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On the Case! Let's Discuss Spider Noir! || Marvel Month
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With time running out for Season 6, three podcasters must band together to discuss one of cinema's greatest triumphs in superhero history: Marvel. But with so many films and television shows under their belt, how much has it held up? Welcome to Marvel Month!
In the finale of Marvel Month, Satsunami takes on the highly anticipated Spider Noir series! But after being introduced to the big screen in 2018's Into the Spider-Verse, how does Nic Cage bring this character to life in live action? Do you prefer colour or black and white? And could this be the best adaptation yet? Grab your fedoras as we head out to solve this case for Marvel Month!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Final Episode of Marvel Month
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello, Pandalurians, and welcome back to the final episode of Marvel Month. My name's Satsunami, and fortunately, I've made it back in one piece from the Martinverse of madness. And to celebrate the end of this wonderful theme month, I will be talking about the one and only Spider-Man property that I'm sure you've all been waiting for. That's right, we're going to be talking about brand new... where a minute lies in black and white.
Spider Noir Announcement and Initial Confusion
00:00:26
Speaker
Oh no.
00:00:26
Speaker
Sigh. Yeah, seeing his brand new day is a few new days away as of recording this, I thought it would be good to address the other spider in the room, that being Sony's Spider Noir, released recently over on Amazon Prime. And I'm not gonna lie, this can confused me a little when it was first announced. And I'm not gonna lie, this one confused me a little when it was first announced.
Satsunami's Spider-Man Origins with Sam Raimi Trilogy
00:00:46
Speaker
As you all know from our Spider-Man Month episodes, the Sam Raimi trilogy was my first introduction into the world of Spider-Man. His endearing cheesiness is what hooked me into learning about the character more, and oh boy did I get a whole plethora of lore thrown my way. But one of the things that always intrigued me was the worlds beyond Peter Parker's traditional take as Spider-Man.
00:01:08
Speaker
And while I generally dislike multiverses as a rule of thumb, every so often you would see a Spider-Man variant that would make you at least a little curious to know more about them, funny enough. While I never played it personally, one of my first exposures to how varied these different Spider-Men could be was with the game's Shattered Dimensions.
00:01:27
Speaker
And while alternate characters like Spider-Man 2099 and Ultimate Spider-Man were cool to see there, there was one that really stuck out like a sore thumb. He was one that looked a less like the colourful web-slinger we knew and loved, and seemed like more of a grittier retelling. And if you've read the title of this episode, then you can tell that it was indeed Spider-Man Noir. If you pull up a picture of him right now in the background, then you can see how truly different he is.
00:01:54
Speaker
Then you can see how truly different he is, sporting a black trench coat, fedora, and sometimes a pistol which, if you know anything about the character, you would know usually that is a big
Spider Noir in Into the Spider-Verse
00:02:04
Speaker
old no-no.
00:02:04
Speaker
But beyond that brief appearance outside of the comics, it wouldn't be in until 2018's Into the Spider-Verse and its subsequent sequel across the Spider-Verse, where we would see the character reintroduced on the big screen with the voice of Nick Cage himself. Don't get me wrong, the character is were really cool to see in action, and it's neat seeing a Spider-Man that isn't either a variation of Peter Parker in modern day or set in the far future. But as I said, When they announced that they would be doing a Spider Noir show, I will admit I was a bit s skeptical.
00:02:35
Speaker
Nick Cage would reprise his role as the character, this time in live action. And while I genuinely love the guy, don't get me wrong, I was really worried that they were going to be leaning into his Cage-isms rather than trying to create something with
Expectations vs Reality of the Spider Noir Show
00:02:48
Speaker
substance.
00:02:48
Speaker
But to my surprise, this show absolutely blew me away with what it produced. Did it have its problems? Well, yeah, there's a few moments here and there, but overall I felt like they absolutely blasted it of the park, and it is insane how they managed to pull this off. Good thing Sony are on a roll with their Spider-Man stuff right now, and they've built up enough goodwill that nothing could possibly charnish their reputation.
Is the Spider Noir Show Worth Watching?
