Transcript
Speaker: No, like I said, I have no malice regarding any of this.
Speaker: I actually really welcome it.
Speaker: I hope that we can kind of both kind of grow from this.
Speaker: All right, welcome back to the Dental Pengu's podcast, episode 11.
Speaker: We're your hosts, Eric.
Speaker: And I'm Michael.
Speaker: All right, let's get into it.
Speaker: So for me, this episode was inspired by Neil Brennan's Blocks podcast episode with Andrew Santino.
Speaker: They got into what I thought was a fascinating conversation about male friendships, getting into like, what is a friend?
Speaker: How are they different from, you know, acquaintances or buddies?
Speaker: What to and not to expect from them?
Speaker: And I just thought it was very interesting to go at it at like a male friendship lens.
Speaker: And I wanted us to indulge in that, starting with some lighthearted questions from the We're Not Really Strangers card game to get comfortable and then really put the word best friend, quote unquote, under the microscope and explore its meaning.
Speaker: So I gave my co-host Michael some questions that I wanted to think beforehand.
Speaker: Some I'll just, you know, have your answer off the dome and we'll trade off our answers and just, you know, see where we get to.
Speaker: Sounds good.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: So let's start with a simple one here.
Speaker: So do I, so Eric, do I seem like a coffee or tea person?
Speaker: Sweetened or unsweetened?
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: You're a tea person and sweetened.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think the first part was easy.
Speaker: I'm definitely not a coffee person.
Speaker: In fact, I actually don't think I can handle coffee for some reason.
Speaker: Now, I think you are right in that I would prefer sweetened tea, but actually I think you influenced me to go less and less sweetened over time.
Speaker: When I first saw you order boba at like 50% sugar, I was like, wow, that's kind of like, isn't that like bitter?
Speaker: But like, you know, I started trying it myself and I actually kind of saw the value of it.
Speaker: So these days I actually order rather unsweetened, like 50% or even 25% depending on the stores.
Speaker: You, I would say you're a tea person, unsweetened.
Speaker: Is that correct?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Now, are you lying to yourself about anything these days?
Speaker: I wouldn't say these days, but I think just in general, maybe something I've always been thinking about.
Speaker: And I was thinking that me thinking that I'm a very patient or even kind of righteous person because people kind of around me always told me that I'm like a very patient person.
Speaker: And I feel like at some point I kind of start to believe that I am.
Speaker: But these days, you know, I feel like I really noticed that I get annoyed pretty easily.
Speaker: I just don't say anything about it.
Speaker: So afterwards, you know, I'll kind of rationalize with myself that, oh, you know, like every person has a story that makes them a certain way.
Speaker: So I let it go pretty quickly.
Speaker: But it certainly makes me kind of think, am I really a patient person?
Speaker: Or is that just who I want to be?
Speaker: Or am I too shy to kind of speak about my grievances?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And am I really patient if I'm kind of hypnotizing myself all the time when these things happen to me versus someone who generally is kind of unbothered by things that happen to them in their life because they practice these thoughts process so much more that it's second nature.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: Well, so, you know, Michael,
Speaker: Russell and I, for those who don't know, we actually took the big five personality self-reported exam, which I think is actually the most reliable body of work when it comes to personality psychology.
Speaker: And I would say that you are definitely more of the agreeable side.
Speaker: And, you know, at face value, it just seems like a conscientiousness or something like, oh, like who wouldn't want to be agreeable, right?
Speaker: But, you know, you got to understand that every one of these characters comes with the good and bad.
Speaker: And one of the, well, I guess, quote unquote, weaknesses, it could be that tendency to let things kind of build up because you don't want to come off disagreeable right then and there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And well, I mean, I want to ask you, like, has there been any incidents that you remember that something happened to you?
Speaker: You didn't like it.
Speaker: You let it build up.
Speaker: And then later you actually confronted the person about it.
Speaker: Or is it more like you just, you know, sometimes you do what I do.
Speaker: Sometimes I just like argue in the shower and then I get over it.
Speaker: Sometimes when I think back about maybe some conversations I wanted to have with my parents.
Speaker: But a lot of times for those moments, it's more like I couldn't think about what I wanted to say in the spot.
Speaker: So I had to come back, think about it and really kind of process what I want to say and then go back and tell them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: My answer though has been like a lot more shallow.
Speaker: It's been more like recent thinkings when I meet kind of a difficult patient and my head, I'll be like, oh, I'm annoyed.
Speaker: But then afterwards, I'll be like, oh, I understand, you know, like coming to the dentist is a hard thing.
Speaker: And I have to like kind of rationalize with myself a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I have those moments all the time.
Speaker: It always comes to me like when I'm driving home or like when I'm in bed or am I in the shower.
Speaker: It's so annoying.
Speaker: What about you?
Speaker: For me, I think it's a tendency that I may be overcompensating the embarrassment that I feel from living with my parents sometimes.
Speaker: So I've been living with my parents, I guess, like since late May of 2022.
Speaker: So it's been like more than half a year.
Speaker: And the other day I was telling my mom about, you know, how grateful I am about this situation.
Speaker: And, you know, it's so nice to come back from work and have a hot meal, ready to go.
Speaker: And
Speaker: And I was like, you know, I think this American, like leave when you're 18 and be independent and make a living for yourself, I think that's a whole scam.
Speaker: It's just to make people take minimum wage jobs and pay rent to buy a landlord's multiple houses.
