Transcript
Speaker: know the Oscars went to, but should they have gone there? Welcome to And the Oscars Should Have Gone To, a place where we discuss, debate, and decide certain Best Picture races from the Academy Awards, and then reveal who we think should have been awarded the Best Picture Oscar back then.
Speaker: Maybe our Best Picture pick was clearly the movie everybody loved back then. Maybe it was an influential work that filmmakers still discuss years later. Or maybe it's just the movie that everyone re-watched the year after year As always, we recommend that you folks at home watch each nominee so you can make your own determination and then let us know how wrong we are. And with that, we thank the Academy. Let's start the show.
Speaker: Welcome back, everybody, for a whole new episode in The Oscars Should Have Gone To. I'm Dylan in Los Angeles. I'm Rob from Boston. Glenn is in Los Angeles, too.
Speaker: So this year we're doing 1988. Not to be confused at the ceremony in 1989 where Rob Lowe sang with Snow White. We might have a classic. Yeah, we'll have a separate podcast for that. and So the nominees this year were The Accidental Tourist, a romantic comedy drama directed by Lawrence Kasdan starring William Hurt, Kathleen Turner, and Gina Davis that follows a travel writer who is struggling to cope with the sudden death of his son and the breakup of his marriage as an eccentric dog trainer helps him rediscover love and his sense of purpose.
Speaker: Working Girl is a romantic comedy drama directed by Mike Nichols and starring Harrison Ford, Sigourney Weaver, and Melanie Griffith about an ambitious secretary who, after pitching a profitable idea only to have her new boss attempt to take credit, secretly takes over her boss's role to prove her capabilities in the corporate world.
Speaker: Dangerous Liaisons is a period romantic drama directed by Stephen Freer's A film depicts the schemes of seduction and revenge among aristocrats in 18th century France and stars Glenn Close, John Malkovich, Michelle Pfeiffer, Uma Thurman, and Keanu Reeves.
Speaker: Mississippi Burning is a crime thriller directed by Alan Parker that stars Gene Hackman and Willem Dafoe as two FBI agents investigating the disappearance of three civil rights workers in Mississippi and are met with hostility by the town's residents, local police, and the Ku Klux Klan.
Speaker: And the winner that year was Rain Man. a road comedy drama directed by Barry Levinson that tells the story of an abrasive and selfish Wheeler dealer, Charlie Babbitt, played by Tom Cruise, who discovers that his estranged father has died and bequeathed his multimillion-dollar state to his other son, Raymond, played by Dustin Hoffman, an autistic savant whose existence Charlie was unaware of.
Speaker: Wow. Accidental tourist. Rob, what'd you think? What'd you think? but Okay, accidental tourist. Okay, this is the one with William Heard and Gina Davis and...
Speaker: Kathleen Turner. Okay. So great actors. um Two of them anyway. I'm not, not, not really a big fan of William Hertz. Oh, I thought you were going to say Gina Davis.
Speaker: I did too. She, she's, she's good in this movie. She won best supporting actress and I think she deserved it. Um, You know, there's other movies she doesn't shine so much in, but this movie was, you know, Muriel Pritchett, even the way she said her name was just very inviting and very, you know, the movie I think was was at its best when she was in it.
Speaker: But I don't remember it being so, I saw it back in the in the day and again for the podcast as we usually do. But I don't remember it being so so sad in the beginning of his marriage. He's breaking up and they reveal that William Hart's character's son died. And it's kind of destroying the marriage. And you know people can understand that it's very difficult for a marriage to survive when you lose a ah young one, of course.
Speaker: But um overall, I thought there was kind of a weird and uncomfortable feel to the movie. On second watch or the first time you saw it? the second The second time, it was just much so much over of a different movie than I remembered it. yeah Yeah, I don't know why that that is, to be honest with you, but there's just, you know, weird things that happen in the movie that don't make any sense that I tend to dwell on, and then I'm thinking about it, and I'm like halfway through the next scene, and I'm thinking about weird things like...
Speaker: Like Bill Pullman's character, just so bizarre. he's in He's in a tree because he's afraid of a dog. And then the rest of the movie, he's just like perfectly fine with the dog.
Speaker: You what I mean? like Like, I don't know. I think about things like that and it kind of occupies my mind during the movie. but Which takes you out of the movie, right? Because you're too busy thinking, like, what's what's wrong with this scene? And then, like you said, then the movie's all of a sudden over. and You're not really watching. You're thinking about the weird flaws in it, right? The weird flaws. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. It's just how he goes on a trip. He's he's an author in the movie, and he writes, like as you said earlier, he writes books about being a tourist, like a reluctant or accidental kind of tourist, and how you can handle that, and how you should write down to the way you should pack for your trip.
Speaker: And, um you know, he makes a trip to Europe later in the movie. And Gina Davis's character, Muriel Pritchard, shows up like, you know, unexpectedly, which is just a little, you know, a little bit bizarre and a stalker like. but Especially because this this came the year after Fatal Attraction.
Speaker: So it's sort of like, ah is there going rabbit in the pot? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. She's if they they don't. exactly play off each other as well as I would have hoped. I think, you know Muriel's kind of eccentric and forward in her interest.
Speaker: And I guess his name is Macon, right? Macon. Yeah. He's stiff and rigid. That only makes her work, I think, seem better and him seem worse, in my opinion.
Speaker: um yeah I just don't think they they played off each other that well that well. And then when they moved in together, it just seemed a little odd. It didn't seem like he had fully warmed up to her by the time that they moved in together.
Speaker: But it does give some insight to the complexity of... relationships, especially after a son, a child dies. um you know Muriel ends up being a little deeper than we thought, so that ah relationship you know evolved a little bit, but should have ah and evolved a little bit more, as I said.
Speaker: ah But the death of the son kind of doomed Sarah and making Sarah being Kathleen Turner's character. They couldn't survive that, but um Anyway, good score by John Williams, although he lost ah again.
Speaker: oh Again. i He's won, though, right? He's won, but he gets nominated every year and loses. But, you know, this is another one that he got nominated for and lost. But i always like to comment on the score.
Speaker: He... he um yeah yeah I found the movie mildly entertaining. i I would give it a mild, mild thumbs up, come kind of teetering im because of Geena Davis.
