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The odyssey of truly becoming a founder | Vinod Singh @ Concirrus
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Some founders are born lucky - and some founders are born to fight against tremendous odds and adversities.
This is the story of Vinod Singh who was born in a village in UP which did not even have electricity, and yet through sheer grit and willpower - ended up becoming the CTO of a startup in the UK.
And you might think that this is the happy ending of the story, but like they say - picture abhi baaki hai.
Vinod then started a business that was initially built around leveraging the potential of IOT technology, and which eventually pivoted to selling software to speciality insurance companies. And that was the birth of Concirrus which went on to raise more than $40mn over the next couple of years.
But that is when things fell apart and the founders realised that they had diluted so much of their equity that they no longer had any control over the future of Concirrus and they were on the verge of declaring bankruptcy.
Stay tuned to learn what happened next as your host Akshay Datt speaks to Vinod Singh about his amazing journey as a founder and don’t forget to subscribe to the Founder Thesis podcast.
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Transcript
Vinod Singh's Journey: From Rural Roots to Startup Success
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, um this is Vinod. I'm co-founder and CTO at Concierge, weird out of London.
00:00:19
Speaker
Some sounders are born lucky and some sounders are born to fight against tremendous odds and adversities. This is the story of Vinod Singh who was born in a village in UP which did not even have electricity and yet through sheer grit and willpower ended up becoming the CDO of a startup in the UP and you might think that this is the happy ending of the story.
00:00:41
Speaker
But like they say, picture adi baki hai. We're not then starting a business that was initially built around leveraging the potential of IoT technology and which eventually pivoted to selling software to specialty insurance companies.
Challenges of Early Entrepreneurship and Education
00:00:54
Speaker
And that was the birth of Consiris, which went on to raise more than 40 million dollars over the next couple of years.
00:01:00
Speaker
But that is when things fell apart and the founders realized that they had diluted so much of their equity that they no longer had any control over the future of Kansairis and they were on the verge of declaring bankruptcy. Stay tuned to learn what happened next as your host Akshay Dadsleet to be not think about his amazing journey as a founder and don't forget to subscribe to the founder thesis podcast.
00:01:22
Speaker
you know you've had a very fascinating journey. and i mean you know it's ah It's like a real dramatic story that you've had as an entrepreneur. ah Let's start at the beginning. i mean Just take us through your story. like but you know A little bit of context on where you grew up, what you did, and what led up to you becoming an entrepreneur.
00:01:46
Speaker
Sure. I think I'm happy. So my, I was born and brought up in a village and in a Eastern UP. It's very somewhere between Ayodhya and Lucknow in that kind of belt. Village as in farming, like your parents were farmers? Yeah, literally farming village. So um I have the first time I've seen an electric bulb when I was on ninth.
00:02:10
Speaker
yeah when When I passed my 8th grade, like no I had not seen electricity, but it is like basically kerosene lamps and all, like typical clay-made, you know all these diyas and all, that was my life. Which decade is this? 1980s. Yes, I was born in 1981, so it was it must be around like and that it is still the nineteen s yeah yeah ah exactly okay
00:02:41
Speaker
yeah amazing well yeah I mean like that part of the country was not developed I mean it is much developed now but at that time it was not that developed so yeah I was I'm from that background. like How did you escape that yeah how did you escape your circumstances?
00:02:58
Speaker
but Exactly. That's the ah the funny thing. so my As I said, like my father is a farmer, and in that area where I was like born, ah there were like three carrier roots that one would take as a growing up as a kid. So the most like famous root was to become a Yuvarneta. I don't know if you're familiar with that term.
00:03:24
Speaker
ah but so I'm from Delhi. So do you have this like, you know, okay so like I think the majority of the population, the kids, they were dreaming around, not dreaming about becoming a doctor, saying there will be a day when I have got 50 people behind me and I'll have like open Jeep. And and that was kind of a yeah one That you know but was one track. And then another track was a very UP centered thing around, like, no, I have to become a government job. So bank view, critical law, critical law. That was a thing. And there was a little bit of a doctor, but both the like, photos of segmental like no was going trying to become a doctor. But ultimately engineering engineering was tiny. It was like, you have to pick up one of those ah three.
00:04:12
Speaker
And um like any other parents, my dad also wanted me to prepare and become a government officer. I said, OK. And then ah maybe math, copied chiti basically. I was very good in math. And um when I was in my age, the standard, like teachers, like you should really pur pursue the engineering side. You're really good at math and all. So iina reallyla gotti math are musical or like no become a government anyway.
00:04:43
Speaker
But my father was very clear. So there is a high chance that I will become a U.N. or U.N. rather than pursuing that. So at the age of I think I must be like around 11 or 12 year old kid. My father like decided to get me out of the village and send me to a nearby city which was like 50 kilometers from my village.
00:05:09
Speaker
um a district city basically so he sent me there to personalize study like high school 9th and 10th kind of things. So that is where like you know I skipped that like you know with the help of my father saying okay you can I study but he did not help me escape to become an engineer he helped me escape to become a government servant. yeah right like How did the engineering happen? Yeah so I think and to be honest before that I would say like um At that time I was a bit mad at my parents because you remember 12 year old kid, I was ah like left on my own. um Nobody like I had to cook my own food and like, you know, get up in the morning, go to college, come and obviously like it was left on my own. So I felt abandoned by my family. oh But right if I look back now,
00:05:59
Speaker
Let me see, today I'm very independent and that you know skill of, the first ah step of entrepreneurship is like ability to do your own thing, like was developed during that time, like know when I was 12.
The First Startup Attempt and Learning Experiences
00:06:12
Speaker
um So anyway, um so when I, I kept it like in a government servant thing until like when I was in 12th, because that is where you have to take a call. And, and then by that time I sort of tried to convince my father that actually that I want to pursue, you know, try to do a BTEC from IIT is why my dream now. And, um and I kind of kept the dream alive saying, when I do IIT, you look at the statistics, people become IS more often from IIT. So,
00:06:44
Speaker
know
00:06:47
Speaker
So um that is where I tried to convince him. And then I basically tried to go to Allahabad. And I think that time Allahabad was a quota of UP in terms of preparing for the internship and everything else. um So I went to Allahabad, found a very famous coaching, Krishna coaching or something.
00:07:08
Speaker
um appeared into their kind of, they have that, you know, the entrance exam that, you know, you can get some discount on a fee and all. Anyway, I tried to do that, but my, um, and then did everything else. And then, um, they said, okay, deposit the fees and, uh, do that, join the class like next week. So I said, okay, I sent my, I told my dad that I need 20 grand or something like, I don't know, like around that amount, not a big but 20 grand, but we're talking about 30 years back. So big amount. Yes. It would be like two lakhs today. Like, yeah, exactly. So, um, I, I told my dad that I've all done. Um, um, I'm going to look for a room or stay there and do that. And he said, okay, fine. And then I came to know from one of my relatives that he's trying to sell a piece of land to pay that fees because he did not have the money at that time, but he didn't want to tell me.
00:08:01
Speaker
And that kind of was a kind of breakup thing for me. You're like, OK. So I decided to not do the coaching. I sort of convinced my dad that actually that I learned from my friends, it's not good. It's better to prepare yourself. So basically, I dodged that thing saying, I don't want you to sell the gun. So I started preparing myself, obviously tried to appear in IIT.
00:08:24
Speaker
once. And after the exam, I was very curious that without coaching, there is no way in the hell that I could crack this. j i take kind of example um So the fact, and then I said, Okay, let me look at the internal alternatives. So I think that time there was like something called state label. At the moment, they have got everything consolidated, there was a state level things tried that got a mediocre rank I would say and I got a BSA college of engineering in Mathura that was kind of the you know private college again ah same thing happened like Nafi and all that okay fine looks like not gonna do that so anyway I then ended up basically
00:09:04
Speaker
One thing led to another, I ended up being doing a BCA from Kuma University in Annital. By mere chance of somebody in my known recommending me there and they said they can give me credit for like six months of my fee deposit and they think I said okay fine. So I kind of ended up being in Kuma University in Annital to do them to to my BCA and engineering engineering route that. Long story, but that's how I got into.
00:09:32
Speaker
How did you pay for your college so my Some of the money was done by my my dad, but um I didn't want him to feel bad. So I sort of told him half of the fee. that Basically, my fee was, let's say, $14,000 a year. So I'll tell him that it's a $7,000 a year only. And I told him that hostel is free, but a actually, it was paid hostel. So what I did was two things. so During the semester time, I used to take tuition for like intermediate and high school like math. Tuition did that.
