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EXIT Podcast Episode 14: Jungian Typology
482 Plays3 years ago
Scott Fischbuch is a good friend of mine & a dangerous Jungian extremist. Most people know it as the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI), but Scott has elaborated on the system to go well beyond the standard business-school applications. We discuss:
- finding people who challenge & complement you
- how to integrate *your* shadow (not just "the shadow")
- the Jungian roots of the current ideological realignment
- how we can save the normie
- why countercultural "tribes" always come off as LARP
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Jungian Typology
00:00:17
Speaker
Welcome to the exit podcast.
00:00:18
Speaker
This is Dr. Bennett joined here by Scott Fishbook.
00:00:20
Speaker
He's a personal friend of mine and an expert on union typology.
00:00:27
Speaker
Some guys have trains.
00:00:29
Speaker
Some guys have math for Scott.
00:00:33
Speaker
It's Jungian typology.
00:00:35
Speaker
He knows everything there is to know about it.
00:00:37
Speaker
And great, great friend of mine.
00:00:39
Speaker
So welcome to the show.
00:00:41
Speaker
Hey, thanks, Dr. Bennett.
00:00:44
Speaker
Really pleased to be on a show with someone who's so educated and esteemed.
00:00:50
Speaker
Yeah,
Understanding the Four Dichotomies
00:00:50
Speaker
looking forward to it.
00:00:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's right.
00:00:54
Speaker
So let's start with a basic description of how Jungian typology works.
00:01:01
Speaker
So you have four categories, extrovert, introvert, sensing versus intuitive, feeling versus thinking, and perceiving versus judging.
00:01:10
Speaker
And two of those, I feel like are sort of popularly understood in
00:01:17
Speaker
Extrovert and introvert, people sort of know what that means, feeling and thinking, but they have a specific meaning in this context that we should probably explore first, and then we'll move on to the sensing and perceiving and judging, which are maybe a little more abstruse for people.
00:01:34
Speaker
So let's start with extrovert, introvert.
00:01:38
Speaker
What do we mean when we talk about that in terms of Jungian typology?
00:01:41
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:01:43
Speaker
And I'm sure if someone is deeply entrenched in their own Jungian typology mode, they might have a different way of looking at it.
00:01:50
Speaker
But in terms of the way that I'm looking at it, when I'm designating introvert or extrovert, I'm talking about a broad trend in how people tend to engage with the environment.
Extroversion and Introversion Explored
00:02:04
Speaker
So,
00:02:05
Speaker
is that through an externally focused lens or an internally focused lens.
00:02:10
Speaker
And so for extroversion, it's not just social.
00:02:15
Speaker
So generally when people bring up, I'm an introvert, I'm an extrovert,
00:02:20
Speaker
It almost exclusively has a very social bent.
00:02:24
Speaker
And in Jungian typology, that's not necessarily the case.
00:02:30
Speaker
It is often the case, but there are plenty of people who don't use their extroversion in a realm that's devoted to people.
00:02:41
Speaker
So to explain, you can have a dominant function of extroverted intuition.
00:02:48
Speaker
So like you, for instance.
00:02:50
Speaker
And in this scenario, what you will be generating is possibilities and ideas and essentially the way in which you manifest your extraversion is through this sort of future generation mode.
00:03:05
Speaker
where it's looking at everybody around you and figuring out where everyone wants to go and helping them navigate that process.
00:03:14
Speaker
And then you have extroverted sensing, which is in the realm of the physical, which is looking at what everyone's doing, giving people a good experience.
00:03:24
Speaker
So think about your excellent waiter or a great massage therapist or a model who is up on the stage strutting and,
00:03:34
Speaker
looking fantastic.
00:03:35
Speaker
So that would be extroverted sensing.
00:03:37
Speaker
And so in this context, an extrovert represents someone for whom their primary source of cognition is being spent outside of themselves.
00:03:47
Speaker
Whereas an introvert, an introvert in this case, is someone who leads with an introverted trait.
00:03:55
Speaker
So that could be introverted thinking, introverted feeling,
00:03:59
Speaker
And we can get into these a little further if there's interest.
00:04:02
Speaker
Sure.
00:04:04
Speaker
Introvert sensing, et cetera.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's great.
00:04:07
Speaker
Let's talk about feeling versus thinking.
00:04:10
Speaker
And because feeling and thinking are often framed as sort of being like logical versus illogical, rational versus irrational.
00:04:22
Speaker
And that's not quite what's meant here.
00:04:23
Speaker
So can you explore that a little bit?
Thinking vs. Feeling Explained
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:04:26
Speaker
So
00:04:29
Speaker
So again, and I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but it is important to remember that everyone is everything, just not to the same degree and not most of the time.
00:04:41
Speaker
So a feeler will be a thinker sometimes and vice versa.
00:04:46
Speaker
And so with that being said, moving into the sort of general definition
00:04:53
Speaker
of a thinker, it's living in the realm of true and false.
00:05:00
Speaker
Is it true?
00:05:01
Speaker
Is it false?
00:05:02
Speaker
Is it accurate?
00:05:03
Speaker
So it's not about, is this a good thing?
00:05:07
Speaker
That's the domain of ethics and morals.
00:05:10
Speaker
In this case, it's, is this efficient?
00:05:14
Speaker
Can we do it quickly?
00:05:17
Speaker
Is it pure in an intellectual sense?
00:05:20
Speaker
So that's what we're talking about when we're talking about thinking.
00:05:25
Speaker
And so thinking has two flavors, introverted and extroverted.
00:05:28
Speaker
So introverted thinking is, does this make sense to me?
00:05:32
Speaker
And it's constantly pinging your environment asking that question.
00:05:35
Speaker
And then extroverted thinking is pinging everyone else and asking, hey, what do you guys think about this?
00:05:44
Speaker
Right.
00:05:44
Speaker
So it's tribe sourced logic.
00:05:47
Speaker
Now, the realm of feeling, it's similar.
00:05:52
Speaker
So we have introverted feeling.
00:05:54
Speaker
And that's constantly asking, like, how do I feel about this?
00:05:57
Speaker
Oh, I don't like this.
00:05:59
Speaker
this isn't right in a subjective sense.
00:06:04
Speaker
And then extroverted feeling is looking at the environment and noticing, okay, four people like this thing and two people like this thing.
00:06:14
Speaker
And so the tribe clearly values this over this.
00:06:17
Speaker
So this is the good thing and this is the not good thing.
00:06:21
Speaker
And so, yeah, that's kind of how in a really short explanation, the thinking and feeling
00:06:29
Speaker
looks like so like a a logical or a rational form of feeling might be i'm reading the scriptures trying to understand a moral principle and i'm looking i'm comparing different stories and i'm trying to distill a principle that's uh you know what is the right thing to do in this or that situation would that be like a form of of feeling that is uh sort of
00:06:59
Speaker
logical or systematic or rational uh yeah so what you're describing i think is a great example of the realm of ethics and morals so as you said kind of the f domain so so yeah to answer your question okay that so that explains extrovert introvert and feeling versus thinking let's talk about sensing versus intuitive
00:07:21
Speaker
So a sensing person who leads their life primarily through the sensing world is so that's either going to be introverted sensing or extroverted sensing.
Sensing vs. Intuition
00:07:35
Speaker
So introverted sensing is subjective.
00:07:38
Speaker
So
00:07:39
Speaker
Now, do I feel comfortable in this scenario?
00:07:44
Speaker
Do I feel sick?
00:07:46
Speaker
Am I very aware of my corporeal or bodily experience?
00:07:53
Speaker
So is, whereas extroverted sensing is looking outward and saying, am I giving a good experience?
00:08:02
Speaker
Am I, do I look good for everybody?
00:08:07
Speaker
Am I dominating in a physical way?
00:08:11
Speaker
Am I like, so these type SE dominants tend to have strong physical presence.
00:08:18
Speaker
And SIs tend to be more enduring.
00:08:23
Speaker
So they can, as they are sensitive to their physical experience, they can continue their process.
00:08:31
Speaker
So these ones have a strong long-term memory, generally speaking, and do well once they have patterns and systems in place that they can follow.
00:08:46
Speaker
uh, SC users respond to the moment.
00:08:48
Speaker
So they put most of their energy into what's in front of me right now.
00:08:54
Speaker
And so, um, that's, and, and, and, yeah.
00:08:59
Speaker
So, uh, a comparison that occurs to me and you tell me if this is off base.
00:09:05
Speaker
Um, so, uh, my, uh,
00:09:10
Speaker
My sort of worst trait in my typology is SE.
00:09:15
Speaker
And like that makes sense to me from a sense of like catching and passing a ball, knowing who's open like basketball, football.
00:09:23
Speaker
That was always sort of out of the question for me.
00:09:25
Speaker
I could never get my head around it.
00:09:28
Speaker
But SI is...
00:09:31
Speaker
is much sort of higher in the stack for me, introverted sensing.
00:09:37
Speaker
And I find that I really enjoy like weightlifting because it's very much this sensation that's internal to the self.
00:09:45
Speaker
And it's about the feeling of the muscle and the feeling of the movement and like it's all inside.
00:09:53
Speaker
And so is that an illustration of the difference or is that still kind of an extroverted sensing?
00:09:59
Speaker
What you described is more common with extroverted sensors, but the way you described it is relating to introverted sensing.
00:10:08
Speaker
So like the corporeal experience, like being in your body,
00:10:16
Speaker
And that generally does relate to SE.
00:10:20
Speaker
You'll find a lot more SE users in the gym.
00:10:24
Speaker
But that said, yeah, I'm kind of parsing that in my head, sort of distinguishing which of the two it is.
00:10:33
Speaker
I would honestly say that's more extroverted sensing.
00:10:35
Speaker
So that's probably you exploring territory that, um, feels unnatural.
00:10:42
Speaker
Um, but that said, if I remember correctly, you're doing it within the realms of your personal comfort.
00:10:48
Speaker
Like you're, you're slowly expanding that space.
00:10:52
Speaker
Uh, and, and yeah, for an ENFP, that's super commendable.
00:10:56
Speaker
It's that's, that's really good.
00:10:58
Speaker
Um,
00:10:59
Speaker
you'll find a lot of personal growth by working on that particular space.
00:11:05
Speaker
Awesome.
00:11:06
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:06
Speaker
So that's sensing and the counterpart to that is intuition.
00:11:13
Speaker
So tell me about specifically the difference between intuition and sensing, and then we'll go into extroverted intuition, introverted intuition.
Abstract vs. Concrete Personality Types
00:11:22
Speaker
Sure.
00:11:22
Speaker
So the difference, yeah, the biggest one and the easiest one to pick up on is just the things that intuitive types talk about versus the things that sensing types talk about.
00:11:33
Speaker
So in a conversation, the sensing types will tend to want to pull it down from the lofty to the concrete.
00:11:43
Speaker
And I'm not saying they're not intelligent or smart.
00:11:47
Speaker
I mean that they're putting a foot in the abstract and then as quickly as possible, bringing out the treasure from that zone to be applied practically.
00:11:57
Speaker
How does it cash out?
00:11:58
Speaker
They want to explore that space so that they can exploit it.
00:12:02
Speaker
Like it's not like they're intrinsically as interested in that as an intuitive type.
00:12:07
Speaker
They want to get what they can get out of it to use.
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah, or they just, yeah, it's a sort of sense of comfort.
00:12:14
Speaker
So yeah, it is about practical utility, as you said.
00:12:18
Speaker
So it's not an end within itself.
00:12:23
Speaker
It's a territory that they'll conquer and then bring back the wisdom.
00:12:30
Speaker
Now, not to be super abstract, but I listened to some of your podcasts and I think one of them that was exceedingly abstract was the one you had with, I'm trying to remember his name, but he was in Miami and he was, as you said, a tech bro.
00:12:47
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:12:48
Speaker
There were tons of analogies everywhere.
00:12:51
Speaker
Everything was abstract almost.
00:12:56
Speaker
And it was kind of crazy to listen to.
00:12:59
Speaker
And what I mean by that is they'll say something.
00:13:07
Speaker
Well, how can I distill this to answer your question?
00:13:12
Speaker
So the abstract person is going to be talking about ideas and concepts.
00:13:16
Speaker
And then the concrete person is going to be describing something in a way that you could
00:13:25
Speaker
in your mind, see it.
00:13:28
Speaker
You can look at the thing that they're describing.
00:13:31
Speaker
If they're telling a story,
00:13:34
Speaker
like they'll say things like he was super sweaty and there was sweat dripping down his face and he was bent over and panting.
00:13:40
Speaker
It's sensory.
00:13:42
Speaker
It doesn't exist in the ethereal or the platonic or the world of models or forms.
00:13:49
Speaker
It's a sensory experience.
00:13:51
Speaker
So that, I mean, I think that connects the intuition of it.
00:13:53
Speaker
Well, that's funny.
00:13:56
Speaker
It connects my idea of sensing to this concept.
00:13:59
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:14:01
Speaker
our friend Adam is a sensing type and he tells a story of how he got in trouble in high school once.
00:14:12
Speaker
And it's so rich with detail and like, then this happened and then this happened, but it's, but it's very, he's not telling you anything about like what it all meant or how it all felt or, or, um,
00:14:28
Speaker
sort of the big picture ramifications of it.
00:14:31
Speaker
It's very in the moment.
00:14:35
Speaker
And, you know, uh, what's cool about that is it's still interesting to an intuitive type like myself, because I read the details and then I do the work of deciding what it means.
00:14:46
Speaker
And so I almost feel like there's a, there's a, maybe a gift for being a novelist in that kind of type, because they don't, um,
00:14:55
Speaker
They don't hand you what it means because that can be sort of off-putting.
00:15:03
Speaker
They just want to give you this portrait, this picture of a scene of an event.
00:15:12
Speaker
And then you kind of get to do the exercise of extrapolating meaning.
00:15:18
Speaker
And I actually had occasion to talk to his mom and dad about...
00:15:23
Speaker
that particular situation, which sort of got them in trouble too.
00:15:26
Speaker
And we talked about what it all meant.
00:15:30
Speaker
And so I think that's maybe an illustration of the difference here is that we both can understand both of those experiences, but our sort of preference and our inclination and our first take on it is
00:15:51
Speaker
you know, he's about the details and the experience of it sensorily.
00:15:57
Speaker
And I'm about, okay, what does this tell me about the big picture about moral principles about sort of the meaning of life?
00:16:06
Speaker
Does that make sense?
00:16:08
Speaker
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
00:16:11
Speaker
And I love SEO hero storytellers.
00:16:15
Speaker
So people that lead with extroverted sensing, in my experience, are the best.
00:16:20
Speaker
Like, I love sitting there and listening to it.
00:16:24
Speaker
So probably similar to you.
00:16:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:29
Speaker
So that's sensing and intuitive.
00:16:30
Speaker
That makes some sense.
00:16:33
Speaker
Maybe you could call that abstract versus concrete.
00:16:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:36
Speaker
That
Perceiving vs. Judging and Kiersey Temperaments
00:16:36
Speaker
has its own...
00:16:40
Speaker
loss of detail, but that's another way to think about it.
00:16:43
Speaker
And then you've got perceiving versus judging.
00:16:46
Speaker
So tell me about what, let's go into the introvert extrovert after we just discuss the distinction between perceiving and judging.
00:16:56
Speaker
Okay, so perceiving, it means in your top two functions, you have a S or an N. So perceiving types have a strong gathering mentality of information.
00:17:15
Speaker
So a perceiver takes in the information and the place where they're critical is internally.
00:17:25
Speaker
So a perceiver will take in like the,
00:17:33
Speaker
the outside world and the place where they're critical of it is inside.
00:17:37
Speaker
So I guess, and how does that look?
00:17:43
Speaker
So these people tend to be the rule breakers, the perceivers, because where they find their identity and sense of truth or right and wrong comes inside.
00:17:59
Speaker
Whereas for the judges,
00:18:02
Speaker
David Apsley, That sense of right and wrong comes from the tribe so so the judging types pick up on and then seek to instill externalized sets of values or logic, whereas the perceivers.
00:18:22
Speaker
It's very subjective.
00:18:23
Speaker
It's a place of identity.
00:18:26
Speaker
So an ESTP is going to physically break the rules.
00:18:32
Speaker
So they're going to be like your skater types.
00:18:36
Speaker
And then this is also true for the ESFP.
00:18:39
Speaker
So essentially, it's about where does your source of order come from?
00:18:45
Speaker
And so for the perceivers, it comes internally.
00:18:49
Speaker
whereas for the judges, it comes from the outside.
00:18:53
Speaker
And then that manifests by, yeah, I don't know if you can extrapolate the answer from that.