Speaker: but I would give it a mild thumbs up because of her role. She kind of set me over the edge and I thought she was excellent in this movie. So that's my take. It was very underwhelming. i didn't see it when it actually came up. I saw a few years later because I'd read the i'd read the book and ah I wouldn't recommend the book necessarily, but it's it's definitely, it's much ah more magical and darker at the same time. And I think they were trying to get that across in the screen. I think they kind of failed.
Speaker: I agree. It is a bit dark. Yeah. But also kind of like whimsical somehow, you know what mean? Like fetal juice. Yeah. Well, actually Rob, you're right. The Kathleen Turner B story is is pretty dark, but then the Gina Davis A story is relatively light, but, right um, you know, it's not a terrible movie, but there's just so much wrong with it. And I'm a big William Hurt fan.
Speaker: So that's, you are yeah, that's not my problem. Um, And I like Kathleen Turner a lot. I think she's really underrated. It just didn't really hold together for me. And it's, Rob, when you say the bull Bill Pullman character, that's the perfect symbol. It's like, why is he in this? Why is he acting the way he's doing? He just seemed to be there to to make situations happen.
Speaker: and And unfortunately, this reminds me like one of those John Cheever books where it's like, oh, this kind of upper-class white guy is going through. Wait, have you read John Cheever?
Speaker: I read rabbit, whatever the first was. That's John Updike. Oh, shit, yeah. Cheever's Wap Shot. Yeah, I couldn't get through it. Sorry. Oh, okay. I confuse them both because they're both like literary sleeping pills. But ah John Updike, yeah, right Run Rabbit Run.
Speaker: So it reminded me of that where what happened to William Hurt was terrible. That's the worst thing that can happen to anybody. Yeah. Having said that, A lot of it's about him opening up and he's been closed and he comes from a closed family and Gina Davis is there to open them up. And she just, she just serves him. And and she even says in the movie, like, Oh, I'm, I forget, Glenis, you'll remember the phrase. Something good thing I'm here to help you or fix you or something. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: Her existence is only eight from which we had a whole discussion about that. What is it? The manic pixie dream girl. Yeah. Which she definitely qualifies. Yeah, she's definitely the manic pixie dream girl who only exists to bring William Hurt's character Macon forward. Like you she helps him grow. She has kind of no hopes of her own. we never really learn anything about what her hopes are. that You know, she lives in kind of a crappy apartment.
Speaker: somewhere and yeah you know what's her deal she's just perfectly happy with her life it doesn't seem like maybe that's true but we never find out anything so she's just kind of this character that that is only there for the main character which is yeah very hollow it was same with the kathleen turner character she was just there to force a choice between her and gina davis and symbolically his old clothes life i suppose and his this new open life so i just thought it was kind of dull and um the acting was really good but um
Speaker: I guess, Rob, I wouldn't give it a thumbs down or a thumbs up. if you If you see it, fine. If you go your whole life without seeing it, even better. I don't know. I mean, whatever. but What do you think about the focus, though? Because the focus is supposed to be on him. And I personally felt that the focus was on Geena Davis because...
Speaker: she was so good it no i did you feel you okay i think no i think because she gave such a strong performance the film started to turn towards her just based on her but as a character it wasn't she just happened to really play that character better than i i don't know who else could have done it better at the time not you know not meie melanie griffith right no i'm trying to think right sigorty weaver probably not um so it's like she just happened she No, she just happened to make that performance work in a way it should have. But the focus was still all on the William Hurt character. So even when Gina Davis outshined him and in scenes, she was still serving his character. Everything was about him. So I know you're saying, Rob, it seemed the focus was on Gina Davis. but I just think that's because it was such a strong performance.
Speaker: um That that's what you think of, but, but the, every scene, I'm pretty sure every scene was, he was in it. i don't know if there's any, maybe some of the Bill Pullman scenes, but like that was obviously comic relief. So almost every scene and definitely every plot line revolves around him.
Speaker: So he's still the focus dramatically, but yeah, she stole like a lot of scenes because she was just really perfect in this role, you know? Okay. So what do you think? why It just seems like a movie that ah could only be made and and enjoyed in the eighties.
Speaker: yeah And like the minute 1989 was over, like this, this movies um run just died a good death. Probably that sums up this whole year. Actually, these movies can only be made 1988.
Speaker: Yeah. And enjoyed in 1988. Yeah. and enjoyed in nineteen eighty yeah yeah i think, um, Like, i I did watch it maybe a a couple years after it was out, probably still in the 80s, I'm guessing. but um And I remember being like, oh, this is delightful. So it must have still been the 80s.
Speaker: um And ah just read the thing I always remembered, i remembered nothing else about the movie except for Geena Davis pulling on the dog's choke chain. That was all remembered for years. was like, oh, that choke chain seems a little mean.
Speaker: to me that really stuck in my head and that I guess that says a lot about the movie um I think I you pretty much summed it up there's just not years watching it years later I was horribly disappointed like I was like what did I find cool about this movie and maybe it's just that I was young and hadn't watched a lot of movies yet so you have a lot less to compare it to so but it's again it's mid it's mid it's like like dylan said if you watch it great if you don't watch it even better so i i don't know i i guess i was disappointed i for years i was like i remember that being such a great movie and then watching it going it's not that great of a movie so right skip it agree yeah yeah well said next is working girl glennis you're a working girl
Speaker: I am. And I do like to wear sneakers with my, um, working girl clothing, which thankfully are scrubs now, but, um, uh, working girl, I think this is one of those movies that everybody liked.
Speaker: And I think I thought at the time, yeah, it's fine. It's kind of a fun movie. And, yeah, Years later, it's still kind of fun. You're seeing big stars acting, and that's fun.
Speaker: um Harrison Ford can't really act, but this is he's doing his best here. yeah um Sigourney Weaver is the star of this, but obviously, and to me, Sigourney Weaver comes out ah out as the star because she's had she's the best actor in this movie.
Speaker: But Melanie Griffith is the star of the movie. um she She's the focus. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like this movie is just... ah If you want to know what the 80s were like or not like, I don't know. like It's obviously a fantasy. like We're all really pretending this is possible, that a lowly secretary can move her way up by sort of being crafty and smart and getting back at the people who have wronged her.
