Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the exit podcast.
Speaker: This is Dr. Bennett joined here by Scott Fishbook.
Speaker: He's a personal friend of mine and an expert on union typology.
Speaker: Some guys have trains.
Speaker: Some guys have math for Scott.
Speaker: It's Jungian typology.
Speaker: He knows everything there is to know about it.
Speaker: And great, great friend of mine.
Speaker: So welcome to the show.
Speaker: Hey, thanks, Dr. Bennett.
Speaker: Really pleased to be on a show with someone who's so educated and esteemed.
Speaker: Yeah, looking forward to it.
Speaker: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker: So let's start with a basic description of how Jungian typology works.
Speaker: So you have four categories, extrovert, introvert, sensing versus intuitive, feeling versus thinking, and perceiving versus judging.
Speaker: And two of those, I feel like are sort of popularly understood in
Speaker: Extrovert and introvert, people sort of know what that means, feeling and thinking, but they have a specific meaning in this context that we should probably explore first, and then we'll move on to the sensing and perceiving and judging, which are maybe a little more abstruse for people.
Speaker: So let's start with extrovert, introvert.
Speaker: What do we mean when we talk about that in terms of Jungian typology?
Speaker: Yeah, sure.
Speaker: And I'm sure if someone is deeply entrenched in their own Jungian typology mode, they might have a different way of looking at it.
Speaker: But in terms of the way that I'm looking at it, when I'm designating introvert or extrovert, I'm talking about a broad trend in how people tend to engage with the environment.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: is that through an externally focused lens or an internally focused lens.
Speaker: And so for extroversion, it's not just social.
Speaker: So generally when people bring up, I'm an introvert, I'm an extrovert,
Speaker: It almost exclusively has a very social bent.
Speaker: And in Jungian typology, that's not necessarily the case.
Speaker: It is often the case, but there are plenty of people who don't use their extroversion in a realm that's devoted to people.
Speaker: So to explain, you can have a dominant function of extroverted intuition.
Speaker: So like you, for instance.
Speaker: And in this scenario, what you will be generating is possibilities and ideas and essentially the way in which you manifest your extraversion is through this sort of future generation mode.
Speaker: where it's looking at everybody around you and figuring out where everyone wants to go and helping them navigate that process.
Speaker: And then you have extroverted sensing, which is in the realm of the physical, which is looking at what everyone's doing, giving people a good experience.
Speaker: So think about your excellent waiter or a great massage therapist or a model who is up on the stage strutting and,
Speaker: looking fantastic.
Speaker: So that would be extroverted sensing.
Speaker: And so in this context, an extrovert represents someone for whom their primary source of cognition is being spent outside of themselves.
Speaker: Whereas an introvert, an introvert in this case, is someone who leads with an introverted trait.
Speaker: So that could be introverted thinking, introverted feeling,
Speaker: And we can get into these a little further if there's interest.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Introvert sensing, et cetera.
Speaker: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker: Let's talk about feeling versus thinking.
Speaker: And because feeling and thinking are often framed as sort of being like logical versus illogical, rational versus irrational.
Speaker: And that's not quite what's meant here.
Speaker: So can you explore that a little bit?
Speaker: Yeah, sure.
Speaker: So
Speaker: So again, and I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but it is important to remember that everyone is everything, just not to the same degree and not most of the time.
Speaker: So a feeler will be a thinker sometimes and vice versa.
Speaker: And so with that being said, moving into the sort of general definition
Speaker: of a thinker, it's living in the realm of true and false.
Speaker: Is it true?
Speaker: Is it false?
Speaker: Is it accurate?
Speaker: So it's not about, is this a good thing?
Speaker: That's the domain of ethics and morals.
Speaker: In this case, it's, is this efficient?
Speaker: Can we do it quickly?
Speaker: Is it pure in an intellectual sense?
Speaker: So that's what we're talking about when we're talking about thinking.
Speaker: And so thinking has two flavors, introverted and extroverted.
Speaker: So introverted thinking is, does this make sense to me?
Speaker: And it's constantly pinging your environment asking that question.
Speaker: And then extroverted thinking is pinging everyone else and asking, hey, what do you guys think about this?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So it's tribe sourced logic.
Speaker: Now, the realm of feeling, it's similar.
Speaker: So we have introverted feeling.
Speaker: And that's constantly asking, like, how do I feel about this?
Speaker: Oh, I don't like this.
Speaker: this isn't right in a subjective sense.
Speaker: And then extroverted feeling is looking at the environment and noticing, okay, four people like this thing and two people like this thing.
Speaker: And so the tribe clearly values this over this.
Speaker: So this is the good thing and this is the not good thing.
Speaker: And so, yeah, that's kind of how in a really short explanation, the thinking and feeling
Speaker: looks like so like a a logical or a rational form of feeling might be i'm reading the scriptures trying to understand a moral principle and i'm looking i'm comparing different stories and i'm trying to distill a principle that's uh you know what is the right thing to do in this or that situation would that be like a form of of feeling that is uh sort of
Speaker: logical or systematic or rational uh yeah so what you're describing i think is a great example of the realm of ethics and morals so as you said kind of the f domain so so yeah to answer your question okay that so that explains extrovert introvert and feeling versus thinking let's talk about sensing versus intuitive
Speaker: So a sensing person who leads their life primarily through the sensing world is so that's either going to be introverted sensing or extroverted sensing.
Speaker: So introverted sensing is subjective.
Speaker: So
Speaker: Now, do I feel comfortable in this scenario?
Speaker: Do I feel sick?
Speaker: Am I very aware of my corporeal or bodily experience?
Speaker: So is, whereas extroverted sensing is looking outward and saying, am I giving a good experience?
Speaker: Am I, do I look good for everybody?
Speaker: Am I dominating in a physical way?
Speaker: Am I like, so these type SE dominants tend to have strong physical presence.
Speaker: And SIs tend to be more enduring.
Speaker: So they can, as they are sensitive to their physical experience, they can continue their process.
Speaker: So these ones have a strong long-term memory, generally speaking, and do well once they have patterns and systems in place that they can follow.
Speaker: uh, SC users respond to the moment.
Speaker: So they put most of their energy into what's in front of me right now.
Speaker: And so, um, that's, and, and, and, yeah.
Speaker: So, uh, a comparison that occurs to me and you tell me if this is off base.
Speaker: Um, so, uh, my, uh,
Speaker: My sort of worst trait in my typology is SE.
Speaker: And like that makes sense to me from a sense of like catching and passing a ball, knowing who's open like basketball, football.
Speaker: That was always sort of out of the question for me.
Speaker: I could never get my head around it.
Speaker: But SI is...
Speaker: is much sort of higher in the stack for me, introverted sensing.
Speaker: And I find that I really enjoy like weightlifting because it's very much this sensation that's internal to the self.
Speaker: And it's about the feeling of the muscle and the feeling of the movement and like it's all inside.
Speaker: And so is that an illustration of the difference or is that still kind of an extroverted sensing?
Speaker: What you described is more common with extroverted sensors, but the way you described it is relating to introverted sensing.
Speaker: So like the corporeal experience, like being in your body,
Speaker: And that generally does relate to SE.
Speaker: You'll find a lot more SE users in the gym.
Speaker: But that said, yeah, I'm kind of parsing that in my head, sort of distinguishing which of the two it is.
Speaker: I would honestly say that's more extroverted sensing.
Speaker: So that's probably you exploring territory that, um, feels unnatural.
Speaker: Um, but that said, if I remember correctly, you're doing it within the realms of your personal comfort.
Speaker: Like you're, you're slowly expanding that space.
Speaker: Uh, and, and yeah, for an ENFP, that's super commendable.
Speaker: It's that's, that's really good.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: you'll find a lot of personal growth by working on that particular space.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So that's sensing and the counterpart to that is intuition.
Speaker: So tell me about specifically the difference between intuition and sensing, and then we'll go into extroverted intuition, introverted intuition.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: So the difference, yeah, the biggest one and the easiest one to pick up on is just the things that intuitive types talk about versus the things that sensing types talk about.
Speaker: So in a conversation, the sensing types will tend to want to pull it down from the lofty to the concrete.
Speaker: And I'm not saying they're not intelligent or smart.
Speaker: I mean that they're putting a foot in the abstract and then as quickly as possible, bringing out the treasure from that zone to be applied practically.
Speaker: How does it cash out?
Speaker: They want to explore that space so that they can exploit it.
Speaker: Like it's not like they're intrinsically as interested in that as an intuitive type.
Speaker: They want to get what they can get out of it to use.
Speaker: Yeah, or they just, yeah, it's a sort of sense of comfort.
Speaker: So yeah, it is about practical utility, as you said.
Speaker: So it's not an end within itself.
Speaker: It's a territory that they'll conquer and then bring back the wisdom.
Speaker: Now, not to be super abstract, but I listened to some of your podcasts and I think one of them that was exceedingly abstract was the one you had with, I'm trying to remember his name, but he was in Miami and he was, as you said, a tech bro.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: There were tons of analogies everywhere.
Speaker: Everything was abstract almost.
Speaker: And it was kind of crazy to listen to.
Speaker: And what I mean by that is they'll say something.
Speaker: Well, how can I distill this to answer your question?
Speaker: So the abstract person is going to be talking about ideas and concepts.
Speaker: And then the concrete person is going to be describing something in a way that you could
Speaker: in your mind, see it.
Speaker: You can look at the thing that they're describing.
Speaker: If they're telling a story,
Speaker: like they'll say things like he was super sweaty and there was sweat dripping down his face and he was bent over and panting.
Speaker: It's sensory.
Speaker: It doesn't exist in the ethereal or the platonic or the world of models or forms.
Speaker: It's a sensory experience.
Speaker: So that, I mean, I think that connects the intuition of it.
Speaker: Well, that's funny.
Speaker: It connects my idea of sensing to this concept.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: our friend Adam is a sensing type and he tells a story of how he got in trouble in high school once.
Speaker: And it's so rich with detail and like, then this happened and then this happened, but it's, but it's very, he's not telling you anything about like what it all meant or how it all felt or, or, um,
Speaker: sort of the big picture ramifications of it.
Speaker: It's very in the moment.
Speaker: And, you know, uh, what's cool about that is it's still interesting to an intuitive type like myself, because I read the details and then I do the work of deciding what it means.
Speaker: And so I almost feel like there's a, there's a, maybe a gift for being a novelist in that kind of type, because they don't, um,
Speaker: They don't hand you what it means because that can be sort of off-putting.
Speaker: They just want to give you this portrait, this picture of a scene of an event.
Speaker: And then you kind of get to do the exercise of extrapolating meaning.
Speaker: And I actually had occasion to talk to his mom and dad about...
Speaker: that particular situation, which sort of got them in trouble too.
Speaker: And we talked about what it all meant.
Speaker: And so I think that's maybe an illustration of the difference here is that we both can understand both of those experiences, but our sort of preference and our inclination and our first take on it is
Speaker: you know, he's about the details and the experience of it sensorily.
Speaker: And I'm about, okay, what does this tell me about the big picture about moral principles about sort of the meaning of life?
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker: And I love SEO hero storytellers.
Speaker: So people that lead with extroverted sensing, in my experience, are the best.
Speaker: Like, I love sitting there and listening to it.
Speaker: So probably similar to you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's sensing and intuitive.
Speaker: That makes some sense.
Speaker: Maybe you could call that abstract versus concrete.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That has its own...
Speaker: loss of detail, but that's another way to think about it.
Speaker: And then you've got perceiving versus judging.
Speaker: So tell me about what, let's go into the introvert extrovert after we just discuss the distinction between perceiving and judging.
Speaker: Okay, so perceiving, it means in your top two functions, you have a S or an N. So perceiving types have a strong gathering mentality of information.
Speaker: So a perceiver takes in the information and the place where they're critical is internally.
Speaker: So a perceiver will take in like the,
Speaker: the outside world and the place where they're critical of it is inside.
Speaker: So I guess, and how does that look?
Speaker: So these people tend to be the rule breakers, the perceivers, because where they find their identity and sense of truth or right and wrong comes inside.
Speaker: Whereas for the judges,
Speaker: David Apsley, That sense of right and wrong comes from the tribe so so the judging types pick up on and then seek to instill externalized sets of values or logic, whereas the perceivers.
Speaker: It's very subjective.
Speaker: It's a place of identity.
Speaker: So an ESTP is going to physically break the rules.
Speaker: So they're going to be like your skater types.
Speaker: And then this is also true for the ESFP.