00:10:06
Speaker
and um in the summer vacation or like in the semester break like you probably get in engineering like month or two month break um and that time my students who are studying, they also used to go, you know, kind of summer vacation, somebody is going to UT and everything else. And I used to sell vegetable and fruits as well in some unknown cities, like, you know, I sold the vegetable and things in Lucknow, a bit in Jaipur. I didn't want anybody to find out what I'm doing. So if I don't find like, you know, ah ah some ah good length of students to teach,
00:10:39
Speaker
especially in the summertime, I'll go and probably sell a vegetable, table everything else, rent some tila and I'll do it, give them back, come back and then have something. Wow. That's incredible. Okay. Like I'm speechless literally. Wow. Thank you. So what what next? Like when you finished your BCA? Yeah, so I finished my BCA and then I realized that there was no job for BCA because you know that was when I started I think even if you are like doing some Java course from an IIT and everything there was a bit of job in the market but I'm talking about 2001 kind of things when that bubble like dot-com bubble happened but bad timing to get out in the market and not only like and only that you're not coming from a very reputed college you're not even done a BTEC you're not done an MCA yeah so you're in a BCA so basically it's like
00:11:34
Speaker
know what you've got no chance.
Career Transition: From Software to Global Exposure
00:11:37
Speaker
And especially you don't know anybody in industry. So um I realized that by the end of like no last semester that um it's not gonna happen. So I, at that time I tried to do my own startup. Okay. So that was my first instinct was after completing my graduation, I I really mastered my programming and everything else at that time. And um even my professor used to come and get some like no programming kind of tips from me. oh <unk> So really good. So I, what I did was that I
00:12:14
Speaker
I went and spoke to all the hotels in Nainital. At that time I counted, there were 528 hotels in Nainital, smaller, mid-size, bigger, it's ah like tourist city. I went and spoke to the hotel association.
00:12:30
Speaker
you know and without any like just try to find a guy instead of jump on him, unannounced. Anyway, that's the, so I approached them and I said, look, I can build a software for you guys. And if you can help me place a bulk deal, so all these hotels in your association will get that software at a very cheap price, but it's like 528. So even if I, if I get a thousand, it's like a huge amount of money for me. So anyway,
00:13:01
Speaker
did the deal ah but not everybody agreed though like four or five hotels they said we are not come forward you deliver it and then based on that we'll take a look um did that but again very new it's one thing that you want to do and you you can talk but you're from a village and you know and no um all the kind of things came in my way like my basically things um so did that um try to like survive probably an year year and a half but then i realized that The market at that time, there was no concept of a startup. There was no funding available. There was nothing like it. Like, you know, people would basically look at me saying, I'm insane. Like, no, who does that? When my father even like, no, we started to saying, OK, like, I don't think we need to talk. We're like, OK, Dad, we'll figure out something.
00:13:51
Speaker
um Sorry. um So I think I did it for a year and a half. I had initial money to pay my bills and all, but then and things did not work out. And it was more like the politics and this and that within the association. um Initially yeah I felt that I did a like a genius job to go and approach the association, but it turned out to be a wrong thing. I should have been better going after these specific hotels and doing it individually. But anyway, there was a learning that, you know, I tried to do a bit more smarter, ah being more smarter in distribution side.
00:14:27
Speaker
but anyway And then I try to do, you know, there's a Monday, like a najat for Monday, you've seen like, there was a big Monday in Haldawani and like, you know, there are like people who call, who are called Aarti, who like buy in bulk and sell and that.
00:14:43
Speaker
try to build them a an RIT sort of you know local accounting kind of system in Hindi um you know and try to do that. So did that. Again, probably have earned 50 to 60,000 or 70,000 rupees at that time. So basically surviving while the market was trying to figure it out. So I spent like spend like no two years of my life trying to be engaged in the market, practically gain experience, pay my bills. And then I got a break and into a product, software-based like product company. It was a very small um in Nevada, Ghajiabad, Nevada. UK-based six, seven, and eight people interviewed it through some of my you know ah connections and got the job.
00:15:34
Speaker
there and end during that time when I was like you know trying to run in startup I was also teaching into some of these like you know uh NITs uh app tech and all the kind of things also teaching so doing the little things to pay my bills and doing that but then my first real break was as a software developer in one of that product based companies in uh in noi.japa Okay. So next, I think 13 years basically was in software until you ended up at Amazon. ah So this was all in India, but the company you're running is based in London. How did the India to London move happen? So I think in fact, I'm a very limited experience working in India.
00:16:18
Speaker
To be honest, um okay when I was working my first company, my first job was CCL, software, private limited, Gajebat based, Gajebat Noida based, but it was again headquartered in London, product based company. I was one of the brilliance mind in that kind of small team. And then they were working in the banking sector.
00:16:39
Speaker
So I joined and very early, I was like, even in 2004, I was moved in London. So okay I went and worked in London for a long time. And then it was more like come back and go back again. So my main project, my main client and everything, it was based out of US and London. Okay. well What about the Amazon role, your last employment?
Founding Concierge and the Pivot to Insurance
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah, so Amazon role was so um basically what happened was like I was working for ah actually New York waste, but Indian headquarters company in Gurgaon called ST Advisors. They were into like a stock market finteng fintech kind of a domain, um doing algorithmic trading. So build that. okay I led their technology team. um And it's funny that in that team, except me and Sultanji, who was their guard plus, you know, the subject niche, everybody else was from IIT Bombay, IIT Delhi and Water and Caltech kind of people.
00:17:37
Speaker
mayos taji k dolo thejo non a in flow of so but they are my poor technology ahead the amazing So so hasi basically I had a healthy argument with the CEO because I have this kind of a slave leadership. I strongly believe if I want my team to be loyal to me, I have to be the first one to show the loyalty to them.
00:18:06
Speaker
And I ah expect very hard, my expectations are very high from myself and my team, but basically that bell curve idea that every company has, like, but yeah, subko isim fit karna hai. And I had, I understood it, but I simply think like, look, I've got running a technology team. I gave everybody a hardest goal possible. And if somebody have achieved the goal, I'm going to rate them four out of five or five out of five.
00:18:31
Speaker
I cannot reduce the rating to three because they are not fitting into the bell cup. So it did not fit into my kind of thing. So anyway, I had a healthy argument with the CEO in the management and saying, while I am the CTO in this company, this cannot be implemented. And I and fully understand, appreciate that you need to implement that to run the company. So I'm going to leave. So I went in the management meeting, resigned, came back.
00:18:55
Speaker
And then basically I had nothing. So I then ended up in Nagaro because I knew the CEO of Nagaro, Manus Fullaria, like Dr. Manus Fullaria, very nice guy. So ah got into it within six months. I knew that I'm not made for a consulting based companies. There's nothing wrong with the consulting business. There was nothing something wrong and with me. I cannot be that blunt and open and honest and everything like that I am.
00:19:21
Speaker
Um, so I started looking around and I ended up in, in, in Amazon. Uh, so the position was it like, no, I had an option to be based in Seattle or in Gurgaon due to some family situation. I said, I'm happy to travel ah across whatever you want to do, but I want to based in Gurgaon. So I was based in Gurgaon, but my team was all global. Okay. Okay. Okay.
00:19:46
Speaker
okay And how did, like this is where your entrepreneurial journey part two starts. How did that happen? Right. So um I was working with Amazon and one of the There are lots of bad things also about any company. I imagine if you read the internet, it's full of like how cruel they are and all that. But one thing that they- Ruthless. Yeah. ah Yeah, Ruthless. And one thing that they did it to me was like, not that they're a leadership principle and everything else. um It was a very master, I would say, platform form for me to ah
00:20:20
Speaker
get all of my raw skill, like independence and all the thing everything that i that my childhood has given me. It was not something that I selected to like polish them into it. So they have got a single-threaded leadership style. So basically, every senior engineering leader is working as a CEO of that unit. And that's how the setup is. So I had to i was in charge with the locker program. There's one of the like offline delivery initiatives.
00:20:46
Speaker
I was in charge of not just technology, the operation, the financials, the HR, and everything. Basically, you get exposure to build everything around you and and try to navigate things forward. and So it really helped me a lot to get out of just technology into operations, ah sales, and all other customers, finances, modeling of the financial modeling. It was a really great opportunity for me to be honest, to learn those.
