Transcript
Speaker: The aspects of kink that are judged partially are entirely cultural. That. patriarchy that mis misogyny tends to bleed into.
Speaker: our sexuality, I don't think we are Born. in any way shape or form with a judgment about anything that is consensually kinky What kinky people do is take those judgments Put them upside down.
Speaker: contain them in a consensual package, and play with them to kind of say, F you. to all those cultural judgments.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to Power Beyond Pride, a weekly queer change -making podcast bringing you voices and ideas from across our fierce and fabulous spectrum to transform our world. I'm Shane Lucas, lifelong harm reductionist and bodily autonomy activist. owner of a great idea and runner -up to the 2002 Mr. Boston lesson. And I'm Hunter. I'm three raccoons in a trench coat, and I'm incredibly feral almost all the time. Today, we are stepping into a space that too many people whisper about but don't fully understand.
Speaker: Identity, intimacy and power of living unapologetically is the theme for today. Our guest is a trailblazer educator, author, and a voice in the LGBTQ community for over five plus decades.
Speaker: From San Francisco to the global stage, he has dedicated his life to HIV and STI prevention, sexual health education, and dismantling shame and desire. Please help me welcome the iconic and distinguished and insightful, Race Bannon.
Speaker: Welcome, Wraith. Thank you for having me I am honored. I think you're also distinguished and insightful. So I love this. i'm I'm all about it. And I can't help, but I'm just going to dig right into the thing that I want to know is because recently you had the opportunity to host a panel.
Speaker: after the movie Pelion. which for those who may not be familiar with. is a film talking about a BDSM, like... Situationship? And it's a pretty...
Speaker: Graphic. but beautifully told story. That has like a scars guard in it. it's off But you had a chance to talk with all these people on it. And I asked somebody who.
Speaker: has been a voice, as Hunter shared, about so many people in the community for so many decades. Was it, were you starstruck? Were you having fun? I was having fun. Yeah, A24, who I believe is the distributor of the film.
Speaker: asked me to do it. Five days before the premiere in San Francisco? Thanks. And I had not seen the film yet. So they sent me a screener copy and then.
Speaker: They sent me a message and said, so. Would you like to have dinner with with Harry Melling and and Harry Leighton before the Q and &A? I went, yes. That's wild. So my partner and I got to have dinner with them and They are two of the most lovely people, as were everybody from A24.
Speaker: that was was on hand. And then after the film, we had a really great. Q and &A and it's up available. online if anybody wants to see it on on our podcast. and They.
Speaker: They were transparent and they were very honest. And I think one of the things I loved about the film. And both of them is they realized it wasn't. A nice, smooth. even Love story. perfect ending, blah blah blah.
Speaker: Movie. They know it sparks conversations. and opinions. And I think. If that movie has one. Power?
Speaker: it's that it is sparking conversations that if it was The perfectly nice little Hollywood happy movie. it wouldn't spark. I love that because it actually echoes a lot about your own history because you spent decades, right, educating on HIV and STIs. demonstrating how to shape your relationship with your identity, especially around sexuality and self -expression. Like you've talked about so many of the themes that are present in the movie. around navigating like it's about a young person who's really navigating a different type of being.
Speaker: in a relationship with another person. And so not just not really insecure about their gayness, but really insecure about their own relationship and dynamics, power dynamics and BDSM and all of that. And I'm just absolutely, I understand why they tapped you for this, Al. Because I think, again, you've spoken so much about many of these themes. I'd love to hear a little bit about you like what you think your earliest moments in your life were when you realized that you were you were going to be on a path.
Speaker: That was a little bit different. from everybody else. Because I think that's such a key theme in this film. It's how this person really recognizes. They're on a different path. No, I'm born and raised in Chicago.
Speaker: And I've known I was gay for a very long time. And when I was 17, I walked into... My first gay bar. underage i looked much older they didn't card much back then And the second bar I walked into was the Gold Coast in Chicago, which was...
Speaker: An iconic, world -famous... Gay Men's Leather Bar. And the moment I walked in, for whatever reason... I knew I was home. And I've said this before elsewhere that.
Speaker: Part of the reason that I felt so at home. was the men there were so... Kind. And I know that doesn't always go together with the hardcore kind of leather thing, but But they were so...
Speaker: Kind. And they knew I was young. They didn't ever take advantage of it. They knew I was interested in this kind of sexuality and identity and community.
Speaker: And they sort of gently introduced me to it. but without any pressure. and It. could not have been more magical. Also, across the street was the world -famous Baton.
