Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to the Policy Vis podcast. I'm your host, John Schwabisch. I'm here with two of my friends from the Mathematica Policy Research Institute, Adam Coyne and Jennifer Devallance. Adam, Jennifer, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thanks for coming on. I'm interested in chatting with you about the challenges and struggles and successes you've had communicating economic and social policy research to sort of your traditional audience and maybe even to a wider audience.
Speaker: Because many of my listeners may not be familiar with Mathematica, I was hoping that you might each introduce yourselves and talk a little bit about what Mathematica does. So Jennifer, why don't you kick us off? Sure. My name is Jennifer Devallance, and I am the Director of Public Affairs at Mathematica. And Mathematica has actually been around for quite some time, more than 40 years, doing policy and program evaluation, data collection and research.
Speaker: largely on health and human services issues. So we look a lot at all things health care, improving care, education issues, employment issues. And we're really focused on bringing our clients and policy makers high quality objective information that can improve public well -being. Great. And Adam, what's your role at the Emeth echo? Sure.
Speaker: I am Mathematica's Chief of Staff and Senior Vice President for Communications. And I work with Jennifer and a team of actually more than 50 communications professionals to really ensure that the right people get the right information at the right time. As Jennifer said, we are really committed to objective evidence -based standards.
Speaker: and superior data, but we're also committed to collaboration. And, you know, being good partners means making sure that we're working with all the right folks to help improve public well -being. So before we dive into the sort of challenges and struggles you've had communicating your work or successes, probably better term, what is the team that you've tried to build there to create the different
Speaker: So obviously you have a large research staff that's doing the sort of economic, social research, the sort of things that I do over here. But what are the sort of communication team skills that you've pulled together? Sure. Maybe I'll start with this, Jennifer, and you can chime in if you have some other thoughts.
Speaker: We really have a multidisciplinary team of program staff here. And I think the same is true with our approach to building a communications department and a communications team. So our team of 50 plus people involves experts in strategic dissemination. That's planning, implementation, media relations, social media, all of that external communications that folks think about.
Speaker: But we also have experts in government relations. We have experts in graphic design and data visualization. We have a large editing team. We have a large production team. So, in essence, we have a group that sort of deals with communications from soup to nuts. Everything from conceiving, you know, our strategic goals and how to implement them and the wide variety of folks it takes to do that effectively for ourselves, our partners, and our clients.
Speaker: And what's the, just sort of get a sense of scope, what's the ratio between the research staff and the communication staff? How many? Yeah. We're about 5 % of the company. A little less. We are a small but mighty team. The small and mighty powerful communications team. So what's the, what sort of, have you had to make some workflow adjustments to
Speaker: have 5 % of the organization manage and output all the research that's coming out other than workflow adjustments in terms of what responsibilities and skills a research staff has had to, have they had to add skills, or have they had to wait to set things out the door? What are those sorts of adjustments like?
Speaker: Well, the key for us has been planning. We like to say plan your work and work your plan. So when we first conceive of a data visualization concept, we try to do it far enough in advance so that folks who have plates that are already quite full can plan for it. And then we play to the team member's strengths. So we really try to focus the researchers on, you know, are we getting the numbers right? Are we,
Speaker: Making sure that there are no misperceptions that were inadvertently conveying. We're maximizing the programmers times so that everybody has a strong sense of when things are coming down the pike and when we'll really need their, their help and assistance. Yeah, if I had to add to what Jennifer said, you know, I think.
Speaker: There are two big changes that have happened over, maybe particularly the last five years, because much of communication hasn't changed. Folks understand what goes into producing a report, for example. But what's different is a combination of things that are new. So what goes into a report now, people expect a lot more graphics, a lot more visuals, those kinds of things.
Speaker: And it's making sure to build in time into your workflow for that. But the other thing is really just the explosion of what I'll call real -time communications. This was historically a challenge with researchers. You get a call from the New York Times, and they'd be like, oh, I'm busy. Can we talk to them tomorrow? And the answer was, no, the paper will be out tomorrow. And now it's become even more immediate.