Speaker: So essentially, it's about where does your source of order come from?
Speaker: And so for the perceivers, it comes internally.
Speaker: whereas for the judges, it comes from the outside.
Speaker: And then that manifests by, yeah, I don't know if you can extrapolate the answer from that.
Speaker: Is conforming versus non-conforming too oversimplified?
Speaker: Is there a way that you could distinguish it from that?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, there's gradients of it.
Speaker: So obviously, the most conforming, the ones that seek to conform or create conformity, tends to be the J types.
Speaker: But I find that to be most true of the SJs.
Speaker: But yeah, I do think you can make that very broad picture with the types.
Speaker: So conformity versus nonconformity.
Speaker: I'm thinking of exceptions, but generally that seems to be the case.
Speaker: Well, and maybe as we dig a little bit deeper, we can explore those exceptions.
Speaker: But if it gives us sort of a framework to start from.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, and you mentioned the SJ types, and this is a good point.
Speaker: So we've explored the four types.
Speaker: This is a good opportunity to go into these Kiersey temperaments, which a researcher named Kiersey came up with, but it doesn't make any difference.
Speaker: You've got the guardian type, which is sensing and judging.
Speaker: So these are, like we said, if it's abstract versus concrete, these people are concrete and more conformist.
Speaker: And so you've got the artisan type, which is sensing and perceiving.
Speaker: So these people are concrete, but they are nonconformist or more sort of rule breaking.
Speaker: You've got the idealists, which are intuitive feelers, which means they live in the world of abstract concepts and they are particularly interested in questions of value and right and wrong and good and bad.
Speaker: And then you've got the rationalists who live in that same world of abstract concepts, but they're more considered about like, is it factual?
Speaker: Is it coherent?
Speaker: Is it precise?
Speaker: Is it pure?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So tell us a little bit about, well, so my friend Adam that we were just talking about, he's done a similar thing to what you've done in terms of taking these basic models and elaborating them substantially.
Speaker: But he sticks with just the four temperament types.
Speaker: Whereas you explore, there's a full 16 combinations of all these traits.
Speaker: And so going from four to 16 obviously introduces a ton of detail and complexity that can be a little bit hard to follow.
Speaker: So there's a trade off there where you are trading in some complexity and some difficulty and making it harder to explain potentially in exchange for some value.
Speaker: So what do you think is the added value from breaking it out further?
Speaker: Uh, you can, uh, be highly customizable with your approach.
Speaker: Uh, I would say that is the most obvious added value.
Speaker: Maybe give me an example of, uh, let's say two types of rationalists who are meaningfully different enough when you break it out into the 16 types that, uh, it's worth exploring that instead of just saying, ah, you're both rationalists.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So first off, and I thought you explained it really well, there is a trade-off between ease of use and complexity.
Speaker: So yeah, just agreeing with what you said earlier.
Speaker: Now, in the case of, okay, if we're comparing two rationalists, let's compare myself and an ENTGA.
Speaker: So you're an INTP, first of all, right?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So that's introverted, abstract, concerned with questions of fact, and nonconformist.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And so the most obvious way that you were going to differentiate an INTP and an ENTJ is in cognitive functions.
Speaker: So if you break down the cognitive functions of an INTP, you have TI dominant, extroverted intuiting parent or second, and then you have SI, and at the very bottom, you have FE, right?
Speaker: Now let's contrast that with the ENTJ who leads with extroverted thinking, follows with introverted intuition, then has extroverted sensing and introverted feeling.
Speaker: So if you notice, as I'm saying those things, they're literally the opposite of each other.
Speaker: So what that means is, whereas the INTP is a source of personal identity, logic, coherence, and accuracy, extroverted thinkers
Speaker: are pulling in all of the introverted thinking of the tribe and then choosing one.
Speaker: So they are essentially an organizer of tribe thought.
Speaker: And then moving down, extrovert intuitive in the INTP manifests as what does everybody want?
Speaker: So they're driven to find out what the group wants, where the group is headed.
Speaker: They're about creating patterns.
Speaker: Whereas NI is about taking all those patterns and distilling it into their own personal future.
Speaker: And then you can continue all the way down with like a breakdown of the functions.
Speaker: But my point here.
Speaker: So it might be good.
Speaker: You know, I'm realizing that in order to answer that question, you sort of have to deal with the hierarchy of cognitive functions.
Speaker: And that's immensely complex.
Speaker: And it's a challenge to articulate.
Speaker: I think maybe in this case,
Speaker: I think you've done a good job though of like the ENTJ is very much like personally motivated by like we're going to take all the tribe's ideas and we're going to do what I want to do.
Speaker: We're going to head toward my goal.
Speaker: And you're reversed, which is I want to talk about what I think and
Speaker: we're going to sort of, you're, you're almost, you're almost producers and consumers of, of corresponding functions.
Speaker: Like ENTJ, you're going to tell ENTJ what to think.
Speaker: He's going to tell you what to do.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So, okay.
Speaker: That's, that's really interesting.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: There's a hierarchy of cognitive function.
Speaker: Like you said, everybody does everything, but they do them at a different remove or a different order.
Speaker: And you mentioned that there's hero, parent, child, inferior.
Speaker: Those are the four main ones.
Speaker: And then lower down the stack, you have nemesis, critic, trickster, demon.
Speaker: And this is where it's sort of...
Speaker: It gets complex to the point that a lot of people will just sort of write it off as, as, as woo.
Speaker: And as, as you know, kind of made up as an ENFP, I don't particularly care whether or not it's woo.
Speaker: Like I find it fun and useful either way.
Speaker: But so the distinction has to do with whether, first of all, it's in order of how often you use them and how much you prefer them.
Speaker: But it has to do with, are you skilled at it?
Speaker: And are you sort of optimistic or pessimistic about how you apply it?
Speaker: So the hero, the primary function is something that you're good at and you know you're good at it and it's optimistic, it's exploratory, it's conquering sort of.
Speaker: And then the parent function, which is the next one down the stack, is you're still good at it, but it's pessimistic, it's protective, it's self-defensive, it's sort of wary and looking out.
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: So tell me about your stack and how that caches out for you, the hero and the parent function.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, oh, and great synopsis.
Speaker: That's exactly how it works.
Speaker: And two, I don't know if this is meaningful to your viewership, but it does mean a lot to me that the system works.
Speaker: So I recognize and sort of take in the fact that for most people, this sort of realm is
Speaker: woo-woo and esoteric, but for me personally, it's very important that things cohere, make sense, and can be applied to reality.
Speaker: And thus far, in my experience, it works very well.
Speaker: Although, admittedly, it has taken a long time to reach the degree of expertise where
Speaker: The complexity doesn't overwhelm the practical application.
Speaker: Now, returning to my functional stack and the question, if I remember, was how does that break down for me personally?
Speaker: Well, specifically for the hero and the parent, because I want to talk about the distinction because you can go into like, I'm better at this, I'm worse at this.
Speaker: But the distinction I'm interested in is I'm optimistic versus I'm pessimistic.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: when it comes, in my case, when it comes to TI Hero, I volunteer my thoughts all the time.
Speaker: Like, this is what I think.
Speaker: Even when people aren't particularly interested, I'm like, here, let me just lambast you with tons of ideas.
Speaker: And so my natural propensity is just to go bounding
Speaker: into the intellectual territory of ideas and talk about them.
Speaker: And then moving down, and so that's what the optimistic element of it looks like.
Speaker: So I'll share an idea and I'll be like, here's an idea, here's an idea, here's another one.
Speaker: And that's because there's a certain facility towards understanding what I think is true, right?
Speaker: If something comes easily to you,
Speaker: um handing it out and dropping it off you're not as careful with it even though you're perhaps gifted with it uh you and then moving down and this is true of every function in that in that space uh so so yeah that's how the optimism looks it's like oh uh um okay moving so my well so just to compare so my hero function is extroverted intuition and um
Speaker: You mentioned I'm going to throw out a million ideas.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: An idea can mean more than one thing, right?
Speaker: So because my function is,
Speaker: You're doing introverted thinking.
Speaker: I'm doing extroverted intuition.
Speaker: But they both involve throwing a ton of ideas at people.
Speaker: They're just different types of idea.
Speaker: So you're like throwing sort of like factual concepts.
Speaker: Like here's what I think.
Speaker: Here's what I've sort of deduced or decided about a question of fact.
Speaker: And what I do on all these phone calls, these one-on-one calls as part of exit group is I listen to other people's cognition and their feeling and where they're at.
Speaker: And I throw a bunch of ideas at them in the sense of here are some possibilities.
Speaker: Here are some tracks you could take.
Speaker: Here are some things you could do.
Speaker: It's ideas in the sense of,
Speaker: directions and paths to travel versus just sort of ideas in the sense of being concepts or calculations or deductions.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So yeah, that's, that's a great example.
Speaker: And that is exactly how extroverted intuition works.
Speaker: Although I will say this, a lot of times, ENFPs are very capable of doing this, but they sometimes don't.
Speaker: So I would actually say in this case, you're really extending yourself by putting yourself in a situation where
Speaker: you're providing a lot of value to the tribe.
Speaker: Whereas a lot of times ENFPs tend to do the possibility generation primarily in a sort of contractual like quid pro quo kind of way.
Speaker: So I would say in this case, you're sort of stepping out of the bounds of what is, and this breaks down to like interest versus systematic and other elements.
Speaker: Yeah, so I think what you're doing with your guys is really commendable and awesome.
Speaker: And so it's basically like using your superpowers for good, which is cool.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: So that's both of our hero functions.
Speaker: And then so what's your parent function?
Speaker: Parent function is extroverted intuition.
Speaker: So your hero function is my parent function.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And so how, how the fact that it's your parent function, how does your use of that differ from mine?
Speaker: Um, I'm more of a cautionary guy.
Speaker: I'm like, I can see what you want and, you know, here's some things you could do, but yeah, it's more, um, like maybe this doesn't, Hey, Hey, watch out.
Speaker: Maybe this doesn't get you what you want.
Speaker: Yeah, that's exactly the flavor of it that I have.
Speaker: And that would be true for most INTPs.
Speaker: So when they engage in, and that's not saying they always do it that way, but it is that way frequently.
Speaker: And then that's a good voice to listen to.
Speaker: So like you'll have your optimistic options
Speaker: And you're, you're, I guess you're more judicious, um, uh, more cautious options coming from any parent.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And then, so my parent is FI, which is, which is, do I think this is right or good?
Speaker: And, um, it's very much, um,
Speaker: It's very much about conscience.
Speaker: And yeah, that's definitely my place of caution is I'm constantly sort of examining myself.
Speaker: Like, I don't know if this is right.
Speaker: I don't know if I feel good about this.
Speaker: And so, yeah, that's the sense in which it is pessimistic.
Speaker: What would an optimistic FI be like?
Speaker: A parent FI.
Speaker: So they would be comparatively less interested.
Speaker: So each function is attached to another.
Speaker: And this is a good time to mention that.
Speaker: So fi is connected to te.
Speaker: So a person that sources their sense of value internally sources logic externally.
Speaker: And so in this case, you will lean a little more into tribe logic
Speaker: when weighing your sense of value so you'll you'll go to the group more frequently than an fi hero to find out what they think about your emotional response does that make sense uh so that like an infp is is more confident about like this is right i don't care what anybody thinks
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, they still care.
Speaker: Yeah, and I'm more like, I have this strong feeling, but I'm going to go check up.
Speaker: I'm going to go see what people think.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: That sounds right.
Speaker: That sounds right to me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So then you've got the child function, which is weaker than the parent function, and it's optimistic.
Speaker: And you and I were talking about this earlier.
Speaker: You mentioned that it's sort of like,
Speaker: a little kid playing and like when they get in trouble, when they, when, when something goes wrong, it's a total surprise to them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They're, they're, they're blindsided by it.
Speaker: And my child function is extroverted thinking.
Speaker: And I asked you, how do you, how do you screw up extroverted thinking?
Speaker: And you mentioned like, well, you'll just absorb ideas.
Speaker: And if they seem good, like you'll just accept them as fact.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's 100% true for me as far as, and that's, so my Twitter account is very much critical on questions of value and totally uninterested in questions of fact.
Speaker: And like, so, so I'll be constantly talking about like, look at these interdimensional psychic pedophile vampires and all the horrible things they're doing to everybody.
Speaker: But when it comes to like, oh, do you think that there's like a Nazi moon base on Antarctica or on the dark side of the moon?
