Transcript
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Speaker: Use the link in the description to visit Zencastr.com. It has a built-in discount. Hello and welcome to Rest and Recreation, the Work-Life Balance podcast from Abbasida.
Speaker: I am your host, Michael Millward. Today I am talking to Anton Volney about permission to be powerful. As with every episode of Rest and Recreation, we will not be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Speaker: Hello Anton. How are you doing today? Good. Good, pleased to hear it. Whereabouts in the world are you? I'm in Rochester, New York. Oh, it's upstate New York? Oh yes, it's the best of both worlds. It has a big city feel, but a small town vibe as well. Great.
Speaker: Could you start by telling us a little bit about who Anton Balny is? I just ended 15-year career as ah as a copywriter for people like Tony Robbins and Neil Patel and um Ramit Sethi and a few other people.
Speaker: I just spent 15 years working with all of these different marketers and honing my skills at an elite level as a writer, as a copywriter. And now I'm writing my own ah newsletter, Permission to be Powerful, and as well, putting out a series of books that are ah in progress right now as well.
Speaker: I'm looking back and I was like, i was like wow, like this was such a cool career. I didn't know it would be such a wild time. Because I got into some of the most elite rooms in the marketing world and I got to learn from some of the best minds out there along with my own personal training and skill and developing my craft.
Speaker: When I got to the end, um Tony Robbins was my last big client. And i said, hey, this was a great run, but I really want to turn around and become a speaker of my own in my own right and and have so much to say, having had so many like wild and crazy experiences over the last 15 years that I really wanted to put myself out there.
Speaker: Great. What would be the unique part of what it is that you have to say? Well, the first unique thing, there's a a lot of principles I live by. But the first one, like if I have to just like really give you the shortcut, it's put yourself first.
Speaker: Sounds easy, but it was really the flight of my life figuring out how to do this. That's not how I was raised in a way. I'm thinking that the majority of people listening to this would be saying, that's not how my mama raised me. Yeah. Yeah. you It's putting yourself first has all sorts of negative connotations to it and your selfishness and all those sorts of things. But I suspect that you're suggesting putting yourself first is is something that is positive rather than self-centered and and has a negative impact on other people. Yes. Now, you know, I take for granted that I'm speaking from my vantage point and my vantage point isn't your vantage point or anyone else's, right? So yep what I'm saying might have a different flavor in your air than mine, but I spent a long time healing, growing, developing myself emotionally
Speaker: And a lot of time in therapy too. And I think I really only hit pay dirt. at At a minimum, this is sanctioned by my therapist, but like, you know, like this isn't just some idea, right? Like we have a lot, like you're not, you're only as good to help other people as you are in so far as you take care of yourself.
Speaker: Like a lot of people like to spend time focused on everybody else around them because it's a great excuse to avoid looking at what what needs to be looked at within their life. ah probably That's probably the majority of people.
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's an interesting point to sort of say that actually I'm too busy looking after other people, helping out in the community, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to actually examine what is wrong in my life or why it is that I'm not happy. So yes instead of dealing with the the things that are problems in our own lives, we try and solve other people's problems and that distracts us.
Speaker: from our own problems, which is in a way, a treating the symptoms rather than the cause of the problems in our life. We fill it by helping other people. Yes. Yeah. ah I suspect there are lots of people who, if they thought about it, could actually picture themselves in that type of situation.
Speaker: Yes. And it's not just the distraction. It's a disconnection, right? You know, like I was a kind of a person, i just like, there's a long lot of reasons I became this way. it's a long story, but like, you know, I became that kind of person where my first instinct was to think for other people.
Speaker: I'm very empathetic. So, um, it's very easy for me to start getting emotionally involved in other people, their problems. And it's my way of, let's say, trying to control my world, like the universe around me. It's not a healthy thing to do necessarily, but like, it's one of the ways in which I was trying to kind of control my world.
Speaker: It didn't come from a healthy place either. Like, like, like I wanted to help people because it came from this, this, this kind of like approval seeking place where like, I wanted other people to, to love me. So I, I serve them, right? Like I presented myself to them as someone who could always help them and solve the problems. And sometimes people really need to solve their own problems. They really do. Like sometimes that's the actual better solution. Yeah. Are you talking about romantic type of relationships here?
