Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Policybazaar: Growth, IPO & Future Bets | Tarun Mathur
46 Plays6 hours ago
"If you're going to find something, think of building this for the next 20 years. Think very long term."
This powerful advice from Tarun Mathur underscores the importance of long-term vision in entrepreneurship, reminding founders that enduring companies aren't built overnight but over decades.
Tarun Mathur is the Co-Founder & Chief Business Officer at Policybazaar for Business, India's leading online insurance marketplace. With an impressive 17-year journey since co-founding the company in 2008, Tarun has been instrumental in its growth, including the launch and leadership of its B2B arm, Policybazaar for Business. His experience spans analytics, revenue management, strategic initiatives, and various insurance verticals within the company.
Key Insights from the Conversation:
👉Mission-Driven: Policy Bazaar was founded with a mission to protect middle-class India through transparent, accessible insurance, focusing initially on term life insurance.
👉Evolving Sales Model: Realizing insurance is a complex purchase, Policy Bazaar shifted from a purely digital model to an assisted one, incorporating call centers and advisors to build trust and aid understanding.
👉Product Focus: While starting with auto insurance, the focus evolved to high-importance protection products like health and term life insurance, educating the market along the way.
👉B2B Expansion: PolicyBazaar for Business targets the underserved SME/MSME sector, offering protection products like liability, cyber, and group health insurance, tailored to business needs.
👉Data-Led Product Innovation: Customer conversations and claims data are rigorously analyzed to improve user experience, develop relevant product propositions, and refine pricing with insurance partners.
👉Building for the Long Haul: Success stems from a long-term vision, customer obsession, focusing on product proposition, and consistently showing up over many years.
Chapters:
00:00:00 - Intro: Tarun Mathur's Origin Story
00:06:43 - The Genesis of Policy Bazaar
00:12:00 - Early Challenges & Securing Funding
00:15:37 - Selling Insurance Digitally: The Pivot to Assisted Sales
00:19:03 - Understanding Insurance Distribution Models (Agent vs Broker)
00:25:34 - Evolution of Product Mix: Auto, Health & Term Life
00:35:08 - Building Policy Bazaar for Business (B2B)
00:45:54 - The Cyber Insurance Opportunity & Product Innovation
00:55:48 - B2B vs B2C Customer Acquisition Strategy
01:00:45 - The Journey to IPO
01:04:14 - Entering the Reinsurance Market
01:23:28 - Policy Bazaar's Secret Sauce: Customer Obsession
01:35:42 - Advice for Young Founders
#FounderThesis #Insurtech #InsuranceIndia #StartupIndia #IndianStartups #Entrepreneurship #AkshayDatt #Fintech #DigitalInsurance #B2B #SME #MSME #TermInsurance #HealthInsurance #CyberInsurance #IPO #BusinessStrategy #CustomerObsession #ProductManagement #DataAnalytics #Leadership #StartupAdvice
Disclaimer: The views expressed are those of the speaker, not necessarily the channel.
Recommended
Transcript
Long-term Vision for Financial Success
00:00:00
Speaker
We are not here to make money in two years. we are here to make money over 20 years, 100 years. What we had also seen is death. We had seen hospitalization. We had seen what can happen to a family when the principal earner goes again. 2008 was the year when everything went bust. And at that time, we had almost packed up and decided that, you know, probably won't get funded.
00:00:23
Speaker
Insurance is not a product which you can just buy online and, you know, be okay with it. And there is a set of India which does it. And there is a huge part of India which cannot do it. Today, buying an insurance policy is almost as easy as buying a pizza. And I'm sure you've all seen the famous Kapil Sharma ads, which kind of bring home the point. In this very special episode of the Founder Thesis podcast, I'm speaking to Tarun Mathur, the co-founder of Policy
Introduction to Founder Thesis Podcast with Tarun Mathur
00:00:45
Speaker
Bazaar. And he spoke of the 17-year-long journey of Policy Bazaar, starting from very, very humble origins to today being a publicly listed company with a market capitalization of 70,000 crore rupees.
00:00:57
Speaker
This episode is all about understanding the DNA of building a company which truly is a legacy. I'm your host Akshay Dutt and this is the Founder Thesis Podcast.
Policy Bazaar's Origin and Mission
00:01:08
Speaker
So, Devon, welcome to the Founder Thesis Podcast.
00:01:18
Speaker
found thesis podcast So, you know, 2008 is when you set up Policy Bazaar, when there was no ah ecosystem of funding.
00:01:30
Speaker
um There was no... Like, there were no role models of tech startups as such. what What was... the The mindset when you were setting it up, were you thinking in terms of like, this is the price, that we have a lot of margin and we will get it from the price? Or were you thinking in terms of more Silicon Valley style that we will ah build tech, build a product, raise money, have a flywheel and at scale we will be profitable? well What was the mindset with which you were building
00:02:02
Speaker
There's no one single mindset, right? And I have to be honest in this one. Please remember, i was about 25 years old when we thought of it. um And your brain doesn't work such so strategically, right? Of course, dreams are there, you know, you're getting into startup and, you know, we'll do so big things, you know, in three years, we'll be millionaires, billionaires, whatever, you know.
00:02:23
Speaker
And you know how that always goes, right? So I didn't think so. I thought that I'd be a millionaire and, you know, I'd be on my yacht by this time. you know, as you see, I'm in front of a laptop. So that didn't really happen. But having said that, you know, the other part was we we had a mission.
00:02:36
Speaker
We had a mission. So, you know, on a very serious note, we thought that, you know, there is a huge part of India that we understand. Because we came from ah military backgrounds, right? Yesheesh and me, we were both from military backgrounds. that And, you know, we understood what actually middle class is.
00:02:52
Speaker
How much money do you have? How much money does it take to live? What's the How small are you and how big are you? And you in the army specifically, you see all of this. You stayed in the smallest of flats and you know when your dad was commanding, we had this big house.
00:03:08
Speaker
And then once he was out of command and he went into an instructor role, again, we came back
Exploring Term Life Insurance and Middle-Class Protection
00:03:13
Speaker
to the small house. So we'd seen mid-class. What we'd also seen is death.
00:03:19
Speaker
We had seen hospitalization. We had seen what can ah what can happen to a family when the principal earner goes away, right? And please remember, there's one product we keep talking about. i know it's a broken record, ah but term life insurance, right? Look at the product.
00:03:36
Speaker
What does it do? It doesn't do anything. It just gives you money when you're not there. Or it gives you a family money. But RPA is so true that, you know, if let's say I'm earning 10 lakh rupees in a year, and if I die, my family, even if I can have a one crore term plan, is it enough?
00:03:53
Speaker
It serves them for 10 years only. What after that? So if I die at 40, they can live a good life or ah the same lifestyle till they're 50. If they lower their lifestyle, maybe till and another 20 years.
00:04:05
Speaker
And then it'll go down to my son and my daughter to kind of take the burden and kind of work. So it... What one death can do is take a family from middle class and send you below the income.
00:04:16
Speaker
So it's ah it's a very harsh reality that nobody faced. So coming back to what else, we had a mission. We wanted to kind of do something for middle class India. We think that insurance in terms of protection is a big thing. We didn't really care about all the profitable products and all that. That was not our thing.
00:04:31
Speaker
We wanted to protect the middle class. And we said, this is our mission. This is what we want to do. And this is ah where we will make our bread and butter from. And I think that was there. And we kept evolving into that. So all the steps that we've taken, I think it's been very simple for us.
00:04:45
Speaker
From 2008 till now, we've just been thinking about how do you keep protecting this piece better? And, you know, you, theres of course, you know, theres ah there's a commercial angle to it. We've kind of, we sell some products. We, you know, try and market them better. We do ads.
00:04:59
Speaker
But the mission was always the same. So if you look at mindset, that was the mindset. And the third part about ourselves, I don't think we were really thinking. Because you're right, you know, at that time, ah you know, funding, etc, etc.
00:05:12
Speaker
While it was still happening, ah you know, startups weren't as cool. I don't think there were so many podcasts or so many guys, you know, doing this, the kind of show that you do on startups. Startups were exactly what my mom thought about the call center industry back in 2000 is what ah people thought about startups then, right? If you don't have a lot of money, people might be sitting there. Something like that.
00:05:35
Speaker
So, But that didn't bother us. We we we thought that we could do something.
Challenges and Evolution in Digital Insurance Sales
00:05:38
Speaker
We had the years behind us. We'd also run a very successful business. We'd also seen digital. We were ah marketing and technology guys at heart. And no insurance was a product that kind of resonated with us.
00:05:47
Speaker
So I guess it's the culmination of a lot of things which came together. Okay, interesting. I'd love for you to zoom into some of those early challenges of setting up Policy Bazaar.
00:05:59
Speaker
um For example, did you need funds to start off with? If yes, then how did you secure those funds? ah What was the go-to market? What were the challenges in selling digitally?
00:06:10
Speaker
ah Because, I mean, today everybody offers APIs, but I'm sure it was not like that. ah so So, you know, what what were those early challenges? if you can zoom into some of those. See, the the challenges are very common, right? Whichever startup you go to, ah it was basically, ah you know, you have paucity of money. Of course, you know, ah ah that the original founding team had put in something together.
00:06:32
Speaker
Some of us decided not to take salaries for for a long time. But I think we we also ran into a lot of good luck and a lot of good, a lot of blessings. 2008 was the year when everything went bust.