Speaker: Drag show lounge. And so between Leatherman. and drag queens They were. the kindest people to me from the very beginning. And so I have the utmost respect, obviously, for my own leather community. but have the utmost respect for the drag community because they were also extremely kind to me.
Speaker: I think that really summarizes queer life in general between the Leatherman and the drag queens. So much of that. All the same block. Like, let's be real. How much of a party is that? I went with my best life.
Speaker: Oh my gosh. So. As we're talking about... This... topic of leather and of drag queens and we're really like I can imagine the amount of stigma going into something like that.
Speaker: And just the taboo of it. At 17.
Speaker: And I know that you had mentioned that we're approaching the, I think it's the 45th anniversary. Of, yeah. of beer. I want to say HIV epidemic.
Speaker: It's epidemic. and But yeah, how was that? What was that experience like for you with... Coming of age. And.
Speaker: The intersection of that with. the epidemic. So. I'm old enough. I'm approaching 72, so I'm old enough to have been around when... Most gay life was very clandestine, was behind walls, not windows.
Speaker: It was down alleys with a light bulb above the door. It was when police raids were still happening. in bars It was a very, very different time to come out.
Speaker: And I think the fact that I encountered people like Leatherman. and Leatherwomen. and drag queens. And. the rebels of the queer spectrum.
Speaker: Help me. come out in a way That. felt authentic to me without trying to conform to anything. outside. And so in the 70s when I came out, obviously HIV was not a thing yet.
Speaker: Many years later, I moved to Los Angeles and I knew the very first HIV positive case. I don't believe it was even labeled HIV yet. Just somebody who was getting very, very sick. And.
Speaker: I jumped on the safer sex nonprofit volunteer bandwagon rather quickly. And because I was a Leatherman. And kinky.
Speaker: And I was pretty good at sex education around that. A lot of HIV educators came to me and said, you know how to do all this stuff without insertive sex. And we're not sure how. to address this and can you help us with safer sex materials, safer sex education. things like that.
Speaker: And so... My leather life, my kink life. my radical sexuality. helped me enter the world of HIV prevention and STI prevention and treatment.
Speaker: in a way that was far more informed because I knew all the alternative ways already. Because that's how... can keep people know how to play. There are lots of things you can do. besides traditional insertive sex.
Speaker: And. So that positioned me very early on. Also, ah some years later, my partner. Was positive. I am positive too, by the way. I'm very open about that.
Speaker: Very healthy. and But my first partner died. And so I not only had... the experience of being a safer sex educator and an activist around that.
Speaker: but I had the personal experience of dealing with somebody who got sick and died. And... Put those together and there's not much more motivating for you to do the work.
Speaker: that needed to be done at the time. Thank you for sharing that. it's That's, again, really powerful. I know the He impacted. that hiv and aids has had on our community is just so substantive and As you said, we're coming up to a particular milestone since the advent of introducing the idea of a Zopsy grid existed prior to that. is i days and all of that.
Speaker: But one thing I think about as as as our community sees individuals who are living with HIV age. It's one of the interesting conversations I feel like I have also as um as ah as a Gen Xer who's aging.
Speaker: And I'm really thinking a lot about what it means to look at younger generations and how they're coming into a conversation about identity. that we didn't get to enjoy the same. And that identity for us is oftentimes includes the conversations around HIV. and SDIs. like it's such ah It's such a ah cornerstone to the way many of us came around to it.
Speaker: But now younger generations are coming to conversations around size. And like, have you heard side the term side? So side is non -penetrative sex and like these. I'm curious what your thoughts are about like these.
Speaker: Like a younger generation is kind of exploring. kind of non -insertive sex in a very different way than I think my generation. which just, you know, begrudgingly or, you know, use condoms -ish.
Speaker: And then begrudgingly kind of wanted to get rid of it. And now you have a younger generation looking at it very differently. So I'm curious from your point of view. How are you seeing that transition? And what is that what do what do you think that is stemming from?
Speaker: First of all, I am not one of those. old. Gay guys. that. looks at younger people and said, well, we had to use condoms for all those years, but now you get alternative ways to be safer.
Speaker: and judges it My attitude is all of the work we did. Those of us who are older and we're in that movement. was to allow the next generations to have the sexual life and the sexual identity that they wanted to have. So I tell them, rock on, be yourself, explore.
Speaker: Here's the tools. Here's prep. Here's doxy pep. Here's ways to play. Here's being a side, not insertive. There's all kinds of things. that you can do. And. I really hope we don't judge any of it.
Speaker: I know some people, for example, when they hear side and it's explained what it is. They kind of rolled their eyes. Well, that's not sex. And I said, but anything you decide to. is sex is sex. Anything. And so.
