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S01E02: Hello dear, a podcast about crucial conversations
507 Plays1 year ago
Join Gabriel and Jenifer in an authentic conversation about their ongoing 25-year relationship. Based on the Gottman approach to relationships, this week, we're talking about crucial conversations. Also:
- The Mighty Mighty Bosstones
- Blind Jeans and Jesus Pants
- Healing generational trauma
- Transformative Experiences
- Bonnaroo
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Background
00:00:01
Speaker
There we go. We're up and running. All right. So this is episode two. And if we make an episode three, we will have officially tied the longevity record for any podcast we ever created together. The ones that we recorded and then didn't finish recording for a lot of reasons, mostly my phone.
00:00:30
Speaker
It's it's fine. So we're almost we're almost a big big big deal. So yeah, there's that. Well, I think it helps that we have a topic that isn't the sole brainchild of one. It's something both participated in. So I think that helps.
00:01:01
Speaker
This is Hello, Dear, a conversation podcast about conversations. Hello, dear. Hello, dear. This is a podcast
00:01:30
Speaker
Hosted by Jennifer and myself, I'm Gabriel. And this podcast is a series of honest and authentic conversations about, about many things. This week, I thought it would be about essential conversations.
Exploring Essential Conversations
00:01:44
Speaker
Oh, like trusting commitment, the first date.
00:01:48
Speaker
Yep, sort of, but also, you know, since we are so rooted in the Gottman method as part of, you know, our conversational framework, I thought it would make sense to just jump in directly to our book, Eight Dates, Essential Conversations, for a lifetime of love by introducing the idea of
00:02:14
Speaker
Well, their first chapter really, which is the conversations that matter chapter, if only because I think the idea of crucial conversations has always been something I've been kind of interested in. The idea that sometimes you look over your shoulder, you look left, you look right, and the next thing you know, you're having a conversation that
00:02:34
Speaker
is going to have some significance, not only between one another, but like in your experience. It used to happen a lot at work where you'd be like having a conversation, you're like, oh God, this just became a very crucial conversation, a conversation that matters. And I don't know that we treat them that way, but I don't know that we, I think if you bring these conversational
00:02:59
Speaker
skills outlined in this method, like I can improve conversations tenfold in every regard. You want to know something ridiculous? The first time I ever heard of the concept of like a crucial or essential conversation or a deep conversation was in Anne Rice's interview with a vampire.
00:03:28
Speaker
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that. Oh man, that's embarrassing, but they called it a grand conversation. Like these conversations that like set and they become a set point and also a turning point for a relationship.
Managing Conflicts in Relationships
00:03:46
Speaker
Cause really.
00:03:47
Speaker
That whole series is just about relationships. That's what it's about. Yeah, a relationship over a huge period of time, right? Yeah, centuries, millennia. Well, but I guess that makes sense.
00:04:08
Speaker
Well, and it's funny you bring up Anne Rice because, you know, eight dates suggests starts the whole bit off. In fact, with the phrase, and I'll quote it just real quick. Every great love story is a never ending conversation from the first tentative questions we ask as we get to know one another to the nail biting discussions of trust and commitment to the, are you going to work on Wednesday? I made up that last part.
00:04:38
Speaker
What do you mean am I going to work? Go to work every Wednesday. Well, not you specifically, you second person who's reading here. I was kind of vamping on that idea that you're like, not only is it a love story, but it's also like a crucial conversation between you and your boss, which is anything but a love story, but might benefit from, you know, some intentional conflict management.
00:05:06
Speaker
Uh, yes, yes. Oh, all the management training. Well, although I will say one of the things that I'd been thinking out, thinking out loud about the last couple of weeks has been the importance of disagreement. And it's, it can't, it can be an entryway into a very important, healthy discussion.
00:05:37
Speaker
Or it can be a screw you, I'm not talking to you anymore kind of thing. And like when we talk about turning in inward or turning toward each other, I think turning toward each other when there's conflict is really vital when you're trying to
00:06:02
Speaker
be with somebody for an extended period it could be a friend you know your kid your partner it doesn't matter like to be able to hold space with the discomfort of something and work towards if not resolution at least
00:06:23
Speaker
understanding. I mean, that's pretty powerful. That's pretty powerful stuff. And it's, you know, they talk about it in management as well, but it's so corny and kind of polluted with work culture. But there is a lot of validity to that. And one of the things that I think while we were going through this, this Gottman experience was that
00:06:50
Speaker
We turned toward each other pretty intensely to discuss conflict, but it wasn't our first time doing that. Like, and then before we even got married, you and I had marriage counseling, not like the weird stuff they do in churches where, you know, are you going to be the Jesus landscape?
