Transcript
Speaker: Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John the host.
Speaker: Today we're welcoming on my good friend Sophia Medawar.
Speaker: Sophia lives and works in Chicago.
Speaker: She's worked in children's theater there doing teaching.
Speaker: She works at an art studio and a comedy club.
Speaker: has done some work in film.
Speaker: She really is kind of just a jack of all trades.
Speaker: If you know her, she's constantly jumping between different things, has her hands in a lot of projects.
Speaker: But we're inviting Sophia on to chat with us again about artists and the church, keeping that conversation going.
Speaker: So she's going to come at it from the perspective of an artist, from the perspective of somebody kind of in the trenches in artistic communities in Chicago.
Speaker: and sharing some of her own personal experience as somebody who's a deeply committed Christian and an artist and what her relationship with the church is.
Speaker: It's a really rich conversation.
Speaker: She says a lot of difficult things about the church, but things that I think are important for us to talk about and consider.
Speaker: And I think...
Speaker: We talk a lot about good redemptive aspects as well to things going on in her life and her relationship with the church and with fellow artists and fellow Christians.
Speaker: So I think it's a really great, rich discussion.
Speaker: I'm super excited to share it with you.
Speaker: Thank you guys for listening.
Speaker: So how are you doing today?
Speaker: I'm great.
Speaker: I'm really, really happy to be here.
Speaker: We've known each other for a pretty long time.
Speaker: So having these conversations, I'm just like, I'm really excited for it because we've had them over the years and just being able to sit down and like condense it into a conversation.
Speaker: I'm just really excited for it.
Speaker: It's going to be awesome.
Speaker: Can you share a little bit with the audience some of the different things that you do in Chicago?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because you have your hands in a lot of pies over there.
Speaker: I do.
Speaker: I have my hands in a lot of pies, which I really love and has always, I guess, kind of been pretty indicative of my personality.
Speaker: I, long story short, I've worked in film, theater, dance, visual arts, comedy.
Speaker: I work in a little bit of everything over here and I've kind of had seasons of what that looks like over the last five years or so.
Speaker: I started at the children's theater and I was managing and I was teaching and I was directing.
Speaker: I worked at an
Speaker: at another theater where I ran their youth musical theater division.
Speaker: I taught dance for two years, partner dance, and went into schools doing that, worked at the dance studio, and I work in an art studio now.
Speaker: I've been there in May.
Speaker: It will have been two years.
Speaker: Working at, yeah, Palette and Chisel is what it's called.
Speaker: And I work at a comedy club.
Speaker: I work at Zany's.
Speaker: I've been there over two years now.
Speaker: So there have kind of been seasons of coming and going.
Speaker: I haven't been, I was on a film set earlier this year, but prior to that, I hadn't been on set anywhere since I think May of 2022 or even 2021.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But that film was just released on Prime, Hulu, a couple different platforms.
Speaker: But that was the last kind of film thing I worked on.
Speaker: But no, I'm all over the place here.
Speaker: But right now, this season is comedy and visual art and piano.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: Are there any specific projects that you're working on right now that you're down to talk about or share any?
Speaker: Keep hitting my table.
Speaker: Camera keeps shaking.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm working on some writing projects right now.
Speaker: I'm actually going to Oxford in June on a writer's retreat with Jeff Goins and a couple other people that I'm really, really excited about.
Speaker: But what I'm focusing on with that is I'm working on a comedy television pilot.
Speaker: that should be really fun yeah it's incorporating a lot of the things that's uh kind of going on at zanies and um yeah i have a lot of local comedians that are working on it and um there's going to be a lot of opportunity for improv and stand up with it but i'm kind of i'm writing out the outline and we'll see how the pilot goes i'll have a couple episodes after that we're talking to a production company and it'll you know ideally ideally start independent and then maybe we'll get
Speaker: picked up somewhere but that's what I'm working on writing wise right now and I always have commissions coming in on a rolling basis I have my right behind my camera here I have my easel and I have a pet portrait I'm working on and I have this same person commissioned a portrait of him and his girlfriend so that's another thing I'm working on I'm playing for a gallery opening I'm playing piano for a gallery opening on Friday next Friday so yeah a couple couple things in the in the air right now but
Speaker: That's pretty typical for me.
Speaker: Yeah, true.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: What are some ways, either as you're working on art or taking in pieces of art, that you feel like God is using art in your life right now?
Speaker: God is, I read that, you sent me that question and I was, that was the one that I was like, man, I really don't know how to answer that.
Speaker: Just because art is the primary way that I feel like I experience God.
Speaker: And it's also, it's also really, I guess, frustrating because it's not always pleasant.
Speaker: I think right now, God is,
Speaker: God is talking to me through the art in my life and kind of like revealing a lot of the fear and insecurities that I have around art.
Speaker: And that's not a pleasant thing.
Speaker: in it but I do feel that that's one of the things that art does for us or that God does for us through art is if it's authentic and it's real then it's not always going to be a pleasant experience and yeah he's just he's been pointing out a lot of the things that I'm still like scared about or holding on to or trying to trying to make fit and like what I mean by making it fit is like when you create art
Speaker: to be sold or when you create art for a more capitalist purpose.
Speaker: That's one thing, but that's not the art that God calls me to make.
Speaker: I know I get stuck in that trap of like, shoot, how am I going to make money?
Speaker: How am I going to sell this?
Speaker: Am I going to be able to make
Speaker: Prince of this?
Speaker: Am I going to be in this art fair?
Speaker: Like, is this, is this going to get picked up by somebody?
Speaker: So when you just like get caught up in like the capitalism of art and it like really reveals a lot of like, am I good enough?
Speaker: And am I going to be able to like, like I have the ideas, but am I going to be able to execute it well enough?
Speaker: Are people going to like it?
Speaker: Like all of those things that at the end of the day don't really matter.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's really easy to get caught up in all of those things.
Speaker: And right now God's really like, he'll kind of put in pressure on the wound a little bit where he's like, it doesn't matter if nobody likes it.
Speaker: Like I'm telling you to do it.
Speaker: And because he's telling me to do it, it's the right thing to do.
Speaker: But just like those insecurities are so real and they're so painful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I feel like if you're doing art well, you're trying to reveal part of yourself.
Speaker: So it's like, I think every artist, when they're making something, always struggles with that to some degree of like, okay, I'm putting something of myself out there.
Speaker: So I feel like art is almost a rarer place to bring that to God and put that out there.
Speaker: Because you're opening yourself up to that, you know, like you're opening up
Speaker: like the space for that wound to be viewed or addressed by God in some way.
Speaker: So you're already kind of in like that vulnerable tense spot.
Speaker: So I feel like, I just feel like art is one of those places where you can step into those sensitivities really easily and God can really frequently reveal those things.
Speaker: If you're looking for it, obviously you can kind of just,
Speaker: mask it and plow through but and when you mask it and plow for plow through that's really like that to me just like represents the capitalism in our country in art and also in the church and I know we'll get to that in a sec but that's what you're saying is exactly like what I've been like struggling with um insofar as like being you know being creative and also being a Christian like it's
Speaker: There's a lot of tension there, especially in the vulnerability of wanting to lead a very fruitful spiritual life, but also lead a very vibrant life as a creative.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think...
Speaker: I think both as artists and as Christians, we very, at least I know I do this, where I have this image of John that I like want to be.