Speaker: I think any kind of relationship because I'm a copywriter of 15 years, direct response, copywriter. And if anyone doesn't know what that is, I'll just kind of explain it real quick. Please. A copywriter is basically a poet who specializes in writing ads.
Speaker: Right. Basically. I will go and basically step into Tony Robbins' shoes and write on his behalf. Okay. His marketing materials, his messaging, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: So about halfway into my career, i had a couple of big clients under my belt, but I was still a basically struggling to get by i woke up one day and i'm like this is this was like across the board this was my friends my relationships my clients i was like i am just enmeshed with everybody like i'm just like like my clients are calling me all hours of the day on the weekends you know like this it's just it's just like i'm just kind of like invested in everybody else's world right So you were writing for Anthony Robbins. So that means, you know, I can't imagine that you had anyone who was ah half good at their job. You must be a really good copywriter. As far as copywriting goes, I'm Agora trained. And in my industry, that's basically like saying I'm a Juilliard trained pianist or like a like a Navy SEAL or something. It's like most copywriters in my industry couldn't get hired at a place like that. and a lot of the best copywriters in the world
Speaker: are known to have come through Agora at some point in their career. Okay. That's part of what makes I find my career like really interesting is that like I got to the highest echelons of the career from the absolute bottom. I started on Upwork. Yeah, it was it was quite the experience, quite the journey.
Speaker: Yeah, and sounds like it was fun. um Some parts of it were fun, some parts of it were miserable, but you know what? Going through a hard time, and I'd say this is generally for like people in general, it's like sometimes you're going through the hard time and it's like,
Speaker: it makes the whole thing seem like it sucks in the moment. But looking back, I'm like, wow, like it was not glamorous on the way up. But if I had known this is where I was gonna end at the end of it, I would have probably had a much different outlook on on the journey itself, you know?
Speaker: Yes, I agree. I know what you mean. it' We never actually know where we're going to end up. We can have a plan. We can have objectives and targets, or we can call them all sorts of different things, but we can only control what we can control. The world has a way of saying, well, actually, yeah, but I'm going to play a game with you and we're going to take you off in a completely different direction. I've noticed that actually we're really bad at ah predicting the future. Like It's the point where you might as well not bother and entertain all of those future projections.
Speaker: Like no matter what you think in your head is going to happen, it's almost certainly not going to happen the way you think. It's almost certainly not. Yes. I'm a Buddhist, a Zen Buddhist. So this is part of a very big part of my my philosophy for sure.
Speaker: So you've got what copywriters would sort of think as a Rolls Royce level type type job working for Tony Robbins, who's got a reputation for doing things very well. And you're one of those people that are helping him do things very well.
Speaker: Yes. Why did you then decide to set up the blog Permission to be Powerful? What was the motivating factor for you? There's several ways to answer answer this question. On one level, this voice has been trying to break through and get like break through the earth and and get air. Like it's been trying to to to come up for years. If you go back, if I go back to my journals, like I've been thinking about creating a brand for myself for years and years and years.
Speaker: So on one level it came about because i was ripe and ready and matured. Like I had come to this place where I did my full hero's journey and I'd gotten the end and I had, I, you know, like I, I made it to Olympus yeah and I got the whole fire from the gods. Now im coming back down with my fire.
Speaker: Right. And I'm ready to to to say some things, you know, to be a copywriter of the kind of like level that I was at. I had to become a very different person than when I started.
Speaker: And that taught me many things. Just like for example, from on a professional level, at there's so much I could tell to to just the average person in terms of like, how to how to look at the game, how how the game is really played, right? like like that that's After about the 10 year mark in in my career, that's when I started to understand, ah, you know, like we, you know, you come into the workforce, you don't realize that you're dangerously naive, like dangerous. Like, it's just like, I look at, I i always, every single day, i have to remind myself, this late stage capitalism, okay? And in late stage capitalism, the rules are not the same. You think, they tell you work hard, they tell you, they tell you, um,
Speaker: You know, you'll get rewarded if you just kind of keep your head down. And that's not how the that's not how the game is played. Like, yes, hard work is important because you have to be great at your job to stand out. But like people don't reward you for hard work. Power is never given. It's taken. Like that's just like that's that's a core premise of my my blog and my paradigm in life right now. I suppose what you mean is that yeah you can be great at your job, yes but a large part of being great at your job is not just doing the job. It's managing all of the various different relationships that go with the job.