Speaker: I am of the opinion that younger people have an opportunity to explore in ways that they never, ever could in my generation. Certainly not my generation during the HIV pandemic.
Speaker: Bye. I will never judge it. And I celebrate it. And I want them to have the tools and the information. and the education. And the community? and somebody to talk to. and mentors and all of that.
Speaker: but I want them to go off on their own path and they will probably have. descriptions for their identities and their sexualities and their activities. 5, 10, 15 years from now.
Speaker: that we don't have today So I... I tell younger people rock on. Go for it. I was a very big national proponent. of prep early on. The amount of hate email I got was.
Speaker: Outrageous? But... you know. How would that? i I knew I saw the science. I've been a proponent of doxy pep. I know that could be somewhat controversial as well. but I've seen the science and I'm a very science data -driven person.
Speaker: and I believe you give people the information. And then you allow them to decide and you give them the space to decide what they want to do with that information. And something like that is... It's so gatekept anyways, especially for marginalized groups of having all the information available to you to make your own informed decision. This has historically been.
Speaker: a taboo concept, especially for marginalized communities, whether it's through HIV prevention. or if it's access to different means of birth control.
Speaker: or even just... medical procedures in general. We've seen this on historic levels. So thank you for... mentioning that. We're going to go ahead and take a short break and we are just getting started. So when we come back, we'll be discussing kink. Destigmatizing sex.
Speaker: and how to live out loud and proud. So please stay tuned to this episode of Power Beyond Pride.
Speaker: Welcome back to Power Beyond Pride. I am Shane Lucas here with my own... our phenomenal co -host, Hunter. And if you're just joining us, we are here with Ray Spannon, activist, educator, someone who's been shaping conversations around sexual health and community care.
Speaker: for decades. And during the break, we were really talking about the Pillion movie. It's hard not to talk about it right now because it's just so... fascinating in some ways, because it really does take a lot of courage to talk about kink and and leather in a very constructive way.
Speaker: I think we've seen it in non -constructive ways. Cue that movie with Rosie O'Donnell years ago. I don't know if y 'all remember seeing that one, but it was pretty, pretty ham -handed. like I would love for for you, Ray, to share a little bit, of if you could explain kind of what kink is to you.
Speaker: If you could. give a definition for people to kind of understand For the people in the back, like, what? How do you define it? Sure. And I have a story about Exit to Eden later if you want. oh that's the movie There you go.
Speaker: So. kink For me. is about. Exploring. any aspect of sexuality i want And for me personally, usually laced with a little bit of power exchange.
Speaker: And I say that only because that's what works for me. Now we're working on a documentary project right now. And one of the things we did during the documentary project was we asked. All 300 people that we have interviewed. Yes, we have interviewed 300 people.
Speaker: What is kink to you? And not a single... One of the 300 people defined it the same. way I think kink is this huge umbrella bucket term.
Speaker: into which we throw almost every type of adventure sexuality. that isn't missionary position sex that's heterosexual for the purpose of procreation I mean that's just I remember years ago, I was having lunch with ah with an analyst out of... UCLA.
Speaker: and very famous sexuality researcher, Robert Stoller. And he's written many books and did a lot of. research around kink. And his... belief was that everyone was kinky.
Speaker: Everyone. because it really kind of depended on how you defined kink. So. Somebody who. you know, a husband who likes to suck his wife's toes or two partners that. That.
Speaker: like to do do really heavy, rough massage. Or whatever you could... All sorts of stuff. It's all kinky. all the way up to and including dungeon stuff and extremely fetishy stuff and extremely edgy stuff. So.
Speaker: For me, it always has a little bit of power exchange in there, even if there isn't a really Rigid. Power dynamic. But I am fully aware. that someone else is going to define kink. and entirely differently than I do.
Speaker: Take somebody who is A rubber fetishist. And they just like to wear rubber. They think it's sexy. They think they look good in it. There may be no power exchange whatsoever in any of that.
Speaker: It's really kinky So I think kink is in the eye of the beholder. So as you're talking about this, it's also making me think of, and ah I have my opinions about this individual, but as an author.
Speaker: Michelle Foucault. I... yeah I mean, yeah as we're talking about it, I'm like. Michelle Foucault really comes to mind with a lot of these things. and ah had it made it a cornerstone to talk about.
Speaker: the intersections of... of taboo and of sexuality and sexualization. And. I'm so interested. to get your opinion of why do you think certain, like, why do you think these topics are, one, seen as so taboo for something that is folks don't understand it?
Speaker: Boom. Why do we have such a negative idea? Of kink. And also... Why is it so sensationalized? Are those two things connected?