00:06:43
Speaker
And at that time, we had almost packed up and decided that, you know, we we probably won't get funded. But At that point in time, I remember InfoEdge came and said that, you know this is something that makes sense to us. And, you know and they've been ah very, very close allies for for the longest time. And, you know, our friends and and they've supported us.
00:07:00
Speaker
And they came in and they, um you know, funded us in that itself. So ah it wasn't a long time that we had to kind of spend without that. and but But, yeah, it you can say it was tough. But, such bullet to be honest, salary was less than the new ones came, but it didn't get different in the game.
00:07:15
Speaker
So, you know, so that's the best you don't have to romanticize it too much. It's it's exactly like that. But I think i think it it was okay. Beyond a point, it worked out.
Survival during the 2008 Financial Crisis
00:07:27
Speaker
ah How much did InfoHgib in that first round? the The angel Angel round is what it would be, right? see Yeah, so so it was the first one and and and that was about 20 worth.
00:07:40
Speaker
Okay. And so that was enough to like first year, first two years, whatever, help you get the technology and some basic marketing expenses, manage all of that. Oh, no, that was a lot.
00:07:51
Speaker
ah That was a lot. It was all that we needed. And we... pretty much went with that for the longest time we actually and thereafter we started earning our own monies so we we did we did we did kind of pick up other rounds uh but quite honestly that was a big check for them to sign in and i think we were very happy about it and we we still remain very grateful about it okay ah tell me about how you managed to sell insurance digitally that was the basic thesis right that you will sell insurance digitally
00:08:24
Speaker
Yes, ah it it was always about, you know, how can we, you know, get a lot of transactions. But yes, there is there there is a small story here, right? we we We thought that we'd be a completely digital company, which means that we'll have a website, we will have these products, they'll be listed and, you know, customers will come, they'll be able to compare and they'll they buy and, you know,
00:08:40
Speaker
and we the united it sticking yeah yeah had lo like But you see, insurance is very serious, very involved purchase. And it's a lot of jargons, lot of understanding. And, you know, to be clear, there is a lot of confusion in the terminologies, right? And it's not easy to understand. Even for somebody who's in insurance now for 17 years, there's a lot of stuff I still don't understand.
00:09:02
Speaker
Now, for a consumer to be able to understand complex products is asking too much of them. And realized that very early, right? when we When we set up our website, we had almost zero sales for first selling, what, 30, 40, 50 days.
00:09:17
Speaker
And then we said, why aren't customers buying from us, right? weve We've built this beautiful website. It's, you know, it's it's white and blue. It's got all set set things. And, you know, we've seen these customer journeys in our yesteryears and why would it not work?
00:09:29
Speaker
And then we, but you know, picked up a few guys and we why you know when to call up these customers and you understand what is it that they need? buy How can they buy better from us? Now, these guys weren't sales guys, but they became sales guys because they realized that there were only doubts that they had to clear.
00:09:41
Speaker
And, you know, if you assist them properly, so when we set up the assistance unit, and that remains a huge part of who we are even today. So there are these telecallers who are, you know, speaking to customers, they're convincing them. Now we also have ah some of our folks who go and visit customers in their homes, just you don't explain them the product.
00:09:59
Speaker
And that has been the evolution of our business. We realize that insurance is not a product which you can just buy online and you know be okay with it. And there is a set of India which does it and there is a huge part of India which that whichitch cannot do it.
Building Consumer Trust in Digital Insurance
00:10:11
Speaker
And I know that one will kind of intention the other, and but as that happens, we have to continue assisting our consumers. Also from a... Customer service point of view, it wasn't it was a bit jarring back in 2008 for you to buy a product, not having spoken to someone and but without somebody who you have, say, a caller to catch per se.
00:10:33
Speaker
And I think that faith building has been our journey for the last 17 years. It's about how do you get better products? How do you give better service? How are you there for the customer when they need it?
00:10:45
Speaker
um You know, can we stand with them? And I think if you look at our brand messaging, that's also changed. you know It started with compare and save. And now it's about ah if you need a claim, you be you will have somebody coming to you in 30 minutes.
00:10:57
Speaker
and so So it's all about that service which you want to kind of render. And that is where we want to keep supporting. ah that that That's how we kind of build it up. And insurance products, like and going back to your original question, insurance products, we so started listing them. We started working with the companies. And you know you also mentioned about APIs. We didn't have APIs. So we had some part integrations.
00:11:18
Speaker
We had a lot of innovation in terms of how we can get the information to the insurance companies. There were delays, there were problems. But I think over time, you know, the insurance companies are also very receptive and they also saw this opportunity, some more than the others.
00:11:29
Speaker
But, you know over time, everybody realized that, you know, digital is a very serious channel and it can can develop into something big. And, yeah, the rest is history. and just Understood. Understood.
00:11:40
Speaker
ah From a slightly more nuanced technical understanding, like you know this is a regulated space. ah And I think there are two ways in which you are allowed to sell in insurance, either as a broker or as an agent. and What is the difference?
00:11:55
Speaker
And am I right in this, what I've just told you? Is my understanding correct? or and Partly, let me elaborate. So there are, ah there are multiple types of licenses. Of course, the IRDA, you know, is the one who gives out licenses for individuals. They can become agents ah for some corporations, which have some other businesses, but also want to sell insurance. There's a corporate agency license, right? Banks used to be corporate agencies. Now they're becoming brokers.
00:12:18
Speaker
ah Then there was something called a bank. Fundamentally, you agent and broker, what is the difference? Yeah. I'll come to a difference. I'll come a difference, right? so I'll just go through the first the labels and then the distribution, right? So there's agent, there's corporate agent, and then there is a broker.
00:12:34
Speaker
And there's something also called a web aggregator, which we used to be about four years ago. A web aggregator was essentially a broker who was more online, right? But now we're also broker. What differences among them? See, an agent is a singular person right, who wants to sell insurance, he wants to directly work with and but multiple insurance companies, but not many. So they're allowed, i'm I'm sorry, I'm not very clear, but you know, a few, they're going to tie up with, let's say, two general insurance companies, two life insurance companies, and you know, a couple of health insurance companies.
00:13:02
Speaker
So they can sell for these. So they're, they will be able to sell for those companies. So they're agents of those companies selling to the customer. A broker is the opposite.
00:13:13
Speaker
I get a customer, ah represent the customer and I go to insurance companies but with the need and I then get products for them. So I am a representative of the customer as a broker.
00:13:23
Speaker
web manager absolutely the same. There is not much of it except for digital non-digital because we do digital and non-digital both. We are a broker. Then comes a corporate agency license. Again, these are entities. Both brokers and corporates are entities.
00:13:36
Speaker
So, corporate is an entity which wants to sell insurance apart from their larger set of things. ah And they'll be able to, again, sell for only about three to five companies. They have to only partner.
00:13:48
Speaker
In a broker, you can tie up with all 50. So, I think this is where the licensing in India sits today. What... ah you know How did you... Sell insurance, was it purely by setting up a call center and using the sales approach of oh you know outbound calls and SMSs? or ah Was there also other ways in which you thought about how to generate more sales?
00:14:14
Speaker
So actually, it was always about the inquiry.
Consumer-Driven Sales Strategy
00:14:17
Speaker
Like I said, you know, I think I mentioned once we were a product and ah we were a marketing and product company, marketing and technology company at heart, right? that That's who we were.
00:14:25
Speaker
And for us, what we wanted to do was we want to kind of go out there and reach out to customers and say, hey, this is a great product. Please come to us. Only when people came to us, either they would buy on their own or we would, ah you know, return their calls and say that, you know this is the product and these are features and buy from it. So our entire sales was focused on consumers who came to us.
00:14:44
Speaker
So whether it was through our brand. Conversion focus, basically. Like once a lead is generated. Absolutely conversion focus. Focus. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But most of it, a lot of it converted on their own, like in car insurance or in health insurance where the customer had to speak to someone. So they used to call us or we used to call them and we continue doing that. So the last part of it is inbound.
00:15:02
Speaker
ah There is a part that is outbound, but only if the consumer comes to us. So you will never find us cold calling. You will never find us kind of ah buying some database and know just calling out and saying, we'll never that.
00:15:14
Speaker
We only get customers. So we reach out and we'll say, okay, so if Akshay thinks that this is worth something that I have to kind of this is something i have to buy, then he will come to Policy Bazaar. Once he comes to Policy Bazaar is when we will call you back.
00:15:27
Speaker
Okay. So how do you generate inquiries then? ah Essentially then first step one is top of the funnel, generate inquiries. So, you know, what, What is the strategy there to generate inquiries?
00:15:39
Speaker
Like where does your marketing dollars go? but See, our marketing dollars are are are not so many now. ah we we Performance marketing is not such a large percentage of our business. ah You know, if you if you hear our earnings calls, etc. that that's It's almost the case that, you know, every year it's declining.
00:15:55
Speaker
Our direct traffic ah is is is what drives our business. So people coming onto the website on their own, typing, pulsing, bazaar, whether they're coming directly to Google, whatever. So our SEO and our ah direct traffic is the main engine that we have today.
00:16:08
Speaker
It was, of course, performance marketing when we started with it. But, you know, that as that brand got developed, as that word of mouth happened, as our TV ads kind of built that brand, it's now a lot of the direct traffic. When people come to the website, they choose the product.