Speaker: I'm like, yeah, like, sure.
Speaker: Why not?
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Cool, bro.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So it's just sort of, and that as my child function, that makes sense.
Speaker: Like it's, it's a fun space to play in, but like, I don't, and, and, you know, you can get in trouble if you, if you absorb, um,
Speaker: Well, I mean, that's ultimately how I got doxxed is I was exploring dangerous ideas and people didn't like that.
Speaker: And it got me in real big trouble.
Speaker: And so that totally makes sense as a child function.
Speaker: So your child function is introverted sensing, which is like comfort and the experience of being in the body.
Speaker: Can you explain maybe the...
Speaker: the innocence and the optimism and also potentially the danger of that function.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's easy for me to explain that because I experience it every day and I'm aware of it.
Speaker: So SI is loyal and it does what it's always done.
Speaker: That's what SI does.
Speaker: And in the child function, it's really naive.
Speaker: So it's about being comfortable all the time, just all the time being comfortable.
Speaker: I'm going to watch and especially in the INTPs, we're consuming type.
Speaker: So we'll consume information in massive quantities.
Speaker: And then and we'll we'll consume similar flavors of info.
Speaker: And so we're we are the type that will sit down and watch movies for eight hours or or insert whatever it happens to be.
Speaker: It may not be movies.
Speaker: Maybe it's the typology.
Speaker: Yeah, maybe it's Jungian typology.
Speaker: And so it's the basement dwelling Dorito desk guy on his computer that never leaves his house and stays within the known in terms of a physical sense.
Speaker: So an SI parent
Speaker: how would, how would that differ?
Speaker: Like, you're still optimistic, but like, you're, you're like strong.
Speaker: Yeah, so SI parent, they have a much greater sense of what is expected and what is known and what's happened in the past.
Speaker: And you have to remember though, SI parents are the guardians.
Speaker: And so the way that looks is I remember what made me uncomfortable.
Speaker: I remember it and I'm going to avoid it.
Speaker: So they are more responsible than SI child.
Speaker: They remember their patterns, their routines, and they seek to uphold them and maintain them.
Speaker: Whereas for an INTP or an INFP, which are both SI child,
Speaker: there's less of an interest in establishing a routine.
Speaker: So in spite of the fact that they thrive and do a great, get a great deal out of routine, they don't seek to instill it on themselves.
Speaker: So it's, it's more about how do I feel in the body right now versus taking care of the set of me across space and time, like, like, you know,
Speaker: I not only care about how I feel right now, I care about how I'm going to feel.
Speaker: And so maybe I'm not going to eat the Doritos.
Speaker: Like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's perfect because so the higher up introverted sensing is the more attuned you are to the future you and your physical comfort.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's really cool.
Speaker: So, um,
Speaker: So that's, that's, and then, and then you've got the inferior function, which is sort of the first one that like you're bad at and you sort of know you're bad at it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Tell me a little bit.
Speaker: So your extrovert feeling, that's your inferior function, which is what are the tribe's values?
Speaker: What, what, what does everybody have?
Speaker: What's everybody's moral conclusions or value conclusions, good and bad?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So how is that an inferior function for you?
Speaker: How does that cash out?
Speaker: It comes out as a nervousness that I will fail socially.
Speaker: And so less and less the case as I add experiences to my life.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But again, that SI child wants to be comfortable and they know that these these this social environment can be exhausting and tiring.
Speaker: And so why expand that territory if I can return to the places that are safe for me?
Speaker: And so FE, it's like I've tried to pay a lot of attention to it.
Speaker: And so I seek out.
Speaker: So, hey, hey, how are you feeling?
Speaker: How are you doing?
Speaker: Do you like the information that I'm giving you?
Speaker: um is yeah you do you do uh you you check in quite a lot on yeah is this and again it's it to say that it's moral values is not quite right in this context because it's more like am i boring or annoying you like do you think i'm do you think i'm a bad person not in a moral sense but like in a like i just don't i dislike you sense i
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, it's less, and I'm not saying FE is shallow, but given that it's pinging off the tribe and it's sourcing all of these ideas in this sort of like,
Speaker: grassroots kind of way.
Speaker: And then in the case of the INTP, it's doing it like kind of nervously.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because they remember their bad experiences, right?
Speaker: From SI.
Speaker: And so it puts it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But that said, INTPs will experience their greatest growth in this category.
Speaker: So SI is about obligation.
Speaker: And FE is about delivering value to people that they like and appreciate in an emotional sense.
Speaker: And so an INTP has perfect ease within the intellectual realm, but they'll be more balanced if they develop these traditions of social engagement that sort of enriched their life along with providing value to the tribe.
Speaker: Well, so like I have to routinize
Speaker: the gym, uh, because if I don't routine eyes that I won't choose to do it.
Speaker: And routine is a big challenge for me.
Speaker: So my, my, my inferior is SI.
Speaker: Um, and my, which means my, my demon, my bottom, uh, quality, my lowest, uh, trait is extroverted sensing.
Speaker: And so I, in order to experience that growth, I have to step into that sort of realm of the routine.
Speaker: and make it something that I do without thinking on that basis.
Speaker: But I'm the type of guy who thinks about what needs to happen all the time.
Speaker: And so like, it's very easy and very natural for me to talk myself out of what I need to do.
Speaker: Because I'm constantly in that evaluative state.
Speaker: Like, is this a good or bad thing to do?
Speaker: And so the way that you need to routinize social interaction
Speaker: is similar to the way that I need to routinize physical exercise and, and sort of caring for my physical appearance and my physical comfort.
Speaker: So like you're, you're you should probably like have, I know you have like a weekly meeting where you talk about these archetypes with a small group.
Speaker: And that's probably really, really good for you because like,
Speaker: you might be inclined to not feel like doing that and go hide out.
Speaker: But this is like, I know it's going to be good for me.
Speaker: I know it's going to be a positive experience and it's going to involve some growth and I need to put it into my life deliberately.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Amen.
Speaker: So, um,
Speaker: In our group, we actually have lots of guys like you.
Speaker: The folks that have sort of, I haven't like done any polling, but we just got started talking about these archetypes and the self-reported.
Speaker: I know that you feel like the self-reports are not always great.
Speaker: And we'll talk about that in a second.
Speaker: But according to self-reporting, we've got like four or five INTPs like you, three ENFPs that we include, including myself,
Speaker: some ISTPs, some ENTPs, and then a bunch of other one-off types.
Speaker: Do you have any thoughts on why this idea or this group might particularly appeal to INTPs?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I find that INTPs have such a strong sense of identity that's disconnected from fitting in with the tribe, right?
Speaker: Because their tribe function, the only one they've got, is in their inferior slot.
Speaker: it makes it difficult in terms of fitting in.
Speaker: And so at a certain point, and also because of that, they identify with the fringes, like the edge, because they're just like, I don't get why fitting in matters so much.
Speaker: But then at a certain point, like later in life, they'll be like, I feel lonely.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I feel bad and I don't know how to fix it.
Speaker: And gosh, it's so hard.
Speaker: And then sometimes that can turn into resentment.
Speaker: Sometimes that can turn into arrogance.
Speaker: So they can think, oh, and this is easy for an INTP because, you know, they have such a strong TI.
Speaker: They're just like, ah, the reason I don't fit in is everyone is dumb or like,
Speaker: is because no one gets my genius or some flavor of that.
Speaker: And if that's the case for AITPs out there, I understand and I would caution to avoid that mentality as much as possible.
Speaker: But it is, I mean, the whole concept of being doxxed is fundamentally about
Speaker: my introverted thinking got me in trouble with the tribe.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: And so it's like, screw you.
Speaker: I'm going to keep doing my introverted thinking and I'm going to organize my life in whatever way I have to so that I can keep doing this because it's important and I'm right and you're stupid.
Speaker: Well, I can't say I don't feel that way.
Speaker: And I mean, obviously, so one of the ways in which
Speaker: that can become a problem.
Speaker: So I will say, you know, what you're saying sounds right on because the two things that I have encountered in my one-on-one calls with the guys is everybody's like, I'm tired of not having a community.
Speaker: And everybody's like, the path that I'm on is not delivering meaning.
Speaker: And so, yeah, they want community, they want meaning.
Speaker: And, you know, hopefully what I'm providing in part is, so I've got that extroverted thinking child and hopefully, so last night we had this call where five different people presented their business ideas and they were just the coolest ideas.
Speaker: And I, I,
Speaker: I had, I had sort of extracted these from the one-on-one calls and I was like, that idea is amazing.
Speaker: Everyone needs to hear about it.
Speaker: And, um, so as that sort of extroverted thinking child, I'm taking the, the, the groups TI, all of their cool ideas.
Speaker: And I'm in a really optimistic way.
Speaker: I'm like, these ideas are great.
Speaker: We're going to tell everybody.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: And then sort of once they've explained their idea, we invite the group to sort of pick them apart is the wrong word because it wasn't negative at all, but like explore them.
Speaker: Like what if you did it this way and what would this mean?
Speaker: And like, so it's very much the, my hero function, which is extroverted intuition, which is options.
Speaker: What do we do?
Speaker: What course do we take?
Speaker: Does the group take for the good of the group?
Speaker: And
Speaker: Extroverted thinking, which is what does everybody think?
Speaker: How can I synthesize it?
Speaker: How can I bring it together?
Speaker: And so it makes sense that that call was like just unbelievably fun for me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And maybe it also makes sense for these guys because they got to do their TI.
Speaker: They got to express their feelings and their thinking as part of a community that accepted those ideas and thought they were cool.
Speaker: And they also... That's tremendous.
Speaker: Like, especially for an INTP who sources so much of their identity from their intellectual space.
Speaker: So especially for the INTPs, that is so crucial.
Speaker: Yeah, and so maybe also the secondary component of that, which is the extroverted intuition, is, OK, where can we take this now?
Speaker: What can we do with this?
Speaker: How can we move the ball?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So OK, so I think that basically, I think that's enough to explain why it would appeal particularly to that type.
Speaker: The other types, so we've got some ISTPs and some ENTPs.
Speaker: Can we talk just briefly about those types and maybe where they would fit or how we could appeal to them or what it might mean to them?
Speaker: So which types again?
Speaker: ISTP and ENTP.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: ISTP, okay.
Speaker: They're going to have very different needs, both ISTPs and ENTPs.
Speaker: So ISTPs, they know what they want because they have NI in their child slot.
Speaker: And so giving them options is huge, right?
Speaker: Because they're like, oh, good.
Speaker: I can gobble up all of these options.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And do these options make sense to me?
Speaker: Okay, so probably of all the types, from what you offer, they're most likely to be able to catalyze it because they're a movement type, they get things done, they wanna get rolling as quickly as possible.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so and these are the guys that are the experience givers.
Speaker: They're the daredevils.
Speaker: They usually like biking or skiing or skateboarding or I want to say they like hiking, but that's usually for people that have SE a little lower.
Speaker: So wait, these are we're talking about ISTPs or ESTPs?
Speaker: Chris Steininger, ISTPs so ISTPs and ISTPs will have a fair bit in common.
Speaker: Chris Steininger, ISTPs though will have a stronger sense of what they think makes sense because it's TI hero.
Speaker: Chris Steininger, And then their extroverted sensing is in the parent slot so they're going to be more careful about the experience that they give other people.
Speaker: Chris Steininger, ISTPs so.
Speaker: ESTPs and ESFPs are more likely to be the pranksters to invite everybody over for a good time.
Speaker: Yeah, let's throw these experiences out.
Speaker: Whereas the ISTP and the ISFP are a lot more careful about the experiences.
Speaker: So they tend to be more subtle.
Speaker: Like if they'll want to give good gifts, I don't want to go too far into it.
Speaker: Well, so I will say the ISTPs that I've spoken to,
Speaker: are much more critical of the options that I present.
Speaker: And I don't mean that in like a negative way.
Speaker: I mean, like they'll tell me immediately why they don't think they'll work.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And other types will be like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker: Those are really good ideas.
Speaker: And I think that my inclination is to interpret that as like, I'm not delivering, but maybe for these types, it's they are...
Speaker: actually engaging with the idea in a very immediate way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so, because I mean, I do the same thing.
Speaker: I immediately sort of think about, you know, what would it mean?
Speaker: How would it go?
Speaker: And I sort of pick it apart, but I don't always share it.
Speaker: And so these guys are sort of giving me a gift, right?
Speaker: They're like, I'm going to tell you what I think about this, really.
Speaker: Yes, that's definitely the way.