Speaker: When you said that when you start work, you don't realize how naive you are. You don't realize... how little you actually know. Yes. As someone who spent most of today talking about early careers with various different people, it's like that's one of the things that we miss. know, we don't accept, acknowledge, recognize that someone leaving education, whether that's As a teenager or someone after college university in their early 20s, without some any work experience, they don't realize how much they don't know and how really naive they are about how the world really works.
Speaker: Oh yes. I would actually go as far as saying you're a target. Like the, like any kid coming out of college is a massive, like you've already been targeted. Like the system has already been working you on levels. You don't even understand. And then you come in there with minimum leverage as a freelance copywriter over 15 years, I've had hundreds of clients and what that has done for me. It's like the average person, maybe changed jobs three, four times, whatever. I don't know how many, but like a few, but for me,
Speaker: I'm in somebody else's company every week, right? Like that's what it was like. So what that allowed me to do was really get a, like a real high level view of what it's like to work in like hundreds of different companies. And like seeing that, like every company has a different flavor, different culture.
Speaker: um different people tend to gravitate towards different environments. Yes, it is strange that, but you we can end up in the wrong environments. We know very quickly, I think, if we start in a new job and the environment isn't one that is compatible with us, with our values, we know that fairly quickly. Yes. The challenge then is to get out as quickly as we got in. Right. And sometimes I think we worry that, oh, if I leave too soon, it will look bad.
Speaker: Well, it only looks bad if you haven't got a good reason for leaving. This was just not the right place for me. And you can even have examples of why it wasn't the right place for you as well.
Speaker: But ah um I do believe that if the environment isn't right for you, you know. But the the difficult part is accepting it, that it's not right, that you've made a mistake taking a job that isn't going to be in the right environment for you. And then the worst thing to do, the worst mistake to make is not to do anything about it.
Speaker: Right. I would actually say when he started the the the call, um I spoke about putting yourself first as a great example of that. And what I mean is, you know, most people, they're in a job they hate, but they'll stay in the job.
Speaker: So i'll saying logically speaking, there's good reasons to want to keep your employment. But like, Understand that like you're abandoning yourself when you stay in a job that you hate for reasons that have but for other reasons, whether that be for your children or whatever. Right. Like one of the the big lessons I learned is that like look like the more I honor what I know in my head.
Speaker: and act in alignment with that. That's what I, see that's what I mean when I say putting myself first, it's not just being selfish all the time. It's I know what I know. So it's like, you're in this job, you hate it. Like you could be in a job for like decades and hate the crap out of the job, but never really get like the ignition to say, Hey, you know what? I actually have to live like this.
Speaker: i I could choose something else. Like, like a lot of people are stuck in that kind of foggy gray area where They're kind of miserable, but they don't really know what to do about it.
Speaker: it's It's almost like you need to know why you're miserable before you can do something about it. And acknowledging why you are miserable can be quite a difficult process to go through.
Speaker: Yes, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. And it's almost like, okay, this isn't working out. or It might have worked out last year, but things have changed. Nothing ever stays the same and it's no longer right. And part of that, I suppose, is that people don't recognize that they have changed as much as the job has changed. or that they have changed and the job, the people around them have not kept pace with them. So it's not necessarily always a bad thing. You can develop yourself out of a job.
Speaker: or or a relationship or a friendship. that that that That's something that I've actually gotten quite used to um in the last five years. I didn't fully understand this concept, but the more I leaned into healing myself emotionally, if I'm, for example, 20% more independent or a little bit more assertive or a little bit, you know, just like leaning into a more healthy direction, the people who benefit from you not being healthy. I used to be very easily manipulatable because all you had to do is make me feel a little bit guilty and you could basically have your way with me. But then one day I understood i don't need to be like this anymore.
Speaker: yeah I should explain there, Anton, that you're an American. Yes. Over here in the United Kingdom, the expression have your way with me might not have the same and interpretation as you might have for it in the United States. I'm hearing now.