00:03:13
Speaker
PlayStation discs that have happened to When with the PlayStation, oh for f-
00:03:21
Speaker
Anyway, with current controversies aside, the question remains, was this show worth it in the end? Is it a case worth solving? Or should we throw it aside and not give up? Well, you know, get your fedoras and private eye offices ready as we swing into the world of Spider Noir.
00:03:38
Speaker
But first, with some minor spoilers ahead in the episode, we'll be right back after these messages.
Overview of Chatsunami Podcast Topics
00:03:51
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami, a Scottish variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and general interests. Join me, your host, Satsunami, as well as the rest of our Chatsunami team for our takes on these very important pop culture topics. Sir, it's clearly a trap. I accept your page! That happens three times in the film. Every time that general goes, don't do this one thing, he goes, do you know what I'ma do? That's the exact thing.
00:04:18
Speaker
It doesn't well. She had the pointy teeth. What was that about? looked like Bilbo when he wants the ring back. She did, didn't she? I just want the lightsaber one more time. Parasite says, no, you will get back into your office and work. No, says the man in Zoom. your Trousers are for the working man. You're bursting into your hotel room. Honey, we need to go.
00:04:42
Speaker
Leave the kids. You can milk an otage. Oh.
00:04:49
Speaker
That's the worst thing you've ever said on any of the episodes. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out at our website, chattsunami.com, as well as all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. Stay classy and have banana. This has been chattsunami.
00:05:09
Speaker
I'm sorry.
00:05:16
Speaker
First impressions can take only six seconds to make, but if you're neurodivergent, those quick judgments about you can be misleading. Because of most people's ignorance around learning disabilities, people think it means you're intellectually incapable. i'm not rain man. Every autistic person is a rain man. I thought I was talking to people who understood, like, say, an ADHD, but they did not.
00:05:39
Speaker
They freaked out and were like, well, if you've got Tourette's, if it's going to be a problem, then we can just fire you and get someone else. I'm Carolyn Keel, and I host Beyond Six Seconds, a podcast where neurodivergent people share their lives and advocacy.
00:05:53
Speaker
One of my goals is making autism not something that's scary. I really want to help people understand dyspraxia a little bit better. Get the real life of Tourette syndrome out there. Stop thinking we were nothing but a joke.
00:06:08
Speaker
Let's shatter misconceptions and celebrate neurodiversity together. Listen at beyondsixseconds.net or wherever you get your podcasts.
Artistic Choices: Color and Black-and-White Options
00:06:21
Speaker
Of all the podcasts in the world, you just had to tune into mine, didn't you? Well, pull up a seat as we look through the case of Spider Noir. Alright, that's enough of that.
00:06:32
Speaker
As I said, this was a show that definitely blindsided me in terms of how much I enjoyed it. And one of the selling points was that you could decide to watch the show in either of full colour or in black and white, akin to those old pulpy noir fictions of old. I'm just going to say it now, the colour version is gorgeous.
00:06:50
Speaker
It is so vibrant and in-your-face that it makes everything pop. This however is a double-edged sword, as it does attract you towards some of the more... less stellar effects and backdrops.
00:07:01
Speaker
But even then, when things did look a little too clean or like part of a set, it did remind me of the noir serials of the 1930s where you kind of knew it was a set. I don't know if that was their intention to be honest, but fortunately for them it did work in their favour. Now, I can't pretend I'm a technical expert in this field, but I'm guessing the reason for the vibrancy of the colours is because it made certain elements stand out better than the black and white cut While it does look stylistic, I felt as if they slapped a black and white filter over the digital footage and called it a day without giving it that grit it deserved.
00:07:38
Speaker
Look, I'm not going to sip my coffee and judgement at you for watching it in colour or not. What I will say is, if you want an excellent example of how this type of thing can work well, then you should definitely check out the film Godzilla Minus One, which has both a brilliant colour and black and white version.
00:07:53
Speaker
Maybe that's a little unfair because I know the budgets are drastically different for both properties, but honestly, in terms of examples, it is really
Musical Highlights and Standout Scenes
00:08:01
Speaker
cool to see. One more thing that i want to point out as well is the incredible score on the show, especially with the intro Saving Grace by singer Kirby. Literally the definition of don't skip that intro. The same can be said for the lounge singer moments, especially when we're introduced to the femme fatale of the piece Cat Hardy, played by the wonderful legion Lee Jun Lee.
