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KukuFM's Secret Sauce: Exclusivity, Efficiency, and 'Asli Dhanda'
0 Playsin 4 hours
"Raising more money often means you made more mistakes."
This counter-intuitive take from Vinod Kumar Meena challenges the common startup narrative where fundraising equals success. He argues that true success lies in capital efficiency and building a sustainable business, not just chasing the next round.
Vinod Kumar Meena is the Co-Founder & COO of KukuFM, India's leading audio content platform. An IIT Jodhpur graduate and Forbes 30 Under 30 Asia honoree, he has scaled Kuku FM to over 6 million paying subscribers, targeting over ₹1000 Crore ($150M) in ARR, demonstrating phenomenal growth in the vernacular content space after raising over $70M.
Key Insights from the Conversation:
👉Why Silicon Valley startup advice can be detrimental in the Indian context.
👉The critical role of content exclusivity and understanding 'Bharat' for monetization.
👉Mastering digital distribution, influencer marketing, and why 'ads are content'.
👉The 'science' behind engaging mobile-first content (fast-paced, escapism).
👉Why gut calls often trump logical debates in decision-making.
👉Building a 'default alive' business vs. a VC-dependent startup.
👉AI's role as an enabler in content, not (yet) a replacement for creators.
Chapters:
(0:00:00) - Intro: Vinod's Journey from Village to IIT & Entrepreneurship
(0:07:30) - Early Startups, EdTech & Selling to Toppr
(0:18:08) - Why Vinod Left EdTech & The Power of Travel
(0:23:23) - Genesis of Kuku FM: Identifying the Vernacular Audio Gap
(0:29:45) - Building Content Supply & Cracking Monetization for India
(0:46:40) - Deep Dive: Monetization Strategy & Exclusivity
(0:51:30) - Unique Distribution Tactics: Influencers & Content-as-Ads
(01:06:30) - Mobile-First Content Science: What Engages 'Bharat'?
(01:17:50) - Challenging Startup Norms: Fundraising, Gut Calls & Silicon Valley Myths
(01:49:25) - AI in Content: Hype vs. Reality & Future Outlook
(01:55:35) - Final Advice: Build a BUSINESS, Not Just a Startup
#FounderThesis #StartupIndia #IndianStartups #ContentBusiness #VernacularContent #AudioPlatform #Podcast #Entrepreneurship #StartupAdvice #Monetization #DigitalMarketing #InfluencerMarketing #BuildingForBharat #MakeInIndia #MediaTech #ContentStrategy #Fundraising #VentureCapital #BootstrappingMindset #Leadership #businessstrategy
Disclaimer: The views expressed are those of the speaker, not necessarily the channel.
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Transcript
Product Teams' Role in Startups
00:00:00
Speaker
Your business, nobody can know your business better than you. So taking GAN from somebody else will always, always hurt you. Product teams come in the very center of the business.
00:00:12
Speaker
That is the biggest mistake any startup can do. Product is there to enable the business. It is not the business. 500 million people paying for content.
00:00:23
Speaker
Just because couple of people sitting in fancy offices believe that Indian people are poor, it will not be poor. It's more efficient to do than actually sit and debate that thing for Netflix.
00:00:37
Speaker
A lot of Western companies feel that India is not a market to make money by selling content. And proof is that both Netflix and Spotify are very small in terms of their India revenue. It is a very tiny revenue.
Introducing Vinod Kumar Mina
00:00:51
Speaker
hot star sold off the india ah business to geo but in this episode i'm speaking to vinod kumar mina whose thesis is that indians do pay for content you just have to figure out how to create content and sell it to them in a way that works i'm your host akshay dutt and this is the founder thesis podcast
00:01:18
Speaker
How did you become an entrepreneur? What's your origin story? What's your origin
00:01:28
Speaker
so So, let me tell you a bit about my childhood and then how I ended up here. So, ah I come from, ah like I was born in a small village in Rajasthan.
00:01:45
Speaker
Spent some time there. that, I was a company's job, so I was transferred to the government. So, with them, there were multiple cities across in
Vinod's Early Life and Education
00:01:59
Speaker
India. eraa lake From as something as small as Kutney to something as large as Delhi.
00:02:05
Speaker
lived everywhere. saw that so vobiotata fairly bahaage deliatory All the And course mean, in deep deep.
00:02:39
Speaker
english may heavy book beat to be teacher in the way yeah week but will be the ah so yeah so multiple like i've seen india across and would love coffee deep One of the to make some science projects.
00:03:00
Speaker
And the central schools of that state would bring their science projects to it equal science fair wala dataap and science fairlic even do dataap yeah which which science predict moocator but all these rules of that state all the central schools of that state would the data science project so ah so The standard of ah so innovation was quite decent. It was fun. I year. It was fun.
00:03:28
Speaker
Did you ever win? mean, you don't win. You keep going level by level. datater okay ah but like it but the I don't even remember what levels were.
00:03:42
Speaker
But was in school and then I was in a couple of schools. have that no that are then hence so I went one or two level up. That's it. Not a lot. But I liked it. don't matter that much. It matters a lot. I don't have that much matter. I don't have that much for the win. But yeah. So that was interesting. After that, then...
00:03:59
Speaker
but yeah so that that was interesting <unk>ad the fell so ah excuses a miracle like akihe engineering can medical stand but I I I
00:04:22
Speaker
And then I got to IAT. Did you prepare for it? Like Kota? Kota didn't go. I was living in Delhi at that time.
00:04:34
Speaker
but My family was coaching in Delhi. I prepared, but ah yeah, I prepared. After that, I had been in IIT. I didn't think it would happen because I didn't study.
00:04:50
Speaker
ah But it's done. At that time, I went to college in the computer science branch. And computer science was good. I spent a lot of time in that domain.
00:05:03
Speaker
But I still enjoyed it. I would spend them a lot of time in labs. I would spend more time in labs than any anything else.
00:05:18
Speaker
Then that boot also got out a few days later. Then started working in the fest. Then I big thing. You're doing so big events. So many people are coming.
00:05:29
Speaker
Volume of money, footfall, transactions, everything is happening. That seems it seemed interesting. the woia feel and idoal evenly but is spja ni get somebody like yeah yeah im karnna personane which could building enough and really put bigger karnaro du carnevo gu mika lotu butraha vervanaja soft vchago event kar what difference meo that your expertise is not.
00:06:01
Speaker
I had to have expertise in My husband has created this. It's not in any software field or belief over time that expertise is a fraud.
00:06:19
Speaker
You spend enough time in a domain, and you can build anything anywhere. So I started starting the first startup in college time.
00:06:30
Speaker
We were trying to make things in the We were making multiple products. We made a of products, and failed. Ultimately, what worked for us was this test prep series platform. Like we were doing this offline, we were doing test series, JEE, PMT, send kids to home.
00:06:53
Speaker
and kobacha but fkaque um mope based italy So we got the same thing digitally. and When you get the, you would do it online digitally, you can do more with analytics and all those things.
00:07:07
Speaker
Right. So
Entrepreneurial Ventures and Test Prep Success
00:07:08
Speaker
nothing very fancy today. If you tell anybody like you could potentially create that business in six months or so. Right.
00:07:17
Speaker
So very simple business. Um, but yeah, need the, uh, So, we got a good distribution. milla In Rajasthan, we distributed that product to a pretty decent scale.
00:07:32
Speaker
What do you mean distribution? head Like this was a subscription, people would pay for it and then use it online? So, basically, there were a couple of monetization methods. One was people can pay for it. That was very small. The other was the coaching institutes or the schools can buy it for their kids.
00:07:51
Speaker
So, that was the larger bit. ah coaching institutes were also buying to sell their own test and series through them. But the school one was the largest where schools were getting it for their kids to kind of... And there the use case was very different.
00:08:08
Speaker
the the The use case was not as much as test prep, but more of how much water we have. So, the schools wanted to know how their results are going to trend at the end of the year.
00:08:21
Speaker
So, that we had... distributed to a pretty large school. this was ITJEE focused. JEE needs both. And yeah, at the time we were basically also, we were not English like Baiju or m e Topper and all these players.
00:08:40
Speaker
We were English and Hindi both. So like we had Hindi typists in our office who would type the entire paper, Christian paper in Hindi. So, at that time, because that TG nobody else was selling to.
00:08:54
Speaker
We were the only ones there. And Jai in Hindi also? Jai in Hindi? I have friends. My co-founder wrote Jai in Hindi. Okay, okay, okay. Okay, got it. Yeah. So, you'll find a lot of people who had given in Hindi and came to IIT.
00:09:15
Speaker
So, o strategically there was nothing in the market which you... There was nothing in the market for that. Okay. So, how much did you get in that? Like, at the peak of that business? That business was very small. That business was very small. Not very large. butli kibaceti salber was and both and withly but love We were kids. love huh If you look at from the point of view at that time, we made some money.
00:09:43
Speaker
How did you did you learn sales? You or your co-founder? Yeah, what do you at that time? We were six people at that time. but stand the channel there So, who did it.