Speaker: Funny, funny. Yes. But I know what you mean. um What you mean is that you would... Get away with whatever. Yeah, if you heard things that um made you feel as if you'd done something wrong, that is the best way to get you to feel that as if you have to do something. Yeah, well, it used to be. Right. One of the interesting things that that that I find interesting about me, you read about it in my blog a lot, and of course, when my book comes out, Helen Paradise, you read about it there too, is like I had to change a lot internally, like to become the elite copywriter. Like Tony Robbins talks about about this all the time. Success is really an inside job, right? Like, and and I can really affirm that like a lot of the times professionally, we think the solution to our problem is ah software or an app or a sneak or a morning routine. And it's like, no, a lot of the times the problem that you have
Speaker: is is much deeper than that. And until you fix the inner problem, you'll kind of stay stuck in wherever you're at right now. but but Like for me, i really needed to learn how to think clearly for myself, put myself first. And stand up for myself. Like I didn't understand these things.
Speaker: So without these kind of basic skills, I'd go into the world, the the world would kind of chew me up and spit me out and I'd get burnt out because I didn't have a safe enough system for keeping, you know, bad people and dynamics out of my life, you know?
Speaker: Well, you're making me think that we have, each and every one of us, if we had to make a list of our contacts in terms of family, friends, work, community, we would all be able to um identify the person who's always got an opinion even when they're not really entitled to it. The person who's always got to be better than you, the person who's always got to feel as if they they're a victim all the time. What you're saying is that part of being permission to be powerful is having permission to say that person may be a decent human being, but they're not actually serving me in terms of having a good relationship with them.
Speaker: Therefore, the kindest thing for both of us is to acknowledge that and say, thanks very much. Let's move on. Yes, i you know, the way I think about it, is i look at the world. and i didn't even know. I didn't even know. I just figured this out about myself, but I didn't like I was like this, but I did not know I was like this until I woke up to it, which was there's two types of people in the world, right?
Speaker: There are safe people. There are unsafe people. Where did I come up with this? I remember reading a book called Safe People, depending on which group you're in. I give you different treatment. Why?
Speaker: Because if you're a safe person, that assumes a lot, like in terms of how going treat you, how much generosity I can offer you, how much presence I will give you, how much reference and deference you might receive. But if you are someone who, for whatever reason, you can't you you cannot manage honoring my boundaries, then there's a different response, right? So how different, it depends on context, basically. And it does also depend on the person and what might happen. Now, I accidentally became a boundaries expert. I didn't plan on it. This was just like,
Speaker: part of my my journey spiritually i really needed to to learn this lesson so deeply and then i did and then i started writing about it and then everybody's like wow you really understand this stuff and i'm like oh well i didn't know it was that big of a deal but i forged through the fire this kind of approach to people the the thing is back in the day like before i had like this approach to life I was just kind of at the mercy of whoever was around me. And I had a lot of people around me who weren't necessarily good for me. They were actually draining me endlessly.
Speaker: Some of them were were we influencing my mental health and you know kind of like making me either very anxious or depressed because being around them was a very anxiety-inducing or depressing experience. I didn't understand people very well.
Speaker: Back in the day, i was much more naive and I had a lot of magical thinking, fairy tale notions about people love romance. I believed that relationships were about give and take and they should be, but a lot of the times they're not.
Speaker: right like A lot of the times, it's like you're carrying this whole thing on your back because you want them more than they want you. yeah People are not as logical and rational as like I thought. like You never know. like You think, hey, I'm here for you, you're here for me. But you know what? Some people are not like that. Some people are opportunists. Some people...
Speaker: Know nothing about balance whatsoever. Some people are stuck in like a psyche that they got arrested in when they were five Do we all look like we're adults, but we're not necessarily so right and because of that You have to be careful who you give your energy to because other people are some people are dangerous, right? Like emotionally, it's not like like in a like they'll rob you sense but like in a sense that being around them is hurtful to your well-being, if that makes sense.
Speaker: It does make sense, ah but I'm slightly in disagreement with you about this sense that it's not like they're going to rob you or anything. Yes, absolutely. I think you can be robbed of non-physical things.