Speaker: And God's been like highlighting this a lot for me where it's like, there's this really cool version of John that's out there that
Speaker: I sometimes catch myself like trying to like groom and prepare like the john that is producing Godspell and is in Bible school going towards seminary and runs this cool podcast.
Speaker: It's like, okay, those are like the really neat, cool image things that I want to like put out there.
Speaker: And I feel like
Speaker: As artists, we're like, we want to do that because it's like, this is who I am as an artist, you know, and we want to communicate that either to like, sell what we're doing and sell our art in the sense of like, this is the kind of art that I do.
Speaker: This is my market.
Speaker: And to kind of like, give ourselves some like, identity and understanding of how we're navigating the artistic world.
Speaker: And then as Christians,
Speaker: we have that view of ourselves that's like always perfect and is always making the right decisions that are Christ-like that do reflect God.
Speaker: Sorry, I have to laugh.
Speaker: That's just like... We never do that.
Speaker: It's so silly.
Speaker: It's so impossible.
Speaker: But we're like, oh, I just know in this situation, if I was in it, I would do it differently.
Speaker: And that's not true.
Speaker: But I feel like a lot of times when we have those images, then we put the mask up and we're like, okay, I'm just going to fake it until I make it.
Speaker: But we do it to such a degree that we hamper our own development, either both as either a Christian or as an artist.
Speaker: I so resonate with that.
Speaker: And I feel like a lot of people do, but it's again, it's again, like not to bring it back to capitalism, but it is, it's like, we have this, it's your branding.
Speaker: It's you have this idea of who you are as an artist or who you are as a Christian and you like create this, but you're like, this is my box.
Speaker: I'm creating my box.
Speaker: This is how I want to present myself to the world, the secular world and the Christian world.
Speaker: You create your brand.
Speaker: And guess what that is?
Speaker: It's not authentic.
Speaker: It's not authentic because it's not living and breathing.
Speaker: And it's something that you're creating, exactly like what you're saying.
Speaker: It's a projection and living in that tension between like, oh, I need to make money.
Speaker: And I also want to strive to be this person that I do imagine myself being.
Speaker: Like that's important to me.
Speaker: But at the same time, how do I be open to,
Speaker: to like the movement of the Holy Spirit and just like be true to like myself in the moment and be present with myself and create very present, true, authentic art, but also stay true to my brand.
Speaker: Like it's like, there are so many contradictions.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm so hearing you.
Speaker: And I think, you know, there's like appropriate ways sometimes to like mask up, if you will, because there's sometimes where it's just like, like if I'm giving a curtain speech for a show, I don't necessarily need to go into, oh, and this is my personal problems also that you'll see reflected in the show.
Speaker: You know, you don't always need to open up.
Speaker: So I think there's, I think that's part of the tension too of like, okay, like there's a time for everything, like in Ecclesiastes type idea, right?
Speaker: Like sometimes,
Speaker: it's a good time to open ourselves up and be raw either for ourselves or for somebody else to see.
Speaker: Sometimes maybe we do just need to power through, but you don't want to, I don't think you always want to land on either or, because if you're always overly authentic to the point of like, I'm just going to say like whatever and not discern or have wisdom about a situation, but I'm just going to be what I am all the time.
Speaker: Like that, you can do that, but I feel like that's going to get chaotic and
Speaker: crazy really fast.
Speaker: And at least for me, I know if I just said everything that was, you know, that I was feeling and was on my mind, then things would not go well.
Speaker: A lot of times I'll have to be like, okay, this person's going through this thing, or we're both going through this thing together.
Speaker: So my thing can kind of take a backseat for a second.
Speaker: You're right.
Speaker: Discernment is important.
Speaker: That's exactly the word that I was going to use.
Speaker: But I think something I've learned is that there's a way to remain authentic and still be discerning because like you have your relationship with yourself and you know, within yourself, you're like, I could do X, Y, Z right now and put my problems on the table.
Speaker: But having that discernment to say, no, it's not about me right now.
Speaker: Like you're still being authentic with yourself and with the Lord.
Speaker: And you're still being authentically present for that person that, or the audience, whoever it is you're with, but that doesn't, it's not necessarily, I would say it's not necessarily a mask, but rather, yeah, that's what I would say personally.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Well, let's jump into the church and artists.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: For yourself, I know we talked a little bit about this when we were visiting you last year.
Speaker: Where do you feel like you're at as a longtime Christian and a longtime artist with your relationship with the church?
Speaker: I don't have a relationship with the church.
Speaker: I don't have a relationship with the church and it makes me sad.
Speaker: And I know that it's not biblical, but I don't have a relationship with the church right now because I don't believe in the Western church in America.
Speaker: I think it's a business.
Speaker: I think it's consumer-based.
Speaker: And I think it's one of the most judgmental places that you can be.
Speaker: Not even just as a creative, but as someone who is genuinely looking for an authentic relationship with the Lord or someone who is looking for a very vibrant and authentic and true spiritual life.
Speaker: I think that...
Speaker: The way is that the church approaches relationship with people is based on numbers and based on conversion.
Speaker: And those things are products of a bigger business that's making money.
Speaker: And I don't see even I will give you an example.
Speaker: I had a friend who was a who's a new believer.
Speaker: And he lived in Detroit at the time.
Speaker: And I went to visit him and we visited a church that he was going to.
Speaker: And it was a really cool, big non-denom church.
Speaker: It was a coffee shop inside.
Speaker: And he was like showing me like their Instagram wall.
Speaker: I swear like it was it was like that.
Speaker: And we walked in and the sermon was about, it was a good message about getting out there and doing things for the Lord.
Speaker: And they were talking about how they're going on a mission trip to Kentucky to build like Habitat for Humanity type things.
Speaker: And like, what are you doing for the Lord?
Speaker: And I was sitting there thinking like, yes, we as Christians should be involved in the betterment of the world.
Speaker: We should be involved in helping the poor and doing X, Y, Z, things like that.
Speaker: But the message is not about, should not be about you.
Speaker: What are you doing for the Lord?
Speaker: It's how are you listening to the Lord to do what he specifically wants you to do?
Speaker: It's not sign up for our mission trip.
Speaker: It's no, go and pray and ask the Lord what you're meant to do.
Speaker: Because somebody is going to hear that and be like, oh, I'm a Christian.
Speaker: I need to go serve in Kentucky.
Speaker: Maybe you don't.
Speaker: Maybe where you need to serve is at the retirement home down the street where your father is living and you haven't forgiven him yet.
Speaker: So it's not the lot.
Speaker: A lot of the church that I'm seeing isn't about promoting.
Speaker: a personal, authentic, vulnerable relationship with Jesus.
Speaker: It's about adding to the business and creating products and creating productivity.
Speaker: And I think that's really disgusting.
Speaker: And I think that's also indicative of art.
Speaker: that if that art in the church is propaganda, I don't even call it art.
Speaker: It's gotta have a Bible verse on it, or it's an image of Jesus chasing a little lamb.
Speaker: And it's like, those are beautiful images, but it's propaganda.
Speaker: And it's not about suffering.
Speaker: It's not about authenticity.
Speaker: It's not about doubt.
Speaker: It's not reflective of the Christian journey.
Speaker: It's propaganda for who we think we should be rather than who we are.
Speaker: And the very important thing about that is that Jesus meets us where we are at, not at who we should be.
Speaker: He doesn't wait for us to get there.
Speaker: He meets us in the mud.
Speaker: He meets us in the crap.
Speaker: And the Western church does nothing to indicate that.