Speaker: Ooh, I think. The aspects of kink that are judged harshly. are entirely cultural. I think there are religious.
Speaker: aspects that contribute to that. cultural Judgment? I think there are. simply different societies that have blended and One sees it as more.
Speaker: Edgy than another? I think we live in a very misogynistic. culture mostly across the world. And that. patriarchy that misogyny tends to bleed in into our sexuality and we sometimes judge things based on that kind of Like it's a way way of thinking.
Speaker: And so. I don't think we are. born. in any way, shape or form with a judging about anything that is consensually kinky. Let me. Put that in front.
Speaker: I think we are cult, we are culturated. to believe that something is wrong. And therefore. What kinky people do is take those judgments. Put them upside down.
Speaker: contain them in a consensual Package. and play with them to kind of say, F you. to all those cultural judgments. I really honestly believe that's where a lot of cake comes from.
Speaker: Hearing you say that, it is hard not to draw the parallel to political change, right? I mean, aren't we kind of hearing some of the same things where really change -making is that act of, again, playing with power, challenging power?
Speaker: in some cases, deflating power. Because sometimes kink can be a way to reorient roles that people are exploring or being or you know being around. and re renaming them, renegotiating.
Speaker: different ways So to me, there is a lot of relationship in queerness. To kink. to activism in its own way, because it's it's in some ways kink is.
Speaker: By pressing against that norm, isn't it saying like the norm? is a lot shallower than you think it is. Because once you start getting under that surface and you start scratching against it, it's something else. And to me, that's...
Speaker: That's really powerful because I think it's also why it's so titillating. Like, I think that's why people are simultaneously, it's that intimacy is deflating. So I, again, I would love to hear, as you think about your own.
Speaker: path to liberation activism that you've engaged in race. Like, I would love to hear a little bit more about... How like how are you processing or how have you processed? like your own feelings of shame and fear and those challenges in going through that. Like, I think not everybody's able to do that.
Speaker: Easily? And I think it'd be great to hear. And he. any Any conflicts or? tips or ways that you can suggest. for people to think about their own relationship to these these topics.
Speaker: Regarding shame, I think the baseline of... Me having been raised. Pretty rigid Roman Catholic. and gone to eight years of Catholic school. This is where I make the joke about being on your knees in the dark. notes.
Speaker: And go with guilt. and And anyone who knows Catholicism know it's laden with guilt. Bye. I was... in a catechism class when I was very young. It was second grade, I think.
Speaker: And it was taught by a nun, a nun I happen to like very much. She was very kind to me. And I remember saying to her, Sister, whatever her name was, I can't remember.
Speaker: Why can't you be a priest? And I remember to this day, the look of consternation on her face as she wrestled with that answer and said, oh, well, it's just not the will of God. And I said, sister, that makes no. sense at all because i knew what a wonderful person she was and she and the other nuns did so much work and the Priest, frankly, did.
Speaker: A fraction of what they did, in my opinion. And so I was immediately. A feminist at seven or eight years of age. and That was also my crisis of faith.
Speaker: And at that point, I went through the motions until I was about 13 and my dad let me stop going to church. I went through the motions. But I knew what they were telling me was wrong, including the shame -based stuff.
Speaker: So... And admittedly, I didn't know that my... my Gay urges were okay fully until I was about 16. maybe 15, 16. Bye.
Speaker: That crisis of faith and me realizing that what this. institution was telling me and trying to shame me for sexuality, sex outside of marriage, homosexuality, not tithing to the church. I could go through the whole thing.
Speaker: And. So... I've... I felt lucky in that moment, in hindsight, and when I look back on it. Because I think that was the moment when. A lot of shame. disappeared from me.
Speaker: Not all of it. but a lot of it did. But the problem is many people come from extremely religious backgrounds, culturally rigid, misogynistic. cultures.
Speaker: hierarchical in other ways. We could. Entire groups of people have different views of what sex is about and what it's for. So shame can come from anywhere.
Speaker: But i I was very lucky early on. When I encountered... people in the queer community, gay men, mostly back then i use the term queer because i think it's a great big bucket to put everybody into yeah
Speaker: But I encountered a lot of people. who had no Shame about who. they are and what. They did. That was mainstream gay men and lesbians. That was kinky gay men and lesbians. That was sexual adventurers of different kind. That was drag queens and trans people. That was all the people. Bat.
Speaker: really said, this is who I am. This is what I do. And. Screw society if they don't like it. So, I was lucky. But I'm fully aware that an awful lot of people are not so lucky. So I try to...