00:19:01
Speaker
Is conforming versus non-conforming too oversimplified?
00:19:08
Speaker
Is there a way that you could distinguish it from that?
00:19:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:13
Speaker
You know, there's gradients of it.
00:19:17
Speaker
So obviously, the most conforming, the ones that seek to conform or create conformity, tends to be the J types.
00:19:24
Speaker
But I find that to be most true of the SJs.
00:19:29
Speaker
But yeah, I do think you can make that very broad picture with the types.
00:19:35
Speaker
So conformity versus nonconformity.
00:19:40
Speaker
I'm thinking of exceptions, but generally that seems to be the case.
00:19:44
Speaker
Well, and maybe as we dig a little bit deeper, we can explore those exceptions.
00:19:47
Speaker
But if it gives us sort of a framework to start from.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:53
Speaker
So, and you mentioned the SJ types, and this is a good point.
00:19:57
Speaker
So we've explored the four types.
00:19:59
Speaker
This is a good opportunity to go into these Kiersey temperaments, which a researcher named Kiersey came up with, but it doesn't make any difference.
00:20:09
Speaker
You've got the guardian type, which is sensing and judging.
00:20:15
Speaker
So these are, like we said, if it's abstract versus concrete, these people are concrete and more conformist.
00:20:23
Speaker
And so you've got the artisan type, which is sensing and perceiving.
00:20:30
Speaker
So these people are concrete, but they are nonconformist or more sort of rule breaking.
00:20:38
Speaker
You've got the idealists, which are intuitive feelers, which means they live in the world of abstract concepts and they are particularly interested in questions of value and right and wrong and good and bad.
00:20:54
Speaker
And then you've got the rationalists who live in that same world of abstract concepts, but they're more considered about like, is it factual?
00:21:02
Speaker
Is it coherent?
00:21:03
Speaker
Is it precise?
00:21:03
Speaker
Is it pure?
00:21:04
Speaker
Yes.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:05
Speaker
So tell us a little bit about, well, so my friend Adam that we were just talking about, he's done a similar thing to what you've done in terms of taking these basic models and elaborating them substantially.
00:21:21
Speaker
But he sticks with just the four temperament types.
00:21:25
Speaker
Whereas you explore, there's a full 16 combinations of all these traits.
00:21:34
Speaker
And so going from four to 16 obviously introduces a ton of detail and complexity that can be a little bit hard to follow.
00:21:41
Speaker
So there's a trade off there where you are trading in some complexity and some difficulty and making it harder to explain potentially in exchange for some value.
00:21:56
Speaker
So what do you think is the added value from breaking it out further?
00:22:01
Speaker
Uh,
Breaking Down 16 Personality Types
00:22:02
Speaker
you can, uh, be highly customizable with your approach.
00:22:07
Speaker
Uh, I would say that is the most obvious added value.
00:22:11
Speaker
Maybe give me an example of, uh, let's say two types of rationalists who are meaningfully different enough when you break it out into the 16 types that, uh, it's worth exploring that instead of just saying, ah, you're both rationalists.
00:22:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:30
Speaker
So first off, and I thought you explained it really well, there is a trade-off between ease of use and complexity.
00:22:41
Speaker
So yeah, just agreeing with what you said earlier.
00:22:46
Speaker
Now, in the case of, okay, if we're comparing two rationalists, let's compare myself and an ENTGA.
00:22:55
Speaker
So you're an INTP, first of all, right?
00:22:58
Speaker
Yes.
00:22:59
Speaker
So that's introverted, abstract, concerned with questions of fact, and nonconformist.
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:09
Speaker
And so the most obvious way that you were going to differentiate an INTP and an ENTJ is in cognitive functions.
00:23:18
Speaker
So if you break down the cognitive functions of an INTP, you have TI dominant, extroverted intuiting parent or second, and then you have SI, and at the very bottom, you have FE, right?
00:23:33
Speaker
Now let's contrast that with the ENTJ who leads with extroverted thinking, follows with introverted intuition, then has extroverted sensing and introverted feeling.
00:23:46
Speaker
So if you notice, as I'm saying those things, they're literally the opposite of each other.
00:23:50
Speaker
So what that means is, whereas the INTP is a source of personal identity, logic, coherence, and accuracy, extroverted thinkers
00:24:01
Speaker
are pulling in all of the introverted thinking of the tribe and then choosing one.
00:24:08
Speaker
So they are essentially an organizer of tribe thought.
00:24:15
Speaker
And then moving down, extrovert intuitive in the INTP manifests as what does everybody want?
00:24:23
Speaker
So they're driven to find out what the group wants, where the group is headed.
00:24:29
Speaker
They're about creating patterns.
00:24:33
Speaker
Whereas NI is about taking all those patterns and distilling it into their own personal future.
00:24:41
Speaker
And then you can continue all the way down with like a breakdown of the functions.
00:24:45
Speaker
But my point here.
00:24:46
Speaker
So it might be good.
00:24:48
Speaker
You know, I'm realizing that in order to answer that question, you sort of have to deal with the hierarchy of cognitive functions.
00:24:58
Speaker
And that's immensely complex.
00:25:01
Speaker
And it's a challenge to articulate.
00:25:05
Speaker
I think maybe in this case,
00:25:08
Speaker
I think you've done a good job though of like the ENTJ is very much like personally motivated by like we're going to take all the tribe's ideas and we're going to do what I want to do.
00:25:25
Speaker
We're going to head toward my goal.
00:25:28
Speaker
And you're reversed, which is I want to talk about what I think and
00:25:37
Speaker
we're going to sort of, you're, you're almost, you're almost producers and consumers of, of corresponding functions.
00:25:45
Speaker
Like ENTJ, you're going to tell ENTJ what to think.
00:25:50
Speaker
He's going to tell you what to do.
00:25:52
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:54
Speaker
So, okay.
00:25:54
Speaker
That's, that's really interesting.
00:25:55
Speaker
So,
00:26:00
Speaker
There's a hierarchy of cognitive function.
00:26:03
Speaker
Like you said, everybody does everything, but they do them at a different remove or a different order.
00:26:09
Speaker
And you mentioned that there's hero, parent, child, inferior.
00:26:15
Speaker
Those are the four main ones.
00:26:17
Speaker
And then lower down the stack, you have nemesis, critic, trickster, demon.
00:26:22
Speaker
And this is where it's sort of...
00:26:26
Speaker
It gets complex to the point that a lot of people will just sort of write it off as, as, as woo.
00:26:30
Speaker
And as, as you know, kind of made up as an ENFP, I don't particularly care whether or not it's woo.
00:26:38
Speaker
Like I find it fun and useful either way.
00:26:44
Speaker
But so the distinction has to do with whether, first of all, it's in order of how often you use them and how much you prefer them.
00:26:54
Speaker
But it has to do with, are you skilled at it?
00:27:01
Speaker
And are you sort of optimistic or pessimistic about how you apply it?
00:27:07
Speaker
So the hero, the primary function is something that you're good at and you know you're good at it and it's optimistic, it's exploratory, it's conquering sort of.
00:27:17
Speaker
And then the parent function, which is the next one down the stack, is you're still good at it, but it's pessimistic, it's protective, it's self-defensive, it's sort of wary and looking out.
00:27:30
Speaker
And so...
00:27:34
Speaker
So tell me about your stack and how that caches out for you, the hero and the parent function.
Introduction to Cognitive Functions
00:27:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:43
Speaker
So, oh, and great synopsis.
00:27:46
Speaker
That's exactly how it works.
00:27:49
Speaker
And two, I don't know if this is meaningful to your viewership, but it does mean a lot to me that the system works.
00:28:00
Speaker
So I recognize and sort of take in the fact that for most people, this sort of realm is
00:28:11
Speaker
woo-woo and esoteric, but for me personally, it's very important that things cohere, make sense, and can be applied to reality.
00:28:23
Speaker
And thus far, in my experience, it works very well.
00:28:27
Speaker
Although, admittedly, it has taken a long time to reach the degree of expertise where
00:28:32
Speaker
The complexity doesn't overwhelm the practical application.
00:28:36
Speaker
Now, returning to my functional stack and the question, if I remember, was how does that break down for me personally?
00:28:44
Speaker
Well, specifically for the hero and the parent, because I want to talk about the distinction because you can go into like, I'm better at this, I'm worse at this.
00:28:53
Speaker
But the distinction I'm interested in is I'm optimistic versus I'm pessimistic.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:59
Speaker
when it comes, in my case, when it comes to TI Hero, I volunteer my thoughts all the time.
00:29:07
Speaker
Like, this is what I think.
00:29:08
Speaker
Even when people aren't particularly interested, I'm like, here, let me just lambast you with tons of ideas.
00:29:20
Speaker
And so my natural propensity is just to go bounding
00:29:24
Speaker
into the intellectual territory of ideas and talk about them.
00:29:30
Speaker
And then moving down, and so that's what the optimistic element of it looks like.
00:29:38
Speaker
So I'll share an idea and I'll be like, here's an idea, here's an idea, here's another one.
00:29:42
Speaker
And that's because there's a certain facility towards understanding what I think is true, right?
00:29:48
Speaker
If something comes easily to you,
00:29:50
Speaker
um handing it out and dropping it off you're not as careful with it even though you're perhaps gifted with it uh you and then moving down and this is true of every function in that in that space uh so so yeah that's how the optimism looks it's like oh uh um okay moving so my well so just to compare so my hero function is extroverted intuition and um
00:30:18
Speaker
You mentioned I'm going to throw out a million ideas.
00:30:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:23
Speaker
An idea can mean more than one thing, right?
00:30:25
Speaker
So because my function is,
00:30:29
Speaker
You're doing introverted thinking.
00:30:30
Speaker
I'm doing extroverted intuition.
00:30:32
Speaker
But they both involve throwing a ton of ideas at people.
00:30:36
Speaker
They're just different types of idea.
00:30:37
Speaker
So you're like throwing sort of like factual concepts.
00:30:42
Speaker
Like here's what I think.
00:30:44
Speaker
Here's what I've sort of deduced or decided about a question of fact.
00:30:51
Speaker
And what I do on all these phone calls, these one-on-one calls as part of exit group is I listen to other people's cognition and their feeling and where they're at.
00:31:06
Speaker
And I throw a bunch of ideas at them in the sense of here are some possibilities.
00:31:10
Speaker
Here are some tracks you could take.
00:31:12
Speaker
Here are some things you could do.
00:31:14
Speaker
It's ideas in the sense of,
00:31:19
Speaker
directions and paths to travel versus just sort of ideas in the sense of being concepts or calculations or deductions.
00:31:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:33
Speaker
So yeah, that's, that's a great example.
00:31:35
Speaker
And that is exactly how extroverted intuition works.
00:31:40
Speaker
Although I will say this, a lot of times, ENFPs are very capable of doing this, but they sometimes don't.
00:31:49
Speaker
So I would actually say in this case, you're really extending yourself by putting yourself in a situation where
00:31:55
Speaker
you're providing a lot of value to the tribe.
00:31:57
Speaker
Whereas a lot of times ENFPs tend to do the possibility generation primarily in a sort of contractual like quid pro quo kind of way.
00:32:08
Speaker
So I would say in this case, you're sort of stepping out of the bounds of what is, and this breaks down to like interest versus systematic and other elements.
00:32:21
Speaker
Yeah, so I think what you're doing with your guys is really commendable and awesome.
00:32:25
Speaker
And so it's basically like using your superpowers for good, which is cool.
00:32:31
Speaker
Awesome.
00:32:32
Speaker
So that's both of our hero functions.
00:32:37
Speaker
And then so what's your parent function?
00:32:41
Speaker
Parent function is extroverted intuition.
00:32:43
Speaker
So your hero function is my parent function.
00:32:46
Speaker
Okay.
00:32:47
Speaker
And so how, how the fact that it's your parent function, how does your use of that differ from mine?
00:32:56
Speaker
Um, I'm more of a cautionary guy.
00:32:58
Speaker
I'm like, I can see what you want and,
Manifestations of Parent Functions
00:33:02
Speaker
you know, here's some things you could do, but yeah, it's more, um, like maybe this doesn't, Hey, Hey, watch out.
00:33:10
Speaker
Maybe this doesn't get you what you want.
00:33:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly the flavor of it that I have.
00:33:16
Speaker
And that would be true for most INTPs.
00:33:19
Speaker
So when they engage in, and that's not saying they always do it that way, but it is that way frequently.
00:33:30
Speaker
And then that's a good voice to listen to.
00:33:34
Speaker
So like you'll have your optimistic options
00:33:38
Speaker
And you're, you're, I guess you're more judicious, um, uh, more cautious options coming from any parent.
00:33:49
Speaker
Okay.
00:33:50
Speaker
And then, so my parent is FI, which is, which is, do I think this is right or good?
00:33:59
Speaker
And, um, it's very much, um,
00:34:04
Speaker
It's very much about conscience.
00:34:09
Speaker
And yeah, that's definitely my place of caution is I'm constantly sort of examining myself.
00:34:14
Speaker
Like, I don't know if this is right.
00:34:16
Speaker
I don't know if I feel good about this.
00:34:19
Speaker
And so, yeah, that's the sense in which it is pessimistic.
00:34:24
Speaker
What would an optimistic FI be like?
00:34:29
Speaker
A parent FI.
00:34:31
Speaker
So they would be comparatively less interested.
00:34:35
Speaker
So each function is attached to another.
00:34:38
Speaker
And this is a good time to mention that.
00:34:40
Speaker
So fi is connected to te.
00:34:42
Speaker
So a person that sources their sense of value internally sources logic externally.
00:34:51
Speaker
And so in this case, you will lean a little more into tribe logic
00:35:00
Speaker
when weighing your sense of value so you'll you'll go to the group more frequently than an fi hero to find out what they think about your emotional response does that make sense uh so that like an infp is is more confident about like this is right i don't care what anybody thinks
00:35:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, they still care.
00:35:26
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm more like, I have this strong feeling, but I'm going to go check up.
00:35:31
Speaker
I'm going to go see what people think.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yes.
00:35:34
Speaker
That sounds right.
00:35:35
Speaker
That sounds right to me.
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:39
Speaker
So then you've got the child function, which is weaker than the parent function, and it's optimistic.
00:35:46
Speaker
And
Role of the Child Function
00:35:46
Speaker
you and I were talking about this earlier.
00:35:48
Speaker
You mentioned that it's sort of like,
00:35:51
Speaker
a little kid playing and like when they get in trouble, when they, when, when something goes wrong, it's a total surprise to them.
00:36:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:00
Speaker
They're, they're, they're blindsided by it.
00:36:03
Speaker
And my child function is extroverted thinking.
00:36:06
Speaker
And I asked you, how do you, how do you screw up extroverted thinking?
00:36:12
Speaker
And you mentioned like, well, you'll just absorb ideas.
00:36:16
Speaker
And if they seem good, like you'll just accept them as fact.
00:36:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:22
Speaker
And that's 100% true for me as far as, and that's, so my Twitter account is very much critical on questions of value and totally uninterested in questions of fact.
00:36:41
Speaker
And like, so, so I'll be constantly talking about like, look at these interdimensional psychic pedophile vampires and all the horrible things they're doing to everybody.
00:36:56
Speaker
But when it comes to like, oh, do you think that there's like a Nazi moon base on Antarctica or on the dark side of the moon?
00:37:02
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, like, sure.
00:37:04
Speaker
Why not?
00:37:04
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:37:05
Speaker
Wow.
00:37:06
Speaker
Wow.
00:37:10
Speaker
Cool, bro.
00:37:10
Speaker
That's great.
00:37:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:13
Speaker
So it's just sort of, and that as my child function, that makes sense.
00:37:16
Speaker
Like it's, it's a fun space to play in, but like, I don't, and, and, you know, you can get in trouble if you, if you absorb, um,
00:37:26
Speaker
Well, I mean, that's ultimately how I got doxxed is I was exploring dangerous ideas and people didn't like that.
00:37:32
Speaker
And it got me in real big trouble.
00:37:35
Speaker
And so that totally makes sense as a child function.
00:37:40
Speaker
So your child function is introverted sensing, which is like comfort and the experience of being in the body.
00:37:51
Speaker
Can you explain maybe the...
00:37:54
Speaker
the innocence and the optimism and also potentially the danger of that function.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, and it's easy for me to explain that because I experience it every day and I'm aware of it.
00:38:06
Speaker
So SI is loyal and it does what it's always done.
00:38:12
Speaker
That's what SI does.
00:38:14
Speaker
And in the child function, it's really naive.
00:38:18
Speaker
So it's about being comfortable all the time, just all the time being comfortable.
