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Hopedaddy
29 Plays1 year ago
My guest today wears many hats. He’s a lawyer and Law Professor at Indiana University, has been a DJ at Bloomington, Indiana’s community radio station WFHB where his HopeDaddy moniker was born.
He and I crossed paths during my time in Indianapolis, where I knew him as a fellow live-music lover as we were often in the audience of the same clubs. Then in 2021 he took the stage himself as a songwriter and recording artist with the release of his debut album aptly titled Here I Come.
In a bit of a diversion I’m recording this intro AFTER our conversation. We had an interesting conversation about several of the songs from that record, the singles he’s been releasing leading up to its follow up, Songs of the Siren Wires. The Bruce, Johnny Cash, John Prine and other influences he brings to his Americana, roots-rock and to what degree the people around us realize that they can become characters in our songs at any given moment.
I enjoyed this conversation so much that after I stopped the recording we ended up talking for another twenty minutes. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did so with that, please welcome to Wilsbach’s Song Pod recording artist Hopedaddy, also known as Mark Need.
To support my work on this podcast and my musical journey, come join me on Patreon (there’s a free option if your’e cheap or broke): http://www.patreon.com/wilsbach
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Transcript
Introduction and Technical Glitch
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to Willsbach's Songpod, a show where we dig deep into the songs and artists that move us and how we're moved to craft the songs we write. I'm Tim Willsbach, and I write, release, and perform music as Willsbach, and you can find me anywhere you stream music.
00:00:16
Speaker
Let's dig in. Program note for this week's episode. I had a little technical issue with the microphone. That technical issue being, I basically didn't turn it on. You can see it in the picture there, speaking into the nice microphone, but didn't have it actually routed into the recorder. So I'm going to sound a little boomy and echoey this week.
00:00:36
Speaker
I tried a fancy AI-enhanced speech tool that I had, but it ended up making me sound like a robot. So we're just gonna go with what we have and it'll get better. Not next week, because I did it for the next episode too. Long story. But we'll get back to normal pretty soon.
Meet Hope Daddy: Lawyer, DJ, and Musician
00:00:53
Speaker
My guest today wears many hats. He's a lawyer and law professor at Indiana University. Hats has been a DJ at Bloomington, Indiana's community radio station, WFHB, where his Hope Daddy moniker was born.
00:01:17
Speaker
he took the stage himself as a singer, songwriter, and recording artist with the recent release of his debut album, aptly titled here I come. In a bit of a diversion, I'm recording this intro after our conversation. We had a really interesting one about several of the songs from that record, the singles he's been releasing leading up to
00:02:06
Speaker
I hope you enjoy it as much as we did.
The Origin of Hope Daddy's Name
00:02:08
Speaker
So with that, please welcome to Willsbox Songpod recording artist Hope Daddy, also known as Martin. How are you? I'm great. Thanks. Happy to be here. Yeah, super happy to be here. ah Hope Daddy, where does that name come from? i don't I don't think I've ever asked you that before. I've known you for a long time, but I've never i've never really talked about what what that what that name is and where that comes from.
00:02:33
Speaker
Maybe it may be less interesting than than one would hope. So I probably should come up with a better story about about where it came from. But that's maybe almost 20 years ago. I when I moved to Bloomington, Indiana, I was coming on the air as a DJ on WFHB, our beloved local community radio station here in Bloomington um at the behest of a good friend ah that I worked with and Looked forward to it, did all the training, all of that. Got within an hour of starting and he looked at me and said, by the way, what's your DJ name? I didn't have any idea I was gonna need a DJ name. And do the math on the on the age of of the internet and such things that long ago. ah Of all things, my daughter,
00:03:23
Speaker
Zoe who's now 27. I had signed up for an early account on eBay. And as we do when our first children are born, you tend to like, I could guess anybody's password in the world if I knew what their first, what their first child was named probably. I think I tried Zoe Daddy and it was already taken and her middle name is Hope and I went with Hope Daddy.
00:03:49
Speaker
um And in the moment, back at the radio station, ah Hope Daddy. ah And so I was a DJ on the air at WFHB for a few years and on the board as Hope Daddy. And and in a town like this, ah sometimes it's the kind of nickname that sticks. And some people around the station don't even know your name. They just know you as Hope Daddy. So that rolled right and ah into my artist name,
Musical Alter Egos and Inspirations
00:04:13
Speaker
too. And you know, Tim, I've always been kind of fascinated with the whole notion of an alter ego.
00:04:18
Speaker
especially if your worlds are as far apart as some of my worlds are. So I really have a thing for Waxahatchee and Phosphorescent and these artists that that, you know, have this alter ego, this single name alter ego. Madonna, you know, she's kind of my idol in songwriting Madonna.
00:04:40
Speaker
Yeah. So hope daddy it's been and hope daddy we we run with. Um, yeah, I mean, obviously I feel the same way. I want to, I wanted a little bit of space between me and, you know, the artist and the and the work that I was putting out, you know, my two earlier bands before the will swap records were Paging Raymond and appeal. No, you had, you had, there was some safety when you've got, you know, three other guys on stage with you. Um, and you're releasing records. as a collective and You can kind of you know you can you can kind hide a little little bit more than you can if it's just, hey, this is me and my name and and these are my stories and my feelings.
