Transcript
Speaker: One of the directors that I used to follow, I used to read, she had like a little article that she would send out in a newsletter.
Speaker: And she talked about after one particular church program, there was a woman who was sobbing afterwards.
Speaker: And so they were talking to her and she was a believer.
Speaker: And they said, what has you so emotional?
Speaker: And she said, the way Mary Magdalene looked at Jesus when he touched her face.
Speaker: A simple moment, not words, not a song, not a big production number, but Jesus touched the face of this actress and the look on her face really ministered to this person.
Speaker: Hello, everybody.
Speaker: Welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: Today, I'm joined by an old friend of mine, Joellen Ming, who I haven't seen in quite some time.
Speaker: But Joellen runs True Gem Productions over in Holland, Michigan.
Speaker: Is it True Gem that you've been doing for 25 years or just in general working in the theater for 25 years?
Speaker: Actually, I should have written over 30 years because I forgot to add True Gem to that experience.
Speaker: After 25 years doing what I was doing, then I formed True Gem.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And True Gem just turned 11.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: in February.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: This year.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you guys are doing a production of Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat right now, right?
Speaker: Yes, we are.
Speaker: It is my favorite show of all time.
Speaker: I love, love, love that show.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: So I'm excited about that one.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: I'm excited to pick your brain about that one because I'm not a huge Joseph fan, but I know just from our interactions, like we come from similar places theologically and caring about our faith.
Speaker: So
Speaker: I'm intrigued to pick your brain there about that and see what you love that about that show.
Speaker: But we'll get to that in a little bit here.
Speaker: First, I always ask a couple questions of guests right at the start, just in relation to their art.
Speaker: So I kind of jumped ahead of this question, but what are the things that you're working on right now artistically?
Speaker: Well, we it's been a busy summer.
Speaker: Just in general, because I'm looking at not retiring, but shifting my load a little bit.
Speaker: I've been really heavily into summer.
Speaker: So this year I took on more kind of the newest sort of my last hurrah.
Speaker: So I just finished a very young children's show called Green Goo, the picky eater musical.
Speaker: It's about a little boy that does not want to try guacamole and he calls it green goo because he doesn't know what it is.
Speaker: Sounds like me.
Speaker: Sounds like a lot of people actually earlier this summer.
Speaker: So our June show was Jungle Book Kids.
Speaker: That was for some of the older, like middle school, early upper elementary.
Speaker: And then lower elementary was green goo.
Speaker: And then, of course, Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.
Speaker: And then I teach a really small camp coming up was just like about three or four people.
Speaker: We have two sessions of it.
Speaker: American Girl Doll Camp where people can bring their American Girl Dolls and we create a skit.
Speaker: and just talk about theater things.
Speaker: And so that's that's my summer.
Speaker: So quite a few projects were going on this year.
Speaker: That's an awesome way to kind of build theater around.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: How often do you do because Joseph is an all ages cast?
Speaker: How often do you do all age shows?
Speaker: The last time we did one was Guys and Dolls and that was five years ago, way before COVID.
Speaker: I have mostly focused in the last couple of years on student theater.
Speaker: And a lot of it has to do with, I work at Avalon School of the Arts and I teach theater classes.
Speaker: And it's so exciting to work with that next generation and watch them change and grow and mature and all the aha moments.
Speaker: It's not that I don't like the all ages, I love the all ages,
Speaker: But to be perfectly frank, it's also a lot of resources, time, money, energy.
Speaker: And so I find that the student productions just have worked better for me in the last couple of years.
Speaker: And there definitely is something because I've done some of the youth stuff at Master Arts leading that.
Speaker: And there is something special about...
Speaker: I don't know, like the formation in that and being able to take the time to be like, I'm not just directing, but we're going to like zero in on you as a performer and as kind of a holistic person.
Speaker: And how can we help grow that?
Speaker: There is something really special about that.
Speaker: One of the things that we really focus on, especially for the the like the middle school to early high school kind of thing we have.
Speaker: We have team competitions and we're really big into team.
Speaker: And that's something that's very important to me as I instruct and coach and direct is that we are a team.
Speaker: And I think that's also a very spiritual concept for people to understand and learn that it isn't just about me.
Speaker: And I think the greatest team ever is the Trinity.
Speaker: You know, you just look at Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and everyone knows their role and respects each other and understands that there's not a hierarchy here.
Speaker: This is a team effort.
Speaker: So that's a huge thing for me that I like to talk about.
Speaker: And also just life skill.
Speaker: How do you hang up your costume?
Speaker: I know that sounds silly, but I'm very picky about costumes get taken care of, props getting taken care of.
Speaker: We have also students who are student leaders and they lead the teams, but also our backstage people are all students and they're all learning and understanding what it's like to take ownership of certain areas.
Speaker: And that's really exciting to me.
Speaker: I love seeing that happen.
Speaker: Yeah, there is a crazy amount of life skills you can learn through theater, I think.
Speaker: Well, just for me, so much of my growth and development happened through community theater and high school theater and learning how to tackle those projects, learning basic things.
