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Helping Growers Grow
39 Plays5 hours ago
In this episode of Hort Culture, Brett and Ray are joined by Dr. Cindy Finneseth from the University of Kentucky to discuss community horticulture, urban agriculture, and supporting new growers across Kentucky. Dr. Finneseth shares how her role focuses on helping beginning and small-scale producers navigate production, marketing, and business planning while connecting them with Extension resources. The conversation highlights the diversity of Kentucky horticulture, the growth of urban and small-scale farming, and innovative production methods that allow growers to produce crops year-round. The group also discusses challenges such as labor, financing, and scaling operations, while emphasizing the importance of collaboration among growers, Extension specialists, and industry partners. Overall, the episode showcases the opportunities and innovation driving Kentucky’s horticulture industry and the strong consumer interest in locally grown products.
Cynthia Finneseth, Extension Specialist for Community Horticulture
UK Center for Crop Diversification
UK Cooperative Extension Service
Questions/Comments/Feedback/Suggestions for Topics: hortculturepodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Cindy Finneseth in Kentucky Horticulture
00:00:17
Brett
All right, well, welcome plant people from the normal pod squad. It's just me and Ray, but we are joined today by a titan of Kentucky horticulture and agriculture, Cindy Finneseth, Dr. Cindy Finneseth from previous hort culture, i mean, ah hort council fame and now of the horticulture department at University of Kentucky. Cindy, how are you?
00:00:38
Cindy Finneseth
I'm doing all right. making me a little nervous saying I'm a Titan and famous. Woo.
00:00:43
Brett
yeah war Yeah, oh yeah, famous.
00:00:43
Cindy Finneseth
lot of pressure.
00:00:45
Plant People
Brett comes in smooth, unlike Alexis. I mean, we can when Alexis brings the energy, she comes in and just, you know, that that zing energy, Brett just kind of slides in there
Storm Impacts on Kentucky Farms
00:00:54
Plant People
smooth.
00:00:54
Brett
Anybody have any, well, did anybody have any trouble with any of the the rain, flooding, any kind of stuff like that?
00:00:55
Plant People
But all the accolades, yeah.
00:01:01
Plant People
No, not flooding. Not flooding, no.
00:01:03
Brett
Can some...
00:01:03
Plant People
There's a lot of trees down in central Kentucky where my county's at him in Bourbon County on my drive over from Scott County. ah Just lots of trees and just getting reports from farms of several of our people had to kind of dip out of programs because they were having cleanup done on the farm.
00:01:20
Plant People
So I guess just the wet...
00:01:21
Brett
Hmm.
00:01:23
Plant People
Soil in combination with some pretty strong straight line winds and a little bit of damage here and there. Hopefully you guys fared pretty well, Cindy and Brett.
00:01:31
Cindy Finneseth
Some flooding on campus. I had a hard time getting to the farm yesterday because we had had flooding over by the kind of by the football stadium.
00:01:36
Plant People
Oh.
00:01:40
Cindy Finneseth
But other than that, yeah yeah, I was real surprised.
00:01:40
Plant People
Oh, I heard about that. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:01:43
Cindy Finneseth
It came down pretty fast and hard here in the morning and then cleared off and it was a gorgeous day out at the farm in the afternoon.
00:01:50
Plant People
Yeah, cleared out pretty quick, but we were just talking earlier about the moisture is keeping things growing. I mean, it's late June, but ah we've had some cool nights here recently. It feels more like September evenings or early May, but my goodness, my lawn, I'm im typically this time of year mowing every 14 days, every
Unusual Weather and Plant Appreciation
00:02:09
Plant People
two weeks. Now I'm mowing every six days, so we've had just enough intervals of rain and rain.
00:02:15
Plant People
lower temperatures at night to keep those cool season grasses growing. So yeah, everybody's out there mow, mow, mowing. It's keeping things going for sure.
00:02:24
Brett
Well, I have a question just to start us off. We're going to talk a little bit about, well, who knows what we're going to end up talking about. ah But is there a plant that you you now like or love, but you had to learn to like or love it?
00:02:29
Plant People
Who knows? We don't know.
00:02:41
Brett
Could be ornamental, could be a vegetable, could be any number of things.
00:02:46
Plant People
God.
00:02:46
Brett
But like you're like, I like it now, but I had to learn to like it or learn to love it. Or maybe you just...
00:02:51
Plant People
You're forced to love it due to proximity or somebody gave you a gift plant that you just were like, oh man I'm trying to think of scenarios here.
00:02:52
Brett
Yeah. most Yeah.
00:02:57
Brett
Yeah.
00:02:59
Plant People
Wow.
00:03:01
Cindy Finneseth
I can think of one. so in my research plot, I have wild quinine and it was a plant I'd never grown before. And when I first grew it, I was like, man, that is ugly.
00:03:11
Cindy Finneseth
And it was scratchy and you know the leaves are so thick and scabrous. And I was like, and then we started harvesting it for a cut flower and man, that thing lasts on the counter.
00:03:23
Cindy Finneseth
So the vase life is amazing. It's a pretty, I mean, it's not super showy, but kind of a creamy white flower and um And so that would be mine here recently that I just didn't really like it at first.
00:03:30
Brett
Good morning.
00:03:35
Cindy Finneseth
And I thought, man, this, I did didn't, you know, have much hopes. But after seeing it as an actual cut flower in the vase and in arrangements, I have to say it's one of my recommendations now for for folks who are interested in kind of low maintenance, something for a cutting garden.
00:03:52
Plant People
Oh, yeah.
00:03:53
Cindy Finneseth
Yeah. And for cut flower growers, I think I'm pretty solid a a proponent of this of this crop now.
00:04:02
Brett
That's a great shout.
00:04:02
Plant People
You're on the team, on the team.
00:04:03
Brett
Yeah.
