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Episode 2 - Ohio Country Fever
468 Plays6 months ago
Dive into the tense prelude to the French and Indian War in this episode, as we explore France’s bold push into the Ohio River Valley and the young George Washington’s perilous first mission to confront them. In the early 1750s, the Ohio Valley became a battleground of imperial ambitions, with French forts like Presque Isle and Le Boeuf threatening British claims and the interests of Virginia Governor Robert Dinwiddie, a shareholder in the Ohio Company. We unpack France’s strategy to link Canada and Louisiana, the rising Anglo-French rivalry, and Dinwiddie’s personal stake in the region. Follow 21-year-old Washington’s 500-mile trek through snowy wilderness in 1753, from Williamsburg to Logstown, where he secured Native alliances with Seneca chief Tanacharison, to Fort Le Boeuf, where he faced French commander Jacques Legardeur de Saint-Pierre’s defiant refusal to withdraw. Hear tales of icy rivers, near-drownings, and diplomatic gambits that set the stage for a global conflict. This episode reveals how a young surveyor’s journey sparked a war that reshaped North America.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Tales from the French and Indian War'
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome back to Tales from the French and Indian War. I am your host, Jackson, and along with me is... your co-host, Matt.
Unresolved Issues Post-War of Austrian Succession
00:00:17
Speaker
And Matt, last episode, we talked about Britain and France making peace after another succession war, another complicated crisis, and now...
00:00:30
Speaker
Everyone's at peace. Everyone is happy. All of the issues are resolved and there was no more conflict until today. Is is that right? Oh yeah. No more conflict at all. We can, we can probably end the show right here.
00:00:43
Speaker
Thanks for listening. those Yeah. That's a pretty good show. No. Unfortunately, that would not be the end of ah the things that happened North American continent. Unfortunately, we are just kicking that off.
00:00:55
Speaker
Yes. So today we will be talking about some of the you're ramping up, some of the escalation of tensions immediately after the peace of Ix-la-Chapelle, which ended the War of Austrian Succession, or King George's War.
00:01:10
Speaker
but We'll be talking about some of these events that... increased the competition for the Ohio country. And then we'll go into probably finish right, right before the spark that actually lights this war.
00:01:26
Speaker
It'll be fun to dive into all this stuff. But to start... As you may have guessed, no, people weren't happy after the peace of the last war.
00:01:37
Speaker
In fact, there was a common phrase- Gasp. Yeah. There was a common phrase in France around the time called betes comme la paix, which means stupid like the peace, as in stupid like the peace of Ix-la-Chapelle.
00:01:51
Speaker
That was a common phrase that that occurred around that time. and Yeah, as you might be able to guess, nobody was really happy with the peace
Formation and Mission of the Ohio Company
00:01:59
Speaker
settlement. There's a lot of unresolved issues and tensions, especially in North America, a lot of unresolved borders between the British and French colonies.
00:02:08
Speaker
Acadia is still a mess and there's going to be continual skirmishes and and fighting in Acadia between the new British colony of Nova Scotia and the rest of Acadia throughout this time, even though there's not technically an open war declared.
00:02:22
Speaker
The borders of New England and Canada are very messy, especially the area around Maine, what is now Maine today. That's both sides claiming the same area. Of course, the boundaries in the Ohio country, both the the French and the British claiming that. And of course, the only people living there right now are the Native Americans of different tribes and persuasions.
00:02:44
Speaker
So there is a lot left unresolved from this piece. And one of the first things we will see right after the piece of Ix-Lachapel is we're going to see the Ohio Company being formed in 1748. They'll petition for a land grant in the Ohio country, which they will receive from the British crown in 1749.
00:03:08
Speaker
Jackson, could you just give us like just some quick synopsis of what the Ohio company like is? From my understanding, you know it's kind of like a charter company in formed by the British government. Is that right?
00:03:19
Speaker
I believe so. Yeah, it's kind of a... It's a mixture, to my knowledge, of like commercial and state interests with the goal of surveying and settling the Ohio country with colonists with British colonists, essentially.
00:03:36
Speaker
so When they petitioned the king for land in the Ohio country, They get it on three conditions. King George the second the the King George, not the one of the revolution, that's King George III, but King George the second who's reigning at this time, he gives them half a million acres of land west of the Allegheny Mountains.
00:03:55
Speaker
Alleghenies are like the the westernmost part of the Appalachians in what is now Pennsylvania. but he He gives them three conditions for all this land, lock quite a bit of land. They have to settle 100 families in the area, and then they have to build and maintain a fort with a garrison for those settlements.
00:04:15
Speaker
So those are the the conditions that they have for receiving this massive land grant, which right now is either has various natives living on it or is fairly empty.
00:04:28
Speaker
Okay, that makes sense. So it was kind of funded straight through the crown. And if they met those conditions, then not only did they get the land that I'm assuming they could drive the economic value out of it too, which was the real investment.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, we'll see a lot of land speculation, especially related to the Ohio ah country and the Ohio company. A lot of people want to buy or be granted these sections of land, of unexplored land, maybe land that no British citizen has ever even seen quite yet.
00:05:01
Speaker
But they want to buy and obtain this land, and then they can parcel it off and sell it to settlers later on the line. That's a lot of the thinking here. So I don't i think... I was going to say, i think importantly, too, the British didn't do too much background research here when they were when they were granting this land to the Ohio Company.
00:05:20
Speaker
King George didn't sit down with a map in front of him from the the War of Austrian Succession to see what France was claiming and what they weren't. Yeah, I'm sure it was it's a very abstract proposition in the European minds, both British and French, of what exactly the Ohio country was, because a lot of it was still unexplored.
00:05:41
Speaker
There were some traders that would make their way into that area. The French, they were going mostly through the Great Lakes and then down... on the western side of the Ohio country through rivers up to the Mississippi. But what is actually Ohio now was still mostly unexplored. So there's a lot of just claiming and then handing off and selling this land that both imperial powers don't know that well, and they really don't have much control over.
00:06:11
Speaker
so it makes for a very interesting situation. think there's also some confusion too, like on what the Ohio Valley actually consisted of. well because i i've heard some things where that that's considered to stretch all the way from some people say lake erie other people say um pitts modern day pittsburgh where the allegheny monongahela meet at all the way to present-day cincinnati to the mississippi but i don't think there was any clear understanding on either side of how far that boundary stretch of what consists of the ohio ohio valley and what didn't and i i know just personally from living in ohio that
00:06:47
Speaker
The Ohio River watershed is pretty, pretty large. It goes, you know, all the way up to modern day, like Columbus, I think in that region, before you get to the Great
Colonial Investments in the Ohio Country
00:06:57
Speaker
Lakes divide. So um I think it's pretty interesting when we talk about the Ohio Valley going forward that that consists of not just the or the Ohio River Valley is more than just the Ohio River. It's practically half of the state of Ohio.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely a good point. Yeah, at this point, the Ohio country is a pretty vague and ambiguous term. Both sides claim it, and both sides don't very know it too well.
00:07:24
Speaker
One interesting thing is that there's going to be, because you mentioned the political aspect to the Ohio company, Again, I don't know about its exact foundation, how political it was, but we're going to quickly see some colonial politicians and elites become investors in this company, especially colonial elites and politicians who are from Virginia and Pennsylvania, as both of these colonies claim area in the Ohio country.
00:07:51
Speaker
you know At this point, a lot of the western bounds of the British colonies are defined as essentially going all the way to the Pacific Ocean, even though they had not mapped out even half of North America's interior.
00:08:04
Speaker
But these a lot of these charters were just saying like, yeah our boundary is here to the north, here to the south, and then west, it goes as far as the Pacific Ocean.
00:08:15
Speaker
All the way to India. Essentially, yeah. so Some examples of investors in the Ohio company include our very own George Washington and Robert Dinwiddie, who was the- Yeah.
00:08:27
Speaker
And Robert Dinwiddie, who is the governor of Virginia and who is going to definitely come back later in this episode. They were investors and Robert Dinwiddie used his office to promote the company's interests, as we will see later on in this episode.
00:08:44
Speaker
A couple years after that, the Ohio company commissions Christopher Gist, who's also going to make a return in this episode, Side note, it's nice that we're moving from the abstract state of the world from last episode into the more concrete you know characters that make up the the stories from this war and that we'll see pop in and out of the story throughout the as we go.
00:09:08
Speaker
But Christopher Gist is going to be contracted by the Ohio Company to actually go out there and survey the land in 1751. What is this thing we just got 500,000 acres of?
00:09:23
Speaker
He's going to head west across the Appalachian Mountains, go along the Ohio River, going as far as Kentucky, modern day Kentucky, and the Indian trading hub of Piquelani in Western Ohio current currently.
00:09:38
Speaker
think it's now like the city of Pequot, Ohio, out in Western Ohio. Christopher Gist was a very interesting character. Definitely the kind of picture of a frontiersman as well versed in Indian relations and languages.
00:09:54
Speaker
And for that, he was a sought after guide and, uh, and, explorer for the area. And as we will see later, not to spoil anything, but he is likely credited with saving the United States.
00:10:07
Speaker
And, uh, we'll get into that a little bit in this episode, actually, which it's really interesting. Yes, we will. Another fun fact about him, most likely the first Protestant religious service in the Ohio country was conducted by him
French Efforts to Assert Control in the Ohio Valley
00:10:21
Speaker
on Christmas Day with some Native Americans in 1751 while he was out surveying this land. somewhere on the, I think on the Muskingum River in Southern Ohio. Do you know, was he a British Puritan or- It was Church of England, I believe. Church England. Okay. So what is now Anglican Episcopalian.