00:38:25
Speaker
I'm going to watch and especially in the INTPs, we're consuming type.
00:38:31
Speaker
So we'll consume information in massive quantities.
00:38:34
Speaker
And then and we'll we'll consume similar flavors of info.
00:38:38
Speaker
And so we're we are the type that will sit down and watch movies for eight hours or or insert whatever it happens to be.
00:38:48
Speaker
It may not be movies.
00:38:49
Speaker
Maybe it's the typology.
00:38:53
Speaker
Yeah, maybe it's Jungian typology.
00:38:59
Speaker
And so it's the basement dwelling Dorito desk guy on his computer that never leaves his house and stays within the known in terms of a physical sense.
00:39:19
Speaker
So an SI parent
00:39:23
Speaker
how would, how would that differ?
00:39:24
Speaker
Like, you're still optimistic, but like, you're, you're like strong.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, so SI parent, they have a much greater sense of what is expected and what is known and what's happened in the past.
00:39:41
Speaker
And you have to remember though, SI parents are the guardians.
00:39:46
Speaker
And so the way that looks is I remember what made me uncomfortable.
00:39:53
Speaker
I remember it and I'm going to avoid it.
00:39:57
Speaker
So they are more responsible than SI child.
00:40:02
Speaker
They remember their patterns, their routines, and they seek to uphold them and maintain them.
00:40:08
Speaker
Whereas for an INTP or an INFP, which are both SI child,
00:40:13
Speaker
there's less of an interest in establishing a routine.
00:40:17
Speaker
So in spite of the fact that they thrive and do a great, get a great deal out of routine, they don't seek to instill it on themselves.
00:40:27
Speaker
So it's, it's more about how do I feel in the body right now versus taking care of the set of me across space and time, like, like, you know,
00:40:43
Speaker
I not only care about how I feel right now, I care about how I'm going to feel.
00:40:48
Speaker
And so maybe I'm not going to eat the Doritos.
00:40:50
Speaker
Like, yeah, yeah.
00:40:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:53
Speaker
That's perfect because so the higher up introverted sensing is the more attuned you are to the future you and your physical comfort.
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:04
Speaker
That's really cool.
00:41:05
Speaker
So, um,
00:41:08
Speaker
So that's, that's, and then, and then you've got the inferior function, which is sort of the first one that like you're bad at and you sort of know you're bad at it.
The Inferior Function and Social Growth
00:41:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:21
Speaker
Tell me a little bit.
00:41:21
Speaker
So your extrovert feeling, that's your inferior function, which is what are the tribe's values?
00:41:30
Speaker
What, what, what does everybody have?
00:41:33
Speaker
What's everybody's moral conclusions or value conclusions, good and bad?
00:41:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:39
Speaker
So how is that an inferior function for you?
00:41:41
Speaker
How does that cash out?
00:41:44
Speaker
It comes out as a nervousness that I will fail socially.
00:41:51
Speaker
And so less and less the case as I add experiences to my life.
00:41:56
Speaker
Right.
00:41:56
Speaker
But again, that SI child wants to be comfortable and they know that these these this social environment can be exhausting and tiring.
00:42:07
Speaker
And so why expand that territory if I can return to the places that are safe for me?
00:42:17
Speaker
And so FE, it's like I've tried to pay a lot of attention to it.
00:42:23
Speaker
And so I seek out.
00:42:26
Speaker
So, hey, hey, how are you feeling?
00:42:28
Speaker
How are you doing?
00:42:28
Speaker
Do you like the information that I'm giving you?
00:42:32
Speaker
um is yeah you do you do uh you you check in quite a lot on yeah is this and again it's it to say that it's moral values is not quite right in this context because it's more like am i boring or annoying you like do you think i'm do you think i'm a bad person not in a moral sense but like in a like i just don't i dislike you sense i
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's less, and I'm not saying FE is shallow, but given that it's pinging off the tribe and it's sourcing all of these ideas in this sort of like,
00:43:14
Speaker
grassroots kind of way.
00:43:18
Speaker
And then in the case of the INTP, it's doing it like kind of nervously.
00:43:22
Speaker
Right.
00:43:25
Speaker
Because they remember their bad experiences, right?
00:43:30
Speaker
From SI.
00:43:32
Speaker
And so it puts it.
00:43:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:34
Speaker
But that said, INTPs will experience their greatest growth in this category.
00:43:39
Speaker
So SI is about obligation.
00:43:43
Speaker
And FE is about delivering value to people that they like and appreciate in an emotional sense.
00:43:51
Speaker
And so an INTP has perfect ease within the intellectual realm, but they'll be more balanced if they develop these traditions of social engagement that sort of enriched their life along with providing value to the tribe.
00:44:10
Speaker
Well, so like I have to routinize
00:44:13
Speaker
the gym, uh, because if I don't routine eyes that I won't choose to do it.
00:44:19
Speaker
And routine is a big challenge for me.
00:44:21
Speaker
So my, my, my inferior is SI.
00:44:25
Speaker
Um, and my, which means my, my demon, my bottom, uh, quality, my lowest, uh, trait is extroverted sensing.
00:44:32
Speaker
And so I, in order to experience that growth, I have to step into that sort of realm of the routine.
00:44:43
Speaker
and make it something that I do without thinking on that basis.
00:44:49
Speaker
But I'm the type of guy who thinks about what needs to happen all the time.
00:44:54
Speaker
And so like, it's very easy and very natural for me to talk myself out of what I need to do.
00:45:03
Speaker
Because I'm constantly in that evaluative state.
00:45:05
Speaker
Like, is this a good or bad thing to do?
00:45:07
Speaker
And so the way that you need to routinize social interaction
00:45:14
Speaker
is similar to the way that I need to routinize physical exercise and, and sort of caring for my physical appearance and my physical comfort.
00:45:24
Speaker
So like you're, you're you should probably like have, I know you have like a weekly meeting where you talk about these archetypes with a small group.
00:45:37
Speaker
And that's probably really, really good for you because like,
00:45:41
Speaker
you might be inclined to not feel like doing that and go hide out.
00:45:45
Speaker
But this is like, I know it's going to be good for me.
00:45:48
Speaker
I know it's going to be a positive experience and it's going to involve some growth and I need to put it into my life deliberately.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:59
Speaker
Amen.
00:45:59
Speaker
So, um,
00:46:05
Speaker
In our group, we actually have lots of guys like you.
00:46:10
Speaker
The folks that have sort of, I haven't like done any polling, but we just got started talking about these archetypes and the self-reported.
00:46:17
Speaker
I know that you feel like the self-reports are not always great.
00:46:21
Speaker
And we'll talk about that in a second.
00:46:23
Speaker
But according to self-reporting, we've got like four or five INTPs like you, three ENFPs that we include, including myself,
00:46:33
Speaker
some ISTPs, some ENTPs, and then a bunch of other one-off types.
00:46:38
Speaker
Do you have any thoughts on why this idea or this group might particularly appeal to INTPs?
INTP Identity Challenges
00:46:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:48
Speaker
So I find that INTPs have such a strong sense of identity that's disconnected from fitting in with the tribe, right?
00:47:00
Speaker
Because their tribe function, the only one they've got, is in their inferior slot.
00:47:07
Speaker
it makes it difficult in terms of fitting in.
00:47:11
Speaker
And so at a certain point, and also because of that, they identify with the fringes, like the edge, because they're just like, I don't get why fitting in matters so much.
00:47:25
Speaker
But then at a certain point, like later in life, they'll be like, I feel lonely.
00:47:29
Speaker
Right.
00:47:30
Speaker
Right.
00:47:31
Speaker
I feel bad and I don't know how to fix it.
00:47:34
Speaker
And gosh, it's so hard.
00:47:36
Speaker
And then sometimes that can turn into resentment.
00:47:39
Speaker
Sometimes that can turn into arrogance.
00:47:41
Speaker
So they can think, oh, and this is easy for an INTP because, you know, they have such a strong TI.
00:47:47
Speaker
They're just like, ah, the reason I don't fit in is everyone is dumb or like,
00:47:54
Speaker
is because no one gets my genius or some flavor of that.
00:48:01
Speaker
And if that's the case for AITPs out there, I understand and I would caution to avoid that mentality as much as possible.
00:48:17
Speaker
But it is, I mean, the whole concept of being doxxed is fundamentally about
00:48:24
Speaker
my introverted thinking got me in trouble with the tribe.
00:48:28
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:48:29
Speaker
And so it's like, screw you.
00:48:32
Speaker
I'm going to keep doing my introverted thinking and I'm going to organize my life in whatever way I have to so that I can keep doing this because it's important and I'm right and you're stupid.
00:48:42
Speaker
Well, I can't say I don't feel that way.
00:48:47
Speaker
And I mean, obviously, so one of the ways in which
00:48:52
Speaker
that can become a problem.
00:48:53
Speaker
So I will say, you know, what you're saying sounds right on because the two things that I have encountered in my one-on-one calls with the guys is everybody's like, I'm tired of not having a community.
00:49:07
Speaker
And everybody's like, the path that I'm on is not delivering meaning.
00:49:14
Speaker
And so, yeah, they want community, they want meaning.
00:49:19
Speaker
And, you know, hopefully what I'm providing in part is, so I've got that extroverted thinking child and hopefully, so last night we had this call where five different people presented their business ideas and they were just the coolest ideas.
00:49:40
Speaker
And I, I,
00:49:43
Speaker
I had, I had sort of extracted these from the one-on-one calls and I was like, that idea is amazing.
00:49:47
Speaker
Everyone needs to hear about it.
00:49:49
Speaker
And, um, so as that sort of extroverted thinking child, I'm taking the, the, the groups TI, all of their cool ideas.
00:49:59
Speaker
And I'm in a really optimistic way.
00:50:01
Speaker
I'm like, these ideas are great.
00:50:03
Speaker
We're going to tell everybody.
00:50:05
Speaker
And, um,
00:50:08
Speaker
And then sort of once they've explained their idea, we invite the group to sort of pick them apart is the wrong word because it wasn't negative at all, but like explore them.
00:50:18
Speaker
Like what if you did it this way and what would this mean?
00:50:21
Speaker
And like, so it's very much the, my hero function, which is extroverted intuition, which is options.
00:50:30
Speaker
What do we do?
00:50:30
Speaker
What course do we take?
00:50:32
Speaker
Does the group take for the good of the group?
00:50:35
Speaker
And
00:50:36
Speaker
Extroverted thinking, which is what does everybody think?
00:50:39
Speaker
How can I synthesize it?
00:50:40
Speaker
How can I bring it together?
00:50:43
Speaker
And so it makes sense that that call was like just unbelievably fun for me.
00:50:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:52
Speaker
And maybe it also makes sense for these guys because they got to do their TI.
00:50:57
Speaker
They got to express their feelings and their thinking as part of a community that accepted those ideas and thought they were cool.
00:51:06
Speaker
And they also... That's tremendous.
00:51:09
Speaker
Like, especially for an INTP who sources so much of their identity from their intellectual space.
00:51:16
Speaker
So especially for the INTPs, that is so crucial.
00:51:21
Speaker
Yeah, and so maybe also the secondary component of that, which is the extroverted intuition, is, OK, where can we take this now?
00:51:33
Speaker
What can we do with this?
00:51:34
Speaker
How can we move the ball?
00:51:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:40
Speaker
So OK, so I think that basically, I think that's enough to explain why it would appeal particularly to that type.
ISTP vs. ENTP
00:51:50
Speaker
The other types, so we've got some ISTPs and some ENTPs.
00:51:56
Speaker
Can we talk just briefly about those types and maybe where they would fit or how we could appeal to them or what it might mean to them?
00:52:07
Speaker
So which types again?
00:52:09
Speaker
ISTP and ENTP.
00:52:12
Speaker
Okay.
00:52:15
Speaker
So...
00:52:16
Speaker
ISTP, okay.
00:52:19
Speaker
They're going to have very different needs, both ISTPs and ENTPs.
00:52:24
Speaker
So ISTPs, they know what they want because they have NI in their child slot.
00:52:32
Speaker
And so giving them options is huge, right?
00:52:36
Speaker
Because they're like, oh, good.
00:52:37
Speaker
I can gobble up all of these options.
00:52:40
Speaker
Okay.
00:52:40
Speaker
And do these options make sense to me?
00:52:43
Speaker
Okay, so probably of all the types, from what you offer, they're most likely to be able to catalyze it because they're a movement type, they get things done, they wanna get rolling as quickly as possible.
00:52:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:01
Speaker
And so and these are the guys that are the experience givers.
00:53:06
Speaker
They're the daredevils.
00:53:08
Speaker
They usually like biking or skiing or skateboarding or I want to say they like hiking, but that's usually for people that have SE a little lower.
00:53:21
Speaker
So wait, these are we're talking about ISTPs or ESTPs?
00:53:24
Speaker
Chris Steininger, ISTPs so ISTPs and ISTPs will have a fair bit in common.
00:53:28
Speaker
Chris Steininger, ISTPs though will have a stronger sense of what they think makes sense because it's TI hero.
00:53:35
Speaker
Chris Steininger, And then their extroverted sensing is in the parent slot so they're going to be more careful about the experience that they give other people.
00:53:43
Speaker
Chris Steininger, ISTPs so.
00:53:46
Speaker
ESTPs and ESFPs are more likely to be the pranksters to invite everybody over for a good time.
00:53:51
Speaker
Yeah, let's throw these experiences out.
00:53:56
Speaker
Whereas the ISTP and the ISFP are a lot more careful about the experiences.
00:54:01
Speaker
So they tend to be more subtle.
00:54:05
Speaker
Like if they'll want to give good gifts, I don't want to go too far into it.
00:54:09
Speaker
Well, so I will say the ISTPs that I've spoken to,
00:54:16
Speaker
are much more critical of the options that I present.
00:54:20
Speaker
And I don't mean that in like a negative way.
00:54:22
Speaker
I mean, like they'll tell me immediately why they don't think they'll work.
00:54:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:27
Speaker
And other types will be like, oh, that's interesting.
00:54:29
Speaker
Those are really good ideas.
00:54:31
Speaker
And I think that my inclination is to interpret that as like, I'm not delivering, but maybe for these types, it's they are...
00:54:45
Speaker
actually engaging with the idea in a very immediate way.
00:54:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:52
Speaker
And so, because I mean, I do the same thing.
00:54:55
Speaker
I immediately sort of think about, you know, what would it mean?
00:55:00
Speaker
How would it go?
00:55:01
Speaker
And I sort of pick it apart, but I don't always share it.
00:55:04
Speaker
And so these guys are sort of giving me a gift, right?
00:55:08
Speaker
They're like, I'm going to tell you what I think about this, really.
00:55:12
Speaker
Yes, that's definitely the way.
00:55:15
Speaker
As a TI hero, and ISTPs are the other TI hero type.
00:55:21
Speaker
So that take is good.
00:55:24
Speaker
So then ENTPs.
00:55:28
Speaker
So ENTPs are probably not going to tell you, well, if they think, so they're FE child, so they are disagreeable and they will tell you what they think, but they're also going to weigh the social consequences of what their words will mean
00:55:46
Speaker
a little more heavily than, for instance, an ISTP.
00:55:51
Speaker
And so they're not going to want to hurt your feelings, but they're not going to lie to you either.
00:55:58
Speaker
And so there's a little more of a balance there.
00:56:02
Speaker
So what about the sort of the value that they're going to get from the group and maybe the value that they can contribute?
00:56:08
Speaker
So they're going to be like you in terms of getting excited about this cohesive movement.
00:56:15
Speaker
We're all moving forward.
00:56:17
Speaker
We're all moving forward.
00:56:18
Speaker
Like, oh, what do you want?
00:56:21
Speaker
How can I contribute to what you want?
00:56:22
Speaker
So any users, INTPs included, they want to be part of a team.
00:56:29
Speaker
They want to be the counselor.
00:56:30
Speaker
They want to be the option generator for other people's vision.
00:56:35
Speaker
So, oh, you want to own a house?
00:56:37
Speaker
Okay, okay.
00:56:38
Speaker
Here's some ideas on how to get a house.
00:56:40
Speaker
And, oh, okay, well, you could go with an apartment or you could go, maybe you build your own house, right?
00:56:47
Speaker
Those guys have been great for me to talk to from like what I'm doing perspective.
00:56:54
Speaker
Like they're sort of...
00:56:57
Speaker
doing for me what I'm, what I'm supposed to be doing for the group.
00:57:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:02
Speaker
They're, they're helping me refine, you know, courses I could take and directions that I could go.
00:57:09
Speaker
And so that, that makes a ton of sense.