00:07:13
Speaker
I am. I am going to be the Jesus pants. I'm going to put them on left leg and then right leg and then I'm going to Jesus pants right into McDonald's.
00:07:23
Speaker
I guess, and I'll be sewing and washing those pants, but whatever. I don't mean that. I'm sure there is really good spiritually-based marriage counseling, but anecdotally, I haven't seen it. I have, though, experienced that with you, and I remember sharing that with some friends around that time who thought it was bizarre.
00:07:50
Speaker
But you guys aren't divorcing. Well, of course not. We're trying to, you know, build a life together. We're not even married yet. But it was so shocking for people to consider that a healthy relationship would continue to seek out marriage counseling when they get, you know, like when you get stuck in the same argument over and over and over. Like it's not necessary.
00:08:20
Speaker
I mean, it doesn't mean that it's not necessary to argue. It is, it's essential to have disagreements and share that with each other. But an essential conversation can be born out of a conflict and it can result in something beautiful, good, or something that simply is, and you learn how to work with
Generational Trauma and Counseling
00:08:42
Speaker
that. You know, I think it's...
00:08:46
Speaker
I think it's one of those things where when you see folks who've been together a long time, there are people who cohabitate because it's easier to do that than to be alone. And then there are people who are in a friendship.
00:09:05
Speaker
And they want, they look forward to seeing each other. It's not just cohabitation. There's also the third variety, which I've seen from afar. I don't even know that I am particularly close with anyone like this, but where it's almost like a business relationship, right? You know, and I'm not saying one is better than the other, but like there are, you know, there's like, there's a lot of.
00:09:28
Speaker
I guess it's an evidence that there's something out there for every type of person who's looking for a partnership. But I can tell you that in our partnership, the idea of not going to a counselor is almost
00:09:48
Speaker
almost unthinkable to me in terms of if and when and when and if, we would come to a place where we just could not find agreement again and it wouldn't even be a question. And I think for a lot of people, that stigma of asking for help and putting themselves in front of, as I like to call my own counselor, in front of a very nice person who I pay $80 a month to tell me how smart and pretty I am,
00:10:17
Speaker
I think that doing that is super important and I don't know it's as easy for most people as it is for you and I, as it would be for, or at least I'll speak for myself, as it is for me with almost 25 years of experience.
00:10:32
Speaker
Well, I think that, I mean, first of all, I'll acknowledge the privilege we have in being able to do that, like that being an option. You know, a lot of folks I think may be interested in have couples counseling therapy, impartial third party, kind of like working with them to figure some things out, but can't afford it or don't have access.
00:10:57
Speaker
or don't even know where to start. I mean, so I'll acknowledge the privilege we have in that. I mean, kind of an inside thing, given the field of work that I'm in. But I think that the other part of it, you know, talking about the stigma related to couples coming together, I go back to that initial comment before we were even married of, Oh my God, are you guys splitting up? Like, no.
00:11:26
Speaker
No, the whole point was to continue to be together and to, I mean, this is kind of a trite thing now, but seriously, to heal generational trauma that occurs in relationship and in relationships of our families of origin.
00:11:46
Speaker
There isn't a lot of Looking back. I don't I don't have a lot of beautiful relationships to refer to to understand what a healthy Coupling is I don't and that's nobody's fault part of it's our culture part of it's just human beings, but Part of it is that I part of is that I can't help but giggle when you say the word coupling
00:12:18
Speaker
Could you say more about generational trauma? I mean, I wondered if you would give me a little bit more. Well, it's kind of a buzz phrase now. Everybody's talking about breaking family curses, breaking generational trauma.
00:12:40
Speaker
I think it gets a little misused, but I guess I'd rather that people talked about it than didn't like miss misuse it than the not use it at all. Because I mean, there's a lot of healing that has to occur in many families regardless of, you know.