00:10:40
Speaker
Okay. But yeah. So not only are we seeing the entry of the imperial powers into the Ohio country, but also the respective religions that are that make up these imperial powers or are specifically endorsed by them.
00:10:56
Speaker
We're seeing those show up in the Ohio country as well. So almost immediately in response to this Ohio Company land grant 1748 and 49, the French are going to make their own... french are going to make their own kind of reinforcement of their claim to this region. So in 1749, the French governor general of New France at that time, who I believe was Roland Michel Barin de la Galisonnière, we'll just call him la Galisonnière,
00:11:31
Speaker
He will send out a very experienced French-Canadian officer to go on his own expedition. It's going to be quite different kind of expedition, though, from Christopher Gist just surveying the land and making some connections with the natives there.
00:11:47
Speaker
So he is going to send out Celeron. So Celeron, let me check my notes here for to get his full name.
00:12:00
Speaker
I think he's pretty commonly known as just Celeron. Yeah, that's usually his first. His full name, Pierre-Joseph Celeron de Blainville. And we'll just call him Celeron for this. episode So at this time, he was born in 1693 in Montreal. But by this time, he has had about 40 years of military service, especially in the Great Lakes and the Mississippi country.
00:12:25
Speaker
So this is kind of cream of the crop of French colonial officer. You know, he knows his way navigating Indian relations. He knows his way fighting in the the wilderness.
00:12:38
Speaker
He's a great guy to pick for the kind of expedition. And what this expedition is, he's going to be be taking a group of officers and militiamen and some Indians, and he's going to make a tour of the Ohio country.
00:12:52
Speaker
And on his way, he's going to be planting, burying these lead plates and also like nailing some some plates onto trees as they go, basically reiterating France's claim on the area.
00:13:07
Speaker
I wanted to add in something here. I found something in that book we mentioned last episode. I'm trying to remember the name of that book. It's like Struggle for North America, the French and Indian War.
00:13:21
Speaker
In that book, the author talks about Sutherland's expedition and how a lot of the plates that he he left were buried. He would bury them and like beneath a tree and would throw a few shovelfuls of dirt on top.
00:13:35
Speaker
And that, while made it so that those plates wouldn't move and they could be found later, especially if France was claiming, hey, we own this section. We've been here. Here's this plate.
00:13:45
Speaker
It also made it extremely difficult for British settlers to find the that these plates or ever even see them. So you would, what happened was you'd have ah English settlers come settle and then France would be like, oh, this plate was buried under this tree by three feet of dirt.
00:14:05
Speaker
We were actually here. So I think some of them, you're correct, he did nail on trees, but some of them, I believe this was towards like the beginning of the Ohio river where the near Pittsburgh, where the Allegheny and the Naga Hala collide. I think he buried a lot of those.
00:14:20
Speaker
So it was just kind of interesting where it's like a very ah common practice. And I know this too, just from being in real estate, that when we mark off property boundaries, still we, we bury lead, lead, like, I guess you'd call them like spikes or stakes or something of that nature or around property lines.
00:14:39
Speaker
And it comes from old colonial law that that is how you mark off boundaries. But in this case, it made it exceptionally harder for each side to know where they were actually at.
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, definitely not the most conspicuous way to assert your claim or your dominance over an area, considering you need a shovel to to find it. But yeah, I'll go in a little more detail about this expedition.
00:15:04
Speaker
So they left from Montreal, Celeron, and about 230 men. He had about 30 officers and soldiers, 180 Canadian militia. These are mostly younger guys who hadn't ourra not the the most disciplined, little rough and tumble.
00:15:23
Speaker
And then 20 Algonquin and Abenaki Indians. For some of the more notable people with him, he had his second in command, Claude Pierre Pecody de Contrecoeur, who we'll just call Contrecoeur.
00:15:35
Speaker
He's going to come up, I think, later this episode. If not this one, then definitely next one. Also, Officer Louis-Colon de Villiers. He's going to come up probably the next episode. And then Philippe Thomas Chabert de Joncaire, who we will just call Joncaire.
00:15:50
Speaker
He was a half French, half Seneca Indian interpreter. And they all left from... Oh, and there's also the priest and cartographer Joseph-Pierre de Bonne-Camp.
00:16:03
Speaker
So all of this, about 200 men total. Celeron noted that of these men, he said he had good officers and about 50 men who he could trust.
00:16:13
Speaker
So there if the commanding officer is a little iffy on half over half of his force, that tells you the kind of probably rough and tumble guys that made up this expedition. Not a great ratio.
00:16:25
Speaker
No, no. And I don't... couldn't find this in my research, but I believe this may have been the largest European force in the Ohio country up to this point, but I can't camp fully verify that. So you'll have to take my word for it.
00:16:44
Speaker
Also, fun fact from this expedition, just as we talked about with Christopher Gist, this is most likely the first Catholic mass that will be performed in the Ohio country from this expedition, but their route So they are going from Montreal to a French mission, like a a missionary establishment called La Présentation in the St. Lawrence.
00:17:06
Speaker
They go over to Fort Frontenac at the opening of the, or the source of the St. Lawrence, where it opens up into Lake Ontario. They go from there over to Fort Niagara, which is, i think, on our side, the the United States side of Niagara Falls.
00:17:23
Speaker
Then from there, with different portages and smaller streams and rivers, they go down into Lake Erie, portage over to the Allegheny River. ah so for reference, they left on...
00:17:36
Speaker
On June 15th, they left Montreal. By July 29th, they arrive in the Allegheny slash Ohio River area, and they will bury their first plate ah somewhere on the Allegheny River.
00:17:51
Speaker
They'll stop by Venango, which is like an Indian village with and english some English traders there. They're going to kick them out. And then they will go on down to Logstown.
00:18:03
Speaker
Now, Logstown is a very important location in what is now Western Pennsylvania. This is kind of the hub of Indian diplomacy in the area. there's It's called Logstown because there's a lot of log cabins there.
00:18:20
Speaker
But Indians from different tribes settled here, a lot of especially the Delaware and Shawnee Indians. And it was here where a lot of councils would take place, especially between the British and the Indians, sometimes the French and the Indians, different groups of Indians meeting together. was kind of the the diplomatic hub of the area.
00:18:43
Speaker
Then, and actually I went to Logstown just last week. Unfortunately, all that remains is, well, I won't spoil it. I made a little recording that all I'll add into the episode and I'll share with you after.
00:18:58
Speaker
but i made a note. So Logstown is that doesn't exist anymore. because i think it It does not exist anymore. It is part of the town of Ambridge, Pennsylvania now. and that's Okay, in Beaver County. Okay, that's what had thought.
00:19:12
Speaker
Yeah, there's a little, well, I won't spoil it too much, but no, it does not exist. And there's not much trace that it ever was there, unfortunately.
00:19:22
Speaker
I am currently at Logstown, or at least where it was located 250 and so years ago. Currently, on one side of the street, it's a residential area.
00:19:36
Speaker
On the other side of the street, there is pretty industrial, at least there's a some green patches here and there, some vegetation. But the only thing that would let you know that you're at a historical site is one boulder with a plaque on it and a historical marker near the road.
00:19:56
Speaker
All other traces that this was once a very important diplomatic and commercial hub for the Indians in the Ohio country. Well, there's nothing else that could let you know that.
00:20:08
Speaker
I'll go ahead and read the plaque. It Logstown, 1725 1758.
00:20:15
Speaker
A historic Indian village was located a short distance northwest of this spot. It was founded by Shawnees and later occupied also by Delawares, Senecas, Mohawks, and Wyandots.
00:20:27
Speaker
Here in 1748, Conrad Weiser, agent of Pennsylvania, negotiated a treaty with the Indians that opened the region west of the Allegheny Mountains to
Competing Territorial Claims by France and Britain
00:20:37
Speaker
Anglo-Saxon influence and development.
00:20:40
Speaker
June 11, 1752, the Treaty of Logstown was made between the Iroquois Indians and the Virginians, giving the latter the right to build a fort and establish a trading post at the Forks of the Ohio.
00:20:52
Speaker
Major George Washington held councils at Logstown with Tennekarison, Skarawadi, Shingas, and other Indian chiefs November 24 to 30, 1753, while on his important mission to Fort LaBeouf.
00:21:06
Speaker
Erected by Fort McIntosh Chapter, Daughters of the American Revolution, 1932. nineteen thirty two So while it would be great to see some reconstructions of one of the dozens or maybe even hundreds of log houses and cabins that the Indians lived at in Logstown, it is at least nice that there is something here and that this bit of history has not been completely overshadowed by modern development.
00:21:36
Speaker
All right. So from there, they go along the Ohio River, stopping on different tributaries until they get to the Great Miami River and then the Maumee River. And from there, they'll go back out into Lake Erie. To the Maumee. Fort Detroit. Yeah.
00:21:50
Speaker
Right in your backyard. And then back to Montreal. In total, it took five months or 148 dates And I've got the French translation, well, not translation, the original French of what was on these plates. And I'll try to translate it for us into English here.
00:22:10
Speaker
So here's one example of what were these messages they were putting on these plates and burying to assert their sovereignty over the the Ohio country. In the year 1749 of the reign of Louis XV, King of France, I, Saleron, commander of a detachment sent by mr la de la Galisonnière, the commanding general of the of New France, to reestablish tranquility in some savage villages and areas, have tear or have buried this plaque at the confluence of the Ohio and the Chadoquins.