Speaker: As a TI hero, and ISTPs are the other TI hero type.
Speaker: So that take is good.
Speaker: So then ENTPs.
Speaker: So ENTPs are probably not going to tell you, well, if they think, so they're FE child, so they are disagreeable and they will tell you what they think, but they're also going to weigh the social consequences of what their words will mean
Speaker: a little more heavily than, for instance, an ISTP.
Speaker: And so they're not going to want to hurt your feelings, but they're not going to lie to you either.
Speaker: And so there's a little more of a balance there.
Speaker: So what about the sort of the value that they're going to get from the group and maybe the value that they can contribute?
Speaker: So they're going to be like you in terms of getting excited about this cohesive movement.
Speaker: We're all moving forward.
Speaker: We're all moving forward.
Speaker: Like, oh, what do you want?
Speaker: How can I contribute to what you want?
Speaker: So any users, INTPs included, they want to be part of a team.
Speaker: They want to be the counselor.
Speaker: They want to be the option generator for other people's vision.
Speaker: So, oh, you want to own a house?
Speaker: Okay, okay.
Speaker: Here's some ideas on how to get a house.
Speaker: And, oh, okay, well, you could go with an apartment or you could go, maybe you build your own house, right?
Speaker: Those guys have been great for me to talk to from like what I'm doing perspective.
Speaker: Like they're sort of...
Speaker: doing for me what I'm, what I'm supposed to be doing for the group.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They're, they're helping me refine, you know, courses I could take and directions that I could go.
Speaker: And so that, that makes a ton of sense.
Speaker: Yeah, so your ENTPs are just the more ambitious and like about their ideas.
Speaker: So comparing to the INTP, the INTP will be like, hey, pump the brakes.
Speaker: Like, it's clear, Kevin, that you want this.
Speaker: And I don't know.
Speaker: Like, I don't think that's going to get you where you want.
Speaker: And the ETPs will be like, here, here's some ideas.
Speaker: Oh, you want that?
Speaker: Oh, here's.
Speaker: So it's more.
Speaker: Those guys, they tend to, from what I see, they tend to be sort of serial entrepreneurs.
Speaker: They have tons of ideas and they're executing a lot of them.
Speaker: I have a lot of these INTPs who have great ideas and I have to tell them that those ideas are really, really good.
Speaker: Like, yes, I have to I have to say, like, no, you need to do it.
Speaker: This is a great idea.
Speaker: Like, I promise.
Speaker: um yeah yeah that that makes a ton of sense and and that's me too i'm i'm in the category like like oh yeah oh yeah no no you and i have had have had tons of conversations about the value of this this this uh this young and typology thing and and um
Speaker: The fact that it's fat, cause you know, you're, you know, you're a strange bird.
Speaker: And like, I feel like a lot of these guys know that they're, that they're different.
Speaker: And so the fact that this is fascinating to me and really, and really powerful and useful to me, doesn't mean that it's useful to the tribe in a way that'll get me paid, you know?
Speaker: And, and I'm sitting here like, no, no, no, this is useful.
Speaker: You need to, you need to do it.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: So that makes a ton of sense.
Speaker: The only thing that we're missing altogether in the group is SJs, the guardian types, which makes sense since the idea here is a little bit abstract and a little bit countercultural.
Speaker: And I have this theory that guardian types are in a little bit of a tight spot right now because they're temperamentally very concerned with rules and respecting institutions.
Speaker: But the project of our governing institutions has become kind of radical and revolutionary in itself.
Speaker: So a lot of them are like, well, they're horrified by Trump because he's so transgressive and he's breaking all the norms.
Speaker: But at the same time, they're like not really comfortable with like the pink hair types, you know, burning down cities and stuff.
Speaker: So do you think that there's a way to help them resolve that difficulty and sort of reach them or are they sort of just impossible for a group like this to connect with?
Speaker: Not impossible.
Speaker: but very, very difficult.
Speaker: And I know that because I also have no, I have very minimal SGA interaction in my group as well.
Speaker: So because, okay, so there are two things that are attractive to your group.
Speaker: And one is
Speaker: being comfortable outside the bounds of conformed society.
Speaker: And then two, enjoying abstraction and possibility, none of which is directly relatable to the SJ, right?
Speaker: With the exception of perhaps an ESTJ or an ESFJ who have extroverted intuition child.
Speaker: right?
Speaker: So they can be like, oh, okay, I could get into that.
Speaker: But the ISTJ, ISFJ are going to struggle.
Speaker: Probably the most out of all the types for your particular brand.
Speaker: And I guess the way that those types are integrated, and it's different for the SFJs versus the STJs.
Speaker: So the SFJs need to see
Speaker: that everyone, everyone in the group that they care about is into this.
Speaker: And then they'll be like, okay, Tribe says this is a thing that we like.
Speaker: So I'm going to get on board.
Speaker: I'm going to support this.
Speaker: And that's, that's,
Speaker: that's, that's sort of what the vibe that I get to is that you have to create a, another tribe for them to belong to.
Speaker: And it has to be a real tribe.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Like, uh, it, it can't be, it can't be an ideological, like debating society or like a, uh,
Speaker: Sunday dinner, kids over, like that kind of tribe.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I mean, it's it's what, 40 percent of the of the population is a guardian type, right?
Speaker: Yeah, it's the majority.
Speaker: Well, I mean, yeah, a plurality.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So it's it's it's a huge swath of the population.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That.
Speaker: you know, could go one way or the other on a lot of these ideological questions because everybody's sort of transgressive now.
Speaker: Like there's not like an obvious home for them.
Speaker: And so many of our people, and I'm not talking about just exit, I'm talking about like the whole sort of counter-cultural dissident sphere.
Speaker: Everybody's talking about tribe.
Speaker: Everybody's talking about how do we make this thing real?
Speaker: And, you know, having the kids over, you know, I'm going to bring you eggs and you're going to give me a bag of sugar type of real.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And, and I think there's an instinct there.
Speaker: I don't think that our people necessarily understand that that's what those guardian types need, but there's an instinct there that that's what our group is missing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's also why they're not interested.
Speaker: And therefore, if you could develop that and build that, you know, if you build it, they will come.
Speaker: And so, you know, a big part of the reason that I'm doing this exit group is because I want enough of a group of people to be financially independent and
Speaker: whether that's just because they made a ton of money and they don't need to work anymore or because they got a remote job or, you know, they're an entrepreneur that can kind of, uh, be more mobile.
Speaker: Um, the purpose is to give all of these guys who are all over the country enough of an escape velocity that some of them can cluster and build something.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so, um,
Speaker: So, and you know, I, you know, this is a hundred guys right now.
Speaker: It's a tiny piece of a really, really big puzzle, but I feel like if I can create like a proof of concept, then maybe, maybe you become something that those people could, could belong to.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And then that's SFJs.
Speaker: And then STJs, their needs are different.
Speaker: It's basically what has been done in the past that works.
Speaker: So you need to turn them into reactionaries.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You need to tell them that what worked in the past was the Stuart monarchy on the throne of England, and we need to bring them back.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, okay.
Speaker: But, but I mean, that's, that's like a super extension of what I'm talking about.
Speaker: You're right.
Speaker: I'm just making a joke, but that's, that's the principle, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: And, and so, yeah.
Speaker: So these types for good reason are naturally resistant to change because we're alive because of the things we've done in the past, right?
Speaker: Like 10,000 generations made the right decision.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and ignoring that is dangerous, right?
Speaker: This is like our, well, okay, and I'm only, I'm trying to get into the mind of like the ISTJ or the, so like, these are like the guys they get into the professions, especially ISTJs.
Speaker: They're like the lawyers, the dentists, the doctors, the one where there's this siloed knowledge that transcends like a long period of time.
Speaker: These are the judges, the
Speaker: the tax lawyers, the accountants, like people that love bookkeeping and that's more ISTJ and then ESTJs are like your construction like- Foreman.
Speaker: Yeah, foreman.
Speaker: And then actually I find a fair bit of ESTJs hop into politics, interestingly enough.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: And I think the reason for that is they're affiliative.
Speaker: So they're seeking for group cohesion, but for a different aim than tribe values.
Speaker: They want to work with the group to accomplish tasks.
Speaker: And they follow the recipe of rules and organization.
Speaker: So it's not so much about...
Speaker: It's not so much about what's right and wrong or what's good and bad or what's true and false.
Speaker: It's about what worked in the past and how do we get it done?
Speaker: How do we get things done?
Speaker: How do we execute?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, it's by executing the way that I did that time that I executed.
Speaker: And let me teach you that way because that's the right way to do it.
Speaker: And that's very sensing.
Speaker: That's like I had this experience.
Speaker: This happened to me and I saw it and I trust that.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, so, so what I've found when I'm working with ISTJs is they really resist learning anything new, but once they learn it, it's in there forever.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, and so, so these are like your historians.
Speaker: They're the totems of, of, of humanity.
Speaker: They're the ones that remember, oh, I remember,
Speaker: Like it was yesterday, 40 years ago when I saw that snake and that's the one you want to avoid.
Speaker: And then they tell all the ESTPs running out there engaging in the world, well, remember to be careful of this snake or like, and it's, and so, yeah.
Speaker: And so that's.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, you know, part of the challenge is that for people like you and me relating to that type is not always fun.
Speaker: based on our functions.
Speaker: And so sort of the more that, but at the same time, so what I think is happening in this sort of ideological realignment and sort of awakening of people, politically is the wrong word because it's cultural, it's bigger than politics, is that people like us who are sort of ideas people and like people
Speaker: abstract and and and countercultural and non-conformist we are having this realization that we need the structure and order of the tribe yeah and we can't create it by ourselves like a lot of guys are trying it and it's this larpy thing it's this really kind of cringe like um
Speaker: I don't know how else to articulate it.
Speaker: It's just kind of lame and everybody knows it.
Speaker: Everybody knows it's fake.
Speaker: Everybody knows it's not authentic.
Speaker: And so on the other hand, a lot of things start that way.
Speaker: Like the founding fathers were like LARPing as Romans and trying to build a classical Roman Republic.
Speaker: And to the extent that that was, it's reflected in the architecture, it's reflected in the structure of the government and everything else.
Speaker: And it became a real thing.
Speaker: But that integration, that process is really challenging.
Speaker: And I think on the other hand, the Guardian types, and you're seeing this with the
Speaker: you know, they call them boomer often.
Speaker: They're sort of very regular sort of elderly or not elderly, but like middle-aged people who are becoming like absurdly radical on Facebook.
Speaker: And like, like they're just, they're just talking about blowing stuff up and like killing cops.
Speaker: Like it's no big deal.
Speaker: Like they don't even understand that they're, that they're like in danger.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, you know, obviously this show doesn't condone any of that, but it's illuminating of an awakening among people who are not prone to awakenings, if that makes sense.
Speaker: It's people who are not abstract thinkers, but they're just watching what's happening.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And they're just sort of
Speaker: disgusted by it.
Speaker: And it's happening with like, you know, Blue Lives Matter.
Speaker: They have the black and blue American flag flying.
Speaker: And it's very much like we're pro our institutions, we're pro order, we're pro this and that.
Speaker: But those people can only see so many videos of, you know, the cops standing back while someone gets beaten up.
Speaker: you know, who's on the side of the cops ostensibly.
Speaker: Or, you know, they can only see so many cops sort of enforcing these absurdly invasive mandates before they start to, there starts to be sort of cracks in their view.
Speaker: And that project is,
Speaker: of helping those two groups of people to get back into harmony is maybe the most important thing we've got going right now, like as a country.
Speaker: And part of it does mean that like, you know, we have to wake them up and they have to, you know, come to the table a little bit, but also like,
Speaker: we have to find a way to not like stick our finger in their eye so much and, and be sort of deliberately transgressive.
Speaker: And that's hard because it's fun.
Speaker: And it's been like a major source of our group cohesion for a long time.
Speaker: Like the reason, the reason Trump was so fun to everybody was because he was sort of just a big walking middle finger all the time.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: And the type of people who don't like that kind of thing didn't like him quite a lot.
Speaker: And yeah, I don't know how you reconcile that, but it does seem like the next step is to reconcile that.
Speaker: I think it's about recognizing the necessity and value that specific mentalities bring.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And understanding that like a fact, not just conceptually, this is needed, but really like you need the TI.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Sorry to bring it back to this, but like if we put it into this framework, you need the TIs because they're the ones that are going to immediately tell you this isn't such a great idea.