Speaker: I think this is messed up.
Speaker: I'd rather much live like this and save my money and, you know, get something that's worth to me.
Speaker: And, you know, my mom, she loves me.
Speaker: She's like, yeah, I agree completely.
Speaker: Son, you can stay as long as you want.
Speaker: And, you know, let's not take that for granted.
Speaker: Some moms are like, you know, get the fuck out of there.
Speaker: But at the same time, while I know from the bottom of my heart that I'm not here because I need to be here, that if I wanted to, that I can live outside, that I genuinely want to spend my time
Speaker: my parents, even when I tell myself these things, maybe it's just the other American programming me that like, you know, you're closing 30 and you're still here.
Speaker: Is this something like you shouldn't feel embarrassed about?
Speaker: That kind of thoughts still kind of sneak in to my head from time to time.
Speaker: And I felt like I found myself kind of overcompensating for that.
Speaker: How do you overcompensate?
Speaker: Like the conversation that I have with my mom.
Speaker: It's like, I mean, that's just something I thought about.
Speaker: And like, I didn't feel like I needed to like tell my mom about it and get it validated by somebody else.
Speaker: I see.
Speaker: I see.
Speaker: I think that's a pretty normal thing.
Speaker: I've certainly had the same thought and I actually talked to my therapist about it.
Speaker: And she kind of brought up exactly the point that you brought up, which is that it's not that you can't, right?
Speaker: You're choosing to do something.
Speaker: And she was kind of bringing out that there are people who are actually unable to support themselves and go outside.
Speaker: But you're trying to choose to do this in hopes that you're making the best kind of financial decision because you get to save a little bit more money.
Speaker: So, you know, that gave me a little piece.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I don't think I need to be convinced about that.
Speaker: I think I've convinced myself pretty well.
Speaker: I just can't help that there's another side just kind of poking the bear sometimes.
Speaker: I definitely do feel that there are certain benefits of living on your own, even though you won't be saving as much money.
Speaker: I do feel like when I live at home, there's definitely like a little bit more dependence.
Speaker: Like if something ever happens, I feel like you can rely on your family a little more.
Speaker: But because I definitely do want to move out on my own eventually.
Speaker: I kind of like living on my own.
Speaker: But my girlfriend also moved back home recently in January.
Speaker: And she's so different.
Speaker: She's like absolutely loving it.
Speaker: Just the last two weeks, she was like bugging her mom to sleep together in her mom's room.
Speaker: And she was just like, oh, I love being a stay at home daughter.
Speaker: I'm sorry.
Speaker: It's been two weeks though?
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: It's been like a little more than a month.
Speaker: Well, let's get an update after six months.
Speaker: Yeah, no, it definitely has sacrifice.
Speaker: Obviously, you know, there's some rules you got to follow.
Speaker: I can't have people over except on Saturdays.
Speaker: Anywho, let's move on here.
Speaker: Describe the feeling of being in love with one word.
Speaker: Do you want to go first while I'm getting to your mic?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: So I thought of two words, presence and concern.
Speaker: I kind of cheated, but I think it's an optimistic way to view something and then pessimistic way to view it, but it's the same sentiment.
Speaker: So presence is like, yeah, when I'm just like really happy with like my partner, I feel like that moment matters and that's all that matters.
Speaker: And like just zoned in, in the zone in that moment.
Speaker: You know, when you say that, it makes me think of when you told me the story of one time you were playing this song with your ex and you guys were just looking in each other's eyes and you said you were just kind of feeling the same vibe.
Speaker: And I told my girlfriend about this, not the whole story, but just that like, I was like, look at them.
Speaker: Like they have such a, they have such a nice connection.
Speaker: I was like, we should do it too, you know?
Speaker: So I don't think we ever really have this moment, but we always kind of like, you know, we'll play a song together.
Speaker: We'll kind of just like have a little joke and then she'll just be like, look, we're vibing, you know?
Speaker: But it's like, not really.
Speaker: Well, it's like, yeah, I mean, you just got to let the things happen naturally, man.
Speaker: Like if you have that expectation beforehand, I think it's much harder.
Speaker: Dude, it made me think of that JV song, the, as long as you love me, we could be homeless.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We could be broke.
Speaker: False, but I get what he's saying.
Speaker: And the other side of that coin is concern because, you know, when I feel in love, I feel like I have something to lose.
Speaker: I think for me, I would say safety.
Speaker: When the connection is really there, I feel very supported.
Speaker: And like that's...
Speaker: Probably the person I would go to with whatever kind of concern I have.
Speaker: Just because, you know, you have a, even if I have a lot of friends, close friends, I don't like to bother people with my problems too.
Speaker: But I think in a partner, you feel a certain safety that they're willing and want to help you.
Speaker: I think that's good.
Speaker: I think that's what a lot of partners want in their long-term partner, for sure.
Speaker: Because even when you express yourself to your family, to your friends, you do kind of express yourself in different ways.
Speaker: They're all part of you, but you always show kind of a different side.
Speaker: Like to my parents, I don't really show a certain size that I do to my friends.
Speaker: Even to my friends, I kind of, you know, I don't always show some of my sillier sides or even if I'm like acting cute, right?
Speaker: But then with your partner, most of the times you can show almost every side for me.
Speaker: So like the feeling of safety of like being vulnerable?
Speaker: Yeah, like being completely who you are.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Gotcha.
Speaker: Next question.