WFHB Radio and Bloomington's Influence
00:05:22
Speaker
I think there's actually a lot to that. You wouldn't think that ah a fake name when everybody knows who you are would give you that much creative freedom, but it's it's a little bit liberating. And and and in your case, up now a little bit of space is literally
00:05:35
Speaker
One Space. Yeah, so Will's Park. Yeah, exactly. yeah So yeah, so WFHB, I don't know how long that place is around, but I remember, I don't know if this is when they started, but when I was in school at Bloomington, I know they were at least moving into like,
00:05:53
Speaker
It wasn't the was it a fire station was like yeah, was that was at the beginning of that radio station or just that's that a move to that place that was that was the beginning and and still is same fire station and and if I say what I'm about to say.
00:06:09
Speaker
you're gonna roll your eyes and think I didn't put that together, but FHP is firehouse broadcasting. So they have, they yeah, so they've been in the firehouse since, oh, somebody will post in a comment that I that i missed it. I love that place and love those guys and they've been really supportive, but but I'm gonna say 1992. Yeah, I mean, that would that would track. I mean, i I started, I'm gonna date myself here too, but I started it as a freshman at Indiana in 1991. So that would, have a better while right 84, my friends, so so yeah. and and ah
00:06:42
Speaker
You know, shout out for the one millionth time on this campus to to to Dr. Wells, ah even WFHB. There's so many things on this campus 30, 40, 50 years later that are legacies of of Herman Wells and FHB is one of them. he He, I don't remember the exact story, but he really facilitated the the gift that ah put it together so that they could launch the station back in 1992 and ah they're in the firehouse and there it is. Yeah, that's super cool.
The Making of 'Here I Come' Album
00:07:11
Speaker
I love that. so you Your Hope Daddy moniker was was kind of you know instantly born or or you you didn't put a lot of pre-thought into it at the front of your brain at least, but you at least have liked it enough to have released a couple records so far. You've got a new one coming out and you've got a couple singles out that we'll talk about a little later. and Then your first one you released in 2021, is that right? Here I come.
00:07:35
Speaker
At least here I come in September of 21. Has it been three years? That's embarrassing that it's taken me that long, which is probably a conversation worth having songwriting and perfectionism and those things as well. But yeah, so we um we were ready to go right about when COVID was in full swing. um So in 2020, I had a batch of songs. so ah Now, these were pre-written pre-COVID, or is there some of them on there that seem like middle of COVID? So like when did you start writing that record? I think I'm ah i'm trying to remember. Definitely wrote ah some of those songs ahead of COVID. I mean, I was you know maybe a little bit different path to where I am, but but had written a couple of songs for my daughters. Largely, both of my daughters um and both of those songs ah appear on that record.
00:08:29
Speaker
you're exactly right now that I'm playing it through in my mind. So one of them was definitely written ah literally on the night ah that that COVID became a reality. So there's a- Crown of black, right? Crown of black, that's exactly right. So my older daughter Zoe was in Washington DC and at her first big girl job, if you will, after after graduation from her master's program and ah independent rocking it, just doing a great job and got that phone call that was like,
00:08:57
Speaker
I don't know what this is, but I'm you know i'm scared and and you know this is a apparent. You can't say, I'm scared too. So a little bit of redemption in that song ah for for whatever regrets you have along the way. But yeah, you see it right there in the lyrics. That was definitely a COVID gassed up the truck and drove overnight to DC and picked her up and and and brought her back. and literally wrote that song, Crown of Black, in in the truck on the way out there.
00:10:09
Speaker
You're right, I'm gonna guess A third of that maybe was written during COVID. ah I can't tell you when we went into the studio other than all of the studio pictures. We are fully masked and probably was an era where we shouldn't have even been masked and together in the studio. But you got to make ah you got to make an exception for some things like making a rock and roll record. So ah you know we were very conservative about COVID and who was in our bubble and who wasn't. And then all of a sudden the opportunity was
00:10:40
Speaker
an amazing group of musicians came together in the studio and I went, oh, what bubble? Here we go. Let's go do this. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds great. I don't know who was who played on your record, but you clearly, clearly got some talent in there. Yeah. That first record. I mean, it it really is a COVID story, Tim, to be honest with you. the The signature sound of that record is due to a couple of really good friends. But Keith Scugland, I don't know if you know Keith or not. It's an old ah Bloomington guy has been around. I've known him for Over 30 years, had a band called Medicine Wheel back in the 90s. Oh yeah, okay. Played with a lot of people, played with Kerry Newcomer for years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um And has been a really good friend all along. He had just made a record that he released, ah one was excited about that I loved with ah with the help of Paul Mayhern here in Bloomington. And one night we were talking about songwriting and I picked up the guitar and played the song I had written for my other daughter and he said,
00:11:39
Speaker
You know, I've been thinking about making a record or I've been thinking about somebody else making a record and I want to sit in the chair that Paul said in. He said, why don't you get these songs together that you've got and you can make a record and all produce it. And the lineup for that first record.