00:09:58
Speaker
so still somebody ecor marisa work and like booker da But yeahha but ah and so thank you si canakqui role define it just sick well koyki sister sam milka don but the va allla is up takia yeah,
Selling to Topper: Motives and Challenges
00:10:18
Speaker
but yeah, Vivek and Bisu did a lot of sales in that business.
00:10:24
Speaker
So yeah, after that, then... Then what did he pay for? yeah' So,
00:10:40
Speaker
ah We came Sounder of Topper. Topper. So, this was great idea convinced us that why should we sell?
00:10:53
Speaker
and convinced us should we sell? And I think the logic we created in our head was that we all have raised lot of money. We are a very small company.
00:11:06
Speaker
What will we do more than that? And wasn't that because we were making a lot of revenue. banal Obviously we had funding, we had little bit of money. Like there was no issues in the business.
00:11:19
Speaker
But We were already planning that it would not happen to Jodhpur. We were going to Bombay or plan But time, we came to Jodhpur and convinced us.
00:11:37
Speaker
Why should we sell? And in that, he told us his own story of why he sold his first business and then ah built this business. So I had a lot of sense at that time. But you don't agree with the with your with the premise. I don't agree with the premise.
00:11:57
Speaker
You were not thinking the right way. I don't think that he should not sell business. He should sell business. I don't want to stay at Tech today. But I don't agree with the premise that you have to learn lot while working.
00:12:16
Speaker
That's also my dream. and By working at larger companies, you learn a lot on how to run a business.
00:12:27
Speaker
One of reasons to sell was this, you will a part of a big company. one of the reasons to sell was this gap buty company apartments obviously t co ah yeah sure or data It's a double-edged word. like I have seen both sides of the coin.
00:12:41
Speaker
Some people do. some There are some businesses where you need that expertise to kind of run the business. And then there are businesses where it doesn't really matter. So you have both.
00:12:52
Speaker
So both have. yeah go Okay, so he sent Topper and we basically worked for two two and a half years.
00:13:05
Speaker
He was exit after that. There was a lot of sales there. There was a lot of offline sales on ground time spent there.
Critique of EdTech Sales Tactics
00:13:15
Speaker
ah yeah and So I actually ran sales teams for the Northwest region, Badudra, Ahmedabad, Jaipur for quite some time. A decent chunk of topers revenue used to come from me.
00:13:36
Speaker
What was the revenue model? Was it B2C? Like Baiju's? B2C. Same as Baiju's. and Same as Baiju's. Parents were sent to the parents basically. ah Not to schools.
00:13:46
Speaker
That infamous Baiju's sales technique. I have seen that in front of me by my agents.
00:13:57
Speaker
That was one of the reasons also, just because I finally left and took a break. but What did you not agree with? With the way EdTech is sold to parents?
00:14:09
Speaker
Yeah. Which is a very controversial topic, but okay. What basically happens EdTech, insurance, what are you all getting fear? Now, there's no limit to getting fear.
00:14:29
Speaker
I have seen... They called the sales agents by Jus Stopper. For all theoretical purposes, they are sales agents. Because if they want to say educational counselors, would have to raise decent education backgrounds. That's an industry norm. What was that?
00:14:51
Speaker
um was yeah of was small take it like yeah who
00:14:56
Speaker
up cookie fear bittro the fear bit ni guyicek yeah lowba years that take care You should basically help your kid achieve his or her dreams.
00:15:08
Speaker
And the other extreme is, which a lot of people do when nobody is looking, is that... you don't want good for your kid. mean, I'm saying these are also softer words. These people will say... You're saying that
Personal Growth Through Travel and Risk-taking
00:15:27
Speaker
that. more... I mean, and then... mean, you work one time with sales people, then Then you're very... mean, you would become very shrewd.
00:15:38
Speaker
Because salespeople lie, salespeople deceive. mean... Now, we will send sales down here in the podcast. A lot lot of things happen there. That person teaches a lot. I always say that person is working in sales. Absolutely, absolutely.
00:15:56
Speaker
I completely agree. So, yeah. Did that. Then after, left for 6 months, break.
00:16:08
Speaker
When you took break, le upnito it was just... yeah You wanted to get out of Topper, not like you wanted to do something else. That's not clear. What you want to do? I didn't know. didn't know anything. didn't know anything. I didn't know anything. Before I knew that I was leaving. After that, I was just chilling. I went to sit and sit and then I went to sit. Then we were three brothers here in Thailand. Cambodia was a very happy country in the middle of the country.
00:16:34
Speaker
No one went there. Now people are still going. When we went to sit and sit, no one was not going there. So, we were running the time and we were just brainstorming about what we can do.
00:16:46
Speaker
That's all, a little bit. We didn't have any stress on the target that we were taking daily daily daily. We were brainstorming a little bit. But again, I'm a little unstructured man, I'll tell you some things later. Here is thing that I tell you all. There is a story that I've heard a lot of times, but I'll repeat it.
00:17:03
Speaker
so and ofhaba in yeah but repeat So, I learned to take ah risks from traveling. So, basically,
00:17:26
Speaker
That is what middle class makes us. yeah Okay? Now, when you travel and you see what other people are seeing doing across the globe, when you meet 10-15 countries, you realize that these people are not people-prezers, nor are they so close.
00:17:48
Speaker
And I'll tell you one small story. We are here... um logie that is yes We were in and the asked her to pay some money and she was going to manage it.
00:18:24
Speaker
There are thousands of kids after school, before going to college, after military service, after college. I mean, in when a go um i don't leastcapeite care When I compare that, I realize that something is different.
00:18:58
Speaker
Because it's not that these people are not becoming doctor or engineer. I have met people who are traveling like this, who are pharma scientist, a computer science engineer, or something else. They are all the same as their work.
00:19:17
Speaker
But that is also part of life. Why did we feel that if I took a break for three months, life will be lost? It was the same feeling.
00:19:30
Speaker
When I was growing up, it was definitely unimaginable. You can take a drop year. In Western countries, it's very common gap year. Yes.
00:19:41
Speaker
So that thing I like. Now, some of the problems are different. But still, important thing.
00:19:58
Speaker
But anyways, so we do a lot. So yeah, after that, yeah
00:20:07
Speaker
Then what happened? Then we had lot of discipline. The story starts in the beach. We had to go were talking and we were talking. We were doing a little work. What we will do, we think. One day, we were a good friend and my investors are also Gagan. We were run for the morning. I to this was and I
00:20:38
Speaker
So we were walking around and the and the was watching it.
00:20:50
Speaker
The vibe is very nice. thought, let's see VeeWorks. So we went to see VeeWorks and at home. We were at VeeWorks we were all sitting and and feeling like this. I thought, this is a big place.
00:21:07
Speaker
So we talk about it and we here I come, here it is a desk concept in the work. You don't get dedicated space name likega but you get to come here and work here.
00:21:21
Speaker
they take two seats here. Life will come in discipline in the morning and they will come here. So that was the only logic. We were making products before we were making some things and I also imported Alexa and I office in the office.
00:21:47
Speaker
rented the office. We rented the hot desk in our work. We went there. We went there in the morning and worked there. Obviously, speed was increased. Then we started to make a new product every week. We started to try something and try it. Multiple apps.
00:22:04
Speaker
We had to try something blockchain. We had to write something randomly. We will launch it or not. We will research it for ourselves. We will make product and we will do a little time pass. Then when we launched our audio app, had a time for week.
00:22:20
Speaker
but um audio valley launchche e have takega time the family e ka the ah Would be that you also met with who talked about your content and your podcast.
The Rise of an Audio Platform
00:22:33
Speaker
And so both things. And we launched the end of the week.
00:22:40
Speaker
Because we had done a of so we had to take a look at data first version was all proper measurements.
00:22:56
Speaker
So when we started watching the first version of the listening time, although if you look on the screen, be time was above 30 minutes.
00:23:17
Speaker
So I thought that 30 minutes didn't to anyone's day zero. Content obviously decent is because podcasters have been integrated into RSS feed.com. But there is a need that people are listening to this. So then thought that here is a business.
00:23:36
Speaker
Although in some time we understood that podcast is not going to be vertical. But need of listening audio was clear. Okay, I just want to explain some things to the audience.
00:23:51
Speaker
So basically, podcast is different from YouTube. YouTube is both hosting and playing the video. If you Spotify.
00:24:10
Speaker
um are taking the file from a hosting service and that can take any of that file. So what you did was you built like Spotify clone which was able to play the podcast files for the listeners.
00:24:25
Speaker
ah Yes. There is only one important thing. So when I say podcast is very different from where we moved in future. So podcast as a nature of content format is captular.
00:24:40
Speaker
So podcast is very similar to YouTube. What you we do you mean? Capsular? Capsular. Capsular. Yeah. It's basically one capsule that is not linked to the previous or the next episode.
00:24:55
Speaker
So the consumption of capsular content pieces happens very different from consumption of long-form content pieces. Series kind of content pieces. So... Your...