Speaker: And then you need the FE's to be like, hey man, chill, like tribe values matter.
Speaker: And you're like, okay, yeah, that's true.
Speaker: And then, and then, and then it behooves each of us as individuals to develop the sides of ourselves that are weak, because just because we don't prefer a function doesn't mean it's non existent.
Speaker: There within each of us exists all of these things.
Speaker: And that in the end, the any users have to kind of figure out what they want.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then,
Speaker: So yeah, you need everything.
Speaker: You need everyone, like ingredients.
Speaker: It's got to be, I got to think that part of the problem is that the internet has allowed us to create these subcultures that are just our temperamental fits.
Speaker: Yeah, which is comforting.
Speaker: Yeah, it's super fun.
Speaker: It's way more fun than dealing with cop types.
Speaker: Yeah, but it's untenable.
Speaker: It doesn't yield long-term cohesiveness or unity or strength.
Speaker: You and I were talking about how each type has a complement type that sort of, it's that similar interaction you were talking about where you're both sort of consuming what the other is producing.
Speaker: And it's a very satisfying type of relationship.
Speaker: But it does create problems because your obsessions are the same and your attention and preoccupation is the same.
Speaker: It's just sort of inverted.
Speaker: And so there's whole worlds of cognition and threat detection that neither of you is doing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so it's shared blindness.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so it's, it's super fun and super satisfying and that can go on for a long time.
Speaker: But if the whole community is like that, it can really become deranged.
Speaker: And I think that's definitely what's happening.
Speaker: I think, I think a lot of the,
Speaker: I think a lot of the sortition that's happening ideologically, and I don't have a theory about like which types are sorting right now.
Speaker: But I have a, what a sortition mean?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: People separating into groups, clustering.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: And sort of like in India, when they had the partition of India, all the Muslims were made to leave and go to Pakistan.
Speaker: All the Hindus in Pakistan were made to leave and come to India.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Sortition means mixed things becoming no longer mixed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think you're seeing that ideologically, and I don't know if it cuts directly across temperamental lines, but I have a hunch that it does, and I kind of want to think more about what types might be more likely to be found on which side.
Speaker: There's definitely the common accusation of the left versus the right.
Speaker: has always been that like, you know, the right says that the left are idiots and the stuff they propose won't work and, and they don't like care about the facts.
Speaker: And then the converse accusation is that you don't have any, you don't have any heart.
Speaker: You don't care about what's right.
Speaker: Um, which is a classic thinking, feeling dichotomy.
Speaker: Um, but I feel like it's deeper than that, especially as, um,
Speaker: the Democrats have sort of become de facto, like, quote unquote, the party of science and sort of at least rhetorically value.
Speaker: Well, but it's not, they don't really, they don't actually rhetorically value questions of fact.
Speaker: What they're valuing is tribal consensus.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What they're valuing is, this is what everybody says is,
Speaker: And, you know, there's that comic, that New Yorker comic strip that's like, hey, honey, look, I found something that all the top experts in the world missed.
Speaker: And those of us who are on this side of the tent are like, well, yeah, because the experts suck.
Speaker: And so it's not like to them, it's this deep own.
Speaker: And to us, it's like, well, yeah, no, that's that's actually what we think.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: And so maybe it's a.
Speaker: Maybe it's like an SF type of thing versus an NT.
Speaker: It's hard to tease out.
Speaker: So what I find, again, is that the voices of the left tend to be intuitive feelers.
Speaker: And on occasion, they're STJs.
Speaker: But like Fauci, I'm pretty sure, is an ESTJ.
Speaker: And I haven't done a lot of analysis on that, so don't quote me.
Speaker: But like, yeah, so ENFJs and then, and those are the ones, yeah, so ENFJs and ESTJs tend to be the ones that are more staunch and loud.
Speaker: And then you have like the identitarians.
Speaker: So you have those that are supporting
Speaker: the identitarians like which would be like your INFP or like maybe your ISFP or um essentially the ones that are like I feel this and um pay attention to me yeah uh and and they're like okay so so yeah I I'm sure if we sat down we could probably find a rough um estimation of the general mentality of the sides uh and
Speaker: And yeah, I do think that tribalism has its place.
Speaker: And then, yeah, we're talking about problems that are beyond my capacity to zero in in a meaningful way.
Speaker: I mean, I can't take a stab at it, but yeah, that's big stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, when you say tribalism,
Speaker: there's one sense in which that means the American tribe and like our institutions.
Speaker: And from that, it's such a convoluted, like, because their sort of rhetoric defense is like, it's extremely dangerous to our democracy.
Speaker: They're breaking these norms.
Speaker: And it's about like, you're violating the values of the tribe, which is the American tribe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But at the same time, Nazi Germany, Nazi Germany was a tribe.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And if you if you violate the norms in Nazi Germany, now you are highly commended.
Speaker: You are an amazing, wonderful person, according to according to our tribal values, the new values.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And and it's.
Speaker: it's there's one sense in which they're sort of defending, you know, maybe the husk of, of the sort of Republican institutions, small r Republican.
Speaker: Um, but they're also gutting the, you know, American values when it comes to sort of the, the folk values of, of the average American about marriage and family and, and, and, you know, the proper way to live.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And so it's these structures or systems of government that they want to defend.
Speaker: The interpersonal individual values need to be deconstructed in the name of individual freedom.
Speaker: But on questions of fact and like the science, capital S Science,
Speaker: that's where they want everyone to be very conformist.
Speaker: And, you know, on some level, that's just might just be because those are the institutions that they're in control of.
Speaker: And so they want everybody to conform to those institutions.
Speaker: But I also think that there's like, cause the rank and file are not thinking about like, this is a conspiracy for us to assert power.
Speaker: Ordinary people don't think that way.
Speaker: So they have some other reason why that framework makes sense to them.
Speaker: So it's, yeah, I'm doing all this on the fly.
Speaker: I haven't actually thought any of this through.
Speaker: So it'll be fun to dig into it more.
Speaker: On the subject, though, of the way that these temperaments can be used.
Speaker: So one guy in the group, we talked about this and he was like, you know, it's interesting, but
Speaker: some HR lady basically used it to like cover her for her friends and criticize people she didn't like.
Speaker: And, and, and like, she was sort of like, well, it's in his temperament to make mistakes that cost $2 million.
Speaker: And so they were like, well, it's in my temperament to fire people who make mistakes that cost $2 million.
Speaker: And, and like it seems like that's maybe kind of inevitable given how sort of complex and interpretive this process is.
Speaker: It feels more like therapy than engineering where you're sort of having to, um,
Speaker: tease out subjective detail, but the professional piece of it's somewhat open interpretation.
Speaker: So is there a way around that?
Speaker: Or is it sort of like it's always going to be just as good a tool as the person who's using it?
Speaker: Yeah, and also, you know, a bad tool with a really skilled person is going to be able to make that tool work.
Speaker: And then a good tool with so again, there is the utility of the tool and then there's the capacity of the user of the tool.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I would say that's true for this as well.
Speaker: Yeah, like, well, I mean, you know, the same not to bring it back to politics, but like kind of the same can be said about the institutions like.
Speaker: they can be really, really good institutions, but if there's bad people running them, like they'll find a way to screw them up.
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, do you care about the people?
Speaker: Like, are you motivated by truth, love, and is your heart good?
Speaker: And then are you gifted at execution and accomplishing things?
Speaker: And then there's that amalgamation of all those traits within you.
Speaker: And if, yeah, and in the end, I think this is more of an ethical conversation is like, are you
Speaker: Do you love the people like and then and then as a result, that's going to flavor the application of said tool.
Speaker: That's going to flavor the way that you use you spend your intellectual resources.
Speaker: It's going to flavor how you spend your money and what you do with it.
Speaker: And so, yeah, both of those things kind of interrelate.
Speaker: People want this like, well, I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like a lot of people get frustrated with a tool like this because it isn't sort of this like autistic puzzle box that solves all the problems.
Speaker: Like, like, uh,
Speaker: And the same is true of government.
Speaker: It's like, you know, if we were to just engineer our system of government just perfectly, then we'd never have to worry about corruption or, you know, like you can just engineer the incentives appropriately so that nobody ever misbehaves.
Speaker: And ultimately someone is always in charge of those incentives and those structures and institutions.
Speaker: And it's a consensus decision
Speaker: among the people, at least the people who are in power to preserve those institutions in a sort of just and fair-minded way.
Speaker: And so you're never going to solve that as an engineering problem.
Speaker: It's always at least partly a moral problem.
Speaker: Right, and I think to your point, and this analogy, whenever I've thought about how I look at it, if you want to know the way I see it, it's that, and this is, you know, it's a pretty old adage, the elephant and the men, the blind monks or the blind beggars or whatever flavor of that story it is, each of them see a part of it
Speaker: And if they never communicate, so what it is, is there's four blind guys and they're feeling different parts of an elephant and they're saying, and then someone asks them, what's an elephant?
Speaker: And they say, oh, it's this long skinny thing with fiber at the end.
Speaker: And he's feeling the tail and it's like the side of a house and he's feeling like the torso.
Speaker: And then one feels the top.
Speaker: Anyways, the point is, they're all talking about the elephant.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And the only way that we actually see the elephant, if all we're listening to is them, is by hearing all of them and believing all of them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that comes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's that's hard in terms of cognitive preferences.
Speaker: There's going to be if we're returning it to the typing.
Speaker: We have cognitive preferences, and there's a certain blind man that we're more inclined to listen to.
Speaker: And so what the system applies is, hey, ignore that feeling inside you that only that blind man has something good to say.
Speaker: And to the extent that you're able, pay attention to what the ISTPs have to say and the ESFJs and the whatever the type is.
Speaker: And that informs your decision and that creates a more holistic view of how everything relates together.
Speaker: That makes sense.
Speaker: And I think where this thing becomes really magic for me personally is decoding individuals.
Speaker: and typing them individually.
Speaker: So we talked about like three and a half types at most, and there's six.
Speaker: And we could go on for hours and hours.
Speaker: And so you run a sort of weekly discussion about this.
Speaker: What kind of topics do you cover in those weekly discussions?
Speaker: So when I first started it, it was primarily academic, right?
Speaker: Because that's what INTP is like.
Speaker: They're like, oh, let me talk about what I think and let me teach it to you in this sort of professorial approach.
Speaker: And I found that's not that great for the majority of the types.
Speaker: Like a few types love it, like TE Hero.
Speaker: We'll just sit there and just take it in all day.
Speaker: So an ESTJ, an ENTJ.
Speaker: But that excludes a lot of people.
Speaker: And so I had to figure out, okay, well, what approach is most effective?
Speaker: So while all these deep, quote unquote, concepts are fodder for these conversations, most of the time what we're doing is we're applying the typing process.
Speaker: So I teach everybody how to type.
Speaker: I walk them through the dichotomies of informative versus direct and abstract versus concrete.
Speaker: And then I show them, okay, this is the way that's applied to reality.
Speaker: This is how you apply it to actual people.
Speaker: And this is how that looks.
Speaker: And then we'll type people that they engage with on a daily basis so they can map reality to these abstract concepts.
Speaker: And then they can say to themselves, OK, my girlfriend's this type.
Speaker: My wife is this type.
Speaker: My boss.
Speaker: Yeah, your boss.
Speaker: This person that you hate and you butt heads with all the time, and it's a huge problem in your life.
Speaker: uh this person that you like and man you you would really like to date or um this this difficult uncle or insert whatever it is yeah and now how do you please them how do you um how do you get what how do you give them what they need how do you get what you need from them etc yeah
Speaker: Yeah, and this methodically approaches those problems.
Speaker: And in the group, we engage in these discussions.
Speaker: And I think it takes a little bit of time to understand the vocabulary enough.
Speaker: And also, you know, you deal with insecurities.
Speaker: Am I going to come off as stupid?
Speaker: Are people going to think less of me if I share this part of my life?
Speaker: Oh, not to interrupt you, but I also want to ask you, you've mentioned in the past that like particular types tend to either not be particularly good at typing themselves.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And maybe tell me about why that is.
Speaker: So I think a few things lend themselves to typing.
Speaker: And it tends to be extroverted sensors are good at typing physically.
Speaker: I find that the, and this makes sense because if you remember, some of the people you've brought up have enjoyed the more broad categorization of people.
Speaker: So just typing them as a guardian or something like that.
Speaker: So but I have found just in reality by working with people that the NE hero types are quite good at typing.
Speaker: And the SE hero types are very good at typing.