00:11:55
Speaker
um is a guy named Rob Calder. I don't know if you know Rob or not. So robs ah Rob's truly a cutter. He's an old Bloomington guy. Been around a long time. His his dad was the head of the opera department at the Jacobs School for, I don't know how many years, like Bloomington plumington Royalty down here. um Rob's played with a number of bands, but principally and at that time was playing bass for passenger and came back to Bloomington to help take care of his dad.
00:12:26
Speaker
um And I met Rob or reconnected with Rob. I don't know if we had known years ago and known him years ago. And the conversation started and he said something along the lines of, well, the passenger some of the guys from passenger can't go out on the road right now anyway. Would you like them to contribute to your record? um When you have zero streams and Let Her Go has 3.2 billion streams, I think the answer to that question is is yes.
00:12:54
Speaker
um So yeah, that first record, I just got really lucky. I mean, Keith and Rob too, just incredibly talented ah musicians, guitar and bass. And let's be honest, really held my hand through through a lot of the process and added a lot to songs I had already written. and um And I don't remember what Rob's connection was, but the drummer on that record is a guy named Matt Johnson and Matt um drums on I should know exactly which tracks and I can't remember, but he was a buddy of Jeff Buckley's and he drums on two or three of the tracks on Grace.
Reflections on Songs and Performances
00:13:30
Speaker
oh um So again, ah the answer is yes, when that question is asked. ah Matt came in from Austin, Texas, and Rob was living here. And and we did most of that record here at Russian Recording in Bloomington. And a couple of fly-ins from a couple of the passenger guys, Ben Edgar, who plays guitar, amazing guitar player for
00:13:54
Speaker
ah passenger and John Solo who's who plays keys for passenger as well. so um It's a cool story except that I always tell people, you know if you if you know anything about ah scientific controls, what a control is in an experiment, I say you know a couple of the songs on that first record, it's the perfect control. It's passenger, but without Mike, without passenger, and with me, like the only difference between the two. and One of us has streams in the thousands.
00:14:24
Speaker
And one of us has 3.2 billion streams. And the only difference is it's this guy and not that guy. So talk about kind of you know hearing carrying the weight of that around. Well, that'll be some marketing dollars. Let's give you a little bit. OK. Well, know I'll take it. Maybe we'll find it. But yeah, a great experience and and obviously some pretty personal songs. And and you know a first record that, um from a songwriting perspective, three years on, I would say about a third of it.
00:14:53
Speaker
I kind of stand behind. I've listened to it when it comes up here and there every once in a while or or it's on at a Friends or something or on a playlist. I think, yeah, I'll stand behind that. About a third of it, I think, I might have done that a little bit differently. And about a third of it, I just absolutely cringe. like i'm I'm not going to take anything down, but you know that first record kind of literally finding your voice. I guess figuratively finding your voice, but literally finding your voice. There's about a third of it that When I play it live alone, it doesn't sound anything like anymore what it sounded like on that first record. so I think that's that's pretty i mean like that's pretty normal. I don't know if the you know numbers are the same for everybody, but I mean i think that you grow as a songwriter and you see the mistakes that you made along the way or what you do differently. and it's I think it's just a part of the growth of the whole thing. Definitely was part of the evolution. and Based on the timing and the availability of everybody, we also didn't have
00:15:48
Speaker
20 tracks and we chose 11. We had 12 tracks and we chose 11 or 13 tracks and we chose 11. So we went with what we had. And and um again, I love the songs, but I definitely play them and sing them in a different way than and I did three years ago um that has some consistency that really, you know by the time the second record came around, I had played out more and felt a little a little more. I'd found my space, right? So I found my place.
00:16:18
Speaker
Now, so when I knew you back, in but what backck I mean, i I'm not sure the last time I actually saw you in person. It probably might have been, I don't know, I've been in LA now for 12 or 13 years. wow So, I mean, it's probably its probably been 15 or 16 since you and I have been in the same room. But even then, I just knew you kind of as a guy that, you know, we ended up in the same clubs watching the same bands more often than not.
00:16:44
Speaker
So I didn't know you as ah as a songwriter or a performer. Have you always written? Is this a new thing? or what because i was Because I was neither. Okay. Because I wasn't. um You know, always thought maybe I i would write um kind of a classic ah three chords in the truth guitar strummer and ah owned own more guitars than I'd Deserved to own, although that's still that's still true today, even though maybe ah I've moved up the learning curve a little bit. The guitars are still way out ahead of the of the skill of the owner at this point. But but now it wasn't. I was, ah you know, singing songs to my to my baby girls in bed and in the bathtub every night um and had little pieces of things.
00:17:29
Speaker
floating around in my head, but not playing out. It was some combination of midlife crisis and or just another creative outlet at that point. I i'm ah i'm ah have always been a music freak and a live music freak and and so it was fun to try to take that from the other side of the table, if you will. so yeah Yeah, so you mentioned you mentioned Madtown.