Speaker: And there's a lot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Can I ask for clarification just for kind of my help and the audience's help?
Speaker: When we're talking about the Western church or the church you're describing, can you kind of...
Speaker: I guess zero in on like the type of church you're seeing there just because, you know, we've got so many different denominations.
Speaker: We've got somebody that might be coming from more liturgical or more Pentecostal or non-denom Baptist.
Speaker: So is there kind of a, do you have like a Venn diagram of where you're like, this is kind of the one that, I don't know why I said Venn diagram.
Speaker: Can you draw us one?
Speaker: No, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: No, I know what you mean.
Speaker: And that's, that's one of the difficult things to talk about with the church as well, because of how divided the church is in America.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I think that the division of the Protestant and the Catholic Church, quite frankly, is also just indicative of what I'm talking about with the Western Church and being just like very capitalist.
Speaker: It's, oh, you don't like what's going on in this business.
Speaker: I'm going to start my own business.
Speaker: And we have a lot of those, like the big non-denoms or like you were talking about, some people are Pentecostal, some people are that.
Speaker: And I know that it stems from a lot of different beliefs, but that to me is just like all of those different denominations and things are very like indicative of a greater problem, which is that it is capitalist.
Speaker: And if you don't like what's happening here, you can go give your business to somewhere else.
Speaker: And so that's kind of what I mean by that.
Speaker: It's not one tradition or one denomination.
Speaker: It's just the church as a whole in America is very consumer based.
Speaker: Like the model that we have for it.
Speaker: The model that we have for it and the way that we see it.
Speaker: The way that we, the way that I guess the lay person treats the church insofar as what is the church doing for me?
Speaker: And also the things that I'm doing for the church are very productive based.
Speaker: And also from people in the ministry who are using lay people and like, it's, it's that it's, it's a business model.
Speaker: And that's what I see across like a lot of denominations.
Speaker: And obviously there are outliers and I've been to some really, really great,
Speaker: Great churches and great communities, but in general, that's not the case.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I think that's a good insight.
Speaker: And I think it rings true and has rung true for a long time in America.
Speaker: And that's one of the things that grieves me about the churches.
Speaker: I wish we could, like what you're describing feels like we run into a tension point with our brothers and sisters.
Speaker: And instead of being like, let's work this out so that we
Speaker: we can have peace and we can come to a clearer understanding of what God actually wants for us.
Speaker: We just say, okay, well, you're a heretic.
Speaker: We're going to go be with the righteous, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I, I do feel like, and I think some of that stems from, you know, like the reformation and a bunch of stuff too, but I do feel like it's,
Speaker: in my limited experience as a 24 year old.
Speaker: So, you know, I'm maybe speaking ignorantly here, but I feel like there's definitely a concentration of that problem in America, like Bonhoeffer,
Speaker: visited uh america dietrich bonhoeffer who's a theologian in the in the 40s for anybody who didn't know him he's awesome look him up um but he visited and was like wow this is like there's so many churches and in a play adapted from him it has this line where he says they're like gas stations in america where there's one on every corner and each one is trying to get you deeper yep and oh my
Speaker: John, I gotta, I gotta tell you about, I mean, yes, churches are like, especially like where we're from in West Michigan, where it is, it is known as like a theological and church hub.
Speaker: Like if like, like I was listening to the Holy Post, which I'm sure you're familiar with.
Speaker: It's Phil Vischer's podcast with Sky Jitani, love their work, but they were talking about like different, like really big Christian communities.
Speaker: And he was like, we in Nashville, Grand Rapids.
Speaker: And I'm like,
Speaker: I can't believe Grand Rapids is on the map, but it's true.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Churches are like gas stations and like banks.
Speaker: They're on every corner and everybody's offering you something very slightly different in like the interest rates.
Speaker: But, oh shoot, what was I going to say?
Speaker: Oh no.
Speaker: I was leading into it and now I, now I've forgotten.
Speaker: It's okay.
Speaker: If it comes back, just interrupt whatever I'm saying.
Speaker: Oh, wait.
Speaker: I got it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I've got to tell you, so this church is so like from Acts and it's so incredible.
Speaker: I found them here in Chicago.
Speaker: I was having, I guess to back up a little bit when we're talking about like the church and everything like that, my relationship with the church.
Speaker: And I told you I don't have a relationship with the church because I don't believe in the way the church in America, largely speaking, is run.
Speaker: I don't hang out with a lot of Christians.
Speaker: A lot of the way that I meet Jesus and a lot of the ways that I experience the heart of God is in my friends that are musicians, actors, comedians, servers, artists who don't know the name of Jesus, but I see his heart in them.
Speaker: And that's biblical because of the way that the Lord rains down blessings on the good and the evil.
Speaker: And I would so much rather experience the heart of Jesus and somebody who is generous and loving and forgiving, who doesn't go to church and somebody who does go to church and doesn't display those qualities at all.
Speaker: But that being said, I don't hang out with a lot of Christians, but I do have one very good Christian friend that I've known her for many years and she and I were getting brunch.
Speaker: And she goes to an Anglican church here in Chicago.
Speaker: And I've visited with her many times.
Speaker: It's like, yeah, it's a beautiful church.
Speaker: I love, I love their, I love their church family.
Speaker: I love Father Aaron.
Speaker: Great community.
Speaker: But she was telling me about blah, blah, blah, Jesus people.
Speaker: And I was like, what are Jesus people?
Speaker: She's like, oh, it was a group of hippies in the 70s who moved to Chicago and started this commune.
Speaker: This was ages ago she told me about this.
Speaker: And I was like, I've never heard of that.
Speaker: I did some digging and I discovered the commune of Jesus people here in Chicago.
Speaker: What a beautiful community.
Speaker: They own these buildings in Logan square and they all live in this building.
Speaker: Like they own it as an organization and they like have all of these little businesses that they've started.
Speaker: Everybody in their commune, they work at the different businesses.
Speaker: They support each other like through healthcare.
Speaker: They share in meals together.
Speaker: A lot of them go to different churches and,
Speaker: They go out in the community.
Speaker: They love people.
Speaker: They serve the Lord, but they live in a commune and they're called the Jesus people.
Speaker: And I was like, oh my goodness.
Speaker: Like that is what, that is to me a lot of what the church looks like.
Speaker: It's like doing life together, but still being open and going out and serving the community, serving artists, offering classes.
Speaker: Like they really, really serve the community and they really, really live intentionally.
Speaker: And that to me is like, that's commitment.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, do you think maybe we need a broader concept of what the church is then?
Speaker: Because what that describes there is like, I think a lot of times in America, at least we think about the church and we think about the one building and the denomination that we're going to, and that's church.
Speaker: And then we're outside of church, but that is a community of believers who are living together, who have everything in common, like X says,
Speaker: still going to other church communities as far as receiving teaching and worshiping.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But their community, it's not top-down driven.
Speaker: It's just like, no, we're Christians, so we're going to do this life together.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: So do we maybe need to broaden our view of like, okay, everything Christian doesn't have to happen for me in this building.
Speaker: I don't have to find my people here.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like my thought ran out of steam.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I agree.
Speaker: I completely agree with that is we definitely need to broaden our idea of not only what church means, but what it means to be a Christian.
Speaker: Because I think we've got this narrow idea of like, oh, a Christian does XYZ, right?
Speaker: And we see that in the Bible.
Speaker: It's like, but not necessarily like you're applying.
