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Rick Wormeli Emphasizes Student Feedback
141 Plays2 years ago
Long time classroom teacher in both elementary and secondary levels, now author and teacher/principal trainer, author of Fair Isn't Always Equal, 2nd Edition, Summarization in any Subject, 2nd Edition, columnist, Differentiation: From Planning to Practice, among other titles, 'proudly a new Grandpa, and "chocolate pecan pie" fan club member
www.twitter.com/rickwormeli2
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Learner Centered Spaces podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning, sponsored by Mastery Portfolio. And I'm one of your hosts, Star Saxton. I'm another host, Emma Chapeta. And I'm Crystal Frommert. In each episode, we will bring you engaging conversations with a wide variety of educators, both in and out of the classroom.
00:00:30
Speaker
This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces for their students, schools, and districts, or education at large. So get ready to be inspired as we dive right into the conversation with today's guests.
Meet Rick Wormley
00:00:57
Speaker
Today, we are talking with Rick Wormley, longtime classroom teacher in both elementary and secondary levels. Now author and teacher, principal trainer. Author affair isn't always equal. Second edition, summarization in any subject. Second edition, columnist differentiation from planning to practice among other titles. Probably a new grandpa and a chocolate pecan pie fan club member.
00:01:27
Speaker
It's so great to have you on with us today. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your role, location, some stuff about your journey, or some interesting facts?
Rick's Journey in Education
00:01:38
Speaker
There's nothing to see here. Let's move on. No, I'm located in the Washington DC area in Northern Virginia and was a teacher for about a quarter of a century in the classroom. And then I left the classroom to work with teachers and write articles and books. And the articles became a critical mass. And then I started writing books
00:01:55
Speaker
And now I continue around the nation and abroad, working with teachers and principals and superintendents on a variety of issues, mostly in the world of differentiation, equity, grading, assessment, the cognitive science applied to students, and then how do you respond to students who might learn a little differently, and cultivating teacher, educator, leader, creativity.
00:02:18
Speaker
Interesting fact, I have found three dead bodies in my life. And I was originally gonna try to be a doctor, but I ran into organic and inorganic chemistry in college and decided to get a life. So that's where, here I am today. Oh, I know the biggest thing. I'm a fairly nude in the last two years, grandpa. So I'm rocking that. We have two grandkids and I would love to spend all my time with them. Well, congratulations. That's so exciting for you and your family.
00:02:48
Speaker
And we are so grateful to have you and all of your varied experiences with us today.
What are Learner-Centered Spaces?
00:02:55
Speaker
And I guess what I'm curious about is what does a learner centered space look like, feel like, sound like to you? I'm sure you've experienced lots of them throughout your journey.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there are physical things like you can walk into a classroom and tell whether it's teacher-centered or learner-centered within moments. I mean, there are certain obvious things like the student work is up eye level for the students served in that classroom, not somewhere near the ceiling where nobody can read it or really appreciate it. And that artwork or that product, whatever the products are, is actually referenced during the lessons and reaffirmed.
00:03:32
Speaker
that the students' names are actually mentioned every single day, so they have proof that they exist. That the teacher spends an inordinate amount of time getting to know the kids, not because they want to hear stories that be entertained, but literally because it infuses everything they do, every interaction. For example, a student is not understanding something, so the teacher is well versed in metaphor and analogy genesis,
00:03:57
Speaker
and using that strategically in a lesson. So then they realize this student is not learning, let me draw from that student's background what I know about it and make an analogy comparing this new thing you're learning and kind of recoding it in terms of something they already understand. Oh look, an aha mini epiphany, they get it. When I see teachers
00:04:19
Speaker
very proactive in trying to get to know the kids as individuals, see them as fully dimensionalized, way more than just one more paper to mark, so to speak. Then I know that, ah, they realize it's about the student learning, not about the teacher presenting. So then when I see that they're fighting for the students to learn the material rather than to prove that they got through it or to document that the lesson was done or merely to document
00:04:46
Speaker
where the student falls, like in a false sense of accountability with things regarding some standard or some learner outcome. When I see the teacher is really focused on the learning regardless of the time it takes, maybe being gently insubordinate from time to time, that I know the teacher is really there for the in the service of the student.
Fostering Tenacity in Students
00:05:05
Speaker
Emma?