Speaker: like And then she's forgiven for doing all that, and she's given an office with a window and secretary... secretary It's a silly movie. It's still enjoyable, though, unlike The Accidental Tourist.
Speaker: I still had fun watching it, but it's just definitely more shout-of-the-TV. It's silly, kind of fun. um You know, obviously complete fantasy, but, you know, it's, don't know, it's hard to dislike this movie.
Speaker: I think it's a throwback to movies from the 30s and 40s, which were more forgiving of because they were still figuring out the craft and the form. yeah So I think was it was it's inferior to, but not unlike like Desk Set or His Girl Friday. These kind of office comedy romances between stre strong lead characters is usually misunderstanding some antagonism.
Speaker: you know antagonism i And I think that's why it worked in the eighty s because the 80s as a whole was a weird throwback a lot of times, so like kind of older styles of movies. When they weren't, they were like wildly, you know, fucking nuts like Blue Velvet. But but for the most part, it was very, very traditional Hollywood. So I think I think for what it is, it's it's it's great. I just don't like it because I think it's old fashioned to the point of being.
Speaker: dull. I do remember seeing when it came out and i was like, yeah, I guess I think it's a throwback. And I think if if it, if, if a viewer can look at it that way, you can really enjoy it. It's the, the plot is implausible.
Speaker: The characters are broad, except for Sigourney Weaver, who's a great actress. I think she got nominated for this and lost to the aforementioned Gina Davis in best supporting, but Sigourney Weaver is great. Always great. Harrison Ford is a great movie star.
Speaker: So that's his acting level. Yeah. and i think Not a great actor is what you're saying. No, he's not. he's a one I loved him as a kid. I still i still get excited when I see him. He's not good actor. He's a romantic lead in this, and it's like that might not have been right for him. That and Sabrina. It's just like, ugh, he's not good at romance. He has a smugness that comes across as a lovable curmudgeon, curmudgeon but it's like that doesn't work as a romantic lead. He's always kind of like, meh.
Speaker: And I think this was supposed to be Melanie Griffith, like, oh, my God, she's she's she's rising to the A-list. But, you know, this is Melanie Griffith at her best and worst, if any Melanie Griffith fans out there, which is probably only Dakota Johnson. Why do you think it's sounds the worst?
Speaker: Because it shows all her flaws that she can't overcome. but Like her her bad acting, you mean? Like that she can't... Her baby face, her her baby voice, um you know, her kind of awkwardness with her body.
Speaker: But those also are her strengths. She does seem like a grown-up little girl, which makes you sympathetic towards her. Like she always seems very awkward when she walks and stuff. like, oh don't take advantage of her. She's just an innocent, you know what Mm-hmm. Even though I know on the set she's doing tons of cocaine, so Mike Nichols had to stop production and talk to her. If I didn't know anything about her, she seems like such a like a grown-up girl type figure. So...
Speaker: um yeah Yeah, movie's fine. It's a throwback. It's totally implausible. The acting's broad. It's like all these convoluted plot points that would never happen in real life. But you can enjoy that. I'm not going to watch it again.
Speaker: And I i think it's it's fine. But, you know, it's it's fun. It's nothing consequential. And and much like Accidental Tourist, if you see it, cool. If you never see it your whole life, your you're not really missing out.
Speaker: What do you think, Rob? So I liked it a bit better than than the two of you did. um i think the plot was very well paced and very well thought out and very well um very well done.
Speaker: it was you know There was some odd editing throughout the movie that kind of bothered me. Oh, give example. I didn't notice. Give me give me an example. That's interesting. Oh, well, it was just it was just too like too sharp.
Speaker: Oh, I see. Yeah, overall, it's almost like they wanted to rush it something like that. It wasn't calmly and warmly edited. Not like a dramatic pacing thing. Back then, they used to have to get them done in 90 minutes. Yeah, there was some rushing to it, but it was made up for by the 80s hair in the movie. That was just...
Speaker: I had that hair. Did you really? It was such a bizarre time and everyone had it. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very puffy. And um I did, I did like this movie. I do give it a a thumb up. I would say it was, I thought it was much better than Accidental Tourist.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. We can all agree on that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. um I do think people should go out there and see see it. I think that in some weaker years, you know, you might probably disagree with me. I think it could have won Best Picture in some weaker years. You're right. Maybe.
Speaker: Yeah. It had all the harm locks of that. A prestige director, Mike Nichols, with like stars at the top of their game. I mean, I still liked it better than Amadeus. Oh, really? Oh, ouch. like most movies better than Amadeus. Don't give me that really.
Speaker: Don't give me that really, You know where stand. Really? Glenn. We'll get another email from, was it Glenn? Yeah. Yeah. mail us Better than Amadeus. Watch out, Rob. This kitten has claws.
Speaker: Oh, my goodness. So, Rob, Dangerous Liaisons. Dangerous liaisons.
Speaker: i I almost wanted to just, not that i enjoyed it so much to see it again, I almost wanted to watch it a second time last month when I first saw it because i I'll admit, i didn't understand what the heck was going on the first time I saw it. I mean, it was it was over my head, the complexity of the whole thing. And I i read to about the plot earlier online which is nowadays the cliff notes and i'm like okay all right that's that's what they were doing um but you know i i didn't i didn't care about any of the characters in this movie um i i think you know it was just it was just a was this your first watch
Speaker: No, I saw it back in the day and I don't remember i don't remember what I thought about it. But, you know, it's gotten some good reviews. You know, some people call it stylist. Some people call it seductive and clever and wickedly entertaining exploration of sexual politics and things like that. But I just I didn't enjoy the movie at all. I just I think Malkovich was, you know, he but he was hired to be kind of like the sly kind of character and not really like a leading man um and there was all kinds of backdoor debauchery during this movie and things that were um you know a little too subtle for me i i think i think they needed to point out i just feel like so simple-minded here reviewing this but i just feel like they needed to point out a little bit more about about what was going on and
Speaker: um I don't know. it's I guess it's supposed to be like ah like a greatest hits from the book and the play. It was both beforehand. And that's one of the things that people have really yeah liked about it. I mean, the the costumes were great great. The production design was fantastic. But i it wasn't for me. What did you think of the acting, like Glenn Close and Malkovich?