Speaker: What do you wish people assumed less about you?
Speaker: I didn't have a great one for this, like a serious one.
Speaker: But I said, I wish people would not assume that I would be good at basketball.
Speaker: Because I feel like I certainly had a few times where I would go play pickup and people will actually say, oh, this guy looks pretty good.
Speaker: And I think they're saying because I'm decently tall and I look relatively proportioned, like I'm not, I look sort of athletic maybe.
Speaker: And sometimes when they shoot for teams, I do make the free throws.
Speaker: When we start playing though, they kind of realize, oh, this guy's not very good.
Speaker: And then they slowly start passing less and I start to become less confident as well, too.
Speaker: Damn.
Speaker: Well, follow up question.
Speaker: So are you doing anything about this?
Speaker: No, I'm not.
Speaker: Well, I was before, you know, I was playing with, you know, our high school friends and actually my girlfriend's cousin, who's pretty good, too.
Speaker: And I was trying to train with him.
Speaker: But ever since I kind of had my shoulder injury, I didn't really like playing a lot anymore.
Speaker: You talk about that as if like a career-ending injury for an athlete.
Speaker: In reality, that probably came from PUBG.
Speaker: Nice, nice.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't have a defense.
Speaker: I just wish that a lot of people assume that I'm tired.
Speaker: I've been hearing that for a long, long time.
Speaker: I think there are definitely some things I do.
Speaker: Like I do a lot of sigh.
Speaker: And it's literally because like I just forget to breathe, man.
Speaker: Like if I'm thinking about something, I just don't breathe.
Speaker: And I'm like to like get some air.
Speaker: But I have become self-aware at this point that like it comes off like I'm depressed about life or something.
Speaker: So I get this question a lot.
Speaker: And I wish people wouldn't assume less.
Speaker: But I'm in the same boat, man.
Speaker: I'm not really doing anything about this.
Speaker: If I care about it, I'll just tell people like in advance, hey, it's not you, it's me.
Speaker: Do you feel like you have, is there a difference in like in the morning time versus the afternoon?
Speaker: Like when you first get up, maybe you have more energy.
Speaker: So people don't really feel that or do you feel like it's kind of?
Speaker: No, I get it all throughout the day.
Speaker: I get it all throughout the day.
Speaker: I think it's like when I'm in deep thought, but not necessarily deep things, just deep thought.
Speaker: I just forget to breathe.
Speaker: It's kind of weird.
Speaker: All right, the most embarrassing thing that happened on a date.
Speaker: I can go first if you need to speak.
Speaker: Yeah, okay.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's like one of my first dates with my girlfriend back in high school.
Speaker: I recently got like a credit card and it was like one of our first dates.
Speaker: So I wanted to ball out, man.
Speaker: And when I said ball out in high school, I meant like, you know, go to Quigley's and buy things besides the boba.
Speaker: And, you know, God bless her.
Speaker: She was so kind that she offered to go Dutch.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: She offered to go.
Speaker: And you know how some people are like offer?
Speaker: But they're not, they don't mean it.
Speaker: No, no, she actually took out her wallet and she took out the 20, like ready to hand it out to me.
Speaker: And I was like, you know, hey, it's okay, man.
Speaker: It's okay.
Speaker: I got this, right?
Speaker: So we got some boba.
Speaker: We got some like, well, I mean, for those who don't know, like how would you describe quickly?
Speaker: So I, like it's like a boba shop with like Taiwanese street food.
Speaker: That's how I would describe it, right?
Speaker: And we got some like, you know, popcorn chicken looking things and some desserts and things like that.
Speaker: I remember it was like around, like right around, right under 20, it was like $19.16 or something like that.
Speaker: I was like, okay, that's fine.
Speaker: And I took out my credit card and the cashier was like this middle-aged lady and she looked at my card and without, like she didn't even look up.
Speaker: She pointed to my head and then she pointed my head to the wall and it says, uh, cash only.
Speaker: And I didn't have any cash.
Speaker: So I quickly turned around and I was like, hey, do you still got that 20 on you?
Speaker: So she ended up paying for the whole meal.
Speaker: And I wasn't so embarrassed about what actually happened because it didn't bother her that much either.
Speaker: But like I was really embarrassed about the alternate universe that what could have happened, which is like neither of us has cash.
Speaker: They order the food and I'm telling her I can't pay for it.
Speaker: And she's like, well, give me your wallet as collateral while you go to your ATM.
Speaker: And people are watching, people in line are judging.
Speaker: And now my girl starts to think, like, why did I do this?
Speaker: So it's that ruminating about the alternate future that made me feel so embarrassed.
Speaker: I could not enjoy my meal that day.
Speaker: Oh, really?
Speaker: You know, I can't imagine the scene.
Speaker: I bet she probably thought it was so funny when you suddenly turned around and looked at her.
Speaker: Do you have that 20, you know, instead of like being embarrassed?
Speaker: Yeah, what actually happened was it was okay.
Speaker: It was just ruminating about that future that just continued to bother me so much.
Speaker: Obviously, it's, you know, I can laugh about it now.
Speaker: Wow, you had a credit card already when we were in high school?
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, senior year?
Speaker: Oh, that's pretty cool.
Speaker: I don't think I really have one that I remember.
Speaker: And I think mainly because I don't feel like I went on a lot of like date dates.
Speaker: The partners that I meet often like we started out kind of as friends.
Speaker: So we're usually just kind of hanging out already.
