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Ep. 25 - How to Negotiate Your Compensation Package without Feeling Awkward.
22 Plays14 days ago
In this episode, Ken Freire and Patrick Lowndes dismantle the idea that negotiating compensation is just about “being bold and asking.” They unpack the biblical posture of humility alongside confidence, explain how compensation actually works inside organizations, and give practical scripts for early-career professionals seeking raises and seasoned leaders pursuing promotions. You’ll learn how to think like a manager, ask better questions, and pursue growth without coming across as entitled or power-hungry.
Timestamps
- 00:00 – The Lie About Negotiation: Why “just ask and be confident” is only half the truth.
- 02:00 – How Compensation Really Works: Understanding total compensation (salary, bonuses, equity, RSUs, commissions) and company budgets.
- 05:00 – Biblical Posture of Asking: Humility, confidence, and what it means to ask without exalting yourself.
- 08:00 – Scenario 1 (Early Career Raise): How to ask where you sit in the salary range and what outcomes justify higher pay.
- 11:30 – Handling a No: Turning rejection into a roadmap with better follow-up questions.
- 13:30 – Scenario 2 (Promotion Conversation): Demonstrating readiness, overlapping responsibilities, and gathering proof points.
- 19:30 – Beyond Base Salary: Leveraging long-term incentives, stock options, and creative compensation levers.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to 'Buried Talent'
00:00:08
Ken Freire
Welcome to Buried Talent, the show for young professionals that tears down false beliefs about faith and work so you can unbury your God-given talent right where you are. I'm Ken Freire, and today with me, my co-host, the commandant, the chief, or commander-in-chief, Patrick Lowns.
00:00:27
Ken Freire
I messed it up right at the beginning.
Negotiating Compensation Packages
00:00:29
Ken Freire
We're gonna talk about how to negotiate your compensation package without feeling awkward. So Patrick, today we're gonna talk about you giving me a raise.
00:00:35
Patrick
That's right.
00:00:39
Ken Freire
That's how we're gonna start this conversation. Can I get a raise?
00:00:52
Patrick
But we also could maybe give some tips to our listeners because just going in like you did right there is kind of part of the lie that we want to address, isn't it?
00:01:00
Ken Freire
Yes, it is true. like the latter version of like, let's talk about it with them versus trying to do it on the podcast.
00:01:07
Patrick
Yeah.
00:01:07
Ken Freire
So Patrick, when it comes to compensation and raises and this whole conversation, what is the false belief or even the half truth that people tend to hear when we start having this conversation?
00:01:21
Patrick
Yep. It's this. just need to ask and be confident. You hear that a lot, right? Like, just be bold, you know, man up, woman up, whatever they say, like go and just ask.
00:01:31
Patrick
And I would say it's a half truth and half false. And we're going to get into like, what is a better way to do this, especially as a Christian where,
00:01:39
Patrick
Our posture is actually to be that of servant. And yes, the worker's worth is keep. And we're going to talk about some of these things to anchor us a little bit in our rightful position and posture. But yeah, I think that's only part the story of what's true. And there's a way to go about it. So we're going unpack it.
00:01:56
Ken Freire
Yeah. So, so let's, let's unpack this thing as we think about it. One of the things that we have to actually consider is how compensation works.
Understanding Total Compensation
00:02:04
Ken Freire
So walk us through, what does that even mean?
00:02:07
Ken Freire
Cause sometimes people think, well, I just get paid, right? So shouldn't I just get a raise for being paid? But compensation works more than just that, just you getting paycheck.
00:02:14
Patrick
Mm-hmm.
00:02:16
Patrick
Yeah, yeah, there's a reason why we didn't call this just negotiating your salary, right? Because there's lots of other factors of compensation. so I started my career, I should just say this at the beginning, my first five or six years selling software at one of the leaders in the compensation industry. So it's called Payscale.