00:22:45
Speaker
That must be their name for one of the rivers or tributaries into it. this 29th of July, next to the Ohio River, also called the Beautiful River, for a monument of renewing of possession that we have taken of the said river, Ohio, and of all those who fall in it, and of all the lands on both sides up to the sources of said rivers, as well as has enjoyed or should have enjoyed the preceding kings of France, and that they be...
00:23:16
Speaker
maintained by weapons and by treaties, especially by those of Ryswick, Utrecht and Ix-la-Chapelle. So that is what was written on these plates.
00:23:27
Speaker
All right, Jackson, I want you to draw me a detailed map of what boundary that is describing. So apparently from the from what this is saying, going by what we were talking about earlier, this is both sides of the Ohio River, so north and south, basically the entire drainage basin, entire watershed, all the way, I would imagine, up to the Mississippi by this definition.
00:23:47
Speaker
student code and Yeah. It was all land that the French crown enjoyed or should have enjoyed as well, which is extremely vague. I like that part.
00:23:59
Speaker
Yes. It's like, well, if we technically haven't had our sovereignty over it or really actually been around it at all, well, we should have. We should have, and it's ours. Yeah.
00:24:11
Speaker
Yeah. So of course, and this is at the same time, like we said before, the British colonies are defining their Western boundaries as on the other side of the continent. And of course, in between these massive rival claims are thousands and thousands of Indians that actually inhabit the area with with with mass. you know There's some French forts to the West and more the Illinois like Detroit, Mississippi area, but these are pretty sparse forts that have pretty sparse garrisons and trading posts, but there's no real settlement by the French or British anywhere in the Ohio country at this point.
00:24:48
Speaker
So as Salarant is going around the Ohio country planting these plates, he's running into some red flags for the French. He has noticed that the reception by the Indians is pretty, it's at the best, it's kind of neutral.
00:25:03
Speaker
You know, they're a little worried about why this big force of French are coming through and some of these claims they're making, even if they might not fully understand ah That's not the best case. In the worst case, they get some some rather hostile reception from the Indians, especially along the Ohio River, like in what is now Southern Ohio.
00:25:23
Speaker
The Indians, especially because of the cheaper trade goods as of late from the English, especially in Virginia and Pennsylvania, they are much more pro-English than they are pro-French right now, particularly the Shawnee Indians and the Miami Indians.
00:25:39
Speaker
They are much more fond of the English and they're they're not really crazy about Celeron marching around Ohio and making these grand decrees. And he's going to report this back to the colonial government in New France.
00:25:52
Speaker
And they are going to do a, because of this, a new massive push to try to more ingratiate themselves with the Ohio country Indians like they have with some of the Great Lakes and Upper Canada Indians. Yeah.
00:26:05
Speaker
So to kind of summarize this, there's the end of his journal. Side note, I tried finding his journal in the original French online. It was like impossible. I found lots of English translations of it.
00:26:17
Speaker
So I ended up just having to pull the English, but it seems maybe some of our historians are more... apt to digitize and look into this sector of Ohio, Pennsylvania history than some of the French are. like I think I would have to go to like an archive building in Paris to actually view like the French version of this journal. I guess it hasn't been digitized or made free online.
Escalating Conflicts in the Ohio Country
00:26:40
Speaker
Anyway. So one of the last parts of his journals is this. all that i can say is that the nations of these localities are very badly disposed towards the french and are entirely devoted to the english i do not know in what way they could be brought back if violence were to be used they would be notified of it and would take to flight they would find a great refuge with the flatheads from whom they are not very distant If our traders were sent there for traffic, they could not sell their merchandise at the same price as the English sell theirs on account of the many expenses they would be obliged to incur.
00:27:12
Speaker
So as he reports back, it's like, we can't use violence because that's not going to work. And we can't use trade because we just can't compete with the prices of the English right now. So I don't even know how we're going to get these Ohio Indians on the pro-French side.
00:27:28
Speaker
And that is Celeron's expedition. yeah And I believe that trade was a major part of why those Native American tribes favored the English at this time, because one, the English were not making huge advances into the territory yet.
00:27:44
Speaker
And second, I mean, the trade that they had with the the British at this time was far greater than what they were experiencing with the French and um I'm sure for some of them, this was probably one of their first encounters with the French, with this massive 300-man force marching through the Ohio River Valley.
00:28:03
Speaker
Yeah. And for our listeners, some of these kind of trade goods that the Indians would want, obviously muskets and gunpowder are huge. There's lot of like iron and steel tools as well. Like sometimes the colonials will make like steel tomahawks or like steel knives and trade those as well.
00:28:24
Speaker
sometimes like more jewelry or cloth, like shirts and stuff. But the the big one was definitely gunpowder and muskets. Because by this point, most Indians are using muskets and they're using those to hunt and to fight with. You know, the bow and arrow isn't really, it's kind of fallen out of,
00:28:42
Speaker
fashion in the last 100 to 200 years of contact with Europeans. So if they want to hunt, if they want to fight, they need more gunpowder. And the main way they're going to get that is from European traders.
00:28:55
Speaker
So they kind of have a ah reliance on these Europeans. And then the Europeans, of course, want pelts and furs and other things like that. They want alliances. And that is what they are looking out of the ah the Indian trade.
00:29:08
Speaker
Okay, that makes sense. And then I think there is a lot of, and following this expedition, I think France kind of moved in with some forts, correct? sir Yes, so we will get that a right after this next escalating tension moment in the Ohio country.
00:29:26
Speaker
So the last thing I wanted to talk about was the destruction of Picowolani. So we mentioned Picowolani as one of the places where Celeron stopped on his journey around the Ohio country in Western Ohio.
00:29:38
Speaker
It was established in just 1747. So it was only a couple of years old, but it very quickly grew to be one of the largest villages in the area, having even like thousands of Indians of many different tribes, but mostly Miami Indians settling there.
00:29:53
Speaker
George Krogan, he's a British colonial trader and a frontiersman and sometimes a diplomat. He had established a trading post in Piccolini in 1749.
00:30:06
Speaker
And natives started flocking there after that to get those trade goods, especially at cheaper prices than from going up to the French fort at Detroit and trading there. The chief was Mameskia, who was a Miami Indian, very, very, very pro-British.
00:30:22
Speaker
And there was some hostilities here when Celeron passed through. nobody Nobody died. The only death of the whole expedition was right near at the beginning when someone like fell out of a canoe on the way and died and hit his head on a rock.
00:30:34
Speaker
But there's no no violence between the French and the Indians, but there was definitely some hostility and they didn't have a great reception in Piccolani. At its height, it may have reached up to about 4,000 Indians living there and possibly up to even 50 English traders at the same time.
00:30:52
Speaker
Now, the French, they don't like this. It's diverting Indians from settling and trading around their fort in Detroit. They want to, and they don't like the the zealously pro-British Indians that are running the place.
00:31:06
Speaker
So they they want to destroy it or they want to kind of like teach them a lesson, but they just don't have the troops. They estimate it's going to be like, they need like a thousand soldiers or more if they wanted to kind destroy the trading posts and kick out the British from Pickle-Wilani.
00:31:21
Speaker
So a couple of years pass and they're just like, yeah, man, this is a huge thorn in our side. Eventually, Someone by the name of Charles Langlade, we'll just say Langlade, comes along. He is half French Canadian, half Ottawa.
00:31:39
Speaker
He is someone who's very bold, ambitious. By some sources, he has kind of like a volatile nature, kind of unpredictable, maybe a little aggressive. But he approaches the French and he will lead about 300 Indians from the Three Fires Confederacy. So that's the Ottawa Indians, the Potawatomis, and the Ojibwe.
00:31:59
Speaker
About 300 of these Indians and there will be him and then some sort of say there were a few French officers that ah participated or at least went along with this this group.
00:32:12
Speaker
they are going to attack Pikulani. we don't One source I was reading is a really interesting book called Wilderness Empire by Alan Eckert. It is kind of a cross between historical fiction and nonfiction.
00:32:28
Speaker
like It kind of imagines some possible dialogues or possible accounts of what might have happened using like whatever facts we know. So from that book,
00:32:40
Speaker
It may be that Charles Langlade had suffered like a great insult by the priest by the the leader of Piccolini, Mimeschia. I don't know if that actually happened or if that was the author trying to imagine a convincing backstory for why Charles Langlade would lead this risky venture to strike out at Piccolini. But it's possible that he had been insulted in some way by the Miami Indians living there.
00:33:05
Speaker
and From what you described, so it seems like At the very minimum, this probably was not sponsored by the French crown. So it's an odd thing. It's like the French wanted to do something about it, but they thought they just didn't have the resources and men.
00:33:22
Speaker
And then apparently with like a third of the men they thought they'd need, the Charles Anglade comes along. He probably gets the blessing of the French, but it is, I mean, it's like a 99% Indian force, the French they're french They're pro-French Indians, but yeah, i can't I couldn't tell from my research if it was explicitly like Celeron, who's now commanding the fort in Detroit after his expedition, if he is like, yes, Charles, I'm commissioning you, go.
00:33:50
Speaker
Or if it's like a happy coincidence, we're like, oh, sweet. Charles Langlade and his Indians are going to go attack Piccolini. Awesome. I couldn't tell if it was explicitly ordered or if it was just something the French were very happy to see regardless. Yeah.