00:21:15
Speaker
And then I stopped spending two, three years there. I thought, okay, I'm done. So I was interviewed by Google um oh and decided to leave them and join like Google drive team.
00:21:31
Speaker
in their London office, basically King Cross site. So I had an offer from them. But before, when I was in a bit wind of leaving Amazon and joining Google, if the process already starts three, four months, as you know, it's not a sudden.
00:21:47
Speaker
so um So I had this, uh, one of my friend, um, in UK, uh, he was a again technologist, very tech genius guy, ex a CTO of Holland and Packard ah Graham. And, uh, he, uh,
00:22:03
Speaker
knew the current co-founder, like founder of the concierge. They were a friend and I was introduced by Graham to Andrew Yeoman, who is my business partner now. And sometime I think um actually it happened that let's say I introduce you to one of my friend and you become better friend to my friend than I am because you two are more in common. So that's what happened with me and ND there. Like if we connected through a direct connection, but we really find lots of things in common, values and our childhood,
00:22:33
Speaker
uh we connected at a root level and uh nd um was running a big company he was just CEO of a European like level very senior sales driven guy and he was looking for that you know his ah entrepreneurship journey but this computer um a couple of ideas and he he and I used to talk about it But there was nothing finalized. It was just more of a talk, talk, talk. yeah But you just keep talking about that. So um back in like 2012 or 13, like, no, that time ah we decided, we have nagaka but I'm going to put the button. And a and that time, at ahoga at google and yeah
00:23:22
Speaker
java ralia dan will really get abused, but I think I like the idea. So let's do that. So that entrepreneur, Jeremy was basically, Andy came up with an idea, like told me, I really liked it. And he was looking for somebody as a co-founder. And then I joined his hand. And then we started the concierge. So that's how my journey to started with the concierge. So he started concierge in 2012, you said? and Yes, around that.
00:23:50
Speaker
ah And so you joined full-time like around 2016, I guess. um mayor Basically, i was um ah peace in bakaleti i mean I was supporting him, but wo atta meki I could not, if you look at my background, I could not afford to take take that um i right is ba kill to clear to Andy that I am all in. I will work day, night, overnight. You will never feel that I am part-time, but I need a little bit sidekick to like pay my bills. yeah yeah and then there will be time and I will jump and I don't worry. So basically, the whole thing is fully them committed. hogaha But so let me okay I just officially i joined. Otherwise, I was you know fully into it. So tell me the consider's journey. What was the original idea? And and of course, consider has gone through its own evolution and pivots and all. Very eventful journey, I would say. so
00:24:46
Speaker
original idea was around internet of things. So the thing like very, very original idea was that um there are lots of sensors coming in, like but buying these sensors is becoming commodity over time. And then People would need a very sophisticated technology platform to connect all these diversified sensors because every company has a different protocol and everything else to connect and and know do that. So that was kind of more like, let's build a very consolidated IoT platform.
00:25:22
Speaker
And that will be a kind of dev device agnostic. We will build an integration layer on top of it. And then let people ah you know connect different sensors, and we build them a dashboard, and alerting, and all kind of things. It was as exciting as Gen AI these days, by the way. IoT was a very cool thing at that time.
00:25:42
Speaker
um So we went into that, found a couple of customers. Heathrow Airport was one of that. So they had lots of these vending machines and kind of convey air belts. So putting the sensors and you know i'm building them a dashboard and alerting like if there is something happened and all that. So did that, very cool thing.
00:25:59
Speaker
We found some of these construction companies who rent their equipment on the, you know, um, so, uh, applied that geo fencing and location tracking everything for them, build them a dashboard. And also we had a nice like three or four different applications, early stage looking okay. But then IBM and AWS and everybody came up with their own it platform. So it made our platform a bit obsolete, um, because, and then basically we had to be weird.
00:26:27
Speaker
um So that is where we ended up going into insurance. And it is again by chance that Andy was talking to one of the insurance company in London.
00:26:38
Speaker
um a casual chat that like no these days IoT is this, this, this, that, and this guy said, he was running the innovation ah of that you know in that insurance company. He said, I would love to see if you guys can do something in insurance as part of innovation project. kind of thing so oh and Then that is where we came up with this idea that actually we can apply IoT and change the way you look at the risk.
00:27:07
Speaker
there was this was in hypothesis that behavior is a better indicator of the risk and that was kind of formed the considers foundation even today still we are in that same foundation that behavior is a better indicator of risk than demographic parameters and everything else and to get the behavior you need huge amount of data and advanced technology to extract the behavior from the assets that you're ensuring.
00:27:33
Speaker
and then before and This is vehicle insurance. so we we we first I think the idea was more like common, generic, like anything, even if you take a health insurance and everything else. But it started with the motor insurance, and then we came up with this thing. If we can, through IoT and machine learning, if we can find out who how somebody is driving, their driving behavior,
00:27:57
Speaker
That would definitely act as a main rating factor in your premium calculation than like who you are, where you live, kind of a thing, question. And this guy was innovation led and then they can, okay, let's do that. So we ran that POC.
00:28:13
Speaker
um ah they basically because they did not had a policy like an actual insurance product to to adopt our you know ah technology product so they came up with that mileage based policy so basically pay what you drive kind of insurance like echo or I think lots of things are happening in India as well so at that time okay They came up with the trial, basically pilot customers, pick up less than 150 different things.
Growth, Challenges, and Investor Relations
00:28:44
Speaker
We did that, and then we created an algorithm. The policy included the cost of the IoT device. Yes, that's why. So said they're simply saying that um you when you buy a policy from us, we will send a kit.
00:28:59
Speaker
which will get installed in your vehicle. So kind of just put it there. Just put it there. Okay. Tracking the current location, live location. But initial version was just put that like device tracker kind of thing. It comes with your policy. And then they said that we will give you a score. Like you're driving behavior score.
00:29:27
Speaker
Something around that we are going to watch assume that you are not a good, not a bad driver, average driver. So you pay me 10 pound today. And over the time we will review it quarterly. um And if your score becomes six, we will refund you some money. If you will become four, you pay a dynamic kind of premium style thing that they tried um with our technology.
00:29:51
Speaker
So we built all that and they did that. So that proof of concept then ended up being a full-fledged product and they became our biggest customer. I think there was a point when we were earning 1.2 million pounds per year from them as a fee.
00:30:08
Speaker
ah something f but Model was basically per policy model. So like, you know, let's say we charge you let's say x pound per policy per year And then you go and sell all the policies. So you made a big customer out of it like no 1.2 million a year That way when were you at this revenue number by which year I Think it was ah ah I would say like when we when we ended up in insurance and basically when I became full-time, that is the time we have like contributed into an insurance. All the IOT phase happened when I was like doing a side view. So I think it was some around 2016-17 time I would say. And yeah your revenue was all from this one customer or there were other customers also?
00:30:55
Speaker
So primarily 98% from this customer. um And there's there are a few like, as you said, like we started in that IoT sense, like no beside ah some revenue that was there, like it was still coming up as a sort of, you know, legacy. But primarily coming from this one. I want to just quickly pause here. ah So this idea sounds interesting ah that you charge a premium according to behavior instead of according to demographics. like But I have not seen the this commonly available. Why is that? like This is not like a... I mean... Sir, I'll tell you.
00:31:40
Speaker
I think it's ah it's a mystery even today to me. I mean, I have got some idea. but So we sell this like technology platform to this one insurance company. And then we try to scale in the UK. There are lots of motor insurance companies. And we tried, we kind of take took it for granted.
00:32:04
Speaker
the whole like no But we struggle to find another customer. well like We find five or six, but the POC stays the same. And well more I think my my thinking is that it's more about the mindset of the insurance companies. And they didn't feel that it was going to happen.
00:32:29
Speaker
For me, I think I have, I can quote some of those offline conversations like, you are too tough, it's too hustle. Like, you know, you have to have an insurance company, you have to have hardware maintenance, you have to have a simple policy, you have to have premium, you have to have a business name, you have to have insurance. What kind of more and more often do it? Like, you have to have an insurance company, you know, regulated, regulatory, everything. You have to have an insurance company.