00:57:12
Speaker
Yeah,
Absence of SJ Types and Traditions
00:57:14
Speaker
so your ENTPs are just the more ambitious and like about their ideas.
00:57:24
Speaker
So comparing to the INTP, the INTP will be like, hey, pump the brakes.
00:57:29
Speaker
Like, it's clear, Kevin, that you want this.
00:57:32
Speaker
And I don't know.
00:57:33
Speaker
Like, I don't think that's going to get you where you want.
00:57:36
Speaker
And the ETPs will be like, here, here's some ideas.
00:57:38
Speaker
Oh, you want that?
00:57:39
Speaker
Oh, here's.
00:57:40
Speaker
So it's more.
00:57:41
Speaker
Those guys, they tend to, from what I see, they tend to be sort of serial entrepreneurs.
00:57:46
Speaker
They have tons of ideas and they're executing a lot of them.
00:57:51
Speaker
I have a lot of these INTPs who have great ideas and I have to tell them that those ideas are really, really good.
00:57:57
Speaker
Like, yes, I have to I have to say, like, no, you need to do it.
00:58:01
Speaker
This is a great idea.
00:58:02
Speaker
Like, I promise.
00:58:04
Speaker
um yeah yeah that that makes a ton of sense and and that's me too i'm i'm in the category like like oh yeah oh yeah no no you and i have had have had tons of conversations about the value of this this this uh this young and typology thing and and um
00:58:22
Speaker
The fact that it's fat, cause you know, you're, you know, you're a strange bird.
00:58:26
Speaker
And like, I feel like a lot of these guys know that they're, that they're different.
00:58:30
Speaker
And so the fact that this is fascinating to me and really, and really powerful and useful to me, doesn't mean that it's useful to the tribe in a way that'll get me paid, you know?
00:58:42
Speaker
And, and I'm sitting here like, no, no, no, this is useful.
00:58:46
Speaker
You need to, you need to do it.
00:58:48
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:58:49
Speaker
So yeah.
00:58:51
Speaker
So that makes a ton of sense.
00:58:53
Speaker
The only thing that we're missing altogether in the group is SJs, the guardian types, which makes sense since the idea here is a little bit abstract and a little bit countercultural.
00:59:02
Speaker
And I have this theory that guardian types are in a little bit of a tight spot right now because they're temperamentally very concerned with rules and respecting institutions.
00:59:13
Speaker
But the project of our governing institutions has become kind of radical and revolutionary in itself.
00:59:20
Speaker
So a lot of them are like, well, they're horrified by Trump because he's so transgressive and he's breaking all the norms.
00:59:25
Speaker
But at the same time, they're like not really comfortable with like the pink hair types, you know, burning down cities and stuff.
00:59:31
Speaker
So do you think that there's a way to help them resolve that difficulty and sort of reach them or are they sort of just impossible for a group like this to connect with?
00:59:48
Speaker
Not impossible.
00:59:49
Speaker
but very, very difficult.
00:59:52
Speaker
And I know that because I also have no, I have very minimal SGA interaction in my group as well.
01:00:04
Speaker
So because, okay, so there are two things that are attractive to your group.
01:00:11
Speaker
And one is
01:00:13
Speaker
being comfortable outside the bounds of conformed society.
01:00:18
Speaker
And then two, enjoying abstraction and possibility, none of which is directly relatable to the SJ, right?
01:00:29
Speaker
With the exception of perhaps an ESTJ or an ESFJ who have extroverted intuition child.
01:00:35
Speaker
right?
01:00:35
Speaker
So they can be like, oh, okay, I could get into that.
01:00:39
Speaker
But the ISTJ, ISFJ are going to struggle.
01:00:42
Speaker
Probably the most out of all the types for your particular brand.
01:00:47
Speaker
And I guess the way that those types are integrated, and it's different for the SFJs versus the STJs.
01:00:56
Speaker
So the SFJs need to see
01:01:00
Speaker
that everyone, everyone in the group that they care about is into this.
01:01:06
Speaker
And then they'll be like, okay, Tribe says this is a thing that we like.
01:01:11
Speaker
So I'm going to get on board.
01:01:13
Speaker
I'm going to support this.
01:01:15
Speaker
And that's, that's,
01:01:17
Speaker
that's, that's sort of what the vibe that I get to is that you have to create a, another tribe for them to belong to.
01:01:25
Speaker
And it has to be a real tribe.
01:01:28
Speaker
Yes.
01:01:28
Speaker
Like, uh, it, it can't be, it can't be an ideological, like debating society or like a, uh,
01:01:38
Speaker
Sunday dinner, kids over, like that kind of tribe.
01:01:43
Speaker
Right.
01:01:43
Speaker
And I mean, it's it's what, 40 percent of the of the population is a guardian type, right?
01:01:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's the majority.
01:01:50
Speaker
Well, I mean, yeah, a plurality.
01:01:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:53
Speaker
So it's it's it's a huge swath of the population.
01:01:56
Speaker
Yeah.
01:01:57
Speaker
That.
Building Authentic Communities
01:01:59
Speaker
you know, could go one way or the other on a lot of these ideological questions because everybody's sort of transgressive now.
01:02:05
Speaker
Like there's not like an obvious home for them.
01:02:11
Speaker
And so many of our people, and I'm not talking about just exit, I'm talking about like the whole sort of counter-cultural dissident sphere.
01:02:22
Speaker
Everybody's talking about tribe.
01:02:24
Speaker
Everybody's talking about how do we make this thing real?
01:02:28
Speaker
And, you know, having the kids over, you know, I'm going to bring you eggs and you're going to give me a bag of sugar type of real.
01:02:37
Speaker
Yes.
01:02:38
Speaker
And, and I think there's an instinct there.
01:02:43
Speaker
I don't think that our people necessarily understand that that's what those guardian types need, but there's an instinct there that that's what our group is missing.
01:02:53
Speaker
Yeah.
01:02:54
Speaker
And it's also why they're not interested.
01:02:59
Speaker
And therefore, if you could develop that and build that, you know, if you build it, they will come.
01:03:06
Speaker
And so, you know, a big part of the reason that I'm doing this exit group is because I want enough of a group of people to be financially independent and
01:03:23
Speaker
whether that's just because they made a ton of money and they don't need to work anymore or because they got a remote job or, you know, they're an entrepreneur that can kind of, uh, be more mobile.
01:03:34
Speaker
Um, the purpose is to give all of these guys who are all over the country enough of an escape velocity that some of them can cluster and build something.
01:03:44
Speaker
Yeah.
01:03:45
Speaker
And so, um,
01:03:48
Speaker
So, and you know, I, you know, this is a hundred guys right now.
01:03:51
Speaker
It's a tiny piece of a really, really big puzzle, but I feel like if I can create like a proof of concept, then maybe, maybe you become something that those people could, could belong to.
01:04:09
Speaker
Yes.
01:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
01:04:12
Speaker
And then that's SFJs.
01:04:17
Speaker
And then STJs, their needs are different.
01:04:20
Speaker
It's basically what has been done in the past that works.
01:04:23
Speaker
So you need to turn them into reactionaries.
01:04:28
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:29
Speaker
You need to tell them that what worked in the past was the Stuart monarchy on the throne of England, and we need to bring them back.
01:04:36
Speaker
Yes.
01:04:37
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:38
Speaker
So, okay.
01:04:38
Speaker
But, but I mean, that's, that's like a super extension of what I'm talking about.
01:04:43
Speaker
You're right.
01:04:43
Speaker
I'm just making a joke, but that's, that's the principle, right?
01:04:47
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:47
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
01:04:49
Speaker
And, and so, yeah.
01:04:52
Speaker
So these types for good reason are naturally resistant to change because we're alive because of the things we've done in the past, right?
01:05:02
Speaker
Like 10,000 generations made the right decision.
01:05:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:06
Speaker
Yeah, and ignoring that is dangerous, right?
01:05:10
Speaker
This is like our, well, okay, and I'm only, I'm trying to get into the mind of like the ISTJ or the, so like, these are like the guys they get into the professions, especially ISTJs.
01:05:23
Speaker
They're like the lawyers, the dentists, the doctors, the one where there's this siloed knowledge that transcends like a long period of time.
01:05:34
Speaker
These are the judges, the
01:05:36
Speaker
the tax lawyers, the accountants, like people that love bookkeeping and that's more ISTJ and then ESTJs are like your construction like- Foreman.
01:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, foreman.
01:05:52
Speaker
And then actually I find a fair bit of ESTJs hop into politics, interestingly enough.
01:06:00
Speaker
So,
01:06:02
Speaker
And I think the reason for that is they're affiliative.
01:06:05
Speaker
So they're seeking for group cohesion, but for a different aim than tribe values.
01:06:10
Speaker
They want to work with the group to accomplish tasks.
01:06:18
Speaker
And they follow the recipe of rules and organization.
01:06:26
Speaker
So it's not so much about...
01:06:28
Speaker
It's not so much about what's right and wrong or what's good and bad or what's true and false.
01:06:34
Speaker
It's about what worked in the past and how do we get it done?
01:06:37
Speaker
How do we get things done?
01:06:38
Speaker
How do we execute?
01:06:39
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:40
Speaker
Well, it's by executing the way that I did that time that I executed.
01:06:44
Speaker
And let me teach you that way because that's the right way to do it.
01:06:48
Speaker
And that's very sensing.
01:06:49
Speaker
That's like I had this experience.
01:06:51
Speaker
This happened to me and I saw it and I trust that.
01:06:54
Speaker
Yes.
01:06:55
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:55
Speaker
So, so, so what I've found when I'm working with ISTJs is they really resist learning anything new, but once they learn it, it's in there forever.
01:07:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:06
Speaker
Like, and so, so these are like your historians.
01:07:09
Speaker
They're the totems of, of, of humanity.
01:07:13
Speaker
They're the ones that remember, oh, I remember,
01:07:17
Speaker
Like it was yesterday, 40 years ago when I saw that snake and that's the one you want to avoid.
01:07:23
Speaker
And then they tell all the ESTPs running out there engaging in the world, well, remember to be careful of this snake or like, and it's, and so, yeah.
01:07:35
Speaker
And so that's.
01:07:35
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:36
Speaker
And, you know, part of the challenge is that for people like you and me relating to that type is not always fun.
01:07:48
Speaker
based on our functions.
01:07:50
Speaker
And so sort of the more that, but at the same time, so what I think is happening in this sort of ideological realignment and sort of awakening of people, politically is the wrong word because it's cultural, it's bigger than politics, is that people like us who are sort of ideas people and like people
01:08:15
Speaker
abstract and and and countercultural and non-conformist we are having this realization that we need the structure and order of the tribe yeah and we can't create it by ourselves like a lot of guys are trying it and it's this larpy thing it's this really kind of cringe like um
01:08:40
Speaker
I don't know how else to articulate it.
01:08:41
Speaker
It's just kind of lame and everybody knows it.
01:08:43
Speaker
Everybody knows it's fake.
01:08:44
Speaker
Everybody knows it's not authentic.
01:08:51
Speaker
And so on the other hand, a lot of things start that way.
01:08:57
Speaker
Like the founding fathers were like LARPing as Romans and trying to build a classical Roman Republic.
01:09:08
Speaker
And to the extent that that was, it's reflected in the architecture, it's reflected in the structure of the government and everything else.
01:09:20
Speaker
And it became a real thing.
01:09:24
Speaker
But that integration, that process is really challenging.
01:09:28
Speaker
And I think on the other hand, the Guardian types, and you're seeing this with the
01:09:36
Speaker
you know, they call them boomer often.
01:09:40
Speaker
They're sort of very regular sort of elderly or not elderly, but like middle-aged people who are becoming like absurdly radical on Facebook.
01:09:52
Speaker
And like, like they're just, they're just talking about blowing stuff up and like killing cops.
01:09:57
Speaker
Like it's no big deal.
01:09:58
Speaker
Like they don't even understand that they're, that they're like in danger.
01:10:01
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:03
Speaker
And, you know, obviously this show doesn't condone any of that, but it's illuminating of an
Reconciling Traditional and Nonconformist Groups
01:10:16
Speaker
awakening among people who are not prone to awakenings, if that makes sense.
01:10:22
Speaker
It's people who are not abstract thinkers, but they're just watching what's happening.
01:10:29
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:29
Speaker
And they're just sort of
01:10:32
Speaker
disgusted by it.
01:10:33
Speaker
And it's happening with like, you know, Blue Lives Matter.
01:10:39
Speaker
They have the black and blue American flag flying.
01:10:45
Speaker
And it's very much like we're pro our institutions, we're pro order, we're pro this and that.
01:10:52
Speaker
But those people can only see so many videos of, you know, the cops standing back while someone gets beaten up.
01:11:01
Speaker
you know, who's on the side of the cops ostensibly.
01:11:05
Speaker
Or, you know, they can only see so many cops sort of enforcing these absurdly invasive mandates before they start to, there starts to be sort of cracks in their view.
01:11:19
Speaker
And that project is,
01:11:26
Speaker
of helping those two groups of people to get back into harmony is maybe the most important thing we've got going right now, like as a country.
01:11:39
Speaker
And part of it does mean that like, you know, we have to wake them up and they have to, you know, come to the table a little bit, but also like,
01:11:53
Speaker
we have to find a way to not like stick our finger in their eye so much and, and be sort of deliberately transgressive.
01:12:03
Speaker
And that's hard because it's fun.
01:12:06
Speaker
And it's been like a major source of our group cohesion for a long time.
01:12:10
Speaker
Like the reason, the reason Trump was so fun to everybody was because he was sort of just a big walking middle finger all the time.
01:12:19
Speaker
And, um,
01:12:21
Speaker
And the type of people who don't like that kind of thing didn't like him quite a lot.
01:12:25
Speaker
And yeah, I don't know how you reconcile that, but it does seem like the next step is to reconcile that.
01:12:36
Speaker
I think it's about recognizing the necessity and value that specific mentalities bring.
01:12:42
Speaker
Right?
01:12:43
Speaker
And understanding that like a fact, not just conceptually, this is needed, but really like you need the TI.
01:12:53
Speaker
Okay.
01:12:53
Speaker
Sorry to bring it back to this, but like if we put it into this framework, you need the TIs because they're the ones that are going to immediately tell you this isn't such a great idea.
01:13:04
Speaker
And then you need the FE's to be like, hey man, chill, like tribe values matter.
01:13:10
Speaker
And you're like, okay, yeah, that's true.
01:13:12
Speaker
And then, and then, and then it behooves each of us as individuals to develop the sides of ourselves that are weak, because just because we don't prefer a function doesn't mean it's non existent.
01:13:24
Speaker
There within each of us exists all of these things.
01:13:29
Speaker
And that in the end, the any users have to kind of figure out what they want.
01:13:34
Speaker
Right.
01:13:34
Speaker
And then,
01:13:35
Speaker
So yeah, you need everything.
01:13:38
Speaker
You need everyone, like ingredients.
01:13:43
Speaker
It's got to be, I got to think that part of the problem is that the internet has allowed us to create these subcultures that are just our temperamental fits.
01:13:56
Speaker
Yeah,
Complementary Personality Dynamics
01:13:58
Speaker
which is comforting.
01:13:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's super fun.
01:14:01
Speaker
It's way more fun than dealing with cop types.
01:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, but it's untenable.
01:14:09
Speaker
It doesn't yield long-term cohesiveness or unity or strength.
01:14:15
Speaker
You and I were talking about how each type has a complement type that sort of, it's that similar interaction you were talking about where you're both sort of consuming what the other is producing.
01:14:31
Speaker
And it's a very satisfying type of relationship.
01:14:38
Speaker
But it does create problems because your obsessions are the same and your attention and preoccupation is the same.
01:14:48
Speaker
It's just sort of inverted.
01:14:50
Speaker
And so there's whole worlds of cognition and threat detection that neither of you is doing.
01:15:00
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:01
Speaker
And so it's shared blindness.
01:15:03
Speaker
Right.
01:15:03
Speaker
And so it's, it's super fun and super satisfying and that can go on for a long time.
01:15:12
Speaker
But if the whole community is like that, it can really become deranged.
01:15:20
Speaker
And I think that's definitely what's happening.
01:15:23
Speaker
I think, I think a lot of the,
01:15:26
Speaker
I think a lot of the sortition that's happening ideologically, and I don't have a theory about like which types are sorting right now.
01:15:35
Speaker
But I have a, what a sortition mean?
01:15:40
Speaker
Yeah.
01:15:41
Speaker
People separating into groups, clustering.
01:15:43
Speaker
Oh, okay.