Speaker: You can be robbed of your emotion. You can be robbed of your trust. You can be robbed ah of your confidence in other people by the way in which people treat you. Yes, and and your your dignity sometimes too.
Speaker: Very much so, yes. Everyone has probably felt at times that their dignity has been abused yes by people in the way in which they have been treated. And it's not necessarily that the person who they think has robbed them of their dignity has actually set out to do it. But their mindset is that their behavior is all right. It's okay. It's acceptable. but they aren't aware of the impact that that behavior has had on other people.
Speaker: and Looking at the blog, Permission to be Powerful, and what you're saying now, I'm sort of thinking that the real big lesson that we have to learn is what does powerful look like from our perspective?
Speaker: Because if we get it wrong, we're a bully. But if we get it right, we're someone that will probably attract lots of people. Because when you mention boundaries, you mention a boundary about what it is that you will do, what it is that you won't do. And you reminded me of a friend who's a Christian and they have a teenage daughter who's into all sorts of various different music. So she goes off to these concerts and I said to her her father, my friend, you know, are you not worried? And he said, worried about what?
Speaker: as Well, what the people that she might bump into and be under pressure from at these types of events. He said, no, I'm not worried at all. Why should I be worried? I've given her the values. I mean, that she understands the boundaries. She can understand who is a decent person, who isn't a decent person.
Speaker: yeah She always knows that you all she needs to do is call me and I'll come and pick her up. That's what you made me think of. It's like permission to be powerful is to define how we want to live and say no to people who want to distract us from what we have decided is the way in which we want to live. That is a pretty great...
Speaker: synopsis definitely. I love that actually. erd Anton, I listen and I learn. Yes, it's it's been a little bit tricky defining what what I mean by power. You're not talking about power in terms of having power over other people.
Speaker: You're talking about power in the sense of being able to assert yourself in situations where you need to in order to protect your integrity.
Speaker: Yes. And I would say even beyond that, it would be finding your voice, generally speaking. So often, yes you know, one of the things that I am at this point is ah is an expert in communication, right? And it's a beautiful skill to to be an expert. And I love that is this is my suit superpower.
Speaker: So often in life, I want to say the thing that's going to get me the thing, but I can't say it. I can't find the words. feeling small and in the moment. It'll come to me 30 minutes later, right? After the fact, like in these make or break moments, to me, finding my power has come down to finding ways to speak so that people hear the words coming out of my mouth. And sometimes people don't do that. Sometimes People treat the words coming out of my mouth like they're not very important, like they don't carry much weight. So the difference between saying a no that gets heard and saying a no that gets cast aside and dismissed, it's not about controlling other people you write. Like a lot of people read my my stuff. I had this one girl and she she read my stuff and and she got me on a call and she's like,
Speaker: You've made me cry like four times. And the reason why is because it's like I have this way of writing just like between my agora copywriting skills and like all of the psychology I've been studying for so long. It's I put it all together. It's like it shakes something loose in you. It helps you see the world differently and it helps you recognize that you have so much more agency in any given situation than you might have previously considered.
Speaker: Right. So I think those are some themes that come across pretty consistently in in most of the stuff that are right. Yes. And of course, all of that is available on on your blog. The blog is www.antonvonley.com.
Speaker: And yes, the the newsletter is called Permission to be Powerful. That's great. But for today, Anton, I've really enjoyed our conversation and I've learned a lot. Yes. I appreciate the feedback. And like say, I've been listening and learning and I do appreciate the time that you spent with me today. So thank you very much. Thank you.
Speaker: I am Michael Millward. In this episode of Rest and Recreation, I have been having a conversation with the inspirational copywriter Anton Volny. At Rest and Recreation, we believe in healthy living. An important part of being healthy is knowing the risks early. That is why we recommend the health assessments from York Test, especially the annual health test.
Speaker: The annual health test from York Test provides an assessment of 39 different health markers. The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. And hospital standard tests are carried out in a UK AS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory You can access easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime by your secure personal wellness hub account. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
Speaker: I'm sure you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of Rest and Recreation as much as Anton and I have enjoyed making it. So please give it a like and download it so you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe.
Speaker: Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of Rest and Recreation, thank you for listening and goodbye.