00:08:21
Speaker
Her rendition of Dream a Little Dream is captivating. And much like the main character Ben Reilly himself, I find myself entranced by the vibrant gold and angelic voice on the stage.
00:08:33
Speaker
Oh, and I've just got to point this out quickly, the colour composition in that scene is bloody marvellous. We have the singer Kat bathed in gold, this irresistible siren commanding everyone's attention in the room, while Ben stands with a colder blue colour palette behind him.
00:08:48
Speaker
The contrast of a lost soul, suddenly called to the person before him, two individuals from different worlds intertwined. God, I cannot emphasise how well they did this sequence. Definitely go look up if you don't look up anything else, because to be fair, it is in the first episode.
00:09:04
Speaker
That's probably the perfect place to start talking about the characters.
Character Dynamics: Nick Cage as Ben Reilly
00:09:08
Speaker
Kicking off, we have Nick Cage, who plays Ben Reilly, aka The Spider. Now, something I found interesting was, behind the scenes, Cage noted that his performance was based on 70% of Humphrey Bogart and 30% Bugs Bunny, on account of him having to talk his way out of outlandish situations. Now, I'm no mathematician, so I don't know how he came up with that number, but it is pretty funny to see the comparisons.
00:09:32
Speaker
The other interesting fact that came mac across is while I said I'm glad they weren't doing another Peter Parker, that isn't exactly true. Noir is by all means Peter Parker, but due to the fact he drinks and swears on this show and gets into quite violent scrapes along the way, the showmakers had to change his name to Ben Reilly.
00:09:52
Speaker
As a result, it appears to be a mandate from Marvel to keep this iteration different from what we got in the MCU, and honestly, that is fair because Ben Reilly is nothing like what we've had before in terms of live-action adaptations. I mean, maybe other than the Japanese version, but yeah, that's a whole rabbit hole on its own.
00:10:11
Speaker
This is a more seasoned version of the character, with him leaning more towards his real-life persona, where he runs a detective agency with his assistant, Janet Ruiz, played by Karen Rodriguez. I've got to say that I really loved their interactions, as they played off one another splendidly. Ruiz is more concerned about where the next pay-check is coming from, all the while supporting Riley in his cases. The other character that fills out the trio of heroes is Robbie Roberson, played by Lamorne Morris, who is a freelance investigator doing work for the Daily Bugle. His initial work revolved around him reporting on his friend's exploits as a spider.
00:10:47
Speaker
However, ever since Riley's wife was murdered and he stopped being the spider, the stories about the 1930s web-slinger Drydump And ever since then Robbie has been trying to get back into the good graces of the paper, but the three of them are a core part of this show and play off one another so well to the point that it genuinely got a few chuckles out of me.
00:11:07
Speaker
Before I continue with the characters, I want to point out that this interpretation of the character is a lot more brutal than I thought it would be. Without spoiling too much, there are a fair few graphically violent moments, as well as some body horror later on that wouldn't look out of place in a horror film. Never mind a Spider-Man show. And yet, it's this grittiness that firmly establishes its own identity.
00:11:29
Speaker
It's something that I feel like the show captures perfectly for the most part. A great sense of humour balanced by a gritty reality. While it may stop in for the Cage-isms, and trust me, there are plenty, it makes the serious moments all the more harrowing when you realise some things can't be talked out of.
Character Development and City-Level Stakes
00:11:46
Speaker
I think something that I found refreshing as well is just how low stakes it all felt. Don't get me wrong, Riley is still fighting his fair share of superpowered villains and devious mobsters who won't hesitate to take him out. But the stakes were only limited to the city as far as I recall, minus of course the flashback later on in the series, where we find out how the Others got the powers during experiments conducted during the First World War. Maybe I've just been watching too much MCU content lately, but even with the lower stake films, you always knew that it was going to build up to something bigger eventually.
00:12:19
Speaker
As I said, The stakes are big enough for the audience to be concerned and root for her somewhat anti-hero, but you weren't waiting for a CGI alien to burst through the door at any moment. At least I hope to god that's not where they're taking
Villains and Power Dynamics
00:12:32
Speaker
the character. As for the villains and the rest of the supporting cast, I have rather mixed opinions on this, but it might not be why you think.