00:25:06
Speaker
ah YouTube, Spotify, TikTok, Instagram are all capsular content platforms. The platform is built to send you from one capsule to another. yeah Okay. Okay.
00:25:18
Speaker
I'm like saying Netflix. Netflix can't play a podcast because behavior is different. Got it. Okay.
00:25:29
Speaker
whereas youtube may ah e poka so no get is not necessary go see pokaka next and got the up but could you be the consequence would takega got it okay Yeah, okay.
00:25:40
Speaker
Now we're going to get our own. We've got a little clip. yeah So home loganist time theellala was then launched yeah, the the content. These were Indian content contact creators?
00:25:55
Speaker
Yes, these were Indian content creators. We got 2-4 of them, and we added them. Like IBM and all of these. Yeah, yeah. First of all, we and We integrate like that.
00:26:16
Speaker
yeah This was an audio app, but in parallel, a vertical video app launched at that time. It was called Tuk Tuk, it doesn't exist. in ni that said Multiple content apps launched. The idea was that, because of the NGO, suddenly, the internet population has exploded.
00:26:35
Speaker
in india image geoke which just says suddenly internet population skyrocket carge yeah on This is not going to consume content. consume in
00:27:02
Speaker
No one serves them. In the beginning, we scaled the audio because audio is very low barrier to entry. that you one exists, was empty in our market. So, Audios had started.
00:27:21
Speaker
So, but what you're saying is that... You didn't want to just be like a Spotify distributor. Spotify doesn't create content, generally speaking. There are like exceptions they bought to when podcasting company. But they're essentially a distribution platform. There, no podcast can their podcast. You realize that there's no need for that distribution platform in India.
00:27:44
Speaker
ah You need to also create vernacular content. Let's see. We didn't reach all this at that Obviously, when you go into business, you think that easily get piece work.
00:28:13
Speaker
But that doesn't get it because the content creator doesn't exist in audio. Because of radio, radio never had stories. Radio is always um commentary with music and ads.
00:28:25
Speaker
So we never had long form content in audio historically. So we had to do everything from scratch and that's why we had to be behave both like a label and a platform. But I mean, I always say that all these are logical boundaries that we place.
00:28:43
Speaker
What should the customer be for? That means that you yourself, make it another, buy it yourself, buy it yourself, how do you do it? If you draw boundaries in business, have seen businesses fail because of those rigid boundaries.
00:29:02
Speaker
Okay. Although today we don't create content, it's all outside. we haven't done that. In the beginning, there was a studio where there was a content record. Okay.
00:29:14
Speaker
okay So how did you decide? You have no experience in content creation. So how did you decide how to create content and then deciding what content is going to which language is going to be, how to create story, fiction, non-fiction?
00:29:31
Speaker
So a couple of things, right? When we were doing education also, it's not exactly the same, but that's also some form of content. So we had some bit of idea how to do stuff.
00:29:46
Speaker
Two, the humble rule always is that you don't know anything. There are people who have been doing this for a while and they are the best people to do this.
00:29:58
Speaker
And this is something I keep explaining to my team also, my leaders also. If you go to the writer's story, you don't have give the input. Creativity cannot even in-house scale.
00:30:09
Speaker
yeah creativity take a be in how skill whohi is a There is a reason the Indian media industry in Indian industry... Not a lot of production houses went public, right? Because the decision making was... We haven't made Disney, basically.
00:30:27
Speaker
ah Because decision making is human dependent. You can't do it. We don't have a skill. So how do you do that? You scale creativity by...
00:30:41
Speaker
Increasing your top of the funnel.
00:30:52
Speaker
But without 6 months, people will be giving a good idea. Then that person will give you an excellent idea. Basically, you have a fragmented ah supply that helps you increase creativity.
00:31:05
Speaker
Creativity in-house can't be scaled. I mean, I think I think like rule. Very interesting. Very, very interesting. Okay. Okay, got it. So you started going and finding creators. whether That was step one. Once you realized k yeah platform that platform will going. We were finding creators. We were asking them to create content. We also incentivized them that they will grow and grow. That will be a better situation then.
00:31:34
Speaker
ah all the other better hogue situation And everything. The initial of the creators, we remember when we used to tell them that actually there will be monetization and you will start earning through consumers.
00:31:48
Speaker
Some of them today, were good at the content, are actually making a lot of money now with us. A lot of them, are not getting the quality, ca yeah they are not. But for a half year, it will be a that there will monetization in a day.
00:32:03
Speaker
but but You were initially convincing people to do it without any upfront payment. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. But we didn't know how to do consumer monetization. In which form it will come, in ads, in subscription form. Because all those things also we learned as we entered the business and we started spending time with consumers and all, right?
00:32:29
Speaker
and Okay. So from there, I was just chaotic.
00:32:34
Speaker
These were like what? Like writers? Yeah, voice artists? They were all kinds of people. From ah to small YouTubers to writers to teachers to government job employees.
00:32:45
Speaker
So what are these teachers and government employees here? ah Hindi, we were only Hindi. In fact, Malayalam is actually similar to Jitabatha.
00:32:57
Speaker
and That local language thing and a little bit of of understanding of non-fiction content exists quite well. So those people are non-fiction content. So this... Because they history you most important. You write the fiction from teachers. So in starting, what think was the content creator. will like up pe like exalta se nilahamma Then we started going to serious creators. Obviously, scale has increased and we also have conviction. We got more money from market also.
00:33:36
Speaker
And then we started putting money on content creation. We made content. so Slowly, start things started moving there. okay Okay, interesting.
00:33:47
Speaker
So, okay, you created a supply content. Then, tell us about the demand side.
Content Exclusivity and Consumer Engagement
00:33:53
Speaker
How did you... the Did you raise money to get ah people to download the app? Yeah, we raised money.
00:34:00
Speaker
Starting before, I had put money on my own. And after that, we raced. Because we had, like, we knew people in the industry already, who were VCs and all, so fairly easily we raced.
00:34:15
Speaker
how How did you know, people? Did you start the venture for IIT? Or did you raced for that? Because of butla because australia we we had sold that business and Some investors were there, they also knew. There were other friends from the industry.
00:34:30
Speaker
but love In fact, Gagan, one of our friends, who I'm telling you, he's a reworked, he's also investor. So, there were people who were willing to put money.
00:34:46
Speaker
So, it was not that difficult. Money race was done. So, money race is done. Because this market, you can't do money without money.
00:34:56
Speaker
Because what is the content industry? You can make it for a person or a crore person. Yes, the cost of supply is the same. Yes, so that's why game is different here. But yeah, we had raised money. We invested a lot of money in user acquisitions, getting the content.
00:35:17
Speaker
the first year, I thought that it's different capsular and long-form. It's not only one year, it's okay. It's okay, we'll be able to do it. What's difference between the product and the capsular long-form?
00:35:32
Speaker
YouTube paid billions of dollars for movies and TV series to sell their platform. It doesn't work because the platform built capsular behavior. kelly Spotify spent billions of drill dollars trying to get long-form content on their platform. The only thing they were able to do was podcast.
00:35:53
Speaker
when these big companies are not able to do so much money, then what different. but One is UGC kind of a behavior with high frequency, mostly ad monetized.
00:36:10
Speaker
One is long form PGC kind of behavior with subscriptions or other user pay for professional generated content. Okay. okay yeah So both are different playbooks.
00:36:23
Speaker
If you don't have clarity, then it gets worse than that. they will So I learned a little bit about supply-side consumer, what content is, ah And then our understanding goes deeper. We doubled on books before. We took the rights of books, made summaries of what do we say?
00:36:48
Speaker
ah Book explanation, what do we say? Books, two months ago, I thought that there are books in India. Because we don't have to read it. Are you only watching Indian authors or international books? We also watched it out.
00:37:01
Speaker
So, like Malcolm Gladwell, ah those kind of authors. Not those, but those who are famous in India. Like Think and Grow Rich or Richard Atwood. So, you got the right for vernacular audio for that book.
00:37:18
Speaker
Yes, vernacular is very easy. Who is not selling Hindi? No one is selling a publisher. But very quickly realized that books are not in India. No one is reading in India.
00:37:30
Speaker
So we have make originals. Most of the non-fiction library on Cuckoo today is original to us. And most of the content on Cuckoo today in non-fiction, it like the like the library, non-fiction library on Cuckoo today is so deep.
00:37:46
Speaker
But there are so many topics that you cannot find anywhere else. So I have talked to customers who have told me that was looking at this content. I wanted to read read about this historical empire.
00:37:59
Speaker
And the only place I found content about this is Kuku. get on YouTube, I didn't get it on any book, just like that. So we went that deep in our non-fiction library.
00:38:10
Speaker
all of it from self-help, personal finance, history. silly like yeah We made every kind of content. So we went very deep in that. Then in entertainment, that we also have been deeply in entertainment. We have all sorts of plots, we get to know how many plots you can get to Google.