Speaker: I wouldn't really call it like a date date.
Speaker: I don't think I've ever actually even been on a blind date or like through the apps.
Speaker: I've never actually gone on any of those.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: Gotcha.
Speaker: It's all good.
Speaker: You know, I actually thought that these questions would take a lot shorter.
Speaker: I like the conversation we're having, but like, well, I did want you to answer this.
Speaker: So how would you describe me, Eric, to a stranger?
Speaker: I will first say it for this one.
Speaker: OK.
Speaker: Because I actually had a very hard time answering this question for you.
Speaker: You know, for the phrase nice guy, like for a long time, I was like, you know, Michael's a nice guy.
Speaker: I mean, a nice guy has some like negative connotations.
Speaker: So I just decided to say like, yeah, he's a really, you know, agreeable dude, like easy to get along with.
Speaker: That's what I say most of the time.
Speaker: But I can't really think beyond that.
Speaker: Maybe you can help me kind of fill in like what else you would like me to know when I'm like describing you to a friend or something.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: i mean i think it's all whatever you are i mean i think that's pretty good you know michael's a nice guy and you give a little history you know we've known each other since sixth grade i think that's a pretty easy one okay all right how about you well my friend my friend eric you know my friend eric is an extremely creative and talented person he's a master pianist a connoisseur of the high arts so movies tv shows podcasts he's a dancer a
Speaker: fashion icon and a talented dentist.
Speaker: You know, he's very opinionated and knows what he wants.
Speaker: So when you want an honest opinion or recommendation, Eric is the man you're looking for.
Speaker: That's what I would say.
Speaker: Sounds like if I asked you to write my Tinder bio.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I was like thinking more like, hey, like somebody asked you like, hey, who's that guy?
Speaker: I can't imagine you saying like those words.
Speaker: He's a codifier of the art.
Speaker: I would totally say it if I can remember it in my head.
Speaker: That's funny.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Let's do one more.
Speaker: If we met up now at a gathering or through a mutual friend, so if we didn't know each other, we met up now.
Speaker: What's the likelihood that we end up as close friends down the road?
Speaker: I think that it's less likely.
Speaker: A lot of your long-term friendship is built on kind of the memories you've had and created.
Speaker: And I mean, I think some of the things that we used to do together that really kind of built our similar interests, I might not have gone into it if it wasn't for you.
Speaker: And then I don't think we'll really have as much similar interests later on.
Speaker: Like with Yu-Gi-Oh!, you taught me how to play.
Speaker: So if I never met you, I probably never would have learned how to play.
Speaker: You know, even with friends, right?
Speaker: I started watching Friends because you kind of introduced that to me.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: I do feel like at this stage of my life, when I meet new people, there's a sense of censorship, especially because a lot of the new people we meet are through professional encounters.
Speaker: So if I meet you through a mutual friend, you're a dentist as well, I might not kind of show everything about me.
Speaker: For example, I feel really close to my dental school clinic partner and my roommate, but there's a certain side that I don't show them.
Speaker: And I think that's because I want to maintain like a certain level of professionalism.
Speaker: So I'm not like making dirty jokes.
Speaker: And I feel like at this age, I don't feel as inclined to make those kind of jokes either.
Speaker: And I think that's the beauty of like an old friendship.
Speaker: A childhood friendship is one that you kind of made away at that stage of life where you feel okay to make maybe juvenile jokes.
Speaker: And because that's the stage you knew me at, now I feel just kind of comfortable being who I am almost like as a kid because you knew me when I was kind of as a kid.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: I mean, you've actually given this a lot more thought than I have.
Speaker: For me, this is questions like, it's one of those things like where the question is just more interesting than the actual answer.
Speaker: Because like my knee jerk reaction was, I also felt the same way that like it would be very low.
Speaker: Because like if I just think about like, okay, well, like what are things that we have like similar in common?
Speaker: It's more different than I thought.
Speaker: So it's just like, it made me just question like, well, is it similarly important?
Speaker: Or is it just like, like it's probably said, like just the time that we actually spent.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't have too much thoughts about it.
Speaker: It's just like something more interesting to consider like as a question.
Speaker: I definitely feel like we have different interests, but at the same time, I feel like sometimes they are pretty similar.
Speaker: It's just that you're a lot more heavily invested into certain things than I am.
Speaker: So like if we play games, I like playing games, but you know, I probably prioritize other things or especially if I'm not feeling too well physically, I try not to play too much games or even with kind of TV shows, you delve a lot more into it, even if we might enjoy kind of similar things.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Let's move on to the next topic.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Let's analyze the word best friend a little bit.
Speaker: First of all, I just wanted to put this on record.
Speaker: Like, are you my best friend?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So I agree.
Speaker: And then I also think you're my best friend.
Speaker: Now, follow up question is, why are you so confident that we are best friends?
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Do you want to go first?
Speaker: Well, let me give you like a thread that you may be able to work on then.
Speaker: Like hypothetical.
Speaker: So if I were to die, like who would be the most likely candidate to take up that position?
Speaker: You don't have to say the answer.
Speaker: And the other one would be, so you put me, you gave me the label of best friend.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What do you expect from me that you may not expect from, you know, because giving me that label and not giving someone like, is there something that you implicitly assume about me that you wouldn't from other people?
Speaker: I mean, I don't have a fleshed out idea.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Maybe just that there's less of an expectation.