00:12:40
Speaker
Serving as Cat Hardy's bodyguard and lover is Flint Markle, played by Jack Houston. I have to admit, I felt somewhat happy to realise immediately who this alter-ego was supposed to be before we were told, but it's cool to see the reveal when the spider and him exchange blows eventually. It's another thing I really liked about this show, that being the power scaling. For example, the spider has an impressive moveset for sure, but he also has been hiding at the bottom of a bottle ever since the death of his wife, and with his age accompanied by his trauma means that he won't be as spry as say someone like Peter or Miles and other properties, or heck even Gwen Stacy. When Riley gets into a scrap with even low-level thugs, you can tell he's not as overpowered as we're used to, with a real threat of him getting shot by a random person. As for when he fights against supervillains, like the aforementioned Sandman, Flint Marco, it feels like two guys going at one another in a street brawl. And you know what? It really works here. Those using their powers lose control, making it all the more dangerous when they decide to go all out, rather than your standard MCU beam blast fight. One person I'd be remiss not to mention as well is Brendan Gleeson as Silvermane. who is of course the primary antagonist of the Spider and, yeah, general mob boss. It was really interesting to see where they were going to take Silvermane's character, but once again, Gleeson is phenomenal in this and brings an air of decorum and menace to every scene he's in.
00:14:08
Speaker
It's interesting because he has such a disdain to those already within his own organisation, yet he closes up to those that he may find useful. The same goes for his relationship with Kat, which feels very possessive, considering he murders any potential suitors of hers while controlling her every move. As a result, it isn't like a typical kick down the doors and fight him to the end. Instead, Riley has to use his wits and savvy to take him down both as a spider and as Ben Riley. It's a really cool dynamic that I think works really well in the context of the show.
00:14:40
Speaker
Even in the early moments we see Silvermane as someone who is not to be crossed, after violently dispatching of another private eye, who tried to extort money out of him in exchange for desirable information on a case. Yeah, probably not a great idea. One thing I also want to quickly touch on is the fact they're not really afraid to mix historical events and racial biases within the telling of the
Historical Narrative and Racial Biases
00:15:04
Speaker
story. We see this primarily through the lens of Robbie's character as an African-American who is at the receiving end of a lot of terrible comments. But while they certainly could have potentially gone further, I feel like it was an important aspect to include, and at least in my point of view they handled it relatively well. Heck, it's even an important plot point later on, when they discover a vital clue to the case in the form of a photo of a mixed race battalion in the front lines of World War I. While Riley points out that this would have been unlikely due to the segregation laws between soldiers, it's this revelation that makes him realise where this photo was taken. It may seem like a small moment, but it's really good that they decided to blend this historical realism with the more fantastical elements of the show, rather than pretending it never happened. Unfortunately I feel as if there are a few negatives that have to draw attention to. Maybe it's just me, but I felt as if the pacing was a bit off, with some of the plot points coming completely out of left field and drastically changing the course of the story. A lot of things in the show definitely do happen due to either poor communication or characters acting a bit more dense than usual in order for the desired outcome. Also, i want to give a shout out to Abraham Popula and Andrew Lewis Cadwell, who play Tombstone Megawatt respectively.
00:16:21
Speaker
While I think both actors did a great job all things considered, the inclusion of the characters in the story were... something. I really liked Tombstone as a character in this, but I'm gonna be honest, I really didn't realise this is who he was supposed to be. As for Megawatt, I genuinely thought that he was supposed to be Shocker or Electro until he announced his name. Kinda liled that there's the three electric powered Spider-Man supervillains out there. Although no one in the comics there's probably a lot more of them out there. Megawatt is a weird one to me that just never clicked. His acting is like a deranged poet, yelling out profound quotes before electrocuting people. You know, that kind of contrast between the sophisticated and the brutal animalism of his acts.