Speaker: principles that we know about from the scripture and you're applying it in very one specific way to what it means to be a Christian in the 21st century in Michigan, in Chicago.
Speaker: Like you're, you're, there's there, you're living like it's one path.
Speaker: There's one way to be a Christian.
Speaker: There's one way to experience church.
Speaker: And that's not the case at all.
Speaker: The more people that I'm around, the more people that I meet, the more Christians I meet, the more, the more that I see like God,
Speaker: like living, like experiencing God vibrantly through different people in different communities and different ways of expressing your faith.
Speaker: I know that I'm in danger of sounding like, I know some like red, like alarms are going off in people's heads or she's like, it's too liberal.
Speaker: It's too this, it's too that.
Speaker: It's like, it's, it's not, it's not too progressive.
Speaker: It's God is God, no matter what your experience of him is.
Speaker: God is God, no matter what.
Speaker: And this one way of doing the church is not the only way of doing it.
Speaker: And somebody else is going to experience God differently.
Speaker: And that's okay.
Speaker: God is dynamic.
Speaker: God is everything.
Speaker: I don't mean God is everything.
Speaker: God's in everything.
Speaker: He's created everything.
Speaker: He's in everything.
Speaker: And people experience that differently.
Speaker: Right, because he's more multifaceted and mysterious than what we grasp.
Speaker: And so there might be different aspects of God, which for somebody, a classic evangelical church might be the way where they feel like they encounter God the most.
Speaker: But for somebody else, like for my wife and I, we feel like this sort of more classic liturgical tradition has been the thing that's resonated with us.
Speaker: And those are very different kind of ways to approach God.
Speaker: That doesn't invalidate them.
Speaker: No, exactly.
Speaker: So I wonder if now I'm thinking about church unity because I care a lot about church unity, but I can't do anything.
Speaker: I care a lot about church unity as well.
Speaker: I had a friend that was, he was, he and I worked together at the dance studio for a number of years.
Speaker: He was raised Quaker.
Speaker: in Indiana, moved to Chicago, and he's converted to Catholicism.
Speaker: And I asked him, I was like, of all things, why are you converting to Catholicism?
Speaker: And he was like, it's the church unity.
Speaker: I love the idea of the church calendar of them doing, you know, like the masses, everybody around the world is participating in this.
Speaker: And like, that is really, really beautiful.
Speaker: And I do love the elements of liturgy in that way, where it's like Christians everywhere are doing this together.
Speaker: That's beautiful.
Speaker: And I wish we had something more global like that in the Protestant church.
Speaker: So maybe if we just got out of the mindset of our prescriptive way of being Christian is the way you have to be Christian, which is not to say we're letting go of orthodox theology or anything like that.
Speaker: But I think you can say...
Speaker: listen, this is what we believe is how we should be Christian, but that doesn't necessarily mean our word is gospel, because it isn't, because we actually have the gospel right here in a book, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's fascinating.
Speaker: The theology of orthodoxy has very little to do with the way that it's being expressed, because you can be orthodox and be a hippie in Northern California, and you can be orthodox and
Speaker: And be going to church every Sunday in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Speaker: Like the expressions of those different, those expressions of faith can still remain Orthodox, but the expression being different is what makes the faith like authentic and what makes your relationship with God unique.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And we know the Bible says by their fruits, you will know them, right?
Speaker: So that's why it's important to look at, at least in my opinion, like people's fruits of like, though they may be different and their lives may look different at the end of the day, what fruits are they bearing?
Speaker: And that's how I know, like when I see someone just like being very like gracious and forgiving, I'm like, I know that's like my Jesus.
Speaker: You know what I'm saying?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker: So there's a lot there.
Speaker: That's really good.
Speaker: With trying to figure out how I'm phrasing my next question, I guess thinking about it from the church's perspective to artists and to just in general unchurched people and people who have been hurt by the church and feel like there's not a place for the church.
Speaker: If there was
Speaker: I say this as if there's not, but, you know, as the thought experiment, we have a church that's like, okay, we, you know, our leadership and our community wants to open up and reach out to these people and bring them in and make our church a space where they can start to enter into that, uh,
Speaker: sort of gathering and worshiping of God.
Speaker: Are there some ways or things that you can think of that the church could do better?
Speaker: The word I used last episode was outreach.
Speaker: And I don't really like the word outreach a ton because I don't like the idea that we're grounded here and we're like, we're going to grab you and we're going to grab you.
Speaker: But I feel like it's the best, it's the best word I have thus far.
Speaker: yeah no for sure I I I think I I think I'm picking up what you're putting down yeah I think I get it um at least like in my opinion and like I will tell a story to aid my answer it was a couple summers ago I was working at the comedy club uh still and
Speaker: It was a Sunday night and I had tickets to go see a big Christian concert that was happening here in Chicago.
Speaker: I was going with some friends and we were going to go see Maverick City.
Speaker: Maverick City was there and Kirk Franklin was there.
Speaker: And so it was like this big Christian concert.
Speaker: And I ended up getting scheduled at work.
Speaker: And I was like, no, I asked for the night off.
Speaker: I can't go to the comedy club.
Speaker: I have this.
Speaker: So I'm texting people.
Speaker: I'm like, can you cover me?
Speaker: Can you cover me?
Speaker: Nobody can cover me.
Speaker: So I gave my ticket to a friend.
Speaker: And I was like, I can't miss work.
Speaker: Like, it's a sold out show at the comedy club.
Speaker: So I went.
Speaker: And I didn't know who was performing that night.
Speaker: But I went.
Speaker: And it turned out to be a fully queer comedy drag show.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, interesting.
Speaker: This is a little different from the night's plans.
Speaker: I was texting my friends.
Speaker: I was like, you guys would not believe where I'm at right now.
Speaker: Like, we could not be at more different places.
Speaker: But I went and I was so, it was a very interesting experience that I was very grateful for to actually end up working that show because I was serving a community that was very hurt by the church.
Speaker: And I'm not saying one thing or another, other than these people have felt rejected and they've felt alone.
Speaker: And I don't think that that's what Jesus would want for them.
Speaker: And every single comedy, every single comedian that went up on stage, every single one, John had something to say about the church.
Speaker: Who was raised Christian?
Speaker: Anybody else in here raised Christian?
Speaker: People.
Speaker: Yeah, the church, right?
Speaker: Sorry, you'll probably have to bleep that out.
Speaker: But that's what people are saying.
Speaker: Yeah, that's what that's what the people in that space are saying.
Speaker: And I was looking around that room being like, I am bearing the Holy Spirit in me in this space.
Speaker: And what I'm doing here is I'm not I'm not going to go up and talk to people about Jesus that I am going to show them Jesus.
Speaker: And I'm going to show them Jesus by asking how they're doing and loving on them and being present with them and just like sharing the space with them and being hospitable and being kind and being loving.
Speaker: And sometimes that's all that people need.
Speaker: And that's sometimes that's all the church needs to do because by one person just being kind and loving and present, you don't know what the next person is going to do, what the next person is going to do.
Speaker: You don't know what God is doing in any of those people's lives.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I told that to somebody, somebody else who I met through church.
Speaker: And they were like, well, if you didn't have a conversation with them about the Lord, then like, what was the point?
Speaker: Like, the point is that we're there to bear the light and to love.
Speaker: And it's, again, going back to discernment.
Speaker: And I can't look out at that sea of people and be like, oh, it's my job to evangelize to all of them.