00:34:05
Speaker
Sure, and I think like one difference between this time and now is you see in modern world, there's a lot of proxy wars that are fought between sponsored groups against another sponsored group. And I think the difference between then and now is now a country can come out and say immediately that, oh, we had nothing to do with that before the news has really spread far and wide.
00:34:27
Speaker
But here, and you'll see it doesn't really matter to the English whether or not the French crown ordered this attack. You have Frenchmen and yeah Native Americans that support the French that are attacking an English village. So it looks like the French are attacking the English in this village. And I think you'll you'll see that like kind of spreads before the before France could even disclaim any sort of intention or credit behind the attack.
00:34:55
Speaker
Yeah, you'll see that like with this incident, and especially in our next episode, when things are so murky on you know the edge of civilization or out in the frontier in the wilderness, it's hard to get verified.
00:35:10
Speaker
verified objective facts. you know The only things we draw from are like accounts from English who was people who escaped or accounts from French people are in the area. And both of those accounts are going to make the other side look as bad as possible and their side as good as possible. So you have to do some i'm parsing through and find the probable middle ground in a lot of these cases because, yeah, we just...
00:35:34
Speaker
The sources are often limited and they're going to have some kind of bias, whether small or great. ah So yeah, definitely hard to tell exactly what happened. and both sides will definitely use that to their advantage and exaggerate things.
00:35:50
Speaker
I think a lot times this show too, sorry, Jackson, I cut you off. But I think a lot of times we'll have like an English account and a French account at the same event. ah For the listeners, you can probably assume that the truth is somewhere in the middle.
00:36:01
Speaker
yes I wouldn't believe either side 100% because they will ah each side, as every nation history has done, will color it to be a little bit more favorable to them.
00:36:12
Speaker
Yes, everybody wants their team to be the good guys and the other team to be the bad guys. So this attack at Pikulani, Char Longlaude leads it. The village gets raided while most of the men are out hunting. So there's not but not too much of a a strong defense that can be coordinated.
00:36:30
Speaker
The English traders are either killed or imprisoned. And I think a couple of them, there were about 10 in the village at that time. This is June 1752. And the English traders are either killed or imprisoned, or and I think a couple of them escaped.
00:36:44
Speaker
The chief Mameschia, who was so zealously pro-British, he ends up getting killed And due to some of the rituals and the nature of Indian warfare and belief, he will get dismembered, boiled and eaten by the attacking Indians.
00:37:01
Speaker
out There goes our chance of monetization. Yeah. Yeah, not not a pretty sight. I don't recommend imagining it. But there was an Indian belief around this time that when you and you know defeated a powerful opponent, like an enemy chief or a rival or something, by consuming them, you would also consume their power and it would be like added to yours. So Sharlanglad, think it was him or but some of the other Indian chiefs that were with the raiding party.
00:37:32
Speaker
They will eat Mimeskia. And almost overnight, the English influence in Western Ohio country starts to recede. Some of the Indians at Pikulani just start moving back towards the the zone of influence around Detroit.
00:37:49
Speaker
Others will continue to support the British, but establish a new village elsewhere. But the the thorn in the side of the French in the Ohio country in Pikwilani and the English trading post there are now destroyed. And the village, i don't I don't know if the whole village is abandoned then because it was a large one and it wasn't completely destroyed or anything.
00:38:08
Speaker
But I don't remember if it just gets abandoned right immediately or just slowly it loses its prevalence and then people just move elsewhere. Yeah. But yeah, there is a, so that is the raid on Piccolini. There's just a lot of small escalating decisions and actions that are just piling up on top of each other between France and England here.
00:38:26
Speaker
Some other small examples, there's some English traders among the Indians that encourage them to obtain French scalps. And then there are French priests that are mixing religion and politics, telling Indian converts, for example, that and Jesus was a Frenchman crucified by the English.
00:38:44
Speaker
and therefore manipulating and encouraging their Catholic Indian converts to have more animosity towards the English. And then, of course, both nations putting pressure on the Iroquois to give support to their way.
00:38:59
Speaker
i found one quote from an unnamed Iroquois chief from a council in New York who had said, "'We are so hemmed in by you both that we have hardly a hunting place left.
00:39:10
Speaker
In a little while, if we find a bear in a tree,' there will immediately appear an owner of the land to claim the property and hinder us from killing it by which we live. We are so perplexed between you that we hardly know what to say or think, which I think really sums up the effect of these escalating tensions in the Ohio country.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, that was, that was great. I never, I've never heard of the rate on, Pickle, on modern day Pickle, Ohio. So that's, ah that's extremely interesting.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah, no I know when I was younger, i was a little disappointed because I felt like Ohio didn't have a lot of cool history. But ah the more I learn about this time period and this war specifically, the more I see that's not quite true.
00:39:55
Speaker
It's just Cortland, Ohio wasn't really the the hotbed of of interest and and all these these empires fighting and competing. No battlefields.
00:40:05
Speaker
Yes, no battlefields in Cortland from what I know. Yes. So right after this, the Marquis of Duquesne is going to become the governor general of New France 1752. He is a very pragmatic governor general. He knows that the Ohio country is an important area. He knows that to have a strong connection between Canada and Louisiana, they need to secure the waterways, especially the Ohio River.
00:40:39
Speaker
So he is going to become governor of New France, and he is going to commission new expedition. He's going to send down Paul Marat de la Malgue, and we'll just call him Marat or Paul Marine.
00:40:53
Speaker
Or maybe your ah great great, great, great, great uncle. Oh, yes. So fun fact about Paul Morin. My second cousin, 10 times removed, married Paul Morin de la Malque.
00:41:07
Speaker
So yes, buts I have an extremely, extremely weak tie this leader who is going to be commissioned to start moving towards the Ohio River Valley, the the forks of the Ohio, and build a fort there. So he's going to be building forts along his way starting in 1753.
00:41:23
Speaker
seventeen fifty three So when we said before that you couldn't believe it's either side's perspective on this issue. Now you can also not believe Jackson's perspective on this issue. is Everything i say is biased in favor of my second cousin, 10 times removed husband.
00:41:39
Speaker
i do it So Paul Marat, he's a member of the troop de la Marine, the French Marines, a long established French military unit in the new world, very experienced with fighting in the wilderness and with, and among Indians.
00:41:55
Speaker
He has about 30 years of experience by this point. He's about 60 years old. ah he also participated in the raid in King George's War that destroyed Saratoga, New York. So he has chosen to lead these troops. He brings down about 300 Marines and 1,700 Canadian militia.
00:42:14
Speaker
to start moving down. They're going to start in Fort Presque Isle, which is i think modern day, like right by Erie, Pennsylvania. At some point I'd like to go up there. There's not like a museum or anything, but they arrive in early summer, 1753. walls this fort, 12 16 foot high.
00:42:29
Speaker
the walls of this fort twelve to sixteen foot high And then he's going to you know leave some people there to continue building fort and then push further south and make Fort LaBeouf in mid-summer 1753. This is modern day. I think it is ah might be Franklin, Pennsylvania. There is a museum there and I would like to go at some point.
00:42:49
Speaker
Just have not had a free weekend in a long time. this We have some descriptions of this fort, I think from Washington's visit later on that we'll talk about. It had nine cannons, which was pretty considerable firepower for like a fort in what is pretty much the middle of nowhere to the colonial powers at this point.
00:43:08
Speaker
It had a guardhouse, a chapel, physician's lodgings, commander's stores, and then outside were the barracks, walls about 12 feet high. Yeah. And then while they are building Fort Leboeuf, he will send Jean Caire, who participated in Celeron's expedition, who is also coming along here.
00:43:30
Speaker
He's going to send him along with some troops to go seize the English trading post at Venango, which John Fraser had made. So they're going to seize his trading post. And the following year, they'll start making the Fort Machaut there in what is now Venango.
00:43:49
Speaker
During this time, though, it is rough going for the French. There's a lot of sickness, a lot of fatigue. It's grueling work. It must have been a particularly hot summer in 1753. And he's seeing his numbers start to drop quickly due to illness. Not necessarily ah dying, but just becoming like not able to work. He's starting...
00:44:07
Speaker
to get down to like 75% workforce, 50% workforce. It might even, I think it might even drop below that. And Paul Marin himself, he is going to die from sickness during this ah expedition.
00:44:20
Speaker
So to replace him will be Jacques Legardeur de Saint-Pierre. And he could probably, maybe not a full episode, but this guy, I did some research on him and he's kind of like a legend, I think.
00:44:34
Speaker
So this guy, but we'll just call him either, we'll call him St. Pierre. He was born 1701 in Montreal, part of the Marines. He um yeah had extensive experience all over the continent.
00:44:49
Speaker
And when I say that, I mean like actually all over. Like he was just in, i think, Wisconsin before getting this assignment to keep building these forts southwards. He had been posted in Michigan,
00:45:02
Speaker
He had been down in Alabama during some of the French wars with and against certain Indian tribes in the South. He had been in upstate New York in King George's War, participating in that raid on Saratoga along with Palmarin.
00:45:15
Speaker
He had been to Acadia later in King George's War. And he had even been as far as Manitoba and Saskatchewan, commanding troops and building forts up there. Wow. this is God. He's a solid war.
00:45:28
Speaker
Yeah, all of places the British couldn't even dream of at this point. He had you know traveled through and fought through, which is pretty cool. One interesting incident I had read about um and when he was in what is now Manitoba, there was some kind of conflict against the Assiniboine Indians or Assiniboine.