Song Inspirations and Personal Stories
00:17:53
Speaker
it's interesting that was the first one so thats ah mean you're driving somebody to college is that what that that song is my daughter yeah my daughter the Ella was looking at University of Wisconsin and ah my first wife her mom and I eloped and we raced off to Madison however many years earlier that would have been easily 20 20 plus years ahead of that um And I was really excited for her to see the Madison that I loved and the Madison that I knew. And and maybe copping a little bit of of of Bruce, my my hero here. But but you know bruce has Bruce has a song and and says a few words here and there and shows about letting your kids' mistakes be their own and letting their lives be their own. you know you're You're a parent, Tim. you' you know
00:18:46
Speaker
you know a little bit about that. hard to dan that and and And I wanted her to love that town the way that I love that town. um And so we drove up to Madison and she's also a music fan, music freak, gorgeous singing voice, singing in the car all the way up there. Couldn't wait to to get her up there and see the town that I loved and got there. And saying nothing negative about Madison because you could say it about Bloomington, Indiana and Chicago, Illinois and LA and everything else. It wasn't the same town. and And I found myself walking around that town just with a really, this heavy feeling that I had to make an excuse and explain to her like it used to be but used to be this great town that had X, Y and Z.
00:19:33
Speaker
And we rounded the corner at some point and I turned turned around to say to her like, not really, I'm sorry, but this isn't exactly what it was. And I turned around on the street and looked at her and she said, isn't this place cool? This place is so cool. And I thought there was my moment, right? This is, this isn't about me. You know, sometimes of course, as a parent, it's not about you, but sometimes you got to be slapped right in the face with the notion It's not about you, right? We're up here for her. And and and this is her town. And so hence hence the the line, Madtown's for her and not for me, right? It's going to be whatever whatever whatever it would be to her. A little coded to that story. She ended up going to IU and not going to not going to Wisconsin. and um But that was the first sort of complete song, ah you know a straight ahead Travis picked.
00:20:23
Speaker
if if I may be so bold with all ah due respect to probably our our common friend, Jason Wilbur, kind of a John Prine tune, right? it's just ah Travis picked a song and she was a John Prine fan too, so it felt right in the feel and um and and felt right. I think maybe the first time I had written a complete song that felt like something, that felt like me, that there was something there that I could put out.
00:21:18
Speaker
I mean, there's listening to the songs on that on that first record. It it definitely feels ah a lot of, it feels like there's a lot of autobiographical stuff happening in there. You can definitely hear your your Bruce.
00:21:34
Speaker
You know influence on there specifically Bristol and Mars If you hear Bruce in there, yeah, Bristol and Mars is on that record. Yeah, if you hear bru I'll take wherever you think you hear Bruce I'll take it. But well you even mentioned the chicken man and the boardwalk and that's Queen City State No, no, and and that's yeah, that's I would say that there's a um To say that that's a Bruce influence is is not even being generous enough that is just a flat out you know i'm interested if you have the same experience that. Or you or you did you've been writing music a lot longer writing songs a lot longer than i have but sometimes you pick something that's a little bit of a north star and i have this moment that i think. Well that's a little bit too on the nose.
00:22:18
Speaker
in my ears yeah but sometimes this great thing happens where you think it's too on the nose and it's not going to work but by the time you i share it with keith and he fills in his pieces and makes some changes and then you share it with the band and then the band does something else with it and then it gets mixed in a certain way and i think by the end apparently that's not happening with queen city station but by the end you have this thing that really is is You know, through your lens, its maybe it's Bruce through Hope Daddy's lens or something, but it's become its own thing that just sounds like the four of us on that day. um But yeah, ah Queen City Station's a little ah Bruce you know shout out to my my beloved Mira, right? that that That I really wanted Queen City Station to have that
00:23:04
Speaker
ah river marah feel of just push record and there's a party in the room. And and we had a lot of fun with that. And and Hazel Miller, who sings backup for an amazing singer in her own right as well, but I met her backup singer for Big Head Todd. That's her singing backup on Queen City Station as well. So it was supposed to have that sort of Bruce-ish mirage party feel, but man, does it feel dirty even trying to claim that. i'm glad you're I'm glad you heard that. Yeah, for sure. And then ah another thing that you've I thought was notable when you were talking about Madtown and you're telling that story about your daughter and and and and being in a place and and having a different you know it's present is different than the memories that you made there you've got your opening line for that Bristol and Mars has that same kind of thing, right? it's There's a bar where our bar used to be, and same old sign on the door, but I walk in the bartender's stairs like he's never seen me before. That's that same kind of thing, right? I think that's a great first line. I'll tell you about Bristol and Mars.
Release Strategies and Music Industry Insights
00:24:10
Speaker
I don't think it's any mystery to him if he's paid attention to it, but that's my father-in-law, really. So ah my father-in-law, I found myself in Bristol, Connecticut, and a rental driving a rental car with my
00:24:24
Speaker
father-in-law in the passenger seat, and without going into gory detail, feeling ah sensing some regret in his voice as as he led me around on a tour of Bristol, and here was this great narration from the passenger seat. ah He must have been 82 or 83 years old, and I'm driving him around where he raised his family, and he's just telling me, there used to be a bar there.
00:24:53
Speaker
There used to be a library there. Oh, we used to go to dances up on the hill in this building. This is, when and eventually we round a corner and this is where the foundry was, where he worked. And it's, it's leveled. It's flat. It's gone. You can see sort of the ground and the base where the foundry used to be. So Bristol and Mars, that's a, that's nothing more than a passenger seat recitation of what Bristol, Connecticut used to be.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah. nice nice Sometimes you're just a conduit for that kind of thing, right? You leave your mind open to it and you've got the antennas up and you're looking for for places to pull inspiration from. I'm sure this happens to you too, but when you're trying to write songs and somebody opens and starts a narrative like that, you're just in your mind thinking, just keep it coming. i hope i'm I hope I'm capturing as much of this as I can. Right. Do you mind if I take notes? Yeah.