01:15:45
Speaker
And sort of like in India, when they had the partition of India, all the Muslims were made to leave and go to Pakistan.
01:15:52
Speaker
All the Hindus in Pakistan were made to leave and come to India.
01:15:56
Speaker
Wow.
01:15:56
Speaker
Sortition means mixed things becoming no longer mixed.
01:16:00
Speaker
Yeah.
01:16:03
Speaker
I think you're seeing that ideologically, and I don't know if it cuts directly across temperamental lines, but I have a hunch that it does, and I kind of want to think more about what types might be more likely to be found on which side.
01:16:19
Speaker
There's definitely the common accusation of the left versus the right.
01:16:26
Speaker
has always been that like, you know, the right says that the left are idiots and the stuff they propose won't work and, and they don't like care about the facts.
01:16:36
Speaker
And then the converse accusation is that you don't have any, you don't have any heart.
01:16:40
Speaker
You don't care about what's right.
01:16:42
Speaker
Um, which is a classic thinking, feeling dichotomy.
01:16:46
Speaker
Um, but I feel like it's deeper than that, especially as, um,
01:16:52
Speaker
the Democrats have sort of become de facto, like, quote unquote, the party of science and sort of at least rhetorically value.
01:17:03
Speaker
Well, but it's not, they don't really, they don't actually rhetorically value questions of fact.
01:17:08
Speaker
What they're valuing is tribal consensus.
01:17:11
Speaker
Yeah.
01:17:11
Speaker
What they're valuing is, this is what everybody says is,
01:17:15
Speaker
And, you know, there's that comic, that New Yorker comic strip that's like, hey, honey, look, I found something that all the top experts in the world missed.
01:17:24
Speaker
And those of us who are on this side of the tent are like, well, yeah, because the experts suck.
01:17:30
Speaker
And so it's not like to them, it's this deep own.
01:17:33
Speaker
And to us, it's like, well, yeah, no, that's that's actually what we think.
01:17:36
Speaker
Thank you.
01:17:40
Speaker
And so maybe it's a.
01:17:42
Speaker
Maybe it's like an SF type of thing versus an NT.
01:17:47
Speaker
It's hard to tease out.
01:17:50
Speaker
So what I find, again, is that the voices of the left tend to be intuitive feelers.
01:17:58
Speaker
And on occasion, they're STJs.
01:18:03
Speaker
But like Fauci, I'm pretty sure, is an ESTJ.
01:18:07
Speaker
And I haven't done a lot of analysis on that, so don't quote me.
01:18:11
Speaker
But like, yeah, so ENFJs and then, and those are the ones, yeah, so ENFJs and ESTJs tend to be the ones that are more staunch and loud.
01:18:23
Speaker
And then you have like the identitarians.
01:18:25
Speaker
So you have those that are supporting
01:18:27
Speaker
the identitarians like which would be like your INFP or like maybe your ISFP or um essentially the ones that are like I feel this and um pay attention to me yeah uh and and they're like okay so so yeah I I'm sure if we sat down we could probably find a rough um estimation of the general mentality of the sides uh and
01:18:57
Speaker
And yeah, I do think that tribalism has its place.
01:19:06
Speaker
And then, yeah, we're talking about problems that are beyond my capacity to zero in in a meaningful way.
01:19:15
Speaker
I mean, I can't take a stab at it, but yeah, that's big stuff.
01:19:21
Speaker
Yeah, when you say tribalism,
01:19:26
Speaker
there's one sense in which that means the American tribe and like our institutions.
01:19:34
Speaker
And from that, it's such a convoluted, like, because their sort of rhetoric defense is like, it's extremely dangerous to our democracy.
01:19:44
Speaker
They're breaking these norms.
01:19:46
Speaker
And it's about like, you're violating the values of the tribe, which is the American tribe.
01:19:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:19:53
Speaker
But at the same time, Nazi Germany, Nazi Germany was a tribe.
01:19:57
Speaker
Right.
01:19:57
Speaker
And if you if you violate the norms in Nazi Germany, now you are highly commended.
01:20:04
Speaker
You are an amazing, wonderful person, according to according to our tribal values, the new values.
01:20:10
Speaker
Yeah.
01:20:11
Speaker
And and it's.
01:20:13
Speaker
it's there's one sense in which they're sort of defending, you know, maybe the husk of, of the sort of Republican institutions, small r Republican.
01:20:24
Speaker
Um, but they're also gutting the, you know, American values when it comes to sort of the, the folk values of, of the average American about marriage and family and, and, and, you know, the proper way to live.
01:20:42
Speaker
Um,
01:20:43
Speaker
And so it's these structures or systems of government that they want to defend.
01:20:50
Speaker
The interpersonal individual values need to be deconstructed in the name of individual freedom.
01:21:00
Speaker
But on questions of fact and like the science, capital S Science,
01:21:07
Speaker
that's where they want everyone to be very conformist.
01:21:10
Speaker
And, you know, on some level, that's just might just be because those are the institutions that they're in control of.
01:21:15
Speaker
And so they want everybody to conform to those institutions.
01:21:17
Speaker
But I also think that there's like, cause the rank and file are not thinking about like, this is a conspiracy for us to assert power.
01:21:25
Speaker
Ordinary people don't think that way.
01:21:28
Speaker
So they have some other reason why that framework makes sense to them.
01:21:34
Speaker
So it's, yeah, I'm doing all this on the fly.
01:21:40
Speaker
I haven't actually thought any of this through.
Effectiveness of Personality Typing
01:21:42
Speaker
So it'll be fun to dig into it more.
01:21:47
Speaker
On the subject, though, of the way that these temperaments can be used.
01:21:53
Speaker
So one guy in the group, we talked about this and he was like, you know, it's interesting, but
01:21:58
Speaker
some HR lady basically used it to like cover her for her friends and criticize people she didn't like.
01:22:03
Speaker
And, and, and like, she was sort of like, well, it's in his temperament to make mistakes that cost $2 million.
01:22:09
Speaker
And so they were like, well, it's in my temperament to fire people who make mistakes that cost $2 million.
01:22:14
Speaker
And, and like it seems like that's maybe kind of inevitable given how sort of complex and interpretive this process is.
01:22:22
Speaker
It feels more like therapy than engineering where you're sort of having to, um,
01:22:29
Speaker
tease out subjective detail, but the professional piece of it's somewhat open interpretation.
01:22:36
Speaker
So is there a way around that?
01:22:38
Speaker
Or is it sort of like it's always going to be just as good a tool as the person who's using it?
01:22:46
Speaker
Yeah, and also, you know, a bad tool with a really skilled person is going to be able to make that tool work.
01:22:53
Speaker
And then a good tool with so again, there is the utility of the tool and then there's the capacity of the user of the tool.
01:23:00
Speaker
Sure.
01:23:00
Speaker
Right.
01:23:01
Speaker
And I would say that's true for this as well.
01:23:03
Speaker
Yeah, like, well, I mean, you know, the same not to bring it back to politics, but like kind of the same can be said about the institutions like.
01:23:12
Speaker
they can be really, really good institutions, but if there's bad people running them, like they'll find a way to screw them up.
01:23:17
Speaker
And yeah.
01:23:19
Speaker
Yeah, do you care about the people?
01:23:21
Speaker
Like, are you motivated by truth, love, and is your heart good?
01:23:29
Speaker
And then are you gifted at execution and accomplishing things?
01:23:35
Speaker
And then there's that amalgamation of all those traits within you.
01:23:39
Speaker
And if, yeah, and in the end, I think this is more of an ethical conversation is like, are you
01:23:47
Speaker
Do you love the people like and then and then as a result, that's going to flavor the application of said tool.
01:23:55
Speaker
That's going to flavor the way that you use you spend your intellectual resources.
01:24:00
Speaker
It's going to flavor how you spend your money and what you do with it.
01:24:04
Speaker
And so, yeah, both of those things kind of interrelate.
01:24:07
Speaker
People want this like, well, I don't know.
01:24:12
Speaker
I feel like a lot of people get frustrated with a tool like this because it isn't sort of this like autistic puzzle box that solves all the problems.
01:24:19
Speaker
Like, like, uh,
01:24:23
Speaker
And the same is true of government.
01:24:24
Speaker
It's like, you know, if we were to just engineer our system of government just perfectly, then we'd never have to worry about corruption or, you know, like you can just engineer the incentives appropriately so that nobody ever misbehaves.
01:24:36
Speaker
And ultimately someone is always in charge of those incentives and those structures and institutions.
01:24:42
Speaker
And it's a consensus decision
01:24:48
Speaker
among the people, at least the people who are in power to preserve those institutions in a sort of just and fair-minded way.
01:24:57
Speaker
And so you're never going to solve that as an engineering problem.
01:25:02
Speaker
It's always at least partly a moral problem.
01:25:05
Speaker
Right, and I think to your point, and this analogy, whenever I've thought about how I look at it, if you want to know the way I see it, it's that, and this is, you know, it's a pretty old adage, the elephant and the men, the blind monks or the blind beggars or whatever flavor of that story it is, each of them see a part of it
01:25:30
Speaker
And if they never communicate, so what it is, is there's four blind guys and they're feeling different parts of an elephant and they're saying, and then someone asks them, what's an elephant?
01:25:42
Speaker
And they say, oh, it's this long skinny thing with fiber at the end.
01:25:47
Speaker
And he's feeling the tail and it's like the side of a house and he's feeling like the torso.
01:25:52
Speaker
And then one feels the top.
01:25:54
Speaker
Anyways, the point is, they're all talking about the elephant.
01:25:57
Speaker
Right.
01:25:58
Speaker
Right.
01:25:59
Speaker
And the only way that we actually see the elephant, if all we're listening to is them, is by hearing all of them and believing all of them.
01:26:08
Speaker
Yeah.
01:26:09
Speaker
And I think that comes.
01:26:11
Speaker
Yeah.
01:26:12
Speaker
And that's that's hard in terms of cognitive preferences.
01:26:16
Speaker
There's going to be if we're returning it to the typing.
01:26:19
Speaker
We have cognitive preferences, and there's a certain blind man that we're more inclined to listen to.
01:26:25
Speaker
And so what the system applies is, hey, ignore that feeling inside you that only that blind man has something good to say.
01:26:36
Speaker
And to the extent that you're able, pay attention to what the ISTPs have to say and the ESFJs and the whatever the type is.
01:26:49
Speaker
And that informs your decision and that creates a more holistic view of how everything relates together.
01:26:56
Speaker
That makes sense.
01:26:59
Speaker
And I think where this thing becomes really magic for me personally is decoding individuals.
01:27:11
Speaker
and typing them individually.
01:27:14
Speaker
So we talked about like three and a half types at most, and there's six.
01:27:23
Speaker
And we could go on for hours and hours.
01:27:27
Speaker
And so you run a sort of weekly discussion about this.
01:27:35
Speaker
What kind of topics do you cover in those weekly discussions?
01:27:40
Speaker
So when I first started it, it was primarily academic, right?
01:27:44
Speaker
Because that's what INTP is like.
01:27:46
Speaker
They're like, oh, let me talk about what I think and let me teach it to you in this sort of professorial approach.
01:27:52
Speaker
And I found that's not that great for the majority of the types.
01:27:58
Speaker
Like a few types love it, like TE Hero.
01:28:02
Speaker
We'll just sit there and just take it in all day.
01:28:04
Speaker
So an ESTJ, an ENTJ.
01:28:06
Speaker
But that excludes a lot of people.
01:28:09
Speaker
And so I had to figure out, okay, well, what approach is most effective?
01:28:13
Speaker
So while all these deep, quote unquote, concepts are fodder for these conversations, most of the time what we're doing is we're applying the typing process.
01:28:24
Speaker
So I teach everybody how to type.
01:28:27
Speaker
I walk them through the dichotomies of informative versus direct and abstract versus concrete.
01:28:33
Speaker
And then I show them, okay, this is the way that's applied to reality.
01:28:39
Speaker
This is how you apply it to actual people.
01:28:42
Speaker
And this is how that looks.
Using Typology in Personal and Professional Life
01:28:45
Speaker
And then we'll type people that they engage with on a daily basis so they can map reality to these abstract concepts.
01:28:54
Speaker
And then they can say to themselves, OK, my girlfriend's this type.
01:28:57
Speaker
My wife is this type.
01:28:59
Speaker
My boss.
01:29:01
Speaker
Yeah, your boss.
01:29:03
Speaker
This person that you hate and you butt heads with all the time, and it's a huge problem in your life.
01:29:10
Speaker
uh this person that you like and man you you would really like to date or um this this difficult uncle or insert whatever it is yeah and now how do you please them how do you um how do you get what how do you give them what they need how do you get what you need from them etc yeah
01:29:31
Speaker
Yeah, and this methodically approaches those problems.
01:29:37
Speaker
And in the group, we engage in these discussions.
01:29:43
Speaker
And I think it takes a little bit of time to understand the vocabulary enough.
01:29:50
Speaker
And also, you know, you deal with insecurities.
01:29:52
Speaker
Am I going to come off as stupid?
01:29:56
Speaker
Are people going to think less of me if I share this part of my life?
01:30:00
Speaker
Oh, not to interrupt you, but I also want to ask you, you've mentioned in the past that like particular types tend to either not be particularly good at typing themselves.
01:30:16
Speaker
Yeah.
01:30:17
Speaker
And maybe tell me about why that is.
01:30:20
Speaker
So I think a few things lend themselves to typing.
01:30:24
Speaker
And it tends to be extroverted sensors are good at typing physically.
01:30:32
Speaker
I find that the, and this makes sense because if you remember, some of the people you've brought up have enjoyed the more broad categorization of people.
01:30:41
Speaker
So just typing them as a guardian or something like that.
01:30:46
Speaker
So but I have found just in reality by working with people that the NE hero types are quite good at typing.
01:30:54
Speaker
And the SE hero types are very good at typing.
01:30:59
Speaker
And just typing, just looking at a person and being like, this person's this.
01:31:06
Speaker
Because maybe an SE type is examining their affect
01:31:12
Speaker
and how they look and how they sound and how they talk and how they carry themselves.
01:31:15
Speaker
Yeah.
01:31:16
Speaker
And an NE type is like, I've got your number.
01:31:20
Speaker
I know what you want.
01:31:22
Speaker
I know what drives you.
01:31:24
Speaker
Yes.
01:31:25
Speaker
Okay.
01:31:26
Speaker
And I found that when you pair SE and TI and NE and TI, you get
01:31:33
Speaker
really good at typing.
01:31:34
Speaker
Because then, not only can you recognize that gut impulse of it, which the NE users and the SE users will pick up on, you also can back it up with reasons and internal logic.
01:31:49
Speaker
So and I've noticed this.
01:31:54
Speaker
I do have a pretty decent sense of like, it's pretty easy for me to get to the bottom of what people want and what their course is or should be.
01:32:06
Speaker
But the TI piece of it, which is one of my much weaker functions,
01:32:12
Speaker
of actually like nailing them down to a type, that's something that I have to do very deliberately.
01:32:18
Speaker
And like, I have to, I have to really think through and that'd probably get easier as I do more of it.
01:32:23
Speaker
But like, you know, you can talk to somebody for at most 30 minutes and you know,
01:32:32
Speaker
I won't say it's okay, yes.
01:32:35
Speaker
But like every now and then there'll be a person that like doesn't quite fit.
01:32:42
Speaker
And so let me explain that for a little bit.
01:32:47
Speaker
So NE pairs with SI.
01:32:50
Speaker
What is SI?
01:32:51
Speaker
It's memory of the past.
01:32:52
Speaker
So extroverted intuition is reading the person.
01:32:57
Speaker
What are their motives?
01:32:57
Speaker
What are they doing?
01:32:58
Speaker
And then SI is saying,
01:33:00
Speaker
what have I experienced in the past and how does that relate to this momentary experience?
01:33:06
Speaker
And so essentially each informs the other.
01:33:10
Speaker
So the more I do, the more informed my judgments and guesses become and the more nuanced they can be.
01:33:17
Speaker
So
01:33:18
Speaker
You can be like, well, I like, like, for instance, flavorings of types.
01:33:22
Speaker
So even within the typing, after doing it for years, you realize, oh, okay, this is an ENTJ that really has ironed out their introverted functions.
01:33:33
Speaker
Right?
01:33:34
Speaker
As opposed to an ENTJ that's only worked on TE and SE, right?
01:33:40
Speaker
And hasn't really figured out their personal ambitions, hasn't really developed an internal sense of morals.
01:33:47
Speaker
And they'll come off differently.
01:33:52
Speaker
So you're telling the difference between someone who is maybe genuinely off type versus someone who has just sort of balanced themselves.