00:32:56
Speaker
go goka okay I love your technology. like amer I think that no claim bonus is the other way in which they are doing that, right? The behaviors, rewarding behaviors. ah well basically But that is basically you must you might be lucky. True, true, true. Yeah. Right. Okay.
00:33:17
Speaker
the katiga i interested was and like you can but ah childhood ba la go okay So you are now like, Essentially, I could call it a lifestyle business, right? One, one and a half million dollars of revenue, but single customer. So like how did it, what happened next? So um basically what happened was that when we tried to scale the motor insurance, like part of our business, it did not scale for the reason I would just discussed. Yes.
00:33:55
Speaker
We blamed ourselves. Indian eyes are blaming ourselves than blaming the market. um yeahni i'm ko gare Something is wrong. maybe hamm marketing hamed do physical gaja yeah yahaja you know You start being creative and all that kind of thing. So that is where um We ended up, you know, coming up on the plan here, maybe we should look at it a different time. Maybe it's sales team, the Orbiter and the market generation, lead generation, all kinds of things. Let's try to do it properly kind of things, right? So, I think the funding is going to be better. It's okay. The funding is going to be better. The team building is going to be proper.
00:34:46
Speaker
while going from founder led to a bit more like in the skill side. um So we we found the IQ capital. I think they were like our first investor, if I'm not mistaken. So they think invested money in us with the plan that two things. One, we will try to use the same concept into one more line of insurance other than motor. And then we try to scale our kind of thing. We got the funding. OK, then got the sales team.
00:35:17
Speaker
um and ah also product team. Typical thing that you kind of do, you like, um um with ah is smart nea let somebody else try to do the same thing. So, but don know so got the first funding round and then From there, it became a very typical kind of journey of a founder where you bring one investor, you set up a plan, try to scale by scaling your expenses.
00:35:49
Speaker
like excel ben t has me you get a revenue projections ski time i yes i hi youhan ii question laing it i got we are being very kindju whether otherwise it jada at thhan I think every founder would hear that kind of similar statements.
00:36:04
Speaker
This is a sale, but it's not a sale. It's expensive, but it's not. And then we became, very competitive guide obviously the motor thing did not take off. but with a of type that's butpu seeker why you non nepu sim aal to ke your head tinting main you seeker When you know that the customer is saying, I learned the technology, but kind of throw out the our allow you know, I'll get a sales team. Can I, they need to show that we have got six trial going on this customer. So a metric that, um,
00:36:40
Speaker
look at theite data <unk> hoja um my first learning iski datarimon ho bi kulo but i got valid datadrin hoga willing one data river so okay What was the wrong data you were tracking?
00:36:54
Speaker
Right, so it's like ah how many leads you are having, like and how many calls they're making, what is the size of our pipeline, what is the size of the market and like know how many competitors are there and and all the kind of different metrics. um ji kana cool and that's a different thing get an a correlated day like no and to the bottom line but And then basically ah the second line, maah ham negarra we started marine.
00:37:19
Speaker
in incidentland When did you start? When did you start? I think it was the first 100 years that I was here. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. 2015 was your first 100 years. We 2015 had was your a big party, I remember that first 100 way, 16,000 NMEs. So,
00:37:55
Speaker
oh oh we had 16,000 NMEs, 16,000 NMEs. We had data about the ships, all the global ships.
00:38:08
Speaker
All the data is available. So unlike the car industry where you have to put all the shifts are pre equipped with all these sensors for security regions. So they have to report to the port authorities and everything else. So all that data is available, but it was used for a different region. What we try to do is that get that um We had to buy it, basically. We had to take a partnership for those companies to use this into insurance. So that was easier route. So we went took that, took all these journey and everything, built our MVP, and then went into the market. In 2016, we had to launch it, basically. no okay Okay. And like you continue to do a lot of fundraise, I can see your biggest round was 2020, about $20 million. dollars
00:38:57
Speaker
Yes. So, what happened is, he <unk> familyli fundingly when he says stories allli and one word that I hate, and again, it's my personal hate. I don't want to generalize. 10x growth.
00:39:14
Speaker
yeah but that was has lieutenant we are postcommar chu jump um Okay. Okay. And I know, I'm not saying, I know like there are people who have done it. I like probably take a look at 100 founders. They have done maybe two or three have done it. 10X growth. 10X growth. Start plant. This is a good plant. 10X. 10X. And then I realized he basically,
00:39:47
Speaker
so techy it's like with all due respect to universal, because of them we were like, no, they are what we were. So I'm not by any means being disrespectful to any universal. they cotaagi mea
00:40:01
Speaker
As a founder, you need to know when you bring an investor, there are different motif hookap in west kanea abjohe tolafa like institutional benjagaos a different yogaga bc cap capacity jiheto but ga lago but It's not about you they what they do is wrong. their business model luka so that's how like so mahape as a founder I have to end with my mistake. I did not felt that At that time, I did not have that kind of...
00:40:40
Speaker
like can you summarize that learning which you've got so you're saying hey you chose the wrong investor at the wrong stage to gasier steel guy investor honate you ah so basically they call up agara a stage me is excuseel capass jtio vc skias pivotto more I'm not saying all, but most of them, they are into high growth, like lose keep make it or lose it model. like no Go big or go home.
00:41:06
Speaker
ah unke unke beach your baalaa is not kibaa ram tokelo but cak atto ulo yafi the module like in the duo and pickel the I've worked very closely on the other side of the table. I've been a technical advisor to at least 10 different VC companies myself.
00:41:25
Speaker
abi weka one advice gu thumb me on my side but So I know that I'm learning a lot. ah got no apo do millionia yeah yeah yeah They want that 2 million. mayor aki companyiivalu mallon known karatar parts millionvalluation mean malodo million uppudiaha yeah They want keep within than twelve months yeahpa million evaluation no thus milliono and then you go and raise another like and and three million but we do ah wo iga abuga middleo ex salli meu kaakarro ah yeah sal with next funding round honay yeah i need that that And not Mahape, Mahape Surah Hota Khel. As a founder, you have no idea. You feel like you're very successful until you find out that you're not.
00:42:13
Speaker
So why do you say you were early stage? You were saying that you were early stage, but you had more than a million, like a million and a half dollars of revenue. So it is like but In a way, you could take PMF as a false We felt that the customer i would take 7 million pounds. We have got the product market fit. Again, those are Jamsan as a founder that you make. At the time, they felt that when you look back, you got one customer.
00:42:56
Speaker
right
00:42:58
Speaker
So, ah look so you've got one customer. Yes, you're making a million a job here, but it's not a product market fit. Okay. It's because you just got one customer. They might have a very unique need and you just happened. So you can become a consulting company, but as you point just got lucky basically yeah you just got lucky. You don't have a repeatable success. So what um maybe you at that he mean le ven you are a margaret toyga institutionals just the
00:43:30
Speaker
ah okay When did you realize that this is a like it's a mirage? You are saying that as a founder you feel you are very successful. ah Higher value should be around risk. This is all a mirage.
00:43:46
Speaker
So basically, workakki de come my withta poy do haja solar sa journey eapurra and we are very frequently reading I have to ah quote Andy. He's the best guy I know in terms of raising the fund. Because he is like a ninja of fund raising. Amazing. I never seen somebody that's that credible, like go out in there. Because he's such a visionary. you Go out and sell the vision and that's what investors like. where yaha yeah ah but kosh nigger you know what you're doing and you really have a big vision. So anyway, and it is a good idea.
00:44:21
Speaker
So, um and I think total you raised more than $40 million dollars still did. Yes, for but more than $40 million of funding. So, so who work ka basically who i abnaia and you made a a pilot ah jump lea you made a about customer i million dollars the menuta but yeah but but market pet to ab bikka like okay what you do, you try to come ah ask your product team to come up with the aggressive roadmap of a product.
Restructuring and Strategic Learning
00:44:46
Speaker
yeah yeah but school multi language vna ha yeah banana have multiple You know all the features at feature factory, you go out this market and everything else. So suddenly your expense, that was, let's say, you know, $10 a month becomes $100 a month, 10 X increase in the, you know, your expenses. And then,
00:45:13
Speaker
iraqi sells honi ney yeah Because all the assumption that we made ah never works. The plan that you make never works. um So expense will always be planned. It always works.
00:45:25
Speaker
yeah lobby um like You probably understand what you are, but your sales revenue. So let's not get too fussy around it. Give it more time. Take care.
