But because of institutions, we've gone into war and conflict. So yes, we can do these little incidents. And no, there is not the slightest chance it's going to change things because we're not addressing the cause of the problem.
00:57:30
Speaker
And that I told you earlier, we discovered in 1983, is not bad people. It's the way every government develops policy that dictates laws, regulations, taxation, everything.
00:57:46
Speaker
that governs how the population lives. And so I'm not ever these days attacking everything that's bad in the world. I'm trying to say, no, it's irrelevant.
00:57:58
Speaker
I don't want to get into arguments with people and criticizing people. I don't criticize people. I only criticize institutions. And we knew all need to face what institutions are.
00:58:11
Speaker
They're not human, but we need them and we govern through them. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. So stop talking about what's bad in the world. the The news is full of it every damn night I listen.
00:58:23
Speaker
But there's never a word word about what's good that we could be doing. Just solve the problem. Address the cause. Once you mention that, it's people just shy away.
00:58:34
Speaker
Yeah, it seems like we want to make things more complex than they are, is what I'm getting out of it. Yeah, so we're going to start wrapping up the interview. So I very much appreciate your time and pushing your cause forward, which is not your cause, but it's our human cause.
00:58:53
Speaker
yeah So thank you very much for that, and thank you for your brutal honesty. That is very much appreciated. But I want to still end with the final question. How can every single individual contribute to that cause to make sure that a world leader steps up and takes this seriously?
00:59:12
Speaker
I've got a group of concerned mothers in India, Portugal, UK, various countries working with me to try to follow up on the COP26 talk. Most people, I think, if I was to urge anything now, I'd say just get better acquainted.
00:59:33
Speaker
If this talk interested you in whatever walk of life, and for God's sake, outside of just agriculture, if this interested you, I can send you a link to the COP26 talk so people can just look at this 12 minutes.
00:59:48
Speaker
All right? And then can you... We'll definitely put that in the show. We'll put the link in the show notes if if that's okay for And then the other thing that would help people is if they would like to read it is the memoir ah which describes the history of how it was that thousands of people working with me discovered the cause of the problem and how we could rectify it with this holistic management framework.
01:00:15
Speaker
So that's that's in the book Unsavory, and people can get that from Savory Institute. Tomorrow they can get it from Amazon. I'm working on an audio version.
01:00:26
Speaker
So a little later this year, there'll be an audio version. And then Jodie, my wife, is working on other channels to get it out to people. So right now, people could get that from Amazon or Savory Institute.
01:00:39
Speaker
And if they read that, though they'll have the history of it and how yeah this, what we've been talking about today, could never have been discovered by me or any individual in the world.
01:00:52
Speaker
How it could never have been discovered by any university, government, environmental organization in the world. How it could never have been discovered in any one country in the world, and how it could never be discovered at any time in history.
01:01:08
Speaker
The ability to find a solution to this problem arose in a little window of opportunity in a country called Rhodesia in dying empire, dying colonialism, war, civil war, exile, and forcing me to work with farsighted scientists in America, some 2,000 of them.
01:01:34
Speaker
And through that, we discovered a way forward and how institutions then banned all further training. So people can just read the history of that. Yeah, that's are interesting and that's a good way to start. Any other plans that you have to bring this forward? Are you thinking of putting, I'm just coming up with the, it's maybe completely off the hoop, but is there a way we could set up a petition that people can sign a white paper that we can all push this forward with enough signatures to go and talk to leaders, people that are getting into politics?
01:02:09
Speaker
Or do you see that it's not a good idea? I'm just thinking of so much. very much a proposition. the The concern mothers that I'm working with from about six countries I think they're in, um that will be the next stage. if If I cannot get Prince William to respond to me, if I cannot get the Royal Society to respond to me, because those are two bodies that could do this easily, and we could even pick a very neutral issue like national parks. It doesn't have to be agriculture.
01:02:40
Speaker
We could do that. ah But if that doesn't happen, the next step is if there are concerned ah mothers or children or young people, it's just a petition. And a petition by a million people, you know, that'll get attention.
01:02:57
Speaker
But that needs young activists to do it.
Expanding Outreach Beyond Agriculture
01:03:00
Speaker
yep So, you know, I can just keep you in touch on progress, if any progress is made with what I'm doing at the moment.
01:03:08
Speaker
um And it would be wonderful. If five or six or 10 young people looked at what this podcast and looked at what we've said and said, my God, we're going to make this happen, they could.
01:03:22
Speaker
mean, in the memoir, you'll see how but when a whole ah country didn't want something to happen, were ignorant about it, the government agencies didn't want to happen.
01:03:33
Speaker
I brought it in about in about a month by just one young, determined man being determined to bring it about. If anybody's determined, that's all that's needed.
01:03:44
Speaker
did But so far, as you know, most of us get confused and think it's complicated. and And we all get caught up in that stuff. Yeah, no, I agree. So I very much want to contribute to that when there's already existing organizations that are or ready to um start that petition so that we don't have to wait for the other organizations or institutes to step up.
01:04:08
Speaker
I very much want to contribute to that. So I think we should talk more offline on how to set that up. And also for the listeners, if you feel like this is something you want to be part of, want to contribute to, ah reach out to me, reach out to Alan. is there Is there a way that people can get in touch with you if they want to be part of this course? Yeah, I'm you know independent of these days and people can contact me um through a bit email.
01:04:37
Speaker
yeah And what is your email? So we can put that in the show notes too. It's just lowercase, Alan Savory. Just one word,.public at gmail.com.
01:04:49
Speaker
So, Alan, say read.public at gmail.com. Okay, get ready to have your inbox flooded. Well, it does, and I just attend to what matters.
01:05:03
Speaker
i Of course, but that's ah how we want to bring this forward. All right, Alan, thank you very much for your ah for coming on to the show here. Any final words before ah we completely end it here? Well, ah as we were talking these final words, i was thinking of other things your listeners or you might do.
01:05:23
Speaker
And I i've realized that you know social media is the thing today. I'm ah too old for most of it. But I've realized that podcasts have a very big impact. Talks and speeches don't. i I give very few of them today.
01:05:40
Speaker
But your listeners and yourself mo may know of other podcasters outside of agriculture and just suggest an interview. because This is way beyond agriculture. is about all of civilization we're talking about.
01:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, I actually have an idea of how I could get you onto a bunch of podcasts because I'm part of a whole network of podcasters. So yeah, we can talk about that offline right now too, if that's okay.
01:06:10
Speaker
All right. All right. Thank you very much, Alan. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time.