Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 30: The Many Faces of Dependency
106 Plays4 years ago
Fara and Grant discuss the purpose of dependency, how it can be both problematic and useful, and work through ways of building mutuality through healthy interdependence. We also look at counterdependency, codependency, and the pattern of shared dysfunction called "irrelationship".
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Getting to a point of mutuality, which is what healthy dependency or interdependence is characterized by, is not feeling that sense of urgency and being able to slow down together. Hi, thanks for listening to Doorknob Comments. I'm Farrah White. And I'm Grant Brenner. We are psychiatrists on a mission to educate and advocate for mental health and overall well-being.
00:00:25
Speaker
In addition to the obvious, we focus on the subtle, often unspoken dimensions of human experience, the so-called doorknob comments people often make just as they are leaving their therapist's office. We seek to dispel misconceptions while offering useful perspectives through open and honest conversation. We hope you enjoy our podcast. Please feel free to reach out to us with questions, comments, and requests.
Reevaluating Dependency: A Human Nature Perspective
00:00:49
Speaker
Hello, welcome to the doorknob comments podcast. Today we're going to be talking about something near and dear to everyone's heart, whether you want it to be or not, which is dependency dependency. In my opinion is something that gets a bad rep. A lot of times dependency is pathologized is considered to be a bad thing at the same time. And I'm curious what you think Farrah.
00:01:16
Speaker
You could argue that people are intrinsically relational, intrinsically social. We are born into dependency and we might as well embrace it and look at the healthy sides of it while also being careful about excessive or unhealthy dependency. What do you think? Yeah, I agree. I think the quote that you had mentioned previously
00:01:40
Speaker
Can I read it so that we could sort of set the tone for the discussion? I mean, I was hoping that I would read it more organically, but go ahead. Emotional dependency is not immature or pathological. It is our greatest strength. Far from being a sign of frailty, strong emotional connection is a sign of mental health. It is emotional isolation that is the killer. The surest way to destroy people is to deny them loving human contact.
00:02:07
Speaker
was said by Dr. Sue Johnson. She is a relationship expert. I think it's a good point. And I think it's especially important to talk about now as we're all sort of reemerging from the isolation of the pandemic and things are opening
Pandemic's Impact on Dependency and Social Interactions
00:02:24
Speaker
up. And I think we were cut off from a lot of important connections for a long time. And I wonder if that, if you think that that has impacted people or that has contributed to sort of the
00:02:38
Speaker
mental health crisis. It's a strange time. I don't think we, you know, I guess I'm speaking from my own experience. I think it's very hard to kind of anticipate what it's like, you know, to come out of the pandemic quarantine. The research during the pandemic suggested that people who were more extroverted had more difficulty with quarantine, which isn't surprising because presumably people who are more extroverted have in some sense stronger need for social connection.
00:03:07
Speaker
For me personally, I didn't find it that difficult to deal with the pandemic. I mean, one thing is, you know, I'm living in a family unit, so I have company, and then I'm doing a fair amount of things in my work that
00:03:22
Speaker
involve interacting with people, whether it's seeing patients or business meetings. Not the same as meeting in person, granted. But more importantly, as a kid, I spent a lot of time by myself. I think I was well equipped to deal with a period of reduced high energy social contact, which is very common in New York. It's a very socially busy place.
00:03:50
Speaker
And then how was it for you though, when you did start meeting people for dinners or for social occasions, did you feel like it was something that you had missed? To an extent. Yeah. How about for you? Yeah, it was really tough for me all the way through. I live in a family unit as well, but really, really cherish, you know, my close relationships being cut off from that. And yeah, I guess you can still talk and text, but I wasn't as inclined to, because it just wasn't as satisfying.
00:04:19
Speaker
as seeing someone in person and having a laugh and, you know, sharing a meal.
00:04:24
Speaker
So that is one of my favorite things to do. And so being without it was really hard. Did you try doing anything during the pandemic, like having like virtual dinners with friends or is that sort of not the same? It didn't feel the same to me. I'm also I think like you miss the physical component. You miss the unspoken or like the looks that are exchanged around like a dinner table. You don't get that on Zoom. So yeah, there's a chemical thing too.