00:12:57
Speaker
the socioeconomic status, ethnicity, race, you know, like location, like where families came from. I mean, I'm sure there are some folks in this world that have really healthy, beautiful relationships to look
00:13:17
Speaker
back on between loved ones and, you know, that's really great. I mean, that's awesome. But for a lot of us, that's just not the case. I mean, I have a, I come from a divorced parents and a lot of conflict and secrecy on both sides of that family and unhealthy relationships. And is it because the people in those relationships are terrible, bad people?
00:13:46
Speaker
No, not at all. I mean, I'm sure there's a couple of jerks in there, but it was, it just simply was. That's just what happened when these people got together. Domestic violence, drunking, drugs, abuse. The worm. Yeah, the worm. All kinds of stuff.
00:14:05
Speaker
And so when we're talking about healing, generational trauma, it doesn't mean we go back with a mindset of blame. Like these people suck, I'm not going to suck, so I'm going to do better. It's more of, I recognize that I have the tools and resources to not recreate that, to make my life better, to make the life of my child better, to make the life of the people around me better.
00:14:34
Speaker
to me to make me better you know heal yourself heal the world and make sense you know that that i think is really really important because
00:14:50
Speaker
There is no shame in admitting that you have areas of growth that need to be addressed, that there are places where you may have learned things that aren't necessarily of benefit to you and that it's okay. It's okay to work on those things.
00:15:12
Speaker
And it, it, it does require a bit of vulnerability to be able to do that without going into blame. Well, I struggle with depression, anxiety, because my parents were dicks. Well, okay. As a parent, I'm sure my own kid could even see the nature of being a parent sometimes.
00:15:42
Speaker
Truth, truth be told, like dicks cause all of the anxiety in the world. Like if there weren't any dicks, like just so, so maybe we don't, what we don't need is anti-anxiety. We just need the don't be a dick to take calendar. Everybody's a dick at some point.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's inevitable, right? Like, I don't know that, like, I know that I am the poster child for foot and mouth disorder. And I can't, you know, wait for all the dicks to stand up and say, Hey, you're kind of a dick sometimes. And it's not even intentional.
00:16:21
Speaker
So, I mean, I guess it's non-volitional dickery. If we were to put it in clinical terms, it's non-volitional dickery. But with the non-volitional dickery of our parents and grandparents and our ancestors, you know,
00:16:40
Speaker
there's some healing that needs to be done. And moving away from blame of the choices and actions that they made is really important, in my opinion. It's just my opinion. And being able to move forward with your own healing doesn't mean like you don't acknowledge shitty things that happen to you or happen to people you love. It just means that at a certain point,
00:17:08
Speaker
the blaming doesn't allow you to move through. You don't have to forgive and forget. I would never say that to anybody, but being stuck in that blaming, I just don't think it serves a purpose.
Self-Awareness and Personal Growth
00:17:22
Speaker
If anything, it just keeps you going in that shame cycle, right? Yeah, shame cycle. Do you think
00:17:30
Speaker
I guess, again, I liked that you returned to this idea that, hey, check your privilege on that, because it seems to me that, you're right, it is a luxury that we can enjoy access to professional counseling. But I'm gonna push back a little bit on the idea that everybody can't have access to making a better choice.
00:17:57
Speaker
And it's always so fascinating to me when I watch people make destructive choices and I go to them and I say, you know, you could just not do that. And I think of our one friend who used to just stand there and say, you don't feel depressed, you don't want to be depressed anymore, then just don't be. And she put her hand in the air and she would say, don't be depressed. And I would be like, but I can't that you don't understand.
00:18:24
Speaker
But like, actually, part of it is that you have to allow for the possibility that you can, right? And that's so hard and it causes, for that friend of ours, it caused no amount, no small amount of misunderstanding and hurt feelings on all sides. But like, it isn't from a place of non-empathy that I tell people when I see them struggling that they don't have to struggle.
00:18:56
Speaker
They can just choose not to. Well, that requires a foundation of self that not everyone has yet. Explain that more. If you are so lost that you don't even know who you are, how can you choose anything?