Speaker: Be kind and gentle to the people that didn't have that advantage. because we are in a shame. Layden. cultured. And now with the rise of the right wing and the rise of. authoritarianism. We could go there.
Speaker: They are trying to use shame. to control us. Shame for being different. Shame for not being white. Shame for not being heterosexual. I could go through the whole list. That's all shame based in some form or another. It's entirely effed up.
Speaker: but It is a means of control. And if one... Wee! recognizes that external control that's being Promulgated on you. If you process it correctly, you realize it's... All completely.
Speaker: Wrong. And you can live the life you want to live. The other thing I will say is that I also have benefited from... consciously choosing. dense urban areas where a lot of queer people and radicals and different kinds of people, different colors, different different walks of life, different cultures resided.
Speaker: And that also makes your shame go away because you see so many different kinds of people. And you realize it's all good. But if I was being raised in a little town that was all white and all...
Speaker: Radically. right? Christian, et cetera. I would probably have a different frame to look at my shame. through. And it would be much harder to ah address address. So I try to be kind and open.
Speaker: understanding that not everybody had the luck I did. But I try to. urge people to be their authentic selves as much as possible i also urge people as much as possible to put themselves in the environments that allow them to be fully themselves as much as possible which is not always Easy to do.
Speaker: But if possible find your people find your community What? Usually community tends to soften the shame. And when you don't have community to attach yourself to. Shamekin. Bester.
Speaker: i'm I'm giving like a, yes, this is my applause. My applause. Yeah. Is this right? I think it's this. I think it's this. Yes, this is my applause. There's that and then also a little snaps. Little snaps. Two snaps up.
Speaker: yes And around. Yeah. Oh my gosh. As a fellow Catholic school survivor, I... I can commiserate with you on a lot of those feelings, especially like when you experience.
Speaker: Unfounded shame. from an early age where like that is the thing that's reinforced to you is guilt and shame. For things that you're just like, I don't even know what this is. There's something remarkably difficult about navigating around that.
Speaker: As you gain agency. if we're if we're so privileged to have that opportunity. to gain agency and to question the status quo of why do we have those means of shame.
Speaker: I was actually asked to not come back to my Catholic school. it's but but but Yeah, that's a whole story. And so much of it depends on Your immediate familial and social circle environment. I was blessed with a father.
Speaker: who was a walking saint. And at 13 years of age, he sat me down and said, son, you're a man now. Do you want to keep going to church? And I said, no. And he never questioned it.
Speaker: Wow. This was a staunch Roman Catholic Irish He was in the seminary until two months before his vows and he decided to join the Marines. That's how Catholic he was.
Speaker: Wow. He gave me the agency at 13 years of age to make my own decision. And that's sheer dumb luck that I had him as a father. No kidding. Yeah. Like, I think they're stepping stones. to how we are the stepping stones to the foundation of who we are. And that's definitely something to...
Speaker: That's something to be said for that moment, to be given. I mean essentially you're You're given consent. You're given the the consent you needed. to invite yourself into your own world.
Speaker: yeah So that's a very beautiful gift to be given by your father. ah So yeah, as we're talking about stories, as you're a published author, what responsibilities come with being a voice to communities or of communities? that are often untold? And what stories or messages have been the most important for you to put out into the world?
Speaker: I think the responsibility of a writer Or a speaker? or a community leader. Anybody with any form of messaging. Podcasters. is to tell the truth as they see it.
Speaker: always with the caveat that they probably don't know everything. So. I am really careful when I write. Speak. lead organizations that...
Speaker: I say this is the truth as I see it. but I'm fully aware. That. There are other perspectives and I don't. No. Everything I've evolved.
Speaker: Over time, I was probably far. less accepting of many different kinds of people when I was younger. And over time, because I have a pretty open mind. I accepted a wider range of people into my inner circle and and sort of wider circle.
Speaker: that I might not have when I was younger. And so. Yeah, that's what I think. writers, communicators of any sort. Oh. Their audience is to speak the truth.
Speaker: with a little bit of humbleness. and humility. I mean, it's again, I love hearing this. yeah this perspective too, because it it is. You've really been so courageous in speaking out about so many things that I think a lot of people.
Speaker: haven't been comfortable talking about it. We talked about kink. We talked about sexual involvement, you've shared around your status, many of these conversations that again, People people don't respond very openly in having those those conversations. You've also held a very corporate job.
Speaker: And you don't necessari necessarily have to share the. background of the corporate job. But I think what I'd love to hear from you is because Not everybody who feels like they have a like a position in ah in some sort of environment, whether it's an enterprise company or some other company. Feels like they can be out and have conversations.