00:05:07
Speaker
Yeah. So before we spoke, you mentioned that you have a lot of experience in cultivating tenacity in both students and teachers. And I have noticed that when we really center our students, sometimes they're a little bit afraid because they have to do more of the work and it requires tenacity. So could you tell us a little bit more about that? Man, that's a dissertation and a half.
00:05:34
Speaker
I mean, we could go a lot of different directions there. But, you know, I'm a huge believer that the student does the majority of the analysis of his or her or their work against a standard, not a teacher bestowing from on high, you've landed here. You know, here's where you are along the continuum. I want the student to do the heavy lifting.
00:05:54
Speaker
And then the analysis of where do I need to go next, you know, as a result. So the world of that descriptive, timely, useful feedback really comes to play. But the idea of self-monitoring, and I own my learning, in that teachers speak in terms of decisions made, not in terms of quality, otherwise it's a slippery slope into assigning attribute. And we don't want to be doing that because that invokes ego, and am I in a safe place? Do I need to self-preserve?
00:06:18
Speaker
i mean when you talk to teachers and i say hey thank you for letting me observe your class i wonder if later today i could stop by and give you some feedback while the teachers are automatically getting defensive and feeling a bit threatened like oh no what is he going to say that sort of thing when it should be feed me see more feed me in other words how can i possibly do well without the feedback and it's a positive thing not something just to endure
00:06:42
Speaker
not something to feel threatened so i want the students to begin to own their learning and when they analyze their own work rather than having a judgment bestowed on it they're willing to follow through on it and it reminds me so much that hope is far more demanding than is despair so if i teach
00:07:02
Speaker
or an assess in such a way as to create hope and efficacy in the students, they're willing to persevere. But one of the other big issues is so many teachers falsely think that punitive grading is the way to teach or help that maturity evolve. It's not. We have to overtly teach, not leave to chance or some kid's developmental level, but overtly teach executive function skills. So how do I do my task analysis? How do I start projects?
00:07:31
Speaker
and maintain their little bits along the way in a timely manner. How do I remember things appropriately from home? All these different things that sometimes drive teachers nuts while they're not overtly teaching the skills. So if I perceive I have the skill set, I'm way more inclined to put my heart into the endeavor, but I'm not
00:07:49
Speaker
I'm going to accept this premise that you can't motivate anybody to do anything because motivation comes from within. But I can create an environment and give you the tools. And with the perception that you have tools, you're more likely to follow and do it. I can give you the tools in the environment where you're likely to invest in what's going on. So there's a lot to this tenacity thing, but just sitting there reprimanding or demanding from afar or wagging and admonishing finger
00:08:17
Speaker
it is a cop out it's a week teacher who does that and thinks oh look i've just taught the kid and help them mature it's how do i help the kid cultivate a sense of drive and agency of course voice and choice so my authentic narrative is a part of the learning table that has been set for me i see myself as having a role in here
00:08:39
Speaker
And the teacher is facilitating this journey as opposed to, well, the teacher's inherited narrative is the only thing that's important. And mine is subordinated in some way. There's lots and lots of ways to create the tenacity. And that's just a few. One last thing I'll just throw in there. We have a tsunami of anxiety, panic disorder and depression.
00:09:00
Speaker
And one of the signs of depression and anxiety is backing off and not doing stuff. I'd rather you thought I could do it, rather than give you proof I'm a fool or I'm an idiot and I can't do it, so to speak, and more and more kids, even kids who are academically very strong and well-resourced.
00:09:17
Speaker
are entering that world. So one of my first thoughts when a kid is not showing tenacity and perseverance is that this is kind of unnatural, because we're from birth, we're born to want to belong, be successful, try and do demanding things and belong and all these different things. And when that's presented as apathy or laziness or forgetfulness, there's probably some what's going on we have to address and then we can return back to the learning. Does that help? Yeah, that's perfect. I love how you made that strong connection between
00:09:47
Speaker
really, truly having a learner-centered space and cultivating tenacity at the same time. Yeah, yeah. I love your answer. It was beautiful. I want to shout it from the rooftops. And I'm going to bring it down to reality just a little bit here because you talked a lot about assessment and feedback and all of those things are what I want to do in my own classroom. But I think a lot of our listeners are probably in the same boat that I'm in
00:10:17
Speaker
that I teach in a school where we give traditional pencil and paper tests. We are required to report grades at the end of each grading period. So what would you say to teachers who are really jiving with what you're saying and really want to build that efficacy with our students
00:10:37
Speaker
and that partnership with the feedback, but they still have to comply to some of the traditional expectations of a school. Oh, yeah.