00:16:19
Speaker
So, you know, typically you will find a multiple set of squares which say, you know, whether you want to buy car insurance, you want to buy, if you're an SME, do you want to buy ah fire insurance or shopkeeper insurance or or whatever?
00:16:30
Speaker
And you select that product, you give an inquiry and then, you know, you either buy or Or, you know, you you kind of say, okay, please call me or you you know you have a number there. You can you chat with us or we'll call you back, whichever way.
00:16:43
Speaker
so these are sort So basically the inquiry happens at the website. Somebody comes in, they fill up a small form, which is which gives us the need. And based on that need and based on your request, we will either call or not call you.
00:16:55
Speaker
Okay, okay. Understood. um ah let's Let's talk about the B2B business of Policy Bazaar, which is what you are personally leading.
Opportunities in the B2B Sector
00:17:04
Speaker
um What was the ah genesis of it? you know When did you decide that, okay, we need to go beyond B2C?
00:17:12
Speaker
and Tell me the journey of building up the B2B side of the business.
00:17:18
Speaker
See, for a long time, we didn't realize that, um you know, that the protection isn't just about health and protection is also about businesses, right? You remember you asked, you know, how ah was it like to kind of work without salaries or, you know, what?
00:17:31
Speaker
Now, an MSME and an SME are exactly in that space. There are 63 million of them, right? It's the same, same mathematics that was there in 2008. There are about 63 million of them.
00:17:42
Speaker
Uh, they're about 30% of our GDP, but only about 7, 10% of them are insured. And that too, uh, I would say only about maybe the top 5% or maybe some, some really, really aware people would be aptly protected.
00:17:56
Speaker
And what do you need to kind of guard against? See, when you set up a business, there's so many risks around that business, right? It's your bread and butter. It's what you're to for the rest of your life. It is your baby. It is, you know, all the lovely words we use for, for, up for what we do, right?
00:18:10
Speaker
What would we be like if a lawsuit came? What if some ah liability came? What if your employees fall sick? What if your employees die? What happens to my business, right?
00:18:23
Speaker
So for all these risks and perils that we learned about, the ultimate question that you can ask is what will happen to my business? Fill in the blanks. so many panels, right?
00:18:34
Speaker
So we realized that this was a huge opportunity and we had been ignoring this for the last last so many years. you know, we it wasn't apparent to us. To be honest, it's also about the drive that exists today around SMEs and MSMEs.
00:18:48
Speaker
So we wanted to kind of now create and extend what we'd made on the direct side, or on the retail side, on the SME and MSME side. And you know, there's so many judgments. When we started in 2008, our original brand people said, nobody's going to buy on online.
00:19:03
Speaker
and Insurance is very difficult. Nobody comes on your website. We got the same ah feedback again that, you know, MSMEs or contractors or shopkeepers or, you know, office in charges, they're never going to buy insurance from us. Or, you know, even the startup CEOs, they have too many things to do Why will they come on your website? i work What do you do?
00:19:23
Speaker
But here we are. See, we set up Pulse E-Bazaar for business about four years ago. ah You know, we again, do remember I mentioned that we were a web aggregator. We became a broker. So when we became a broker, we were also permitted to do commercial lines of products.
00:19:37
Speaker
And we've just carried on our message of protect protection. And that's what we're doing here. Today, the number of risks that are around MSME aren't there for an individual, right?
00:19:47
Speaker
So there's a risk of health. There's a risk of loss of job. There's a risk risk that your business might shut down of business interruption, of machine failure, of your, if you're into some sort of trading, and you know, if you're, if you're truck ah kind of meets with an accident, collision, ah your truck itself.
00:20:04
Speaker
So there are all these risks and we need to kind of cover for them. And that's become our new mission, right? As at least my mission now as I as ah as i lead Pulse E-Busar for Business. We want to make sure that all these MSMEs are well protected. They have the right set of products at the least possible pricing because we also understand the pain of what an organization has to go through. See, when you have only $10 to spend, ah how many of them can you spend on insurance? Not much.
00:20:29
Speaker
So can I design covers which are specifically for the SMEs, but they don't pay too much, but at least in the case of a large catastrophe, they're not kind of ah pulling in their pockets or going for investors or going to friends or bankrolls, and etc.
00:20:43
Speaker
So um that's our new scheme. That's what the evolution of policy bizarre for businesses. It's been only four years. so ah It's a very, very underserved market. ah There are very, very large brokers in India, very reputable brokers in India, but they'll try to look after the large corporates.
00:20:59
Speaker
So for us, our mission is to kind of see how can you get these smaller companies. and you know in know, in a way, we also have a soft corner for them, right? If you look at ah the startups of today, you can call them SMEs today, but I'm sure they'll be the giants tomorrow. And and if they are well protected, also, if you look at it, you know, when I look at these products, ah India has also becoming quite litigous.
00:21:20
Speaker
Right. So when a smaller company comes in, let's say a Zomato was to be set up today, the amount of people who say, oh, there was something in my food or, you know, or the restaurant saying something's gone wrong, you know, there's a tendency to, ah you know, sue either ways.
00:21:34
Speaker
And, ah you know, a smaller company can't take that, right? How much will you spend on corporate fees or lawyers fees, etc. So insurance takes care of those ah smaller corporates. And ah hopefully, I think more and more people as they hear about it, they'll understand this risk.
00:21:50
Speaker
uh you know we we we will see a lot expansion here also okay okay um so you said they are already existing brokers so these would be like say aeon uh and there must be a lot of domestic names so these would go to like say an infosys or any why those kind of companies would be catered to by these ah legacy players in the space for the smes there is no legacy player Yeah, nobody's got their prime objective as this.
00:22:20
Speaker
You see, and I must explain this one. Do we do large corporates? Yes. We do have a lot of large corporates who actually work with policy bizarre for business today, right? And I, and I sort of terrify that. So if they listen to this podcast, you know, they suddenly start thinking, okay, this guy doesn't even care about us, right?
00:22:34
Speaker
So see, we, we, we, we do the whole thing, right? We, we, we do ah large corporates. I think we do a tremendous job of it as do our competitors. But you see, the focus for them has been very large ticket sizes, right?
00:22:47
Speaker
Whereas where I come from, I'm saying that I want to kind of look after everybody. But my focus is how do I make sure that there is any MSNU that ever come to me is protected enough that they never have to lose their shirt.
00:23:01
Speaker
over anything, right? And ah that for me is a mission, right? But the risks that are there for an SME are also there for very large corporates. So it's, but for for for most of the brokers, the attention has been towards the large businesses. And that's, you know, i can't really justify it. This is historical thing, right?
00:23:21
Speaker
i ah you know I don't think the large companies would but ignore ah if it wasn't profitable. But yeah, MSME, it is difficult to make money. I must agree. Especially when you're not in the digital business. See, the digital business gives us a lot of access.
00:23:34
Speaker
um So a lot of our MSME and SME consumers are coming digitally, and which is why it becomes easier. But is the cost of acquisition less? No, it's not. It's about how I can ease the process of buying, how I can ease the process of claims, how well I can service. Can I do it digitally? Can i understand digitally?
00:23:51
Speaker
But I think it's not about us. i don't I think we're not the hero. I think the consumer is the hero because today there are contractors who are about to take on a contract to do some construction in in in ah a particular site and they need a a workman's compensation product, which is mandatory.
00:24:07
Speaker
for the next three months, I think it's quite easy to just log on to Pulsey Bazaar, you know enter 5-10 details and just buy a Pulsey instead of, you know, going to someone you know, talking to someone and then there's a back and forth and i need to print out, etc., etc.
00:24:22
Speaker
So I think whenever we can bring about ease, convenience, competition in terms of products, um it's it's ah it's a marketplace, right? But if the take isn't very high, if people don't buy this product, then, you know, even someone like us could fail.
00:24:35
Speaker
But I feel at least, know, we've crossed that hurdle in the last four years. I think today there are, uh, lacks of SMEs coming into us, uh, who are choosing to purchase some of their mandatory products, some of the non-mandatory products.
00:24:46
Speaker
Uh, and, you know, we will see this evolution over the next three, four years where, you know, protection products will come out. and like like, uh, a company's health insurance policy has eternally been done in a particular way where somebody will go to the company, talk to them, come back, take their proposal, go to five companies, get those rates, you know, back.
00:25:03
Speaker
But today, ah very happy to report that, you know, we've got a calculator. So if you came on and let's say you're running for your company, and let's say you have 70 employees, you come onto the website, you say, I've got 70 employees. I'm in this field. Can you give me group health insurance?
00:25:16
Speaker
Here you go. You've got 10 offers. And I think that, you know, ah we're also evolving in terms of, you know, what are we able to buy online? I remember back in 2010, I was very iffy about whether I want to, can I buy shoes online or not? What if they don't fit me? or other they hey I don't remember the last time I went into a shoe shop, right? So I've also evolved as a, as somebody who's buying.
00:25:36
Speaker
I buy a fridge, I buy a TV, I don't check, don't know what clarity is. So, you know, we're also evolving. And I think SMEs have also reached that, you know, they they've been buying this policy for a long time. They're like, yeah I'll buy it. no Just me the options.