00:38:34
Speaker
So yeah these were all but like you were paying people to write for you. Like these were commissioned works. Yeah. So basically and we were the labels for these content pieces. Okay. Yeah. but of Obviously content creation out there. But we are doing cost. We are doing cost. We are getting a royalty share.
00:38:53
Speaker
like Yeah. So that kind of thing. Okay. Got it. Got it. So we were doing that kind of thing. And he says, this is a very interesting flywheel. That get engaged. Because your customer is more engaged, you get more data points will on what is working.
00:39:18
Speaker
And it's a very interesting flywheel. And this good content, which is more listening, more watch time, array this helps you acquire a new users also. So...
00:39:30
Speaker
means a very different exponential kick-in when it kicks in. It's growth curve. Okay. How much time did it take for that growth curve to kick in? When did it come to flywheel? When we started monetization, after that, obviously the growth rate has been constantly increasing. It's been exploded.
00:39:53
Speaker
But after that, we started. After that, we had a business long term. I was listening to 2019 and everyone said that India's ceiling is here. Someone that there are 1 million paid customers in India. That there is a plateau in Ghana.
00:40:19
Speaker
I was like in my head, I was like... yeah how we can be conservative. who or tora ahlas yeah gay um'm low cookie And a lot of us move a lot very away from actual India.
00:40:37
Speaker
And then we made a perception of the bottom India, just sitting there, the whole whole 20-year perception. So I've heard people tell me that it's a 1 million plateau.
00:40:48
Speaker
Starting, someone said 10 million is only in India. No, it's not 10 million. Our Geostar is 60-70 million. Now you say 10 million, then... ham much geoar inars at three million bit all up to ten million boliga Already in India, we are already giving money for 1500 million in the world. So now, it's going to be 1500 million in people's minds. 1500 million, I'm telling you, I'm going to cross 500 million. going to put a bet on this podcast today. When will cross
00:41:17
Speaker
crosska
00:41:20
Speaker
When our internet population reach 1 billion, it will reach 500 million. points yeah okay so i blend ni with him We but it can be faster. 500 million people paying for content.
00:41:38
Speaker
Amazing. Amazing. So yeah, I know that this is happening. I mean, it's not like that because just because couple of people sitting in fancy offices believe that Indian people are poor, won't be really poor.
00:41:52
Speaker
yeah ah How did you learn about how to monetize? Because at the beginning, you were talking about free. You just subscribe and start listening. no subscript I mean, you just download and listen. No subscription needed.
00:42:04
Speaker
That was what you launched. ah to pal it is sent free buttaza credit twenty one Yeah, our subscription in January. twenty twenty one ja we started selling our subscription We sold our subscription for very cheap back then. could store Some 3.99 annual. Those were discounts. to them So that is how we started. After we started selling, then it was good. Then growth was good. Because obviously the consumer that comes after the paywall is more serious about your product.
00:42:36
Speaker
ah And because you are charging the consumer, you can put more money on content also. So with that, the equation started improving. instead of a hussi butas sal um <unk>sia which And I think, close ah users you pass close yet um and then skiba hundred thousand
00:43:07
Speaker
great users you're say paid users yes okay since then every year we have been Growing anywhere between 2.5 to times type.
00:43:20
Speaker
It means that there is a very rapid growth. How many paid users are now? I will in close to 6 million paying customers. on yeah Okay, wow.
00:43:32
Speaker
Amazing. Where Netflix over the last couple of years ago, we were there now. Netflix is over the last couple of years. Netflix over the last couple of years. Netflix has reached a little bit. 14-15 has reached the latest report.
00:43:45
Speaker
the mayor i estimation yet like you can should be up latest report the yeah I was cross a little bit soon. But still, we'll cross Netflix soon. In a year or so. not ah and Less than a year, for sure.
00:43:57
Speaker
Wow. You're saying you'll double your paying subscribers? Yes, yes. Aram. yeah How like like but this is like phenomenal. you don't have a small base. You have a large base. If you say you'll double it in 6 million. So basically, the most interesting thing in this business that your flywheel has a very good growth engine effect. Very you good effect on your growth engine. and Because you have more paid customers, you know what content pieces are working.
00:44:29
Speaker
You learn about content faster. You get more money to spend on content. and there is very different way of it.
00:44:38
Speaker
Fascinating. Okay. ah ah Tell me a bit about your learning on how to sell content, like how to monetize for content, how to sell, to contribute to these people. basically, what So, India the country.
00:44:52
Speaker
Before we come to this, did you experiment in your ad or did you decide straight away? Straight away subscription. we were talking a lot from consumers. So, because we could see that the perceived value of the product in customer's head is very high because ah yeah i was they starting to sell books, not books like published books, books but, uh, originals, originals, but even though that it's not published, but on our platform, it's called a book.
00:45:28
Speaker
Right. So it was just like a audio drama in a way. or non-fiction content I'm talking about. so yeah So basically starting, we were sending content which i and because people were consuming it off the screen, consuming
Digital Strategies in Content and Advertising
00:45:51
Speaker
time, so the perceived value was much higher.
00:45:56
Speaker
So we were very clear that if I was I will try to make ad revenue, then I will decrease the same user. But when it's so high perceived value, I can actually charge my user. And this is where that capsule versus non-capsular long-form content play also kicked in.
00:46:13
Speaker
Here long-form, typically consumer paid revenues are better than advertisements. So launched subscription. logic here ah yeah And talking about some other things here.
00:46:27
Speaker
How to make selling to India? like Like making Indian things for ah how to make yeah So india India is a very value conscious market. What happens in India?
00:46:41
Speaker
Customer tries to get the best deal. will yeah But it's not that we won't do good things for good. In India, the consumer pays for even the most ah expensive of products also.
00:46:56
Speaker
But they want the best... Even the customer buying the most expensive product wants the best deal for that product. It's a very value-conscious product. So what happens if your content is exclusive, if the same content is available at 10 places, the consumer will keep on trying to get it for free.
00:47:13
Speaker
So that is the problem that happened with music. Because one place you are listening, then you hit paywall. You move to the other platform, you hit paywall. Then you go to YouTube, you are not hitting a paywall.
00:47:26
Speaker
So you keep on continuing like that. If you have an option to consume it for free, you will consume it for free. So for us, exclusivity was the key for making the consumer pay.
00:47:37
Speaker
ah This is the custom content that you only get on Cuckoo. You don't do not get this content anywhere else. and Okay. And that is what Spotify is lacking in India.
00:47:48
Speaker
That is what any music platform is lacking in India. Right, right. That's why Ghana and Saur could not escape. So that's why no music platform has that large of a paying base as any OTT, right? OTTs have tens of millions of paying customers. Music platforms are still sitting at close one million kind of a number. Right.
00:48:11
Speaker
and nothing number but That works very well for impulse buy. But that doesn't work very well for engagement. So what happens? The consumer comes and says, I have to read this book, I have to install it, I have to pay it. The free episode of 5 of the book doesn't listen to it, have to pay it. Because the influencer has to say it.
00:48:33
Speaker
After that, you start listening. So the engagement typically lower than... Then you are, what you mean? First of all, you consume the content and then you come to the IIO. It's not that today, we don't do YouTube. Today we do lot of influencers today, but obviously, was a ceiling. We have been exploited it all and then we have come to a steady state.
00:48:58
Speaker
But today, you see the entire YouTube ecosystem of influencers. That was actually built on backs of what Kuku did back in 2021.
00:49:12
Speaker
What do you mean by that? Like like in the sense that you can monetize in India. So basically, every YouTuber was doing Cuckoo branding in India. there were very few brands that came to YouTubers. capacity After that, there were many companies in the market that said, you can integrate this In fact, if you go and call lot of YouTubers today,
00:49:37
Speaker
You will listen to their scripts, when they say. Those are the exact same lines that Kukung has iterated over time. That this action comes from saying, this action comes from saying. Even that exact words, you use it to optimize it. Amazing. In the YouTube industry, everybody knows us. Every single person knows us.
00:50:07
Speaker
Every YouTuber had to be a dream of working with Kuku. If Kuku is a fool, then all the brands will come to us. Oh, wow. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Okay. Okay. that's the OG distribution. After that, we're coming to another distribution. fa But vo distribution with the digital content is drastically evolving.
00:50:30
Speaker
The majority of people are not yet reached there. Today people talk about branding, that they are like branding, that are like branding, that they are living for 10-20 years. Which channels are you trying to do?
00:50:42
Speaker
I'll tell you, let's talk about channels. Like you said, tier 1 and tier 2 are different channels. come cur there to What is the difference? Why does one challenge to channel work for each other? No, tier 1 and tier 2 are different channels. I mean, how do channels work for each other.
00:50:56
Speaker
sort
00:50:59
Speaker
Basically, you can distribute multiple different ways. You can distribute digital, offline, and then you can distribute partnership. And three are quite standard in the entire world, where we use it.
00:51:15
Speaker
And then in digital, you could do yeah kate YouTube, you could do ah yeahca was there let click so you could do YouTube, you could do proper ads, Google Facebook ads. so So, you have two options Now, the key comes and keeps it. The key comes and keeps it. The key comes and keeps it. The key comes and keeps it. The key comes and keeps it.