Speaker: Because then I'm seeing them like projects.
Speaker: And I'm seeing them like a method of productivity.
Speaker: Like if not, if everybody in here doesn't know Jesus by the end of the night, then I'm not a good Christian.
Speaker: That's not it.
Speaker: That's not it.
Speaker: I am bearing the light and love of Jesus and I'm loving on these people.
Speaker: And I don't know what each of their stories are, but the Lord does.
Speaker: And I'm just there to be faithful.
Speaker: And if he had told me and led me, if I, if I'm in tune with the Lord and he leads me to have a deeper conversation with somebody, I'm going to do that.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: But I'm not going to take it upon myself to convert everybody in this room because that's not what I'm here to do because these people aren't projects.
Speaker: These people have real lives and they need to be loved and listened to.
Speaker: And I think that that's how I feel about answering your question.
Speaker: And so far as outreach is that I think the church needs to stop seeing people like projects and just needs to be inviting people into their homes and listening and
Speaker: and having conversations or also not having conversations, just being present and loving on people.
Speaker: Let's go to the aquarium.
Speaker: Let's just do, let's just do life together.
Speaker: Let me love you.
Speaker: Well, let me be present well for you because the Lord has done that for me in times where I'm not, I'm not being super theological.
Speaker: I'm not being a super great Christian right now, but the Lord is present with me and that's how I'm going to be present with you.
Speaker: And it's by that example that,
Speaker: that I think we lead people into love.
Speaker: We lead people into acceptance and that's really knowing the heart of God.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Ah, there's so much good there.
Speaker: Firstly, I think that that echoes, you know, if somebody feels like that's not doing enough, I feel like that's basically what Paul tells us is the way that it's led to repentance when he says it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance.
Speaker: Amen.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: The times I feel most repentant are not because God's like, John, I'm really upset about you for doing this thing.
Speaker: It's the times when I already know that I've screwed up because I know how much of a screwed up person I am.
Speaker: And I'm sitting there and...
Speaker: I feel like God is saying this or remember how God is and that it's just gentle, loving and kindness.
Speaker: And then it's like, oh my gosh.
Speaker: I'm going to cry.
Speaker: John, I have, I have, I have, you and I are creatives.
Speaker: We're storytellers.
Speaker: We learn through story, right?
Speaker: We explain things through story, but I have another story for you and I'll keep this one.
Speaker: This one's short.
Speaker: This one's very short.
Speaker: I was at the comedy club again and we're in the back and it's, it's comedians, it's tech people were in the back.
Speaker: And I don't remember what we're talking about.
Speaker: I don't remember what we're talking about at all, but I say something about like, we all have those things about ourselves that we think within ourselves is,
Speaker: Shoot.
Speaker: We're talking about authenticity.
Speaker: That's what it is.
Speaker: We're talking about authenticity.
Speaker: And I say, it's interesting how like comedy requires authenticity.
Speaker: You can't be fake and funny because then it's not funny.
Speaker: The thing that makes funny funny is that it's true.
Speaker: It's true a little bit.
Speaker: That's what makes us all laugh.
Speaker: It's like, is it a little racist?
Speaker: Maybe, but it's true.
Speaker: It's just, it is.
Speaker: You understand, it's truth.
Speaker: Yeah, no, it is.
Speaker: And at the end of the day, also guess who truth?
Speaker: God is truth, right?
Speaker: So that's anyway, it's a different conversation.
Speaker: We're talking about authenticity.
Speaker: And I tell people, I'm like, yeah, it's interesting that like we need authenticity and truth for comedy.
Speaker: But at the end of the day, we all have those things about ourselves.
Speaker: But like we think to ourselves, like if my friends knew this about me, if my family knew this about me, they wouldn't love me or they wouldn't accept me.
Speaker: And I looked around and everybody's just like averting eyes because it's true.
Speaker: All of us, all of us, everybody listening, you and I don't.
Speaker: We have those things deep down where we can't tell anybody because we're so afraid that they won't accept us.
Speaker: And how, sorry, I interrupted you.
Speaker: No, not at all.
Speaker: I was just going to say that though that was an opportunity for me to be like, we all have those things.
Speaker: And that's part of like what makes God and G like Jesus so important to me because like Jesus knows those things about me and he accepts and loves me.
Speaker: He doesn't wait for me to change.
Speaker: He loves me where I'm at.
Speaker: And those are the things that I can share with God.
Speaker: I have somebody to give that to.
Speaker: And so it's those moments like that where it's, I'm not here evangelizing to people, but these are human truths that everybody experiences.
Speaker: And it gets people thinking and it gets people talking.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And it makes you a safe person for them to come to.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Because I was just going to say, that moment we're talking about, I feel like is one of the most important moments in life.
Speaker: a Christian's life that I think everyone who like really truly believes and truly has a relationship with God goes through at some point, they're like, they come with this horrible thing and they kind of have to go face to face with that with God.
Speaker: And I feel like that's, that's a moment I think we can all relate to.
Speaker: But if we try and over evangelize, we're going to block every opportunity for somebody who hasn't met Jesus yet to
Speaker: to bring that to him.
Speaker: Whereas if we're willing to put in the long, hard work, that is not sharing tracts or not that those can't be used.
Speaker: They certainly have.
Speaker: But it's not just that and throwing Bible verses out there in this and that.
Speaker: But it's like, OK, I care about you as a person.
Speaker: And I've been guilty before of making people projects.
Speaker: I've made friends of mine projects.
Speaker: And I've had to apologize to them because I'm like, I'm sorry.
Speaker: I was treating you as a project.
Speaker: And not a person.
Speaker: Yeah, same.
Speaker: But when we get, like you said, focused in that productivity kind of capitalist, let's see what we can achieve and how many numbers we can get mindset as opposed to just, I'm just a tool that God can use.
Speaker: And if I'm the tool that he decides to use to get to see this person come to him, that's amazing.
Speaker: Praise him.
Speaker: But if I'm just another little seed in all of this, which I think most of the time we probably are,
Speaker: And then somebody else reaps it or God reaps it.
Speaker: Then I think we need to be okay with that.
Speaker: And I think that that's scary because then it's, we're taking our hands off of it almost a little bit more.
Speaker: But I think that's important.
Speaker: Do you know who Michael Jr. is?
Speaker: Yes, I've heard snippets of his stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, I love Michael Jr. He's a fantastic, godly Christian comedian.
Speaker: And not usually a huge fan of Christian comedy myself, because it's usually, again, it's usually just like propaganda.
Speaker: And like, make good art.
Speaker: But anyway, Michael Jr. is fantastic.
Speaker: And he tells a story about what I was talking about earlier and what we're talking about now with just like being in tune with the Lord about what he wants you to do, how it's not always your job.
Speaker: to necessarily evangelize to somebody in the way where you're like blatantly sharing the gospel with them but being like in tune with the spirit and what he wants you to do right then and he tells the story of like um walking down the street and you see a homeless person right and he says michael jr like has some money that you can give the homeless person but you have in everything you have to ask the lord what do you want me to do in this situation
Speaker: Because you don't know the story of the person behind you and how maybe if you have a generous heart and you give to the homeless person, the person behind you might not give to them then.
Speaker: And maybe they're the ones that the Lord is working on generosity with.
Speaker: And that's just one example of how it's so important that even though you think you might be doing a good thing, you might be accidentally hindering somebody else's journey or what the Lord is trying to do in and through them.