Speaker: Not Cantor Reed, it was terrible. but Yeah, I don't know. i just It was kind of buried in the fact that the the plot was was made more complex than it needed to be. And this person is is trying to get back at this person, and this person is secretly trying to get back at this person, although it's not really you know bold and out there. So the acting, I think, was not something I really focused on.
Speaker: I don't know why. i I guess it was fine. I mean, Malkovich was not supposed to be this handsome leading man. He was supposed to have be sly and a little creepy.
Speaker: And I guess he filled that. Okay. ah Sure did. yeah Yeah, I guess that was fine. I thought this was Uma Thurman's breakout role. She was only 18 at the time they yeah they filmed it.
Speaker: But I thought she was very good it. Now, have you seen any other versions like Valmont or Cruel Intentions? think Cruel Intentions. Okay. Yeah, which which was a little bit more um more obvious, I think, in the plot details. So did you like that better then because of it?
Speaker: Yeah, I feel weird for saying it, but I did. so why yeah Why would you feel weird? No, it's just because Dangerous Liaisons is supposed to be a little bit more sophisticated, and the fact that it really wasn't for me, it just makes me sound a little less sophisticated, I guess. You're not a New Yorker. You damn hillbilly.
Speaker: yeah Well, Glennis, what did you think? um if For a long time, this really probably would have been in one of my top ten movies. like This is one of my favorite movies. Oh, really? Like of all time? Top ten? No.
Speaker: maybe maybe on a second wa in a third fourth I don't know I've seen it a bunch of times I think now it's just slightly lower maybe it would be my top 20 but I do really really rough I surprise myself sometimes I loved it loved loved loved it when I first saw it in the late 80s again watching everything on my 13 inch TV I wish I'd seen some things on bigger screens but forced a good imagination anyway um
Speaker: Yeah, I really loved it then. i agree it can be a convoluted plot and like it's very archaic, obviously, the things that they're trying to do. Like John Malkovich's character is trying to seduce Michelle Pfeiffer's character because she's so pure and that would just be something fun to ruin somebody.
Speaker: the behest of his presumed lover, Glenn Close, too. Right, who wants to get back at somebody for something. Honestly, it it is a fairly convoluted plot that's besides the point, I think. It's just that these are two bad people.
Speaker: and they're plotting together and you actually get to watch the demise of both of them i think and um that's the point of the movies that they're bad and then that do they get their comeuppance and how um i yeah i think the acting is great i even think this movie makes keanu reeves plausible as uh whatever century whatever he was you know um it's not point break but okay hes so it is there's this moment of like what the fuck is Keanu Reeves doing in this movie it's just weird um well it's kind of yeah he was young and he hadn't really declared himself as a bad actor yet maybe right now you could see it it just wasn't declared yeah her that coin was gonna fall yeah yeah yeah I think it's just it's one of my favorite movies from this year
Speaker: And from the 80s, which I don't think is a great decade for movies. And on watching it this time, I felt it was still really good. So I think this movie really holds up. And part of why it holds up is because it's a period piece. So you don't get all any of the weird 80s-ness in it.
Speaker: that is true john malkovich is gross and creepy in this but also great like if you just watch his facial expressions they're kind of hilarious and he's he's got this like he's kind of an unlikely romantic lead in this he's got that kind of rabbity grin and um just it but it i don't know it just seems to work somehow uh michelle pfeiffer is really great um for her acting ability and ah Glenn Close probably should have got something for this. She's still never gotten an Oscar, right?
Speaker: No, she probably never will at this point. She's going to be Peter O'Toole. Too late. um But she's so good. She's really underrated, I think. And i yeah, I love it. I love this movie still.
Speaker: So I don't know. Dylan, would I think you had ah a little change of mind on it. I saw when it came out. And like you, Rob, i really couldn't follow the plot. And yeah I don't like period pieces to begin with. Yeah.
Speaker: And i was kind of like, I i don't get it and I don't like it. Second time around, I picked up a lot more. um okay and was like, oh, this is really good. It is about terrible people ruining other people's lives.
Speaker: At the end, they kind of have their own self-realizations about how terrible they are. And you kind of realize they don't want to be, but they are. And it's oh, and Glenn Close, a national treasure, by the way, was was wonderful.
Speaker: I figure forget who she lost to that year, but someone who probably didn't deserve it. And then Malkovich was perfect because he was playing it fairly modern, which made him really funny. Like Glenna said, his facial expressions and his hand gestures and his intonation.
Speaker: Oh, he's saying the lines, but he's definitely doing it like it's an Arthur Miller play. So I think that really helped. um Keanu Reeves seems like the nicest guy in Hollywood. He's the worst actor I've ever seen. So whatever.
Speaker: um Michelle Pfeiffer, sort like Harrison Ford. I quite enjoy her, but I don't know how good an actress she is, but she was she was good in this. ah Uma Thurman? Sure. Glenn Close lost to Jodie Foster in The Accused. All right, I'll give you that. Fair. Yeah, that's fair. I'll give you that.
Speaker: But she probably should have won sometime the last 40 years. She should have won for the movie The white Wife. Yeah. yeah that Or Albert Nobbs or Fatal Attraction. i could I could do this all day. But yeah, so so when I saw it again, i was like, oh, this is really good. I'm getting a lot out of it.
Speaker: And now I'm thinking about it. I'm somewhere in between. where it didn't really it's not really sticking with me. i don't have the a desire to see it again, to like understand the plot points or to watch the acting.
Speaker: I think I was so disappointed the first time my expectations were low. And then when i saw it this i'm like, oh, this is way better than I remembered it. Yeah, that can happen. Yeah. So i actually I think it's a good movie.
Speaker: Again, i don't need to see again. i don't think it's in the canon. It's probably one of the better movies that year. um i think it's actually better than the first two we talked about, Accidental Taurus and Working Girls. So I think if one is shy of period pieces as I am, this is a good one to watch. And think the acting is is excellent.
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Speaker: So, Glenis, Mississippi burning. What'd you think?
Speaker: This is a movie I managed to avoid for, how many years has it been since 1988? Like I went with my instincts on this one. 40 years almost, yeah. Yeah, and I avoided it for like almost 40 years. um And it just looked like, yeah, I don't, it looked like one of those movies that was supposed to be a capital V, very capital I important movie that you had to watch or else you would not learn the lessons.