00:51:43
Speaker
the comes and keeps it. What was the first thing? The ad was added. Today, the content is added. gupe would you add it basically what your add day ro but del but out the po add add to the ah add content to that ah Okay. Okay. perfect example of that. Zomato is a perfect example of that. It's just that most of the people in market, because how do you work in the market?
00:52:09
Speaker
What will you do in the market?
00:52:13
Speaker
it's just that most of the people in market yeah company at ike gottiap market makeico tager hika keleia still have the hangover of older version of ads.
00:52:25
Speaker
Typically, who are the senior most people in the industry? People who did TV ads, right? Because the the they had so up but the way TV ads work versus the way a digital ad works is very different.
00:52:41
Speaker
Zomato's ad. TV ads are also creative. with Like, where they're not directly... mean, like Cadbury chocolate. I know. There are a few companies who have been able to crack that.
00:52:55
Speaker
But not a lot. mean, this is one part of the funnel. ah so deeper who Basically, the bottom line is that add any content. That's it.
00:53:05
Speaker
Interesting. Okay. Okay, I understand. Okay. So that is key in digital success. Key in digital success. That is the key in digital. And between digital may...
00:53:17
Speaker
and digital me paid acquisition and organic acquisition. Like organic through like SEO. This is the of organic.
00:53:41
Speaker
quite a yeah why is it like There is a You can imagine that you are naturally organic. You are naturally organic. You are naturally organic. You are because you your base will increase.
00:53:56
Speaker
naturally you don't have any ah and additional paid acquisition but so whichganica butto aga but because we are doing paid acquisition so of be but you top you're getting but yeah At the same time, because overflow is paid acquisition, it will also be organic. So organic is nothing but a function of how much you are spending digitally.
00:54:19
Speaker
Okay. But you get a lot of SEO benefits because every piece of content will be... SEO will in the moment, sir. Okay. Who does the search today?
00:54:30
Speaker
Okay. No, but... It's all the time. Somebody was searching for some historical subject. I'm understanding it, but SEO will be in the moment.
00:54:41
Speaker
You don't get sign-ups sign up single they Like organic Google search. ah But it's it's a smaller percentage of things. Now, You should ask yourself, how many times do Google We are not an example
00:54:57
Speaker
of a good example. We not an Indian mirror. No, you are right. YouTube open a lot more to search for something. If there is a problem, we will search for something first. That's true. Interesting. And you offline also?
00:55:11
Speaker
that's true yes interesting okay and when you do offline also like No, we have an zero offline. Zero offline. And you have a partnership channel.
00:55:24
Speaker
There are three methods. You have ah digital distribution, you have offline distribution, you have partnerships. So we don't have any partnerships or offline distribution or anything. It's just digital.
00:55:35
Speaker
Okay. but You want to have partnerships or you have decided that it's not
Consumer Engagement and Free Trials
00:55:41
Speaker
worth it? No, everything is not worth it. ah It's just that when you're selling to your customer directly, the um more did scale of things that you learn from that are great. You have a touch point of customer,
00:56:11
Speaker
There are many benefits of it. Obviously, it's not that happen in some days that we grow in partnerships. But I think at early stages, there are wrong signals from the beginning.
00:56:27
Speaker
Okay. Interesting. What is the typical customer journey? Like they sign up for free content and like what happened? It has constantly been evolving. Before, it was said that every copy of content was free. For the longest time, that was the model. We had 10 episodes in entertainment. We had 2 episodes non-fiction. It was different. Sometimes it's free, sometimes it's free. Sometimes it's free. Sometimes it's free.
00:56:53
Speaker
You try content, listen to free episodes, and when you think like something good, you'll listen to it. And then you buy the full subscription. Till then you have these things for free.
00:57:05
Speaker
Last year, beginning, may when we became large enough, we said that from now on, we are not providing free content and we are not providing ah what you call discounts.
00:57:20
Speaker
So after that, what we did... we started giving free trial instead. You have a limited window of seven days. In that, as much as you want to try, you try.
00:57:31
Speaker
But then you have to pay. And then you are not eligible for a free trial again for X number of months.
00:57:40
Speaker
So, like that. So, today the platform is fully locked like Netflix. ah Okay, interesting. And how do you optimize conversion that people convert after free trial? Yeah, everything is in the content. you go to Netflix, you go to the consumer that you like and watch it.
00:58:06
Speaker
So a typical consumer gives us four tries to find a content which will like
00:58:13
Speaker
ah a four tri me If I'm not able to provide the right content, then that's a problem. If I can provide, then my conversion will get out.
00:58:24
Speaker
So, it's content plus... okay so it's content plus Strong recommendations. You also need to figure out what's going Recommendations is easy. Content is difficult because content... Basically, it's like we think we just keep the right content and things will happen. But it's also that the content in the first couple of episodes is so hooked that it will get worse and worse.
00:58:57
Speaker
Now it's content is very important more than recommendation. Wow. So you're saying the content itself, you have a science around it It's not pure.
00:59:08
Speaker
Yes. obviously There is a science to the content. So what is the science to the but does yeah So basically in this world of mobile first content, uh,
00:59:23
Speaker
the story pacing is much faster than ah typical cinema industry. Your stories move much faster. You have multiple cliffhangers coming every couple a couple of episodes.
00:59:39
Speaker
And
00:59:42
Speaker
because it's a very private consumption that kid you are the only ones looking at the screen. You are the only ones hearing this. The content genres that work here are also slightly different.
00:59:56
Speaker
You see lot of what you say... Taboo. No, no, not taboo.
01:00:08
Speaker
I'm trying to find the right word. You see a lot of fast-paced drama happening here. yeah Revenge eda quickly the revenge earlier kiir that kissyiggalaki and dust with revenge really like eight deep that revenge is one of the deepest, darkest desires.
01:00:24
Speaker
it's a You consume that here. You do not consume that extreme of revenge in cinema. ah Similarly, having mean a, like, getting the girl of your dreams...
01:00:41
Speaker
by doing something grand. Right? Like, small plots. And your story keeps on getting these small plots.
01:00:52
Speaker
ah From revenge to suddenly making a lot of money to and getting and the girl of your dreams to like getting liked by everybody.
01:01:03
Speaker
All the things that you would feel that in one story, why are all things happening? But then you realize that ah this is what people want so got they want an escape from reality yes exactly you got the right words they want the escape from reality interesting what kind of genres are like say different from what you would have expected a there would have been some unexpected findings you would have seen ah so for us basically
01:01:40
Speaker
This whole fast-paced content is something which we didn't anticipate originally. Actually, what's the matter? are biased from our circles, right?
01:01:51
Speaker
And we feel like great stories ah with good messages, slow stories. They work all, but work with anything. Everything that works is very fast-paced, has a lot of extreme revenge or extreme rage to riches. goes in extremes a little bit. Maybe they become a leader, they become a leader.
01:02:19
Speaker
Or, everything in your life has changed everything, everything is left away and left away, money is left away. Or, everything in your life has gained everything. Some extremism stories are more like that. That is one bit that we did not anticipate.
01:02:37
Speaker
In fact, when you look at our stories, they are all like... like Constantly moving in one, like but from one one extreme to another, you suddenly became very powerful. Then you suddenly became very poor. Then something happened and than something else happened. Yes. Rollercoaster rides. Yes.
01:02:58
Speaker
Okay. Okay. and You had told me in our... and like we had a call before this that you also found a lot of consumption more than you expected for like say ah LGBT content and stuff like that not on our platform but on Nevar so Nevar sells a lot of BLGL content in India what is Nevar?
01:03:24
Speaker
Nevar is a Korean company okay They sell a lot of BLGL content. It's work. It works. And BLGL, what's up? Boy love, girl love. It's basically gay stories.
01:03:37
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So that's what I trying to tell you. And they this is consumed by females mostly. Okay. Okay. It's an escape for them to basically find males who are showing emotions to the extent that they want them to show.
01:03:53
Speaker
Because we as Indian males are very bad at doing our jobs of showing emotions properly to our female counterparts. So this is where they find escapes.
01:04:05
Speaker
Okay, interesting. Interesting. So I was going to understand that the world of mobile first is very different. The content is very different. Which is not the case of your Netflix or Spotify. Okay.
01:04:21
Speaker
okay what what You have like some content duration that works and some of those other thumb rules that it should be longer than that. I mean, see, your episodes are small. It will be 10 minutes, 10-13 minutes.
01:04:39
Speaker
the the cap sodoga in a 4-minute episode. And then you have long stories with hundreds of episodes. So yeah. It's similar to Netflix.
01:04:51
Speaker
Not a lot of difference. from that Just smaller episodes and faster moving. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Because the episode is finished, it's a cliffhanger feel.
01:05:05
Speaker
What is the kind of retention you see? Like people buy like say yearly subscription, so what percentage of them renew it? So, man, retention a little more private number. I have sign for the NDA to disclose. But just to tell you, how is consumer love?