Blending Assessments for Proficiency
00:10:45
Speaker
Well, the first thing is just because you can't do all of a principle or all of a vision or a mindset or a pedagogical approach doesn't mean you can't do some of it.
00:10:55
Speaker
And a lot of teachers are very conscientious, and they want to do all of it when they're the first two weeks, because they're very excited about it. And they can't do that, so they do none of it? Nah. So I'm going to ask all teachers who want to move this way for the next two or three years, try one idea per month, you know, wobble along, lower your professional expectations, grant yourself the forgiveness, the grace to kind of move that forward just a little bit as you can. And you can do things in the microcosm of your class that you can translate into the school district's language so you can keep your job.
00:11:25
Speaker
So for example, I want to be very evidence driven, right? Criterion referenced. I don't want to be norm referenced. So on all of my rubrics, all of my grading skills, whatever I'm going to use, I'm never going to say, well, he was above average or below average, because that's how you're doing in relation to classmates. I want to know, can you write a paragraph? You know, do you understand the parts of a plant? You know, do you understand a sense of rhetoric and you can analyze it in political speeches, whatever it might be. I want you to rally around the learning that's happening.
00:11:51
Speaker
So in the microcosm of the class, can I mix traditional assessments with non-traditional assessments, more innovative, creative, getting to the crux of it? Because not all traditional formats allow a learner to fully demonstrate what he or she or they understand and what they know.
00:12:08
Speaker
So if I have a kid who is a language barrier, maybe it's an English as a second language or something along those lines, or a learning disability, I have a moral obligation as a professional who's ethical in an ethical enterprise to change the format so I get an accurate report from the child. So yes, I can do the traditional things, but I can augment with non-traditional creative things. And quite often, the alternative assessments where students give you a proposal on how they might want to demonstrate mastery actually is far more
00:12:38
Speaker
It's deeper, it extends farther, it's more meaningful, and the kids remember it longer, which is ultimately the testimony for any teacher, any school, is what the kids carry forward, not what they once knew and then forgot. So if we have meaningful assessment and the students are doing the majority of the heavy lifting for that,
00:12:59
Speaker
rather than the teacher because it makes it very passive and I want to make it very active, then you're actually achieving your goal there as you want to move that forward. So I'm hoping that people would see that I can take these five out of these nine principles of a really good learner-centered classroom and I can work on those and do that right now. But then I can volunteer to be on the committee to revise assessment and grading in our school.
00:13:24
Speaker
What a lot of schools do, and I actually did this, is we created equivalency charts. So what we would do is we say, okay, whatever our general proficiency expectations for different levels of performance, great. And then if we present that as an ABCD F, if we present that as percentages, it presented as a 3.0 scale, 4.0 scale, or blue moons, green stars, the whole lucky charms.
00:13:47
Speaker
It doesn't matter because we just automatically assign that nonsense placeholder that means this particular evidence of proficiency. So we always rally around the proficiency first in evidence, then we figure out the symbol that the school district allows to report that. But one big issue there is if you haven't calibrated evidence with one another,
00:14:08
Speaker
You know, what does it mean to go from excellent or just almost excellent or developing early on or developing later on? And that becomes a problem and teachers are wildly varying and they can't tell parents, yeah, you can trust the grades, they have integrity until you've actually calibrated evidence with your subject like colleagues.
Creating Hope in Education
00:14:28
Speaker
Thank you. I think what you said for teachers who are in a traditional setting, that even little bits make a difference. We don't have to eat the whole pie. I love that. So thank you for mentioning that. OK. So Rick, one of the things, aside from really appreciating everything that you've said so far, because you really succinctly explained why those things are all very important.
00:14:58
Speaker
And the specificity as it pertains to assessment is also really helpful. I was having a conversation with Tom Schimmer earlier. Oh, he's great. I love everything he does and says. I know. Me too. It's pretty amazing just how assessment is one of those things that people on the outside oversimplify and it's just so much more complex than we really give it credit for.