00:04:05
Cindy Finneseth
yeah
00:04:05
Plant People
I was trying to think, Brad, I guess I recently gave ah a talk at a ah garden club did a little presentation, but we got it off topic, you know, as I tend to do. But talking about hydrangeas, when I first started my career in extension a long, long time ago, many decades ago, you know, it wass more common to have just standard hydrangeas, smooth hydrangeas or whatever. But now with the rise in popularity and almost complete takeover of the ever-blooming hydrangeas. am now team hydrangea, whereas before they were so temperamental, so prone to winter kill or issues or bloom color issues and change. They were very inconsistent.
00:04:43
Plant People
And I didn't recommend those in my first I was not a big fan of those in my first years of extension, but now it is one of the absolute best plants if you want a good, consistent, showy bloomer.
00:04:56
Plant People
But it's hydrangeas, the new ever-blooming. mean, my goodness, i've I've cut those things to the ground, 10 inches above the ground, and if the root mass is healthy, they just grow back up and they bloom, and they're just so tough with very little maintenance. But I would i would have to call out hydrangeas. used to be one of my least favorite. and Now it's one of my most favorites.
00:05:15
Brett
Hmm. Yeah, I think for me, it it would be probably Dogwoods. I was like never a dog. I like hated them. I thought they were like I so i thought they were ah i thought they were old.
00:05:25
Plant People
Gosh, Brad, that sounds strong.
00:05:27
Brett
but They were old lady trees.
00:05:27
Plant People
hated them.
00:05:29
Brett
I didn't hate them, but I was just like, oh, i thought they were old lady trees. and you know, maybe they are, maybe, and maybe I'm, well, we, if we, if we know any old ladies or ever have them on the pod, we'll be careful, but, uh, but like we have, uh, one really old, pretty old one in our backyard, that's a pink blooming and then another one that's white.
00:05:33
Cindy Finneseth
Hey, be careful there.
00:05:37
Plant People
That's my favorite plant.
00:05:38
Cindy Finneseth
ah
00:05:39
Plant People
had to get in trouble. Uh-huh.
00:05:48
Brett
And there's a nice like selection of trees around the the neighborhood that, uh, but different, slightly different colors and stuff.
00:05:52
Plant People
Uh-huh.
00:05:55
Brett
And I just come to appreciate them much more over the years than and I used to.
00:06:00
Plant People
I do have love-hate with them I mean, I do love them. I'm from the eastern foothills, so naturally i love redbuds and dogwoods. But, you know, that's that's a tree we commonly get a lot of you know questions on with the powdery mildew and anthracnose and scorch, summer scorch on those guys. But even with all of that, when I see a good example of a dogwood out there, it's ah it's a glorious sight to see in the landscape, especially the older ones that have done well for whatever reason through care.
00:06:27
Plant People
And, you know, proper planting and and maintenance. But, yeah, I kind of have a love-hate with dogwoods, too. um I love the tree, but they have some typical problems if you're not really careful about site selection and putting those things in the right place.
00:06:39
Plant People
So, yeah, it's good one.
00:06:41
Brett
Yeah. Yeah. I think I just one of those that over time, cause it's, it's, yeah.
00:06:42
Plant People
It kind of grew on you?
00:06:45
Brett
I mean, they, did they, they grow slowly, but slowly, but grew on me, I guess, I guess that's the case, but well, that's enough of my silly questions, but what I wanted to,
00:06:52
Cindy Finneseth
right.
Cindy's Role at University of Kentucky
00:06:57
Brett
originally we had talked to Cindy about maybe talking about houseplant propagation and we may get to that or we may just have to schedule a follow-up that will come she'll come back on and talk to us about them but you have a very interesting position at the university and in the horticulture department and I'd love to we'd love to hear about kind of what that is how you've been shaping it and in the directions you're taking with it and um yeah, the stuff that you're excited about or that you're working on or thinking about to, we can start there. And if we end up at houseplants, great. If we don't, that's okay too. We'll put that as a teaser.
00:07:31
Cindy Finneseth
Sure, sure. So, so yeah, this was a a new position in the Department of Horticulture. So we were talking earlier about, it's been just about two years that I've been in this role in the department here at the College Bag, and it is community horticulture, which um that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
00:07:52
Cindy Finneseth
And it's great because there is a lot of latitude there and it can encompass a lot of different things, but that's hard too, because it covers a lot of of territory. So, so kind of what I've been doing a lot of is um working with small scale growers, particularly in urban areas. um And then working with beginning growers because we have this constant um but you know interest in people wanting to get into horticulture production. And ah just to be clear, so I'm talking community horticulture, not consumer horticulture. So don't really work with homeowners. It's really more pre-commercial and and commercial growers who want to have horticulture operations. And so I may be the first touch for people. um
00:08:35
Cindy Finneseth
The other folks that I work with who who really focus in on beginning growers, you we kind of tag team and and work to help people who are interested, whether it is food production, ornamental production, we do get some value added questions from folks who are interested in that. So that's kind of where I've kind of started. And then, like i said, urban horticulture, that's kind of an area i've been in, particularly because that's small scale.
00:09:03
Cindy Finneseth
And there are a lot of crops that people can grow small scale production. i' had mentioned some of the cut flower work earlier, so that's a production system that can be very profitable at very small scale.
00:09:14
Cindy Finneseth
There are other, you know, fruits and vegetables that can be high production, profitable, small scale operations, which doesn't really matter where you are. You could be in an urban area, you could be in a very rural area, but kind of more limited by scale necessarily than, you know, some other other things.
00:09:24
Plant People
Mmm.
00:09:30
Cindy Finneseth
So So yeah, it's been a lot of fun, gotten to work with a lot of folks that I had known in in previous positions, but also getting to meet a lot of new growers, people new to extension, which is super exciting that we're able to gateway a lot of people to learn about the extension service who really didn't know we existed and what kind of things that we can provide really at basically no charge to Kentucky residents because of the extension service.