Speaker: Like Crash. Exactly. And I really tend to be very leery of those movies. Make and leery. um I tend to be very leery of anything that seems like it is supposed to teach me a lesson or something.
Speaker: okay And I was right. i and I think this movie wanted to teach a lesson but failed miserably in doing so. It somehow made... I think the other thing is which i didn't know because i didn't watch it but it made um a historical lesson about how you know um black people were treated in the south at this time in american history and turned it ah into a movie all about the white people trying to solve the crime yeah and it was just like what's that why is this story being told from that perspective and um
Speaker: So it's a, it's very loosely fiction, mostly fictionalized, um, story based on something that really happened.
Speaker: Right. The, the murder of the, um, the three activists, the three activists. Yeah. In the South. And, uh, two of them were jewish and one was black i believe yeah yeah i think the jewish kids were from new york or up or the east coast or something yeah and the investigation that follows which then it's it just goes off the books it has it's not based in reality at all so don't think that that you're going to learn something from this movie because you're not So um it's supposed to just be entertainment at that point. I think I do love those main actors, Willem Dafoe, Gene Hackman, Francis McDormand.
Speaker: I, I think those are great actors and they're doing a good job. So the thing that the acting for what they have been given is good, but I think the story is so hackneyed and drawn out. And do you know what I learned?
Speaker: Mississippi is burning in every single scene. It's burning. Oh, look, here's something else on fire. Here's somebody's house on fire. Oh, look, it's another cross on fire. Oh, there's like five crosses on fire. Not just all at once, but in 10 different scenes.
Speaker: There's nothing subtle about this movie. It's super heavy handed. And again, still just telling a story about the white people in ah in what is ostensibly a story about black history. Right. So I, it,
Speaker: Maybe that could have worked if there was better direction or better story or a tighter story or whatever. But I think we had to watch this over two nights. It was so long and drawn out. And I was just like, you've got to be kidding me. um It's just never going to end. And at the end, i guess lessons are learned.
Speaker: but not really not really um francis mcdormand's like i think this place is terrible i'm gonna stay okay that makes sense um the the place where you got your face beat in by your husband okay um you know i and i do understand that that does happen but it just it was just for a movie the whole thing didn't work for me just um yeah well well rob what do you think i can't imagine yeah Yeah, it's it's, I mean, this movie is, it's all about the racism and it's all about the, you know, what what they do to the race that they don't like. And it's mostly, you know, the white people disliking the black people, but there are no...
Speaker: But that's not what the i don't yeah right i just that's what they wanted to That's what they wanted to make it about. It's a police procedural. Yeah, it didn't succeed in doing what... It's in the heat of the night.
Speaker: but Yeah, yeah. a like Right. I'm more talking about what they were trying to do rather than what they pulled off. Right. You know what I mean? they they They didn't pull off the the lesson because they focused on...
Speaker: the the white people you're right too well and ultimately my biggest complaint is not around that but that it's a total snooze fest rob did you did you like it i like it better than glennis but i wouldn't i wouldn't say that i you know love this movie i'm going to start recommending it to people or anything like that i'm going recommend people stay away yeah no i would i would give it a mild thumbs up i would I just, you can give me a really if you want to.
Speaker: i give it strong two thumbs down. Because, and here's why, I'm having difficulty explaining why. Okay. ah Because they they tried to pull off A, B, and C. They pulled off none of those three. They ended up they ended up with entertainment, but it was, to me, it was entertaining and didn't seem like it was five hours long.
Speaker: I felt it was like about two hours long. um So, you know... They didn't pull it off, but yet they pulled off something that they didn't intend to pull off. How's that? What you're saying is somebody liked this movie.
Speaker: Somebody liked this movie. Yeah. i i think I think they wanted to do entertainment, but I think teaching a lesson was the secondary part. But I think they did try and make it palatable. That's why it did focus on white people. did have like a weird romance between Frances McDormand and Gene Hackman, which is kind of creepy. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree with Dylan. I think it was meant to be entertainment, like dramatic entertainment. And that is why probably I don't maybe, i well, I like to be entertained. I just wasn't by this movie. so but Let me cut through the crap here.
Speaker: yeah First of all, this is William Dafoe's worst role. He was terrible. Yeah. Gene Hackman. I think they just said, can you be Gene Hackman? Like, i sure can. He was not good in this. This is Gene Hackman-y. Yeah. He's just being Gene Hackman, which is, I am tremendously entertained by him, but I've seen him in other movies from that decade where he's 2,000 times more subtle and better. So this is a good paycheck for him. Awesome.
Speaker: Alan Parker, always a hack. He did Fame, The Wall, a bunch other but bullshit. ah He's terrible. So it's a terrible director, first of all. but Let's get that out of the way. Two, yes, it i'm i'm I'm not offended by points of view, if they're appropriate.
Speaker: Schindler's List was about Schindler. It said so in the title. It's like, that's cool. That's who it's about. You can take issue with that if you wish. But it's saying, no, we're talking about this one guy. We're not talking about like Shoah or anything.
Speaker: you know i mean? And it's Steven Spielberg, so he can pull that stuff off. But like, let us, I get offended as a moviegoer, not as like, you know a voter or something where it's like. Right. Right. Isn't the story about them? i don't care about two white guys. Who gives a shit? Their lives are fine and will always be fine. No matter what happens, but all Mississippi could burn to the ground. They're going to go home and have a steak dinner. Like who gives a shit? It's about the black people getting to shit beat out of them.
Speaker: So that's that's a problem that is very typical Hollywood. I'm not saying I have a problem as a voter. I'm saying i have a problem as entertainment. It's just it's it's like that like the movie The Help, which is narrated by not The Help.
Speaker: It's only seen through, you know. oh it's a movie called Goodfellas. Oh, what's it about? Oh, it's about the FBI investigation. Like, well, I want to see the Goodfellas. That's stupid.
Speaker: One, when white liberals get a hold of this material, they think it's sacrosanct. And that every black person is a fucking angel with zero flaws. Every Southerner is completely evil, stupid, manipulating.
Speaker: And that these white people are just, they're they're gonna they're going to learn some lessons and be better for it. Like, yeah, it's like, oh, Willem Dafoe and Gene Hackman worked it out. But hey, guess what? The next year, those black guys got fire hosed.