00:04:54
Speaker
Yeah, you can only sort of visual and auditory senses are engaged with zoom until they have like the zoom smell upgrade. I was talking about that tactile until your computer can reach out and just give you a hug.
00:05:09
Speaker
Well, I mean, they sort of have stuff like that, but that type of technology is not really there.
Technology's Role in Dependency During Remote Work
00:05:14
Speaker
You know, one thing, this is sort of digression, but one thing in some sense that surprised me is there wasn't a big push for the last year to use virtual reality for meetings.
00:05:26
Speaker
And yet at the same time, I think people had a lot of have a lot of fatigue, looking at like a little screen or, you know, you have a big screen. But there wasn't really, I don't remember seeing anything like about a VR meeting tool, which I actually think in a lot of ways would be better, right? Because you have more of a sense of what they call telepresence.
00:05:47
Speaker
Maybe, but I don't know how that would be to facilitate it. And I think people were just trying to survive. Right. Well, you need a camera that can take a 3D picture, which usually means two cameras, but they sell 3D cameras. It was interesting to me. Like I said, it's somewhat irrelevant, perhaps.
00:06:09
Speaker
I was surprised from a commercial point of view that no one really tried to sort of push that, maybe just because people were sort of just wanting it to end soon and sort of getting in too deep might not have been appealing. I'm thinking of how it sort of speaks to dependence on technology because of course it showed how dependent we are on technology, but also like how good it is to have that as an option.
00:06:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think things that have been or would have been a lot worse without it. And certainly I think a lot of people will say, well, the work kind of got done or they found that people were just as productive working remotely.
00:06:49
Speaker
Well, the question is, is it a kind of a game changer? Are more people going to want to work from home? Now it's kind of proven that you can do it. Companies can't argue that you can't do it as strongly. But don't you think that there's a cost, an emotional cost that maybe has something to do with this healthy dependency?
Healthy vs. Unhealthy Dependency Dynamics
00:07:08
Speaker
Because this is, I would say, I think it's an important topic. And I think sometimes, yeah, we can
00:07:15
Speaker
do without the human interaction or the water cooler chat or the you know sharing a quick joke. Certainly like nothing is going to happen but I do think it chips away over time at like the human experience and
00:07:30
Speaker
at the relationships that we've worked hard to build. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I hadn't meant to tie it so strongly to the pandemic. Yeah. But it's a natural fit. I think last time we talked about boundaries as well. This is sort of an extension of talking about boundaries because dependency is sort of one of the facets of boundaries, right? If you have overconnection, then boundaries are being crossed probably. If you're too detached, then
00:08:00
Speaker
boundaries are too rigid. Yeah. So how do people know really if the dependence that they feel or let's say the counter dependence that they feel is healthy?
00:08:17
Speaker
Right. So you're talking about counter-dependence and then implicitly co-dependence, like enmeshment, right? Like unhealthy dependency, which is usually shared by two people. The relationship work that I've done, we talk about when two people are in a relationship, which is based on the avoidance of intimacy. So in a sense, if you're in a relationship where people
00:08:45
Speaker
long for intimacy, probably have a trauma history growing up where they, they experienced some kind of problem with their primary caregivers, mistreating them or neglecting them. And while looking for intimacy are also unconsciously avoiding intimacy, we have called that irrelationship, like a IRR, your relationship
00:09:06
Speaker
And it goes beyond the idea of codependency, which is usually presented as something like an addictive relationship, where one person is taking too much responsibility for what's going on in the relationship to the extent that they're kind of neglecting themselves, right? They're giving themselves away too readily. And a lot of times the other person is a taker.
00:09:31
Speaker
sort of abusive. You can have people who are codependent on each other. I think more often it's sort of one person is codependent and the other person is either got a personality that's more on the narcissistic or antisocial side, sociopathic side, or is wounded in some way where
00:09:48
Speaker
They're willing to take and take and take counter dependence. What is that? When the idea of being dependent on someone or needing someone is so scary that we reject it thoroughly.
00:10:02
Speaker
and don't allow other people to help or support and just can't accept the caregiving that makes us, let's say, really uncomfortable when someone does something nice. Would it help to talk about what counter-phobic means? Sure. So the example I often use is someone who's afraid of heights becomes a skydiver. So it's like a defensive reaction against a fear where the person goes in the opposite direction.