01:05:21
Speaker
You are the top 10% of consumers consumption-wise.
01:05:27
Speaker
just to tell you here
01:05:31
Speaker
ah consumer la casea but do so ten percent produce and numerousmor to take consumption rate
01:05:41
Speaker
they consume more than three, actually not even three hours, about four hours in every day. Wow.
01:05:53
Speaker
Okay. So that is the sort of ah consumer love that we see on our platform. Amazing. Amazing. Okay. Okay.
01:06:05
Speaker
So you have now also decided to
Cuckoo FM's Expansion into Video
01:06:08
Speaker
move beyond audio, right? Tell me that journey, like, How did you figure out that you need to move beyond audio? No, so we started a little direction that we will do everything in long run.
01:06:21
Speaker
ah ah we We call ourselves a storytelling platform. So we were telling our stories in audio earlier. Now we have started telling the same stories in video also.
01:06:34
Speaker
So yeah, it's an interesting journey. ah We are taking our good Cuckoo FM stories to now video do also and working with a lot of these video industry guys used to kind of make the that like get these stories to real life.
01:06:54
Speaker
Is that like a hot star competitor then? yeah No, no, not what star competitor. It's like ah vertical video kind of a platform. Cuckoo TV, it is called where you basically you can see it's the fast paced story, low cost production.
01:07:13
Speaker
It's a fast paced story, low cost production with the, what you call very small episodes, three minute episodes. So it's like, say, Instagram reels your TikTok, but in a serialized form.
01:07:27
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Okay. Interesting. the why Why are you taking this bet? What what makes you feel that this will work? what is ah Do you have some data around it and all? Yeah.
01:07:40
Speaker
yeah ah So, they basically, be done mobile-first content. with sacuciion Video bhi hoga, audio bhi hoga, text bhi hoga, tune bhi hoga, sab kuch hoga.
01:07:54
Speaker
ah It is just... And it's not like, right, it is it was not happening earlier, right? Earlier, OTT mein bhi sab kuch ho raha tha. OTT mein you had video also, you had other formats also.
01:08:10
Speaker
So similar thing will happen here. It's just that... ah TikTok is different from Instagram and Netflix is different from JioStar. It's not that the ones that scrolls on Instagram are not watching Netflix and not watching Netflix. Or the ones that don't scroll on TikTok are not watching Netflix.
01:08:31
Speaker
So both the segment of consumption exists. Now on top of real people also want... serialized content in that same format. So that need we are fulfilling. And it's ah already proven concept in other geographies.
01:08:48
Speaker
Okay. ah So your audience so far is not using the screen on. but They're using cuckoo with screen off, right? what what Headphones. So when you're watching the audience, you're watching the video, you're watching the screen on.
01:09:02
Speaker
But you feel like ah the audience will accept this new way of using Kuku? With the screen on and like, I'm sure. Basically, you're competing both together.
01:09:18
Speaker
Both are different use cases. People are doing both the things at different times. Both use cases are different. It's not like you're switching to one another.
01:09:29
Speaker
Hmm. In fact, that's why that app is also different. Oh, it's a separate standalone app. Yes, yes. ah Okay, okay, okay, okay. And that is the same paywall, like two days the free trial and then there's a paywall. Yes, yes.
01:09:46
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay. What has been the traction for that so far? When did you launch that? We launched that mid last year types. And it took some time to for it to kind of ah get into play because obviously content and other things take time catching up.
01:10:07
Speaker
But it's doing well now. Now it's growing rapidly. Okay, okay, okay. So you've spent close to seven years building Cuckoo.
01:10:18
Speaker
ah Tell me about that journey as a founder. You know, were there like hard times in this journey of building Cuckoo? What did you learn from those hard times? And, you know, how have you changed as a founder in these seven years of building Cuckoo?
01:10:33
Speaker
Good point. There's a lot of things. There's a lot of things. So... so When started starting, we were very immature, very logical people.
01:10:50
Speaker
You build some sort of logic in your head and you try to debate every discussion, you debate every idea and you feel that I will go logically thinking in a right place.
01:11:04
Speaker
But then over time, you understand that logic is nothing but
01:11:10
Speaker
logic is based on what you know till today. But you know very less. Yeah, okay. Right, so, this is why logic generally fails. It's very important to do because you... a gut call, like execute and fail and then reverse it, if it doesn't happen.
01:11:32
Speaker
It's more efficient to do the do that than... actually sit and debate that thing for six months. And trying to find more data points before doing something.
01:11:44
Speaker
So what's happening? You'll see, you'll never sit in a big meeting room. You want to propose anything.
01:11:58
Speaker
You'll get to know in a big room in the room. Yeah, true. Right? So you can't be wrong with that. Somebody has to take a gut call.
01:12:09
Speaker
So, it's our journey from being overly logical and discussing people to kind of start making gut calls and say, can they I don't want to explain right now what's going on.
01:12:27
Speaker
Let's do it and then say what's going on not. So, there's a big difference.
01:12:34
Speaker
But this is a luxury of funding, right? If you have funding, then you have the no, no, this not a luxury of funding. To do these experiments. Funding comes with a problem. Because now you have more investors who have to understand that logic.
01:12:47
Speaker
Ah, okay. Funding, the logic issue growing. You have to do it.
01:12:54
Speaker
That is the thing keya basically that this is where most of the great businessmen are differentiated, right? They are very good at taking large bets.
01:13:07
Speaker
I made this thesis in my mind. And it was like that anyone can justify it the past. When Jio had a bet, I had so many people around me. yeah abjabjio bet lieathha whose time i had so many people around me joalli the people who give up the call, I have a calendar invite by a friend who was sitting there and said, I'll closed. Right.
01:13:30
Speaker
Right? It's the largest telco company today. Yeah, yeah. And what's the biggest curse of smart people? sit with a smart person, he'll justify the murder.
01:13:44
Speaker
So, debates are not the way to take any decision. Because logic... is not always accurate. Somebody who is good at a debate will give you great logics.
01:13:55
Speaker
Somebody who is not, will not be able to give. That's why you never have decision. happening puug The decisions have to come from gut calls. And you have to try things to say whether it's a fail or pass and not debate about it.
01:14:08
Speaker
This is the biggest problem.
01:14:11
Speaker
Fascinating. Okay. but they like Was it generally a smooth journey for you or did you have your like near-death experiences also?
01:14:23
Speaker
The first year of our ah year of our monetization. was little bit when I had a tight balance of the bank balance. How much revenue was, how much money was, how much money was, how much money was, how much money was.
01:14:42
Speaker
It was a good fight for every month. And it was very tight in re like It's like that if the team had better, like, for a few months, if the team didn't do a little better, then one or two people would say, obviously, they would take their salaries first, then they would take their core team, then they go down to the next.
01:15:07
Speaker
But there was no doubt. But it was just like a cut-to-cut day.
Sustainability of Business Models
01:15:12
Speaker
you In late 21, it was a good thing. But I remember pushing that button on the
01:15:33
Speaker
So how did you come out of it? um Obviously, it was cut-to-cut journey that... Because the business was good, the situation didn't come. But then we raised some funding also after that.
01:15:46
Speaker
Because we were a money-making business,
01:15:56
Speaker
We were never that. When the whole market was playing game, we started to make revenue. So lost in that situation. Or we were there when other market came.
01:16:08
Speaker
ah so That is why VC dependent, there are two sorts of businesses. VC funded by two. A default alive, a default dead business. So what with default dead business? If you don't have money for VC in the next month, you will be closed.
01:16:25
Speaker
Okay. You have to make sure that you are not a default dead business, you are a default alive business. Fascinating. What are the characteristics scale out then between default dead and default alive? What difference is there?
01:16:39
Speaker
different, generally, there are two differences. One is that fundamentally, there is no revenue in business. If you don't know what happens to other, you don't know what happens to each other. I mean, my expertise is not on it.
01:16:51
Speaker
The other thing is that you have revenue, but you have more growth aspirations and more
01:17:02
Speaker
a big team, big OPEX. You are doing revenue, but you are still doing a large amount of OPEX. So, the default Alive business, if VC funding will not even come, just by cutting some basic growth costs, marketing costs, cut down, basic things, then the revenue itself will sustain itself. For it is not dependent on living in VC.
01:17:31
Speaker
Something like that, and Basic... Gross margin can't cover the gross margin. So, there will be no work there. I mean, if you cover the gross margin plus a decent part of OPEX, then you should be able to do business there.
01:17:49
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Okay. In the Indian content market, Most people are consuming Western apps, right? Like say Instagram, YouTube, these are all Western apps.
01:18:03
Speaker
Why is that? it Why don't we have more Indian apps?
01:18:16
Speaker
content play. So, Instagram, YouTube, all these are platform plays. So, it's not like the Indian apps in the platform plays. There are Indian apps.
01:18:29
Speaker
Share chat mods.