00:45:38
Speaker
ah ch <unk>shki data remember absu k kaic up my name trikara I took a bet. What I would do, I would immediately go back, cut down my bottom line to a label where I don't need to expand 10x, stop that.
00:45:59
Speaker
Bring it down and under control, then give it another year. But again, name keep going. Keep going because that's like, you know, like, you know, think about it. Basically, you're on treadmill now. ah basically kawaki wapahu By the time you realize, and then six months later, you start like, you know, you go again, raise 5 million again.
00:46:30
Speaker
and okay dk um like And before you realize, you're sitting in a board meeting. Now you have a suddenly, rather than a founder of that business, you suddenly have got cheap ex Chief Chief Y, Chief Z. Suddenly, and your your entire focus is going into saying, wea miracle ala round race can i invest help recognize and makes your border kapuurra line character correct as a founder, you like shift your gear.
00:46:58
Speaker
and you will You will be criticized if you are too much into the business. You are not a good founder. like know so i Don't try to micromanage. Get the space. Leave the business. Let it run. You guys focus six months from here, not today.
00:47:13
Speaker
so bo sari gaimil tehaco and you tried to hi sa buttoeka i think you said to adopt that like i Before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you realise, before you You're just being presented a PowerPoint slide and you're looking at it. Of course, you're asking questions and everything else. But again, ultimately, <unk>raura procaek gua marto and but brandan the banana or the skiba as i saygi put happy upll you
00:47:50
Speaker
but area yeah so you do that ah no so e that egg a ground reioos like craa j web history is a plus o type and b minus o die bota bla oda character technical this get built and again oh I think the learning myself is like you know everything that we hear are true but it's about up this contextoous school like a cas implement gu
00:48:22
Speaker
right a aco kohibi nutition valab andda butat tab poto is a general but you have to apply So for example, ah one of the biggest learning I have and I think I still believe in that is you should be on the business, not in the business as a founder to scale.
00:48:38
Speaker
but and What is the difference on the business? Rather than you just trying to do everything yourself and being everywhere, try to, on the business, you set the bid and you set the strategy and have a team to drive that strategy and and do that. So that's basically being on the business. In the business, what would be up with operational logo? I agree. But there is a prerequisite that we all forget. We simply go into saying on the business one night.
00:49:04
Speaker
For that to happen and you still, if you want to be successful, you need to have a team that needs to be rock solid, rock star, team of rock stars below you that you have built trained and then you have built a trust over time. So you have assembled Karthiya team. Not always you get everybody right in one place. You hire Karthiya fire, Karthiya fire, Kuch look, Swartha and Jayate. But essentially there will be a point if you're working in the right way or hiring strategy is right, you will end up with a team of good.
00:49:37
Speaker
layer beneath you. And that is the time where it's a time for you to step out and like, you know, be on the business than in the business. But if you do it before that, you're dead. and Right. And that's what happens. When did you wake up? But you were living in a... yeah me Basically, the first bake up call was in 2021.
00:50:00
Speaker
What was the trick? We told you about the bake up call. But wo basically, someco um beer by time i d ba and i have this the channy letter are some things not working fine, maybe. i'll be jojaka But basically, we an actionable wake-up call. An actionable wake-up call. Basically, a very early stage. with voltaai You have to get rid of this man, this this business. Okay. What was the total revenue by then? thought step pal Let me take you there. I'm very happy to call myself stupid in that way. I'm happy to call myself stupid in that I'm very happy to call myself stupid in that have to put the mossul motor on self. So customer can notice that we are no longer going to support this business. We are getting out of the motor.
00:51:15
Speaker
they yeah ah just do you take a decision yeahja yeah and um It doesn't, ROI doesn't make sense. A customer, it's not about a platform. I agree, but again, again, timing, right? This is your timing, right? So we built a solution, we built top insurance company. Marine was a very good success story, I would say. Marine was... How much was Marine giving you revenue by 21?
00:51:52
Speaker
ram's a two million cast pasta Okay. Okay. And this is again, part policy you were charging some. Okay.
00:52:04
Speaker
typical salight and saiaki of basic advanced premium enterprise yeah And then based on that, you, uh, like, uh, uh, volume, but what's it, what's the one off kind of local recurring life.
00:52:21
Speaker
So, simplistic pricing. but like i the though i think pun a million but i meanu shalaa And became a literally a very known name in the London, the specialty marine market. Everybody knew us and we had a very good rapport. All of these notable, you know, insurance companies, like, were using our our product. and so but but del lata We have a 10x growth idea. We have a growth idea. In the US, London has a growth idea.
00:52:52
Speaker
good um the haka huki okay you work at Let's hire a chief commercial officer. CMO, CIO, Chief Revenue Officer basically. Head of sales. Let's hire him. Then we'll try to that person to set up a team in all different geographies. de deriv that okayable um karring a dega aboutti hammara headquater yeah revenue customer happy hand high but Anyway, we were voted out in the board. And has insurance companies yeah like marine insurance companies.
00:53:36
Speaker
so family mar nameia abe ofba me insulin so happening
00:54:03
Speaker
He will not be able to succeed. the ah ah u ver and We noted out. um megaottiga disagree and commit Let's try to try it out.
00:54:16
Speaker
ahbue kewaki a that person We have a team that has a partnership with the U.S. market. The London market has a lot of service ability and all that kind of things. We have a lot of customers who have a lot of revenue. And the U.S. market, the U.S. market has a lot of revenue increase. We have a lot of people who have a lot of money. We have a lot of customers who have a lot of money.
00:54:46
Speaker
and And also we had a two um other kind of set up. California, BC, like Silicon Valley investors. side unka mindset bothti alagota and For regions. I'm not saying wrong. like half back European investors. come mine the malagota Again, for right region. European investors.
00:55:15
Speaker
Excuse me. Go steady, slow and steady, but don't rush into it. That's generally like people like commerce venture and all. boy chapable Sustainable growth. Sustainable growth, gros fine, take your time, don't rush into it and all. Silicon Valley would be like, okay, go. Go big or go home. Go home. Go big or go home.
00:55:38
Speaker
um ah ah yeah like you know founders apa bor me exite pay european we like you know investor butai excite me aque but like noilcon valley all And may god bless your soul in that case kimkikaova yeah but don conflict yeah okay then you have to you have to then try to find a middle ground somewhere in that. So rather than trying to do something which is perfect for a business, you try to figure out a point where these both investors can kind of sign off.
00:56:09
Speaker
like okay okay well the like no though um And i we are not basically, I would say, ah rather than blaming investors, I would say, invest kiam make perky gu nea they did what they used to do and they will still do. And ah in my company for longa I go and probably take a funding from those investors. But as a founder, it's your job to know what you're doing and how you try to, you know, take those investors and at what stage and how, in what terms. Okay.
00:56:38
Speaker
yeah as it out you You need to have the confidence to say no to your investors. and like kill hammaipajaaninans i no kanega that the kamarias what will the bamaja majority say they still etc okay okay i am be at that john with single yeah yeah card for what was the way but char decision who hadto hammaia likegael faing ta mean ya had dog like hamo karmaji like ne name and this is like none doesn't make sense inside all We have to just just stand out. We have to make sense of the majority. hai companyicia
00:57:11
Speaker
youhan if hundred eightka and caposarri majority russia capacitye ah jehova were voting butinghogi board abboardman boarding nogi yeah yeah logankahaha yeah where you would go ahead ahga working but but was it a wrong piece it to high as the florida guy but what it do sorry was it a wrong decision to hire that sales head the seat yes I think the right person wrong company.
00:57:36
Speaker
okay So this a guy was coming from a company where he had brought 60 people in his sales team. i like ah ah busandek go up bloggged to like ah panche million revenue company make like be ground Not his mistake. You're hiding the wrong guy.
00:57:57
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes. ah um upna of najo voha if you are kind of just ceo hi here look Coming from like big enterprise company and he came in and tried to pro like implement all the processes that you will see with the company's five billion dollar revenues. It will kill your innovation, it will kill your growth, it will kill your everything.
00:58:21
Speaker
So, but these are the names like we yeah like big name, up up be file butaldo get the log you know, you'll get credibility. i and liy Funding me next round credibility. millig yeah exactly I don't know if you need to put a name, like heavy names. but about beach million revenue vmeen financiallia jarraota You need to put some heavy names on your team to be able to do that. So at that time, you're doing that. If you need to watch in a TV and replay, you're writing in day in and out. like no yeah Do not realise these. thinking car
00:59:04
Speaker
yeah like yeah So, when did you get the conference to say no? Tell me that journey. Like what happened when you said no? What was it you said no to? So, I remember butlayataki um I presented a product and technology roadmap in one of my board meetings. And I think it was Q4, Q3 and Q1 were present for Q4 and Q1.