00:02:33
Patrick
And we regularly had this conversation about total compensation or now even total rewards, which is a broader set of like benefits and perks and all the things that you get. So, yeah, so when we talk about this, we're not just talking about a base salary or an hourly rate. We're talking about bonuses, commissions, equities, perks, long-term incentives. Like some people have restricted stock units, RSUs. Other people have equity and stock options. So lots of different elements to the pie here. And that's why takes a thoughtful kind of preparation plan to even have this conversation with your boss, not just on what I want to get out of this, but even the why and what are they up against when they're trying to make that decision.
00:03:13
Ken Freire
Yeah. And this is why love this conversation, because sometimes people need to learn how to think outside the box a little bit and be like, oh, if I want to think like a higher level leader, I need to understand what are the things that they think about.
00:03:27
Ken Freire
So let's break it down.
00:03:27
Patrick
Yeah.
00:03:29
Ken Freire
What is it that most level leaders are processing through as they're having this conversation?
How Companies Determine Compensation
00:03:36
Patrick
Yeah, excellent, cool. So just at a company-wide level, there's two things you want to be thinking about. What's happening in the market, right? So this is the value of like the dollar and some people have heard this in terms of like cost of living adjustments or increases. And the other one merit and performance.
00:03:53
Patrick
What is this person on my team going to get because of what they bring to the table? Okay, so you need to almost separate those two things. The market is more about how competitive are we paying today relative to other options in the market. And then the other one is like, what am I doing to earn more or maybe even earn better than some of the people on my team? The second thing, Ken, is managers have budgets, right? So many times it's like, hey, generally we're looking at a 4% increase across the company, but you, a manager, are going to get this budget for your team. So now, basically, you're having to kind of vie for who's going to get more or less a percent or chunk of that budget relative to your teammate. That's usually what a manager is having to deal with.
00:04:43
Ken Freire
Yeah. And if you don't know that, I think that's where most people think that everybody has unlimited amounts of money that they could just tap into the piggy bank of a company. And it's like, no, each department has its own budget. And sometimes other budgets or departments will get more money allocated to them from percentage wise than other people will.
00:05:04
Ken Freire
And that's where they may get frustrated.
00:05:04
Patrick
Yep. Mm-hmm.
00:05:06
Ken Freire
Like, well, the sales guys are getting this much more commission. Why can't I get something like that? Well, that's because the sales guys are bringing more revenue. You know, they can flex with the compensation package or reward.
00:05:17
Patrick
That's right. And your role, again, you probably already know this when you sign up for your role, but the types of compensation you're going to get, that's going to be set right out of the gate. So what you want to think about is how do I approach the question about market and then also my merit within the market? Okay. Those are two Ms, market and merit. What do I actually merit when I think about my worth in the market? So let's Maybe let's break this down a little bit. We talked about a little bit of the base salary, bonuses, commissions, equity. Let's talk about some couple examples about how to think about asking. So from a biblical standpoint, let's just riff on this for a second, Ken. So we've got Matthew 7, probably one of the most clear verses that's like, hey, ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you'll find, knock and the door will be opened.
00:06:06
Patrick
Right. And so it's, there's obviously a context around which Jesus was talking about this in his biggest sermons. This was a lot of Christian living, but any, any thoughts on just the biblical concept of, of asking and putting yourself out there before we dive into some two examples?
00:06:21
Ken Freire
Yeah, so I think many people may take that and say, well, Jesus said to ask, so I'm just going to ask bluntly. But there are different ways to ask something, right? Like if I asked my wife, and forgive me for making sound so bluntly, but if a little crass about if I was like, hey, woman, go make me a sandwich versus I'm like, hey, babe, could you please make me some lunch while working?
00:06:45
Ken Freire
same ask, two totally different approaches, right?
00:06:49
Patrick
That's right.
00:06:50
Patrick
That's right.
00:06:50
Ken Freire
One's going to get me shanked.
00:06:51
Ken Freire
The other one, I'm going to get
Biblical Perspective on Compensation
00:06:53
Ken Freire
meal. So...
00:06:55
Patrick
That's right.
00:06:56
Patrick
Yeah, that's right. Or she's like, how about you watch the kids while I make the meal? And then now you're still like, okay, cool. It's a team sport.
00:07:03
Ken Freire
Exactly.