00:25:43
Speaker
So and so that was your last record. You've got a new record coming out. You've got two singles out for it. So i you but I guess I don't really know this. I'm assuming you're putting out another full length record or are you putting out another full length record? You know, a good question for all of us. What is a full length? What is a full length record now? Um, so two, two weeks ago, first single dropped, um, stranger friend. And then last Friday,
00:26:08
Speaker
was a song called Peacocks, which talk about on the nose is just an intentionally on the nose stones style rocker. And um Tomorrow is the first slow one we're releasing. It's a song called 14 Shades of Blue Tomorrow. Don't know how far we're going to go into the waterfall, but you know back to the songwriting, it's ah it's a funny thing. and and And I'm sure you've experienced it as well, Tim, that that you put so much thought and energy and experience and worry and effort and everything into one song. And if you drop any more than you could tell better than me, but any more than four together, they're some of them just necessarily aren't gonna get any attention at all. And that definitely, you know I was so excited to release Here I Come with 12 tracks on it. And I can look at the analytics on that
00:27:07
Speaker
Not that that's why I'm letting it go out there, but I can look at the analytics on that and you can just see them taper off, right? that With the attention span ah that that a that a quote unquote album gets anymore. So we're trying as a little experiment to release a single and at least give a weak space for an opportunity for that song to breathe, for for for that moment of vulnerability that we all have that you just had with your with your new record that that you put it out there in the world for the first time, that you at least give it a week to say, this is what this is, spend some time with it. There's more coming. You might love it, you might hate it, but I want you to at least spend some time if you're going to stream Hope Daddy, paying attention to this song for a week. um I'm not sure that I won't do that for every song on the record and then release the record altogether. I you know i don't know.
00:27:56
Speaker
um But but that's the theory so far so we're three we're three in as of tomorrow Yeah, I did the same waterfall release, but I just I did I only did three three singles on ten on a ten song direction And I spaced them out was trying what I was trying to do with the waterfall is to hit the the almighty Spotify algorithm only you can only do the whatever their promotion thing is once every four weeks, so I I sure forget what it is. right So the idea behind that was yeah, just give it the space obviously from an artistic standpoint, but also from the business part of it. Let's let's try to maximize you know the machine and give the machine the biggest chance to pump those songs out. I think it remains to be seen. like For one thing, you can't look into the parallel universe and see what would have happened if you had done it another way, so you say you're never really certain.
00:28:48
Speaker
and this is anecdotal and not empirical, but but <unk>ip as a songwriter, as a creator, receiving direct comments from friends, fans, followers, et cetera, on specific songs each week has almost made it worth it. That alone has almost made it worth it, even if in the overall picture I don't end up with more streams or it's no more likely to be picked up in a pitched playlist on Spotify or otherwise. It's been a lot of fun to get pretty direct questions about just the first two songs so far or pretty direct feedback on the first two songs. So so I think well we'll keep that up for four or five of the songs anyway.
00:29:28
Speaker
Well let me ask you one of those direct questions about Stranger Friend, which is the first one, first single you released. I think I know, ah but maybe I don't. Who are you singing that song to? ah show maybe i don't maybe i have no idea but Should I put you
Songwriting Process and Creative Discipline
00:29:43
Speaker
on the spot? Who who do you think it is? I mean, it's ah it's solid there's definitely some Johnny Cash in there somewhere, so I don't know if this is ah you know you know putting yourself in his shoes in his last days or whatever. I wanted to ask you first before I you know steered you in another direction. and and you know You love the notion that There's a song called Any Song on on the first record um and loved it because I had more than one person say, wow, that's about me and my dad. That's what it must to be about. And I'm like, no, that wasn't my dad in any song. so but it But it is to you, right? Like, i don't I don't want to steer it away from what it is. It's definitely a cash reference in there. Yeah, maybe that's something about the 309, right? The 309. So I lost my dad about two years ago.
00:30:26
Speaker
Um, right about the time we were ready to start, I was ready to start writing again, uh, for this record. And I, and I ended up being, yeah ah he was, he was, uh, you know, my best friend and as well as my father. and And this ended up being one of those times in your life where like, here's another song about my dad. Here's another song about my dad. And here's another song about my dad. Um,
00:30:49
Speaker
So stranger friend, um ah dad was ah he was a physician and a scientist. And um again, meaning no disrespect to to to anyone that's elsewhere on the scale. But there was there was no tolerance of the woo-woo with this guy. ah you know He was a scientist. And my mom was in rehab um after breaking a hip. And my dad was staying alone at the house. And his health was failing.
00:31:16
Speaker
And it was the first night I had ah not stayed at the house with him overnight on the couch. I had come back down to Bloomington. They were up in Indianapolis. And I woke up in the morning, I'm sure, at 6 AM or something, and jumped right out of bed and got in the car and thought, that's the dumbest thing I've ever done. I needed to stay up there last night. What was I thinking? And raced up there and came in the door. And he was climbing out of bed. And I said, how did you sleep? And the physician scientist looked at me and said, I saw a ghost.