Speaker: i'd love And especially it's so important to social movements that these... Individuals are part of our movements. And so I'm curious your own negotiations of like, hey, I have a corporate gig. I've got to do X and Y thing. And on the sidelines, I'm doing. This amazing stuff. You're speaking at conferences. You're going to, you're doing a lot of the leather events. You're doing many of those things, which are sometimes very public.
Speaker: Like, how did you negotiate? that relationship with your employment, with your job. to be out there having these courageous conversations because not every employer would handle it.
Speaker: So again, it was somewhat. A conscious decision and somewhat luck. So I'm not going to mention the last company I worked for, but I was very high level management in. software technology. Let me put it that way.
Speaker: And I had a team throughout the United States, in India, in... scattered around the world. And. I made a decision at a very young age that I was going to live my life pretty openly.
Speaker: So, for example, in the kink and the leather world, sometimes people create other names. They call them scene names. 2. Cover up. Who they are? to the ship so that they aren't exposed to who they don't want to be exposed to?
Speaker: I used to judge that. I used to say, well, I made the decision that I was going to be Race Bannon everywhere I was. You should too. And then people educated me. And they said, it's not as easy for.
Speaker: Somebody in... Oklahoma. It's not as easy for a woman. It's not as easy for people of color. It's not as easy for somebody who is financially strapped and marginalized already.
Speaker: And I realized that. That again. Part of my evolution was I changed my mind around that and said, well, I get it. So what I did was I chose at a very young age to only pick professions.
Speaker: in which I felt I could be openly gay, openly kinky. And I happen to also be polyamorous, so openly poly. And also, once I became HIV positive, that that would not be held against me.
Speaker: So. I was a professional dancer for many years. I was a bartender. I waited tables. I was a makeup artist. I could go through the list of things. All professions, you'll note.
Speaker: Allowed me to be a very open gay kinky poly whatever person without a lot of judgment. But then when I entered the corporate world, I also decided I was going to. follow that same path.
Speaker: And... Let the chips fall where they may. And it. I happen to do most of that corporate work in California. Los Angeles and San Francisco. So I had the luck of being in California. It helps.
Speaker: But I'll tell you a story. My last job, i two managers ago. I was at that company for many many years. She called me into her office. And she said, sell race. I googled you.
Speaker: look NU - Ha ha! And I went, okay, here it comes. And she was this very sort of milk toast, mild, lovely, smart woman.
Speaker: And. I said, okay, I was bracing myself. Thanks. She said, you lead a very interesting life outside of work. Hmm. Oh, by the way, I'm promoting you and here's the biggest raise you've ever gotten.
Speaker: All in one meeting. Now, i happened to that was the benefit of being in a Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area software tech company, which tends to be more liberal. and progressive, despite some of the... the tech bros these days. But.
Speaker: So I made even that choice. I didn't go into... Wall Street banking. I didn't go into a profession. in which I had to I felt I had to hide more, but I was also prepared for them to.
Speaker: stop me from getting promoted and raises and things like that. It never happened. And part of the reason I think. is that I always normalized it. I never gave them more information than they needed.
Speaker: They didn't know. to Need to know the details of my kinky life? They didn't need to know that I was. all the gay parties I was at. They didn't need to. to know. all the the different polyamorous partners I've had throughout my life.
Speaker: They just needed to know the basic information and I just leave it at that. And I was lucky enough that they accepted it. Again. There's a bit of luck there. So I don't judge anybody.
Speaker: Anybody. who holds back any part of their life. Because. it could financially impact them in a really serious way. No, I appreciate you sharing that because if you've seen my TED Talk, you know that that is not how my conversation went. yeah but i do what i do But I do think it's really important about the intentionality and and how it is it is about trying to make decisions because...
Speaker: I think queer people oftentimes undersell their skill sets and undersell what they bring into the room and that companies would be. better off. encouraging community members who have full lives, who who are willing to just embrace who they are, who live with that level of authenticity.
Speaker: but to be in the room. And I think that they would be better off. I think that's been proven in many cases. There's lots of studies that that say the same. So I'm really glad again with that story because that's, it's really important. A lot of people, especially activists, it's just something they think about because sometimes they're doing.
Speaker: activism in their free time because they pay the bills through whatever other role it is. And I think sometimes there's a certain self judgment that happens there. And I think the reality is you have to. Many people have to. We can't have social change without that kind of that kind of balance.
Speaker: i I think also in my case. It was my perspective on. my fancy schmancy corporate life. because I tried to never think of it as my fancy schmancy corporate life.