00:07:03
Patrick
So yeah. And then there's other aspects too. I was just reading in my Bible reading plan, just kind of thinking through this concept in Luke where Jesus was at this Pharisee's house, and everyone's taking the seats of honor. And Jesus tells the parable about, hey, take the lower seat so you can be raised up. And then at the end, he says he drops this bomb, which is basically, he who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.
00:07:27
Patrick
So some Christians could take that and say, that means we don't ask. And what we're going to show you here is there's a way to still be humble, and ask at the same time. All right? So let's give two scenarios.
00:07:39
Patrick
Ken, why don't you tee up the first scenario and then I'll step into it. What is scenario one that we're gonna dive into?
00:07:44
Ken Freire
Yeah. So scenario on, it's like you're early in your career and you're looking for
Early-Career Raise Requests
00:07:49
Ken Freire
raise. So for example, you've been in the role for 12 to 24 months and you're thinking, I've worked hard, I deserve more.
00:07:56
Ken Freire
So I'm going to go in and just kind of like at the beginning, when I just started this conversation, I was like, hey, can I get a raise? Right? You're just, you muster up your energy. That's scenario number one.
00:08:07
Patrick
That's right. So if you're in that scene and most people, you're probably, there's an annual performance review. That's, we listened to last couple episodes we did, but there's a time of the year when they look at that.
00:08:17
Patrick
So if you're only six months you should have some humble expectations about you immediately getting a raise six months in. So first things first, most companies are going to kind of pass by you, right?
00:08:23
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:08:27
Patrick
Talk about, you doing a, they're going to do a Passover, but maybe not in the way you want. Yeah. So let me talk about this. So here's something you can say, right? And maybe, again, think about humility. What does this sound like if you're not even a full year in versus you're in 18 months or 14 months? But something like this, like over the last year, like I know you hired me for this thing, and my scope, though, on some of those projects has grown.
00:08:51
Patrick
And I've seen, like I've driven some cool results, and I just want to get some feedback on what does it usually take to be considered more top tier in my role, right?
00:09:04
Ken Freire
Thank you.
00:09:08
Patrick
And this is where you can use language that they're already thinking about, okay? Most companies have range Human Resources, the Total Comp team gives them a range and you want to ask, hey, I know here's where I'm at in range. And you could even say, can you remind me, do you know where I'm at within the range?
00:09:35
Patrick
Give me a sense. usually when they bring you in, they're going to slot you somewhere.
00:09:39
Ken Freire
uh
00:09:39
Patrick
And sometimes if they're honest, they'll put you, they'll bring you in to get you competitively. They'll bring you in higher in the range. That means they can't do much. There's not a lot of wiggle room. But if you find out you're on the bottom half of that range, usually think about in quartiles and mid points, you can ask them a great question, Ken, which is like, where am I at in the range?
00:09:57
Patrick
And then what does it take to kind of get higher up towards the top of
Asking About Compensation Ranges
00:10:00
Patrick
that range? Yeah. That's the first really insightful question. tells them you're not an idiot. Like, you know how this stuff works, right? But that's step one is like, where am I at in the range? And then here's the killer question is, what outcomes would you see as a junior sales rep or as a marketing assistant or as an operations person? What things are you looking for that would justify like moving me up in my range or near the top? Like, what the kinds of things you want to see? And you're mostly asking that for the next conversation, not for this one.
00:10:30
Patrick
Right now, if you already know that, what they want to see, this is when we'll talk about that in a second about I've been there, done that. But your first questions can should be focused on where am I at in position? Tell me kind of how are you going to be grading me? What are the goalposts for a successful move up my range?
00:10:48
Patrick
that good?
00:10:49
Ken Freire
Absolutely. So Patrick, you've been talking to everybody and sharing what does it look like to set up the call or the conversation for either next time or even during that conversation to get a raise. But sometimes your boss or manager may say, hey, they don't want to have this conversation right now.
00:11:07
Ken Freire
It's not the moment to have it. You're still too new or they're just like, we don't really have those conversations right now. The question that I have found that you can ask is this, if I were to crush it in the next six months, what would need to be true for this conversation to go differently?
00:11:18
Patrick
Hmm.