00:45:49
Speaker
I'm not really sure how the English version of that name is pronounced. But he was in a fort with just five others as the the other like 20 men or so were out hunting and about 200 Assiniboine Indians emerged on the fort. I don't know the particulars of this war, but obviously they couldn't stand up to that. So Pierre took a like a fire brand, like a fire poker,
00:46:11
Speaker
ran to the gunpowder storage room and shouted, Tu et moi, je ne mourrai pas seul, which is, kill me, I'm not going to die alone. And then he started moving like he was going to light the powder, which spooked off the Indians, giving giving them enough time to escape to safer areas in the East.
00:46:31
Speaker
So this guy, lots of experience, kind of a badass. He has high recommendations from other people Australia. French colonial society, calling people like Vaudreuil, who will be governor after Duquesne, calling him full of zeal, talents, and intelligence.
Washington's Early Life and Role in the Ohio Expedition
00:46:49
Speaker
General Montcalm, who will come later in this war, called him a man of merit.
00:46:53
Speaker
He's respected by French allied Native Americans as well. So this guy, he's going to kind of a legend. Also, he is my third cousin, nine times removed, first cousin.
00:47:09
Speaker
wow so that's why you're pumping him up. No, but yeah. So he he's going to take over the expedition building forts. And I like just diving into some of these characters. We will see him pop up later this episode and in one more, at least one more episode in the future.
00:47:25
Speaker
But at this time, the Iroquois are annoyed because the French are firmly establishing themselves. They're going to say, hey, what's the deal? But also, the British are going to finally take notice and see all this activity, hear reports of it, and they are going to do something. I'll shift it over to you, Matt, and you can talk about who notices this and what they do about it and their backgrounds.
00:47:53
Speaker
Will do. Before I get into that, I do want to give our listeners a quick background of maybe one of the more important characters of this war, but will certainly become the most important character in American history.
00:48:08
Speaker
ah George Washington. to the bomb Yeah, George. Yeah, so this war focuses on an area of George's life that isn't really well known. a lot of people know ah George Washington once he started his service in the in the U.S. or not, it wouldn't be the U.S. s military, but the colonial military in the revolution. So this this war focuses on his upbringing and his younger years.
00:48:37
Speaker
When he was first kind of commissioned in this war, it was in his early twenties. So he was just kind of out of, out, out like leaving, leaving the nest, so to speak, and, uh, kind of getting his feet wet. And we'll see that with that age comes a little, uh, bit of, uh, native tip or ah what's the word I'm trying to think of. Naivety. Naivety. Uh, yes, yes. Uh, naivety in how he, he operates and, uh, leads to some mistakes, but also kind of sets the foundation for, uh,
00:49:10
Speaker
a budding military career that will we'll help him in the future. So just to start off with, so Washington had many siblings. So he was the eldest son of Augustine Washington. And that was with Augustine's second wife, Mary Ball Washington, who was George's mother, before marrying Mary Ball.
00:49:32
Speaker
Augustine did have other children with his first wife. In that marriage, I believe he had four children. So George had four half-siblings. And then George was the oldest of three, I believe.
00:49:47
Speaker
So actually, no, I take that back. So from his his marriage to Mary, they had six children and and then they had three half-siblings. So altogether... George had, I believe, eight siblings.
00:49:59
Speaker
So there was a pretty large family, which was not uncommon at this time. However, this family was not, and they weren't in the wealthier class of Virginia, of Virginia families. They were more of ah and Virginia gentry, you would so speak. So they were sophisticated family that owned land and a plantation, but They weren't of the most elite class. So, so George wasn't at all born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He kind of had to work for what he would accomplish.
00:50:29
Speaker
So just giving some more background here. When George was three, the family moved to Epsilwasum, which was later called hunt little hunting Creek. Also Mount Vernon.
00:50:40
Speaker
If you've heard of it, I've visited Mount Vernon a few times. It's a really cool site to see where George Washington lived and grew up. and it's very interesting. and then after they, they moved to Mount Vernon, they actually left Mount Vernon and moved to Ferry farm near Fredericksburg in 1738. Um, and then shortly after they made that move, George's father, Augustine died when George was only 11. So at 11, uh, George kind of had to step up for his mother. And just as a reminder, you know, George did have three older half siblings, but he was the oldest of his mother's children. So he did have to step up for his mother and kind of be the man in the household when his father died.
00:51:18
Speaker
Although, as we'll see, he did really look up to Lawrence, which was his oldest half-sibling. Okay, yeah, I'd heard about Lawrence and how much, like, the connection that they had, but I didn't know he was the half-brother, not the actual brother.
00:51:33
Speaker
Yeah, Lawrence was hugely important in George's life, as we'll see, in kind of getting him into the connections that he needs to to to get some of these appointments. So we'll see that kind of develop further on.
00:51:44
Speaker
um But when his father died, so the family didn't have much. ah the Augustine's passing left them with Ferry Farm, where they were currently at, which George inherited straight from his father. So Lawrence did not get Ferry Farm. Lawrence took Mount Vernon.
00:52:02
Speaker
But George got Ferry Farm. um He did have 10 slaves there. So a modest plantation. And, you know, he didn't really have the wealth for a formal education abroad.
00:52:16
Speaker
So his half brothers, I believe, Lawrence and Augustine Jr. had had studied over in England, but George did not have that opportunity. So ah he kind of had to just make do with what he had.
00:52:27
Speaker
He had a modest education in ah in the States, but ah or in the in the colonies at that time. this but did not get that aristocratic upbringing that his half brothers had.
00:52:41
Speaker
And then at 14, so I mean, he was a young teenager at this time, and he's already making these decisions kind of of his future and having step up into adulthood. When he was 14, which that would have been when I was a freshman in high school, he wanted to join the British Navy.
00:53:00
Speaker
ah which Lawrence also wanted him to do. But his mother, Mary, did not want that. ah She was afraid of losing him in the military. ah So he kind of turned down that role. And we would have actually seen, he probably would have gotten that that enlistment and then maybe an appointment in the British Navy as an officer. But his mother's veto of that kind of paved the way for the future. So that's hugely important.
00:53:23
Speaker
Thank you, George's mother. Yes. yeah Kind of a mama's boy there. you know ah She didn't want to lose him. And so he turned to a different profession, which was surveying.
00:53:34
Speaker
It was a very practical career for someone of his status at that time. it was it was a way to get out and see the world and also have use to these these new colonies and needed surveyors to to move west. And we'll see that makes him very valuable.
00:53:49
Speaker
so Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And moving on, you know ah lawrence's ah Lawrence Washington, so George's half brother, he was a militia officer at this time.
00:54:00
Speaker
He inherited Mount Vernon. He married Ann Fairfax, who is from another powerful family, the Fairfax family in Virginia. And that is kind of the spark that got Washington connected to Dinwiddie, who was the governor of Virginia at this time.
00:54:18
Speaker
Dinwiddie, as we'll see, had a very personal stake in the, I think was the Virginia, ohio company. Is that right, Jackson? i It was a certain charter. think there are companies that might be referring to the same thing, or there might have been like a Virginia company of Ohio and then the Ohio company, or maybe those are the same thing.
00:54:37
Speaker
Oh, you know, I have it in my notes right here. it's the Ohio Company of Virginia. There it is. So little a little misnomer there, but it was a charter for the state or the colony of Virginia to take up land in the Ohio Valley.
00:54:51
Speaker
So I'm kind of getting ahead of myself here. So then at 17, in 1749, Washington was appointed a surveyor of Culpeper County. And that kind of gave him the mapping skills and the knowledge of the frontier of Virginia, which kind of led into his mission that we'll see.
00:55:09
Speaker
So Dinwiddie knew Lawrence Washington because Lawrence was a huge investor in the Ohio Company of Virginia. And he knew that Lawrence's brother was a renowned surveyor.
00:55:21
Speaker
so in So 1747, when Lawrence was kind of getting really involved in the Ohio company, Dinwiddie said, you know, we need we need to start getting an expedition line here to go out and kind of not only see what the French are are doing in this area by building like the fords like Fort Leboeuf, but also we need to start laying claims to this area too, like because they had heard of these these attacks on the Ohio frontier.
00:55:53
Speaker
And a lot, like I said, Dinwiddie and Lawrence all had pretty heavy investments in this area. So each account of that was kind of hurting their own pocket and they wanted to get out ahead of it.
00:56:04
Speaker
But then it early in George's life still, so we're still around his like late teens, early 20s, Lawrence died of tuberculosis, which was pretty devastating for George. But he did inherit Mount Vernon.
00:56:18
Speaker
from that And when Lawrence died, Lawrence at that time was a major in the Virginia militia, and Washington will come to inherit that role as major, which then made him a direct candidate for Dinwiddie's expedition into the Ohio Valley.
00:56:36
Speaker
So okay that's just a brief overview of George's life. I mean, we but you do a whole podcast on George Washington's life. It's certainly super fascinating. I think it's, it really stood out to me that he wasn't from the Virginia elite class growing up. ah He did have to work for, for what he received. And even though connections did get him to prominence, we'll see. It's not an easy journey for him. And a lot of his, uh,
00:57:03
Speaker
his future actions are are wrought with, uh, with strife and a lot of hard work and sacrifice. So, uh, it's very interesting. Yeah. So it sounds like he was just at the the very bottom level of the, the established rank of society. Like,
00:57:22
Speaker
You know, he wasn't some indentured so like servant scratching away at the dirt for 10 years for his freedom. But among the notables in Virginia, he was kind of like a nobody and he really had to to kind of make his name known and actually do some things and work to become the the man that everybody knows.