Speaker: And that's why the main thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: Go ahead.
Speaker: No, you're good.
Speaker: We're just so excited to keep talking.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Good stuff.
Speaker: Are you, and then I feel like the question is, are you doing that genuinely for the good of the other person in the moment?
Speaker: Are you doing that?
Speaker: It's like, Oh, I'm a good Christian.
Speaker: I said, I said, John three 16 to that person, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's, is it like what, what elements of it are being
Speaker: self-righteous and what elements of it are like you actually being obedient to the lord and here's a hint like you know if you're being obedient to the lord because your heart will not and that's another thing that's so difficult about like the western church like being very consumer based and capitalist you mentioned mystery earlier there is no room for mystery in a business model yeah
Speaker: There is no room for being in tune with the spirit and like in your own heart and being present and listening within yourself, within your conscience, within the spirit moving in you.
Speaker: There's no room for that in a business model because that's not predictable.
Speaker: We need God to be predictable so that we can get the numbers, we can get the tithes so we can make this baby run smoothly.
Speaker: That's not who Jesus is.
Speaker: And that's not saying that Jesus can't work in.
Speaker: through those things, but that's not fostering authentic relationships with him or with other people or honestly with ourselves.
Speaker: And I feel like a lot of Christians are just like living in delusion.
Speaker: A lot of artists too are just like living in delusion, living in denial and just like closing your eyes and pushing through life and just like trying to be a good Christian, trying to do ABC.
Speaker: No, God opens our eyes to the world.
Speaker: He opens our eyes to him and he draws us further in.
Speaker: And that's what it means to have like a vibrant,
Speaker: spiritual, physical, emotional, everything kind of life.
Speaker: I know I'm using a lot of hand motions, but it's like... For our audio listeners, she was using a lot of hand motions.
Speaker: No, that's so true.
Speaker: That's been one of my hobby horses over the last two years, which maybe parallels my move to a different, slightly different church tradition.
Speaker: Not to say I think my church tradition is better.
Speaker: I don't.
Speaker: But I feel like
Speaker: like one of the things that I found really profound was when I was actually like thinking through what's happening in communion and most like evangelical theology would say, okay, it's just a memorial because that's what's happening.
Speaker: And then most like,
Speaker: Reformed or Catholic traditions would say, no, there's something else going here and there's a bunch of different theories and this and that, but nobody can like perfectly explain it unless you take them like mystical side out of it.
Speaker: But then if you take the mystical side out of it, there's also times where Jesus very clear, there's one part where he's like, unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you have no part in me.
Speaker: And it's a hard truth and very few people will accept it.
Speaker: Now, not necessarily,
Speaker: Not to say, you know, so now everybody needs to believe in like real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist or something like that.
Speaker: But just to say, then when I was approaching that moment,
Speaker: understanding it as a sacrament that Jesus was talking about things happening in.
Speaker: I don't fully know what's happening here.
Speaker: If there is some sense in which this is Jesus, I don't know how that is, or maybe it is just a memorial, but am I okay just saying, okay, I don't know, but I'm still going to do it and let it form me.
Speaker: And I think with...
Speaker: our productivity mindset with our mindset that comes from the enlightenment and being like, we have to rationalize everything, which is just still so prevalent.
Speaker: And I think our generation is reacting strongly against, but it's still just baked in our DNA.
Speaker: Like that just makes us have to work out everything, overwork everything, as opposed to be like, I know to the point where now I can have faith and trust in the mystery, which may be sometimes we need to do with the answer.
Speaker: And then you're not really having faith, are you?
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: It's more like, I proved it.
Speaker: I know the thing.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: I wonder if... No, you go.
Speaker: No, that's okay.
Speaker: I was probably going to retread a point anyway, so you go.
Speaker: Okay, okay.
Speaker: I was going to share another story insofar as the idea of having faith and also going back to having discernment.
Speaker: I met a friend on a film set.
Speaker: We were working on...
Speaker: the actually world premiere of a new atonal opera that was based on the life of Stinney, who is a 14-year-old young man who was executed in the South for...
Speaker: Terrible actions.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I'm like, should I say it?
Speaker: No, probably not.
Speaker: Trigger warning.
Speaker: He was wrongfully executed for something that he did not do.
Speaker: He was a young African-American man and it was in the forties and he was the youngest person to be executed by electric chair.
Speaker: And like I said, it turned out later that he was innocent.
Speaker: And so an opera was written about it.
Speaker: It's atonal, very interesting, very eerie, very beautiful.
Speaker: And my friend, one of my friends was the producer of this global premiere and we were filming it for PBS.
Speaker: OK.
Speaker: And so I was the projection coordinator and the projection operator.
Speaker: And I met somebody on set who was doing who he was working on the behind the scenes documentary of it.
Speaker: So we became friends, good friends in the film realm.
Speaker: And this is somebody who is a very educated master's degree, aerospace engineering turned, turned a videographer, very, yeah, just incredible, intelligent person and who did not know the Lord was raised Catholic and went away from the church and just had no, had little to no spiritual life at all.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so I know this person and I meet this person where they're at.
Speaker: And I share, you know, like I'm a Christian, but like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not evangelizing.
Speaker: We just, we develop a really, really good friendship.
Speaker: And months go by, maybe even over a year.
Speaker: And I just hear him all the time.
Speaker: Like, we'll talk on the phone.
Speaker: He'll come visit Chicago.
Speaker: I'll be in Detroit for a project, which is where he was living at the time.
Speaker: And I hear all the time from him is like, oh, I've got this project.
Speaker: Like, oh, I've got this documentary.
Speaker: Oh, I've got this editing.
Speaker: And he's just like, if I can just get to this certain place, I'm like, I'll just have peace.
Speaker: Like, oh, as soon as this project's done, like, I'll just have peace.
Speaker: And just over a year, all the time, I hear, I'm just gonna, I just, I just, all I want is just peace.
Speaker: Like, as soon as I do this, I'll just have peace.
Speaker: peace.
Speaker: And I'm thinking to myself, I'm not going to give you peace, but I don't say anything because I don't feel that okay from the spirit.
Speaker: There was one time
Speaker: almost a year ago where he and I were, he and I were together and he said it again.
Speaker: I just want to have peace.
Speaker: And I told him, I was like, I won't use his real name.
Speaker: I was like, I don't think that that will bring you peace.
Speaker: I think that after you're done with this project, it's going to be the next one.
Speaker: And even if you get to this place in like in film, then like, you're going to have more people under you.
Speaker: You're going to have more responsibilities.
Speaker: Like it was like,
Speaker: I hear you say all the time, you just want peace.
Speaker: And I don't, I don't think those are going to bring you peace, but I felt that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: From the spirit of like, now is the time.
Speaker: I was like, those things aren't going to bring you peace.
Speaker: can I share with you what I think will?
Speaker: He's like, what?
Speaker: I was like, peace is something that you have in all circumstances, whether the waters are rough or when they're still, it's that you're dry in the boat.
Speaker: And I don't think that you have like a solid boat because you're rocking and you're getting wet.
Speaker: And it feels like, I know you feel like you're drowning, but for me, that's Jesus.
Speaker: And having my security in Jesus is he is my peace and he'll take care of me no matter what.
Speaker: And that's when I shared the gospel.
Speaker: And John, when I tell you today, he is a better Christian than me.
Speaker: He's going to church.
Speaker: I visited his church.