00:31:47
Speaker
And I wanted to say, you're messing with me. This is not a guy who sees a ghost. I said, what was he doing? And he turns and makes the running pose. He said he was right there on the wall. He was running. And I said, maybe it was death. And you scared him away.
00:33:10
Speaker
Or did you lean in closely, and whisper in his ear?
00:33:25
Speaker
Sadly, he didn't make it to hear the song. But that's directly to my dad. Did you see a stranger? Did you see a friend? Did he punch your ticket to the end? yeah Who did you see there? um ah picture The picture that's out there on the single release for Stranger Friend, he drew. Oh, that's cool. yeah he was ah He dabbled in all kinds of things. And at at the end, he was frustrated because there wasn't much he could do. And I took my iPad up one day with ah ah The apple pencil and I put it in his lap and I said try this you can draw with this and you don't need anything else And he sketched out that face. I'm gonna hand it back to me. like na yeah that thing yeah um and and I put it away and forgot about it And I was looking for some cover art and going through things and I thought there it is He he drew it right so it was it was a
00:34:15
Speaker
He didn't draw that, claiming that to be that what he saw on the ghost that night. But but it was ah it was a close enough fit that yeah that of like cover. art is That's amazing. And it's ah it's a good song, too, as well. I love what you've done where you've got a really good contrast between the verse and the chorus. With that one, the chorus just completely sings when you get there. So I think a really, really well-crafted song. I appreciate you saying that. it's it's ah i am ah I can be very modal, I think, sometimes. And one sometimes I count on Robin Keith and the band to help me give some texture to really pull a difference apart between the verse and the chorus, um which is a very nice way of saying, if you just hear me alone with the guitar on the demo, ah ah the choruses and the verses aren't as distinct as they are sometimes when you can put the whole band together. in there Yeah, for sure. So yeah, so you know I'm glad to hear you say that.
00:35:12
Speaker
So I'm going to jump back a little bit here. we kind of We kind of just dove in and started talking about your name and and kind of and organically went from there. But i typically the way that I usually start these is I like to kind of put people on the spot a little bit. And with the basic pursuit, you know the the the general question that this particular podcast is trying to ask how do you write a song so Oh daddy, Mark Need, how do you write a song? This is gonna sound, it's gonna sound very woo woo, apologies to dad. But but um sometimes you I'll wake up, I listen to music all the time. I literally wake up in the morning and turn on and we put on the Sonos as we're making coffee and there's music until I walk out the door and I'm one of these guys that deliberately chooses what I listen to in the truck until I get to the office and then listen to music at the office and then on the way home and then again until we go to bed and sometimes while it's playing.
00:36:07
Speaker
Which means there's always something playing in my head that I've been listening to too much. Whatever the current thing that I'm completely in love with and can't wait to tell everybody else that they have to listen to it is looping in my head yeah at that moment. ah And the songwriting process for me has been waking up sometimes in the middle of the night, lots of times first thing in the morning with a little hook or a little snippet and in my mind that's more complete in my mind than than it could ever be with me alone on the guitar and sort of being in that fuzzy in between moment and then tuning in and having that delightful moment where you think
00:36:49
Speaker
This isn't anybody else's. This isn't, um' i'm not I'm not playing this loop in my brain or humming or singing along to anything that's familiar to me at all. um and And we've all done it where you do that and then when you finally play it or play it for somebody else, they say, yeah, that's. ah That's that Coldplay song that you won't admit to anybody you've been listening to in the cars so many times. but um But if you have that moment, I think the kernel of so many of these songs were that, like being in a space where my brain turned off from whatever's happening enough in the day that something creative evolved out of ah what was going on in my mind there. And then when I tuned into it, realized
00:37:33
Speaker
That's not anybody else's. That's just mine. I don't know if I can make it come out of my head. And you know I'll tell the same story. Maybe you could tell the same story too, Tim, because I hear so many songwriters say this. I have hundreds of the most annoying voice memos on my telephone that I'm sure at the time sounded like one of those great moments in my head.
00:37:58
Speaker
yeah but you know whoever can come up with a solution to get the thing that's in your head out yeah onto the voice memo, there they win the internet, right as far as I'm concerned. Because I have hundreds of voice memos that I'm sure sounded like something fucking brilliant in my head. And even a day later, I go, ah then it kind of goes o then it kind of goes ah na na and then it kind of goes, yeah no and What is that? So if you're lucky, one out of, I don't know what, 10 of those things gets a little bit of legs under it.
00:38:37
Speaker
ah And then at the same time, maybe there's a phrase I'm catching somewhere and and and and and build it in and build from there. But usually starts on the music side. I also, one of these guys that carries a notebook around and catches interesting phrases, yeah say people say things. I'm like, ah. That's a sound title. Yeah, I'm taking that. Yeah. That is mine now. um But it it starts with the music, for sure. ah Very interested in writing in a different way. you know I'll put you on the spot while we're while we're sitting here.