Speaker: Kind of like it sounds kind of bad in a sense like sometimes when you have family, you almost kind of take it for granted a little bit.
Speaker: Like if my friends kind of are saying that, hey, you know, let's hang out, let's do something.
Speaker: You always feel like a little pressure, like, okay, I got to make that effort to make it happen.
Speaker: And even with your family, it's not like you shouldn't.
Speaker: But I think, you know, if we are going to make something happen, but you know what, I'm just, I'm not feeling it.
Speaker: I'm really anxious or I don't want to do something.
Speaker: I think you would understand that, like, okay.
Speaker: And I also feel like you have kind of a similar personality.
Speaker: Like sometimes when you don't feel up for it, like you don't really want to do it.
Speaker: And I understand it and I don't really kind of push towards it.
Speaker: Oh, you know what?
Speaker: I think I know.
Speaker: I think I have the answer.
Speaker: I think it's that kind of like with your family, if you have a fight, you know that it's not going to really jeopardize your relationship.
Speaker: I think I'm more conscious around other friends because, you know, I do feel like sometimes, you know, if I step on their buttons a little bit, they take it the wrong way.
Speaker: Friends come and go.
Speaker: There's no reason for them to stick around.
Speaker: Or I do feel that sometimes like if I make certain jokes and like they don't say anything, I'm like, oh, shoot, like they did not like my joke or whatever.
Speaker: But, you know, I send you memes all the time and you don't respond.
Speaker: And I'm like, oh, it's OK.
Speaker: He doesn't look at it.
Speaker: Sometimes he doesn't look.
Speaker: Sometimes he'll look.
Speaker: It's not a big deal, you know.
Speaker: Or like, you know, even when we were kind of discussing stuff with the podcast, when we had kind of some differences, I think initially I was a little nervous because I didn't want this to kind of affect how we feel.
Speaker: But then afterwards, you know, I think if there's anything that we really disagree on or it doesn't work out, like what's the worst that happened?
Speaker: I'd rather scrap the podcast than, you know, like I'm sure it would be okay.
Speaker: I think that's my answer probably.
Speaker: So that was kind of funny.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, I mean, obviously I have an unfair advantage because I had more time to think about this.
Speaker: But I may come to the same conclusion.
Speaker: So the one word that came to me as far as best friend is loyalty.
Speaker: And loyalty is easy to upkeep when everything's good.
Speaker: It's just, it's tested when, you know, shit hits the fan.
Speaker: And yeah, you're somebody who like, if you call me at 2 a.m., you know, and you're in deep trouble, like,
Speaker: I would feel very confident that I would, without hesitation, you know, get the, what I would call it, the shovel to help you bury the metaphorical body.
Speaker: And there is a line that obviously I wouldn't cross or expect you to cross, but I actually expect that line to be pretty extreme for me.
Speaker: Like it would have to conflict strongly with self-preservation on my part for me to not agree, want to do it.
Speaker: So like if you're in trouble, like I feel very confident telling you that you can count on me to be there.
Speaker: You know, if you're, you know, knock on wood, if you get canceled, like you might get dropped by your brand deals or, you know, your colleagues or things, but I would not drop you.
Speaker: Even if you're doing something wrong, I think you can count on me for like support and definitely like benefit the doubt.
Speaker: Like the line is pretty extreme.
Speaker: That's like loyalty.
Speaker: And here's another way to think about this, right?
Speaker: So I'm not sure if I told you this, but I actually spent like an unhealthy amount of time for years thinking about, well, I've held this belief for many years now.
Speaker: So I feel comfortable saying this publicly, but I actually asked myself, like, what would I be willing to sacrifice to save Michael's life?
Speaker: So like philosophically, it's like if you are just going to die and, you know, God asked me like, what would I be willing to sacrifice to save his life, bring him back?
Speaker: And, you know, first thing is like money.
Speaker: But actually it turns out money to me is actually quite disposable.
Speaker: I've never touched a seven figure in my life, but like your life is easily worth like my entire net worth.
Speaker: My net worth is negative right now, but...
Speaker: You know, mid six figures, no problem.
Speaker: Like I will sell almost whatever is in my vicinity to get you back to life.
Speaker: That's actually, that feels very easy for me.
Speaker: Where it got difficult, it's like, it's my body part.
Speaker: So it sounds a little weird.
Speaker: So it's just, it's not like I'm chopping off my fingers and giving it to you or anything.
Speaker: Like think of it more like a full metal alchemist.
Speaker: Just like I'm Edward and like, he asked me like, what am I going to give up to save Alfonso?
Speaker: I got to tell you, most of them weren't no, dude.
Speaker: Like, my vision, my arms, like, these are like, I'm like, no, this is so important for me.
Speaker: But where I landed, and I haven't changed this answer for at least five years, is one on my leg.
Speaker: And live as a cripple for the rest of my life, if that brings your life back.
Speaker: And it sounds really silly, but here's my point, okay?
Speaker: I then asked myself, like, who else am I willing to do this for?
Speaker: And for my mom, answer was pretty easy.
Speaker: It's a yes.
Speaker: My dad, dude, I had to think about it.
Speaker: And my sister, I really had to think about it.
Speaker: So what that made me realize was that, so for me, best friend might as well be synonymous with family.
Speaker: Like Vin Diesel is right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The reason why I feel confident saying that you're my best friend is I treat you like my family.
Speaker: And I'm a little conflicted as if to, I feel comfortable saying it because I would do that for you, but I'm not sure if I should feel conflicted if I don't expect that from you.