00:25:48
Speaker
So, that is happening. And, ah you know, I think our competitors are, our Fee's Affairs competitors and they're very, very repetitive and they're doing great job. ah But I think we've've we've got a story. I think we've built a story around it and we've worked very hard on creating the proposition that somebody has.
00:26:04
Speaker
And hopefully that will pay over the long term. Okay. Interesting. um Would the bulk of SMEs be a buying health insurance? I'm guessing because most companies need to provide health insurance to their employees.
00:26:21
Speaker
Would that be the most popular product? Or what's the product mix like for this business? um No, it's actually 50-50. For the SMEs, I'd say it's 50-50. In fact, no, it'd be 60-40, you know, ah heavier on the side of non-health products.
00:26:38
Speaker
ah That's because, see, there are some products which are naturally you have to buy. See, ah let's be honest, when you set up a startup, you're not really thinking about health insurance. You're thinking about, but okay, I need to have a direct-to-sign office liability policy, right? I need to have a cyber policy. If you're setting up something in the consumer space, you don't have cyber...
00:26:55
Speaker
it is a 300% increase in the number of cyber clips is real. One is, I know we've got these big numbers, but it's a real number. Cyber policy, every company is buying today.
00:27:05
Speaker
So products like these will probably be the first protocol. Once you're a little ah ahead in your journey, let's say, your you know, you know, about 50 to 20 employees, and then you get to the hell side. In terms of premium, that is, ah that is of course, larger.
00:27:19
Speaker
But in terms of number of policies, it is always the first, the protection products, which are the basic set of products that somebody buys when you set up an organization.
Cybersecurity and Insurance Innovations
00:27:27
Speaker
And that kind of, of course, keeps changing and the risks keep changing as you evolve as a company in terms of your, ah you youre yeah what i'm sorry I'm saying same premiums because that's the insurance parlance, but you know in terms of revenues or your top line or a GMB as that goes.
00:27:41
Speaker
ah good Okay. Okay. Okay. Interesting. What is the cyber policy protect a business against? Like if you get hacked or something, if there's data leak. Yes. Yes. Yes. um See, ah so so I'll tell you, see, and you know, you didn't me a question, but I'll answer that question because really want to talk about cyber.
00:27:57
Speaker
ah You know, when we came in and we realized, you know, a lot of companies didn't understand cyber and this need wasn't really understood a year back. It's not, not very old story. So, you know, we said, how are you not seeing this risk, right?
00:28:08
Speaker
And so, you know, but we started doing something. We started going to the CTOs of companies and we said, you know, why don't you run this one report, right? It's a vulnerability report. It's a third-party report. We're not running it, right? Why don't you run it on your systems, okay?
00:28:21
Speaker
And you see, it'll give you a score from a to F, right? A being the best and F being the worst. And obviously, ah the way systems are and the way way we kind of think about things, ah most of them would end up in D, E, and F. And please remember, this report is not run internally.
00:28:38
Speaker
This report is run from my office to your office, which means whatever I can access from outside, a hacker can access from outside. And like, you know, if you're DNF, you, uh, without knowing it, send an invitation to someone who's like, you know, this guy is so easy. This is so much fun, right? Let me just get inside, get some data out and let me hold you ransom.
00:28:57
Speaker
And you know, this this whole ransomware is a big thing. Uh, and most of people don't want to handle it. And you know when we sell cyber policy, we sell it, you know, we, we had to, so we don't just sell cyber policy, right? That's one thing that policy without our business has done. We, we, we don't sell absolutely vanilla products.
00:29:13
Speaker
So what we do is, one, we run this report. Now we come back to you and say, actually, we'll get you insurance later. But at least can you you, know, we go with an IT consultant and we say, this is free of cost. Don't worry, you're not going to make you pay for it. Can you at least make these changes so that at least your product comes or earlier your system comes between a B and C so that nobody's hacking into your system, right? This is an open risk.
00:29:32
Speaker
And the CTO is, you know, they left aghast most times saying, yeah, this is a problem. Let me just rectify it. So they will kind of rectify their systems. It protects them better. And then I say, okay, now let me go and insure you because now I also know that you're a good risk.
00:29:46
Speaker
I'll go insure you'll get a good price for insurance and get you the product. Now comes the second part of cyber insurance, which is what do want happens at the time of claim. Now, this is very important and I will make judgmental. I remember I started this saying that I was a minus four. But you see, there are people who didn't get a minus four and who did go into engineering. And you have all the stuff that happens in engineering. Now, you must understand the CTOs of most organizations that have come from engineering colleges. And, you know, while they're great at technology and they've done fantastic stuff with systems and evolution, etc.,
00:30:17
Speaker
But they aren't the most, ah you know, how do I say it? They're not very eloquent most times. And when there is a bad actor talking to you and he's trying to negotiate with you saying, listen, give me a million dollars. is a I'm going to suck up your data and I'm going post it on the dark web.
00:30:33
Speaker
He doesn't know what to do. And he shouldn't know what to do. To be quite fair to them, ah he is not that's not part of his role, right? He's supposed to kind of look at systems. He's supposed to get the hacker out, not really do it.
00:30:45
Speaker
So we have a set of lawyers and we have set of IT consultants, both sitting there, understand the problem. we say, listen, you don't have to anything. If something happens, we'll handle the claim for you. So we will be the, ah you know, your... your In the army, we call it QRT or Quick Reaction Team.
00:31:00
Speaker
We will come on board and we will kind of tackle these militants few. We come board. talk to the bad actors. we made meet we First, we make sure your data is protected. And then we talk about the monies, right? You know, giving the money is one thing, but not getting your data back is a bigger thing.
00:31:15
Speaker
So we assist the customer from every part, right? Right from protecting networks in the first place, right down to what happens if the eventuality of a claim or a hack does happen.
00:31:26
Speaker
I think that is where policy business is set up for. That is what we're doing to products. And that is what will set us apart from our largest competitors. um And I guess that's, at least that's, ah that's, that's our working theory. It's been, it's been working wonders for the last four years.
00:31:41
Speaker
ah But, you know, we'll have to also keep ah innovating to kind of be, you know, be in the race. Interesting. it So it seems to me like you are trying to, uh,
00:31:53
Speaker
target the more tech-first kind of businesses and creating custom products that would especially work for them. That would be a market which the legacy players would not be catering to as well as you could because you yourself are a tech-first business.
00:32:10
Speaker
Wow. Can you just can you just write that down and send it to me? I'll actually put that on our brochure. I hadn't realized it till you said it. That's why they were the positive.
00:32:23
Speaker
The fact that you're going to look for your policy digitally, ah chances are you're going to end up being a tech first product. So that that filtration already happens. But, uh, we, uh, you know it's, it's not entirely accurate.
00:32:35
Speaker
Like I'll give you the other product that we sell a lot of. We sell a lot of, uh, professional indemnities, especially for doctors. Right. Um, this may a kapni gaatwi la guya of coosinees su carto you know then then there's a process and how do you protect it?
00:32:48
Speaker
But again, um it's not just that. That's just the plain vanilla part of it, right? How do you kind of, again, make sure that the doctor is really protected? one is about, ah okay, litigation happens. Okay, you know, there's money required.
00:33:00
Speaker
you aka venla product yeah But we give them the comfort saying, okay, if you're a doctor, you have to focus only on kind of building up your clinic and looking at your patients and doing the best job there.
00:33:12
Speaker
Everything else should be my headache, right? So again, we've done the same thing. We said, okay, you buy this product. If something happens, we will again be your QRT, right? You'll come to us.
00:33:22
Speaker
We will handle everything. We will make sure that you have the best lawyer in place. You have all the payment is going to him directly. There is no outflow of cash from your pockets. You're not worried about it. It's getting handled. It teaches an eventuality. And then, you know, we babies we settle that, right? Because the money is going to come from the insurance company.
00:33:39
Speaker
So, when you buy, now a doctor can buy from me and they can buy from my competitors. But where will they actually be, ah ah you know, at at rest and you know, um it's called just sukcuna and geas here somebody else is handling the whole problem. So, I'm handling the problem. I'm not just handling the product.
00:33:58
Speaker
sort So, of you know, and and so our our consumers, if if I want to now try and caption that, is anybody who's looking for protection for their businesses and wants end-to-end protection.
00:34:12
Speaker
be Now, you have to be a bit tech savvy because I am quite honestly a digital company and you you have to come to me first for me to be able to kind of address it. of but only as much as the next guy.
00:34:23
Speaker
So if you have a mobile mobile phone in your hand, you're my customer. Period. No matter what business you're into. So now you call it a tech first business or you want to call it a tech first founder. I'll leave that to you. Okay. Okay. Interesting.
00:34:35
Speaker
ah Is it... Profitable for you to run this QRT team, the quick response team, but that would mean like a certain amount of fixed costs which you have to bear, or do you look at that as ah marketing expense that you this will help you get more customers eventually?
00:34:54
Speaker
Yeah, see, i can't I can't find a flaw in my argument, right? if if if And it's not like the product is more expensive. So if you get the same product, but you're getting the whole service for it, I can't see a reason why you would want to go anywhere else and buy it.
00:35:08
Speaker
Is it profitable? Of course. See, as as ah as a ah as a business or as a thesis that we have whatever you want to call it, right? Our stuck-upness, we will never do something that's not contribution positive, right?
00:35:22
Speaker
So whatever we designed has to make sense. But honestly, instead of spending the margins on big cars, we are spending our margins on creating this ecosystem, right?