Supporting New Growers
00:09:56
Plant People
It sounds like a really interesting position to me because I found a lot of joy or or working just personally with that group that's getting ready to stage up or getting ready to be producers, you know, for you know the purposes of production for profit. But ah would you say, ah you know, in your two years, and I know you've ah got lots of other horticulture experience, but... People that come to you now in this specific position, would you say that they have some experience and they've decided to level up and produce for profit? Or do you get people coming to you that say, I have zero experience, but I want to make some money and do this thing? Which would you, i mean, or do you kind of get a blend of both, would you say?
00:10:36
Cindy Finneseth
Yeah, it's pretty much across the spectrum because because of my involvement in the Kentucky horticulture industry, you know, sort of historically, um you know, i get people too, even that are are very experienced maybe in one thing and they decide they want to add a new enterprise.
00:10:51
Cindy Finneseth
And so they'll contact me just simply because they know my name and they have my telephone number and they'll say, hey, I want to talk about adding in blueberries. I've never done that before. And so may have a conversation with them and It's it's interesting where they start because they they know kind of production.
00:11:06
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:11:09
Cindy Finneseth
They know some of the basics.
00:11:09
Plant People
Oh, okay, yeah.
00:11:10
Cindy Finneseth
so it's a very different conversation. And I think that's what's the most interesting about what I do is that conversation is different with every single person. So it may be the person who's just, you know, they're moving from out west because our land prices are less expensive here.
00:11:18
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:11:26
Cindy Finneseth
And so they've bought a farm and they want to know what to do with it. And so, you know, we may talk through some things, some some just basic things, you know, and they've never grown anything at all. So very different conversation with that person versus, you know, somebody who's maybe been dabbling a little bit. Maybe they've done a little farmer's market. But they're thinking, oh, I really want to scale up. I really want to do I want to go all in on on this. And you know how how do I do that? And so really each person, you know, their sort of pathway to me is different and kind of where we go from there is different. You know, sometimes, um you know, if it's a person doing vegetables and they want to get into wholesale, you know, that's really kind of outside my area. So I'll refer them to to other folks, whether it's on the marketing side and i send them over to CCD with Brent or I'm with sorry, Brett.
00:12:14
Cindy Finneseth
Or if it's somebody fruit and I send them to Brent or a vegetable and I send them over to Rachel, you know, we have this whole team that that works. And so a lot of times I'm the kind of first contact with them.
00:12:25
Cindy Finneseth
And then depending on where we are and where they are, you know, they may take a different route to get the customized experience that they need to be successful.
00:12:35
Plant People
I'd say you do a lot of traffic control, it sounds like, as far as referral and directing people, which is half the battle, especially if you're new-new, and even for experienced growers that may need specific you know help with like irrigation or a specific topic or topic or, like you said, wholesale market.
00:12:35
Cindy Finneseth
Yeah. and
00:12:39
Cindy Finneseth
yeah
00:12:51
Plant People
So, yeah.
00:12:52
Cindy Finneseth
For sure. For sure. Yeah. And that's funny you say that. and Maybe I'll start describing it that way. is Sometimes I do feel that way that it's like, nope, over here, over here, you know, getting people to the right, the the right person.
00:13:00
Plant People
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:04
Cindy Finneseth
Yeah.
00:13:05
Brett
I just had a flashback to red light, green light in gym class and just trying to stop and going over, you know, over the handlebars, so to speak.
00:13:05
Cindy Finneseth
Stop.
00:13:08
Cindy Finneseth
Stop.
00:13:09
Plant People
Oh yeah.
00:13:11
Cindy Finneseth
hu
00:13:13
Brett
um Well, one of the things you you've mentioned a couple of times and in different contexts is this this scale thing, you know, small scale. And I think it's, I think about the scale that we do things across the
00:13:27
Plant People
Scale in Kentucky is interesting.
00:13:28
Brett
a lot of different, um and and even just the scale that we think about the way we provide services or the scale that we think about politics or whatever it may be.
00:13:28
Cindy Finneseth
Mm-hmm, sure.
00:13:37
Brett
But um I think the, one of the things that the small scale thing, it's something that USDA, I think has grappled with over the last 10 years or so. And so can you, when you say small scale, even within that, is there like some, some diversity of, of, but you know, there's small, small, and then there's medium, small and, and that sort of thing, or kind of how, what, what are you seeing there?
Challenges in Small Scale Farming
00:14:01
Cindy Finneseth
Sure. I think they actually call it micro, right? Like a micro farm. um So what's really interesting, you know, this whole lexicon, and and maybe we should come up with some standard definitions because you're right, each agency kind of scales differently. um So, you know, USDA, NRCS, so Natural Resources Conservation Service, you know, they will recognize a farm very much less than an acre.
00:14:26
Cindy Finneseth
So you can have a farm number, you can be recognized as an operation on like an eighth of an acre. And so like talking square footage versus acres um up to you know, kind of the beginning grower who may have access to a lot of land, hundreds of acres, but yet, you know, they're starting out small. So we may say, oh, you're interested in strawberries.
00:14:46
Cindy Finneseth
Don't start out with 12 acres, even though you have the land, you know, maybe maybe start with a quarter of an acre till you understand like the production system.
00:14:52
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:14:53
Cindy Finneseth
You've got your markets together, you know, you've figured everything out. So I think um some of it is is really land access um and some of it is more mindset around like, hey, small scale, you know, maybe it is an economics thing.
00:15:07
Cindy Finneseth
You know, maybe you are pre-commercial and you haven't made sort of that that magic threshold of a thousand dollars yet. And so, yeah I would call you small scale, even though your farm, you may live on a farm that's that's hundreds of acres.
00:15:19
Cindy Finneseth
I would still consider that small scale. um You know, the ones that we typically think of small scale of somebody in an urban environment that has quarter acre lot, obviously small scale.
00:15:29
Cindy Finneseth
But I think, too, you know, kind of that that economic kind of that beginning grower idea of, you know, we we hope that they start at a smaller scale so that it's more manageable.