Speaker: I remember shocking one of the high school costumers because I knew how to fold my pants properly because I had done it at community theater.
Speaker: And she was like, wow, you actually know how to hang up your pants.
Speaker: I was like, I do.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: My second question that I always ask is how has God been using art in your life in this season?
Speaker: I think some of what God shows me every time I'm doing a show is truly that it doesn't mean.
Speaker: I think hard work is important, you know, and all your research and all of that.
Speaker: But at the end of the day, it's not about me and it's not just about, you know, it's not by might.
Speaker: It's not by power.
Speaker: It's by my spirit.
Speaker: I love Nehemiah just in general, because you just you just think about how
Speaker: God works through the situations.
Speaker: And I, this summer has been just kind of interesting because if it could go wrong, it has.
Speaker: And we're starting to joke about it, the production team and my family and close friends.
Speaker: I'm like, I don't know if you want me around because whenever someone, you know, shows up, something sort of happens.
Speaker: And I think that's God's gentle reminder to me that I really do need to rely on him.
Speaker: And not just to rely on my own strength, but also to know my limits and to know, okay, what's important.
Speaker: And sometimes, John, I need to, because I'm a perfectionist and a control freak.
Speaker: I mean, I've directed you, you know that about me.
Speaker: And just to learn to let things go.
Speaker: And so the last couple of years, I've started to sort of use an analogy.
Speaker: Well, that's a cherry on the top of the sundae.
Speaker: If the cherry doesn't get put on top of the sundae, the sundae still is great.
Speaker: And so understanding, you know, my family, my friends, my health, how I treat my cast, how I treat my helpers might be more important than having the perfect color on Pharaoh's throne.
Speaker: You know, that pink color isn't available.
Speaker: Let's not freak out.
Speaker: So he's been growing me the last like actually maybe two years because, you know, I can get pretty crabby when things don't go my way.
Speaker: And I'm really trying to work on that and also to listen to people that I trust.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He puts people in my life and family, friends, co-production people to really listen and let them speak truth into my life and not to say, oh, I'm the director and I know and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: But I'm 65.
Speaker: I just turned 65 a couple of days ago and I'm not done learning.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, I never thought I never thought when I was in my 30s that I would be able to say that.
Speaker: But God works on us and teaches us.
Speaker: And until until we go to live with him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then I think we're going to learn a whole new new thing, but in a whole different way.
Speaker: Learn a whole different way.
Speaker: But while we're here, I also think that while we're here on Earth,
Speaker: that this is something really special because, you know, he gave us this life.
Speaker: What can we learn?
Speaker: What can we do?
Speaker: This in and of itself is holy.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And yes, I know getting to heaven and, you know, there's something beyond, but that doesn't negate the importance of what we're doing here now.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And to just try to take that seriously and, yeah, learn all we can, grasp it, you know, go for the best, but also know when is it time to dial back a little bit?
Speaker: When is it time to say, it's okay.
Speaker: It's okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And there's definitely a lot of cool crossovers with all those things you were talking about and theater as an art form.
Speaker: It's so collaborative, which is something I love about it that like, like you, you can't just power through and do like your thing.
Speaker: Like you've got to work with somebody else, even if it's just an actor, you know, even if you have no set or lights or anything, you've got to at least work with an actor or with somebody there to help.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And like that temporary piece too.
Speaker: Like there's, there's so many beautiful things that matter in the moment with the theater and with the play that you've produced.
Speaker: And then in two weekends, it gets destroyed and you'll never see it again.
Speaker: It's gone.
Speaker: But it was, it was beautiful in that moment.
Speaker: Yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker: So before we jump to Joseph, I wanted to ask a little bit more just about your story as far as what got you into theater in the first place.
Speaker: What made you want to pursue that artistically?
Speaker: What made you passionate about it?
Speaker: Well, you know, I was just a typical kid who loved playing with, you know, Barbie dolls, you know, the Barbie movies out.
Speaker: I do want to see it.
Speaker: I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker: You know, playing with my dolls and my stuffed animals and stuff and pretending to put on programs.
Speaker: For some reason, I always like to interview my animals.
Speaker: And back then, cassette tape recorders were kind of big.
Speaker: So you had a little microphone and, you know, and then I would try to do voices for them.
Speaker: And my poor cat and my dog, I...
Speaker: tried to dress them up and, you know, do all of that.
Speaker: So I was always interested in that.
Speaker: And from a very early age, but I also was interested in attending plays.
Speaker: I loved going to the theater and I think I was about seven or eight when my aunt and uncle took me to a local high school.
Speaker: production.
Speaker: I believe it was right at Holland High School here in Holland.
Speaker: And it was like Broadway to me.
Speaker: You know, I mean, I just thought it was like, wow.
Speaker: And so it's always something intriguing.
Speaker: And then when I got into high school, I got involved a little bit.
Speaker: I wasn't a total theater, you know, geek, but I did a few things in theater.
Speaker: And but mostly, you know, it was just sort of an amateur side love.
Speaker: And then as I got older, got into community theater.