00:59:32
Speaker
my name presentedaf teji chikari mea I would like to put all of my, not all, 60-70% of my resources to optimize the cost.
00:59:43
Speaker
so be basically we spending ah $200,000 per month AWS bill ho game era which is not sustainable. mera you know orvi a shihe architecture here miracle books or nike i need to so of our lean lea I need to optimize my bottom line next six months. So we have to do that. many pergenia very number calculated confident kahaha is not shana So
01:00:18
Speaker
but not the right time. Don't look at your bottom line at all. Just look at for like, you know, come up, go back, come up with a strategy that increases our, like, you know, front line, top line, sends growth with your help there, rather than optimizing, but we don't care about that for now. You're thinking the wrong way. Right. Because in the next round, investors will look at top line more than bottom line. Hang on, I think. I know you may have an AWS bill called DOLAC or ACLAC.
01:00:49
Speaker
Let's put some resources into
Operational Changes and Technological Advancements
01:00:51
Speaker
it. That A class for me is like freaking 1.2 million. like yeah but me go ma le here say locally like and Let's assume you sold it to like four or five more customers. So yeah think about that way. asani with the way or are they they and all that like no it's like the mohapa millla bicycl like No, I don't think this is right. I think I'm going to do that.
01:01:14
Speaker
But I respect to you. and appco aco yes a feature like ati me but justcoy a proof cartuy scoer nakedgaba growth butre is saleski I promise it's my responsibility to deliver that within the timeline you guys need, but I'm going to do that. let's but no s appka at the no i gotrogatotorato latafa likegato i simply had key How about this? be app allow make aruga But until you do that, let me do that.
01:01:40
Speaker
that a lot our but just yeah you hiring me who are ah so maybe i nokaha but think everyone outed out so mo but know you get the milk and and right right yeah ah But eventually you bought out your investors. ah How did that happen? Yes. So basically what happened was, there was a $1 billion raise.
01:02:07
Speaker
So Joe investors, they be similar malima mohamuka polanek next round will be the UNICON round.
01:02:26
Speaker
you go up to they like another when you gotam say grore ram sorry b million head that will really take us to two years kame meidega ah doesmi vikakaru her main type car will ah wentto bara the ra million jazega reo but we we put it a new vieto but milliono be hey yeah And two million is more than enough to take the company to a point where it will be valued at like, you know, kind of a billion dollars.
01:03:08
Speaker
like ah um we have a gurokanabo tara de ru yeah right and growth is going to act as a catalyst because we are a digital native business and people who are even thinking out a little bit lower, they're allowed to go back. So we need to be ready to get the scale and let's try to... Get it COVID ready like a remote whenever ready.
01:03:40
Speaker
um connect a figure skills day yeah product team increase kanai engineering is scale company a data science machine learning whileo increase kana And we had a huge amount of hiring during COVID, onboarding v kihoe area remote lia kuorai and then on paper it looks good. But they had no connection with the team. like no but the ah a who I think productivity is a good thing, rather than immunity. For them, they are existing players, leadership players, etc.
01:04:24
Speaker
As a founder, these are distractions for you. ah ane kail laga do leadershipipki will me That on but we could have used for some productive work. So you end up doing some non-productive work. but upra market ka um According like a putra approach to our hypothesis of digital adoption, jada hoga web big ake markets may but <unk> may basically guywa you on a like i me take a like stop down okay i we to our hypothesis of digital adoption,
01:04:55
Speaker
Insurgency is very risk and worse kind of things. They are all about risk. So in the writing, they will always think about the worst case, then try to come up with kind of things. So in the industry, they are like wired like that way. So what happens when they have a Let's try the remote working. You just need the remote working. Right.
01:05:31
Speaker
<unk>ka domaaway the Bottom line. Top line. ahil gabbba exel mantega project giba projection ventega you ja the genuine region the a guys lina you ab hojaga is vina hu bojaga vina you you have ah vikini inhiba likeki humbi cooper'm lot of product and yeah love tea happy yo abi guys hi ah can i get You find the root cause, you find the mitigation and you say, okay, now at this time, it will happen. Continuously, the story of all the startups. And then after in 2022,
01:06:09
Speaker
um There came a point when we said we have to put a bridge around and into the company to get the strategy working and do that. Big one, what everybody is going to put in existing investors are going to do ah this bridge around 10 million and then It will take a year to ah recover from this COVID, and everything else, and then market will go back, and we'll do that kind of thing. So, bridge round will cover our decision. And week two, week one, pay work everybody will have a 10 million bridge round. Week two, let's have a meeting, because investors have decided that they no longer want to do a bridge round.
01:07:02
Speaker
and it is almost impossible to raise new fund in this time of the time because everybody was he stopped investing. Go, restructure your company to be breakeven. Okay, great. That's awesome.
01:07:27
Speaker
You've got 170-180 people. bri and ana to put this my this challenge lo team pianoana reggato hoi satta ball the catalog any anyway um nagargra break ibn hubi gay tobi like do domain and har ra kar and gefevo ah like the magic hogan in time to like scal everything
01:07:51
Speaker
and Anyway, we undergra sorry well we ah understand we cannot support you anymore. So you are on your own. Take a decision. so but umne koka scale down hoki We did two or three round of layoffs. um That was the hardest period of my time ah life. One of the hardest period. um gay oh um na put a lay for us vorava fibiu a We tried to sell the company. and i think i are tacortensco not but and mea come to become employees to save kaagler koata likena thoughtha she credit the dayre my employeeska ah customers guys so gonna um because We the As you know, like in selling a company again, you are running out of time, you need something in weeks and months and then it doesn't happen that way. kuwa yeah teach liquid de sentimentalta Let's put it into administration.
01:08:57
Speaker
yeah that's all ta napo yeah ah the sort of <unk>a Basically, not giving up. um malatta e cardre but Then one of our luck with bit of trying and luck, yawaki one of our customers, customer who we were talking for some time as a potential sale, we went back to them. kia city situation of hiab hammara hol yeah Sorry, to waste your time. jabaahalomo with saethhan All that.
01:09:34
Speaker
oh ah We theopaga and we probably want to put that deal on hole and can fit them there but luckily has awa to work out um um have big set up.
01:09:48
Speaker
In the U.S., there are 18 to 20 different subdivisions, like M.G.A. and M.G.A. and M.G.A. and M.G put this deal because we were always looking.A. to have a partner. So two hour meeting, discussion discussion, they were ready to give us a line of depth against our liquidity as a collateral.
01:10:46
Speaker
all the things and rate of interest you be tender with that no person come will charge that but yeah that funding tony bounnaa demibo have them basically like collateral raonepna line of depth cola oh how naked we took the money oh and door um man or andine he basically i decide guy away he ba was and year after there they yeah and keep about company only rest ablole raha We have got two options from here. option wrote eithervalla wrote the attack at mr stationway You all will get zero. all la data i keep be gonna make the company version to x million then depending on your sales holding you'll get ab youc the amount of money and If you guys are ready to sign up within 24 hours,
01:11:33
Speaker
We have this deal on table, 24 hours. What did they have to sign up for in 24 hours about selling their stake back to you? Yes. who they have to They have to basically sell it back like to us.
01:11:52
Speaker
and lilivioa here nahinna pa helaay at the you kamoga and all navi you legal option both in It's really binary. yeah It's either this or bankruptcy. and this this that So we you don't have a choice. um Just take our call. Obviously, ah samne via guti so we everything else. We brought back all the sales back in our company. Obviously, we put 80% of our equity as a collateral to them. abibi will electator And we have an option to pay the loan back and get the equity.
01:12:26
Speaker
um chunki They are incidents companies, they have no desire to own a software company. We don't have any desire to own you kind of thing. But hu it is good to have a strategic partnership with you so that noki ummara tofa u hega ya um for marathhan galllenika like the digitized jason may all that we do any fraud to us. so right fight We are they also to delight with going to pay you all the work that you're doing. It's not like we're going to ask you to do. So basically, the strategy is going to be got the company down to 30 people.