Speaker: So it's like, yeah, they learned, they got their lives all worked out. Who gives a fuck? Their lives were always going to work out. So from a dramatic point of view, it's just very, very dull. to like but and But Hollywood can't deal with black people in any realistic way um because they want to paint them as angels and they're afraid being called racist if they show them with any complexity.
Speaker: The other problem is, and this was like things like 12 Years a Slave, black people have more or less been fucked in this country. So the story is usually, oh, what happened? Oh, I woke up and got beat up. Then what? Well, then I went home. Well, what happened the next day?
Speaker: Well, my uncle got hung from a tree. What'd you do? i didn't do anything. They would have shot me. So So part of it is like within the stories themselves, it's very difficult because they've been oppressed. They don't have much agency. You can get around that. It's very rare.
Speaker: Well, a deft script, right? Again. Well, better script, a better director, and a better focus. And pick people. Like when they but when they did Selma with Martin Luther King, which is one of the worst movies ever made, it's like, you know, this guy was so radical. He actually was in the communism.
Speaker: Like that would have been interesting, but that would show him as not what they want to show. This incredibly patriotic America just wants American rights, right? They didn't show like he's like, you know... Yeah, lower class white people, we're with them actually. we're going to reach out to them next.
Speaker: you know he he got shot in Memphis for a garbage man strike. That's why he was there, with for white people. But that doesn't fit in with the the white liberal narrative of these black angels. So you can never show them as complex, which makes the black characters uninteresting. So you have a movie like Mississippi Burning, where every character is dull and flat and uninteresting.
Speaker: And I would love to have someone like Carl Franklin take a shot at it, or even Ryan Coogler. Maybe they could get something out of it, but... When the premise is so flawed, the movie is just going to be terrible. And it wasn't.
Speaker: Well, i'm I'm not disagreeing with you on on this particular movie. I did say they didn't pull off what they tried to pull off. i just I just felt that it was a little bit more compelling and a little bit more entertaining, than which was an accident than you guys did.
Speaker: I didn't feel like it was a long movie. Rain Man. The winner. Glynnis.
Speaker: Things about Rain Man are complex. um like I don't want to like this movie in many ways.
Speaker: And yet, I do like it fine. And I think at the time, it was like, okay, that was fine. and I still felt the same way. It's like, oh, it's fine. and but But what this movie is about is the performances.
Speaker: So Dustin Hoffman really... i think but he Did he get the Oscar for this performance? He did for second. Yeah. Which I think... was probably deserved.
Speaker: And then um Tom Cruise really breaking out his dramatic chops kind of for the first time, I think. And, ah you know, it's a story of growing brotherly love or like of Tom Cruise becoming a less callow character or something. There's a moral here in somewhere, ah but you get to watch at least some good performances.
Speaker: um So I think like, like rain man i'd say like yeah that's fine if you haven't seen it you should probably see rain man i mean it's it's it has legs right like we still know what it means to if somebody is really smart about something uh shockingly smart we say okay rain man you know like we we still use those terms um we know what it means um yeah i don't know it's I don't like it as much as Dangerous Liaisons, though. Like, that was my favorite movie, so this is not my favorite movie of the year. um and do you feel like it dragged a little bit in the middle.
Speaker: I love that I mystify Rob often. You're a mystifying individual. I like that. What going on I did not know I had that power, but yeah. You do.
Speaker: It's a quality you possess. and What's wrong with her? That's what he's really saying. What's wrong with her? No, no, no, no. didn't say good quality. It's just like, that's a quality. No, just a quality. Yeah. um So i thought I felt it dragged a little bit, but overall, I will say, i do think this is an entertaining movie.
Speaker: Everybody loved it in the 80s. Everybody saw it. Everybody was charmed by it for the most part. And it is entertaining. So I will say that it set out to be entertaining and is entertaining, along with trying to teach us a lesson, I guess, about humanity.
Speaker: So I overall think... that rain man is a good movie more or less yeah i think part of part of that what you're alluding to and correct me if i'm wrong is the the reputation of the movie and maybe if you see it before it gets a reputation like yeah like mississippi burning was a movie you avoided because of its reputation of the lesson probably because of the trailer but yeah okay well the well rain man was a movie that i that yeah I don't know. I saw it. be I think it was got maybe a second or third week out. I remember seeing it in in the theater.
Speaker: the This movie is probably in one of my top, I don't know, 20 favorite movies of all time, I would say. i think I think you and I can reverse on Dangerous Liaisons and Rain Man. So I think we can relate.
Speaker: But not as like, I don't feel as strongly about Rain Man as you did about Dangerous Liaisons. I do think like it's a fun movie. That's true. that you should definitely see like movie stars acting. It's fun to see movie stars, right? Like, but, but also Dustin Hoffman is a great actor and that it is a fun movie with a serious message or a serious undertone to it.
Speaker: I mean, we kind of we can talk about how that it's, it's weird, like that we're, I'm watching this movie now. i'm like, Hey, this, this individual, they're not calling it that, but he has traits of autism. Like, you know,
Speaker: um That said, I'm still thinking of it through my 1988 eyes. And it's like, yeah, I can see how we all just thought that was very entertaining. So yeah. Well, Rob, it hasn't aged perfectly, but I think you could still watch it and enjoy it.
Speaker: What did you think, Rob? Because you've already started to kind of. ah Yeah, I started there a little bit. and um Yeah, it's it was to me one of my favorite movies ever. I could watch this. or Ever. against some oh yeah. i taught I'd say top ever,
Speaker: i would say Yeah, no, I really, really enjoyed this movie. I just think it's one of the rare movies to me that seemed too short, even though it was a little over two hours long, which is a compliment to the movie. I just wanted it to keep going.
Speaker: ah rarely i don't know i don't know about a sequel or anything like that. Usually sequels aren't as good and they kind of go astray. But um I just wanted to see more. i wanted to see like him going back to the institution at the end, which I guess was a secondary ending. The original ending had him going with Tom Cruise. Oh no. They dropped that.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. They dropped that and at the last minute and they had him going back to the, to the institution yeah that would have ruined the movie actually yeah woodrooms yeah i think so too i think so too we would mean that the point of it was tom cruise's growth i think and if his growth yeah because he was he was amazing in this movie too he got a kind of overshadowed by dustin hoffman's um artistic character but but cruises development during the movie was really something to behold i thought that was quite amazing Yeah, I think one of the things that one of the reasons he won the Oscar and one of the things that endear people to him the most was that he got people to love him by making his character both simple and complex.