01:34:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:34:08
Speaker
And so as a result, when people have gone through tremendously stressful and painful transformation, that usually moves them in a place in which the solution to their problem
01:34:24
Speaker
is found in one of their lower functions or one of their shadow functions.
01:34:30
Speaker
So they've had to essentially like break themselves apart to find these weaker elements of themselves and allow them to surface to solve whatever challenge or issue lies in front of them.
01:34:45
Speaker
So people who have gone through
01:34:48
Speaker
um like honestly really trying hard things uh will often have pieces of them emerge that you don't usually see in that type I don't know if that does that make sense no it totally does I mean I'm thinking about I'm thinking about um the times when I have been the most sort of concrete and and um
01:35:18
Speaker
organized and disciplined and focused.
01:35:22
Speaker
Uh, they virtually all of them been after intense struggle.
01:35:29
Speaker
And, um, even this thing now, like, uh, the fact that I've only missed like a handful of calls and like, I'm, I'm getting pretty good at keeping my calendar up and knowing what I need to accomplish and knowing what needs to happen.
01:35:46
Speaker
Um, um,
01:35:47
Speaker
you know, an outside observer would not say that I'm particularly organized or disciplined, but it's leaps and bounds beyond from where you were, from where I was even, you know, three months ago.
01:35:59
Speaker
Um, and that's been, and I'm finding it, I'm finding it easy because it's, it's so much what I want to do.
01:36:11
Speaker
It's, it's, uh, the, the, um,
01:36:15
Speaker
Well, even my encounter with learning math, I couldn't get my head around math at all until I was in college.
01:36:24
Speaker
And I realized that there were questions that I really wanted to answer that I couldn't solve without math.
01:36:30
Speaker
And so it became an instrumental exercise.
01:36:36
Speaker
I want something bad enough that I'll go get it.
01:36:40
Speaker
And I'll develop the skill set to get it.
01:36:43
Speaker
Learning how to automate things, learning how to do programming.
01:36:48
Speaker
I sort of was interested in that vaguely and I really struggled to learn it until I was in this terrible job where so much of what I had to do was soul sucking manual computer work.
01:37:01
Speaker
And I was like, I have to develop this skill set.
01:37:03
Speaker
And I got pretty good at it.
01:37:05
Speaker
And then I was sort of the go-to guy for those types of tasks in the future.
01:37:10
Speaker
And I enjoyed it because of the meaning behind it.
01:37:14
Speaker
Yeah.
01:37:15
Speaker
Not so much sort of the tactile exercise of it.
01:37:20
Speaker
And
Shadow Functions and Personal Growth
01:37:20
Speaker
so I think part of what happens is, yes, you explore these functions that are alien to you and you make them part of yourself, but I think you also contextualize them in terms of your strengths.
01:37:37
Speaker
And that's how you find the will because you're like, I'm still this person.
01:37:47
Speaker
I still need to be this person.
01:37:50
Speaker
In my case, I still need to be abstract and concerned with questions of meaning and kind of disorganized and undisciplined and head in the clouds.
01:38:00
Speaker
And I'm in this situation where I can't be that person.
01:38:04
Speaker
And so I'm going to go into that dark place, go into that hard place and find the tools that I need to get back to being that person, if that makes sense.
01:38:17
Speaker
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
01:38:18
Speaker
I understand we're speaking super abstractly, but I'm following you really well.
01:38:24
Speaker
And I guess, like, and again, if returning to this, like all of that,
01:38:32
Speaker
like change, like in that moment, you're not regular self.
01:38:38
Speaker
You're this other thing.
01:38:40
Speaker
And it's transforming your life in this really meaningful way.
01:38:44
Speaker
And I think we can at least introduce, I'm sorry, I keep cutting you off.
01:38:49
Speaker
Finish your thought.
01:38:51
Speaker
Uh, I, well, I'm, did you, okay.
01:38:53
Speaker
You want to introduce the concept of the shadow?
01:38:56
Speaker
Is that what you were?
01:38:56
Speaker
That's exactly where I was going.
01:38:58
Speaker
So, so it's, um, because we have the four sort of types that you live with every day, even like there's ones that you suck at, but you live with them.
01:39:07
Speaker
And then you've got your shadow types, which are the inverse or the reverse of your four main types.
01:39:14
Speaker
So in, in my case, um,
01:39:18
Speaker
my first function is extroverted intuition.
01:39:21
Speaker
Therefore, my fifth function is introverted intuition and so on down the line.
01:39:28
Speaker
And those are the nemesis, the critic, the trickster and the demon.
01:39:35
Speaker
And they have these sort of dark names because they are sort of what comes out in struggle.
01:39:46
Speaker
And they're sort of deep, they're subconscious or unconscious, they're hard to access.
01:39:52
Speaker
Yes.
01:39:52
Speaker
So tell me a little bit about Nemesis and how that relates to the hero function.
01:40:00
Speaker
Yeah, so...
01:40:04
Speaker
So having taught this a few times, I sort of want, again, because we're speaking of things that are beneath the surface, there's a lack of concreteness.
01:40:17
Speaker
So the same level of confidence that I discuss the hero function, the parent function, it's harder for me to see very clearly the concrete manifestations of the shadow functions.
01:40:35
Speaker
And they occur less
Nemesis Function and Personal Balance
01:40:36
Speaker
often.
01:40:36
Speaker
Like for instance, for you, how often are you under a period of extreme duress in which you are hyper-focused and you know what you want and you're getting things done super quickly.
01:40:47
Speaker
And so that's the data pool
01:40:50
Speaker
that you're using to inform your understanding of the shadow functions so as a result you have less i would say yes um that said uh the nemesis function is like it's generally more and for you it's what do i want so it's not inaccessible for you um and and and so the yeah so this is true of every type your nemesis function
01:41:17
Speaker
you're pretty confident with it, but not the way you're confident with the hero function.
01:41:24
Speaker
And so in the
ENFP Imbalance and Overconfidence
01:41:25
Speaker
same way that a hero needs a nemesis in order to truly be a hero, you need the other side of the coin
01:41:35
Speaker
um like you notice the dark because the light contrasts with it yeah um if you have this side of yourself completely lacking there is an imbalance in who you are like your your hero hasn't met his match he hasn't engaged in real battle so an enfp who was sort of imbalanced in that sense may just be uh
01:42:04
Speaker
Well, because introverted intuition isn't necessarily what I want.
01:42:09
Speaker
That's more introverted feeling.
01:42:11
Speaker
Introverted intuition is more what should I do.
01:42:14
Speaker
What is my path forward?
01:42:16
Speaker
How will I navigate my life?
01:42:19
Speaker
Right.
01:42:20
Speaker
And
Social Interactions and Twitter
01:42:21
Speaker
so a person in that situation might be very dissolute or disorganized, aimless.
01:42:30
Speaker
Yes.
01:42:31
Speaker
And yeah, I've definitely found that my purpose is not
01:42:41
Speaker
surface level obvious to me in the moment.
01:42:44
Speaker
It's something that I encounter through sort of like a ping pong ball being beaten against the sides of where I don't need to go.
01:42:54
Speaker
And so, yeah, absolutely.
01:43:00
Speaker
And I think one of the reasons that ENFPs who are imbalanced can be so obnoxious
01:43:07
Speaker
is because they can be very confident about what everybody else ought to do.
01:43:14
Speaker
And not having their crap together.
01:43:17
Speaker
And how to do it.
01:43:19
Speaker
Right.
01:43:20
Speaker
Right.
01:43:20
Speaker
A.T.E.
01:43:20
Speaker
child, right?
01:43:24
Speaker
So in your case, that would be extroverted thinking, which is maybe...
01:43:33
Speaker
I think this is really cool and I'm pretty sure that I'm factually correct about it.
01:43:39
Speaker
But, you know, I've been burned enough that I need to look outside and see what other people think.
01:43:47
Speaker
I need to take stock.
01:43:49
Speaker
That's precisely my experience of it.
01:43:52
Speaker
Right.
01:43:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:43:53
Speaker
Um, so, so that's, that's, uh, nemesis is a place of like profound growth, um, and, and sort of maturity and wisdom and hard experience.
01:44:05
Speaker
The, the next one is the critic function, which, um, mine is F E, uh, so, uh, extroverted feeling, which is the, the, the values of the group.
01:44:18
Speaker
And so would that mean that I am, uh,
01:44:24
Speaker
attacking the group for not living up to their values or I'm attacking myself for not living up to their values, what does it mean that it's Fe critic?
01:44:32
Speaker
Yeah.
01:44:33
Speaker
Okay.
01:44:34
Speaker
How do I answer this?
01:44:35
Speaker
So Fe critic.
01:44:39
Speaker
So, so to be clear for everyone listening, this is a very weak function that you are aware of.
01:44:49
Speaker
And, and you're critical of it.
01:44:51
Speaker
So, so it sort of comes off for,
01:44:54
Speaker
Effie critic, like it's your job to protect everybody from all of the bad people.
01:45:02
Speaker
Like you're responsible, like every now and then you feel responsible for making everybody feel good.
01:45:07
Speaker
But like, it comes off as very like,
01:45:12
Speaker
anim like animated and intense so very much like uh the the protester yeah uh like very much like oh you guys are bad like and they happen to know a huge pain in the ass the nfp and that's very that fits very well
01:45:29
Speaker
Yeah, so I can't say, yeah, yeah, so it's a very pessimistic, like, I am sure, yeah, I don't know.
01:45:41
Speaker
Which is what I just did, right?
01:45:43
Speaker
Like, I was playing the critic, I was...
01:45:46
Speaker
sort of, yeah.
01:45:47
Speaker
Yeah.
01:45:48
Speaker
And again, again, as you're asking me these questions, I want to just reiterate, I'm less confident in the explanations, like, owing to the thing that I said earlier.
01:45:59
Speaker
Although, again, I've seen, like, I've, you know, I've looked at this a lot.
01:46:04
Speaker
Yeah.
01:46:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:46:06
Speaker
The, um,
01:46:08
Speaker
Again, thinking about my sort of presence on Twitter, it's almost a sort of the optimistic side of it is my child.
01:46:19
Speaker
It's the extroverted thinking.
01:46:21
Speaker
It's the, we're just going to explore cool ideas and, you know, get deep into...
01:46:26
Speaker
abstruse, weird, you know, stuff people are saying stuff, ideas people have, and isn't this cool, I'm just going to show it to everybody.
01:46:34
Speaker
And then the sort of distaff of that, the negative side is my Effie critic, which is the world is burning down and the people doing it have names and addresses.
01:46:45
Speaker
And, and, and,
01:46:49
Speaker
And so I think those are very tightly related, at least for me, or at least they're a huge part of my like sort of social presence.
01:47:02
Speaker
And maybe it's because Twitter, at least until recently, was sort of my safe place where I could kind of live purely in the realm of ideas.
01:47:16
Speaker
Because
INTP Choices and Fulfillment
01:47:17
Speaker
nobody knew who I was.
01:47:20
Speaker
I couldn't be held accountable for anything I was saying.
01:47:23
Speaker
And so it was this very sort of playful, exploratory space.
01:47:35
Speaker
So anyway, that's...
01:47:39
Speaker
critic, right?
01:47:41
Speaker
And I didn't, I'm not sure I got a clear answer.
01:47:45
Speaker
Maybe there isn't a clear answer as to whether it's sort of internally critical of the self or externally critical.
01:47:51
Speaker
Maybe that depends on if it's an I or an E. Yeah, that's, yeah, that.
01:47:55
Speaker
Okay, got it.
01:47:56
Speaker
So because I'm FE, I'm like, you guys all suck.
01:48:01
Speaker
Whereas you, yours is
01:48:05
Speaker
And I introverted intuition, which is, I don't know what to do.
01:48:12
Speaker
I don't know what I'm doing with my life.
01:48:13
Speaker
I don't know what path to take.
01:48:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's awful.
01:48:19
Speaker
I don't enjoy it.
01:48:22
Speaker
So what happens is we use INTPs,
Predator Mindset in Stressful Situations
01:48:27
Speaker
use NE and FE to make life choices, essentially.
01:48:33
Speaker
Hey, what do you want?
01:48:35
Speaker
Oh, you want me to do this?
01:48:37
Speaker
Okay.
01:48:38
Speaker
And then they're like, well, I'm pretty good.
01:48:39
Speaker
Or like, everybody wants to be a doctor.
01:48:42
Speaker
yeah, like, okay, so I'm smart.
01:48:45
Speaker
I can go to school.
01:48:46
Speaker
Okay.
01:48:46
Speaker
Yeah.
01:48:46
Speaker
I'll be a doctor.
01:48:47
Speaker
Right.
01:48:48
Speaker
And so it's not your ambition that pushed you there.
01:48:52
Speaker
It was that it made sense TI.
01:48:55
Speaker
And, and someone else wanted it.
01:48:59
Speaker
Right.
01:49:00
Speaker
Like, yeah.
01:49:00
Speaker
And, or, or someone else is like, Hey, this is, this is what the tribe values.
01:49:04
Speaker
So you're listening to TE people being like, Hey, here's some things that people think.
01:49:08
Speaker
And,
01:49:09
Speaker
you know, this could be a good thing for you, FI for your FE.
01:49:14
Speaker
And then at the end of the day, you're like halfway in it and you're like, I don't want to do this, but I have no idea what I want to do because it was never a consideration for me.
01:49:25
Speaker
Very common with these guys in the group that are in that situation.
01:49:28
Speaker
And that's not to say that they're aimless or not successful.
01:49:32
Speaker
They're very successful in terms of what they actually pursued.
01:49:38
Speaker
Which was, they got a high status, high paying job.
01:49:42
Speaker
They're very comfortable.
01:49:45
Speaker
They just didn't catch what I want, in quotes, what they want.
01:49:52
Speaker
Right.
01:49:53
Speaker
And there's no way around that, just for reference.
01:49:59
Speaker
Besides brutal transformative suffering.
01:50:03
Speaker
Yeah.
01:50:04
Speaker
Yes.
01:50:05
Speaker
Yeah.
01:50:05
Speaker
I'm so sorry.
01:50:06
Speaker
Yeah.
01:50:08
Speaker
It's the only thing, unfortunately.
01:50:14
Speaker
And using your other functions.
01:50:18
Speaker
Right.
01:50:18
Speaker
Like looking like like like working on that F.E.
01:50:23
Speaker
and working on that S.I.
01:50:25
Speaker
And and then and then if you do F.E., that pulls you into your subconscious and then like, yeah, different elements of your psyche will pull you into the space that is capable of solving those problems.
01:50:37
Speaker
Yeah.
01:50:38
Speaker
But you have to walk into it deliberately.
01:50:42
Speaker
Um, and, and that's where the, the growth can come.
01:50:46
Speaker
Yeah.
01:50:47
Speaker
Yeah.
01:50:48
Speaker
There's so much to be said for, uh, I tell my wife, my wife is very anxious as a person.
01:50:55
Speaker
And we talk a lot about predator versus prey mindset and how, um, so Jocko Willink has that book, um, extreme ownership.
01:51:02
Speaker
And one of the things he talks about is, um, they, they were able to transform the way they did patrols in Ramadi, um,
01:51:10
Speaker
Because originally the patrol was, we're going to walk through the city and just wait to get shot at.
01:51:18
Speaker
And that's an immensely demoralizing state of mind.
01:51:24
Speaker
Because you are the prey.
01:51:28
Speaker
You are afraid.
01:51:29
Speaker
You can't do anything.
01:51:31
Speaker
You are waiting to be acted upon.
01:51:34
Speaker
And the way they changed their patrols was they made it an active search.
01:51:38
Speaker
Like we are going to go patrol and, but it's a hunter killer type.
01:51:42
Speaker
We're going to go, we're going to go get the bad guys on this patrol.
01:51:47
Speaker
We're going to find where they are.
01:51:49
Speaker
And that sort of hunter mindset, predator mindset totally changes the emotional valence of the experience, even if the risk is the same.
01:52:01
Speaker
And so, yeah, the more that you can embrace the suffering and the transformative character of that, the better off you'll be.
01:52:11
Speaker
And I definitely, with this doxing experience, it's happened to several of us.
01:52:19
Speaker
It's not just me.
01:52:22
Speaker
Guys that I know well and like quite a bit.
01:52:26
Speaker
And the ones who,
01:52:32
Speaker
accepted it the most quickly and its consequences were the ones who seemed to be having the strongest and the most interesting transformation.
01:52:49
Speaker
So yeah, I definitely think that's the case.
01:52:52
Speaker
So that's Critic.
01:52:54
Speaker
And then you've got the trickster.