00:15:40
Cindy Finneseth
They can really refine things. They can you really figure out their markets, really figure out what they're doing, what resonates with them, you know what what they can be successful at before we start talking about scaling up.
00:15:52
Cindy Finneseth
And before, you know whether that is scaling up from a standpoint of lots of different markets, diversifying the markets, or it is, you know I'm going to go from this quarter of an acre and I'm going up to seven acres next year, you know, whatever that that looks like.
00:16:07
Cindy Finneseth
So um I don't know that I really answered your question or if I kind of danced around it of I don't have a good definition for small scale because it's kind of a little bit different, um you know, based on on who you're talking to.
00:16:18
Cindy Finneseth
But I tend to.
00:16:18
Plant People
And the crop, yeah. I mean, like you said, a quarter acre of strawberries is significantly different than a quarter acre of tobacco. Or...
00:16:25
Cindy Finneseth
Oh, for sure.
00:16:26
Plant People
Of course, you know, a cow-calf pair on an acre, like ah the definition across, you know, enterprises is so different. Or a quarter acre microgreens. We were talking microgreens this morning.
00:16:36
Plant People
So, yeah, it's ah very relative to the crop and the intensity of production. And then you start saying words like, oh, how about external labor to the farm? And then it gets really interesting really quick.
00:16:48
Plant People
Yeah, when you're talking about these different enterprises. So it's scale has always been kind of fascinating to me.
00:16:51
Cindy Finneseth
Thank you.
00:16:53
Brett
Yeah, one I think one of the things I was getting at that that you you touched on great is just like the the the inclusivity of size and that, especially as Ray said, you know, these intensive systems, an acre has very different meaning in these different systems that if an acre of tomatoes are under plastic, know,
00:17:14
Brett
and I had to manage it myself makes my skin crawl or something, but, um but an acre of, you know, corn, you turn the combine a couple of times and you're done. But um what about the, you mentioned the urban agriculture
Urban Agriculture Growth
00:17:29
Brett
thing. And I know that that was something that maybe, I don't know how long ago it is hard. It's a dangerous game now to try to remember how long ago something was, but Within the last 10 or 15 years, there seemed like there was a new acknowledgement of urban agriculture as this important new field. And so is that is that most of that urban agriculture interest mostly happening like in the Louisville-Lexington areas? Or is there other places that we might not think about that where that you're seeing some of that?
00:17:58
Cindy Finneseth
Yeah, for sure. That's another thing that, you know, has a a myriad of definitions, right, is what what is urban. And I tend to think of urban really as kind of being within the city limits.
00:18:09
Cindy Finneseth
So in Paris, you know, i would You know, most people would be like Paris, that's not really urban, but yeah it really is when you're talking about like a a city municipality sort of thing, because the challenges are very different in kind of ah ah a municipal area versus a rural area, you know thinking about like ah planning and zoning, for example.
00:18:28
Plant People
Yeah.
00:18:29
Cindy Finneseth
You could be on Bourbon County and you do whatever you want to do, but if you're in the Paris city limits, you're very limited.
00:18:29
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:18:32
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:18:34
Cindy Finneseth
um So I tend to think of it more of that. um And, you know, we've got, you know, what are recognized as these micropolitan areas. So, you know, if you look at the the urban farming initiative here at the university, you know, we list, know, you know, places that people would be like, oh, Elizabethtown, London, those aren't urban areas, you know, it would only be, you know, Lexington, Louisville.
00:18:54
Cindy Finneseth
um So I guess if you look at some of the kind of federal definitions, yeah, probably it would be just, you know, Lexington Metro, Louisville Metro. But like, when I think of it, I think of, you know, those micropolitan areas too, if, you know, Northern Kentucky, clearly urban, Paducah, you know,
00:19:12
Cindy Finneseth
you know, the areas, you know, Owensboro, some of those larger cities, Hopkinsville, you know, i would consider those urban areas for sure.
00:19:17
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:19:19
Cindy Finneseth
And it it has been interesting. you know we're so fortunate in Kentucky that we have such a um high number of farmers markets. Typically, those are going to be in what you would consider an urban area.
00:19:31
Cindy Finneseth
So I think that's a great gateway for a lot of people who are interested in having kind of more of an urban operation or smaller scale operation, very low barrier to entry. You know, they can get in, they can, you know, test out that market channel to see, do they like having a business, you know, or really, do they just want to be a gardener, give away produce, or do they they want to truly have have a business?
00:19:53
Cindy Finneseth
So I think that, um you know, that's been a really ah powerful way for people to test out a little bit where they think, well, I don't have the luxury of 200 acres.
00:20:03
Cindy Finneseth
I don't have a farm, but I still want to grow something and I want to sell it. And so I think there are mechanisms in Kentucky for, for people to do that, whether it's, you know, direct to consumer from Facebook marketing, or it is farm stand, you know, a cooler farm stand.
00:20:18
Cindy Finneseth
I use that loosely. Maybe it's a cooler at the end of their driveway or a little, you know, set up at the end of their drive.
00:20:20
Brett
Mm-hmm.
00:20:21
Plant People
Mm-hmm. ah Honesty stand or whatever, these self-serve stands.
00:20:23
Cindy Finneseth
um Yeah, for sure.
00:20:25
Plant People
I see those pop up a lot.
00:20:26
Cindy Finneseth
For sure.
00:20:27
Plant People
Yeah, little stands, yeah.
00:20:27
Cindy Finneseth
Yeah.
00:20:29
Brett
One one brief brief listener's note, ah Cindy mentioned several names of of towns, Paris and London.
00:20:29
Cindy Finneseth
So think.
00:20:35
Brett
And if you're thinking to yourself, this this crazy person, we do have new listeners outside of Kentucky, this crazy person saying that Paris isn't urban? I don't know what.
00:20:42
Cindy Finneseth
I did, didn't I?