Speaker: And I don't know if it's responsible that I give you that kind of burden.
Speaker: Well, the question is, are you kind of imagining losing your leg like in Fullmetal Alchemist where your leg just disappears?
Speaker: Or you experience the pain of having your leg chopped up?
Speaker: Yeah, no, I would experience the pain.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And the reason why I wouldn't give up my arm is like... You have to do dance.
Speaker: Just like, yeah, my livelihood.
Speaker: Like, I like playing with computers, you know?
Speaker: But like, I mean, I can get a prosthetic leg, kind of cheat it a little bit.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: One recent change though, maybe because I got older, is I actually used to think that we would be ride or die.
Speaker: And I'm actually not sure about that anymore.
Speaker: Because as I see people around me get married and have children, I think I really underestimated just how family life impacts the friendship.
Speaker: It impacted a lot.
Speaker: I mean, I think we can say publicly that you and Angela are thinking about, you know, long-term future.
Speaker: And I'm actually not sure that that could significantly impact this friendship.
Speaker: We'll see.
Speaker: All right, you're done with your topics?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So my topic is, I guess, for the last three months, I've been reading a few pages of a book every day when I wake up in the morning.
Speaker: And right now I'm reading a book called Nudge.
Speaker: And it's about how, you know, the world places little nudges that kind of affect how we make choices.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: One point I was reading about is that, you know, people are affected by social influences because of two reasons that the author postulates.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: which is when a wide number of people do or believe something, then you might start to believe that that's actually correct or that's a fact.
Speaker: Like you question yourself.
Speaker: And then two, it's just simply kind of peer pressure.
Speaker: You don't want to be judged.
Speaker: So there was like a psychologist or someone who did a series of experiments where they put a group of strangers together.
Speaker: They gave them a
Speaker: really, really easy tests where you just have to kind of match the lines of the same length and you just kind of shout out your answer.
Speaker: And they also did this anonymously.
Speaker: Like you could do it in your own privacy individually without shouting your answer.
Speaker: And everyone performed really well under those circumstances.
Speaker: But then when they planted some people in the group that gave wrong answers, like they shouted out the wrong answers before everyone else, it statistically significantly made the rest of the group also choose the wrong answer, even though it's like a very easy, easy test.
Speaker: And yeah, when they interviewed the people afterward, the participants said that when the majority gave the answer, it made them see things the same way and kind of agree with their answer.
Speaker: After I read that, I think I started noticing like, do I do the same thing?
Speaker: And I didn't really think about this until I was driving.
Speaker: And then when the light turned green,
Speaker: I was like ready to go.
Speaker: Like I was going to step on my pedal, but none of the car next to me was moving yet.
Speaker: And I would actually second guess myself.
Speaker: I'm like, oh, is there something wrong?
Speaker: Like, is there something wrong?
Speaker: Why no one is moving?
Speaker: Like, should I actually go?
Speaker: Or I also noticed sometimes like I usually do wait for the pedestrian light.
Speaker: But if a group of people start to jaywalk, I'll just join them.
Speaker: And it definitely made me think like about what the book was saying.
Speaker: But I was kind of wondering if you ever noticed that you conform to other people's opinion, either as a conscious decision or afterwards you realize like, oh, I was doing something that I might not agree to or like I wanted to do.
Speaker: Yeah, I'll tell you this right now, man.
Speaker: I thought about your topic way more than you might have.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So you're talking about the ash conformity experiment.
Speaker: And what I thought was really interesting about that experiment is that the part where they changed up the design so that once the plants are done, that you don't have to shout out your answer, that you can privately...
Speaker: just anonymously write your answer and submit it in a letter.
Speaker: And they still picked the wrong answer.
Speaker: I thought that was really significant.
Speaker: That really showed me the power of social conformity.
Speaker: Maybe they went through this in a book, but what I, my understanding is that pressure to conform is a very old mechanism because in the evolutionary lineage, when we were hunter and gatherer tribes, if the tribe did not like you, you were ostracized.
Speaker: And back then, that literally meant you're dead because now you're alone in the wild.
Speaker: So we actually may have adapted the social rejection with almost like death.
Speaker: As far as the feeling of feeling abandoned and like the hurt from it.
Speaker: So the pressure to conform is high because your survival depended on it back then.
Speaker: And I think we may have carried that mechanism to modern days.
Speaker: And I mean, I thought of some dark examples when it comes to like, you know, you're talking about Heaven's Gate, suicides, Holocaust,
Speaker: McCarthyism, these are all consequences of immense pressure to conform and it made just normal average people commit horrific acts.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So it's definitely, I think it's definitely real.
Speaker: And yeah, I have some examples in my head.
Speaker: I have some silly ones, but I have some real ones.
Speaker: So the first thing I thought of was, I think it was like around junior year, I got invited to
Speaker: place to watch the Super Bowl.
Speaker: And you know me, like I'm not interested in football by any stretch of the imagination.
Speaker: I'm not even in the commercials that much.
Speaker: I'm just like, I'll just watch it on YouTube the day after.
Speaker: I don't have to stay through the whole game.
Speaker: Apparently, I remember it was kind of an exciting game because the winner came down to the last play where instead of making a run for it to the touchdown, they ended up passing and got intercepted and lost the game, basically.
Speaker: And I remember like my people around me were like, oh my God, why did he run it?