00:19:24
Speaker
So you could argue, oh, but you make little choices all the time, every day with what you do. Some folks are literally sleepwalking. They get up, they eat, sleep, poop, go to bed. That's it. That's what they know. You know, maybe there's addiction. Maybe there's not. Maybe their relationship issues.
00:19:52
Speaker
would say they probably are, but you know, they, they just don't have.
00:19:58
Speaker
a core sense of self or self-preservation to make choices and feel confident about it. Like with folks coming into trying to figure out how they can make choices that are better, I mean, the first choice is to acknowledge that you have the right to exist, that there is a human being of some value in there.
00:20:28
Speaker
Looking at, on the outside at this person might be easy to say something like, well, all human beings have value. But if a person has only ever experienced devaluing, it takes so many more experiences of being valued for them to believe that. Do you? Do you believe that? That was an argument we would just hang on a lot. Oh, I know. I think about it all the time.
00:20:57
Speaker
I think it's why I do what I do. I really do. That sense of self and ownership of your own life is such an important step, which is why, you know,
00:21:15
Speaker
I think I'm going to go a little bit sideways here. When talking with our daughter about her first year at college, like what that could be like, we've already given her a heads up that there are going to be kids there that have never had the opportunity
00:21:38
Speaker
To be themselves and make their own choices just never had that happen and they're gonna go bananas and It's gonna be binge drinking screwing anything that walks Skipping classes coming to it's just gonna be like really over-the-top
00:22:02
Speaker
My parents said no, so I'm going to say yes, shit, because they've never had the opportunity to truly think for themselves and make decisions for themselves. And now everyone who has either had a first job or went to college or spent any time with emerging adults
00:22:29
Speaker
Think back on those terms and those folks. And you know exactly what I'm talking about.
00:22:38
Speaker
So if you're from a culture where your body is not your own, you belong to your family and you know, that could be religious base. It could be ethnically based. It could be whatever that freedom to make decisions for yourself.
00:23:01
Speaker
doesn't feel like freedom. It's scary as hell. It's scary as hell. And so to individuate and to figure out who you are is really hard. Which is why, when our child decides to do really wackadoo stuff with appearance or decision making,
00:23:23
Speaker
It's cool. It's cool. Right. But her weird obsession with 90s era brand jeans is weird, right? We can all admit that's weird. And here's the part, like the hoarder in me, though, like is really disappointed. I did throw away those blind jeans that I had, like my one favorite pair of jeans. Gabriel, if they fall off of you, they dissolved at a Mighty Mighty Boss Stones concert in front of
00:23:57
Speaker
They didn't dissolve. You tore them off. I did not. You grabbed onto them.
00:24:04
Speaker
You went into a pit and came out in boxer shorts and a Kermit the Frog, Calvin Klein. Kermit Klein was a t-shirt. You came out, you came out boxer shorts and a Kermit Klein t-shirt and I said, God damn, that's mine. How did you make it arrested? Because you left that shoe in just underpants.
00:24:32
Speaker
No, I had a, I had a jeans belt. That's right. I didn't choose to get rid of those. I forgotten those pants had been, were forcibly removed from me. Yeah. You were, you, you, you gave it all. You gave, you gave them a very beautiful way
Challenges of Chronic Illness
00:24:49
Speaker
to go out. You know, they lived, she lived well, but the hoarder in you aside, client aside.
00:24:58
Speaker
Kermit Klein's still in the basement, by the way. Oh Jesus. I have that shirt. Gaia turned it down when she was raiding in her station. I think the yellow pit stains would do it, but I think we're probably still paying for it on that Kohl's card. Oh yeah, for sure. Oh my God. But in any case, so choosing not to be depressed, choosing to not have a shitty relationship
00:25:27
Speaker
It's not as simple as it sounds and at its heart it is. And, you know, there's a lot of work that can go into getting you there.