00:20:43
Brett
Paris, Kentucky. Some would would what you question that.
00:20:44
Plant People
yeah She mentioned a lot of European cities there.
00:20:46
Brett
So yeah but yeah, we have lots of cities in Kentucky.
00:20:48
Plant People
Yeah.
00:20:48
Cindy Finneseth
I didn't know.
00:20:48
Plant People
Yeah. Versailles.
00:20:50
Brett
Yeah.
00:20:51
Cindy Finneseth
Versa.
00:20:51
Plant People
Versailles. I'm sorry.
00:20:52
Brett
Yeah.
00:20:52
Plant People
Yeah.
00:20:53
Cindy Finneseth
er ye Yeah.
00:20:53
Plant People
We do have several listeners in the UK. So they're like, I'm confused.
00:20:57
Cindy Finneseth
Wait, Lyndon's pretty big town.
00:20:57
Plant People
Yeah. Yeah, but that's an interesting take on it, though, is that ah if you're dealing with metro issues, then you're a metropolitan producer or metro area producer. So that's an interesting take on that because, you know, dealing with planning and zoning and, of course, restricted lot space sizes and things. But it's amazing to me how inventive people are, especially with the rise of protected agriculture and all these polytunnels.
00:21:22
Plant People
and heated and unheated, you know, protected ag kind of structures, what people can do on, you know, small urban in small or smaller urban environments and what they can
Year-Round Crop Production
00:21:34
Plant People
produce and, and some of the neat sales systems that we have in Kentucky, like CSAs or any of the direct consumer sales avenues.
00:21:42
Plant People
And ah you kind of alluded to it with, the rise of social media and different ways of getting the word out. But it's always amazing to me how inventive people are and how much they can produce given the amount of space that they have, even though it's you know, maybe smaller.
00:21:54
Cindy Finneseth
Sure, sure.
00:21:55
Plant People
So it's pretty cool.
00:21:55
Cindy Finneseth
Well, and you know, microgreens, you mentioned that before, you know, that's something that people have setups in their basement or spare bedroom and they they can produce a lot.
00:22:02
Plant People
Sure. Yeah.
00:22:03
Cindy Finneseth
Same thing with mushrooms. You know, there are some folks in Kentucky who have really nice operations on a very small footprint.
00:22:05
Plant People
Mm hmm.
00:22:10
Cindy Finneseth
And so I think that that our growers are very clever about what they're doing and really maximizing the space that they have available to them. And, you know, you mentioned that about polytunnels protected ag and conversation I was having this morning that I want to be sure that that that we hit this because this is, you guys probably know this is my soapbox, but, you know, people who say, oh, you can't have, you know, produce year round in Kentucky.
00:22:34
Cindy Finneseth
That's clearly not true. You know, we have growers who have produce year round.
00:22:35
Plant People
Hmm.
00:22:38
Cindy Finneseth
And so maybe they're using different types of production systems and maybe the volumes aren't quite the same. And, you know, you're obviously not going to get locally grown watermelon in February. But our growers are really good managers and they're using technologies to have produce, produce you know truly 12 months of the year.
00:22:48
Plant People
yeah
00:22:56
Cindy Finneseth
So shout out to our growers.
00:22:57
Plant People
Well, just telling you, I was what a yeah eating a Cherokee purple tomato from our local farms almost three weeks ago. Beautiful. I mean, and they did it's more high tunnel than greenhouse, but yeah, it always amazes me when i I'm like eating out of season in Kentucky, yet it's local. So I'm like, yes, the best of both worlds.
00:23:15
Plant People
Absolutely.
00:23:18
Brett
Yeah, I think um yeah I remember once upon a time working at the the UK South Farm, doing some trials in some of the high tunnels and harvesting greens and and root vegetables and other stuff and you know for to have for New Year's Day and thinking, okay, yeah, there's something here. that there There's some things that we can do and stretching the the limits of that.
00:23:41
Brett
um I'm curious. So, you know, you've, you've had a lot of experience working across different groups of people, scales of people, ah different operations. Are there things that the, the people you're serving most now challenges or approaches or whatever that feel like kind of unique to them, or that's like kind of more common in that group, or is it, are they just kind of like everybody else is just at a different scale?
00:23:55
Plant People
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Labor Challenges in Farming
00:24:07
Cindy Finneseth
Oh, that's a great question. um You know, one thing is labor, for sure, um and helping people think through, am I ready to hire somebody, and and like everything that goes along with that, and I think a lot of people defer hiring um because they think, oh, you know i'm going to have to do, you know, W-2s, I'm going to have to do all these forms, it's going to be so complex, and
00:24:21
Brett
more.
00:24:31
Plant People
and you're not growing, you're managing different kind of thing.
00:24:33
Cindy Finneseth
Right, right, right.
00:24:34
Plant People
Hmm.
00:24:34
Cindy Finneseth
and And you're not nearly as nimble, right? Because like you can decide, oh, I'm going to go do this today and I'm going to get these things accomplished.
00:24:40
Plant People
Hmm.
00:24:41
Cindy Finneseth
And if you have an employee, then the planning is different, you know, because you're like, okay, well, what what do I need to do? What can I have them do? Do I train them to do it? Do I just, you know, take care of it myself?
00:24:51
Cindy Finneseth
um So I think that that that's one thing, and particularly with beginning growers and smaller scale is, you know, kind that labor thought process and and that that, you know, do they make enough money to make it worth hiring somebody or is that going to be all their profit going to pay someone else? And so I think, um you know, that's a And I wouldn't say it's unique.
00:25:13
Cindy Finneseth
I mean, I think all our growers deal with with labor and in in different ways.
00:25:15
Brett
Okay. Okay.
00:25:17
Cindy Finneseth
But I think that's something that that's that's tough for small scale growers to really think about when is it the right time to bring on an an employee or or multiple employees?