00:17:06
Speaker
And yeah, sure, that's good for him, nice to have a hobby, etc. and all, but I feel like the villains didn't really mesh that well together as a team. Apologies for pulling out an old cliche here, but his Jokerisms really didn't fit in. Silvermane consolidating his power with a group of supervillains was definitely something I could see him doing with Tombstone and Sandman, as there was still a reasonable man behind each persona to deal with. Maybe it was just a commentary on Silvermane's hubris, but it felt really weird that he would take on someone like Megawatt who was hamming it up with his performance. Now, if Megawatt had been his own villain working outside of both the Spider and Silvermane's forces as an anarchistic wildguard, then I could probably... probably get more on board. However, as it stands, I would say he's the more weaker of the villains and at worst just felt like the odd one out. That being said, his final fight was definitely a highlight and they did some quite creative things there.
00:18:03
Speaker
One final point I want to address is Kat's relationship with both Ben and Flint. Kat is immediately billed as this fame fatale who will do anything to get her way and while she flirts with both sides, I never really bought it when her and Flint were meant to be the romantic endgame. If anything, it felt like she had more chemistry with Ben Reilly. And this isn't against the actors themselves. As I said, i thought all the actors did a great job on this show, but maybe it was the direction they were trying to take the character, maybe they wanted you to feel more sympathy towards Ben and Kat. There was definitely something there.
00:18:38
Speaker
Again, not terrible, not the worst i've ever seen, but yeah, just something slightly
Humanity and Personal Struggles in Spider-Man
00:18:42
Speaker
way off. Overall though, is this show worth checking out? Well, I would say yeah, absolutely. While there are some minor issues, from pacing to characterisation here or there, it is phenomenal what they achieved here.
00:18:54
Speaker
If you'd told me that Nicolas Cage would be playing an older Spider-Man detective, past his prime and would be a compelling drama to boot, I would definitely have never believed you. I feel like in terms of cinematography, while it is spectacular, they are writing a love letter to the noir genre in its own terms, rather than trying a faithful replication. Now that may put some folk off for sure, and honestly, I don't blame you. I think with the marketing of a black and white version over the colour one as well, i think with the marketing of a black and white version alongside the colour version, you would think that it would make people believe that they were trying to lean more into that black and white aesthetic. But in all seriousness, it is a genuinely heartfelt story that makes you root for the heroes of this piece. And it's something that I've brought up before, but unlike the recent MCU, they really brought back the humanity to this. But unlike the recent MCU, they've really brought back the humanity of the story back into this. These aren't demigods fighting for the fate of the universe, but instead fighting for their corner of New York City.
00:19:58
Speaker
They aren't invulnerable to taking hits, nor are they above succumbing to their cardinal sins of lust for power as well as others. We root for Ben Reilly as much as we do the Spyder. We also root for his friends Janet and Robbie, who without them he would have never have gotten as far. We also see the same desire as a corruptible force, whether that's Silvermane's desire to control others, Flint Markle's infatuation over Cat Hardy, or heck, even Cat's own need to be in control of her own life while manipulating others around her. minus one or two other exceptions.
Season 2 Considerations and Listener Engagement
00:20:30
Speaker
This feels like a very human take on the Spider-Verse, if you will, and to be honest, I can't wait to see what they do with this next. As of recording this episode, I'm not 100% if they've confirmed whether or not there's going to be a Season 2, but honestly, if they do go for a Season 2, it'll be interesting to see where they take the characters and the story, and yeah, I can't wait to see it. But most importantly, what did you think?
00:20:54
Speaker
Was this just what the superhero genre needed? Or was there one clue missing? Whatever the case, let us know below because we even would love to hear from you. But as always, thank you all so much for listening to our Marvel month. It has been a
Community Support and Patreon Promotion
00:21:08
Speaker
blast.
00:21:08
Speaker
If you would like to check out more of our episodes then you can check us out on our website chatsunami.com as well as all good podcast apps huge shout out to patrons robotic battle toaster ghosty and cryptic 1991 thank you all so so much for the support but if you would like early access to episodes exclusive content commentary tracks all of the goodies of chatsunami then you can check us out our patreon page patreon.com forward slash Chatsunami. This podcast is a prime member of the Poppat Collective. For more information, check us out our Twitter slash X page at Poppat Collect. But until next time, thank you all so, so much for listening. And as always, thank you for listening to another themed month of Chatsunami. Stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated, true believers.