Speaker: And when people ask me, I said, oh, you make this. Big. tech salary, upper management, blah, blah, blah. I said, it's my fancy waiting tables so I can do everything else in my life that I do. So nothing. That's not to dismiss. servers at all but that's how i used to phrase it it was my fancy waiting tables which often people do to sort of make ends meet, right?
Speaker: It was my way to pay myself so I could do the activism. I could do the writing. I could do the community engagement, the community involvement, organizing. etcetera, politics. I would not have been able to do it because I would have been so worried about my day to day finances that I wouldn't.
Speaker: be able to do it. so That was partially a conscious choice, but also because I'm not. I'm I have as much respect for somebody who's a janitor as I do a corporate CEO. I, I. this idea that we stratify people is just such BS.
Speaker: that up. And I always kind of saw it that way. Well, I think there's a mythology that activists have to suffer. And I think I'm a firm believer that I believe in being committed to the causes. But make sure you put your mask on first before you can put other people's masks on first, because that keeps you in this work.
Speaker: which is a marathon, not a sprint. And so make sure that you are. Keeping yourself, and I say well -fed in the spiritual, emotional. financial ways that need to happen in order for you to be able to do the long -term.
Speaker: in order for you to be fighting for many of these causes. And as a young person, that was not always the narrative. So thank you for for for sharing about that. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of stigma around that, too, like of being able to take care of yourself and to have the financial means to take care of yourself while still fighting the good fight.
Speaker: and being in the advocacy circles. and being an artist, and I relate to this so much. of there's the internalized shame of it but then there's also the external of like You feel you you can sometimes feel when people are judging you for having the things.
Speaker: That you're just like, no, I need to be able to still take care of myself. I just found the way to do it. I'm glad you brought up the the analogous situation of being an artist, because i I don't think it's an accident that artists and activists are often hanging out together. I think there's a mindset and there's that old.
Speaker: trope of you have to suffer for your art. well No, you don't have to suffer for your - I'm a princess. No. Yeah. and And if you're worried about where the bread on your table is going to come from, how do you create art?
Speaker: And so, and how do you you like do meaningful activist work, et cetera. So, so I'm glad you brought, I, you made that parallel. Yeah. like Thank you so much. we're gonna We're going to take one more quick break. So please don't go anywhere. When we come back, we're going to get to know. race spinning even more than we do right now. So stay tuned for our Beyond Pride. We'll be right back after this break.
Speaker: Welcome back to Power Beyond Pride. I'm Hunter, and I'm here with my co -host Shane and Ray Spannon. Race, after everything you've lived, taught and poured into the world, what does sexual prevention, freedom and health look like in the future?
Speaker: I think it will continue to be. a combination of scientific, medical, and behavioral and community education. I think it always will be. The science will change. The communities in which we do the education will change, but it's always going to be a combination of the two.
Speaker: Whether it's... it's how you do sexuality how you make it safer how you make it consensual how you Add in toys or not, whatever whatever you do. I imagine the toys are going to have 50 years from now.
Speaker: So I think it will always be a combination of science, medical and... community right i'm waiting for that bet I want that ah Alexander Skarsgård robot. Anyway. Yes.
Speaker: I'm going to have to add two feet to my ceiling, though, for that. But I do think it will always be a combination of all that. the The various bricks in the wall will be different over time, but we're still going to be building the same wall.
Speaker: I love it I love it because it's honestly, it's a conversation that's been going on for a long time and I see them as integrated as well. I think it's it's this idea that bodily autonomy, which is one of my core values and one of the things that I fight for.
Speaker: Like it's tied, whether it's reproductive justice or feminism, queer rights, trans plus community rights. Like all of these things, they're integrated in many different ways. And I think young people see that. I think they see that in a. in larger language around their identities right i think it's just absolutely Also that way. So thank you for sharing that. phrase And I'm glad you brought up.
Speaker: reproductive health birth control as, because I think that was such a game changer. that it's an example of how science and medicine. can influence. Culture.
Speaker: and entire societies and open up opportunities and that never would have been there before. So that's why I say it's always got to be a combination of both. i love it I love it. Well, I want to get to know you even more. Now I've known race.
Speaker: For several years, but there's lots of questions here in our speed round that I would have never asked you before that I get to ask you now. So I'm very excited about this. And so this is where we ask our guests just simple questions and you can't overthink your responses. It's really the first one that comes to mind.
Speaker: And you just gotta got to got to blurt it out. Are you ready? I am bracing myself. All right. Ready? Leather or lace? Leather First crush, fictional or or real?
Speaker: Real. Safe word, essential or negotiable. negotiable. Favorite city for self -expression. San Francisco. Second favorite city for self -expression?