Speaker: And just typing, just looking at a person and being like, this person's this.
Speaker: Because maybe an SE type is examining their affect
Speaker: and how they look and how they sound and how they talk and how they carry themselves.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And an NE type is like, I've got your number.
Speaker: I know what you want.
Speaker: I know what drives you.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And I found that when you pair SE and TI and NE and TI, you get
Speaker: really good at typing.
Speaker: Because then, not only can you recognize that gut impulse of it, which the NE users and the SE users will pick up on, you also can back it up with reasons and internal logic.
Speaker: So and I've noticed this.
Speaker: I do have a pretty decent sense of like, it's pretty easy for me to get to the bottom of what people want and what their course is or should be.
Speaker: But the TI piece of it, which is one of my much weaker functions,
Speaker: of actually like nailing them down to a type, that's something that I have to do very deliberately.
Speaker: And like, I have to, I have to really think through and that'd probably get easier as I do more of it.
Speaker: But like, you know, you can talk to somebody for at most 30 minutes and you know,
Speaker: I won't say it's okay, yes.
Speaker: But like every now and then there'll be a person that like doesn't quite fit.
Speaker: And so let me explain that for a little bit.
Speaker: So NE pairs with SI.
Speaker: What is SI?
Speaker: It's memory of the past.
Speaker: So extroverted intuition is reading the person.
Speaker: What are their motives?
Speaker: What are they doing?
Speaker: And then SI is saying,
Speaker: what have I experienced in the past and how does that relate to this momentary experience?
Speaker: And so essentially each informs the other.
Speaker: So the more I do, the more informed my judgments and guesses become and the more nuanced they can be.
Speaker: So
Speaker: You can be like, well, I like, like, for instance, flavorings of types.
Speaker: So even within the typing, after doing it for years, you realize, oh, okay, this is an ENTJ that really has ironed out their introverted functions.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: As opposed to an ENTJ that's only worked on TE and SE, right?
Speaker: And hasn't really figured out their personal ambitions, hasn't really developed an internal sense of morals.
Speaker: And they'll come off differently.
Speaker: So you're telling the difference between someone who is maybe genuinely off type versus someone who has just sort of balanced themselves.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And so as a result, when people have gone through tremendously stressful and painful transformation, that usually moves them in a place in which the solution to their problem
Speaker: is found in one of their lower functions or one of their shadow functions.
Speaker: So they've had to essentially like break themselves apart to find these weaker elements of themselves and allow them to surface to solve whatever challenge or issue lies in front of them.
Speaker: So people who have gone through
Speaker: um like honestly really trying hard things uh will often have pieces of them emerge that you don't usually see in that type I don't know if that does that make sense no it totally does I mean I'm thinking about I'm thinking about um the times when I have been the most sort of concrete and and um
Speaker: organized and disciplined and focused.
Speaker: Uh, they virtually all of them been after intense struggle.
Speaker: And, um, even this thing now, like, uh, the fact that I've only missed like a handful of calls and like, I'm, I'm getting pretty good at keeping my calendar up and knowing what I need to accomplish and knowing what needs to happen.
Speaker: Um, um,
Speaker: you know, an outside observer would not say that I'm particularly organized or disciplined, but it's leaps and bounds beyond from where you were, from where I was even, you know, three months ago.
Speaker: Um, and that's been, and I'm finding it, I'm finding it easy because it's, it's so much what I want to do.
Speaker: It's, it's, uh, the, the, um,
Speaker: Well, even my encounter with learning math, I couldn't get my head around math at all until I was in college.
Speaker: And I realized that there were questions that I really wanted to answer that I couldn't solve without math.
Speaker: And so it became an instrumental exercise.
Speaker: I want something bad enough that I'll go get it.
Speaker: And I'll develop the skill set to get it.
Speaker: Learning how to automate things, learning how to do programming.
Speaker: I sort of was interested in that vaguely and I really struggled to learn it until I was in this terrible job where so much of what I had to do was soul sucking manual computer work.
Speaker: And I was like, I have to develop this skill set.
Speaker: And I got pretty good at it.
Speaker: And then I was sort of the go-to guy for those types of tasks in the future.
Speaker: And I enjoyed it because of the meaning behind it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Not so much sort of the tactile exercise of it.
Speaker: And so I think part of what happens is, yes, you explore these functions that are alien to you and you make them part of yourself, but I think you also contextualize them in terms of your strengths.
Speaker: And that's how you find the will because you're like, I'm still this person.
Speaker: I still need to be this person.
Speaker: In my case, I still need to be abstract and concerned with questions of meaning and kind of disorganized and undisciplined and head in the clouds.
Speaker: And I'm in this situation where I can't be that person.
Speaker: And so I'm going to go into that dark place, go into that hard place and find the tools that I need to get back to being that person, if that makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker: I understand we're speaking super abstractly, but I'm following you really well.
Speaker: And I guess, like, and again, if returning to this, like all of that,
Speaker: like change, like in that moment, you're not regular self.
Speaker: You're this other thing.
Speaker: And it's transforming your life in this really meaningful way.
Speaker: And I think we can at least introduce, I'm sorry, I keep cutting you off.
Speaker: Finish your thought.
Speaker: Uh, I, well, I'm, did you, okay.
Speaker: You want to introduce the concept of the shadow?
Speaker: Is that what you were?
Speaker: That's exactly where I was going.
Speaker: So, so it's, um, because we have the four sort of types that you live with every day, even like there's ones that you suck at, but you live with them.
Speaker: And then you've got your shadow types, which are the inverse or the reverse of your four main types.
Speaker: So in, in my case, um,
Speaker: my first function is extroverted intuition.
Speaker: Therefore, my fifth function is introverted intuition and so on down the line.
Speaker: And those are the nemesis, the critic, the trickster and the demon.
Speaker: And they have these sort of dark names because they are sort of what comes out in struggle.
Speaker: And they're sort of deep, they're subconscious or unconscious, they're hard to access.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So tell me a little bit about Nemesis and how that relates to the hero function.
Speaker: Yeah, so...
Speaker: So having taught this a few times, I sort of want, again, because we're speaking of things that are beneath the surface, there's a lack of concreteness.
Speaker: So the same level of confidence that I discuss the hero function, the parent function, it's harder for me to see very clearly the concrete manifestations of the shadow functions.
Speaker: And they occur less often.
Speaker: Like for instance, for you, how often are you under a period of extreme duress in which you are hyper-focused and you know what you want and you're getting things done super quickly.
Speaker: And so that's the data pool
Speaker: that you're using to inform your understanding of the shadow functions so as a result you have less i would say yes um that said uh the nemesis function is like it's generally more and for you it's what do i want so it's not inaccessible for you um and and and so the yeah so this is true of every type your nemesis function
Speaker: you're pretty confident with it, but not the way you're confident with the hero function.
Speaker: And so in the same way that a hero needs a nemesis in order to truly be a hero, you need the other side of the coin
Speaker: um like you notice the dark because the light contrasts with it yeah um if you have this side of yourself completely lacking there is an imbalance in who you are like your your hero hasn't met his match he hasn't engaged in real battle so an enfp who was sort of imbalanced in that sense may just be uh
Speaker: Well, because introverted intuition isn't necessarily what I want.
Speaker: That's more introverted feeling.
Speaker: Introverted intuition is more what should I do.
Speaker: What is my path forward?
Speaker: How will I navigate my life?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so a person in that situation might be very dissolute or disorganized, aimless.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And yeah, I've definitely found that my purpose is not
Speaker: surface level obvious to me in the moment.
Speaker: It's something that I encounter through sort of like a ping pong ball being beaten against the sides of where I don't need to go.
Speaker: And so, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: And I think one of the reasons that ENFPs who are imbalanced can be so obnoxious
Speaker: is because they can be very confident about what everybody else ought to do.
Speaker: And not having their crap together.
Speaker: And how to do it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: A.T.E.
Speaker: child, right?
Speaker: So in your case, that would be extroverted thinking, which is maybe...
Speaker: I think this is really cool and I'm pretty sure that I'm factually correct about it.
Speaker: But, you know, I've been burned enough that I need to look outside and see what other people think.
Speaker: I need to take stock.
Speaker: That's precisely my experience of it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, so, so that's, that's, uh, nemesis is a place of like profound growth, um, and, and sort of maturity and wisdom and hard experience.
Speaker: The, the next one is the critic function, which, um, mine is F E, uh, so, uh, extroverted feeling, which is the, the, the values of the group.
Speaker: And so would that mean that I am, uh,
Speaker: attacking the group for not living up to their values or I'm attacking myself for not living up to their values, what does it mean that it's Fe critic?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: How do I answer this?
Speaker: So Fe critic.
Speaker: So, so to be clear for everyone listening, this is a very weak function that you are aware of.
Speaker: And, and you're critical of it.
Speaker: So, so it sort of comes off for,
Speaker: Effie critic, like it's your job to protect everybody from all of the bad people.
Speaker: Like you're responsible, like every now and then you feel responsible for making everybody feel good.
Speaker: But like, it comes off as very like,
Speaker: anim like animated and intense so very much like uh the the protester yeah uh like very much like oh you guys are bad like and they happen to know a huge pain in the ass the nfp and that's very that fits very well
Speaker: Yeah, so I can't say, yeah, yeah, so it's a very pessimistic, like, I am sure, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: Which is what I just did, right?
Speaker: Like, I was playing the critic, I was...
Speaker: sort of, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And again, again, as you're asking me these questions, I want to just reiterate, I'm less confident in the explanations, like, owing to the thing that I said earlier.
Speaker: Although, again, I've seen, like, I've, you know, I've looked at this a lot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The, um,
Speaker: Again, thinking about my sort of presence on Twitter, it's almost a sort of the optimistic side of it is my child.
Speaker: It's the extroverted thinking.
Speaker: It's the, we're just going to explore cool ideas and, you know, get deep into...
Speaker: abstruse, weird, you know, stuff people are saying stuff, ideas people have, and isn't this cool, I'm just going to show it to everybody.
Speaker: And then the sort of distaff of that, the negative side is my Effie critic, which is the world is burning down and the people doing it have names and addresses.
Speaker: And, and, and,
Speaker: And so I think those are very tightly related, at least for me, or at least they're a huge part of my like sort of social presence.
Speaker: And maybe it's because Twitter, at least until recently, was sort of my safe place where I could kind of live purely in the realm of ideas.
Speaker: Because nobody knew who I was.
Speaker: I couldn't be held accountable for anything I was saying.
Speaker: And so it was this very sort of playful, exploratory space.
Speaker: So anyway, that's...
Speaker: critic, right?
Speaker: And I didn't, I'm not sure I got a clear answer.
Speaker: Maybe there isn't a clear answer as to whether it's sort of internally critical of the self or externally critical.
Speaker: Maybe that depends on if it's an I or an E. Yeah, that's, yeah, that.
Speaker: Okay, got it.
Speaker: So because I'm FE, I'm like, you guys all suck.
Speaker: Whereas you, yours is
Speaker: And I introverted intuition, which is, I don't know what to do.
Speaker: I don't know what I'm doing with my life.
Speaker: I don't know what path to take.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, it's awful.
Speaker: I don't enjoy it.
Speaker: So what happens is we use INTPs, use NE and FE to make life choices, essentially.
Speaker: Hey, what do you want?
Speaker: Oh, you want me to do this?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And then they're like, well, I'm pretty good.
Speaker: Or like, everybody wants to be a doctor.
Speaker: yeah, like, okay, so I'm smart.
Speaker: I can go to school.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'll be a doctor.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so it's not your ambition that pushed you there.
Speaker: It was that it made sense TI.
Speaker: And, and someone else wanted it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like, yeah.
Speaker: And, or, or someone else is like, Hey, this is, this is what the tribe values.
Speaker: So you're listening to TE people being like, Hey, here's some things that people think.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: you know, this could be a good thing for you, FI for your FE.
Speaker: And then at the end of the day, you're like halfway in it and you're like, I don't want to do this, but I have no idea what I want to do because it was never a consideration for me.
Speaker: Very common with these guys in the group that are in that situation.
Speaker: And that's not to say that they're aimless or not successful.
Speaker: They're very successful in terms of what they actually pursued.
Speaker: Which was, they got a high status, high paying job.
Speaker: They're very comfortable.
Speaker: They just didn't catch what I want, in quotes, what they want.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And there's no way around that, just for reference.
Speaker: Besides brutal transformative suffering.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm so sorry.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's the only thing, unfortunately.