01:13:15
Speaker
um and And India Night took again came back to the founder mode, real founder mode. So we went into that. Literally we fired all of our sales team, every single person in our sales team that time.
01:13:35
Speaker
and You know, ND and I, we were like, you know, running the company, ND was focusing more on sales side, I was more on operation technology, everything else, I was doing that. And also supporting ND wherever we supported each other. And we hired one junior sales guy just to support ND, you know, to do that.
01:13:53
Speaker
In 2023, when we had like, it came down from 170 people to 30 people, sales team gone from 12 people sales team to one guy, customer success team went from nine people to just one guy, right? Our customer retention rate has gone like double. We got some of the, like, you know, customer sales growth was 206% of sales growth, you know, within the 2023.
01:14:23
Speaker
with just ah bigho like no that's the kind of learning data learning but you come i'm in the founder mode but right also it's very important he yeam my or anddi hoakta hammo company ummaa revnifin niiagahanana viniiagagahoakta my hamlo abnave youk koham ah that a the that shea satti chehibara da sha butrami paar janato it cannot run in that mode that is running today So we realized that. So in 2023, we devoted ourselves completely in Tokyo. Let's hire the second layer of leadership. um sea level haringering on drtory occur again We will then grow them into C-Labels, head of product, head of engineering, head of sales.
01:15:10
Speaker
yeah the ja yeah bahiha hammi kuni yeah marrias opera peninul command same time um mean bier We these three key roles, product, delivery, and the sales.
01:15:23
Speaker
um nikara i'm to define correcting or who we need. i'm defineing are a character isplifying Then we came up with our like um the leadership principle. up an i It is called U-Boat.
01:15:36
Speaker
um many defining iraqi how mistake come put my ni and viewboard are simply mele bay The person who is coming in must have sense of urgency. but b become atla bilihota The most 100% believe in where we are going, what are we are doing, what is the purpose of the company. like go ah O means operating with self-agency. We don't want people to spoon fade them. People should be like, take the direction, go and get it done. right And dealing with ambiguity.
01:16:04
Speaker
Because we are running in this, ah time period we all make up things. The judgment and ambiguity are the people who can really love who love the ambiguity and like thrive. And then T was total commitment. hamme wo look niche age youo job dr re People who are into it, here like a totally committed. oipura bannaya And then we work for two months to work into the message message.
01:16:33
Speaker
And we really took nine months to fill these three rules. We may have interviewed. I don't know. upate but to lo buthamai at least touchra yogaga tioolli We found those. Now I'm very happy. he timpura ab tohaja javis abdi ko it um meawati aby we are again having the control but letting lots of things to be done by these like you know the next level of team and now because we've got the right people the gro trajectories jane surukariti what do haja base lavae rene ali yeah kima testti mayor ab milk a dooper growth let's can we have a 10% growth with somebody else driving the sales and delivery and operation
01:17:19
Speaker
and right i wish to etama i toky him passw him but I think we are going to probably end up 180 to 200% growth. Same growth as last year, but not primarily done by me and Andy. A team is like doing that. How much will you do this year? Revenue. What will your estimate of revenue for current year?
01:17:38
Speaker
So,
01:17:41
Speaker
plus but okay okay so um mean that zero and and kar um but dojata so but with so and what will be your EBITDA in this? Like dollars EBITDA.
01:18:03
Speaker
Yes. Wow. We are operating pounds of seven million of, uh, uh, seven million pound of cost. 50% is your avatar. um may better targets challenge personar kids along But that's pretty much. So, uh, of Excel and his healthy company, basically PowerPoint. when healthy the company kind of ecola ninety eighty And, um,
01:18:29
Speaker
Basically, I am very conservative mode. 12 million is conservative mode. 12 million is killlirima barba nihugato um mill very and we'll probably most likely get there. And I'm very fine for my editor to go from, ah sorry, my cost, not editor, my bottom line to go from seven to 12 million.
01:18:55
Speaker
Again, but I will only let it go when I am 80, 90% sure, if you're 18 million, But it, you're not going to pay for it. Okay, okay, okay. This is like like, how much of your debt is paid off now? The debt you had taken? Um, Charlie's spent in Faker.
01:19:25
Speaker
Okay. Amazing. And another one or two years, I assume you'll be able to play it because um um ah hamjadeto isi salga and the kaep kaam ksette but i'm donebu gonikaam'garre get this is a blood line. We want that line of grade to be opened. You never know. ah bhe logwa an anki Market is in a stress mode.
01:19:48
Speaker
So one of our strengths is that there are lots of good companies with good technology and good people, but they don't they no longer have a funding. If you market both of these others, it will dry down. So if we can get down, I will not be surprised if our company acquires Muthalu. In fact, if we get that deal, if we get a customer base, we get a technology base.
01:20:11
Speaker
I have a geographical reach for you. I don't know if it will be okay for you. It will be okay for you to be required. If you don't have the money, you will get the money. I just need to send an email and next day I will have that 10 million. That's the blessing that not everybody has now. We have got that. We have got 10 million.
01:20:34
Speaker
Help me understand your revenue split. So one is, of course, you're you're like a services business where you are helping digitize that company with whom you did the deal. ah so hamnikakari kobi amnikaka yaki We don't have the service. I think service revenue will be but probably, I don't know, 10 percent. be yogama okay but yeah incojobm cur basically What we're trying to do is key they are They are insurance companies, like the our our strategic partner.
01:21:04
Speaker
abjo problem uncohe That's not going to be a very unique problem. So and nikaraki what trying to do here is, I'll take an example of aviation. So my this partner like you know the company, ah in co aviation incident may write cur they wanted us to digitize that.
01:21:24
Speaker
hamna dezeky yeah your aviation with yourco problem and They are like at least 20 other insurance companies, hack us mejoki but similar problem.
01:21:36
Speaker
get okay isco subsequently prioritizeed theham ah bson manak and cor yeah ARR based. To make a contract, there is no consulting, we just build a product for you. You will be my first customer, you will have something to go, but it is not something that we will build for you. It's not your IP. It's just a customer that we're building with.
01:21:59
Speaker
gua modela umviation bikara We are about to sign four deals in like in last two months. like and region There is no fluffiness, actual end user name, a problem. upnipathai umnu viha butra product juan and nick hour atly solving a real problem than your imaginative problem i So it's very good. And then construction.
01:22:28
Speaker
and now Monday, tomorrow, we are going to launch construction. Oh, we identified while doing that, identify there, like at least lots of people out there having same problem. We're going out with them with the reference customer, proven solution, valuable things, Benjamin situation, no flopiness. So I'm sure we're going to do that. So I say, I think that we are just doing that as a product build.
01:22:55
Speaker
And now it is <unk>ish split abniallaakki hammara amaki yeah by the end of this year, will have we will be serving six different line of insurance businesses. Okay. And in aviation construction, mba and kaakin transportation and um war and political violence.
01:23:19
Speaker
well And there is one more. It's not coming in my head. But like this, particularly there are six line of businesses that we prioritize with them. We're going to build that, give it to them, and then sell that to the rest of the world. I was assuming Marine must be the biggest today in the pie. It was biggest, but by a next three months, aviation will take over.
01:23:42
Speaker
Okay, okay. What is the nature of the product? Is it a workflow management product? Is it like a CRM product it risk management up we sort have we started with that it is So yes i a very good question so hamkakata let me explain. like so there are um The problem that we solve for our customer is by twofold. We call it two by two matrix. On this side, we are all about providing intelligence insights, hidden insights, to help them understand the risk in a much better way so that they can charge appropriate premium. In insurance, as they say, there is no bad risk if you're charging the right premium.
01:24:23
Speaker
right So true agar koi the environment does packet tappi thousandtabi health incident um is not bad as long as it is charging appropriate amount of money to that guy. to ah Basically, one one thing like first vertical for our solution is about pricing. So Hamara solution basically we collect a ton of data. jaho es and plainho kiten one carra count co kahakaha travelelka thank youtaraka crew i eraka pilot like this roots perhe ah sara but like no data better than everything compute carque the tracky What is the probability?
01:24:56
Speaker
of the claims happening from these planes and what type of claim it could happen, what is the frequency of the claim that is anticipated, what is the severity of the claim. So frequency of the poor AI, machine learning, predictive modeling, let's say fleet of a plane, fleet of construction projects.