00:25:28
Cindy Finneseth
And then like, how do you do that? And like, what are the logistics around that? And then like, how do you find that person? And and how do you train that person? How do you you know evaluate that person? All of those things that they go into that.
00:25:39
Cindy Finneseth
So I think that's ah it's similar, but it's different. um So and so I think that that for sure, um you know,
00:25:47
Brett
Yeah, so something I'll say about that too, that I think it's, there's there's things some things in in life or in business or in whatever that where like, every one that you add is another additional, you know, set of responsibilities.
00:26:03
Brett
There's some things though, where the first one is the most painful by far. And then adding additional ones after that is, you know, and I i was thinking about two examples we've talked about.
00:26:07
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:26:12
Brett
One would be employees where it's like, if you have one employee, you have to have an HR system. You have to have some sort of payroll. You have to do these things. And if you had the second employee, you're going to add some responsibilities to yourself to, to, you know, figure out how to communicate with them, whatever.
00:26:26
Brett
But all those other things have already been done. I was thinking also about high tunnels. You know, if I have a high tunnel, and I have to go out and open it on Christmas day because the sun came out.
00:26:30
Cindy Finneseth
Thank you.
00:26:35
Brett
Well, if I have two high tunnels, it's not that much more work compared to, you know, and it's just the interesting thing with it, beginning producers or smaller scale producers,
00:26:41
Plant People
Thank you.
00:26:45
Brett
are facing the brunt of that initial getting up you know ah getting up to speed, getting every all these systems in place challenge that the you know the beginning or the the more advanced folks who are adding and and scaling up you know elements within it, I never really thought about it exactly in that way, but that was what kind of even just made me think of there. um So anyway, i interrupted you, but that was...
00:27:08
Brett
Yeah, i that speaks to a lot of the folks a lot of the folks. You're like, I have nothing and I'm going to try to make something as opposed to I have something and I'm to try to make something better or something you know a little bit more advanced.
00:27:21
Plant People
Do you divide that up, Cindy, like in your mind or in your programming deliberately or or not so much as far as the production versus the management and the business side of things?
00:27:31
Plant People
Do you have any kind of logical tracks that you send people down or you just kind of field it and then just kind of plug people into the resources that the university has needed?
00:27:40
Cindy Finneseth
yeah so so because I'm a horticulturist production is always what I focus on right like like and it's about them the plants and
00:27:45
Plant People
Yeah, it's the fun stuff, I think, for me personally. It's the production, yeah
00:27:49
Cindy Finneseth
For sure, for sure, for sure. But, you know, as I have matured, i have realized like, like it is not in a vacuum, right? Like you have to have all those other systems in place and you have to have markets in place because it doesn't matter how gorgeous what you're growing is or how wonderful it tastes.
00:28:07
Cindy Finneseth
If if you don't have a market for it, it doesn't really matter.
00:28:08
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:28:10
Cindy Finneseth
And kind of the same thing too around record keeping and You know, yeah, that's not the glamorous part, but but you got to do it.
00:28:10
Plant People
Yeah.
00:28:17
Cindy Finneseth
And so I hope that the growers I work with would say we strike a balance. But, you know, sometimes it is really focusing in on the bottleneck.
00:28:23
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:28:26
Cindy Finneseth
And it's really like, like doing that, you know, that assessment of like, like, what is the biggest pain point? What are they struggling with the most and hitting that, even though it may be something that maybe i I don't do or have, have expertise in. And then it may be like, okay, let's, let's send them over to Brett to talk about market channels. And then like, once they've mastered that and they're ready to come back and start talking production, you know, then we would kind of flip, you know, kind of not flip but like like approach it as a team versus oh i'm gonna work with you until we get to this point and then i'm gonna hand you off you know it really does kind of become more of like okay you like you need to be talking k-cord about a business plan you need to be talking um to the folks at ccd about you know a really solid you know marketing plan and those kinds of things um
00:29:15
Cindy Finneseth
And like going along that journey with the person so that that we can check in with them, seeing if they're doing okay, kind of a little bit of that accountability of like, oh, hey, you know, did you update your business plan? Oh, hey, you said you were going to apply for a loan.
00:29:25
Plant People
Thank you.
00:29:26
Cindy Finneseth
Did you do that? Even though I wouldn't necessarily be helping them with it, but like taking that kind of holistic approach. I think um we've got lots of examples of growers. I'm going call them out on here, but if they're listening, they're going to know I'm talking about them.
00:29:40
Cindy Finneseth
that they've been able to make the biggest advances in their operations because we've taken this team approach. So you know I've been working with them, Hort Council's been working with them, Community Farm Alliance has been working with them, they've been working with CCD, you know they've been their local county extension agent, you know and it's really been that team effort because not a single one of us, well, I'll speak for myself, um maybe there's someone out there, I don't think any of us alone have all of the answers and all of the expertise. But man, when we come together as a team, we can really help push somebody forward and we can get them where they want to be. And we can really provide great service to them and and help them really achieve their goals. Because we each have you know different areas of expertise and you know different ideas, thoughts, connections. and can really move move a grower forward together that way versus just them working alone with me. you know We're going to be great at some things, but other things we won't be nearly as good at because you know that's not not what I do.
00:30:40
Plant People
There's so many specializations in horticulture, right? There is an all of, you know, plant and animal protection across the board, row crops, whatever. But I was an ag agent before. And then when I became a horticulture agent and specifically worked with horticulture crops, I mean...
00:30:55
Plant People
It covers everything, like you said, from strawberries to sometimes mushrooms and things. And it a lot of times involves protected spaces where you have to worry about heating systems and water delivery systems. And you add all these specialized systems on top of, you know, the obvious business needs of dealing with things like and and all the things that go along with that. But but the the complexities are kind of endless. But it's also an exciting time to be involved in all this because the systems of monitoring, the systems, you know, of putting a cover over something, all the systems are getting...
00:31:28
Cindy Finneseth
Thank you.