01:18:32
Speaker
Players obviously not they are not making money. But there are platform plays also in India. What's in the plays? Because your majority of the revenue comes from advertisement.
01:18:46
Speaker
And advertisement is a both supply and demand game, right? You need to have advertisers also. You need to give them value also. So there is a monopoly on Meta and Google. 90% of the revenue goes to them, advertisement. So there was no other platform play.
01:19:02
Speaker
But it's not that we can't do it, we will make India. I think that people will be able to build a platform place over there also. And what happened in Korea China? Because government said that they couldn't do it outside, they built their local place. Right. Okay.
01:19:18
Speaker
right okay So one is platform play and the other is like PGC. The other is the content. All Indians are playing in PGC. Netflix is not the largest player. The largest players are who?
01:19:32
Speaker
Geostar, Sony Live, Zee, Prime, Poichoy. Okay.
01:19:40
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay, interesting. Okay, interesting. We talk about Netflix as well. Netflix is very small in India.
01:19:49
Speaker
yeah Okay. Netflix is mostly like a tier one phenomena. Tier one bhi nigh, man. call it keyboard generation phenomena. ah I and you are keyboard generation. The of the people are mobile first generation. They skipped desktop, skipped keyboard,
01:20:08
Speaker
They don't have their laptop or desktop, they have their mobile. They have laptops, but their first internet device was mobile. They don't have Netflix. We said that we were very first on the internet when Western OTTs exist. kega That is why we know Netflix, that's why we fascinated with Netflix.
01:20:28
Speaker
no Okay, okay. So going forward, ah Will your growth expense be largely buying good quality content or will you also continue to spend on like say performance marketing and influencer marketing and all of that? Going forward, definitely we would increase, significantly increase our spending on content.
01:20:48
Speaker
That is the plan. the Today, whatever we are spending on content, wherever we are, we want to go 10x of this content spent very soon.
01:21:03
Speaker
I think this is Content spend is their advertising. but but Because they have all these series that people are talking about, they are becoming their own brand. That's also true.
01:21:18
Speaker
the Mobile first distribution is not that you... I mean, I'm saying that in mobile first, it doesn't work that you made a stranger things of 300 million dollars.
01:21:30
Speaker
So that doesn't work for this industry. Because the amount of content the consumer wants to consume is a lot. So you don't create that sort of content. But yeah, you create good quality, ah like great content at scale, a lot of it.
01:21:45
Speaker
yeah. We would spend a lot on content going forward. A lot. Okay. And you act as a label today also? Yeah. You... Yeah, yeah. Today also we act as a label.
01:21:56
Speaker
Okay. So which means you will procure rights from one place for some material and then give it to a production house to convert it? No, no, no. You commission the entire show from the beginning. Okay.
01:22:07
Speaker
Yeah. Then also you have label. The... Being a label is just about which stage did you enter the content creation of that that content, right? You could still own the rights if you entered after.
01:22:25
Speaker
Like in India, you would see that actually the corncor movie was created by somebody else, but the label is somebody else and the producer, like you came with the producer, distributor is somebody else too.
01:22:38
Speaker
That's all. It doesn't mean that you have to be a part of content creation. It means that you are just an IP owner and you are just a revenue share. Okay. Okay. okay ipo learn for perpetuity You are the primary owner of the IP.
01:22:56
Speaker
How much do you pay out to creators in a year? Or how much revenue are you generating for the creator economy? In we would pay... About my god. So, we were spending little bit.
01:23:15
Speaker
We are spending about 30 crores a year on content. We are spending about 25-30 crores on range. Now, the plan is to go and next of this.
01:23:32
Speaker
Okay. Very soon.
Critique of Product-Centric Mindset
01:23:33
Speaker
300 crores a year you want to spend? Yes. Very soon. Very soon. ah I can see you've raised about, I think, $70 million till date, roughly?
01:23:44
Speaker
Yes. So, what was the a contribution of fundraising in reaching this $150 million? dollars So definitely you need fundraise to operate in content segment because content seems to be a bit expensive.
01:24:00
Speaker
You have to buy content upfront. or Monetization will happen over years. they Basically, you have to create a lot of content to figure out what works. Buying the is not an option. When you buy, then so you can buy the best content and operate.
01:24:13
Speaker
That's not a luxury you have when you enter a new segment. So you have to try out a lot of content to figure out what works and all. There lot of content spent that goes in that. ah But yeah, but I, and it's not like we have used all of our 70 million funding. Our last round of funding is still sitting in our account, not being touched, it's being a big deal.
01:24:40
Speaker
So, so law But I could have honestly tell you, we could have built this business in much lesser money.
01:24:52
Speaker
You took the money because it was available. Yeah. No, no, didn't know in the beginning I had in the case. That waste of money in figuring out. about pesaway story yeah Okay, okay. i So you were saying that money in figuring out, but then there's no way that you would have... Well, today you saying I have figured out, so if I have to build the business again, it will not cost me as much.
01:25:15
Speaker
Yeah, I'm telling you, if only if you keep away from the knowledge of Silicon Valley, you will also make a lot of money. coffee pepperman said What is the knowledge of Silicon Valley specifically? What is wrong?
01:25:28
Speaker
What is it? In the place of the world, our work is the Silicon Valley. Okay. And we you something specific. but like It's controversial. Let's do it. Let's do it. Like...
01:25:52
Speaker
just say ah
01:25:56
Speaker
Product teams come in the very center of the business. hu Yes. That is the biggest mistake any startup can do.
01:26:05
Speaker
Product is there to enable the business. It is not the business.
01:26:12
Speaker
Well, good product wins, right? but like Why do people prefer Zomato? I'll explain something you. I'll explain this to you. We're the one who's in the content. Hmm.
01:26:26
Speaker
How long it spending the app versus how long is it spending on the content? It's bit skewed. Right. If it's over 100 minutes, minutes, 3-4 minutes. Right. But what does Silicon Valley know?
01:26:42
Speaker
deto pencarte app experience cartego themes a charm in spin um right but what does the siliccon valleyan say
01:26:55
Speaker
Product teams. You're more important than your content team. Okay. So you also made that mistake. Yeah. We also made the same mistake. Yeah. We also made that mistake. It's not about team. It's about our mind share. I remember in early days, the entire of senior management meetings would be about product features.
01:27:20
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Okay. Instead of that, they should have been about content. That this content is working, this isn't. We're trying to make content more important in some years. But it was still... and but you know the Now that we are pushing more and more. kibas So this is one example I'm saying.
01:27:40
Speaker
There are tens of such examples that I have. This is very interesting stuff. Even when it comes to... eka but he justing stuff even when it comes to Decision making around
01:27:57
Speaker
consumer behaviors. yeah Consumer behavior how vary, how grow, how build. In the market, everyone has read Facebook papers. Everyone has read Silicon Valley.
01:28:18
Speaker
yeah How to retain users, how to build organic, how to build and Growth funnels like this, blah and blah and blah. I don't know any company in India that has made a company for that.
01:28:32
Speaker
India's distribution methods are different. The engagement is different. Leave it India. The US has different platforms. Now you compare and Valley, we take the knowledge half far away.
01:28:49
Speaker
Out of context. And the whole industry seems to be talking about every every analyst, every founder. And then but that becomes a norm.
01:29:01
Speaker
That's the same thing. And it takes a lot of unlearning to realize that no, all that knowledge was worthy. In reality, consumer behaves like this.
01:29:13
Speaker
Now, if you're going to go to the basic channel, go to the sensor at R.
01:29:20
Speaker
Facebook or any other social media and Netflix. It's
01:29:28
Speaker
very different. But what happens is that we were starting to do that, that we were chasing social media.
01:29:42
Speaker
So that's a I mean, I'm sorry. what What have you learned about consumer behavior? Like you're learning from experience on Indian consumer behavior.
01:29:57
Speaker
Yeah. ah So two things, right? Like one, the distribution is a bit different for different a segments.
01:30:11
Speaker
To the consumer behavior, not India versus US, but Silicon Valley Gyan was mostly available by the large startups, right? Facebook and all these companies which are very high, like which were platform plays.
01:30:25
Speaker
Silicon Valley Gyan is all about platform plays. Yes. We are not a platform play. Right? We are a platform plus content play. Okay. So in businesses is like us, so and Silicon Valley Gyan would be toxic for Netflix also.
01:30:44
Speaker
This is what we didn't realize. were sending him with the So you India difference, ignore it. But yeah, you would find so many articles by so many pipe people in India.
01:31:02
Speaker
ah the cut cannona tiles skills are The people who are making money are not writing articles. The people who are making money are making money. In the US, the people who are making money are making money, they write articles and they will write a lot of knowledge. In India, the people who are making money are making money, they will not write articles or they will not give an interview.
01:31:23
Speaker
Yes, like you are making money. You don't give an interview. That's why am trying to get your knowledge out of knowledge. I don't give it to people. I don't give it to people. I don't give it to people. I give it to co-founder.
01:31:37
Speaker
But that's too low, right? but You'll find most of the content that is available in India is by people who have not built something that large themselves.