00:10:30
Speaker
And there's an analytic term for that, right? A reaction formation. So you're reacting against the thing that you kind of fear.
00:10:38
Speaker
And it has to be unconscious. You embrace the opposite and you think that that's the reality of your personality, but to realize perhaps over time that you're running away from something by trying to master it, to master its opposite. And so the person who's counter phobic with fear of heights, they may have actually been aware that they had a fear of heights and they said, well, I'm going to become a skydiver, but they may still be afraid of heights, but they're no longer aware of it.
00:11:06
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I'm just trying to say if people were going to apply it or look for signs of healthy dependency versus counter dependency or, you know, like healthy dependency. Yeah.
Influence of Personal Histories on Relationships
00:11:19
Speaker
First, you know, what does each one look like in a relationship? This is kind of your jam, isn't it?
00:11:24
Speaker
a little bit. I think that sometimes our dating habits can be shaped by that more than we know, like that people can be really freaked out by someone who is caring or attentive. And yeah, sometimes obviously there's
00:11:45
Speaker
too much is too much, but if somebody can't accept any, let's say kindness or love or attention, then that's something for them to work on.
00:11:56
Speaker
Well, I'd be concerned a lot of times when I see that there is a history of trauma and it to some extent can be very easy to judge someone who seems emotionally unavailable. You know, if you don't look below the surface a little bit and a lot of times, you know, there's something like PTSD there where someone who is close
00:12:17
Speaker
particularly when the person was a kid, maybe a family member not only was abusive and may have been abusive in very intrusive ways, including bodily ways as well as psychologically, would approach under the guise of being caring and would use the power in that dependency. The dependence of a child on a parent is quite different than how adults
00:12:44
Speaker
are usually dependent on each other food shelter you know basic love basic self esteem. And so, you know, just like someone who's in a car crash and has PTSD maybe scared to get in the car, someone who has relational trauma at a young age.
00:12:59
Speaker
may have an understandable aversion to intimacy because first there needs to be trust, and that can take longer to develop. I see this sometimes there are therapists who work in a very close way, and a lot of times they are pulling for connection pretty early. For some patients, they need more space and understanding.
00:13:26
Speaker
by the same token, like I understand what you're saying, but it's interesting. Like some people really get put off by someone who isn't like immediately reciprocating their strong early and fast efforts to connect, which maybe is their own survival needs. The other person needs to establish a close connection quickly in order to feel safe. The other person may need to take it slower. And then the answer is kind of healthy dependency is the mutuality.
00:13:54
Speaker
and what is sometimes called interdependence, where you can say, hey, listen, and then you have a conversation about what's going on in the relationship versus what you're saying where maybe people latch on to a relationship early because it seems to me the need that they have, but it's not meeting some other need that they're less aware of. Then later in the relationship, they're like, hey, my needs aren't being met. But I think that goes to what part of
00:14:22
Speaker
them got involved in this relationship and in these dynamics and what part of them can advocate for what's working or not working. I think that is all about true growth and understanding and some relationships allow for that, but many probably don't. If there's an unhealthy dependency in a relationship and one person doesn't want to participate anymore, I would imagine that that could be the end of the relationship.
00:14:49
Speaker
Could be. You know, I think it varies. My thinking was, if you have someone who is quote unquote needy, or let's say you have someone who's been in emotionally abusive relationships, and they've decided, okay, I'm not going to date anyone who acts like a jerk, like never again, I understand I'm attracted to bad girls or bad boys or whatever.
00:15:13
Speaker
And they go on a date with someone who seems really nice right and they're very attentive and they're very praising and very quickly they fall for that person, and maybe their friends say, I don't know, like, sounds maybe it's too good to be true but of course you're in that state of like early attraction, you know you're
00:15:32
Speaker
dopamine like hormones are up, your oxytocin is through the roof, the sex hormones are through the roof, and then you know sometimes not that long, sometimes a couple months goes by and the person goes from being very sort of loving, seemingly loving and praising and appreciative to you know they start criticizing you a little bit, they start picking at things and all of a sudden you realize that you know it wasn't really who they were but you had
00:15:58
Speaker
kind of a liability or a vulnerability born out of some kind of less healthy dependency which at the time felt like an oasis or like you had found the one and then when that happens a lot of times people are really despairing because they were trying to avoid
00:16:16
Speaker
a bad relationship, they thought they found someone loving and trustworthy, and then they start to question their own judgment. And I think that's like one of the situations where you're talking about where it doesn't work out very well, and where you can't really have a mutual conversation with the person. Because in order to have a mutual conversation, both people have to buy into that idea genuinely.