00:11:27
Ken Freire
So that they can say, oh, okay, I want to have this open dialogue.
00:11:27
Patrick
Hmm. Hmm.
00:11:32
Patrick
That's right. Yeah.
00:11:33
Ken Freire
So always know that rejection is like a roadmap. If they say no the first time, that doesn't mean no, never. It just means, hey, they probably need to see something from you so that you can actually be able to come to the table and be ready to play.
00:11:47
Patrick
That's right. And I'll also just float this in before I get to scenario two.
Promotions and Responsibilities
00:11:50
Patrick
It's important that they know that you working for them, it's at will, but both of you are at will, right? And part of how you can present a humble posture, but also a confident posture is,
00:12:06
Patrick
I want to be at this company so I can earn what I'm worth and contribute as much value as I can. I want to make sure that, and it's a win for you and the company and the team, and it's a win for me personally.
00:12:15
Ken Freire
you
00:12:20
Patrick
The more that you can come in confident that you are marketable and there are other opportunities you could look at, and we could almost do a whole episode on how you search for a job while you have a job. Maybe that's a whole other episode. But I'll say, if you don't have an active search going on with other opportunities, then you just want to make sure that the way you're talking about this is, I want to add as much value as I can. I'm learning a lot here, but I also want to make sure I'm contributing at the levels that are going to be conducive to me moving the direction I want to move. And they're going to get that.
00:12:52
Patrick
Everyone gets that, right? But you see, the way we're talking about that is oriented around All right, Ken, tee us up for scenario two.
00:12:59
Ken Freire
So scenario two is you're further in your career and you're looking for a promotion. And this is like, to be clear, this is not just a small bump. This is about like level change, maybe going from like a manager to a director or director to VP where there's significant responsibility and also in theory, compensation increase.
00:13:19
Ken Freire
So the conversation switches, right?
00:13:20
Patrick
Mm-hmm.
00:13:22
Ken Freire
Or shifts from reach for the next title to also, want to be paid more.
00:13:27
Patrick
Mm-hmm.
00:13:28
Patrick
That's right.
00:13:28
Ken Freire
Or from that to like, I'm already operating at the next level.
00:13:33
Ken Freire
Like you're already building the role sometimes of a VP or a director.
00:13:33
Patrick
That's right. Mm-hmm.
00:13:38
Ken Freire
I want to now be compensated for that.
00:13:41
Patrick
And I'll even give some other examples a little bit more. You might be an individual contributor or an IC, and you might, maybe your kind of midway step is a team lead.
00:13:51
Patrick
Maybe there's a team lead on the way. You're not managing people, but you're going to be the point person for X project or Y scenario on the team. And so team lead is a nice way to step into it.
00:14:01
Patrick
And what's cool is if your manager is a good manager, they should like this conversation. They should want this conversation.
00:14:08
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:14:09
Patrick
Now, if you're having the conversation about, you know, like I'm already kind of doing some of these kinds of things, this is where you got to have proof. I mean, probably more than one data point, like probably three data points minimum of like, hey, so in the last year, the last couple of years,
00:14:26
Patrick
I really enjoy leading this initiative. That was so much fun getting to help the team accomplish on this piece. And as a team, I think we crushed it as part of me helping lead that effort. And I thought that was like a taste of being what a team lead or being what a manager could feel like.
00:14:41
Patrick
And then say, what did you think of that example? Even be humble enough, this goes back to being feedback, getting feedback. They might have been like, yeah, and it was a train wreck.
00:14:51
Ken Freire
Mm-hmm.
00:14:51
Patrick
So what you want to do is say, learned a lot in that.
00:14:54
Patrick
Is there anything that you want to give feedback on? Because that feels like the kind of next step that I want to move towards in my career. Right? Same kind of open-ended question. If I can do more of that, I think my responsibilities are already overlapping with what a team lead normally does.
00:15:10
Patrick
But can you tell me what are some of the aspects of readiness that I need to have in my role to really step into that? And this is usually not a one and done. This is a multi-tiered conversation. So usually there's mid-year performance and So you're going to be bringing this up a few different times.
00:15:24
Patrick
And what you're, again, asking for is what makes this a home run decision for you to say, yep, Ken is totally ready go to that next level.