01:31:49
Speaker
Because the largest business don't give it much. That is the problem. That's why we have a shortage in India in India.
01:32:01
Speaker
Yeah, so true so true. And I'm hoping that I'm filling this gap by what means of this podcast. So, what did you learn about fundraising?
01:32:12
Speaker
Fundraising,
01:32:27
Speaker
You have a good business, but you need money to grow.
01:32:33
Speaker
you need money to basically reach to that default alive state or need money for PMF. It's different phases of journey, right? You should just prove PMFs. Sometimes a business is built, but it's default alive. Now, the capex is not going to be covered, then you should also have money. Sometimes it's different reasons for growth.
01:32:54
Speaker
But yeah, every time you trade off a pound of flesh for money. Now, a great founder can build all this by diluting very less and raising very limited amount of funds and gi ah build a great business.
01:33:13
Speaker
And if you are making mistakes, every mistake you may make costs you additional money and because of additional money and the additional equity that you dilute. Yes. This is how it should be looked at.
01:33:26
Speaker
But this is not how market looks at this. ah So you're saying that the way to look at it is you have made mistakes. korea yeah This is how you should look at.
Fundraising Success vs. Efficiency
01:33:37
Speaker
But the way market looked at it is that money raised means you have made some success. Right? at This is again...
01:33:51
Speaker
the Silicon Valley problem. but Right. whether Raising money is seen as proof of success, but you're saying raising money is proof of failure or proof of mistakes.
01:34:02
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Phenomenal. Okay.
01:34:07
Speaker
but but I'm not saying it's a proof of mistakes, but I'm saying symptom of it's, hu it's a, it's like how much money you raise is your efficiency.
01:34:20
Speaker
the larger amount of money you have raised the lesser more lesser efficient you were lesser amount of money you raised higher efficiency you achieve play tra the ro sia and nebu a yeah yo tellla but roika aboutta the publicval the the tetoari paka be gnke yeah return on capitalloed rosie yes ah Okay, okay, okay.
01:34:45
Speaker
But still coming to my main question, yeah but it you have raised 70 million total till date. Yes, yes. You know, what made that happen?
01:34:57
Speaker
Was it that you were very good storytellers or was it the business fundamentals or ah was it that the credibility has already been made? So, how do you get the fundraisers in the tell you. And I think that would answer your question.
01:35:13
Speaker
So, the early stage fundraisers, seed all that, founder plus market size. Series comes from...
01:35:26
Speaker
ah founder, market size, plus business ka early win, tumko chahi hota hai. Jab ham ne series rase kya tha, tab tak still non-revenue making companies ke b series hi ha ha karte tha, woh wo zamana tha, down, wala. Then, karen, us time to kya series b, seed hi sab hote tha, non-revenue making companies ke, but thik hai.
01:35:52
Speaker
ah But typically seed is where you basically kind of raise on backs of founders and size. ah Series A, B, me founders, market size plus some business metrics.
01:36:10
Speaker
And then everything is business. It all depends on how good your business is doing.
01:36:19
Speaker
Obviously, still founders, market size, everything will play a huge role. But then your business has to prove those numbers.
01:36:30
Speaker
Then it's not key. You would just do storytelling and things will fall in place. Okay. It's not like people have not done that. People have done that. I've, we all have seen so many companies tank.
01:36:46
Speaker
Right.
01:36:49
Speaker
But, Over there, storytelling was in play. Bad diligencies were in play. But those are corner cases. Typically, after Series A, your business has to kind of prove and grow in order to raise forefends.
01:37:06
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Okay. Interesting. oh My last set of questions is around... Yeah. On that end, we were growing many fold every year.
01:37:16
Speaker
So that made it easy for us. Yeah, from 100,000 in first year to ah you said 75 million. So obviously, there's phenomenal growth. like The 100,000 paid customers to 6 million paid customers, obviously, revenue in first year would have been smaller. Right, right.
01:37:36
Speaker
Right, okay. So ah my last thing I want to explore with you is...
AI in Content Creation
01:37:44
Speaker
You know, will AI help you make content faster, cheaper? and Because like today, lot of text content is now just ai generated. It won't be long before audio content is a AI generated. Video content is AI generated. So what's your take on that?
01:38:01
Speaker
Is AI going to like help you or will it create competition for you? more people can create content cheaply. And why would someone pay for content? AI is a content cheaply, stuff like that. like Like how do you see AI shaping content?
01:38:14
Speaker
the content industry.
01:38:17
Speaker
So AI is a great enabler for content industry.
01:38:23
Speaker
AI's work is very fast. to yeah Today you could do in two weeks what you had used to, what used to take two months to produce.
01:38:36
Speaker
and york like and You're talking of like script ready, you're fast. You're also like, we may but let me go deeper in it and let me explain. So AI is a great helping hand from both tracks, right? Script track and Visual Assets track.
01:38:51
Speaker
have to a show thumbnail, have to make it from AI. You have to make a QA script, you have to make it from AI. You have to make a good title, you have to make it from AI. You have to make a script level, then you have to make from AI. You can do lot of things from AI.
01:39:12
Speaker
ah both on visual asset side and the script side. But AI has a limitation. ai has context length issues.
01:39:24
Speaker
So on AI models, when your context length grows from, let's say, 100 to 200, your cost doesn't go 2x, your cost goes five x Can you explain this for a layman? So, in
01:39:59
Speaker
As you move ahead in the story, and just as your story gets longer, Your cost of AI grows exponentially. So, if you Oh, okay.
01:40:22
Speaker
So, the cost increases exponentially. now, have to do a story from AI, let's say. So AI can create a great Instagram video or a short YouTube video.
01:40:38
Speaker
But a cannot create a 10-hour show.
01:40:43
Speaker
Because if it's increased in AI, it will increase the cost. And if it's not increased, what will it happen? It will forget the first 10 episodes. So that is the problem with AI. But AI...
01:40:58
Speaker
other than that is a great assistant to a content creator. And with AI coming in, the content creator computer is sitting in the computer, the AI is taking help.
01:41:10
Speaker
That person becomes very important.
01:41:15
Speaker
Why is that? Because now all the shortcomings, because earlier, if you had to create two-hour show, you had six, seven people working together and everybody you doing their part, right?
01:41:29
Speaker
Now you have maybe two people doing job of seven people. And all the onus lies on them to extract the best value of out out of this AI. Yeah.
01:41:42
Speaker
the Their sense of taste, their sense of judgment that this is right, this wrong, that is super important. Exactly. Yes. And it is prompting from AI, that is also the person who has to speak.
01:41:56
Speaker
Okay, okay. Interesting. So, do you see this replacing voice actors? Not in near term, in long term it can. Okay.
01:42:09
Speaker
I don't know whether it will be able to or not. Near term not happening. Now what will be said in near is that the emotional prompting is far away. As of now, AI is like a co-pilot for a content creator.
01:42:22
Speaker
It can achieve more with a few people. Not really taking away a job as such. It's just making that person more powerful. It's similar to what happens when it's industrialized and came, right? Like,
01:42:38
Speaker
You needed lesser people in factories. Output is increased. Same thing is happening here. But humans don't need to be used sometimes.
01:42:48
Speaker
But how will this influence your business? Like, I could get custom story made for me using a... Like, now, you know, most AI models have multimodal voice. So, I could tell an AI model that I could make a podcast in this particular period. And we already have seen like notebook element.
01:43:13
Speaker
me Correct. They can make short form content. They can make short form content, but they can make long form. Okay. So long form is the mode for Kuku.
01:43:25
Speaker
Okay. okay but the For our industry, AI is not a direct, what do they call it, full-fledged content creator yet.
01:43:39
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay. Fascinating. ah Let me end with this.
Advice for Entrepreneurs: Building Real Businesses
01:43:43
Speaker
You know, for people who are listening to this show who dream of becoming entrepreneurs, ah what advice do you have for them?
01:43:52
Speaker
Yeah.
01:43:56
Speaker
I'll just say this here. Yeah. Whatever you make it like a dhande or not like a startup. pi ravaman yeah Okay, nice.
01:44:09
Speaker
that's That's the only statement I'll tell. but
01:44:14
Speaker
Right, amazing. um well there Some people who don't understand Hindi, I repeat it. Like, built it like a business and not a startup. I don't know how to explain the dhande and the words my life.
01:44:30
Speaker
So that means like focusing on the real things, right? Like money, how do you make money? Focus on efficiencies.
01:44:41
Speaker
Don't focus on market. may cool no ga but do silicon valley ga at tight naar then again they Don't focus on knowledge, just focus on... Like I say something, that would help them a lot.
01:44:56
Speaker
your business, nobody can know your business better than you.
01:45:03
Speaker
So taking GAN from somebody else will always, always hurt you.
01:45:09
Speaker
You can learn from people, that's okay. But getting influenced hurts the business. It doesn't help your business.
01:45:22
Speaker
Amazing. Thank you so much for your time, Vinod. Thank you Chalo. Thanks for sharing.