00:57:43
Speaker
Yeah, I, that's exactly correct. I would consider him more in like what we would think of today is like middle-class. Uh, so he had, their family had enough money to make it. And I don't, I don't think they were overly stressed with money. They had land, which was a huge, huge thing at this time. And as I said, they did own slaves. So they weren't in the aristocrat and they weren't an aristocrat family by any, by any means. But they also, as you said, they weren't like indentured servants. They, they owned land.
00:58:10
Speaker
And so I think that helped him a little, um, And it certainly helped Lawrence as he had the the foreign education in Britain before coming back to join the Virginia militia. And without Lawrence, i I doubt, you know, George would have ever made it that far. I'd say that he was incredibly important, not only for development of Washington, but also the country is understatement.
00:58:33
Speaker
So let's get into Dinwiddie's first expedition. And if you'd like, I have the letter he wrote to George Washington commissioning him to go on this expedition. So whenever that is propitious, I can read that if you'd like.
00:58:48
Speaker
That is, that's fantastic. So before we get into that, I just want to talk about a little bit about why Dinwiddie took such an aggressive stance and a lot of it I already touched on before.
00:59:00
Speaker
He was a massive investor in the Ohio company. And I think that's probably an understatement as well. He had a lot of money in the Ohio Company of Virginia. So even like if these French french forts weren't a large deal at this time, they weren't to him because he was seeing his pockets go up in smoke.
00:59:20
Speaker
And just to give some perspective. So of the acres in the region that were granted to the Ohio Company of Virginia, believe Dinwiddie, could have gained financially from up to like 500,000 of them.
00:59:35
Speaker
So it's a large portion of the entire grant that he, uh, he could have received money from, that was kind of in jeopardy. So, so the last thing he wanted was the French to snatch it, this juicy grant he just got.
00:59:52
Speaker
And, Yeah, without settlement and trade in that area, it would have been useless. So it wasn't really even from a strategic standpoint that the British wanted that land. It was almost all economic and trade with the Native Americans was very profitable for the British.
01:00:09
Speaker
So I think just protecting that, I really don't even know how much political thought went into it. it was I think it was mostly economic based, but and Definitely wasn't something where Dinwiddie said, oh, we need to go secure this land for Great Britain.
01:00:24
Speaker
right We need to secure this land so our colonists can settle here and trade with but the Native Americans, not the French. Sure. So, yeah. So we're now in October of 1753. This is when Washington first sets out from Williamsburg, Virginia.
01:00:42
Speaker
Jackson, do you want to read the text of Dinwiddie's letter? I feel like this would be a great time. Perfect, perfect time. So to George Washington Esquire, one of the adjutant generals of the troops and forces in the colony of Virginia, I reposing special trust and confidence in the ability, conduct, and fidelity of you, the said George Washington, have appointed you my express messenger.
Washington's Diplomatic Mission to the French
01:01:07
Speaker
And you are hereby authorized and empowered to proceed hence with all convenient and possible dispatch to that part or place on the river Ohio where the French have lately erected a fort or forts, or where the commandant of the French forces resides, in order to deliver my letter and message to him.
01:01:26
Speaker
And after awaiting not exceeding one week for an answer, you are to take your leave and return immediately back. To this commission, i have set my hand and caused the great seal of this dominion to be affixed at the city of Williamsburg, the seat of my government, this 30th day of October in the 27th year of the reign of His Majesty George II, King of Great Britain, in the year of our Lord, 1753. Very eloquent demand letter that was yeah just Just wait until we get to the the actual letter that Washington was supposed to hand to the French leader.
01:02:02
Speaker
I've got that one. That one is even more fun and elegant. Fantastic. Yeah, so yeah thanks for finding that. I think we talked about this before the episode, but I cannot find those letters.
01:02:15
Speaker
And I think it was because I was trying to find the French versions of them. I cannot find them. And I ended up going to the ah French National Archives website, trying to hunt for them. And I found accounts for of them in Washington's journal, in actually the British archives.
01:02:31
Speaker
I couldn't find the actual text, so I'm very impressed with Yes, I will share with you an excellent website. It's like founders.org or.archive or something, but it has just like tons and tons of digital copies of letters from the colonial times. So you can like search through like all letters to George Washington from, you know, so-and-so or all letters from Robert Dinwiddie from these years onwards.
01:02:57
Speaker
So I will share that with you after this episode. no Awesome. Awesome. ah Yeah, so just moving on here. yeah So I said they departed in October of 1753 from Williamsburg, Virginia.
01:03:10
Speaker
And as Jackson read, you know, the letter they watched, it was originally tasked to give that to the French commander at Fort Leboeuf. His party consisted of a group of six people ah that included frontiersman Christopher Gist, who we've talked about a little bit before.
01:03:25
Speaker
um As Jackson had mentioned, Gist had already been in the Ohio Valley and was a well-seasoned surveyor and was extremely helpful for Washington, not only navigating to Fort Leboeuf, but making it back alive. And that's a little foreshadowing.
01:03:40
Speaker
And also in this party was interpreter Jacob von Braun and then just others, you know, that were skilled at wilderness travel that a accompanied Washington. The journey was pretty arduous. It it covered over 500 miles round trip, grueling ah hike through the rugged, you know, Allegheny Mountains, the Ohio Valley.
01:03:58
Speaker
And this is in the the end of fall, beginning of winter too. So it's not the ideal travel season that people usually make these kinds of trips in. Correct. And from having traveled to the, these mountains, and actually, I always just recently around like, you know, the Cumberland Gap and the Blue Ridge Mountains in Maryland, that area, it's extremely dense. And the areas is even now when it's developed, I couldn't even imagine foot travel through the area.
01:04:27
Speaker
And basically what they were walking through was, you know, animal tracks, essentially. So Yeah, or old Indian pads and stuff like that. Old Indian pads, yeah. You had mentioned going through Cumberland. That's very fitting because where they had enlisted, Christopher Gist and some of the others was Wills Creek, which is now Cumberland, Maryland. So you were seeing like pretty much the exact geography of where they had passed through.
01:04:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's honestly inspiring that they were able to walk. at that far um feel very out of shape but so yeah so washington's journey took him from as you said from wills creek all the way to the forks of of the ohio or the allegheny halo rivers converge which is as we've mentioned many times before is now modern day pittsburgh and when he was there washington kind of made a note of this point and said that that would be a fantastic site for british fort um which we will see sure is a good idea washington
01:05:29
Speaker
Yeah, we will see it's an idea that not only did he have, other people have that idea as well. So to make a note and for now. So as Jackson said, you know, they they were going through November and December when this this journey took place. Not the best time to travel through the mountains.
01:05:45
Speaker
ah They kind of had to fight off, you know, snow, rain, freezing temperatures. But and another thing in this area, they were walking through a lot of Native American land. So one of their main objectives, not only delivering this letter to the French, but it was also establishing significant Native American support in the region.
01:06:03
Speaker
So they make it to Logstown, as Jackson had previously used. Logstown. And they meet a very important character named Tana Creason. Tana Creason is a Seneca chief who was also known as the Half King.
01:06:17
Speaker
And there they also met other Iroquois leaders. At that time, the Iroquois were not fully on the British side, although we will see they eventually kind of shift over that way.
01:06:29
Speaker
But Washington was actually a very good diplomat. And not only was he respectful of the Native American culture, he was very good at making promises, even if those promises weren't always founded.
01:06:44
Speaker
Does that mean he was good or he was bad it? He was a good speaker, we'll say that. Which again, that comes back to help him in the future as well. so But he won Tana Creason's support at the time, mainly promising him that the British would support Tana Creason's alliance in the area. and With that approach, Tana Creason joined the party and and pressed on with Washington on his trip.
01:07:10
Speaker
And there were also a couple other notable Indians that joined at this point. So Tenagresen, he was the half king of Logstown, like you said. He was appointed by the Iroquois to oversee the Delaware Indians in Logstown and the Ohio country in general.
01:07:28
Speaker
There was also Skarawadi, who was a think he was Seneca? No, Oneida. He was Oneida of the Iroquois League, and he was the half king over the Shawnee in the Ohio country. alongside Tenegreesen.
01:07:42
Speaker
So like Logstown was mostly Shawnee and Delaware Indians, but they had these Iroquois basically like chiefs or lieutenants or you know these overseers over them to make sure that they were acting in the Iroquois' interests and they weren't know stepping out of line. But Skarawadi is also going to join the party and Gaiasuta who i believe will have a friendship with Washington, even though the course of the war will lead them on opposite sides.
01:08:10
Speaker
So all three of these will join. Tenegris, and like you said, very pro-British, anti-French. One book I have, The French and Indian War in Western Pennsylvania, mentions him having staked his reputation and the fortunes of the Ohio natives on the English.
01:08:26
Speaker
So he ends up going all in for the British, which will lead to some drastic actions in the next episode. But go ahead, carry on. Yeah, no, that's excellent background.
01:08:37
Speaker
And I'm going to probably need your help in this next section with some of these French names. I got you. I got you. We're going start getting into Washington, encountering the French, and it's a little hairy. So at Fort LaBeouf, when Washington finally makes it. So first they end up getting to Venango, which is a French outpost right before Fort LaBeouf.
01:08:55
Speaker
Yes, out where they have just kicked out John Frazier and now Jean Caire is kind of managing the area before they have started building Fort Marshall. Correct. And that is near present day Waterford, Pennsylvania.