00:31:29
Plant People
Lots of technology, lots of advancements there. So it's an exciting time to be involved in that, but it's also a very challenging time when you're working with you know with folks. And really, and this is one of those scenarios to me, Cindy, that it it kind of takes a village because when they look at me, they're like, wait a minute, you're supposed to have all the answers and I make a visit with somebody and they're doing something really cool, but at a high level, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:31:49
Plant People
You know, that is not true. I need to talk to my irrigation expert and find out whatever. or whatever I'm talking about, but it's exciting times. But I think the specializations just, you know, keep rolling in our, in our area as Kentucky kind of makes strides in horticultural production and marketing and scale and all the things that we're talking about today. But it's just, it's exciting, but boy, it takes a lot of specialties.
00:32:13
Cindy Finneseth
Oh, for sure. And I think the other real exciting thing is our consumers in Kentucky um really drive local purchasing. You know, we have a lot that that do go to their farmers markets.
00:32:21
Plant People
Hmm. Hmm.
00:32:25
Cindy Finneseth
They subscribe to CSA or you know, farm share programs.
Consumer Support for Local Agriculture
00:32:28
Cindy Finneseth
You know, they are willing to do on farm visits, go to agritourism locations and really connect with, um you know, growers.
00:32:32
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:32:35
Cindy Finneseth
And that's something with the urban populations that's interesting. that you know they will go out and make farm visits. you know They'll go to, andma again i don't want to call out any names because I will miss someone, but you know you know lots of agritourism locations around Kentucky that people can can connect up with.
00:32:51
Cindy Finneseth
And I mentioned the farmer's market before of you, know you you would have to work to not find one, right? Like, like I think we have 175 maybe-ish in the state and in almost every county's got a farmer's market.
00:33:03
Plant People
Yeah.
00:33:05
Cindy Finneseth
That may not convenient be convenient of the date you're looking for. They may not be open on Wednesday afternoons or something.
00:33:10
Plant People
yeah
00:33:10
Cindy Finneseth
But but I think that um our consumers in Kentucky really value that. And that's been, I think, a driver for advancement in the industry is that, you know, people are are meeting with their local growers and saying, hey, you know, why aren't you growing watermelon radish?
00:33:25
Cindy Finneseth
And then that grower thinks, well, maybe I should try that. And then they'll they'll try a little something new. And so I think that that's been really exciting to see over the last several years is kind of that that idea about purchasing local and and buying from, you know, local producer, whether that's, you know, ornamentals or that's, you know food products or, you know, other types of artisan products that people have out there at different types of markets.
00:33:49
Plant People
There's things that supported that, like the cottage laws and things and home-based processing, microprocessing. And I've seen advancements just over time in Kentucky to do friendly legislation support farmers markets and producers that are of a smaller scale and larger scale producers. So it's exciting to kind of see that add to the fabric that kind of makes up, you know, horticulture in Kentucky. So those producer friendly, you know, elements that are put into place. it was pretty cool.
00:34:19
Brett
Yeah. one One of my favorite things about doing this podcast is we get to talk to people and just sort of like ask their perspectives on things and just hear it's time set aside to talk in a way that we normally don't. But so I have two questions. I have one that's a little bit more,
00:34:33
Brett
ah what can we do differently or better? And another one that's a little bit more
Addressing Consumer Perception of Pricing
00:34:39
Brett
positive. I'll start, I'll start with the, the, the first one. So if you had a magic wand that worked on the world of horticulture in Kentucky or in the region, where would you turn that magic wand to first in order to make changes that you would like to see the,
00:35:02
Brett
this industry, this community, et cetera? Like where would be some of the places that you would point your magic wand to make a change overnight or instantly?
00:35:13
Cindy Finneseth
Wow. So many. Do I only get three wishes? Is this like a rub the lamp betweenie sort of thing?
00:35:17
Brett
No, no, no, no. Just the first ones, the first couple that come to mind. Yeah.
00:35:22
Cindy Finneseth
um So so i think pricing is one thing um that that consumers, you know, we tend to be very price conscious. And I wish that uh consumers particularly those that don't have a farming background or understand like what it takes to bring a product to the marketplace that that they understood um like what that true cost is and and we're rec super receptive to to paying prices that really cover production costs plus a small profit for our growers um i think that that would be one thing is sort of this um I don't know, transparency and pricing or whatever of like, well, no, really, this is what it costs to bring this product here. And there being the luxury of people being like, sure.
00:36:11
Cindy Finneseth
I don't, you know, $2 for a tomato. ye That's cheap. Let me pay you three, you know, that sort of thing. Like, like to me, that would be great if there was not that disconnect between, um, kind of price, uh, willingness to pay and like what it really costs to, to bring something to market. I think that would be like, like the magic wand sort of thing of like, like if there was a way to make, make that happen, um, that, and then it it has surprised me.
00:36:41
Cindy Finneseth
Like, ah um not that I think, i I mean, I don't subscribe to a plant-based diet only. eat meat, all of that. um But it surprises me how many people do not eat vegetables. That astounds me that that there are people who, I mean how could you not eat a vegetable, right? Like, and I think about that, like, what would that meal look like that had zero vegetables in it? And I and i would you know include this to be like produce. um And I wish that there was more, um
00:37:12
Cindy Finneseth
like like that that was easier for people and that people were were more excited and more interested and willing to take risks on certain you know but vegetables that maybe aren't common to them i guess that would be kind of the other thing is like just the abundant produce for people you know to have um and and be receptive to it uh i think that that um
00:37:34
Brett
Yeah.
00:37:36
Cindy Finneseth
that, that, that would be another good thing. Yeah. But all the other things too, right? Like unlimited capital availability, you know, lenders, you know, that's kind of a struggle sometimes for horticulture operations to explain that to a lender of, oh yeah, for sure.
00:37:49
Plant People
Access to labor. Ooh.
00:37:52
Cindy Finneseth
Like unlimited labor availability, all the things, right?