Speaker: And using your other functions.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like looking like like like working on that F.E.
Speaker: and working on that S.I.
Speaker: And and then and then if you do F.E., that pulls you into your subconscious and then like, yeah, different elements of your psyche will pull you into the space that is capable of solving those problems.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But you have to walk into it deliberately.
Speaker: Um, and, and that's where the, the growth can come.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There's so much to be said for, uh, I tell my wife, my wife is very anxious as a person.
Speaker: And we talk a lot about predator versus prey mindset and how, um, so Jocko Willink has that book, um, extreme ownership.
Speaker: And one of the things he talks about is, um, they, they were able to transform the way they did patrols in Ramadi, um,
Speaker: Because originally the patrol was, we're going to walk through the city and just wait to get shot at.
Speaker: And that's an immensely demoralizing state of mind.
Speaker: Because you are the prey.
Speaker: You are afraid.
Speaker: You can't do anything.
Speaker: You are waiting to be acted upon.
Speaker: And the way they changed their patrols was they made it an active search.
Speaker: Like we are going to go patrol and, but it's a hunter killer type.
Speaker: We're going to go, we're going to go get the bad guys on this patrol.
Speaker: We're going to find where they are.
Speaker: And that sort of hunter mindset, predator mindset totally changes the emotional valence of the experience, even if the risk is the same.
Speaker: And so, yeah, the more that you can embrace the suffering and the transformative character of that, the better off you'll be.
Speaker: And I definitely, with this doxing experience, it's happened to several of us.
Speaker: It's not just me.
Speaker: Guys that I know well and like quite a bit.
Speaker: And the ones who,
Speaker: accepted it the most quickly and its consequences were the ones who seemed to be having the strongest and the most interesting transformation.
Speaker: So yeah, I definitely think that's the case.
Speaker: So that's Critic.
Speaker: And then you've got the trickster.
Speaker: And the trickster is a, it's playful like the child type, but it's maybe a little more malevolent, a little more disruptive.
Speaker: And maybe it's a blind spot for the person wielding it.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And real quick, just in my experience of teaching this stuff, most people can really only handle like an hour at a time.
Speaker: And we've gone a while.
Speaker: No, you know what, though, man, they can just turn it off.
Speaker: Yeah, okay.
Speaker: Okay, get out of here.
Speaker: We don't we don't want you in the tent.
Speaker: If you don't think it's cool, get out of here.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Trickster.
Speaker: Let's talk about trickster.
Speaker: Soldier on.
Speaker: OK.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So the trickster function, and it's actually sort of how you described it.
Speaker: But this one's clear.
Speaker: The problem is you think that you have it, and it's like you don't have it.
Speaker: So it's really dangerous.
Speaker: And I'm not saying this is always true because you can always go in and work on it and develop it and get better at it.
Speaker: But like the best natural assumption to make is that you have
Speaker: like the least level of conception of the critic function of the trickster function of all of the functions so so this is like this is where you're gonna really mess with the fabric of uh existence like this is where you're gonna fall on your face this is where you're going to um because it's not so much you being a trickster it's this thing is a trickster to you it's playing tricks on you
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And this is real.
Speaker: This is real.
Speaker: Like, like, it's, it's not just some name, like, like an INTP will think to themselves.
Speaker: Yeah, anyone could have a good experience.
Speaker: Any experience could be good, which most types would be like, definitely not true.
Speaker: Like, and the ITP is like, yeah, yeah, you guys could have a good time.
Speaker: And it's like, no.
Speaker: And, and like, this could work out well for me in a physical way.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: Like this could play out the way and the answer is no.
Speaker: And so what is an SE trickster?
Speaker: What do they have to do?
Speaker: They have to learn as much as they can from the artisans.
Speaker: Like they have to watch the artisans and then just copy what they do.
Speaker: And then maybe after a long time, their SI will have captured enough SE to actually
Speaker: give people a good experience so this is maybe the this is maybe the the the what's that lady's name there was some lady who in like the 1910s or something who thought she was a good singer and she was releasing all these records and it became a joke and like she didn't have a conception of the fact that people she was popular because people were making fun of her um
Speaker: So like that's kind of se falling on your face.
Speaker: Like I'm going to perform.
Speaker: I'm going to think it's good and it's not going to be good.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And hopefully, hopefully you have people in your circle that are going to TI and they're going to burn you with some, some truth.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's what you'd need in that kind of a situation.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: Yeah, but yes, that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
Speaker: Like, I'm going to make this food and man, you guys are going to like it.
Speaker: And nobody likes it.
Speaker: Like, you did a really bad job.
Speaker: And you don't know because you are so insensitive to anybody's experience but your own.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And so that's SI.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: For me, that's introverted thinking.
Speaker: And we had this really interesting conversation a couple days ago where you described the process of introverted thinking.
Speaker: And I literally was like, I don't think that exists.
Speaker: I don't think anybody does that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was basically...
Speaker: Everything about my, well, everything that I consider interesting about my cognition is that I took something that somebody else was doing and I synthesized it, or I put two things together, or I made it, I amplified it, or I, I, I,
Speaker: There's not like this wellspring of spontaneous generation inside my mind that is coming up with these ideas.
Speaker: It's virtually always, I saw something, I thought it was cool, and here's my twist on it.
Speaker: And so the sense in which maybe that gets me into trouble is...
Speaker: Well, it's exactly the same way that your sort of TE child can get you into trouble, which is I thought that I had done the due diligence about this as a factual question.
Speaker: I thought that I had done the math right, personally, and I hadn't.
Speaker: I had just sort of accepted what was said.
Speaker: And I...
Speaker: This is true on, I keep going back to Twitter because it's such a big part of my sort of social life, but it happens all the time.
Speaker: Like people will post fake news and I get owned all the time because I'm like, oh my gosh, this is horrible.
Speaker: You know, who would do this?
Speaker: And then I realized that nobody would do it.
Speaker: It was made up.
Speaker: And I'm getting better at checking first.
Speaker: But it still happens all the time.
Speaker: So, so yeah, that's, that's maybe kind of a minor modest example.
Speaker: Of course, on Twitter, you still get rewarded.
Speaker: Like, like if you, if you post some outrageous thing, um,
Speaker: nobody else is looking at it either.
Speaker: And they go, wow, retweet.
Speaker: And you get a bunch of followers.
Speaker: And yeah, that's so insane.
Speaker: I'm sure that, and that's got to drive you as a TI guy bonkers.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't like it.
Speaker: I don't like it at all.
Speaker: And yeah, so what's the answer?
Speaker: The answer is either...
Speaker: And I honestly don't think it's super realistic to develop that function.
Speaker: Like you need to learn it from somebody else.
Speaker: Maybe surround yourself with, in my case, surround yourself with people that you trust.
Speaker: Yeah, okay.
Speaker: Also that, but specifically in this case, TI users that you trust.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: To check you.
Speaker: And I mean, in your case, strong SI users will be able to keep you in check.
Speaker: But whether they choose to do that or not is sort of an open question.
Speaker: Like, they'll know that what you did sucked.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So if I want to tell you the one that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, you know, who's going to tell you the ESTP is most likely going to tell you.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: ESTP is like what you did is wrong.
Speaker: And it was bad and, and it was bad because other people didn't like it.
Speaker: Cause I was looking around and everyone frowned when you, when they ate that, you gave me a bad experience and I'm going to burn you with my TI, right?
Speaker: Cause I'm TI parent and I'm going to let you have it.
Speaker: And you're not going to forget this and screw it up again.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Like, yeah.
Speaker: ESTPs are necessary for, for the SI child's like, you need them around.
Speaker: um for that specific reason to to bully you and not being cringe anymore yeah right yeah yeah because what's the bad estp it's the schoolyard bully what's the good estp it's it's the one that like sticks up for you fights for you and like man get it get it together but all yeah like he's sort of your big brother he's like yeah i'm gonna show you how to how to fit in and then yeah cool and then we'll all get along
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So we said that my wife is an ESFJ, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So one of the things that I've noticed between her and you is that when you will be maybe abrupt or you'll say something that's like offensive or
Speaker: she will notice it very strongly and I will kind of notice it.
Speaker: I'll be like, yeah, like that was probably like, you know, a weird thing to say in this context, but like, I don't care.
Speaker: It's fun.
Speaker: And, and, and she'll be like, yeah, but, but it was like, it was like, it was like wrong.
Speaker: And, and she, she has had this experience where she, she had to get to know you quite a bit.
Speaker: Um, and, and eventually she was like, oh, he's a good dude.
Speaker: That's just a blind spot for him.
Speaker: That's fine.
Speaker: Um, but like, it was, it was intensely, uh, it was top of mind for her.
Speaker: And for me, it was like, ah, whatever, that's what it is, you know?
Speaker: And so that's, that I think is a major, um, piece of it is like, is like, uh, not just do you notice it, but will you say that you noticed it?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So in the case of, and I think that comes for the TI users, that comes in what order is TI versus FE, right?
Speaker: So TI means you're going to notice whether it's factually correct or not.
Speaker: And then the sensitivity to that.
Speaker: increases as it goes up your stack.
Speaker: And then what are the social implications of saying that thing?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So she's hero F-E, inferior T-I.
Speaker: So she's like, yeah, maybe it was true, but it was mean.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that, oh man, you don't say mean things like, unless you hate that guy.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that, and so that, and that was exactly how she interpreted it was not like, was not like Scott's socially inept.
Speaker: Her immediate words to me were, I think Scott hates me.
Speaker: And I was like, no, and immediately I was like, no, Scott does not hate you.
Speaker: Um, like, or, or he thinks I'm stupid or he like has contempt for me.
Speaker: And I was like, not at all, not at all.
Speaker: Uh, that's just a blind spot.
Speaker: And, and, and, you know, she, uh, she sort of was able to parse that, but like, uh, that's, that's immediately what it is.
Speaker: You're absolutely right.
Speaker: It's, it's, um, I wouldn't be that blunt with someone unless I hated them.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Which is almost the opposite for you.
Speaker: It's almost the opposite, yeah.
Speaker: Right, it's... I'm going to tell you what I think because we're bros.
Speaker: Yeah, because I care enough.
Speaker: I would not waste my time telling you anything if I thought...
Speaker: were either too dumb to listen or someone whose future I didn't care about.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And, uh, I had a conversation with, um, another guy who I think is an ENFP.
Speaker: He, he, um, he sort of tested himself as INFP.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And we sort of had the realization that like, no, you just hate your job and you're sort of around people that you don't connect with.
Speaker: And so, um,
Speaker: For the record, ENTP and ENFP are pretty introverted for the extroverts.
Speaker: So they will often mistype as INFP or INTP or some other introverted type.
Speaker: So that's common.
Speaker: So, I mean, he was saying, yeah, and what it was fundamentally, and maybe you can tell me if this is right or wrong, my belief is that
Speaker: The difference between an introvert and an extrovert in the context like that is if an introvert is around someone that they don't, or around a group that they like can't hang with, they don't find it like nails on a chalkboard, like insufferable that they can't connect with these people.
Speaker: like an extrovert, an extrovert is like, I can't connect with these people.
Speaker: I can't say what I want to say.
Speaker: And it makes me want to die.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's an INFP or like specific and, and, and to a lesser extent than INTP.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or, but yeah, well, I'm not saying it's just those two, but you're going to hear those words from the, from the introverted side.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, wait.
Speaker: So you're saying those are the people who are frustrated by the fact they can't open up?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, then maybe he is an INFP.
Speaker: Yeah, well, yeah, who knows?
Speaker: Well, not who knows.
Speaker: Like, I probably only, they have a very sort of lofty seriousness to them.
Speaker: Like, they're less playful, I find, than ENFPs.
Speaker: And they're more bookish.
Speaker: Like, it's a... So this guy is funny, but he's not playful.
Speaker: That's, okay, I think he's an INFP.
Speaker: So that's, that's trickster.
Speaker: We kind of went way off the rails.
Speaker: We went to a whole different other place, but.
Speaker: But I love going off the rails because that's what's interesting for me.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like, yeah.
Speaker: Cause I get to start like speaking the language instead of teaching it.
Speaker: And then don't get me wrong.
Speaker: I like teaching.
Speaker: um but like i love speaking yeah like i like walking with the idea yeah go dig into it for sure yeah um man you would have had a lot of fun on our call last night uh we need to get you in there one of these days but um um we were talking about the trickster function and how it's the most sort of invisible to you um
Speaker: Oh, and that's interesting.