01:09:08
Speaker
So you of those that live in this region might know that area. So then at Fort LaBeouf, Washington meets the French commander of the fort at that time was Jaques.
01:09:18
Speaker
I'm going try these and then you can tell me how to pronounce. Jaques, le gardeur de Saint-Pierre. ah Five out of ten.
01:09:29
Speaker
Okay. Jaques, le gardeur de Saint-Pierre. Perfect. Okay. Who was a seasoned officer? He was in his six He's a legend. Yes.
01:09:40
Speaker
And as we've said, you know, extensive experience in frontier diplomacy. it and When Washington arrived, he presents Dinwiddie's letter. And we'll see. we've we kind of joked about this. Would you like me to read it?
01:09:54
Speaker
Yes, I would. That would be great at this time. Okay, so Dinwiddie's letter that he hands to Pierre to look it over is, Sir, the lands upon the River Ohio in the western parts of the colony of Virginia are so notoriously known to be the property of the crown of Great Britain that it is a matter of equal concern and surprise to me to hear that a body of French forces are erecting fortresses and making settlements upon that river within His Majesty's dominions.
01:10:26
Speaker
The many and repeated complaints I have received of these acts of hostility lay me under the necessity of sending, in the name of the king, my master, the bearer hereof, George Washington Esquire, one of the adjutant generals of the forces of this dominion, to complain to you of the encroachments thus made and of the injuries done to the subjects of Great Britain in violation of the law of nations and the treaties now subsisting between the two crowns.
01:10:52
Speaker
If these facts be true, and you think fit to justify your proceedings, I must desire you to acquaint me by whose authority and instructions you have lately marched from Canada with an armed force, and invaded the King of Great Britain's territories, in the manner complained of, that according to the purport and resolution of your answer, I may act agreeably to the commission I am honored with from the King, my Master.' However, sir, in obedience to my instructions, it becomes my duty to require your peaceable departure.
01:11:23
Speaker
and that you would forbear prosecuting a purpose so interruptive of the harmony and good understanding which his majesty is desirous to continue and cultivate with the most Christian king.
01:11:34
Speaker
I flatter myself that you will be pleased to receive Major Washington with the evidences of courtesy and politeness which are natural to your nation, and I shall be at the height of satisfaction if you send him back with a reply conforming to my wishes for a durable peace between us.' I have the honor to be, sir, your very humble Robert Dinwiddie.
01:11:55
Speaker
Oh, that was a very gentlemanly. and Yeah. I got a, you kind of love some of the language used. Like, I just love that first line, like the lands of the Ohio are so notoriously known to be the property of great Britain.
01:12:09
Speaker
And then, you know I just love the polite send offs. Like I have the honor to be, you're very humble Robert Dinwiddie. I don't know. I just love those flourishes. is uh yeah it's like relatively threatening but also we're going to say this as eloquently as possible to show that we are more uh more apt on this than you are but yeah so it's even funnier i don't know if you found the reply from yes i did i have that to perfect okay so we can we can read that in a second so while washington presents to witty's letter to the commander's name here
01:12:44
Speaker
at Fort Leboeuf. The meeting was very civil. and You'll see this throughout. We joked about before the 18th century diplomacy at this time, even though the ah French commander in Washington knew that they were rivals and yeah they had just gone out of war with each other in King George's War.
01:13:03
Speaker
They didn't greet each other with weapons drawn. It was like inviting a friend over to your house and hosting them. very cordial. He offered Washington his main quarters and gave them food and you know really sheltered them from the journey, let them and rest. Also, in addition to this very generous hospitality, the French at the soon-to-be Fort Machaut and here in Fort LaBeouf will be also trying to really use their hospitality to appeal to the Indians that came with Washington. And they're trying to kind of
01:13:37
Speaker
you know incentivize them. They're trying to work on them during these these talks and conversations and trying to get them to abandon the British and join the French right in front of Washington. Yeah, which is, it's funny because we'll see this 18th century diplomacy between French or between France and England.
01:13:55
Speaker
But then when combat breaks out, we'll see the, uh, the very aggressive nature of the natives. It kind of leaves both sides kind of appalled by it because they're like, Oh yeah, we're so, we're gentlemen. We,
01:14:08
Speaker
we give each other quarters and we will let you leave with one cannon as a sign of our hospitality. If if you surrender a fort and stuff, and you'll see the natives have a very different idea of warfare at the time. But as you said, Jackson, right now they're using the civility to win over the natives and say, hey, come to our side because we're so nice.
01:14:28
Speaker
um But we'll see eventually. That's not really what gets the natives on your side. It's more about the promise of plunder and honor and in those types of things from warfare. But regardless, so Yeah, just just going on. So basically what this French commander, St. Pierre, tells Washington is that, you know, he like the french the French are presenting legitimate territorial claims on the behalf of France.
01:14:56
Speaker
And essentially it's over his head to respond to this letter in a way, because he says that, you know, this matter should go to the attention of the governor general New France, which Jackson, I'll need your help here.
01:15:12
Speaker
Michael and G Duquesne. I know Duquesne. De Menville. Michel-Ange Duquesne. Thank you. Thank you, sir. And so really it was kind of, you know, I can't answer this. You're going to have to talk my manager situation.
01:15:28
Speaker
Yeah, it was definitely a talk to my manager. If you want, I can read through it. but That it don't be and would be great. Yeah, I would love to hear that. Sure, yeah. So it is translated into English. sir as i have the honor of commanding here in chief mr washington delivered me the letter which you wrote to the commander of the french troopsop i should have been glad if you had given him orders or he had been inclined to proceed to canada to see our general to whom it belongs rather than to me to set forth evidence of the incontestable rights of the king my master
01:15:59
Speaker
to the land situated along the ohio and to contest the pretensions of the king of great britain there too "'I shall transmit your letter to the Marquis Duquesne. "'His reply will be a law to me, "'and if he order me to communicate it to you, sir, "'you may be assured that I will dispatch it forthwith. "'As to the summons you send me to retire, "'I do not think myself obliged to obey it.' Whatever may be your instructions, mine bring me here by my general general's order, and I entreat you, sir, to be assured that I shall attempt to follow them with all the exactness and determination which can be expected from a good officer.
01:16:37
Speaker
I do not know that anything has happened during the course of this campaign which can be construed as an act of hostility or as contrary to the treaties between the two crowns. The continuation whereof interest and pleases us as much as it does the English.
01:16:51
Speaker
If you had been pleased to go into detail regarding the facts which caused your complaints, I should have had the honor of answering you in the most satisfactory manner possible for me. I have made it a duty to treat Mr. Washington with all the respect owing to your dignity and his personal merit.
01:17:06
Speaker
And I flatter myself, sir, that he will do me the justice to be my witness for it with you, as well as the evidence of deep respect with which I have the honor to be, sir, your very humble and very obedient servant, Le Gardeur de Saint-Pierre, from the fort on the Rivière-aux-Beuf.
01:17:24
Speaker
That's a beautifully written way to say you wrote this to the wrong person. no which for a 500 mile round trip journey is a devastating result, not for Washington so much, but more for Dinwiddie as we'll see.
01:17:44
Speaker
But yeah, so as Jackson read, you know, the French don't really have any plan on going anywhere. And it it also begs the question too, and I kind of wondered this when i was reading into it, like why did Dinwiddie write the letter to the commander of the fort?
01:18:01
Speaker
when he knew that such a request probably would have to go to the governor general de France, Jackson, do you know anything, any, any sort of like background on that as to why he would have written it to just the commander?
01:18:14
Speaker
Cause I know Dinwiddie's main issue wasn't just Fort LaBeouf. You know, it was the entire French settlement in the Ohio river Valley. That was the main issue. So I wonder if that was just short sighting this on Dinwiddie's part, or if he thought it was more eloquent to write it to the governor.
01:18:30
Speaker
wonder I wonder if maybe it was just like a time thing. Like, well, the commander of the French forces surely has some authority. He's closer. i need to get someone over there now.
01:18:41
Speaker
And again, like this journey was a fall and winter journey, which if it could have waited until the next spring and summer, then and probably would have done that. But I think he felt the sense to act very fast and immediately.
01:18:55
Speaker
And this could also just be like, well, I did my due diligence. Like I, I made a paper trail. I sent a request telling them to leave. And, i think what we'll see is technically before he gets the response back before Washington returns, he already has his next steps in motion. Like regardless of what the answer would have been,
01:19:15
Speaker
um So I think it was it might have just been formalities or creating a paper trail in case he gets like in trouble later down the
Outcomes and Implications of Washington's Journey
01:19:23
Speaker
line. Like you said, like, well, I gave them a summons to leave.
01:19:26
Speaker
I mean, we all claim this territory, don't we? So I'm just acting proper. Yeah. No, it it reminds me a lot of... You know, like what I do for works, when I'm sending a demand letter on behalf of my clients or something to somebody else, you really, like you don't really expect a response at all a demand letter. It's just kind of like a formality you send out say, hey, we gave you a choice.
01:19:50
Speaker
You didn't take it. So now we're going to take action. um Which having Dinwiddie, you know, kind of prepare while Washington was out, with the kind of signals that as well that, yeah.
01:20:01
Speaker
It wasn't ever really meant to to do anything to the French, maybe. Just kind of state the claim and then give a reason. for Yeah. And you got to you got to think like the expenses and manpower used by the French to establish their forts. There is absolutely no way they're just going to blow up their forts and head back to Canada. Like this it's already been set in stone. they're They're not, they are not by any means just going to be like, oh, oh, my bad. I guess I'm going to leave now. Like this is, It's sunk cause to the extreme. Like, no, nothing's going to dislodge them other than an attack of overwhelming force.