00:15:25
Speaker
in all of its pieces. And I think when the grading conversation comes up, people want to do what's efficient and not what's necessarily effective. And I think that it really comes down to that when it comes to grading and assessment. What I would love to know a little bit more about right now, you just focused a lot on assessment.
00:15:50
Speaker
What advice or tips would you give to someone who wants to create a more learner-centered space in general? Well, kind of a bridge between the assessment and that learner-centered space is the idea that assessment should come under the umbrella of instruction, not the umbrella of gotcha accountability.
00:16:09
Speaker
And so if I see it as a way to gather data to inform instructional design and for the student to self monitor and own his or her or their learning, then we're really in a very, very effective space as we do that. But if I want to move towards the learner centered, I'm going to overtly teach the kids specific descriptive feedback techniques.
00:16:31
Speaker
and as Star has pointed out in her peer assessment books, they'll be able to give peer feedback books, I should say. They're gonna be able to give feedback to self, feedback to one another that's way beyond, yeah, it's good, I didn't see anything wrong.
00:16:45
Speaker
which is not helpful to anybody. So they're going to learn to be very specific and do it against particular criteria. And they're going to be able to frame it in such a way as to keep the conversation going rather than shutting it down. So for example, I'm having trouble finding evidence for your claim. Can you help me find it? Can you walk me through that? Where the student, let alone the teacher, begins to see themselves as not pronouncing a label, but becoming a coach for you to arrive at that point and that discovery yourself, which is kind of like Jim Knight, Instructional Coaching 101.
00:17:15
Speaker
that I'm not going to tell you where you went wrong in a ride. What I'm going to do is I'm going to ask questions for you to get there and make that discovery because then you'll own it and you're going to be able to move forward. But one of the biggest things in efficacy, which is ultimately what we want in passing through agency and then going into self-efficacy, is you not only know these things, you are empowered to change these things. So at any moment,
00:17:38
Speaker
A grade, for example, is a temporary position along a larger continuum. So given subsequent evidence and learning, that grade can improve down the road. I will not be beholden to a uniform timeline, which gets in the way of almost everything we're trying to do. If we were hired to teach so that kids learn, we would not have a uniform timeline. And we would not say, well, in seventh grade, you learn this, and in eighth grade, you learn this.
00:18:02
Speaker
We would say here's this body of knowledge that seems developmentally appropriate here, but if it takes you two years, that's great. So e-portfolios, digital portfolios that follow you, here's your science portfolio through high school, or your PE portfolio through middle school, or whatever it might be, and whatever summer or year you are, and you come to maturity in that area and you get it, we give you credit for that. There's lots and lots of ways to do that, but if you want students to own it, they have to have the tools for the analysis,
00:18:30
Speaker
And they have to be empowered to be allowed to work on that and change their situation in relation to a standard. Again, it comes down to the hope. And the kids who have a teacher who really in jaunders hope at every possible turn are going to go, all right, I might go for it because there's hope that I'm not going to be mired in my current situation or my mediocrity.
00:18:50
Speaker
I can transcend my current position is huge. But the idea that grading, which remember is not assessment and so many teachers confuse us to, grading is a report and the best a grade can be is a summative judgment as of one arbitrary calendar date imposed on the next generation of humans.
00:19:10
Speaker
And it's a very artificial thing. So I'm just wondering if people can keep those separated. Suddenly the doors blast open. The hinges break off when it comes to student learning, student centered. Grades tend to be from on high and not real helpful in the longer run. We still have to communicate.
Encouraging Self-Monitoring in Students
00:19:29
Speaker
I mean grades are about communication, absolutely. And we have to remove all those things that would impugn the integrity of a grade report.
00:19:36
Speaker
And there's so much of that we can go into in another time. But for right now, if I see assessment is about instruction as opposed to accountability and grades about reporting, suddenly there's opportunity for the student-centered or learner-centered classroom. Absolutely. I think we all kind of need to keep that as a mantra that grading does not equal assessment. And if we can really center assessment as under that instructional umbrella, as you said, that will be
00:20:05
Speaker
uh, putting the students at the center and giving them a lot more voice and choice. So thank you so much for that. And yeah, a litmus test teachers can use. I know I've used it is when a student says, how am I doing in here? That's a sign we haven't done our jobs.