00:39:09
Speaker
uh, digitally face to face. But, but you know, I would love for somebody to send me a something, um, and try and write in the other direction. I would love for somebody to send me a song that doesn't have a melody or a lyric to it yet, but has some completeness to it and try to write over the top because I know actually we, we traded a few texts in that know year or two ago about that very idea. And i think I've not done a lot of co-writing, and I actually had one earmarked. I'm like, I'm gonna send this to Mark. And then I got like i got like super self-conscious. I'm like, I don't know. I've never done the co-writing thing. and I think it has more to do with me than anything, but I might i might take it up on that. I might dig up that old song, and and it has it has it has ah it has a verse and a lyric, and it has a verse and and a start of a chorus, but it doesn't have the rest. So that might be that might be a fun.
00:40:00
Speaker
I love that. A little exercise to try. I love that. and and And I'm not saying that I'm great at this part of it. I'm just kind of reflecting that back on you. Like vulnerability is is what it is, right? I mean, that's the same as the moment that you wake up and go, well, there it is. It's out there for anybody to hear now, that thing that's in my head, right? So so sharing it with me, for every one that you share with me, I'll send you 10 of my voice memos of me going, wo and and then then we'll be even at that point. But no, all kidding aside, i would I'm just, I'm definitely in a cow path. I mean, at this point I will write the beginning of a song. You have that feeling like, okay, there's something here, this one. This feel has that feeling that I can build on it. I'm already, you know, a couple, three records in having those moments where I'm like, wait a second. yeah This is the same as that other song. Yeah, I've done this one before, right? so
00:40:53
Speaker
So I'm looking for anything to sort of shake it up a little bit and try to write in a different direction. so Yeah. Nice. I've talked about this on on several episodes, basically because I really like this as a process to get to the good songs. I don't think there's a way, and there's not a way that I know of, to get around the ratio that you're talking about. You know you have to write 10 songs to get one good one or or whatever that ratio is, 100 to one or whatever the whatever the number is.
00:41:20
Speaker
I think you have to pay that piper. um But a way ah way that I found that really works well for me, and most of the songs from my 2019 record came from, and a couple new songs came from a new version of this, but anyway, it's called it's something called The Game or whatever. And I learned about it from this guy named Bob Schneider. You probably know that artist. You might have even heard of this game, um where he sends out a topic or a phrase to his, you know, collective group of songwriters on friday and so
00:41:50
Speaker
i need a song back from you with this in it next friday or you don't get the next prompt. So there's a deadline. There's some vague idea that you have to write to. any what What I find is that as vague as that thing is, you you you end up writing about what you're going to write about anyway. It's just a kind of little spark that you need, or at least I need to get to get going. A pretty good group started by a couple of friends of mine here in Bloomington now. They call them call it the ah the Cosmic Songwriters Club, but very similar to to the game that you're that you're speaking of.
00:42:24
Speaker
We tried that we threw out a phrase at one of the guys in the club ah flipped his bullet journal open and he just kind of randomly picked a phrase and he said it was like. Thanks a lot, Hollywood. I can't remember what it was. And we said, everybody go away. We got six songs. Three of them were played one night at at at Cosmic here in town. And it's so much fun because that phrase only meant one thing to me in the song that that I wrote. We had six songs and they were six completely different songs. Like a completely different takes on literally a three word phrase.
00:42:57
Speaker
completely different takes. It was ah a great exercise in that regard. so Yeah. No, I love that. um The other thing it does for me too is it it gives me that express permission to, I just need to get it done. So so many times I get stuck on, i have ah I have an idea for the chorus and I have a really great first verse and then yeah I have second verse syndrome like you wouldn't believe where I have, my logic is filled with years and years of songs.
00:43:27
Speaker
verse, chorus, the end. So what what this thing does is i know i have a deadline i know i have to i have to show up for someone have finished song and it just just getting me over that hump and like pushing me that next Dude, write the second verse, dude. Just get it done. It doesn't matter. It can suck. That's okay. And then what you learn is you edit from there. As long as you have, you have your, you know, you got to look the clay first and then you can shape it. But if you don't have the clay, there's nothing to shape, right? So it's back to your point too, which is if whatever your, whatever your own ratio is, if it's 10 to one or
00:44:03
Speaker
probably 50 to one with me, but if it's 10 to one, ah then then there's one more, right? exactly it's It's a process. You're still exercising that muscle. you know This would have been 2003 or 2004. I was at South by Southwest on South Congress ah rambling back and forth between a couple of different showcases.
Closing Thoughts and Upcoming Projects
00:44:25
Speaker
I don't know if you're a Peter Case fan or not, but I saw Peter i saw peter Case set and I loved Peter Case and I went up and talked to him about the songwriting process. and to your point about the the ratio i said you know do you have any words of advice clearly i was thinking about that writing back then he said yeah right yeah you know right right the songs just keep writing the songs it's as simple as that i mean it's almost like a muscle just just gotta to keep doing it just exercise that thing
00:44:50
Speaker
You want to write a song, you know the difference between not being a songwriter and being a songwriter is writing songs. Yeah, to write write the songs and get them out there. So yeah, well, we are ah fast approaching the end of our hour here. But um I want to talk about Peacock's and you kind of already talked about it a little bit. But so Peacock's is the second single. It's just a fun kind of rompy.