01:20:38
Speaker
Yes. And then i know I think we're going on pretty long in this episode. Apologies. Apologies, listeners, which I think we're both really, I mean, no, they're eating this up. i wood up They're loving it.
01:20:50
Speaker
We'll make longer episodes as this goes on, probably because we, we just love time. i think we can wrap up probably in ten minutes uh we'll aim for that sure yeah um so i do kind of want to get into the return journey because that's where yeah christopher gist kind of starts shining uh so as we mentioned before when they traveled to fort labeuf that was in november and december the stay at fort labeuf wasn't long so they do uh they do return from fort labeuf in mid-december being from ohio and jackson being from ohio we both know that in winter the ohio area and pennsylvania and
01:21:27
Speaker
gets very cold, i'm very, very, uh, especially if you're close to the lake. Yes. it's Extremely frigid. um and then also they have a lot of rivers in their past. So they had to cross the Allegheny river again.
01:21:41
Speaker
ah and then some rivers in Virginia and through the, and through the Cumberland Valley and the Appalachians, uh, and part of this, as I said, they did have to cross the Allegheny river, which was the largest river they had to cross on their journey back.
01:21:55
Speaker
And at this point in the year, the Allegheny River was completely frozen over. So they tried to, well, it wasn't completely frozen over. I guess that was the problem. They were hoping it was going be completely frozen. It was more chunks of ice on the river that they couldn't walk across, but they tried to cross it on a raft.
01:22:16
Speaker
And ah yeah, Jackson, as you said, you know, they didn't have any boats or anything because they assumed it would be frozen over. But it was kind of, some sources have called it ice choked river. So ah there was ice there, it just wasn't fully formed.
01:22:31
Speaker
So the Washington and Gist tried to cross on a ah makeshift raft. which did not work out. Washington fell into the water the but and this water had to be extremely cold.
01:22:46
Speaker
And he almost drowned in the water. But then Christopher Gist, the savior of the United States, reached in and pulled him to safety. And I do know that Gist, I think, fell in the water as well, but they he was able to get Washington on shore and They kind of stayed on shore for the night. They didn't, it was, so some of these rivers, if you're not familiar with the area, there's islands in the river because the river will divert in two different directions at one point and then reform. So you get kind of a little barrier island between the two.
01:23:21
Speaker
in the Allegheny river, that's where Washington gets kind of got out of the water and stayed at for the night. Uh, that is called hers Island, which is, uh, Pittsburgh. And I think it's also referred to, or it's like in a borough called like Washington's landing. Uh, there's like a little, there's like a little statue at the edge of the Island. I was biking along there once. Oh, that's cool.
01:23:45
Speaker
Yeah. That's right. Right next to downtown Pittsburgh today. Oh, that's really cool. Yeah. And I do remember reading that their clothes were frozen stiff. That's how cold that water was.
01:23:56
Speaker
but i would have to have been the most miserable night immediately after that spent on that island in freezing wet, heavy, damp, cold clothes and just trying to stay warm. Yeah, so they both almost died. But somehow, not only surviving that night, they were able to make the entire journey back, which is insane to me.
01:24:16
Speaker
I mean because at that point, that was very early in their journey that that happened. And i think this is all kind of recounted in Washington's journal. So if you ever are interested in reading about this, you can go to the National Archives and and National Archives website has a lot of Washington's journal online. You can kind of read his personal notes about this trip. and It's extremely fascinating.
01:24:37
Speaker
He talks about the encounter with Gist in the river and recounts that from his perspective. So I would encourage you to go read some of that. Yeah. It's amazing just the amount of resources available online. Like we don't have to dive into little library archives, like in other States to find some the stuff. It is amazing how much you can find online or in secondary sources and books and stuff. It's awesome.
01:25:03
Speaker
For sure. And then, yeah, just to finish up. So as I said, Washington did make the journey back. And I mentioned before that while this was, Yeah.
01:25:17
Speaker
for for washington it was a fantastic step in his career so even though he technically failed on his mission i mean his mission really was to just deliver the letter but didn' it disloded the french as kind of was intended is in a way, kick-started Washington's career because his his ah story and the courage that he showed in this trip was kind of published in British newspapers at the time. So his story kind of spread around and
01:25:51
Speaker
he started to make a name for himself and we'll see that set him up for another journey into the same area ah quickly following this. So it was a really good stepping point for him and saying like, you know, not only am I majoring the Virginia militia, not only am I surveyor, I can also like manage my own expeditions. I can manage men and I can make these very hard tasks possible because, you know, he was courageous and he had,
01:26:20
Speaker
he had that mentality that allowed him to do that. So yeah, like said, very formative for him. I don't think we have time to get into the next journey. That'll love to say that for the next episode, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah.
01:26:34
Speaker
If you want, I can close this out in like three to five minutes and set us up for next episode. that would be fantastic If you, if you don't have anything else to add there. Nope. That's all i had.
01:26:47
Speaker
Yeah. So when Washington gets back January 16th, 1754, Dinwiddie is already making moves, making motions. He's going to, he's definitely not waiting for the letter to go from St. Pierre to Duquesne and then all the way back. He's not an option.
01:27:04
Speaker
He's going to send out another expedition like immediately after in January or early February led by William Trent to build Fort Prince George at the Forks of the Ohio, that place where Washington noted, hey, this would be a good spot for a British fort.
01:27:20
Speaker
And Washington, pretty much right after he gets back, hands over his journal, that gets published and everything. He's going to be tasked again by Dinwiddie to start gathering some militia to go ahead and reinforce William Trent's team later on.
01:27:34
Speaker
So he's going to go around, try to get a couple hundred men while William Trent, and I think he's got like 30 to 50 men, they're going to hurry their way up in February, you know freezing cold February to start building a fort there.
01:27:47
Speaker
And what is now modern day Pittsburgh.
Seizure of Fort Prince George and Building of Fort Duquesne
01:27:49
Speaker
so But supplies are lacking. Cold is awful. Progress is very slow. By early March, the French are made aware of these efforts.
01:27:58
Speaker
Some of their scouts and friendly Indians spot some activity at the point. They see like a storehouse go up first, and then you know the very beginnings of a ramshackle fort.
01:28:09
Speaker
So by mid-March... the The scout ah report that activity back up the chain of command. Duquesne sends a letter to Contrecoeur, who was the second incom command on Celeron's expedition, basically saying, hey you need to hurry up and put a stop to what the British are doing at the point.
01:28:29
Speaker
Because if they consolidate, if they strengthen that position, it's going to lead to a siege, which we can't handle right now because, well, he ends it with, qu'ils seraient sages d'éviter vu le mauvais état des finances de loi, which is that it would be wise to avoid given the poor state of the king's finances.
01:28:49
Speaker
french France did not want to have a war right now. Their economy wasn't. doing the best. And there was some corruption in New France that was eating away some of the resources. So he sends Contre-Cur out and he's like, hey, hurry up, put a stop to this.
01:29:06
Speaker
So Contre-Cur, another French Marine who had become captain in 1748. He was second in command Celeron's expedition, like I said. So he brings down 500 to 1,000 French, Canadians, and Indians along with materials like cannons and building materials.
01:29:23
Speaker
They show up at this really like pitiful quarter built Fort Prince George. And they're just like, listen, Virginians, you got to get out of here. We'll give you some food on your way because you guys look so thin and miserable. But yeah you got to get out of here and we're going to start building our fort.
01:29:42
Speaker
That renowned French hospitality. Yes. So Tenegrison was present at this exchange, and he was furious that the British withdraw. William Trent isn't even there. He went back to a trading post to try to get them more food and supplies, and it was just like a second in command there with 30, not exactly starving, but almost starving guys facing 500 to 1,000 French and Indians.
01:30:07
Speaker
So he's just like, well, what am Yeah, i i got I got to take this offer and leave with the food you're giving me. That's better than I could expect. Tanigrisen hates this. He he sees the what he views as the cowardice of the British. He rages.
01:30:20
Speaker
The French don't really pay him any mind. And then they destroy whatever was being constructed of Fort Prince George. And then they start building real fortification, Fort Duquesne, which will become the most heavily... It will become a lot of things around this area. But Fort Duquesne is going to be the most heavily fortified location in the frontier.
01:30:45
Speaker
And as we close this episode, the French are now masters of the Ohio country. Washington got a lot of good press and almost died, but he got a lot of good press for it.
01:30:58
Speaker
Yes.
Teaser for the Next Episode
01:30:59
Speaker
And in our next episode, we will see, because George Washington, while he was gathering these militia, he starts heading up to reinforce Fort Prince George, but he doesn't get there in time. The French, you know, arrive and kick them out.
01:31:10
Speaker
So Washington is on his way with about 200 men, but what is he going to do? What are the French going to do? Is this going to be the height of hostilities? No. We will explore that next episode. All right. Sounds good. Thanks, Jackson.
01:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, we'll we'll catch you guys in the next one where we're going to talk about the real powder keg that kind of set this war off. Looking forward to it. Yeah. Thank you, everyone, for listening.
01:31:38
Speaker
hope you've been enjoying. If you have any comments, let us know things you like, things you don't like. But we will see you within ah couple weeks, most likely. And yeah, that's all. Anything else, Matt?
01:31:50
Speaker
Nope. We'll catch you guys next time.