Speaker: And it's like, they're very emotional about it.
Speaker: And I went like, watch some YouTube videos and it seems to me the general consensus was like, obviously hindsight is 20-20, right?
Speaker: They're like, oh, he should have just carried it to the finish line instead of just passing.
Speaker: That was a wrong call for this and this and this reasons.
Speaker: And I remember, like, I was talking to, like, my friends in, like, you know, chemistry or whatever, that class.
Speaker: And they're talking about football.
Speaker: And, like, I was, like, participating in it.
Speaker: I was like, yeah, dude, he should have just ran that.
Speaker: I was like, I mean, like, looking back, I'm not sure how I felt back then.
Speaker: But looking back, I was like, what are you doing?
Speaker: Like, you know...
Speaker: This does not matter to you at all.
Speaker: You don't even know what line of scrimmage meant until two days ago.
Speaker: What are you doing?
Speaker: But I definitely felt that pressure to kind of participate in that conversation because they were, you know, they were a fun group.
Speaker: Yeah, I can just imagine you like everyone's cheering and then you look around and then you start cheering too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah!
Speaker: And then you're like, dude, that's the gameplay from the 76.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: All right, second one.
Speaker: It made me think of our previous podcast and specifically the parts that we cut.
Speaker: Because the idea of thought policing and speech censorship is just always a topic that I'm always interested in.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: One was the, we had an episode that I talked mostly about birth control and its effects.
Speaker: We cut that and, you know, we made that decision together.
Speaker: And I think we're, we're in agreement that while it was not mansplaining, you were concerned that some listeners might interpret it as mansplaining or offensive, you know, et cetera.
Speaker: And I think I did make it clear that I did not agree with that decision, but
Speaker: Ultimately, I wanted you to have the final say.
Speaker: And I wanted to articulate why I didn't like it.
Speaker: So I felt like we practiced, and I think there's probably more sophisticated word for this, but I'm just going to coin a word that I'm going to call buzzword blanketing.
Speaker: And I'm going to define it as a practice of labeling a person or an idea with an inflammatory label with the goal to make it easy to dismiss that person or idea completely because of all their other nuances fit into background due to the right buzzword that's blanket over that object.
Speaker: So to make it clear for our listeners, I'll give you an example.
Speaker: Let's say I ran across an article that is interesting to me.
Speaker: So I just thought of it.
Speaker: Localized tests run to practically improve education in K through 12 and what I learned about it.
Speaker: Let's just say that was the article.
Speaker: Author was the one who ran those experiments.
Speaker: But the first comment below on like a Reddit thread or Twitter says that boycott this guy, fuck this guy.
Speaker: This author is a convicted pedophile.
Speaker: And I want to ask people to consider, like, how many people do you think would dismiss this article entirely due to that comment?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: This person might genuinely have great ideas about K-12 education, but how many of us will just dismiss him completely due to his history?
Speaker: Or I had an example on my own subreddit where there was a chicken sandwich store that opened up and people were trying to promote it.
Speaker: And the top comment, top comment was someone who said, boycott the store.
Speaker: The owner of this store has a convicted record of domestic abuse in 2018.
Speaker: I'm not sure how much that impacted the actual business, but there were running threads of people condemning this guy, people boycotting this guy.
Speaker: I mean, we don't even know the details about this case, but just that label alone made people confident enough to dismiss the whole thing, right?
Speaker: And I think in the totem pole of inflammatory labels, there are buzzwords.
Speaker: I think there are some are more inflammatory than others.
Speaker: I think the top of that tone of point in American discourse is pedophile.
Speaker: I think if you're a convicted pedophile or if the court of public opinion deems you a pedophile, I think that's true cancellation for you.
Speaker: I can't imagine you coming back to public discourse anytime soon.
Speaker: Right below are words like that refers to a racial offense.
Speaker: So like Nazi, white supremacist, racist.
Speaker: A little bit below, I think of words like groomers, abusers.
Speaker: And then below is like toxic feminism, toxic masculinity.
Speaker: And where I put manspining is relatively low on the tone of pull.
Speaker: So like words that kind of have the same vein, in my opinion, is like words like gaslighting, microaggression, and so forth.
Speaker: So relatively harmless in the inflammatory nature of the buzzword, but it still has the same idea to simplify a topic or a personal idea into something that may be dismissible.
Speaker: Mansplaining might not be extremely offensive to myself personally, but if you are a staunch feminist, that might be all you need to dismiss that person or article completely.
Speaker: And where I didn't feel comfortable was I felt like that's what happened.
Speaker: I've tried to include different threads and perspectives and I watched podcasts on it.
Speaker: I put like my own research on it.
Speaker: I asked around in real life to, you know, gain perspective from other like female colleagues and so forth.
Speaker: And because of this label that I felt like the whole thing got cut out and I felt a little bit alarmed because I don't think we said anything.
Speaker: You know, you know, we don't really have an audience.
Speaker: or a brand deal that we're at risk of losing.
Speaker: And the fact that we're already thinking about thought policing and self-centered content, not based on even what it is even, but based on how it could be interpreted, I thought that was kind of alarming.
Speaker: And ultimately, what if it was, though?
Speaker: Another thing was like, what if it was manspanning?
Speaker: You know, are we not open to criticisms or reflections?
Speaker: Like if we get accused, if I get accused of that and I can reflect on it and think about it, correct my mistakes, like is that such a bad consequence to go through?