01:52:57
Speaker
And the trickster is a, it's playful like the child type, but it's maybe a little more malevolent, a little more disruptive.
01:53:10
Speaker
And maybe it's a blind spot for the person wielding it.
01:53:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:53:16
Speaker
And real quick, just in my experience of teaching this stuff, most people can really only handle like an hour at a time.
01:53:25
Speaker
And we've gone a while.
01:53:27
Speaker
No, you know what, though, man, they can just turn it off.
01:53:31
Speaker
Yeah, okay.
01:53:34
Speaker
Okay, get out of here.
01:53:35
Speaker
We don't we don't want you in the tent.
01:53:36
Speaker
If you don't think it's cool, get out of here.
01:53:39
Speaker
All right.
01:53:40
Speaker
All right.
01:53:40
Speaker
Yeah.
01:53:40
Speaker
Trickster.
01:53:41
Speaker
Let's talk about trickster.
01:53:42
Speaker
Soldier on.
01:53:44
Speaker
OK.
01:53:45
Speaker
Yeah.
01:53:45
Speaker
So the trickster function, and it's actually sort of how you described it.
01:53:53
Speaker
But this one's clear.
01:53:55
Speaker
The problem is you think that you have it, and it's like you don't have it.
01:54:03
Speaker
So it's really dangerous.
01:54:05
Speaker
And I'm not saying this is always true because you can always go in and work on it and develop it and get better at it.
01:54:18
Speaker
But like the best natural assumption to make is that you have
01:54:25
Speaker
like the least level of conception of the critic function of the trickster function of all of the functions so so this is like this is where you're gonna really mess with the fabric of uh existence like this is where you're gonna fall on your face this is where you're going to um because it's not so much you being a trickster it's this thing is a trickster to you it's playing tricks on you
01:54:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
01:54:55
Speaker
And this is real.
01:54:56
Speaker
This is real.
01:54:57
Speaker
Like, like, it's, it's not just some name, like, like an INTP will think to themselves.
01:55:03
Speaker
Yeah, anyone could have a good experience.
01:55:05
Speaker
Any experience could be good, which most types would be like, definitely not true.
01:55:11
Speaker
Like, and the ITP is like, yeah, yeah, you guys could have a good time.
01:55:15
Speaker
And it's like, no.
01:55:19
Speaker
And, and like, this could work out well for me in a physical way.
01:55:22
Speaker
Like,
01:55:23
Speaker
Like this could play out the way and the answer is no.
01:55:27
Speaker
And so what is an SE trickster?
01:55:30
Speaker
What do they have to do?
01:55:32
Speaker
They have to learn as much as they can from the artisans.
01:55:35
Speaker
Like they have to watch the artisans and then just copy what they do.
01:55:42
Speaker
And then maybe after a long time, their SI will have captured enough SE to actually
01:55:50
Speaker
give people a good experience so this is maybe the this is maybe the the the what's that lady's name there was some lady who in like the 1910s or something who thought she was a good singer and she was releasing all these records and it became a joke and like she didn't have a conception of the fact that people she was popular because people were making fun of her um
01:56:15
Speaker
So like that's kind of se falling on your face.
01:56:17
Speaker
Like I'm going
Trickster Function and Focus
01:56:18
Speaker
to perform.
01:56:19
Speaker
I'm going to think it's good and it's not going to be good.
01:56:22
Speaker
Yeah.
01:56:24
Speaker
Yeah.
01:56:25
Speaker
And hopefully, hopefully you have people in your circle that are going to TI and they're going to burn you with some, some truth.
01:56:33
Speaker
Right.
01:56:33
Speaker
And that's what you'd need in that kind of a situation.
01:56:35
Speaker
Like,
01:56:40
Speaker
Yeah, but yes, that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
01:56:44
Speaker
Like, I'm going to make this food and man, you guys are going to like it.
01:56:49
Speaker
And nobody likes it.
01:56:51
Speaker
Like, you did a really bad job.
01:56:55
Speaker
And you don't know because you are so insensitive to anybody's experience but your own.
01:57:01
Speaker
Okay.
01:57:02
Speaker
And so that's SI.
01:57:03
Speaker
Yeah.
01:57:04
Speaker
For me, that's introverted thinking.
01:57:07
Speaker
And we had this really interesting conversation a couple days ago where you described the process of introverted thinking.
01:57:15
Speaker
And I literally was like, I don't think that exists.
01:57:17
Speaker
I don't think anybody does that.
01:57:20
Speaker
Yeah.
01:57:21
Speaker
It was basically...
01:57:24
Speaker
Everything about my, well, everything that I consider interesting about my cognition is that I took something that somebody else was doing and I synthesized it, or I put two things together, or I made it, I amplified it, or I, I, I,
01:57:47
Speaker
There's not like this wellspring of spontaneous generation inside my mind that is coming up with these ideas.
01:57:58
Speaker
It's virtually always, I saw something, I thought it was cool, and here's my twist on it.
01:58:08
Speaker
And so the sense in which maybe that gets me into trouble is...
01:58:16
Speaker
Well, it's exactly the same way that your sort of TE child can get you into trouble, which is I thought that I had done the due diligence about this as a factual question.
01:58:31
Speaker
I thought that I had done the math right, personally, and I hadn't.
01:58:38
Speaker
I had just sort of accepted what was said.
01:58:40
Speaker
And I...
01:58:41
Speaker
This is true on, I keep going back to Twitter because it's such a big part of my sort of social life, but it happens all the time.
01:58:48
Speaker
Like people will post fake news and I get owned all the time because I'm like, oh my gosh, this is horrible.
01:58:56
Speaker
You know, who would do this?
01:58:57
Speaker
And then I realized that nobody would do it.
01:58:59
Speaker
It was made up.
01:59:00
Speaker
And I'm getting better at checking first.
01:59:09
Speaker
But it still happens all the time.
01:59:11
Speaker
So, so yeah, that's, that's maybe kind of a minor modest example.
01:59:17
Speaker
Of course, on Twitter, you still get rewarded.
01:59:18
Speaker
Like, like if you, if you post some outrageous thing, um,
01:59:25
Speaker
nobody else is looking at it either.
01:59:26
Speaker
And they go, wow, retweet.
01:59:28
Speaker
And you get a bunch of followers.
01:59:30
Speaker
And yeah,
Motivating Self-Care in ESFJs
01:59:31
Speaker
that's so insane.
01:59:34
Speaker
I'm sure that, and that's got to drive you as a TI guy bonkers.
01:59:40
Speaker
Yeah, I don't like it.
01:59:41
Speaker
I don't like it at all.
01:59:45
Speaker
And yeah, so what's the answer?
01:59:48
Speaker
The answer is either...
01:59:51
Speaker
And I honestly don't think it's super realistic to develop that function.
01:59:56
Speaker
Like you need to learn it from somebody else.
02:00:02
Speaker
Maybe surround yourself with, in my case, surround yourself with people that you trust.
02:00:07
Speaker
Yeah, okay.
02:00:08
Speaker
Also that, but specifically in this case, TI users that you trust.
02:00:12
Speaker
Yes.
02:00:13
Speaker
Yes.
02:00:14
Speaker
To check you.
02:00:19
Speaker
And I mean, in your case, strong SI users will be able to keep you in check.
02:00:34
Speaker
But whether they choose to do that or not is sort of an open question.
02:00:39
Speaker
Like, they'll know that what you did sucked.
02:00:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
02:00:46
Speaker
Right.
02:00:47
Speaker
So if I want to tell you the one that.
02:00:49
Speaker
Yeah.
02:00:49
Speaker
Well, you know, who's going to tell you the ESTP is most likely going to tell you.
02:00:53
Speaker
Right.
02:00:54
Speaker
ESTP is like what you did is wrong.
02:00:58
Speaker
And it was bad and, and it was bad because other people didn't like it.
02:01:03
Speaker
Cause I was looking around and everyone frowned when you, when they ate that, you gave me a bad experience and I'm going to burn you with my TI, right?
02:01:12
Speaker
Cause I'm TI parent and I'm going to let you have it.
02:01:15
Speaker
And you're not going to forget this and screw it up again.
02:01:18
Speaker
Right?
02:01:18
Speaker
Like, yeah.
02:01:20
Speaker
ESTPs are necessary for, for the SI child's like, you need them around.
02:01:26
Speaker
um for that specific reason to to bully you and not being cringe anymore yeah right yeah yeah because what's the bad estp it's the schoolyard bully what's the good estp it's it's the one that like sticks up for you fights for you and like man get it get it together but all yeah like he's sort of your big brother he's like yeah i'm gonna show you how to how to fit in and then yeah cool and then we'll all get along
02:01:54
Speaker
Yes.
02:01:57
Speaker
So we said that my wife is an ESFJ, right?
02:02:02
Speaker
Yeah.
02:02:03
Speaker
So one of the things that I've noticed between her and you is that when you will be maybe abrupt or you'll say something that's like offensive or
02:02:27
Speaker
she will notice it very strongly and I will kind of notice it.
02:02:31
Speaker
I'll be like, yeah, like that was probably like, you know, a weird thing to say in this context, but like, I don't care.
02:02:39
Speaker
It's fun.
02:02:39
Speaker
And, and, and she'll be like, yeah, but, but it was like, it was like, it was like wrong.
02:02:47
Speaker
And, and she, she has had this experience where she, she had to get to know you quite a bit.
02:02:52
Speaker
Um, and, and eventually she was like, oh, he's a good dude.
02:02:56
Speaker
That's just a blind spot for him.
02:02:57
Speaker
That's fine.
02:02:59
Speaker
Um, but like, it was, it was intensely, uh, it was top of mind for her.
02:03:06
Speaker
And for me, it was like, ah, whatever, that's what it is, you know?
02:03:09
Speaker
And so that's, that I think is a major, um, piece of it is like, is like, uh, not just do you notice it, but will you say that you noticed it?
02:03:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
02:03:22
Speaker
So in the case of, and I think that comes for the TI users, that comes in what order is TI versus FE, right?
02:03:33
Speaker
So TI means you're going to notice whether it's factually correct or not.
02:03:37
Speaker
And then the sensitivity to that.
02:03:40
Speaker
increases as it goes up your stack.
02:03:43
Speaker
And then what are the social implications of saying that thing?
02:03:50
Speaker
Right.
02:03:51
Speaker
So she's hero F-E, inferior T-I.
02:03:55
Speaker
So she's like, yeah, maybe it was true, but it was mean.
02:04:00
Speaker
Right.
02:04:01
Speaker
Yeah.
02:04:01
Speaker
And that, oh man, you don't say mean things like, unless you hate that guy.
02:04:07
Speaker
Right.
02:04:09
Speaker
Right.
02:04:09
Speaker
And that, and so that, and that was exactly how she interpreted it was not like, was not like Scott's socially inept.
02:04:18
Speaker
Her immediate words to me were, I think Scott hates me.
02:04:23
Speaker
And I was like, no, and immediately I was like, no, Scott does not hate you.
02:04:29
Speaker
Um, like, or, or he thinks I'm stupid or he like has contempt for me.
02:04:33
Speaker
And I was like, not at all, not at all.
02:04:36
Speaker
Uh, that's just a blind spot.
02:04:38
Speaker
And, and, and, you know, she, uh, she sort of was able to parse that, but like, uh, that's, that's immediately what it is.
02:04:46
Speaker
You're absolutely right.
02:04:47
Speaker
It's, it's, um, I wouldn't be that blunt with someone unless I hated them.
02:04:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
02:04:56
Speaker
Which is almost the opposite for you.
02:04:58
Speaker
It's almost the opposite, yeah.
02:05:00
Speaker
Right, it's... I'm going to tell you what I think because we're bros.
02:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, because I care enough.
02:05:06
Speaker
I would not waste my time telling you anything if I thought...
02:05:12
Speaker
were either too dumb to listen or someone whose future I didn't care about.
02:05:17
Speaker
Right.
02:05:18
Speaker
Exactly.
02:05:18
Speaker
Exactly.
02:05:19
Speaker
And, uh, I had a conversation with, um, another guy who I think is an ENFP.
02:05:24
Speaker
He, he, um, he sort of tested himself as INFP.
02:05:31
Speaker
Okay.
02:05:32
Speaker
And we sort of had the realization that like, no, you just hate your job and you're sort of around people that you don't connect with.
02:05:39
Speaker
And so, um,
02:05:42
Speaker
For the record, ENTP and ENFP are pretty introverted for the extroverts.
02:05:48
Speaker
So they will often mistype as INFP or INTP or some other introverted type.
02:05:55
Speaker
So that's common.
02:05:58
Speaker
So, I mean, he was saying, yeah, and what it was fundamentally, and maybe you can tell me if this is right or wrong, my belief is that
02:06:11
Speaker
The difference between an introvert and an extrovert in the context like that is if an introvert is around someone that they don't, or around a group that they like can't hang with, they don't find it like nails on a chalkboard, like insufferable that they can't connect with these people.
02:06:34
Speaker
like an extrovert, an extrovert is like, I can't connect with these people.
02:06:38
Speaker
I can't say what I want to say.
02:06:40
Speaker
And it makes me want to die.
02:06:42
Speaker
Yeah.
02:06:43
Speaker
Yeah.
02:06:43
Speaker
That's an INFP or like specific and, and, and to a lesser extent than INTP.
02:06:49
Speaker
Yeah.
02:06:51
Speaker
Or, but yeah, well, I'm not saying it's just those two, but you're going to hear those words from the, from the introverted side.
02:06:58
Speaker
Yeah.
02:06:59
Speaker
Oh, wait.
02:07:00
Speaker
So you're saying those are the people who are frustrated by the fact they can't open up?
02:07:08
Speaker
Yeah.
02:07:08
Speaker
Well, then maybe he is an INFP.
02:07:12
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah, who knows?
02:07:13
Speaker
Well, not who knows.
02:07:14
Speaker
Like, I probably only, they have a very sort of lofty seriousness to them.
02:07:22
Speaker
Like, they're less playful, I find, than ENFPs.
02:07:29
Speaker
And they're more bookish.
02:07:32
Speaker
Like, it's a... So this guy is funny, but he's not playful.
02:07:37
Speaker
That's, okay, I think he's an INFP.
02:07:42
Speaker
So that's, that's trickster.
02:07:46
Speaker
We kind of went way off the rails.
02:07:47
Speaker
We went to a whole different other place, but.
02:07:49
Speaker
But I love going off the rails because that's what's interesting for me.
02:07:54
Speaker
Right.
02:07:54
Speaker
Like, yeah.
02:07:55
Speaker
Cause I get to start like speaking the language instead of teaching it.
02:08:01
Speaker
And then don't get me wrong.
02:08:02
Speaker
I like teaching.
02:08:03
Speaker
um but like i love speaking yeah like i like walking with the idea yeah go dig into it for sure yeah um man you would have had a lot of fun on our call last night uh we need to get you in there one of these days but um um we were talking about the trickster function and how it's the most sort of invisible to you um
02:08:28
Speaker
Oh, and that's interesting.
02:08:29
Speaker
And so for my wife, her trickster function would be NI, which is what do I want?
02:08:35
Speaker
And she's very self-sacrificing and very oriented toward what the group needs.
02:08:46
Speaker
And that's a problem that I haven't quite solved yet, which is how do I make her sit down and take care of herself?
02:08:59
Speaker
And because she gets exhausted and then she shuts down.
02:09:04
Speaker
And so it's like, I'm, I'm, it's very easy for me to like go to the well and, and, and replenish myself and take care of myself.
02:09:14
Speaker
I'm a very self-oriented person, selfish, you could say.
02:09:18
Speaker
And, and she absolutely is not.
02:09:23
Speaker
And it's like, that's good.
02:09:26
Speaker
up until, you know, the, the, the, the brake pads are worn out and the proverbially like your, your psychological brake pads are worn out and it's metal on metal.
02:09:37
Speaker
And, you know, you need to go, you need to go get it taken care of.
02:09:40
Speaker
You need to go get it taken care of.
02:09:42
Speaker
So, so that's interesting.
02:09:45
Speaker
That's, that's sort of her blind spot.
02:09:46
Speaker
That makes perfect sense.
02:09:48
Speaker
What you can do... Well, is it okay if I mention some... Let's go there.
02:09:54
Speaker
Let's do it.
02:09:55
Speaker
Okay.
02:09:57
Speaker
So one, as any hero, you can probably figure out what she wants, right?
02:10:03
Speaker
Yeah.
02:10:05
Speaker
So if she can trust your ability to suss out her ambitions...
02:10:11
Speaker
you can tell them to her.
02:10:15
Speaker
And then you can also say, and generally, ESFJs are all about family, so more than any other type.