00:35:33
Speaker
It's a cost. But ah we are not here to make money in two years. we are here to make money over 20 years, right? 100 years. i don't know what it is. And ah for that, for me, it's it's ah it's just the base reality, right? I don't want to run this money for the city. I want to kind of look at these customers year on year. And, you know, these consumers are my repeat buyers. Who knows that today in MSCVs that I'm protecting today are the large corporates of tomorrow.
00:36:01
Speaker
um where the size of the corporate also goes up, the premiums goes up and hence, you know, my spread goes up. So, if you look at it from a very, very you know profit lens, if you start looking at it from day one, it's not going to make money.
00:36:16
Speaker
But you've got to be able to understand that, you know, as long as the unit economics is fine, eventually you will make money. So, we look at eventuality, we're not in a hurry. ah Just so. This will help you reduce turn rate, retentions will be higher, word of mouth will be higher.
00:36:33
Speaker
ah Broadly, i see if the customer is not looked after, we're in a high complaint category. Please, you know, I think one thing that we should all say, we're in a high complaint category. So the customer who's unhappy, ah he's got lots and lots of tall buildings to shout out from, right? There's LinkedIn, there's WhatsApp, there is Reddit, etc, etc, etc, right? Yeah.
00:36:52
Speaker
But a happy customer um ah who speaks is heard a lot more. So I have so many people today and I'm very, very happy and ah grateful who are actually going out now on LinkedIn and saying, i got a ah had a great experience.
00:37:08
Speaker
Go with Palsy Balarondi. They're the only guys who work. So, you know, those messages are far more important. And look at, actually, if you genuinely, if you're buying something, you're not going believe me, right? I'm the seller. and But imagine if you go to Google and you find 10 recommendations to buy from Policy Bazaar, then you'll buy from Policy Bazaar. And I think that's what we're trying to do. Policy Bazaar for business is only set up to kind of create a brand which has the best propositions available, not the best.
00:37:32
Speaker
You know, the products can be the same. Okay, okay, okay. ah What is the difference between how PolicyWizard does the B2C customer acquisition and the B2B
B2B vs. B2C Acquisition Strategies
00:37:43
Speaker
customer acquisition? So for B2C, you told me first there was high performance marketing spend, then there was brand spend like TV ads, etc.
00:37:50
Speaker
ah So today the brand is strong enough that there is lot of inbound organic ah traffic. um What has been the B2B customer acquisition journey and what do you think it will be going forward?
00:38:04
Speaker
You can't teach old dogs new tricks. We do that. Like there is, there is absolutely no difference. Even the guys who are doing it are exactly the same. We are still doing performance marketing. We don't do TV marketing right now for, uh, for business.
00:38:21
Speaker
Uh, we do do some offline stuff, right? know, going into conferences, trying to see where MSC means will sit. They do it. But again, we will we don't reach out to them for sales. We just do a lot of performance marketing. We do a lot of a SEO. We have a lot of direct traffic, which again comes to us, that word of mouth. And it's increasing year on year on year to year.
00:38:39
Speaker
It seemed impossible in the first year. It seems very good in the fourth year. And hopefully, you know, we'll have a even bigger year next year. ah But the the model is exactly the same. There are customers who come to us.
00:38:50
Speaker
ah They give the expression of a particular set of products. ah You know, ah whatever product they choose, we will again ah reach out to them or they'll reach out to us. ah And we will try and, you know, put the right product forward.
00:39:03
Speaker
ah It's exactly the same. There's absolutely no difference in the models. It's just the product and the customer is a little different. And the customer's intent is to buy for his company rather than for... ah himself or herself and yeah ah tell me about the journey to an IPO like like you know what was ah what what was the trigger to decide okay let's do an IPO any learnings from that whole process has life changed after IPO No, let me answer that
IPO Journey and Impact
00:39:31
Speaker
part first.
00:39:31
Speaker
No, we're still the same driven organization. We're still coming to office every day. ah we ah we We still think that we yeah it's it it it it is a milestone. I don't want to kind of take that away from the IPO, but it's just that. It's just another milestone, right?
00:39:46
Speaker
ah Where we want to be is ah is is much further from here. I think i think ah it's you know God has been very kind to us and I think we'll be doing as kindness disservice if we don't carry on what we can do.
00:40:00
Speaker
ah But the journey to IPO, see, we, how do I put it ah ah very, very crisply? um We were a set of guys who were on a mission. We've just continued that mission. We've just come to work every day. We we are now friends. We're like, I don't have too many friends outside of where I work because we spent a lot of hours in office and I'm not telling that to impress my boss. You know we generally had to kind of do it. And and ah While we were doing this, you know, success did hit. We did get a lot of consumers. We did work on products. We did do the right things. We they made a lot of mistakes. We learned from them. We kind of grew up.
00:40:39
Speaker
And as we kept doing that, our numbers kept developing. We we realized that, you know, we had we had we had become quite a decent size. And at that point in time, I think IPO was the natural progression. And, you know, it was the right time. It was, we got a lot of advice from a lot of our mentors.
00:40:53
Speaker
And we went ahead. And an IPO happened. It was a big moment because it suddenly kind of propelled our brand brand into a new sphere. and But wherever we are in terms of our journey, we you know that was just i think that was a very big endorsement of who we are, I think more than anything else.
00:41:09
Speaker
And with that endorsement, you you carry on. And here you go for the next milestone and the next one. See, because the idea is to build a business which lasts 100 years. You look at all the lovely businesses that that our country has created, right?
00:41:21
Speaker
ah You know, we are fans of such a business, right? Look at ah how LIC is. at how big it is till today. But it was built over a long time. And I think... good, great organizations have to have a very, very long-term vision, which is what we have.
00:41:34
Speaker
Like somebody asked me, ah why do you want to do this Palsy Bazaar for business? You're already so big, right? And I couldn't tell you the number, but you know, we're a significant part of Palsy Bazaar's business today.
00:41:46
Speaker
And that's because, you know, we thought, why not? Why will we not build a business? But we've learned so much when we are consumer facing, when, you know, consumers have ah put faith in us, why will not carry that faith into they their daily lives, right?
00:41:59
Speaker
We have, till now, we protected what will happen, let's say, three or four days in their lives. Now I have to protect what they do for 250 days their lives, right? So,
00:42:09
Speaker
I think that these transitions will keep happening if you find another opportunity. Like we started reinsurance last year. Why would do we do that? We do that because now we can service our clients even better. ah And for us, insurance is the largest thing that we do. And we will continue investing behind it and need continue kind of doing it. This is our passion now. This is who we are.
Reinsurance and Innovative Insurance Products
00:42:28
Speaker
I said we are a marketing and technology company. We started but now we are a marketing technology and insurance company.
00:42:32
Speaker
ah in short so broken company so uh it's just a natural progression and i think the ipo was just an announcement and we will carry on okay okay fascinating uh reinsurance is uh when insurance companies sell their risk to uh like a reinsurer uh so what is the role you are playing in that See, what we have to do is we have to get the best solutions from the large reinsurers and be able to present them to insurance companies who in turn will create products out of them, which comes here.
00:43:04
Speaker
So um our role is to find the best solution for our insurance company partners and, you know, kind try and get them capacity from the reinsurance markets.
00:43:14
Speaker
For me, i mean that that's a traditional part of it. But the part that I'm most excited about is there a lot of ideas that exist outside our country today, which are doing very well in those markets. Which the reinsurers are backing in somewhere else. Can I get that solution from that reinsurer and then work with an insurance company here and develop products which would be ah great for our consumers, right?
00:43:34
Speaker
Whether it is um like, you know, there is ah there's a lot of talk around know different like like crop insurance or there is fire insurance or marine insurance. And there are different ways to do it. Now, imagine if I could ah create a product where, ah you know, if if if ah if if in theory something happens, we just pay you.
00:43:53
Speaker
We don't look for what damages. We just can't tell you right? And ah ah these products would be like, let me give you an example. If you're traveling outside the country and ah you ah have a travel insurance, right?
00:44:07
Speaker
And this has a flight delay feature, right? If the flight gets delayed, you don't have to file for a claim. I will kind of already read that. I will ah say, okay, the flight is delayed and you're sitting at the airport and you've got a message saying, you know, a thousand dollars are in your account already.
00:44:23
Speaker
I think that is a wow experience. I think that's what we want to create in terms of products. And there are these products outside. I just want to make sure that all those products are available in India here. And, you know, and and and hopefully make, we only started last year. So maybe all these thoughts are only dreams.
00:44:39
Speaker
But I think if you can't dream, you can't really do so. but But that's the thought process behind why we want to get into reinsurance. We just want to get better and better products and better and better propositions out there. Okay, interesting. So what I understand is that ah what an insurance company is selling ah even though it is a manufacturer, but it is just one piece in the supply chain. It also needs a supplier behind it.
00:45:05
Speaker
ah Yes and no. Yes and no. c See, see, let me explain. There are again two sides to it. There are catastrophic events that happen. For those catastrophes, we can't always ah be able to give the best pricing. Now, what do I mean by that? See, risk is ah it's it's it's a very, very large thing, right? And it has to be spread.
00:45:26
Speaker
If let's say, let let's let's let's say if you're betting on something, right? If you are betting on India may, kini sulay in and you had bet 100 rupees, right? he You know, okay, the next 10 years, there will be a tsunami in India.