00:16:42
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it can, if that's something that happens repeatedly, be very demoralizing for the person who feels like they're always picking the wrong relationships or the wrong guys.
00:16:56
Speaker
Well, I think one of the ideas there that I find helpful is there's a, there can be a developmental like repetition where let's say you had a depressed mother and the kid's job is to kind of keep the mother happy. Um, one of my co-authors Mark Borg coined the term human antidepressant. So the kid like does everything in their power to keep their parents together. And sometimes that means keeping them happy. And it means that the kid has to not have any kind of feelings of sadness or depression of their own.
00:17:25
Speaker
or if they do they have to kind of hide it away and then as an adult if you keep having these relationships that don't work out then the depression sort of gets expressed where where it ought to be which is in the person you know as an adult so that they can identify that there's a problem that they can work on and then a lot of times you know that is like hitting rock bottom and then
00:17:49
Speaker
they will start to really look at the areas where they need to work on themselves. And then they can develop not just the skills required for healthy dependency, but also more of the ability to
00:18:01
Speaker
not just pick people who are better choices, but also not to jump in and kind of take your time and get to know each other and manage the tendency to get attached without needing to either be counterdependent or codependent. But it's like a balancing act. Right. You really need a regulator, right? You don't want to press on the gas, you know, all the way, nor do you want to just sit there and park. Right. But I think the pace at which things develop
00:18:29
Speaker
is really going to depend on I think how much insight people have into their own patterns, how comfortable they feel. A lot of times there's discomfort in the waiting. You meet someone you like, you have a date or you have a whatever conversation with a potential new friend. There is an instinct that a lot of people feel where they want to explore that.
00:18:56
Speaker
They want to get to that place of closeness, which I actually think is a healthy tendency, but how it gets expressed is different from person to person.
00:19:06
Speaker
Well, I think one of the things that comes to mind for me is that it's distressing for some people more than others to feel that void. And so that drives sort of that impatience to get close quickly because it solves a short-term problem, but often perpetuates a long-term problem, which is not making like good choices. And even if you make a good choice, not managing it well,
00:19:34
Speaker
Right, but I think it's partially about the inclination, but also partially about the behavior. It can be tough to wait to see that person again, tough to hold off on the fantasy or making plans for the future, but as long as we're aware that that's what we want, but we're not taking steps to jump in. We're not saying like, okay, I'm not going to renew my lease because this guy that I've had you dates with is clearly the one. I think
00:20:02
Speaker
looking at it and exploring it and what it means for us is healthy and normal. I think you're speaking to how one's judgment can be distorted or even impaired.
Balancing Personal Needs and Boundaries
00:20:16
Speaker
People talk about having a crush or being lovesick. Of course, there's a lot of biology there. In the animal kingdom, mating happens very quickly, but human culture is a bit more sophisticated. I don't know about that anymore.
00:20:32
Speaker
Well, I'm not sure I follow you. I'm saying I think it happens pretty quickly in humans now. Well, it does. But yeah, my point is it doesn't work so well. Because there's longer term factors that come into play after the initial period of biological mating takes place. Not to sound too much like an anthropologist or something. It's really robotic.
00:20:56
Speaker
Well, I think a lot of times people have trouble dialing it back. And that actually can help people to be more thoughtful about the choices they're making. And of course you hear people say, listen, well, I'm trying to take it slow. No, it's not that I don't like you, right? The unhealthy dependency comes out of, at least in part, an excessive need to be liked.
00:21:18
Speaker
or to have the other person not be angry or to be, you know, in general, in some way in good with the other person and the other person's sort of good graces. And if you can't tolerate people being upset with you, then whose needs are you going to sacrifice? Of course, sacrifice your own, which is what we see all the time. Right. And I think especially I know there are men who do that too, but I think women are
00:21:42
Speaker
the people pleasing and wanting to accommodate and be everybody's friend and be the best girlfriend or wife that can get really, really out of hand to the point where, and you see it also with new moms, people who just ignore their own needs completely.