01:25:16
Speaker
they get a very deep insight and predictive ah models and output quantitative basically quantitative analysis of the portfolio that they are about to write.
01:25:27
Speaker
That helps them to adjust their premium in the right way. Along with that, we also provide them a qualitative analysis. You cannot, everything is a number. By the way, just FYI, I'm just taking an example. We also give them lots of one-liner insights on that dashboard along with the quantitative things to make their kind of mind. So, this is the area to help them price it better using the big data. And this is before they write the policy or even after writing the policy, they look at this data. So, in the insurance market, they have to pay for it, but actually, they have to pay for it. Generally, they have to pay for the insurance program.
01:26:20
Speaker
Right, okay. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management. So,
01:26:36
Speaker
absolutelyally
01:26:40
Speaker
after writing, it's called exposure accumulation management. So, after writing, it's called exposure and accumulation management Yeah, there was a blast in this city. Now you want to know as an insider, what is my exposure? I need to know. That has been a biggest challenge for them. yamalo cargo into sorry the chattava la man butana but gotta cargo internal thought got um there a mallo up but We Iranian port that has been explosion. but It's a Baltimore incident. to other na people pool to together rich bridge collapses right no You would be a Christian insurance company. Not even like people like, let's say, just senders.
01:27:43
Speaker
like, you know, really hard to go into the TV news channels and our analysis and everything. We were really talking like, this is the kind of goods that is in here.
01:27:57
Speaker
sky community see then back up the pricecing fta and he hasga out port bunda apply ummolapura the impactpu analysis of thepura So we had lots of data and insight around that kind of thing. so <unk> we will use exposure management So that is our one vertical. It's intelligence basically, providing you with intelligence to drive through, if you take a better decision.
01:28:21
Speaker
so okay ah twoeraified money product guy will operational aff efficiency and seeker so the underwriting process ah sam mejo um I'll give you a like but good example in the commercial insurance. Let's say up kias you are a musk. You are a shipping company. You are a commercial ship. You are all Caribbean who for example. like and of like the soip ah bapuka in insuranceranana but you will do acobatic risk teamhoia bo cathering and they will collect lots of data about your safe key
01:28:55
Speaker
on the csk food detail in ya work type eify ah ah yeah japanese saifurra just said resume bannahi bydata teka who If you have a broker, if you have an insurance broker, if you have a broker,
01:29:24
Speaker
So broker will take the information from them and also may build more PPTs, PDF documents, images, videos and all that kind of information to make a return event. And they will send it to let's say 20 insurance companies.
01:29:41
Speaker
itcor the don keap premium jacarro yeah The insurance company They have to take that email, read that email, watch the video, take the email, PDF, etc. They They
01:30:08
Speaker
but skiba upco santons check karnahe for yeah sanson like san santon here gibbba uppo etc. api appetite che can check cu with the egg et even and within your appetite or not appetite ah for limit check community we yeah
01:30:24
Speaker
So, there are lots of checks and work through that you have to go through. And by doing it manually, it will be a submission, it will be a submission goal basically. So, we have You have broken the video, to do the same. submission will be an insolence. How about for a submission pre We have-bind process to do during the same. the very cumbersome XLME, if it does this, then we will enter Yogi, if it does this, then we will enter Yogi, if it does this, then we will So it automates everything. So using the computer vision enter Yogi. of optical OCR and, you know, a little bit of AI, NLP and variety of technology rule engine.
01:31:02
Speaker
upco caba thanks jesa broly akeass pageja opcuus canadianor of meea yo kihota kaaki Let's say if you receive 20,000 submission email every year, you probably entertain out of 20,000 and 1,000.
01:31:17
Speaker
so uni hajao particular i ni number right but um but labour pura data oni ejago technically ki cucautto hammaas and gakata un sagarco to Don't worry about it, we'll take care of that. yeah kajaio westta osobi sanpu car kuraca up ecriva de kuga perra deka decision lena ka okay So huge operational efficiency and like no providing them again.
Data Transformation and Insurance Automation
01:31:40
Speaker
So you're able to take that.
01:31:43
Speaker
gar So you're basically taking unstructured information and converting it into data which can be analyzed and you can take a decision on that. So that is one part is like converting unstructured to structured data, ocubafi ah running it through the set of rules and workflows and some checks and integrations and so on.
01:32:04
Speaker
but look the your sister mean na sing the facus curcurae agent-based pura seama puraar kuakke dena and now we um We are very close to like do it more into like a Tesla model. butjara likekacope autopi okay um butlip acu You want to, if you want to drive manually to turn a button system is completely manual. her teach we ab test carroe yeahha app like yla part I'm fine. that you happy tikra automatorga automate So basically you decide how much automation you need or system can give you autonomous driving.
01:32:37
Speaker
okay Okay, amazing. I had one follow up question on the first product of intelligence. sir So how do you gather the data? Like say airline, Kalya, you said like you like aviation insurance, may how do you get the data? Like when a insurance company gets a particular plane to insurance? Yeah, so it's a mixture of third party data that we have to buy.
01:33:06
Speaker
okay ah or some data is available in public domain. So you just go and access it. So for example, flight tracking, like which flightage where it flight It's a public domain data. lot of andpujana va yeah indian case company guyi kittananaurra like no tail number cap butra detail internal yeah <unk> information aquajanii concept captain uraraowkika history yeah That is data that you have to go and buy from some of these authorities.
01:33:34
Speaker
yeah okay and You have like some API digressions or something with these authorities. so depend card likei proud and can be Not one single provider can give you all the data. So you probably end up buying data from six different providers.
01:33:48
Speaker
co excel filemo data coachaptp but datata koki api j ah put up up public do minimum data wa havecobe based graphing we can but yeah and All that kind of things. So a mixture of things. You collect all these things together and then typical data processing, cleaning, harmonization, everything happen, that is what we have to do.
01:34:06
Speaker
okay okay okay i'm just so ah what is your ah you you know You said you will do acquisition for technology ah as one of the reasons. ah what ah What technology are you looking
SaaS Market Evolution and Business Value Proposition
01:34:20
Speaker
for that you don't currently have? For example, let's say hamme be so we have to do 20 different line of businesses over the last three years. They have got the good solution.
01:34:39
Speaker
ah Okay, we can acquire them and speed up our time to build that. Got it. Okay. Okay. ah How do you think this market will evolve? Like, do do you think that these products You know, the pricing power, will it, will you have pricing power or will there be a lot of other compet competitors and the pricing power will keep going down? Well, basically SaaS products may typically, like first mover advantage, Hothai would then eventually the price pressure comes in. Abhi, you are enjoying the first mover advantage, right? Because I'm assuming the products you're winning are. um So I think it did it did varies. So in some in some lines, we are, we are kind of first mover.
01:35:25
Speaker
in some we are first follower and some we are kind of like one of many. So my like my learnings and my kind of things is that it's okay to be a first mover but we are running in this world you can that's not sustainable model basically you cannot build your business with the assumption that you are the only one that is going to do that because ah be selfpa saywa sola lambater yata pita mehanana
01:35:59
Speaker
ah the firstsh followloers than The biggest risk you have, like when you are a first mover company, the biggest risk that you have is your first follower can come and kill you because they don't have to do all the experiments that you had to do. yeah Like write what you have done, and then there, they've got little superior solution that you have.
01:36:23
Speaker
That's the biggest risk I would i see right now if you're a first mover. oh But if you are in a mature market where there are many providers, then you have to find your differentiator. And our differentiator at the moment is I think two two things. One is that the consolidation of like you don't have to like go through 20 different systems. And and those 20 systems does not need to be ours. Maybe they're 10 hours. then But we will consolidate everything to your make your life easy. That's one. Those are the kind of intelligence and everything that we provide. It has been proven. It works. And we're solving the real problem. ah And price point wise, as well, because we are not
01:37:06
Speaker
building on investor money. So the solution that we're building is very efficient. As I said, he jama pass e lineup is a stateto me engineering team ki societyi like what's at low ah engineeringing team said ahi in a and i' but I'm going to deliver six line-up businesses. So Wow, amazing.
01:37:35
Speaker
yeah so very pass war advantage mary pass ah So unless somebody else is coming with their own money and all the knowledge that we have, all the hard knowledge and hard skills, yes, we will have a competition. Otherwise, like um we will get our edge a little bit somewhere in that process. amazing Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. you know It was a real pleasure talking to you. No problem. Good, really lovely talking to you as well. ah