00:37:52
Plant People
Capital labor, all the things.
00:37:56
Cindy Finneseth
That's why I was asking, like, am limited? But I mean, you know, there's, there's a lot of things that could be improved for sure within the whole, you know,
00:37:58
Brett
yeah
00:37:58
Plant People
Unlimited wishes.
00:38:06
Cindy Finneseth
value chain
00:38:08
Brett
Yeah. Well, I think that, I mean, it reflects your more, you what you were saying earlier, that you, you focus on the production stuff, but you have this broader thing that you're, you know, you first think about this, like nexus of like the consumer purchasing decision as like this, you
Diversity in Crops and Market Channels
00:38:22
Brett
know, mechanism.
00:38:22
Brett
And as opposed to saying, i just really wish we had varieties that were more resistant to ah whatever.
00:38:27
Cindy Finneseth
pests or diseases
00:38:29
Brett
It's like, okay, that's one, that's another, and that's another way to, that's right.
00:38:29
Cindy Finneseth
exactly no tests or diseases could i
00:38:34
Brett
That's interesting.
00:38:35
Cindy Finneseth
No Japanese beetles at all.
00:38:35
Brett
So,
00:38:37
Cindy Finneseth
yeah
00:38:37
Brett
my other My other question, which is is a little bit more of ah a, I don't know. I mean, and that one was challenges. And this is more, if, as you think about your experience before, you know, ah before this job in general, and then also within this job.
00:38:54
Brett
If there's something about Kentucky horticulture, the horticulture in general, maybe that you wish people knew or could see or experience or have heard that you've heard and seen, what would that be?
00:39:06
Plant People
So...
00:39:12
Cindy Finneseth
Mm-hmm.
00:39:15
Cindy Finneseth
Well, um you know, a big thing is that about seasonality is that, that yeah, absolutely. We can produce 12 months of the year. um You know, that I wish that that more people realize that because when we do farm to school, you know, that's one of the things we hear immediately is, well, we can't buy from growers because they only have it in the summer. And, and you know, that's not 100 percent accurate. um You know, there there are, um you know, options year round. And I wish that that people knew that a little bit more. um And, you know Ray touched on it before of like just the diversity of horticulture. Like when you think of all of the plants that can be grown in Kentucky, all of the crops that can be grown, you know, um like we really have a an abundance of options. And I think that that sometimes our commodity folks um don't appreciate that as much of like, you know, like like they're focused on one crop, one animal system. And like, like we got to master a master.
00:40:15
Cindy Finneseth
you know We have so many different you know crops, market channels, like like all the things. like If you looked at the matrix, it is it is huge. and ah and I wish that you know kind of our ah colleagues in agriculture appreciated that a little bit more, that that you know horticulture isn't just cute of like, oh, those are pretty flowers.
00:40:36
Cindy Finneseth
you know that like Yeah, we we produce a lot of nutritive value in in fruits and vegetables. And, you know, that would that that would be something of, like, people just realizing, like, just what the breadth of horticulture is.
00:40:49
Cindy Finneseth
it's It's, you know, immense. You know, when you look at native plants all the way through highly cultivated things, you know, and and like I feel for horticulture agents, right, like, you've got to be able to answer questions on all that.
00:41:01
Cindy Finneseth
You you never know what the question is you're going to get.
00:41:03
Plant People
Sometimes my answer is, let me call Cindy or let me call you know Rachel.
00:41:05
Cindy Finneseth
yeah
00:41:06
Plant People
Let me call somebody on campus.
00:41:08
Cindy Finneseth
Let me get back to you tomorrow.
00:41:08
Plant People
I'll get right back with you. Yeah, that's my answer. Yeah.
00:41:11
Cindy Finneseth
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:11
Plant People
It takes a system. Yeah.
00:41:12
Cindy Finneseth
For sure. Uh-huh.
00:41:14
Brett
Yeah. Sometimes when I get into those agricultural audiences and they hear center for crop diversification, they think about diversifying an operation means adding like winter wheat to your rotation. And I'm like, well, no, there's hundreds of specialty crops and everybody wants to know the answer about the one that they're interested in.
00:41:30
Brett
And it's going to take a second to get back on to you on about Malabar spinach, but we'll see what we can do.
00:41:37
Plant People
hey specifically that one crop that no one has ever grown in Kentucky, which is exciting, but also a challenge sometimes.
00:41:47
Plant People
But yeah, yeah. Keeps, keeps life interesting.
00:41:49
Brett
Yeah.
00:41:51
Cindy Finneseth
For sure.
00:41:52
Brett
Well, I had a feeling we weren't going to get to houseplant propagation and that gives us a good excuse to to invite you back for another episode, but
00:41:57
Plant People
We propagated other ideas.
00:41:59
Cindy Finneseth
I know when I made all these notes and I had all these talking points I wanted to cover.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:42:04
Cindy Finneseth
man
00:42:04
Brett
Well, hold on to them because we will we will plan to to have you back because people would definitely love to to hear more about ah that as well. But I really appreciate you taking the chance to or taking the time to talk with us and for being on the pod.
00:42:15
Brett
Finally, we have some people who are like, how have they not been on the pod yet? And you were definitely one of them.
00:42:19
Plant People
Mm-hmm.
00:42:20
Brett
So we're glad to. ah to have you as a guest. um To our audience, if you have not yet listened to me or Alexis, beg you to leave us a rating or a like or a a review, depending on where you're listening, please do that. Take two seconds to do that. It makes a big difference for us.
00:42:38
Brett
You can email us. ah That'll be in the show notes. You can also follow us on Instagram, Hort Culture Podcast, and let us know what you want to hear next or if you what episodes you've been enjoying lately, pictures of your garden. You can tag us as well.
00:42:53
Brett
um Thank you all so much for being here. Thank you, Cindy, for joining us, and we'll see you next time.
00:43:00
Cindy Finneseth
Thank you.