00:22:03
Speaker
It's often gendered, you know, there's also a personality trait, though, called agreeableness. And I know, I know that it's gendered and culturally bound. But I also see men who are overly agreeable. And it can, it kind of gets you so far in your career. If you're very agreeable, it's a powerful, powerful asset. But at the same time, for a lot of people, there's a phase in their life where they have to learn to
00:22:32
Speaker
feel healthy putting their own needs forward. And, you know, you might be negotiating like a new position in the job, you know, you have a dilemma, you know, should I ask for a raise and a better title? Or should I, you know, be nice and not ruffle anyone's feathers in order to get ahead? And ironically, you know, in a lot of jobs, what they're looking for is someone who can have more autonomy
00:22:57
Speaker
and assert for themselves because that's who you want representing your company. So people sometimes can shoot themselves in the foot by being too agreeable, especially if they're heavily conditioned to be that way. How do you help people develop insight and choice when they start to become aware of these thorny issues, these hang-ups? I think one of the things is to really start trying.
00:23:27
Speaker
to assert one's own needs to set a boundary, even if it means disappointing people. And so that can be on a small scale or it can be on a larger one, but usually someone who has been like hyper agreeable their entire life is not going to go in and like advocate
00:23:48
Speaker
You know, for a type of change or raise or takes time to build habits, maybe, but people sort of suddenly change and really take a bigger step. Haven't, don't you ever see that? Yeah, I think that actually sometimes in therapy is a really great test run for that. Um, where patients, even though it's uncomfortable kind of to have someone there
00:24:13
Speaker
to meet your needs. They can understand that that's the arrangement and that's how it works, or they can practice it with people who are close to them or relationships where they're secure to say, you know, I'm excited to see you, but I really don't want to come downtown for dinner tonight. And can we meet uptown or can we reschedule or whatever?
00:24:35
Speaker
Do you have a role play with patients or because what I find is a lot of times people just don't know what to say, you know, as well as how to say it, or sometimes it helps to practice with a friend or practice in front of the mirror. Do you assign that kind of homework or do you just leave people on their own to try to figure it out without any help? No, sometimes I'll try to provide a little bit of scaffolding, but I like some of the things that they do if you've ever
00:25:05
Speaker
See, you know, in teaching sort of preschoolers, the teachers will say, use your words, right? Or why don't you come over and tell Dan how it made you feel when he took the ball from you, right? So the teachers will help kids find the words that they need to express themselves and to
00:25:28
Speaker
sort of get comfortable with negative feelings or confrontation. And I think that our job as therapists is to do the same thing sometimes. So sometimes we do it as a role play or sometimes it'll be like, well, how do you think you could say that? How could you express it? And even just the permission giving like, Hey, you know, when you said that to me, it sounded very reasonable. And, you know, I think if you expressed, you know, those same sentiments to your team at work,
00:25:57
Speaker
it wouldn't be a bad thing. I think people are always worried about sort of losing control in those situations because you don't know what the reaction is going to be. So sometimes if you like test drive it a little bit, either in therapy or with a trusted friend, confidant, whatever, I think that's how real change can happen.
00:26:21
Speaker
What do you think the losing control or fear of losing control is about, really? Like, what if we don't comply, we're disagreeable, someone else reacts really poorly, and it jeopardizes the relationship, or if we negotiate too hard, we can negotiate ourselves right out the door.
00:26:43
Speaker
Right. So afraid of the other person being angry, rejecting them, being abandoned. One of the things that comes to mind for me with that, which is related to dependency, is something called social pain overlap theory.
00:27:00
Speaker
Yeah, is the work of I think the researchers name is Eisenberg or Eisenberger. I think at Rutgers, but in any case they studied what happens in the brain when even something very simple like the research subject is playing a game of catch.
00:27:15
Speaker
with what they think are two other human players, but it's actually like a computer game on a screen, and they're included in the catch. The three are having a nice catch together, you know, a game of catch, a cyberball, it's called. And then in the middle of the experiment, the two computer players start not throwing the ball to the human player. In the meantime, this is happening in an MRI machine, and so they're imaging the brain's function.