Speaker: Oh, I saw this blog and I want to comment on it. I'm going to get to that in a couple of days. And the answer is if you want to comment on it, you need to get to that in a couple of minutes. And are you finding that the researchers are responsive to that? As a large group, no. We're finding pioneers who get it and are paving the way for others, I think. Right. Yeah, there always seems to be a
Speaker: I have the same experience at the Urban Institute and other organizations that there seems to be a core group of people who are really interested in changing the way or tapping into these new forms of communication. Can you talk a little bit about maybe the other struggles you've had with either if it's projects coming in or products going out?
Speaker: What researchers are, what are they yelling at you about the things that they want to do versus the capacity constraints of moving all that, all that research out the door through, you know, a group of 50 or so people? Well, I think the biggest opportunity for communications collaborating with the researchers is to help them put their findings in a context and a narrative.
Speaker: that non -technical audiences interested and educated but not super -technical folks find relevant and are interested in and are willing to dive a little deeper and to help them figure out why it matters and why they should care and identify ways that they can apply it to policy, program, and practice. That can be tough because after working on a research project for several years,
Speaker: You know, they want to talk about everything. So, of course, it's important to put it in a policy relevant context, but also in a way that's brief that isn't taxing and that provides a suite of opportunities targeted to the audience so that there's really no wrong door to the information. And as you're working through that, so I like this idea of working through the process. So if you're working through this process, are you
Speaker: Do you start right away? At the very beginning, a project comes in and a researcher, a group of researchers says, we're going to work on this particular topic. Do you start right away at the very beginning of that project and say, okay, this is the process we're going to go through and these are the products that we want to publish at the end of the six months or the end of the year?
Speaker: In a perfect world, yes. That is utopia. In the real world, not as much. What's interesting, John, is I'm seeing a real trend towards that. What's happening now, both from a lot of our clients, a lot of government agencies are embedding strategic communications and dissemination in the RFP.
Speaker: So, it's actually becoming a part of the planning from the beginning, which is very, very useful, and I think makes both sides of the research and the dissemination much more integrated and frankly much more effective. Right. And we're also seeing, I think, more clients and more RFPs come out that are asking for communication throughout the lifecycle of the project.
Speaker: I think folks are starting to see that when you have a big project, you shouldn't just talk about it at the very end. You can engage with stakeholders throughout the project and really build interest and awareness of the work you're doing. Right. And so in that change in the way on the demand side, are you finding that the research staff is responding to that? So obviously if you want to get a grant and the grant maker says you need to do
Speaker: an infographic and an interactive visualization. If they want the grant, they're going to go ahead and do that. But are you finding that the researchers are more amenable to those sorts of things when those aspects of the ask are part of the grant request? Most definitely. And I would actually extend that to Jennifer and I have a funny maxim that to know us is to love us.
Speaker: And I find actually, you know, most researchers who start working with communications just end up wanting to work more with communications. Certainly when it's a requirement, you know, and they have to, they do it. But I think what they find is, you know, we can really help them get the word out and we can help them accomplish their goals.
Speaker: Well, and I also think it's really incumbent on any communications team to build trust with their research team to work very hard and very collaboratively to make sure that we're not doing violence to the evidence. Nobody inadvertently makes the numbers say something they really don't. And once you build that trust, and as Adam says, demonstrate that you can make more people aware of these important findings
Speaker: Then the researchers are much more willing and enthusiastic about partnering moving forward. Right. So, as this what's called a snowball fact, as things start to pick up and there's more grant makers are requesting more of a digital presence or a communication strategy and more researchers turn to respond to that.
Speaker: and want those things and they end up loving you, Adam, and they want to work more with you. How do you sort of balance the greater demand from the researchers and the staff that you have there in terms of managing all the different requests? You know, I think there are two aspects to that. One, certainly prioritization and focusing on the most important
Speaker: and the most urgent. But the other thing is what I call, you know, an evolving set of responsibilities. You know, our communications department has certainly grown in the last few years. But, you know, at least half of the folks that are here today were here five years ago. And I would be willing to say that of that 25 odd, those 25 people, 80 % of their job is different.
Speaker: So, you know, in a sense, we're trying to be mindful of as we take on new responsibilities and new activities, what are the things that no longer make sense? What are the things that we can give up? A great example of that, you know, is we actually do less media relations than we did in the past, you know, because we've become much more of a direct content producer and producer.