Speaker: Berlin. Oh, Brogain! We're done. A rule you love breaking. Oh, oh. Oh. Crap.
Speaker: I break so many rules. Breaking the law. Breaking the law. I... Being extremely funny in serious kinky situations and laughing a lot. Oh, that is the best when you're in like a kinky scene and you just.
Speaker: You just... laugh because it's so fun. like You guys are placing the giggles. Quick story, I was playing with... My boyfriend, I told you I'm Polly, down in in Palm Springs. And we both have some knee issues. And I said, get down. And he sort of gets down. with he sit is any And he goes, now what? I said, oh, no, that's the scene. yeah
Speaker: We fell out for five minutes. We just laughed and laughed and laughed. And that was, right it was just fun. Anyway, you gotta laugh. life is Life is about laughter. Anyway, next question. I love it.
Speaker: Oh. Oh my gosh. One thing that people assume about you that's wrong. That I'm a very. Stodgy. Old school Leatherman. I love that. I love that. Advice you wish you had in your 20s.
Speaker: Try to the best of your ability to not care what other people think. One word. Sex is... Done.
Speaker: yeah A song that defines your youth. Helter Skelter Oh nice. Okay. huge little thing Huge Beatles fan.
Speaker: One word to describe your younger self. Introverted. One word to describe your current self. Amber Burt with very strong extroverts tendencies.
Speaker: Sorry, that's not one word. That's a lot of words, but I'm here for it. No, no, no. It's brilliant. I love it. I absolutely love it. And for context, for anybody that's listening, ambivert is what people try to say is an introverted extrovert. You can't be both. You can be in that middle area, but introverted extrovert is an next oxymoron. That's my NeuroSpicy rant.
Speaker: So sorry. Emberford Pride. Emberford Pride. What does Power Beyond Pride mean to you? allowing everybody to be their authentic selves.
Speaker: I'm cheering for the audio podcast, I'm sure. Got the little cheer dance going on right now. Race, thank you for your honesty, your work, and the decades you've spent educating and empowering people. Where can people follow you and your work?
Speaker: I have a couple of sub stacks. Just look up my name, race Bannon. I have one sub stack love at the edges, which is about sexuality and relationship topics. And I have one called musings from a curious mind, which is about a lot of other things. I have a medium newsletter.
Speaker: i have a couple of Actually, three books out. Let me just look them up under my name. And if you're on socials, I am either race Bannon or Bannon race on almost every platform.
Speaker: Sign up to us on Hawkins Race. Always shares great stuff. Let me park. Also pitch our En Garde Cigar Salon podcast. Oh, please do. Yeah. And so it's On Guard Cigar Podcast.
Speaker: It's En Garde Cigar Salon. podcast, but if you do. Ampersand on Guard Salon. You'll find it. I just want you to say the title at least three more times just because I think it's so fun to watch.
Speaker: Oh, I'm glad you like it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you again for being here. It means the world to me, again, race to spend time with you. I've been a fan and following you for years and I'm. So grateful to have been in community with you.
Speaker: and and really learn from you in many different ways. I think it's it's just been such a joy. to witness your your path, your journey. and everything you've done. so Again, thank you for living in your truth. Thank you for bringing that to many people, including myself. So thank you. um bottom of my From the bottom of my little Irish little cockles of my heart.
Speaker: i' yeah I'm really Irish too, so I but i appreciate it. I just didn't get to meet you for the first time, so. Yeah it's been wonderful getting to just talk with you and learn some more about you throughout this episode.
Speaker: You are both a total pleasure. I am going to take that compliment because I love it. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. I'm your co -host Shane Lucas, and you can follow me at shanelucas .com or any place that a great idea has its social handles.
Speaker: And I'm your co -host Hunter. ah You can find me on. Instagram at HNTR Griffey, so Hunter Photography, or you can find my website at www .hntrphoto .com.
Speaker: otherwise i'm pretty much a recluse i like my business i like my privacy So if you're in that inner circle, you already know it. Remember to subscribe and get your friends to subscribe to Power Beyond Pride on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And check out our site at powerbeyondpride .com.
Speaker: Power Beyond Pride is a project from A Great Idea, a queer owned design and content agency. Learn more about them at agreatidea .com. This episode is produced by Shane Lucas. Maddie Bynum is the project developer. Our editor is Jarrett Redding with support from Ian Wilson.
Speaker: Hunter and I are both part of this podcast. Awesome host team. And we invite you to send in your questions and comments at powerbeyondpride .com. Check out our new episodes each week and we look forward to queer change making with you next time. Thank you from all of us at Power Beyond Pride.