Speaker: Yes, good point. Yes. You know what I mean? He's ah he's ah he's a a simple man that's got to watch ah a simple TV show at a certain time of day. He's got to be in bed at a certain time.
Speaker: He's got his routine, but yet he can do these incredibly complex things and helping him is a complex thing. as well. And that's what tom that's what Charlie Babbitt, sorry, keep calling him Tom Cruise, yeah Charlie, ah during the movie, learns. He learns how to help him, and he evolved and stopped yelling at him after a while.
Speaker: Which, you know, at the beginning, he's such an arrogant character, that it was just really was annoying how he would yell at him, and that's one of the reasons... his girlfriend left him. It's like, you know, treat him right. i can't stand this anymore.
Speaker: Right. And you're using him to, for financial gain. And that yeah seems wrong. Yeah. That's true too. Yeah. That's true too. um But, and one, one, one of my favorite parts is the, the airline scene when they, when he, they're going to get on the plane. And this was really the basis for the whole movie was the road trip. And this is how the road trip started was that they couldn't,
Speaker: and get on the plane unless it was Qantas because Qantas never crashed. Right. And that I thought that was funny. Well, where's Qantas now, huh? Where are are they now? they They ended up editing that whole airplane scene out of the movie that when it was shown on airplanes, every airline edited it out. They said, except for Qantas, Qantas kept it in.
Speaker: Yeah. They didn't want you thinking about plane crashes. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. So I love the movie. I quote the movie often. I think that Dustin Hoffman was amazing. What's your quote that you say? Yeah, what's the quote?
Speaker: um my my my brother My brother loves being in a closed space with me and going, uh-oh, pardon. That's one of them. But it's like, yeah, definitely got to watch Wagner. Wagner at 4 o'clock. Yeah, Wagner's coming up. Got to Wagner. Yeah, things like that.
Speaker: oh That's funny. I love it. Dylan. Yeah. um yeah I don't strong feelings either way. um I've never seen it when it came out. Oh, that's that's fine. And I remember thinking, Dustin Hoffman, wow.
Speaker: um Wow, what ah what a performance. ah And when we rewatch it, I've seen it bits and pieces on TV. I've never like sat down and purposely, I'm going watch Rain Man.
Speaker: I got a lot more out of it this time. i think so to get the the one flaw the way I think the road trip scene kind of drags. Yeah, I think it's a little too long to get to the lack of good dialogue in the road trip scene. I think if they had more dialogue, more kind of snappy dialogue, it wouldn't have made it seem so long.
Speaker: Yeah, because that's the best parts of the movie when they're they're seeing their relationship grow through their dialogue, where, yeah like Glennon said, first he's kind of yelling at him, he's he's annoyed with him, and then he starts to kind of, let me help you. And then by the end, like, oh, no, i actually love him. So, yeah, I think there was enough dialogue between the two in the road trip. That's a good point, Rob. was like, oh...
Speaker: you know and uh i have nothing against valerie galena but sort of like i don't know what she's doing there she seemed to have already made up her mind that i don't want to be you know tom cruise but you know whatever um so i i think it's a pretty good movie i i disagree rob think it's a little too long but that's just the road trip actually the the first third in the last the the first act and the third act are are wonderful i just again i think the second act drags for the reasons rob said but Yeah.
Speaker: The real, I have to say it, and everyone knows I'm a big Tom Cruise fan. And when I say this, I want to be clear. I do not think he is Sean Penn or Christian Bale. I mean, for a movie star, I think he's a very good actor.
Speaker: And the movie is about- He's won over. Yeah. The movie's about him, which I like. Raymond never changes. In fact, to the end, goes, well, I kind of want i want to be a view, but I also kind of want to go back to the home and I can't kind of decide.
Speaker: Yeah. so at first Tom Cruise is a complete asshole, which Tom Cruise excels at playing at. And I do not mean that as a, as a, you know, as a, as a slight, like most actors would have too much vanity.
Speaker: and i like to say at the beginning, he just just, he like actively dislikes Raymond, the Dustin Hoffman character. He's like, Jesus, you know, And halfway through, he's starting to kind of act like he's an exasperated father, but that's like growth. He's like, oh Raymond, let me do that for you. No, no, come on. Let me, don't don't do that. Don't touch that. Oh, let me you know what mean?
Speaker: He keeps growing and growing. And the best scene is at the end, where they're having a psychiatric hearing to decide what happens to Raymond. Does he go with Tom Cruise as, as you know, Tom Cruise would be his guardian or as he go back to the home?
Speaker: You're still not sure, at least I wasn't up to this point, like I think Tom Cruise is still kind of in it for the money. He obviously has grown to appreciate Raymond with some affection, but um he still seems to see him as a payday. And and and the pivotal scene is where the psychiatrist is saying, well, you know, the best thing is probably for go back home, but let Raymond decide.
Speaker: And Raymond can't decide. So Tom Cruise makes the decision. not only am I foregoing the money, i actually have grown to love him. So even though it's going to hurt me to be separated, because I love him, I realize the best thing is for him to be back in the home and not with me.
Speaker: It showed that Tom Cruise actually did grow to love him because he could let him go for what's best for Raymond. That shows how much Tom Cruise grow. To me, that made the whole movie like, oh, this good movie. If had been a standard happy ending, it's like, well, this is stupid.
Speaker: But it showed Tom Cruise growing, and that was how you knew he grew. He let him go out of love. So I think it's a really good movie. I'm not with Rob that it's like one of my favorite movies, but I think everyone everyone has to see it because it was so big and so famous. do You got to see it. And the performances are wonderful.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's not that it's not that um Raymond couldn't decide. It was that he didn't have the ability to decide. Well, remember they but they asked him and he said, you want to be with Charlie? Yeah. He goes, you want to be home? Yeah. That shows like you don't know what you kind of.
Speaker: Right. He doesn't have the mental capacity to be able to. do He wants both things, but he is not able to decide what's best for him. Thumbs up. Rob. Rob. What picking for this year? I mean, I think I know. Okay.