Speaker: He was on the welcome committee and he goes up at the end and he's like praying over people.
Speaker: I was like,
Speaker: to you but it's but it's not it's i've never it was so cool i've never been like the final step in somebody's like journey to knowing jesus i'm used to planting the seeds i'm not used to reaping but i was like so thankful to the lord i was like oh my goodness like i got to see like i got to be part of this reaping process and this is somebody who's still in film who works in music who's worked with a lot of rappers who like
Speaker: It's so cool what he does.
Speaker: And that was just, that was another example to me of how you just need to be present with people and just wait for that okay.
Speaker: When their heart is ripe, the Holy Spirit swoops in.
Speaker: But we have to be in tune with them and just be present with them and love on them.
Speaker: And then the Holy Spirit works the rest.
Speaker: We're just waiting for the Lord.
Speaker: You're just like, you have to, but you have to have that personal relationship with the Lord to know when to do that because otherwise you're going to be making your calls.
Speaker: Like imagine if I had maybe been like sharing that months and months and months ago, he'd be like, oh, this is annoying.
Speaker: This isn't what I need.
Speaker: I need somebody to listen.
Speaker: You know, sometimes that's what people need.
Speaker: And having those authentic-
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: It's not necessarily to say, oh, you have to be a super Christian and like always hear from God, but just be willing to give that up to him and say, okay, Lord, I don't know what I'm doing here or I don't know the timing.
Speaker: So I'm just going to trust you.
Speaker: Even if you're somebody who's like, I don't really hear from God a lot just because that's not the way that I work.
Speaker: Like it doesn't mean you have to like get yourself to that point.
Speaker: God can still use you and nudge you and confirm that in you.
Speaker: Thank you so much for bringing that up.
Speaker: I will say I've never heard an audible voice from the Lord.
Speaker: Like I am not, I'm not, I've, I've, I've never spoken in tongues.
Speaker: I'm not super.
Speaker: I don't feel like I'm super.
Speaker: I hear I'm, I'm not a super Christian.
Speaker: I love how you put that.
Speaker: I'm definitely not.
Speaker: So I really appreciate you saying that.
Speaker: And I will say like, there are a lot of times where I come away from a conversation with a comedian or a musician or with this friend.
Speaker: And I've been like,
Speaker: Am I a bad Christian?
Speaker: Because like, I didn't share the gospel.
Speaker: I didn't hear from the Lord.
Speaker: And I'm like, shoot, like, am I a failure?
Speaker: Like, am I like, there are so many times where I've had doubt and I haven't had the peace from the Lord where he's like, it's okay.
Speaker: Like, you don't always get that.
Speaker: So like, yeah, there's, there's definitely those times too, where it's like, oh, I don't really know what's happening.
Speaker: I just like, I feel like a bad Christian.
Speaker: That doesn't mean I am.
Speaker: I'm just like, I'm doing my best.
Speaker: I'm trying to listen to the Lord.
Speaker: It's not always going to look this way, but like, it is what it is.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Do you think kind of tying all these together and then tying this back to something I had my priest Father Chris on last episode and...
Speaker: I'm going to tease out the idea and then set it up and then ask you the question if you agree or not and your thoughts.
Speaker: So he, in the Anglican church, there's pretty clear like boundary lines of like, this is what this type of clergy does versus this type of clergy.
Speaker: And so it would follow the theory of like a deacon is like the type of calling where it's like, we're like the church engaging with the world a lot, whereas a priest is kind of more focused on, I'm trying to shepherd my community.
Speaker: Like they just kind of did, and they're both like clergy types, but they're like, we're defining the roles this way.
Speaker: So he...
Speaker: Actually, maybe I don't remember if this was on the podcast or if this was just a conversation he and I were having, but he was like, yeah, I'm, our church is, and our church is not huge.
Speaker: It's like a hundred and,
Speaker: somewhere between a hundred to 150, but he's like, yeah, my, like all my focus is just on our people in the church.
Speaker: Like I'm not really like I, he works out of a bar sometimes as like his office.
Speaker: So he's like, yeah, like I'll see people there and they'll see my collar and they'll be like, what are you about?
Speaker: Cause you have a collar.
Speaker: And he's like, well, I'm this, you know, but he's like, but other than that, like, I feel like I'm really equipping our people to do ministry.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: I wonder if we've lost to some extent the idea of the priesthood of believers, not in the sense of we all have to make believers and we all have to chalk up a certain number of people, but in the sense of like, okay,
Speaker: We all have ministry in a certain way, and that's not in the polished, clean sense that you would hear in a sermon where it's like, you should share the Bible verse with your coworker or with your school friend, but in the messiness of every Christian to some degree, if they have a good relationship with somebody, has done something akin to pastoral counseling.
Speaker: Because all of us have walked through a messy situation with a friend and have all been there.
Speaker: And so I wonder if we need to create more robust communities that aren't necessarily always so program-based and maybe not as building-centric, but are stronger as the church for all of us as lay people, quote-unquote, to support each other in our ministry.
Speaker: And then if...
Speaker: Maybe priests or pastors need to focus a little bit more on how do we get our lay people to be healthy evangelists, not just inviting people to church, not that that's not important, but to genuinely be doing this in a really healthy way.
Speaker: way that reflects the love of Christ well because I feel like right now we're very much like it's the TED talk and not to say pastors aren't focused enough on like their congregations because I think they are but I wonder if congregation like if lay people are like okay I'm gonna do what I can to get them in the door of the church and then the professional is gonna take it from there right you know
Speaker: Whereas maybe we need to think about, no, it's not getting them to the finish line.
Speaker: It's walking the whole journey with them.
Speaker: And then if every single Christian has that much importance in what they're doing, do we need to support each other and be supported better by our clergy and by our fellow Christians?
Speaker: Does that make sense?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I feel like that was kind of a big... No, I mean, I feel like that is, you know, what the church biblically should be.
Speaker: It's us doing life together and supporting one another, right?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So, and I, I, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker: The support that we need from our fellow Christians is what gives us is a lot of how the Lord uses like, or like fills us up, fills up our buckets in order to send us out.
Speaker: But like, yeah, the, our church home should be like our support.
Speaker: Our, it is our family.
Speaker: It is the body.
Speaker: This is where we come to have fellowship, to be mentored, to,
Speaker: to grow together and then go out and then make more disciples.
Speaker: But first you need to be filled up and supported.
Speaker: And yeah, that's going back to like your initial question, which is like my relationship with the church.
Speaker: That's something that I really, really miss John.
Speaker: That's something that I really, really wish I had.
Speaker: And anybody who's talked to me over the last like five years of me, like being in Chicago and
Speaker: And working in the secular arts and being a Christian, like you talk to me, talk to me for 30 seconds and I'll say, man, like the Lord just like hasn't provided a church home for me where I feel like, you know, I'm being poured into, where I feel like I'm being invested in.
Speaker: And I know that there are reasons he hasn't provided that for me.
Speaker: yet.
Speaker: And I trust that he will.
Speaker: But I do think that that is something that is hugely missing in the church in general is, yeah, that mentorship, that fellowship of not even just like, yeah, getting together and hearing the sermon and hanging out, but it's actually pouring into one another and actually filling each other's buckets and preparing people to go out and then, you know, experience their lives and share the love of Jesus.
Speaker: But that is hugely important.
Speaker: It's all in the New Testament.
Speaker: And I don't think that you really can be a super successful Christian without the church.