00:45:40
Speaker
You might lose because there may not be tsunami in India in next 10 years. But if you had the ability and say, okay, in the world, there'll be at least one tsunami. Chances are you will get the money, right?
00:45:53
Speaker
which is what a risk spreading is, right? So a reinsurer is able to insure for India. It is insured for Africa. It is able to insure for Europe and then kind of exclude this. So if a loss happens in one place, exactly how insurance works, it is kind of getting compensation from somewhere else.
00:46:09
Speaker
So they are always solvent. An insurance company sitting in India, if one large flood comes in, they run the risk of all the insurance companies in India together having to pay such catastrophic losses.
00:46:21
Speaker
That is what is reinsured. That part, which is a very, very large feature for a very small price, is what is going to reinsure. So if a large catastrophe happens, it's taken care by the reinsurer.
00:46:33
Speaker
So that's the typical explanation of why it exists. And why it's important. It's not like the insurance, but the way I, the reason to kind of explain it so thoroughly is because ah you almost didn't feel that they're passing the path. That's not the real thing, right? It's it's just about, okay no there were a lot of people who didn't get minus four and they decided that, you know it would probably be better to kind of spread that risk and, you know, and that could kind of work throughout. Yeah.
00:46:56
Speaker
the plethora of products and catastrophes and risks. Basically, like the Black Swan events are what the insurers are used for. Yes. Yes. and But you see, but but in the same lens, I said that for innovative products, like, see, that that's the main one thing, right?
00:47:10
Speaker
Like the parametric product I told you about, right? These are ideas which have worked very well outside. Now, what is the difference? The difference is that ah There's a high frequency in the number of claims or the calamity happening, e etc. And there's a lot of calculation that goes behind it.
00:47:22
Speaker
So parametric products have been used in India for crop. They're not being used so much for the other product. Now, I don't even know if it's ah iss going to be a success or not. But I feel that it's the kind of product which is very consumer-centric.
00:47:34
Speaker
Where it's not about what are the laws. Okay, I reported this. My car broke my house. I a pill. I got a painting. too of kioi The price came, you got money.
00:47:46
Speaker
I think from a ah trust perspective, it is a very, very good product because the largest complaint I hear, ah you know, when we go out and talk is that, I don't know if I'll get my claim.
00:47:57
Speaker
What if there is some fine print there which says that, you know, it's really your head. but if you don't have a shirt, we will not give this claim. that's That's a fear.
00:48:08
Speaker
thats That's a fear. But if I tell him, look, earthquake is here, and it is above so much above the Richter scale, you will come back to your money. If your house is intact or broke, you will not give it to your house.
00:48:19
Speaker
So imagine, right? Imagine the guy is actually dreaming saying that you will come to earthquake. I'm telling you, lot of people will think like that. And that's the truth. Yes, that is the product. But think it takes away lot of, but for the real users of the product, it takes away a lot of anxiety.
00:48:37
Speaker
Yeah, the anxiety of claim is not there. They just have to make sure that the government publishes that this was above six at the Richter scale and I'm going to get my money. I think those are the kind of products that are important for India.
00:48:48
Speaker
ah But only time will tell but how successful they are. So for such innovative products, an Indian insurance company may not have the appetite without a reinsurer backing it up.
00:49:00
Speaker
ah And which is why you need reinsurers. and Okay. ah this for something It's not about the appetite. It's about the data. but It's about the data. It's not about the appetite. See, the insurance company, any insurance for large risk is going there. and Like I said, this is an earthquake risk. So it's not just one house is going to get damaged. There's to be a thousand houses they'll have design it for.
00:49:19
Speaker
And see, that the premium to some insured is so different. Like, you know, a home insurance policy, which covers, let's say, a one-crore house, is only for 5,000 or 7,000 rupees, right?
00:49:30
Speaker
right So now, if a large damage or large earthquake happens, and let's say this whole colony is bought, and there are, let's say, 400, then you're paying out 400 crores at
00:49:42
Speaker
ah you know, the whatever, some 2.8 lakhs or 28,000, whatever it is, right? The the the small amount of premium that you're paying for it, right? So, ah this catastrophe is what the reinsurer covers.
00:49:53
Speaker
The reinsurer actually going to come with data and say that the right pricing for this product is x And the reason I say that is because I've seen this in Peru, I've seen this in Romania, or I've seen this somewhere. So is the right pricing of the product.
00:50:05
Speaker
And don't worry about it. If the eventual does happen, you know, you want to give me some part of the premiums and I will make sure that I am protecting you at the back in the large catastrophe. The reason is data. ah Reinsurance is a data-driven program. It is very less to do with profits and ability and potential.
00:50:23
Speaker
and Okay, interesting. Very interesting. ah date Insurance is essentially like a lot about data, right? like like This whole industry is essentially um spreading risk by using data.
00:50:41
Speaker
yes Yes, it's only about data, in fact. um and And, you know, when you look at risk, you know, but what we have to understand is, you know, how does the data actually work? What is going to be the loss ratios? What is going to be, ah but what are the chances of claim? When we look at any ah particular product and the lens of insurance company, they have to look at two things.
00:51:00
Speaker
One is what is the frequency of a particular thing? What is the frequency of a particular thing, right? What and what is the severity of that particular claim? Now, ah when i and I talk about those large risks, like I said, earthquakes, they are very small frequency, which means they won't happen very often, but very large severity.
00:51:17
Speaker
And the premiums charge such. If you look at motor insurance, it's a very high frequency, but a low severity claim, right? So, um you know, when you look at the data is when you're able to come up with what is the right pricing for a particular set of products. And has to be right pricing. See, it can't be loss-making, but it can't be too profit-making.
00:51:34
Speaker
Otherwise, consumers will not buy it. So today, in like I've, I see this all the time. We are very lucky because in our country, the car insurance prices are the lowest that I have seen.
00:51:45
Speaker
And I think they're exactly right price. There's not very large margins. There is not a loss being proposition, but it is exactly where it needs to be. It could get better, but you know, but from So it is only data that actually tells you and you know, a lot of that data doesn't. ah So car insurance will be done forever. Health insurance done forever. Life insurance, we have our own tables because you know, I sleep in for a long time.
00:52:06
Speaker
So we have data, but for something like earthquake, et cetera, while we know our, our country, we don't know what are the other risks that happen. We don't know what will happen if there's a 40-story building, what will happen to that.
00:52:19
Speaker
So, all that data has to come from somewhere. And these are large repositories of data which exist with the reinsurers who have been there for the last 200 years, you know, across continents. That is, I think, they have that role to play here.
00:52:31
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay. ah You've been heading a strategic initiatives for PolicyWizard for, I think, about eight odd years now.
Strategic Initiatives and Teleconsultation Services
00:52:39
Speaker
what What all are some of those strategic initiatives?
00:52:44
Speaker
But there are many, some small, some big. And the policy seems staff for business at one point in time was it just strategic initiative, right? But now it's a business. ah And ah personally, you know, I've been involved in a lot of those, right? You know, we started off, I think the one I can talk about is on car insurance. We started directing comess customers to um our workshops, right? Because we realized that ah lot of workshops weren't doing a great job. So we know we started an initiative where we looked after customers and why don't you go to this place? You know, it'll be easier for you.
00:53:12
Speaker
um Then on the health insurance side, some of the initiatives we've taken is around sending people to ah help you in 30 minutes. i think that's a huge hit. It's a hit because it's certainly what customers need. The guy can't, sure, but he can at least fill up the forms, get the hospital to kind of do all the documentation, run around and get the claim, etc.
00:53:29
Speaker
So that is other a few things. in but But the most interesting one is the one I already talked about is is how we've built propositions in Pulse Eves Alpha business because this was a new um there's a new place for us.
00:53:40
Speaker
And for once, this was a time when there are a lot of large brokers who already, like I said, large, reputed brokers who do a great job at servicing. And I'm putting that out there. So it's not like they're large brokers and they don't do they don't do a great job, right? They do a great job.
00:53:54
Speaker
So we had to build out propositions. Now, whether it's the one that I spoke about cyber, whether it's the one that we talk about on the doctor's PI bit, or my favorite example, which, you know, thank about thank you all so much for asking that question. I could not talk about is is what we do on the group health insurance side, right?
00:54:12
Speaker
So whether it's large corporates or it's SMEs or MSMEs, today what we've done is we've got a proposition whereby in an app, we're able to kind of give you access to, of course, you know, it it is it it's it comes from the consumers, of you know, their demands, but you have access to doctors or a teleconsult, you have a wellness,
00:54:32
Speaker
You have diagnostics, you have a pharmacy, you have, ah you know, ah disease reversal programs, right? Disease management programs. And I think we give this ah to all the employees who are covered by their companies through us.
00:54:48
Speaker
ah Why do we do that? We do that because genuinely when, you know, what has happened over the years is that for an employee, health insurance has become entitlement. I should work in your company, should have health insurance.
00:55:00
Speaker
Not realizing that the company is doing so much and paying out of their pockets you're want to kind of protect you. Which in my view, you should be doing yourself, but okay, you know, the company takes care of you. Now, but that's become entitlement. So now what happens is the employees, um they don't really value what they've got.
00:55:17
Speaker
But when they get this app, when they're able to kind of solve for their ah medical needs through an app, and give you a use case, right? This is my favorite use case to quote. ah if if if my if If my son is unwell at 11 night, i what do I do? I end up going to the ER.