00:25:40
Speaker
And I think that's, that's what we were talking about. Some people are supported in doing that at a very young age. Some people don't come to that until much later in life. You know, as long as you're breathing, you have the opportunity to have experiences that may allow you to believe that that's true. And what I was going to say earlier is that the only way to kind of break
00:26:08
Speaker
break that I can't add depression and nothing will ever be better. I have anxiety, nothing will ever be better, is to have lived experiences that disprove that. Right. And that's sometimes an ordeal, right? Sometimes. When you get that argument of you deserve an ordeal. I've been having that conversation with some folks at work and except I've been framing it as this is an ordeal and like
00:26:34
Speaker
to, you know, turn that into wisdom. And they're just like, you're telling me a 15 year old to generate wisdom from how sad I am right now. And then my roommate across the hall, my other teacher friends snort at me because the kids are more right than I am. What's really gross game is that people know the truth of that and market it. Well, yeah.
00:27:04
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. A transformative music festival. Transformative yoga retreat. $10,000. No, you don't need to go outside of American culture to have an ordeal right now. You can just walk around and be a dude and you're having an ordeal. I think that's my point.
00:27:25
Speaker
For these kids, I'm not telling them to go out and, and, you know, go to Bonnaroo. I'm telling them, like, recognize the suffering you're having. What the hell is Bonnaroo? Bonnaroo? Really? Is it even a thing? Yeah. All right. I'm looking it up right now. And Bonnaroo music festival. What did you mean, human being, right? Yeah. Yeah. Walk around being a dude.
00:27:54
Speaker
I think that the greatest ordeal can be waking up every morning and doing what you got to do. Seriously, if you have chronic illness, shout out to my chronic illness folks, bitch, we're living the ordeal. This is, this is hard and are there learnings in it?
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah. When I like to get off the chronic illness wagon. Hell yeah. But that's just not going to happen. So, you know, you gotta learn, learn to learn to figure out other things to do, figure out how to do it.
00:28:42
Speaker
It's like the least favorite part of establishing was a new physician when you go in and you give him your list of, of like, here's what's broken on me. And yes, I am aware these are not repairable damage aside from consciousness transfer to my robot body. Yeah.
00:29:05
Speaker
Please, please, I understand the machine, the computer tells you, you have to assign a dietician to come yell at me about eating too much candy. But I assure you, I am not diabetic from eating too much candy. Okay, so we can just move past that step, please.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yes. My arthritis is not from his overuse. The spinal stenosis is in fact her auditory. So if you would like to go back to my cave ancestors and tell them to like knock it off. No, they'd still have it. And maybe you don't want to date that one.
00:29:49
Speaker
to me when I wouldn't be here. Well, that's just it. So really referencing back to our initial conversations about the families of origin and relationships you've grown up with, your ancestors aren't these perfected beings.
00:30:06
Speaker
They had, of all the words you've got, maybe more, maybe less, doesn't matter. They were human beings. They fucked up. They tried. Sometimes they succeeded. Sometimes they failed. More different than you and I. Sometimes when I hear people reference their ancestors, it makes them some like holy, sainted people. For Christ's sake, they are just like you and I.
00:30:30
Speaker
Some of them wanted to do better. Some of them just wanted to serve. It is what it is, you know? And so, as a human being alive today, now, we have choices that we can and can't make. And if
Seeking Help and Self-Improvement
00:30:47
Speaker
we aren't in a position of being able to trust we have the right to make these decisions, then
00:30:53
Speaker
There are opportunities to learn how you can give yourself that, but that's not something you should get from listening to Gabe and I ramble on and on about. There's lots of folks that you could talk to. I guess my hope would be that hearing over and over again that you have the right to seek out support and help is probably the most important takeaway from everything that we talk about today and probably always.
00:31:23
Speaker
You all have the right to find ways to feel better about yourself. Excellent. So that's about a half an hour, Jennifer. Okay. Would you like to know what I learned today? What did you learn today? Well, today I learned that we've been together for a long time, but we got nothing on the vampire Lestat.
00:31:52
Speaker
And also that the only perfect being in my life, the only holy, sainted people who make no mistakes and are beyond reproach are my dogs. Bobby.
Episode Reflections and Learnings
00:32:06
Speaker
Bobby's a saint. Bobby Roberts is a saint. He is the sweetest, most loving Shih Tzu Wawa I've ever met. You know what I learned? Manaru means something.
00:32:21
Speaker
There is a music festival in Tennessee called Bonnaroo. It is not an Australian porn. It's because that's what it sounds like. I just got a big bone around. That's right. I'm done. That's correct.
00:32:52
Speaker
Very nice.