Speaker: So the intermediary isn't playing the same role that it once was. That doesn't mean we still don't do media relations, but the balance has shifted, for example. And do you see that trend? I totally agree with you. I think Brookings, Mathematica, Pew, Urban, we all have our own
Speaker: You know, everybody has their own blog, they have their own digital presence, be it interactive visualizations or static visualizations. Do you see that continuing or what does that mean for ultimately for the relationship between, you know, this sort of think tank nonprofit sector and the media sector? Well, I think it certainly will continue. And in fact, I think it will increase and broaden. And we're seeing clients that are asking for more direct stakeholder outreach
Speaker: in the form of social media, in the form of webinar engagement directly with program providers and administrators. And they're not, you know, they're shying, moving away from going through these gatekeepers that folks traditionally had to go through. And again, that doesn't mean that the relationship between folks like our organization and others and the media is diminished.
Speaker: it just is more layered. And I think that at the same time, the relationship with policymakers becomes stronger because there is an opportunity to present them with succinct policy relevant information that they can use right away to help improve programs. Right. Interesting.
Speaker: I was going to say, the other thing I just add to that, John, is I agree with everything Jennifer said, but the gatekeepers still rule. No matter how successfully, our most successful direct outreach is a drop in the bucket compared to traffic to a Washington Post or a box or a New York Times. Sure, sure.
Speaker: So that leads me to my next question of how do you measure success? You have, I mean, obviously, you know, you have a research project and if the funders happy, that's one measure of success. But now we sort of talking about this greater, broader outreach. Do you, are you, do you have certain measures of success that you, that you, that you use as your barometers?
Speaker: Well, certainly in communications, it's always tricky because you want to measure outcomes rather than just output. Some of the traditional measures that the industry has used still are important and relevant media impressions, you know, any host of website metrics, click throughs and whatnot.
Speaker: But we also really pay attention to, hey, did somebody get invited to testify as a result of this outreach? How many people are attending our webinars and what types of folks? Are they policymakers? We take a look at how many program administrators across the United States are participating. So while we still use the kind of
Speaker: meat and potatoes of measurement. In terms of communications, we also extend that into other more outcomes -based measures as well. Right. And we have a whole different set of tools at our disposal now, which is, you know, far more useful. You know, while, you know, dissemination has always been about two -way communication, now we can track it in a whole different way. So we'll understand, you know,
Speaker: who's opening an email or who's paying attention to different kinds of things. You know, we can see engagement on our social media channels. We can find where visitors to our website are coming from, you know, so we can track those kind of metrics. And then we can also actually use them to adapt and adjust our communication strategies to make sure we're achieving our goals.
Speaker: We have, let's say, a new foundation out there, new research institute wants to start up. Here we are back in the utopia world. What would your first, what would your recommendation be as a group starts to try to build out a successful communication strategy? Well, first and foremost, always know your audience. Who do you want to target? What are their information consumption habits?
Speaker: and how do you create multiple pathways so that you can design products that reach and engage them and drive them to the information you're hoping they will use and implement in their activities. But it's also, you know, getting back to that multidisciplinary team, it's important to have folks from not only with various skill sets on your communications team, but also with a variety of perspectives.
Speaker: So that someone can say, hey, look, our policymakers aren't going to have time to read much more than a two pager. Whereas, you know, maybe we might want to engage this program audience with some interactive dashboard approaches. So folks who understand the perspectives and the information consumption habits of that target audience that you're shooting for is really important.
Speaker: The other thing that I would add to what Jennifer said is be very clear on what your goals are and what you're trying to accomplish because you always want to circle back to that. And the second thing that I would add to the new utopian organization starting out is don't be afraid to start small and build. Google didn't start out saying we want to become the dominant search engine on the web.
Speaker: You know eBay didn't start out to you know become this huge online marketplace It's okay to you know start out small You know prove the value that you add and grow over time, right? Really really interesting stuff. Well, it sounds like a lot of the sort of folks in our in our Sector are struggling with some of these similar issues. So I appreciate you both coming on. It's been a really nice conversation So thanks Adam Jennifer both come on the show
Speaker: Thank you. Thank you very much, Sean. And thanks everyone for listening. This has been the policy of this podcast. I will see you next week.