00:45:12
Speaker
rock and roll song i was gonna ask you about this but you already told me it's you know it's at least to some degree it's stones inspired um and i love the little thing that you do in there where it's like do you even know who the stones are and then you do that little that little call and response or that's uh i'd love that moment it's such a fun little little touch let's tell me about that song we' thanks thanks for hearing that yeah um we were uh was this during the a recording session. Maybe we were in in Nashville for a different reason, but ah my friend and guitar player, extraordinary Keith, and I headed down to Nashville where rob bass player Rob lives now. and We decided to stay at a place called the Dive Motel, which is one of these um hipster motels, really a legit old East Nashville motel that they've poured a bunch of money in to bring it back. um
00:46:07
Speaker
What we didn't know about the dive motel was it wasn't a cool resurrected motel that happened to have a pool. It was a pool club that just happened to have a motel on it. And we had one of those beautiful moments where we realized that um we're twice the age of everyone in the place. um We were there on a Saturday afternoon.
00:46:31
Speaker
Kids lined up around the block um and Rob and I are sitting out looking out on the pool and you know shading our eyes from these these utes ah who are, as as I say in the description, half dressed and selfie obsessed floating around the pool and just feeling like, what did what did we do? why are Why are we here? We shouldn't be here. ah But it was awesome. And right in the middle of it after ah kind of getting a kick out of these kids floating in the pool and having a great time,
00:47:06
Speaker
comes a DJ remix of Miss You. And I think the cornerstone, the genesis of that record were were two things, just the general thought as as the kids are bouncing up and down in the pool to a a thumping version of Miss You was, do those kids even know who the Stones are? And really the genesis of the song was my friend Rob ah We're sitting there in silence and disbelief as they're snapping selfies all over the place. And he says, I think I can get away with my colorful language here on your podcast. Rob turns and says, man, look at the fucking peacocks. And that's one of those moments where you think, yep, here comes here comes a song. And it started leaning stones. And then at some point, you just got to give in to it.
00:48:54
Speaker
But the record really has a lot of my dad on it after his death, but somehow is a banger. It's still, the record is is largely, we wanted to make a record that was a roll down the windows in your car, 70s classic FM rock, turn up the stereo in your car and and let it roll, so. um You still have that record, by the way? I think, no. No, you don't. her go. We live out in the country now, so I i rock.
00:49:23
Speaker
out the windows of a truck now. It's kind of yeah it' an obligation out here. It's very indiana ah Indiana of you. So um so way what where you say you're you're in Bloomington in the country, or you're somewhere around? No, we're in Bloomington. We're in Unionville, technically, so out toward Lake Lemon, just south of Lake Lemon, far enough to be out of town. We're not on the lake, but we're on a couple of acres here, a pond, a couple of dogs. You heard me wrestle out wrestle out of the room here a few minutes ago. and that was our That was our COVID moment. Lived and downtown, had a place right downtown. ah My wife ran a restaurant right downtown. That was our life. And everybody had their sort of coming to Jesus moment during COVID. Ours was, what do you want the next 10 or 15 years to look like? And we bought a house out in the country and thought we would play country house, city house for a while. and
00:50:17
Speaker
I don't know that it's a positive reflection on me, Tim, because it it it it might what it might really be is a confession that I don't like people as much as I thought I did, because ah we're out here a lot. So we ah my my trips to town are surgical strikes now. Yeah. I mean, just, you know, dosage. You got to get the dosage right.
00:50:36
Speaker
Good for the creative juices though. It's quiet out here and we have a little studio across the driveway where we can draw and paint and make noise and play guitar. It sounds amazing. Yeah, it's great. Nice. And I don't entirely know what you do for your lawyer.
00:50:52
Speaker
I'm a law professor, so I've practiced for 32 years, and I've been at the law school starting my 19th year at the law school. I want to say that that those worlds are really separate from one another. um And again, i'm I'm sure over the years of of creative work, you've experienced the same. It's interesting how a creative process in one dimension or universe can suddenly help you solve a problem in another dimension or universe in a way that you never would have guessed or anticipated or even intended it to. So that's one of the really great byproducts for me is I work with startups. I work with young entrepreneurs and startups that are looking to scale businesses and meet all kinds of obstacles. And it's really interesting how your mind gets opened up by the creative process and how those can bleed back and forth to one another for sure.
00:51:50
Speaker
and I don't say back and forth. Probably be the most boring songs in the world if I tried to write songs about the about the law side of my life. but but But the creative process on the song side could sure help the law side. so Well, Mark, this has been really fun. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate your time. stay Stay tuned. We'll have a couple more singles and then Songs of the Siren Wires will be in its entirety probably mid to late October in there somewhere. and then ah And then the off season, a little four song EP somewhere in November as well. And Tim, I've really, really enjoyed listening, especially to your latest record. I spent some time with it here in the past week again too. So thanks for including me and thanks to you for for making music, man, for for keeping the creative process going. Absolutely. Likewise.
00:52:38
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Willsbox Songpod. You've made it this far. Please break, for review, like, love, add, subscribe, do all the things on whatever app it is that you're hearing in my voice. That lets the almighty algorithm know that interesting people like you like this show and will serve it up to other cool and interesting people.