00:55:37
Speaker
When they go to the ER, they say that we have to observe 24 hours. Which child seems 24 hours? Only those children take the insurance plan. like yeah The other kids are fine in 3 days.
00:55:49
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So, otherwise, it was fine in 3 days. Here's the difference. Now, you call up this doctor. And, you know we've got experienced doctors in the app, right? They're not like newbies, etc.
00:56:02
Speaker
yeah yeah He will tell you the same thing. He'll say, okay, why don't you take this medicine? You have that medicine. And... 90% or 95% of the times, you will find the kid to be absolutely fine.
00:56:14
Speaker
Right? They're old-old-old. They're asleep now. They don't need go to the hospital. They don't need to go to the ER. They don't need to hear anything. I think it's a... it's To me, it's quite jarring going to an ER at night. Right? um And I think...
00:56:27
Speaker
For a kid, it must be even more. So you look at these use cases. Today, we started to do that. Now, I feel this is innovation because now you're genuinely looking after the employee and their families. You are genuinely looking after what is their need at a particular hour.
00:56:41
Speaker
ah You know, you're able to buy ah medicines on discount. You're able to kind of, um you know, go after wellness programs. Disease reversal is just talked about, but we're actually doing it.
00:56:52
Speaker
Today, if you have diabetes, you join a program. They'll give you a diet plan. They'll they'll monitor you. They'll tell you what to do. And I have seen so many people now reverse it. It's such a common thing. i don't know why anybody would remain diabetic when you could kind of solve for it. And it's all on an app. So if you just followed the stuff on the app, you'd be just there.
00:57:10
Speaker
I think this has a lot of value. And every corporate we've given it to you does not want to leave this app. See, the insurance is common. The insurance is the same product. ah Sometimes better, sometimes worse, sometimes structuring, sometimes mathematics, sometimes analytics. But...
00:57:25
Speaker
It's just it. But when you talk about wellness of employees, when you talk about talk about their care, when you talk about how they can benefit from it, how can they can actually, for me, from a for a lazy guy like me, I don't have to start the car, go to a doctor and show myself, right? I can do it online.
00:57:39
Speaker
and I'm saying try it once. You may believe that this is just gas. But if you actually tried speaking to a doctor, you'll actually feel, yeah, this is just natural. This is absolutely fine. Because what's doctor doing there?
00:57:50
Speaker
That time went on. No one doesn't check your nose. You're able to do that yourself. You have a thermometer at home. You say, I'm so tired. What do you do? yeah It's been happening for so long. In fact, it was happening even in our parents' time.
00:58:02
Speaker
Only in very, very worse times, they had to to doctor. Otherwise, you were calling mom upon those very children's phones and you were saying, keith sir, this is what I did. What do I do? He said, go and take this drug and eat it. When you were worse off, then you had to go there.
00:58:15
Speaker
But that's all we're doing. We're doing nap. Maybe it's not so personal as a family doctor, but you know, you can't treat over everything. But over time, I think this is going to evolve. I think we don't need to go to the doctor for everything. We don't need to go to hospital for everything.
00:58:29
Speaker
And this evolution we brought about in our product, it's been copied, of course, which which happens everywhere. But I'm i'm hoping, i mean, in my view, we're still the best. um Not to kind of blow my own trumpet.
00:58:42
Speaker
And we're kind of propeling that in organizations. And now we're using it as an app that actually drives a lot of things. So we drive the user of this app. Everybody else says, for us, it's about how do you get more and more employees to download this app, use it, use it for everything.
00:58:58
Speaker
Use it for claims. You got a claim, just put it in there it's filed. It's done. No paperwork. You know, you want to um of call a doctor, you want to check, you want to see what your pre-hospitalization, post-hospitalization, you want your cards, it's right there on the app.
00:59:11
Speaker
See, if for everything, we've been able to download app. So why not for your insurance? So for us, this this is a massive change over what was typically happening and where we are, and which is what has brought about our success for last four years.
00:59:24
Speaker
And these are the strategic initiatives want to continue kind of innovating on. Okay. Okay. Interesting. um You know, you said you are a tech and marketing company. i think more than that, you're a tech and product company. Like for each of these, you've created products. Like you had the QRT for yeah a certain category, which was a product you created. Now you have this product for the health insurance. yeah This is free for everybody who's buying health insurance, like the the group health insurance?
00:59:55
Speaker
but For the organizations who buy from us? Yes. Okay. Again, the cost of the product. In insurance, we don't use the word free. it doesn't it's and There is no cost difference and it's embedded into the product.
01:00:09
Speaker
And for you, again, the way to look at it is it's a way to build word of mouth, reduce churn, increase engagement, retention, etc. ah You know, you you you always kind of want me to quantify it. But to me, it's about where does one see value in the purchase they've done?
01:00:28
Speaker
Now, whether it is through... Of course, everything is done for retention. I want my consumers to stay with me for the longest time. I think... So if you want to use one word of retention there, ah you know, we'll use that word.
01:00:41
Speaker
But the idea is... commercially also, it'll only make sense if you're there with me for years. And yeah it's a no-brainer. But from a liking perspective, I want you to be there for years. Right.
01:00:52
Speaker
And it's also about cross-sell. So if you want to really come on commercial aspect, if you brought in group health insurance from me, and if I've done a good job, I don't think Akshay is a heartless guy will not give me the other insurances, right? He will say, okay, I want my kind insurance also be from you.
01:01:07
Speaker
I run a company, you've done my group health insurance policy. I also want my liability policies with you because, you know, you're also taking care of my CTO at that point in time when the claim happens, right? So on and so forth. So I think this is not about ah just one product or or the reason is not very, very clear only about retention or about commerce or about, ah ah you know, one or two factors.
01:01:28
Speaker
It's about how can i ah take Akshay's business? How can kind of look after him for the longest time? And then i know that I'll make money A, because he is paying for so many years.
01:01:40
Speaker
He will kind of take another product from me, a third product from me because in the life... ah span of a particular company, you have to buy these insurances at some stage. I just want to be the guy you choose to buy from.
Customer-Centric Success and Product Development
01:01:53
Speaker
Okay. oh What is it about Policy Bazaar's DNA that makes you the winner in the insurance aggregator space? There are lot of competitors who started along with you, ah but you are the biggest in the market.
01:02:09
Speaker
What is the secret sauce? Why are you the biggest? Why are you the one who got a public listing? you know What are some of those pillars which you think are responsible for this success?
01:02:22
Speaker
Our obsession, our obsession with ah giving our customers the best proposition, I think is a secret sauce. It's not a secret, but it's our sauce.
01:02:34
Speaker
So whichever product we've spoken about today, I think I've been able to give you example of how we've done a little differently, not very differently, but just about how can we get the best sort of,
01:02:46
Speaker
ah ah ah and not just a marketing story, a real story, where I'm able to kind of get the consumer and say, yeah, this should happen. So I think that's what we've done. We've only designed products. I think everything else happened.
01:03:00
Speaker
ah Like I said, word of mouth happened. ah Marketing happened. ah you know Everything was what was was was was a bit of a collateral. ah But what we really did, what we really worked hard on is, is still can we get the product right?
01:03:11
Speaker
Can we get the proposition right? Can I great talk to Akshay and make sure that either we will buy it or not we will buy it. You know what i'm saying? You know, when you go, it's like when you want to buy a car and you know, you know you you went to buy, ah you shouldn't name car, but you know, any car, right? Let's say, let's say a mid-size car.
01:03:27
Speaker
But you have seen Ferrari. Now I can bet you and have seen Ferrari, right? So you can't buy car again. but up wape zaque ah pregadi comes to come a with anlepo yeah Because now you've experienced a Ferrari, right? you you You really had a great experience.
01:03:40
Speaker
Now I'm going to and play my party, you know, you will not so nice. So I want to at least have that design, ah you know, down pat. I want that ah to be our story. I want everybody believe that, you know, if I have to get the best proposition, it has to be from Balci Bazaar.
01:03:59
Speaker
And now that I've heard their proposition, I'm only theirs. How do you build an organization around this obsession? Like you must be thousands of people in terms of headcount.
01:04:11
Speaker
How do you scale up the culture, the DNA ah beyond just the founders? See, a big part of who's going to listen to me ah speaking like this is going to think I'm completely nuts.
01:04:25
Speaker
Right. And I'm telling you that happens. So when we hire, ah it's not so much about interviewing them. It's about them interviewing me. And when I speak, like and I put this obsession forward. yeah to join kar an aing yeah So I think one naturally is slept with that.
01:04:40
Speaker
He's my crazy. So, you know, we'll be kind of wrong with everybody. And I guess it's not a top-down approach, etc. right it's it it It is in everybody's DNA here.
01:04:52
Speaker
But ah you know yeah birds of a feather flock together. It's it's it's always going to be like that. right You will find the same obsession. Now, if every day I'm talking about the same thing to someone, either they'll get with it,
01:05:05
Speaker
Or they will just run away. It's just very simple, right? And it's, you know, over time that it it travels. I think it's it's it's infectious. it's It's something that we want to do. It's what you're rated against. So, you know, when um when I talk to Sarnabh Biro Yashish today, they are not so interested about my numbers, right?