Speaker: And so me letting this happen was just my example of kind of conforming to the supporting practice of buzzword blanketing and recognizing
Speaker: for me the more interesting question is like why i did agree to conform to this decision in the first place and which is what i want to talk about at the very end here and the other example was more the way that i conformed to approach like censored in environments depending on where i am so
Speaker: I talked about this briefly that, you know, I have different filters when I talk to you versus when I talk to colleagues in my job versus if I were to be invited, you know, on The View or Jimmy Fallon or National Publicized TV.
Speaker: Like, I think that makes sense, right?
Speaker: I would have different filters for myself.
Speaker: And personally, my perspective is that there actually shouldn't be any filters, that we should be able to make jokes or even, you know, like insult, like legally, right?
Speaker: at any stage, without repercussions of losing my job or anything like that.
Speaker: I think you're not immune to criticisms at any levels, but the fact that if you do that on national TV, that you could lose your job, or there are mobs of people who will go through your LinkedIn profile to contact your company, or mobs of people who will go through a YouTuber's sponsorship deals and show them the clip and demand that they drop them.
Speaker: And like messing with people's genuine livelihoods, like I'm actually not that comfortable with that kind of mom mentality practice.
Speaker: So that is my perspective, but that's not the world we live in.
Speaker: And I don't do anything to go against that.
Speaker: Like I censor myself appropriately and conform to that where I am because I don't want to lose my job, but I certainly don't agree with what's going on.
Speaker: But when I think about these last two examples, really though, what I end up conforming is that I actually like to think of it as I conform to my best friend.
Speaker: Because when we began this project, you kind of brought it up a little bit.
Speaker: But one of my concerns also was that our personality differences concern me because I didn't want our natural dynamic to carry this because then I'm just going to take over the podcast.
Speaker: You know, and I could tell it was important that it was a joint project for you.
Speaker: And that's why I wanted to make sure that you have the majority opinion and make decisions.
Speaker: Like, your opinion is majority opinion as far as I'm concerned because I wanted to learn to be more of a team player.
Speaker: And I also wanted you to practice making decisions on telling me things that I may not want to hear, but rather it's important, you know.
Speaker: You're still a very polite person.
Speaker: Like, I can tell, like, when you don't like something, you don't just tell me, like, I don't like this part.
Speaker: You tell me, like,
Speaker: Hey, Eric, are you sure this is not like, can you ask me to clarify?
Speaker: And it's like, you ask in kind of a roundabout way.
Speaker: And I do appreciate it because it's a nicer way to ask something.
Speaker: But both of us kind of going out of our comfort zone.
Speaker: So me, learning to tone down a little bit and just make sure that I'm being a team player and you kind of being more disagreeable.
Speaker: I actually thought that in this podcast, both of us kind of getting out of our comfort zone was more important.
Speaker: Even though I agreed to the decision of cutting certain things together, I guess where I end up ultimately is like, you know, when you say idea of conforming to something that you don't agree with, it just kind of seems to have a negative connotation.
Speaker: But I wanted to question, like, is that a bad thing?
Speaker: Because ultimately, by conforming to the decision making that I didn't necessarily agree with, I felt like I achieved something more important, which is feeling that we're working as a team and getting both of us, you know, to do something that we're not comfortable with and hopefully grow.
Speaker: So that was a long one.
Speaker: But I hope I added something to this topic.
Speaker: No, for sure.
Speaker: I like that.
Speaker: I didn't really think of it as censoring.
Speaker: I'm actually very open to kind of re-recording the episode if you wanted to do it.
Speaker: I just felt like it wasn't mansplaining at the time when we were recording, but actually more like the birth control in that topic was something that affects people pretty seriously.
Speaker: And when we were talking about it, some of it we were kind of mentioning as almost as like a choice, but
Speaker: I know there are actually people who have kind of serious conditions where they have to take it and it's less of a choice.
Speaker: And I don't think we really address that.
Speaker: So I felt like if we wanted to talk about kind of more controversial topics, which I'm down for, it's definitely something that I want to have known about the topic beforehand and kind of be prepared so we can actually kind of cover it and really be comprehensive.
Speaker: I agree that I feel it's okay to put it out.
Speaker: And actually, if we learn something from it, you know, if we make any mistakes, people give us feedback, it would actually be a great thing.
Speaker: Okay, I mean, maybe you didn't focus on the mass planning aspects of it.
Speaker: Perhaps maybe there is a degree of me kind of force feeding this topic, because I thought it was relevant to this discussion.
Speaker: But maybe I highlighted it in a way that maybe didn't deserve.
Speaker: No, I have no desire to re-record.
Speaker: Again, I really like that you get to practice with me just saying things how you feel.
Speaker: I think that's really important.
Speaker: And I think it's important that I learn to just dial down.
Speaker: So I actually really welcome it.
Speaker: And I hope that we can kind of both kind of grow from this.
Speaker: No, like I said, I have no malice regarding any of this.
Speaker: And the reason why I brought it up is not to retread all the wounds.
Speaker: It's just, I thought it was very relevant.
Speaker: Like when I read the topic, like my head went to a lot of places, like more than traffic lights to be honest.
Speaker: All right, thanks for tuning in, guys.
Speaker: Check us out at Dental Pengu's Instagram for extra clips, post pod clarities, and some content exclusive to the Instagram.
Speaker: You can check us out on other platforms and we'll see you next time for the next episode.
Speaker: Peace.