Speaker: So it's it's easy to go I think it's easier to go by process of elimination in a type of year like this. The movies are very 80s. But i think I think it was a very good year for movies, except for maybe Accidental Tourist. Really? Wow. I just think, I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker: did I say accidental tourists and meant dangerous liaisons? I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. nice scream So, um, accidental tourists was, was, you know, I liked Regina Davis that I said earlier.
Speaker: Um, but it's not, it's not a best picture. i didn't care for dangerous liaisons, you know, not a best picture in my mind. So that kind of brings it down to working girl, which I think, as I mentioned earlier, could have won in some other year.
Speaker: Um, just not this year because it's, it's, you know, it's, It was too strong of a year, I think, for for Working Girl. um Mississippi Burning just had too many um too many things wrong with it, as we discussed.
Speaker: It shouldn't have been entertainment, but but it was, and it it missed the mark in too many areas. So the movie that I loved was Rain Man. I'm going with Rain Man. No nice surprise.
Speaker: I think Oscar got it right this year. I think it was by far the best movie of the five. I think it's the movie that, that everyone says, do you've got to see this movie. You've got to see this movie. And if you haven't seen Rain Man, it's like one of those things, like, what kind of a person are you? No, what kind of a movie goer are you? But let's put that way.
Speaker: Yeah. you know, you you've got to you you got see it. You'll love it. i mean, people very people, very few people have critical things to say about Ream Man. just a well-made gem of a movie that should have won best picture and did.
Speaker: It's got all, it runs the gamut to of emotions. It's got all the things that Oscar loves in it. It's got a character with, with disabilities, which Oscar seems to love as well.
Speaker: um But my favorite, movie one of my favorite movies ever. And definitely, I think the best movie of the year is Rain Man. Nice. I'm going to go next. Thank you. I think I agree with Rob.
Speaker: um I think Rain Man was the movie to pick. Some of it, I will admit, it was I think I disagree Rob. think was actually a very weak year. And honestly, I don't know if Rayman would have won in some other years.
Speaker: I think this year it's a clear winner. um okay Like Rob, i think I think you're trying to say, if you like movies, you have to see this. yeah Like if you're a movie fan, like, oh you haven't seen Rain Man? Like, come on, you you have to see it. So if anyone out there hasn't seen it and you're into movies, yes, you have to see it.
Speaker: um Even if you don't like it, you have to see it. You what mean? it's It's one of those movies that's kind of a pop culture icon and the performances are just so good. um And yeah, it's dated. All these movies are somewhat dated to me, at least. They're very 80s and not, again, not in a good way. But why is Rain Man dated?
Speaker: ah Just Tom Cruise. Look what he's wearing. I mean, yeah, a lot of it's dated. Okay. agree with yeah absolutely But the performances are timeless. whether they're Whatever they're wearing, that's irrelevant. It could be set in the 50s or it could be set now. The relationship is just so wonderful between the two of them as actors and as characters. Like the scene where he's teaching Raymond how to dance.
Speaker: Just, it's like pure selflessness and they really bond. It's like, it's really a beautiful scene, you know? So yeah, I think Rayman's the clear winner this year. Even though i did like Dangerous Liaisons a lot, I think Rayman actually is sticking with me and I think I hesitate to say objectively, but I think it hits all its marks in a way that Dangerous Liaisons doesn't necessarily.
Speaker: um So yeah, I think Greyman's the clear winner. I think they got it right for once. So, Glenis? I know Glenis is picking. Do you? Do you, Rob? yeah yeah I do. I do. we I mean, you you i won't I won't give it away, obviously, but you did mention one of these movies is in your top 20 of all time. Yes, I'm curious. I figure you're going with that one.
Speaker: right This year hurts my heart. And I'm going to tell you why, because I do think I love Dangerous Liaisons. I think it's a great movie. I, but I maybe love it because i love period movies and I think it's a great period movie. And I, you know, um I like weird romantic leads and John Malkovich hits that mark for me. And,
Speaker: um But I think when we're looking at, I'm trying not to just pick the movie I like the best because that doesn't necessarily make it the best movie. right I think the ones that that really obviously hit it out of the park that year was Rain Man.
Speaker: Everybody loved it. Top grossing movie. Amazing performances. Yeah, maybe it dragged a little in the middle, but not horribly so. Was able to watch it in one evening.
Speaker: um I'm picking Rain Man as well. Wow. think they did I thought you were to Dangerous Liaisons. I really did. I did too. You did? hi Boy, this has been, since we watched both, it's just been in my head like, ugh, I still like Dangerous Liaisons better.
Speaker: But is it as as accessible as Rain Man? It is not. um Hardly anybody saw Dangerous Liaisons, right? um I mean, it did, okay, yeah, not compared to...
Speaker: Right, compared to Rain Man. And I think that that is something, there's something to be said for popularity. It's not always the reason I would, I wouldn't always consider that, but I think that it's popularity along with the fact that everything that Dylan said about everything that Rob said about it, like,
Speaker: It is a pretty good entertaining movie with a heart that isn't too cloying. As we all know, I do not like massively cloying movies, a little bit of cloy factor, but it's not too bad in that respect. And it, it does. The ending is the right ending. They picked the right ending. Thank goodness. for You know, Tom Cruise does have to learn a hard lesson and he becomes less callow.
Speaker: Which I think is kind of, you know, for the 80s is good. We needed less callowness back then. um So I think, yeah, I would still say that that I don't I wish I didn't.
Speaker: But I because I like Dangerous Liaisons, I could sit down and watch that movie any time. and be happy yeah but that just because i like it the most doesn't make mean that it is the best picture although i think yeah i think easily it could have been the best picture if rain man hadn't been such a huge massive hit that year okay yeah okay but it's kind of cool when the movie that you do like best i think in dylan in my case the movie that we did like the best also is the best picture winner
Speaker: it is It is funny, Rob, but like the actual movie you like that you think is the best like one. Yeah. yeah yeah Cool. Very good.
Speaker: but did it. All right. All right. thank Thank you both. Well, thanks, 80s ladies. That was great. Next episode, 1977. seventy seven The winner was Annie Hall, followed by Julia, the Goodbye Girl, The Turning Point, and Star Wars.
Speaker: If you have to complain or give us comments or just ask some questions, you can email us at theoscarspodcast at gmail.com. Again, theoscarspodcast at gmail.com.
Speaker: you