00:20:24
Speaker
the idea that I overtly focus on students' self-monitoring. So if somebody comes to me and says, Rick, how are you helping students self-monitor where they are and they can explain it, I better hear about student-led conferences and the students analyzing their work against a valid criteria of a standard and saying, well, I'm here now. Here's what I need you to do to close the gap to get to the standard.
00:20:46
Speaker
All of that. So to what degree are we helping students self monitor would be that litmus test and no student should ever say or wonder how am I doing in this subject versus that subject.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree. There's such a big difference between a student asking like, did I do enough work versus can you give me feedback on my work? And I think that that gets at a similar sentiment. And that goes to the portfolios like I include this particular work in my portfolio. And here is my analysis of what it represents in terms of evidence and the criteria for evaluative
00:21:19
Speaker
you know, the final summative, a demonstration of mastery, if it's going to go for a grade. So portfolio assessments, student-led conferences, and then the descriptive feedback techniques are kind of a three-pronged approach to really make this happen in today's classrooms. Yeah. So for teachers who are starting to build up their three-pronged approach, you mentioned STARS books on peer feedback as one place that they can look
00:21:43
Speaker
And learn more. Do you have other people you'd like to shout out for those of us trying to improve? Well, there are lots and lots of books out there, but you know, one of the biggest gurus is Susan Brookheart I mean she's a go-to for like the research side of it and then there she has lots of examples and things in there So I'd highly recommend that you know visible learning but the one on feedback from John Hattie and I think it's Clark is the last name so CLA RKE and
00:22:12
Speaker
Would be another one, but I don't I forgot her name. It might be Susan might be Nancy I forgot But at any rate, those would be really really good start-off books with along with stars There are other books out there that are generally on assessment and grading and have really good tools to provide assessment like Rick Stiggins and Jan Shipoui and so many others so I I would go look at the professional library in any one school and see if there's any books on assessment grading all one of my favorites is Larry Ainsworth a I n
00:22:42
Speaker
like Nancy Ainsworth, because he talks a lot about formative assessment, like there's one called Common Formative Assessment 2.0, which is one of my favorite books out there that might be a good way to go. Oh, wait, there's another one, Connie. Oh, what's her last name? Star, do you know her name? Her first name's Connie, Connie Moss, I think it is. She has a wonderful book on assessment. And then any of the books out, you know, from Assessment Training Institute, which now is Solution Tree and other things,
00:23:11
Speaker
They're available out there, but there's also wonderful websites and you know online tutorials Take a look at it. See if there's something that really fits your classroom One thing I'd remind everybody listening is you can never take something as a template From one place and slide over and set it down and it works like perfectly in your situation You'll always have to tweak it for what is real and important for you and your students
00:23:37
Speaker
All such good stuff. Thank you so much.
Where to Find Rick Wormley Online
00:23:39
Speaker
I'm wondering, where would our listeners find you if they want to learn more about you and your work online? Well, there's always rickwarmly.com, which is my website and I'm in the middle of this summer revamping it, but it's there. You can get ahold of me, you know, by email, but there are other resources there. On Twitter, it's at rickwarmly2. There was at rickwarmly and it's still there, but that was hacked and the Twitter gods
00:24:03
Speaker
And myself, we can't get it back. So I'm so creative teaching the future of the world, I'm sure. I just added a 2. So at rickwarmly2 and then rickwarmly.com. And then rick, at rickwarmly.unmicrosoft.com is the email. I'm happy to answer emails as well. OK, great.
00:24:27
Speaker
This has been fabulous talking with you and I know our listeners are probably going to research and find out more about you and check out your books because we could talk for four hours about all of this. Yeah, let's do that. We'll have you back next time, Rick. We could dig deeply more into the grading conversation. I would love to do that, but we'll speak in sound bites for today. Sounds great.
00:24:55
Speaker
All right, well, thank you so much. Thank you, it's an honor. Thank you for learning with us today.
Podcast Conclusion
00:25:07
Speaker
We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. If you'd like any additional information from the show, check out the show notes. Learn more about Mastery Portfolio and how we support schools at masteryportfolio.com.
00:25:21
Speaker
You can follow us on Twitter at masteryforall and on LinkedIn on our mastery portfolio page. We'd love for you to engage with us. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or know someone who would be an inspiring guest, please fill out the survey found in the show notes. And we'd love your feedback. Please write a review on your favorite podcasting app.