02:10:25
Speaker
And so you could say, it is your job, it's your duty.
02:10:32
Speaker
SI users are motivated by duty.
02:10:34
Speaker
It is your duty to
02:10:37
Speaker
take care of yourself in a way that allows you to continue to be an awesome mother or whatever her ambition is.
02:10:47
Speaker
So it's your duty to do these things, to be selfish, I guess, because in the long run, you will be your best self if you take care, like,
02:11:02
Speaker
Like you, you owe it to the people you're responsible for to take care of your needs.
02:11:08
Speaker
Because if, if you like, it's a sort of kill the golden goose analogy.
02:11:15
Speaker
Right.
02:11:15
Speaker
Right.
02:11:16
Speaker
You're, you're, you're, you're writing checks that you can't cash.
02:11:20
Speaker
Yeah.
02:11:21
Speaker
Yeah.
02:11:21
Speaker
And so like, there's a certain, um, moral responsibility, which, uh,
02:11:29
Speaker
to meet the needs of virtue.
02:11:30
Speaker
So essentially, it's like, you must be selfish to meet your own goals and needs.
02:11:43
Speaker
And so it's like, this is your designated be.
02:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, and you'd have to teach her how to do that, essentially.
02:11:53
Speaker
Right?
02:11:53
Speaker
Yeah.
02:11:55
Speaker
It may even be like you having to exercise your social muscles and me having to literally go exercise.
02:12:11
Speaker
Yeah.
02:12:12
Speaker
It's sort of like for her, she needs defined, scheduled time to take care of herself.
02:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, and with that moral imperative, right?
02:12:26
Speaker
Like, your job is this.
02:12:29
Speaker
you have to be selfish, right?
02:12:31
Speaker
And then eventually that can move into a more natural like acceptance of, like it'll mold into her SI, right?
02:12:40
Speaker
Because it'll be, I remembered this experience.
02:12:43
Speaker
Yeah.
02:12:44
Speaker
And then it will become a part of the real self-care.
02:12:50
Speaker
But since it's coming from that angle of like self-focus, it'll feel naturally sort of
02:12:59
Speaker
bad, but I think if you say your family needs you and they need you to take care of you and this is a natural part of that ecosystem, please, for everybody, schedule some time for yourself.
02:13:16
Speaker
That makes sense.
02:13:17
Speaker
Yeah.
02:13:18
Speaker
So that's three instances of Trickster.
02:13:21
Speaker
I think that's a good, that
Demon Function in Extreme Stress
02:13:22
Speaker
illustrates the concept really well.
02:13:23
Speaker
Yeah.
02:13:25
Speaker
Then there's the demon and it's called the demon partly because it's your worst, you know, it's the thing that you're the worst at and you know you're the worst at it.
02:13:39
Speaker
But it's also something that you maybe can only access during or after
02:13:52
Speaker
maybe trauma is too deep a word, but extreme stress.
02:13:57
Speaker
And so, I mean, is that a fair characterization for first of all?
02:14:06
Speaker
I would almost say it has to be really traumatic.
02:14:10
Speaker
But there's a world in which it doesn't have to be that way.
02:14:18
Speaker
But in my experience, it's almost always, but not always.
02:14:24
Speaker
Theoretically, you could go looking for it and try to develop it, but you're not going to, basically.
02:14:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
02:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, and I don't like saying that, but like reality plays that like, like maybe maybe there's some world in which like your Moses and there's your burning bush and God shows you here is your demon function and it's like, oh, there it is.
02:14:46
Speaker
Okay, now I know how to like conceptually that that could exist.
02:14:51
Speaker
But yeah, for the most part, it's just like cataclysmic life events will manifest your demon function.
02:14:59
Speaker
Right.
02:15:00
Speaker
So in your case, that is introverted feeling.
02:15:03
Speaker
Yeah.
02:15:04
Speaker
Which is, um, what do I think is right?
02:15:08
Speaker
What do I think is good?
02:15:11
Speaker
Yeah.
02:15:12
Speaker
And, um, as I've watched you, um, over the course of our time together, that definitely makes sense as like, um,
02:15:24
Speaker
that's another one that you are sort of being ping-ponged against.
02:15:28
Speaker
You're bouncing off of challenges and struggles.
02:15:35
Speaker
And it's in the dark moment when you're thinking about like, am I doing what's right?
02:15:43
Speaker
Or is my life right?
02:15:49
Speaker
Yeah, as opposed to am I effectively achieving my goals or am I correct?
02:15:58
Speaker
Which are separate questions.
02:16:00
Speaker
Yeah.
02:16:02
Speaker
Yeah, all of those struggles, basically all of my shadow functions show up.
02:16:06
Speaker
Although the easiest, the one that I can regularly access now is TE.
02:16:11
Speaker
I can hit my fifth function decently.
02:16:15
Speaker
That's it.
02:16:16
Speaker
That's the only one.
02:16:19
Speaker
And that's after a lot of work.
02:16:22
Speaker
And then FI, I know it exists because it's erupted in my life enough times that I'm like, OK,
02:16:30
Speaker
it's in it's in that back storeroom in the closet right um like and and i can hear like yeah and so if you don't feed it a scrap every once in a while like one of these nights it's gonna bust out of the cage and it's gonna burn your life down like yeah so and and and so
02:16:52
Speaker
Yeah, like, recognizing its reality, I think, is essential for a healthy life.
02:16:58
Speaker
Yeah.
02:16:58
Speaker
Like, realizing there is a part of you that's this destructive, powerful element that's, like, held captive and silent.
02:17:11
Speaker
Like...
02:17:12
Speaker
So to the INTPs, just recognizing that you're not only an agnostic automaton that says true false things to like, that is not true.
02:17:26
Speaker
Right.
02:17:27
Speaker
You have biases, you have feelings, you have your preferences influence your judgment, even though you think that they don't.
02:17:38
Speaker
And, um, like in my case, it's, it's extroverted sensing, which is, um, this is definitely true.
02:17:48
Speaker
Like at my most heightened and my most, uh, um, freaked out, uh, that's when I am the closest to becoming physically aggressive.
02:18:06
Speaker
And, um,
02:18:09
Speaker
And yeah, and that's not only knowing how to, like, you know, I guess, you know, learn how to fight in case you're ever in a fight, right?
02:18:22
Speaker
But one thing that I'm noticing now is like,
02:18:29
Speaker
physically disciplining my kids is a challenge and i don't i don't mean like uh you know i know what you mean whooping on them but like i'm gonna you're in this situation i'm gonna pick you up and i'm gonna physically move you uh because you know you're throwing a fit you need to go to your room or whatever and um
02:18:53
Speaker
that is a demon function for me because I can, I like, I can catch myself like, Oh, I'm gripping really tightly.
02:19:00
Speaker
Yeah.
02:19:01
Speaker
And that's not right.
02:19:02
Speaker
I shouldn't be doing that.
02:19:04
Speaker
And, and, and that kind of thing, like my ability to calibrate, um,
02:19:13
Speaker
And, you know, it's about giving them an experience, right?
02:19:16
Speaker
It's a negative experience, but it's about like, I need my kids to have an appropriate experience that dissuades them from the behavior.
02:19:25
Speaker
Yeah.
02:19:26
Speaker
And I'm, I'm pretty bad at doing that.
02:19:29
Speaker
Yeah.
02:19:30
Speaker
And so, so that, that makes sense as, as my demon.
02:19:34
Speaker
And it's also like, every time I got in a fight in school, I
02:19:38
Speaker
it was this sort of flailing emotional mess.
02:19:42
Speaker
I was not effective.
02:19:44
Speaker
Right.
02:19:45
Speaker
And, um, and yeah, so that, that makes perfect sense.
02:19:49
Speaker
It was, it was very much like I was not in control of it.
02:19:52
Speaker
It just sort of came out and, um,
02:19:56
Speaker
Yeah, like one of the things I want to do is take some BJJ classes to try to, because I actually like, so one of the ways that me and my stepdad connected, we didn't connect on a lot of things.
02:20:10
Speaker
One of the things that we intermittently would connect on is like he was learning jujitsu and we would like wrestle and that was fun to me.
02:20:18
Speaker
And I think it was partly because it was,
02:20:23
Speaker
like we were saying before, it's more about your presence in your body rather than like, where's the ball?
02:20:31
Speaker
Where's the team?
02:20:33
Speaker
And so it was a way for me to step into that landscape just more easily.
02:20:42
Speaker
And that's very much where he lives.
02:20:46
Speaker
And so it was hard to find common ground, like almost in a literal sense.
02:20:53
Speaker
And so it's not that I don't enjoy it.
02:20:58
Speaker
It's just that it's obviously a weak spot.
02:21:03
Speaker
It's obviously, well, and it's, I don't enjoy it enough to make it a strength, if that makes sense.
02:21:11
Speaker
It does, yeah.
02:21:13
Speaker
So, and then, so my wife's is extroverted thinking, which that's,
02:21:22
Speaker
What does the group think?
02:21:24
Speaker
What does everybody think?
02:21:25
Speaker
And I'm trying
Understanding Personality Dynamics
02:21:26
Speaker
to figure out how that becomes, how that comes out in a situation of trauma.
02:21:34
Speaker
Yeah, again, it doesn't... Some of them make sense.
02:21:38
Speaker
Like, you're like, oh, I could visualize that.
02:21:41
Speaker
Like, okay, so if I want to categorize it, the way it really looks is, like, if you're full on in your superego, right?
02:21:51
Speaker
And for the record, guys...
02:21:52
Speaker
your lowest function is, so your superego is your demon function as a hero function.
02:22:01
Speaker
So for Dr. Bennett, it's an ESTP.
02:22:08
Speaker
And for me, it's an ISFP.
02:22:12
Speaker
And so there's essentially like a Maleficent
02:22:17
Speaker
Aaron Shawlman 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-
02:22:34
Speaker
Like, I will send you to prison and I will find all the rules that you've done wrong.
02:22:41
Speaker
And I'm going to be like lawful evil, essentially.
02:22:47
Speaker
Okay.
02:22:48
Speaker
Yeah.
02:22:50
Speaker
I remember every crime that you've committed.
02:22:55
Speaker
Yeah.
02:22:56
Speaker
And we're going to... Yes.
02:22:58
Speaker
Okay.
02:22:58
Speaker
That makes sense.
02:22:59
Speaker
Yeah.
02:23:00
Speaker
But it's different than like an ESFJ being that because the ESTJ...
02:23:04
Speaker
it's, it's going to be like dispassionate and like, yeah, like, like you did this, you did this, you did this, you did this, you did this, therefore you go to prison forever, like, or you, or you lose your head or like whatever version of that comes out.
02:23:21
Speaker
Right.
02:23:22
Speaker
And, and, uh, okay.
02:23:23
Speaker
So, and, and I, I, um,
02:23:27
Speaker
I want to be careful here, both of her feelings, but also of the truth here.
02:23:31
Speaker
Like what I actually find in those moments.
02:23:37
Speaker
So, okay, now this blows the lid off something because like often when she and I will fight, I will come to the end of it feeling like we had this catharsis.
02:23:51
Speaker
Like we came together.
02:23:53
Speaker
And she'll be like, no, but I'm still mad.
02:23:57
Speaker
And, and, and I'll be like, no, no, I get you now.
02:24:00
Speaker
I, this makes so much sense.
02:24:01
Speaker
Like, thank you.
02:24:02
Speaker
Thank you for fighting with me and having this argument.
02:24:05
Speaker
And she's like, no, but it was exhausting.
02:24:08
Speaker
And, um, and I think, I think part of it is because she does kind of, she kind of goes cold.
02:24:15
Speaker
She becomes rational.
02:24:17
Speaker
She, she's very like that, that, that, these are the things that, these are the things, these are the grievances.
02:24:22
Speaker
And, um,
02:24:25
Speaker
And that actually is very easy for me to like metabolize.
02:24:32
Speaker
And I'm sort of like, oh, well, I didn't know you felt that way.
02:24:36
Speaker
I'm sorry.
02:24:39
Speaker
Yeah.
02:24:40
Speaker
Oh, and for the record, that can also be alternatively, that could be just TI inferior, like, but
02:24:47
Speaker
It's probably not just that.
02:24:49
Speaker
It might be like a superego type thing.
02:24:52
Speaker
She's got to be mad.
02:24:53
Speaker
She's got to be real mad.
02:24:55
Speaker
Okay.
02:24:56
Speaker
Okay.
02:24:57
Speaker
Yeah.
02:24:59
Speaker
And yeah, it's a high stress and it's not a fun thing for her.
02:25:11
Speaker
And it's, I mean, it's not a fun thing for me, but it is kind of a beautiful thing for me.
02:25:16
Speaker
Like I, I, I'm thinking back on those moments very, very like warmly, like those were good moments.
02:25:23
Speaker
Cause, cause she needed to do that.
02:25:24
Speaker
She needed to have that transformative, um, to speak her mind.
02:25:31
Speaker
Yeah.
02:25:32
Speaker
Yeah.
02:25:32
Speaker
And for someone like both, yeah.
02:25:34
Speaker
Especially ESFJs who are generally hyper conscientious and hyper agreeable, like,
02:25:40
Speaker
being in an argument is tremendously awful.
02:25:44
Speaker
Yeah.
02:25:45
Speaker
Like more so probably for that type than just about any other type.
02:25:49
Speaker
I mean, she hates it.
02:25:52
Speaker
Yeah.
02:25:53
Speaker
Yeah, I actually think it like combination of F.E.
02:25:56
Speaker
hero and S.I.
02:25:57
Speaker
parent and T.I.
02:25:59
Speaker
inferior and it's the whole game.
02:26:00
Speaker
Everything.
02:26:01
Speaker
Yeah.
02:26:02
Speaker
Everything about that sounds sounds really awful.
02:26:05
Speaker
Yeah.
02:26:07
Speaker
Yeah.
02:26:07
Speaker
But but cool.
02:26:08
Speaker
OK, so you so you navigated like a confrontational space and you guys learn some stuff.
02:26:16
Speaker
Yeah.
02:26:17
Speaker
And yeah, I don't know that.
02:26:21
Speaker
I don't know that I have done as much exploring of that as she has, as far as my sort of demon type.
02:26:30
Speaker
And I mean, to be fair, she's been through more in her time than I have.
02:26:36
Speaker
And so you said that yours is ISFP, is that right?
02:26:39
Speaker
Yeah.
02:26:41
Speaker
And so when you are in this dark, miserable space,
02:26:51
Speaker
It's like, I'm a bad person.
02:26:56
Speaker
I gave everybody a bad experience.
02:27:02
Speaker
It's very implosive rather than explosive.
02:27:06
Speaker
Yeah, it tends to be implosive.
02:27:09
Speaker
And then at a certain point, it can be explosive, but it trends towards implosion.
02:27:15
Speaker
Yeah.
02:27:17
Speaker
Yeah.
02:27:17
Speaker
Right.
02:27:17
Speaker
So, so ISFPs can get in fights and, and hit people and stuff, but like you, you gotta go real far, but like they can, cause they're still physical, right.
02:27:28
Speaker
They're se, they're se parent.
02:27:30
Speaker
And that's true for me too.
02:27:32
Speaker
Like I've got a really, really long, long physical fuse, but it does erupt eventually.
02:27:39
Speaker
Um,
02:27:41
Speaker
And so, and that's been my experience as well.
02:27:46
Speaker
Yeah.
02:27:47
Speaker
Well, I think, honestly, I think that having these concrete examples, at least for me, makes it feel like it removes a little bit of the sort of sprawling complexity of this model.
02:28:03
Speaker
And I really think that we've covered...
02:28:06
Speaker
the high points pretty effectively.
02:28:09
Speaker
We'll see what everybody thinks.
02:28:13
Speaker
But this was a ton of fun, man.
02:28:15
Speaker
And so you
Conclusion and Engagement
02:28:16
Speaker
have these weekly calls.
02:28:17
Speaker
Well, I'll tell you, why don't we do it this way?
02:28:21
Speaker
What if I get a group of my guys together and we just bring you in for a call and we just do sort of the guys that are interested just for our group?
02:28:32
Speaker
I think just, yeah, I would like that.
02:28:37
Speaker
Well, that sounds great, man.
02:28:39
Speaker
Thanks so much for coming on the show.
02:28:41
Speaker
Check us out at exitgroup.us for Scott's group.
02:28:45
Speaker
Reach out to me.
02:28:47
Speaker
I can put you in touch and get you learning more about what he's doing.
02:28:50
Speaker
Thanks so much for your time, Scott.
02:28:52
Speaker
Yeah, thank you.