Speaker: And I didn't used to feel that way, especially when I was more angry at the church.
Speaker: I was like, I have a relationship with Jesus.
Speaker: I can do this myself.
Speaker: That's not what the Lord says.
Speaker: We need the body.
Speaker: We need the family.
Speaker: And I need the body.
Speaker: I need the family.
Speaker: We all do.
Speaker: And it's just different seasons, I think, bring different things.
Speaker: And the Lord teaches different people, different things at different times.
Speaker: And just right now, so I can't emphasize enough how much I agree with you and what the church should be doing.
Speaker: And I just, I think largely that's just not what's happening.
Speaker: And I think part of...
Speaker: how the Lord is using me is in my art and in like my areas is kind of raising awareness of that.
Speaker: And that hopefully, hopefully I'll be a part of helping that change and being a voice to people outside the church and being like, Hey, no, like you're loved too.
Speaker: And people within the church.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think we need to make sure the people coming to our church don't feel like congregations, but feel like church members.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: and brothers and sisters and not in the sense of we're going to plug you into a specific thing, but in the sense of you really matter.
Speaker: And I, yeah, I, yeah, I just think a lot of, maybe a lot of the, the model that we have hasn't been doing that, or maybe there's things within the model we need to change.
Speaker: I'm not sure.
Speaker: Cause you know, that's, that's a much bigger thing to unpack, but.
Speaker: I know that we're running short on time, but just to add on to what you were just saying is that the Lord last summer, it was summer of 2022, where the Lord spoke to me through a stranger at Ohio Street Beach here in Chicago, where she and I got talking and we found out we're believers, whatever.
Speaker: And she told me, she's like, I have a word from the Lord for you.
Speaker: You need to forgive the church.
Speaker: You need to forgive the body and rejoin the body.
Speaker: And I was like, fine.
Speaker: But I was doing like a lot of research on like, Lord, where do you want me to be?
Speaker: And I found a church here in Chicago that I was like, oh, this seems like they have a creative arts ministry.
Speaker: It seems biblically sound.
Speaker: And so I was like, I picked a Sunday and I was like, okay, I'm going.
Speaker: This was November of 2022.
Speaker: And I was like, I was driving the church and I was weeping all the way.
Speaker: Like, Lord, I don't think I can take this.
Speaker: Like, I don't want to be disappointed by another family.
Speaker: I don't want to be ignored by another community.
Speaker: I don't want to, right.
Speaker: I was weeping the whole way.
Speaker: I went to church by myself and I didn't like people approach me.
Speaker: People were nice, but I was like, I just need this to be like me right now, like sitting like by myself, just like experiencing this.
Speaker: And then like, I went a couple more times and it was like, okay, like I'm easing back into it.
Speaker: I'm ready to be involved in this church.
Speaker: I go to the welcome table.
Speaker: I talk to somebody.
Speaker: How do I get involved?
Speaker: How do I meet people?
Speaker: They're like, oh, go on the website.
Speaker: I'm all over the website.
Speaker: I'm joining the sign up for the creative arts ministry, sign up for childcare.
Speaker: I put in my emails.
Speaker: I put in my email.
Speaker: I get the newsletters.
Speaker: I see who to contact.
Speaker: I'm reaching out to people.
Speaker: This was in November to January is kind of when I'm like, okay, I'm trying to get plugged in.
Speaker: I'm going to events, I'm trying to meet people.
Speaker: I don't hear nothing.
Speaker: Like I'm like, who, where do I go?
Speaker: Who do I talk to?
Speaker: I met one person in like the childcare ministry who like got fired a month later.
Speaker: We're like, I don't really know why, but somebody told me they were like, oh yeah, block his number if you have it.
Speaker: And I was like, oh my goodness.
Speaker: it wasn't it was in july that i finally get a call from somebody hi this is so and so from this church um we see like we got an email from you about your interest in joining creative arts ministry or music ministry and i was like i'm gonna be honest with you i have not been to your church in two months because i tried for six to get involved and i kept getting like i sent in the emails and i was like i don't know who to talk
Speaker: to people kept dropping the ball on me and not following up i don't know anybody at your church and now i've stopped going and he's like oh i'm so sorry like it was a we had like a change in stuff and like a and i was like i respectfully i don't care i'm looking for a church family and this clearly isn't it and that was last year john that story is true and after that i was like where the heck does one go like meet some christians here and
Speaker: But it's crazy.
Speaker: It's like, I'm trying to be part of a church family.
Speaker: Like I've been the one initiating.
Speaker: I'm the one that hasn't been to church in five years.
Speaker: And there's like, there's nobody here going out of their way to like, bring me under their wing.
Speaker: Like, let me, let me make sure that you feel welcome.
Speaker: Let me make sure that you're getting the help you need.
Speaker: And I'm already a Christian.
Speaker: Imagine if I wasn't.
Speaker: I told my mom months ago, I was on the phone with her.
Speaker: I was like, thank God that I know him.
Speaker: Cause if I didn't, they screw this.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, man, I'm sorry.
Speaker: That's rough.
Speaker: Isn't that crazy?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Jeez.
Speaker: Yeah, let's do better.
Speaker: Yeah, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: This has been a lovely conversation.
Speaker: We are nearing our end.
Speaker: I do want to ask you, one of the things I'm trying to do is just continue building resources.
Speaker: So if people are interested in growing as Christians or artists, that they have a place to go there.
Speaker: So if there was resources you could recommend for people, either to deepen their faith with God and relationship with him or to grow as artists, what are some things you'd recommend?
Speaker: I would recommend highly the Holy Post podcast.
Speaker: I really, really like their content because I think they engage really well with what's happening in secular media and in the secular world.
Speaker: And they're also like, they're not overly intellectual.
Speaker: um even though they are like very like well-educated people so but they make they their content yeah engages with the secular world very well and engages with deep theology that's also very accessible um and so like that is something that like i have on in the background all the time and like phil is a creative and um he's somebody that i really respect and
Speaker: So that's my main source of good theological engaging content.
Speaker: Let me think of what else.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I like...
Speaker: Yeah, I don't have any other good resources other than that.
Speaker: Oh, Michael Jr. is a great comedian that has great Christian content.
Speaker: He's also really solid, really funny.
Speaker: I try to think of people or podcasts or things that also engage with the secular world because we're in the world and not of it, right?
Speaker: We're not in a bubble.
Speaker: And anything else I can think of is just kind of very much like a bubble.
Speaker: I would go on Rabbit Room.
Speaker: They're really cool.
Speaker: And they have a big list of podcasts that they recommend.
Speaker: And so I would check out any of those podcasts.
Speaker: But otherwise, if people are artists out there and they're Christian artists, I would say just engage with art.
Speaker: just engage with art because like whether it's made by a Christian or not, like you have like a relationship with the spirit and you have like the discernment inside of you to know like what is from the Lord and what isn't.
Speaker: And here's the thing, like if art isn't necessarily like Christian or from the Lord, like you can still like learn something about the Lord from it.
Speaker: You can still experience something from it.
Speaker: So I would just say,
Speaker: engage with art that is moving to you and you learn more about the spirit through that.
Speaker: And don't be afraid if it's not just because it's not Christian.
Speaker: Don't like turn yourself off to it because people are people and the Lord is everywhere.
Speaker: So that's what I would say.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Thanks for coming on.
Speaker: This has been a lovely conversation.
Speaker: This was so fun.
Speaker: Thank you for having me.