Speaker: And so for my wife, her trickster function would be NI, which is what do I want?
Speaker: And she's very self-sacrificing and very oriented toward what the group needs.
Speaker: And that's a problem that I haven't quite solved yet, which is how do I make her sit down and take care of herself?
Speaker: And because she gets exhausted and then she shuts down.
Speaker: And so it's like, I'm, I'm, it's very easy for me to like go to the well and, and, and replenish myself and take care of myself.
Speaker: I'm a very self-oriented person, selfish, you could say.
Speaker: And, and she absolutely is not.
Speaker: And it's like, that's good.
Speaker: up until, you know, the, the, the, the brake pads are worn out and the proverbially like your, your psychological brake pads are worn out and it's metal on metal.
Speaker: And, you know, you need to go, you need to go get it taken care of.
Speaker: You need to go get it taken care of.
Speaker: So, so that's interesting.
Speaker: That's, that's sort of her blind spot.
Speaker: That makes perfect sense.
Speaker: What you can do... Well, is it okay if I mention some... Let's go there.
Speaker: Let's do it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So one, as any hero, you can probably figure out what she wants, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So if she can trust your ability to suss out her ambitions...
Speaker: you can tell them to her.
Speaker: And then you can also say, and generally, ESFJs are all about family, so more than any other type.
Speaker: And so you could say, it is your job, it's your duty.
Speaker: SI users are motivated by duty.
Speaker: It is your duty to
Speaker: take care of yourself in a way that allows you to continue to be an awesome mother or whatever her ambition is.
Speaker: So it's your duty to do these things, to be selfish, I guess, because in the long run, you will be your best self if you take care, like,
Speaker: Like you, you owe it to the people you're responsible for to take care of your needs.
Speaker: Because if, if you like, it's a sort of kill the golden goose analogy.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You're, you're, you're, you're writing checks that you can't cash.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so like, there's a certain, um, moral responsibility, which, uh,
Speaker: to meet the needs of virtue.
Speaker: So essentially, it's like, you must be selfish to meet your own goals and needs.
Speaker: And so it's like, this is your designated be.
Speaker: Yeah, and you'd have to teach her how to do that, essentially.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It may even be like you having to exercise your social muscles and me having to literally go exercise.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's sort of like for her, she needs defined, scheduled time to take care of herself.
Speaker: Yeah, and with that moral imperative, right?
Speaker: Like, your job is this.
Speaker: you have to be selfish, right?
Speaker: And then eventually that can move into a more natural like acceptance of, like it'll mold into her SI, right?
Speaker: Because it'll be, I remembered this experience.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then it will become a part of the real self-care.
Speaker: But since it's coming from that angle of like self-focus, it'll feel naturally sort of
Speaker: bad, but I think if you say your family needs you and they need you to take care of you and this is a natural part of that ecosystem, please, for everybody, schedule some time for yourself.
Speaker: That makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's three instances of Trickster.
Speaker: I think that's a good, that illustrates the concept really well.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Then there's the demon and it's called the demon partly because it's your worst, you know, it's the thing that you're the worst at and you know you're the worst at it.
Speaker: But it's also something that you maybe can only access during or after
Speaker: maybe trauma is too deep a word, but extreme stress.
Speaker: And so, I mean, is that a fair characterization for first of all?
Speaker: I would almost say it has to be really traumatic.
Speaker: But there's a world in which it doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker: But in my experience, it's almost always, but not always.
Speaker: Theoretically, you could go looking for it and try to develop it, but you're not going to, basically.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and I don't like saying that, but like reality plays that like, like maybe maybe there's some world in which like your Moses and there's your burning bush and God shows you here is your demon function and it's like, oh, there it is.
Speaker: Okay, now I know how to like conceptually that that could exist.
Speaker: But yeah, for the most part, it's just like cataclysmic life events will manifest your demon function.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So in your case, that is introverted feeling.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which is, um, what do I think is right?
Speaker: What do I think is good?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, um, as I've watched you, um, over the course of our time together, that definitely makes sense as like, um,
Speaker: that's another one that you are sort of being ping-ponged against.
Speaker: You're bouncing off of challenges and struggles.
Speaker: And it's in the dark moment when you're thinking about like, am I doing what's right?
Speaker: Or is my life right?
Speaker: Yeah, as opposed to am I effectively achieving my goals or am I correct?
Speaker: Which are separate questions.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, all of those struggles, basically all of my shadow functions show up.
Speaker: Although the easiest, the one that I can regularly access now is TE.
Speaker: I can hit my fifth function decently.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: That's the only one.
Speaker: And that's after a lot of work.
Speaker: And then FI, I know it exists because it's erupted in my life enough times that I'm like, OK,
Speaker: it's in it's in that back storeroom in the closet right um like and and i can hear like yeah and so if you don't feed it a scrap every once in a while like one of these nights it's gonna bust out of the cage and it's gonna burn your life down like yeah so and and and so
Speaker: Yeah, like, recognizing its reality, I think, is essential for a healthy life.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, realizing there is a part of you that's this destructive, powerful element that's, like, held captive and silent.
Speaker: Like...
Speaker: So to the INTPs, just recognizing that you're not only an agnostic automaton that says true false things to like, that is not true.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You have biases, you have feelings, you have your preferences influence your judgment, even though you think that they don't.
Speaker: And, um, like in my case, it's, it's extroverted sensing, which is, um, this is definitely true.
Speaker: Like at my most heightened and my most, uh, um, freaked out, uh, that's when I am the closest to becoming physically aggressive.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: And yeah, and that's not only knowing how to, like, you know, I guess, you know, learn how to fight in case you're ever in a fight, right?
Speaker: But one thing that I'm noticing now is like,
Speaker: physically disciplining my kids is a challenge and i don't i don't mean like uh you know i know what you mean whooping on them but like i'm gonna you're in this situation i'm gonna pick you up and i'm gonna physically move you uh because you know you're throwing a fit you need to go to your room or whatever and um
Speaker: that is a demon function for me because I can, I like, I can catch myself like, Oh, I'm gripping really tightly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's not right.
Speaker: I shouldn't be doing that.
Speaker: And, and, and that kind of thing, like my ability to calibrate, um,
Speaker: And, you know, it's about giving them an experience, right?
Speaker: It's a negative experience, but it's about like, I need my kids to have an appropriate experience that dissuades them from the behavior.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I'm, I'm pretty bad at doing that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so, so that, that makes sense as, as my demon.
Speaker: And it's also like, every time I got in a fight in school, I
Speaker: it was this sort of flailing emotional mess.
Speaker: I was not effective.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And, um, and yeah, so that, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker: It was, it was very much like I was not in control of it.
Speaker: It just sort of came out and, um,
Speaker: Yeah, like one of the things I want to do is take some BJJ classes to try to, because I actually like, so one of the ways that me and my stepdad connected, we didn't connect on a lot of things.
Speaker: One of the things that we intermittently would connect on is like he was learning jujitsu and we would like wrestle and that was fun to me.
Speaker: And I think it was partly because it was,
Speaker: like we were saying before, it's more about your presence in your body rather than like, where's the ball?
Speaker: Where's the team?
Speaker: And so it was a way for me to step into that landscape just more easily.
Speaker: And that's very much where he lives.
Speaker: And so it was hard to find common ground, like almost in a literal sense.
Speaker: And so it's not that I don't enjoy it.
Speaker: It's just that it's obviously a weak spot.
Speaker: It's obviously, well, and it's, I don't enjoy it enough to make it a strength, if that makes sense.
Speaker: It does, yeah.
Speaker: So, and then, so my wife's is extroverted thinking, which that's,
Speaker: What does the group think?
Speaker: What does everybody think?
Speaker: And I'm trying to figure out how that becomes, how that comes out in a situation of trauma.
Speaker: Yeah, again, it doesn't... Some of them make sense.
Speaker: Like, you're like, oh, I could visualize that.
Speaker: Like, okay, so if I want to categorize it, the way it really looks is, like, if you're full on in your superego, right?
Speaker: And for the record, guys...
Speaker: your lowest function is, so your superego is your demon function as a hero function.
Speaker: So for Dr. Bennett, it's an ESTP.
Speaker: And for me, it's an ISFP.
Speaker: And so there's essentially like a Maleficent
Speaker: Aaron Shawlman 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-
Speaker: Like, I will send you to prison and I will find all the rules that you've done wrong.
Speaker: And I'm going to be like lawful evil, essentially.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I remember every crime that you've committed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And we're going to... Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it's different than like an ESFJ being that because the ESTJ...
Speaker: it's, it's going to be like dispassionate and like, yeah, like, like you did this, you did this, you did this, you did this, you did this, therefore you go to prison forever, like, or you, or you lose your head or like whatever version of that comes out.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And, and, uh, okay.
Speaker: So, and, and I, I, um,
Speaker: I want to be careful here, both of her feelings, but also of the truth here.
Speaker: Like what I actually find in those moments.
Speaker: So, okay, now this blows the lid off something because like often when she and I will fight, I will come to the end of it feeling like we had this catharsis.
Speaker: Like we came together.
Speaker: And she'll be like, no, but I'm still mad.
Speaker: And, and, and I'll be like, no, no, I get you now.
Speaker: I, this makes so much sense.
Speaker: Like, thank you.
Speaker: Thank you for fighting with me and having this argument.
Speaker: And she's like, no, but it was exhausting.
Speaker: And, um, and I think, I think part of it is because she does kind of, she kind of goes cold.
Speaker: She becomes rational.
Speaker: She, she's very like that, that, that, these are the things that, these are the things, these are the grievances.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: And that actually is very easy for me to like metabolize.
Speaker: And I'm sort of like, oh, well, I didn't know you felt that way.
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, and for the record, that can also be alternatively, that could be just TI inferior, like, but
Speaker: It's probably not just that.
Speaker: It might be like a superego type thing.
Speaker: She's got to be mad.
Speaker: She's got to be real mad.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And yeah, it's a high stress and it's not a fun thing for her.
Speaker: And it's, I mean, it's not a fun thing for me, but it is kind of a beautiful thing for me.
Speaker: Like I, I, I'm thinking back on those moments very, very like warmly, like those were good moments.
Speaker: Cause, cause she needed to do that.
Speaker: She needed to have that transformative, um, to speak her mind.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And for someone like both, yeah.
Speaker: Especially ESFJs who are generally hyper conscientious and hyper agreeable, like,
Speaker: being in an argument is tremendously awful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like more so probably for that type than just about any other type.
Speaker: I mean, she hates it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I actually think it like combination of F.E.
Speaker: hero and S.I.
Speaker: parent and T.I.
Speaker: inferior and it's the whole game.
Speaker: Everything.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Everything about that sounds sounds really awful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But but cool.
Speaker: OK, so you so you navigated like a confrontational space and you guys learn some stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And yeah, I don't know that.
Speaker: I don't know that I have done as much exploring of that as she has, as far as my sort of demon type.
Speaker: And I mean, to be fair, she's been through more in her time than I have.
Speaker: And so you said that yours is ISFP, is that right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so when you are in this dark, miserable space,
Speaker: It's like, I'm a bad person.
Speaker: I gave everybody a bad experience.
Speaker: It's very implosive rather than explosive.
Speaker: Yeah, it tends to be implosive.
Speaker: And then at a certain point, it can be explosive, but it trends towards implosion.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So, so ISFPs can get in fights and, and hit people and stuff, but like you, you gotta go real far, but like they can, cause they're still physical, right.
Speaker: They're se, they're se parent.
Speaker: And that's true for me too.
Speaker: Like I've got a really, really long, long physical fuse, but it does erupt eventually.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And so, and that's been my experience as well.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I think, honestly, I think that having these concrete examples, at least for me, makes it feel like it removes a little bit of the sort of sprawling complexity of this model.
Speaker: And I really think that we've covered...
Speaker: the high points pretty effectively.
Speaker: We'll see what everybody thinks.
Speaker: But this was a ton of fun, man.
Speaker: And so you have these weekly calls.
Speaker: Well, I'll tell you, why don't we do it this way?
Speaker: What if I get a group of my guys together and we just bring you in for a call and we just do sort of the guys that are interested just for our group?
Speaker: I think just, yeah, I would like that.
Speaker: Well, that sounds great, man.
Speaker: Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Speaker: Check us out at exitgroup.us for Scott's group.
Speaker: Reach out to me.
Speaker: I can put you in touch and get you learning more about what he's doing.
Speaker: Thanks so much for your time, Scott.
Speaker: Yeah, thank you.