01:05:21
Speaker
They're very interested sometimes, but mostly they're not interested about my numbers, right? They're more interested about, okay, what did we build? How did this work? um You know, if sales are low, it's almost assumed that it didn't happen because our proposition wasn't right. We never take the stance that, okay, marketing didn't do a good job, a conversion didn't happen, or sales guy wasn't right.
01:05:38
Speaker
That's never the answer. For us, the answer always, oh, maybe we didn't do enough with the product. So can we pack it in a little better? Can we structure a little better? Maybe the price wasn't right. Maybe we didn't reduce the pricing. Or maybe the essentials were not there, so we need to increase the pricing, add the essentials. So,
01:05:52
Speaker
For us, it's an assumed answer that our salesperson didn't happen because we didn't make it properly. And the answer is never, oh, maybe the sales guy wasn't concentrating. Maybe he'll come late. Maybe he'll kill the girl. So I think it flows, right? And and the moment i ah they ask me this question, I'm asking the same question to my team and my team asking the same to their legs.
01:06:13
Speaker
And I guess that's how you um you know you have ah the culture that we've created. ah How do you make sure that the product you're building actually matters to a consumer because ah founders have this tendency to at times build a product they think is amazing, but the market doesn't think it's amazing. So, you know, what is that journey of validating or finding product market fit?
01:06:39
Speaker
Oh, this one's a beautiful answer. We've never designed something on our own. We've always done it because the customers ask for it. Always. So, in fact, today, ah again, most fully in policy was our business. We have an AI engine, right? so I remember i said that, you know, we we we we call out all our customers and we understand what they want and, know, kind of then recommend a product, e etc.
01:06:58
Speaker
But we're collecting all this data. And then we create a word cloud. And we say, okay, these are the questions that they keep asking. yeah are like these These are the words that non-interested customers or non-buying customers say. This is the one that the buying customers say.
01:07:12
Speaker
Oh, here's the difference. Also, he's talking about how quickly they can get the policy. Right. So can I get pre-underwritten products? See, the answer comes from the question they've asked. So I am not sitting here dreaming, saying that, oh, you know what?
01:07:25
Speaker
If I added stethoscope to my plans, then maybe the doctor's PI will sell more. No. It is when we spoke to the consumers, no doctor wants to go through a lawsuit.
01:07:38
Speaker
But more than that, if a lawsuit comes, they don't want to handle it themselves. They feel quite lonely. They don't have lawyer friends. So they say, okay, if your product has a lawyer attached to it, or rather you can help us get a lawyer, whichever way,
01:07:53
Speaker
I want your product. It is giving me a service. Why will I go somewhere else? Or for that matter, if in cyber insurance, if I'm going to handle that call when the bad actor calls, why will the CTO not opt for me?
01:08:06
Speaker
I can't see a reason. I can't see a reason. So why? Because when when we heard them, what the cyber insurance problem was, they said, know, okay, what will happen? All the questions around, okay, so when the breach happens, what will happen?
01:08:20
Speaker
So many questions around claims. Whereas the question should be around what else is covered. So all all all of what we've created comes from what our consumers have been asking for. And we simply answer them. It's it's very straightforward.
01:08:32
Speaker
Okay. That's amazing. So the fact that you have...
Data-Driven Product Improvement and Long-Term Focus
01:08:37
Speaker
humans who are selling is a source of data for you because every sales conversation is a source of data. You would probably be transcribing it and then putting it through like a large language model to design insights.
01:08:49
Speaker
Amazing. Absolutely correct. yeah Okay. Amazing. What are the other ways in which data is helping you become better? So this is one way you told me that your product development, the data for that comes from those conversations with customers, the sales calls.
01:09:02
Speaker
What are the other ways in which data helps? See, like I said, the largest obsession is about creating propositions and products, which the data comes from, like you rightly said. But it's also about our own improvement, right?
01:09:14
Speaker
At what point does the customer drop off, right? It's the usual. Everybody uses it. So, you know, you will have a customer journey. You look at the cycle, whether it's through a call or whether it's on the website. We look at our drop-offs and and then we try and understand what is the reason behind it.
01:09:27
Speaker
And then we get into the metadata of, you know, what is, what is it on a particular page or in a particular conversation that, uh, where a customer loses interest? Is it the payment? Is it, uh, you know, what cards are offered but at the point of payment, whether it's about a a particular product or a particular, uh, uh, you know, juncture where, uh, you know, there is, there's a lot of documentation demand.
01:09:49
Speaker
So we look at this data, uh, almost day in, day out. So it's a regular practice and then we try and improve on that. So think anybody who's working in product at policy bazaar for business is only looking at where did it drop off and what can I do to change it?
01:10:05
Speaker
ah Very process driven, not so much on the UI side, more on the UX design where, okay, can we ask the question earlier or later? Okay, this question, if you're asking for the Aadhaar card, the guy has to get up and go get his Aadhaar card. Can we do some integration there and, you know, kind of get it automatically.
01:10:20
Speaker
Or, ah you know, we're asking for a phone number. It's a bit jarring. Can we just remove it? Or we're asking for the full name. We don't the right, I don't know. there There are multiple things that we come every day. So improving our funnels to make it easier is is a large part of data.
01:10:35
Speaker
In terms of grounds of product design also, we look at a lot of data that comes to us. For example, if somebody is buying health insurance and they're asking, you know, its about, you know, okay, what about term life, right?
01:10:47
Speaker
Can we then create a combo product? on that one, right? So can we ground up design something which covers both health and term life? So stuff like that ah is is all coming from data and in demand. Our day-to-day operations are running data, how our sales are doing, how much time are we logged in, you know who's who's a better agent, what's the other agent, what are the secret sauce of a really good telecaller versus a not so good telecaller.
01:11:11
Speaker
but So they use data, our sales team uses data very, very, ah you know, ah like like elaborately to kind of explain to each other on what is going wrong. In fact, I remember when I was in telesales, I had to kind of, ah you know, sort to asking a friend of mine to kind of listen to my calls and tell me why I wasn't as good as the best telecaller. So, you know, that data does today what a human was doing 20, 25 years ago.
01:11:34
Speaker
but you fa and Okay, fascinating. ah You also have a lot of data around, say, claims and you know that kind of insurance data. Does that help you to go to insurance companies and ask them to change products and terms and prices and stuff like that?
01:11:51
Speaker
Yes, that's exactly what we do. ah So when you look at our claims, you see the way we are structured, our portfolio operates very different from what are our typical insurance company's portfolio operates, right?
01:12:03
Speaker
That's because we there's a high amount of disclosure in the firms that we do. So customers are a little different. They're telling us about the illnesses. So the pricing is different. Now, basically that loss ratio, depending on which product you talk about, we're able to design products far better.
01:12:18
Speaker
In some cases, if the loss ratios are lower, ah we can actually give a higher discount than it's available in the market. In some cases, ah we're able to kind of use that and develop features which best address, let's say, a high loss ratio product.
01:12:32
Speaker
So this data we share with the insurance companies ah a lot. In fact, when I said that we design products, this the loss data is one that we look at ah very closely that we are not creating a product which is not commercially viable.
01:12:45
Speaker
um You know, we it has to be commercially viable and yet price rights to the cost customer doesn't believe it's expensive. So yeah, we have to at loss data. Okay, okay. Understood. ah My last broad question area is um your advice as an experienced founder to young founders, ah you know people who are thinking of starting up or our early stage founders. what What have been your top learnings which you ah would like to share?
01:13:16
Speaker
um You know, they there are therere too many and then there are too few to kind of, ah you know, talk about. But what's worked for us is just being crazy and obsessed about what we want to do with our customers. I think we wanted our proposition to be so strong.
01:13:32
Speaker
And I think that's worked for us. So... um you know, being very, very obsessed about the product ah is, I think everybody should have it. I don't think that anybody should think that, you know, just a great journey or a great looking website or a, ah you know, great marketing will actually you build a business. I think what you sell is of most importance. And I think, you everybody says fail fast but I think there's also the part you know that if there is a promise then just go along with it and it just just there are good times and bad times and i and we've seen all of them right multiple times
01:14:07
Speaker
But you've just got to keep going. ah You know, there there will be a time when the markets are down. There's a time when the markets are up. um For insurance, of course, we remain mostly unaffected by them. But, you know, it's also about every day kind of showing up and doing it. We've we've had good years and bad years.
01:14:24
Speaker
But just showing up and knowing that this is run done for the long run. And, you know, see I've seen a lot of founders going after quick profits or just saying, you know, I want to do this in three years. The best companies aren't traded in three years.
01:14:36
Speaker
most of the best companies will never even, will build a think it's a joke if you think you're going do it in three years. In three years, you can get some success. But a great organization is built over 10 years. So if you're going to found something, right? If you're going to kind of build something, think of of building this for the next 20 years.
01:14:55
Speaker
Think very long term and then put your milestone. Say you want to do an IPO in X number of years. I don't even know what but what but but the right number there is. But please think 20 years. Please think that I'm going retire from this company And I would have built a masterpiece at least in my own eyes.
01:15:13
Speaker
So I think those are the only two things that i have seen ah that that really set us apart versus the others. I think everybody else is quite capable and doing quite well. But but these are these are my two nuggets that I try to share.
01:15:27
Speaker
Thank you so much for your time, Tarun. It was a real pleasure. Thank you so much, Akshay. Pleasure being here.