00:27:42
Speaker
or as reflected by blood flow. And what they see is that a lot of the same areas of the brain that are activated by physical pain are activated by emotional pain, specifically the pain of social exclusion. So this is a very adaptive thing that we don't want to be excluded from the group, right? Because evolutionarily, that means you die. You starve to death. You get kicked out in the middle of winter.
00:28:11
Speaker
because you couldn't get along with the community, you die, probably. But that pain stays with us. But on the other hand, it can make us fail to assert our individualistic needs.
00:28:24
Speaker
which especially, you know, in Western culture, right? In the USA, rugged individualism is almost like a religion. So dependency is viewed as being almost always pathological. Whereas in other cultures that are more communal,
Fostering Healthy Interdependence in Relationships
00:28:40
Speaker
being an individual is seen as being a sign of unhealth. Interesting. But I hadn't heard of that. Social, what is it called? Social pain? Overlap theory. Overlap theory.
00:28:51
Speaker
He explains a lot, I think, about healthy dependency and counterdependency, really. The difficult part, I think, sort of wrapping up, is getting to a point of mutuality, which is what healthy dependency or interdependence is characterized by, is not feeling that sense of urgency and being able to slow down together with the other person.
00:29:16
Speaker
and become a bit curious and say, let's talk about what's happening in our relationship and let's talk about our needs and how to balance them. What is a healthy give and take? And one of the tools we use in the irrelationship model is a very simple tool. We call it the 40-20-40 because each person gets about 40% give or take of the share.
00:29:42
Speaker
of the relationship time and then the relationship gets at least 20%. Yeah. So you have to tend to the relationship together. And the way we do that is we actually would use a timer and each person gets a three minute turn and you're listening to understand, not listening to create your counter argument as people do. And when you're speaking, you're speaking from the heart, not to sort of implicitly or explicitly criticize the other person.
00:30:10
Speaker
I think that is ideal and that's something that people can work towards, certainly, and finding a way for it to happen organically in their own relationships, though the 40-2040 makes a lot of sense. I think for people to
00:30:26
Speaker
take that model and make it work for them one way or another is a good idea. To some extent, it at least ensures that people who tend to not have a voice or to let themselves get talked over, at least have the opportunity to have that three minutes, you can say nothing if you want.
00:30:46
Speaker
But when that time is really carved out for you, people are much more likely to state their needs. Though if you're afraid of retaliation, you know, safety has not been established first. Right. But then that's, I think, another indication of things. Right. That's, you know, that's one of the rules of that communication process is you're trying not to retaliate. You know, you're not quote unquote allowed to retaliate. But of course, you know, no one's perfect. Yeah.
00:31:14
Speaker
So this is a work in progress always. And you have that attitude, right? Like we're in it together. We're looking for a long-term win. We're looking for a win-win in the relationship, not to be right. And I think it's important for people to know that at baseline, dependency is normal and healthy. That's why I like the quote by Sue Johnson, just allow ourselves to lean on each other a little bit.
00:31:41
Speaker
It's normal, I'd agree. I'm a little wary of the word normal, but it's part of being human. Of course, there's a lot of individual variation. Some people sort of are less needful of that than others, but maybe I'll end on Sue Johnson's quote so people can kind of hold it and take it with them. Emotional dependency is not immature or pathological.
00:32:04
Speaker
It is our greatest strength. Far from being a sign of frailty, strong emotional connection is a sign of mental health. It is emotional isolation that is the killer. The surest way to destroy people is to deny them loving human contact. Beautiful. Like I said, she started a form of couples therapy called Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, which people can certainly check out.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:32:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for listening today and we will be back soon with another episode. Right on. Okay. Be well.
00:32:49
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Dornop comments. We're committed to bringing you new episodes with great guests. Please take a moment to share your thoughts. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. You can also find us on Instagram at Dornop comments. Remember this podcast is for general information purposes only and does not constitute the practice of psychiatry or any other type of medicine. This is not a substitute for professional and individual treatment services and no doctor patient relationship is formed. If you feel that you may be in crisis, please don't delay in securing mental health treatment. Thank you for listening.