00:15:24
Ken Freire
Thank you.
00:15:33
Patrick
What typically needs to be there? And sometimes if you're basically asking to take the manager's role, sometimes it even has to do with them getting promoted.
00:15:43
Patrick
Right? So you could even get on their side a little bit and say, hey, I'm not sure how your team, like you're looking at your own progression in our larger team or org, but how are we doing as a team as far as growth and budget and allocation? Because now what you're doing is having a, you're almost joining them on their leadership level and having to talk about the shop of like running the operation. You're not just talking about you. So that's another little tidbit, Ken, I like to bring up is,
00:16:09
Patrick
is if you're gunning for your boss's role, they're going to feel a little bit like, hey, man, this is my role. Stop asking for it. But you can ask, are we as our team getting the attention and the resources that it needs to continue to grow at higher levels?
00:16:16
Ken Freire
Ha ha ha ha.
00:16:25
Patrick
That's another interesting question to join with your leader in the leadership level conversation about investment. So that's a little bit more of the details that you can think about when it comes to asking for a promotion and even siding with your leader in how they are being invested into.
00:16:42
Patrick
So any other thoughts on that concept, Ken?
00:16:45
Ken Freire
Yeah, even if you are taking the role, like say you're not taking your boss's role, but taking another role at a higher level, many times a good conversation starter will be like, hey, I believe my responsibilities are already overlapping with, and whatever the title is, can we define what readiness for that level would look like and what measurable outcomes can be demonstrated on that?
00:16:53
Patrick
Mm-hmm.
00:17:09
Ken Freire
I think that would also help people to know like, hey, I'm ready for this. I've had that conversation numerous times where I'm like, I just took up leadership of something and like, hey, I'm already running with this.
00:17:20
Ken Freire
Shouldn't I be compensated differently or at least title change something so people in the organization would know that I'm overseeing this new project?
00:17:28
Patrick
Mm-hmm.
00:17:30
Ken Freire
And most of the time people have been like, oh, yeah, for sure.
00:17:31
Patrick
Yep.
00:17:34
Ken Freire
Like, I forget that you're running with those so many different items, right? That it's helpful for those people.
00:17:38
Patrick
Yeah.
00:17:41
Patrick
Yep, and then just again, the counterbalance to that is asking specifically for titles by name can come off really like power grab, like I'm trying to get the power grab.
00:17:51
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:18:04
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:18:04
Patrick
That's gonna come off super strong, right?
00:18:06
Patrick
But if you're talking about growth, I think, again, good managers want to see their great people grow. And if you're not there, this is your moment to get feedback on it. So that's a couple scenarios when you're early in career, first couple months or year in the role versus trying to expand up from there.
00:18:22
Patrick
But we hope that that today gives you a little bit more of a picture into how to think about how to have the conversations in those scenarios.
Non-Cash Compensation Options
00:18:29
Patrick
The last thing I'll share is, and we didn't really touch on this much, but Other than cash, there's other kinds of compensation and packages. Sometimes they can't do anything on cash, right? Maybe you're kind of at the top end of your cash range, but there's another lever related to stock options or restricted stock units if you're public company or something. And sometimes they do have bigger packages they can give, which again, are designed to keep you there long-term. So keep that in mind as another aspect of, I really want to be in it to win it for this company for the long haul. And so asking for those long-term incentives and looking for a quarterly vesting or a tighter vesting schedule on those, there's lots of resources out there around those specific asks.
00:19:14
Patrick
But keep in mind, there's more than one lever than just my base salary. So hopefully that gives you a little bit more perspective in how to have the conversation, how to not be seen as some power grabby, cash hungry, you know, punk. And instead, someone that wants to serve, someone that wants to add a ton of value and also continue to be invested in the organization's growth as a whole.
00:19:37
Patrick
So Ken, any final words?
Serving and Organizational Growth
00:19:40
Ken Freire
Can get a raise?
00:19:41
Patrick
He's going to go right back to it. Hey, we'll take that offline. Thanks for listening to us on the Buried Talent Podcast. We'll catch you next time.