Speaker: And then sort of a thing started happening in the church and drama came into the church.
Speaker: Remember years ago, talking to Pris McDonald, who was the founder of Master Arts.
Speaker: And she said, drama is a big recyclable art in the church.
Speaker: It just sort of shows up every so often and fades out and it comes back in in a new form.
Speaker: And so I would say about 2530 years ago, that everyone was doing skits in church.
Speaker: Yeah, I sort of got involved there.
Speaker: And then I got involved in church ministry and creative arts.
Speaker: And then the two kind of gelled and
Speaker: The church I was at liked to do large productions as evangelism events.
Speaker: And, and I was like, you know, maybe I'd like to do this as a career, but I didn't know if, you know, that would work.
Speaker: But about, yeah, 11 years ago, God just sort of, you know, opened up the door and I started True Gem Productions.
Speaker: Of course, at the time,
Speaker: I didn't know what it would become.
Speaker: And it's that's the other thing is just trust God.
Speaker: You have the dream, you know, you know, like Joseph had the dream.
Speaker: He didn't know what that meant, you know, what the sheaves of corn and all of that meant.
Speaker: And you can have an idea.
Speaker: But God can take you totally down another path.
Speaker: So just interesting what he's done with the business because it's not necessarily where I thought it was going to end up.
Speaker: But the journey's been terrific.
Speaker: You know, he's so much smarter than I am.
Speaker: It's been a great ride.
Speaker: It's not easy.
Speaker: Certainly has been some difficult moments.
Speaker: But again, just what you can learn and the people.
Speaker: John, the people.
Speaker: I have been blessed incredibly with the people that have come into my life and that I have worked with.
Speaker: It's really, really something to be grateful and thankful for.
Speaker: So I'm very glad that he led me down the true gem path.
Speaker: And I don't know what's, you know, for the future.
Speaker: I do know that he's calling me into a season of a little more resting.
Speaker: Like I said, not complete retirement.
Speaker: But I'm pulling back a little bit.
Speaker: And so I'm anxious to see which fork in the road that he's taking me down.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I was just talking to my wife about that last night.
Speaker: And just like the life I'm living now is not at all the life that I thought I would live when I was in high school.
Speaker: Like I would never have called this.
Speaker: But it is crazy and beautiful how he...
Speaker: directs it just to something that's that is so much better than we could ask or imagine um and it just is if you just take that step and trust that is really beautiful and awesome cool well let's let's chat about joseph uh because that opens it'll open the the week after we post this for everybody listening it opens next week but for us it's like what three or four weeks away now
Speaker: We're about at two and a half.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: You're right up to crunch time.
Speaker: We are in crunch time.
Speaker: Yes, we are definitely in crunch time.
Speaker: Um, but that's the other thing, as, as you know, um, well, I want to say two things about that.
Speaker: Number one, another life skill that theater teaches you is how to manage stress.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But number two, after you've done enough shows, you, you recognize, okay, crunch time is crunch time.
Speaker: It just is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you can either freak out or say, hey, it always comes together.
Speaker: I just have to do whatever I can do to make it happen.
Speaker: But the more I go crazy, I'm going to get sick.
Speaker: I'm going to get stressed.
Speaker: I have to manage it.
Speaker: So yeah, it's crunch time.
Speaker: We open August 16.
Speaker: And we are performing in a venue I absolutely adore because it's just a cool venue.
Speaker: And Joseph is...
Speaker: is a show that doesn't have to be in a typical theater space.
Speaker: So it's a church called Victory Point Ministries.
Speaker: And I kind of became acquainted with them a number of years ago when we did Aladdin Junior there.
Speaker: And they're great to work with.
Speaker: And like I said, the space is just kind of cool to stage things in.
Speaker: I love unconventional spaces.
Speaker: I love big productions on a proscenium stage as well.
Speaker: But most of what True Gem has done is more immersion theater where the actors come into the audience and we don't have large sets.
Speaker: Everything is very minimalist.
Speaker: And it's much more about that actor getting up close and personal to the audience.
Speaker: And so the space is really nice for that.
Speaker: And there's something about that restriction and the unconventions that just forces you to get creative.
Speaker: I feel like it just gets your brain going to do something unique and cool.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: I still remember we did Cotton Patch Gospel at Master Arts and you played Jesus.
Speaker: And I said, I want you to walk all the way up that aisle, all the way up to the lighting booth.
Speaker: And you were quite young then.
Speaker: I said, yep.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And you'd be like, they're going to be right there.
Speaker: I'm like, yep, they're going to be right there.
Speaker: So I really enjoy that.
Speaker: I still remember.
Speaker: I don't know if I ever told you this story.
Speaker: This is a sidetrack.
Speaker: Now I'm going to tell a story.
Speaker: My favorite moment of that, that like unconventional and kind of immersion stuff with the audience.
Speaker: Um, yeah.
Speaker: There was a moment where, because I talk with my hands so much, and I was singing the Love the Lord Your God with All Your Heart, Soul, and Mind bit.
Speaker: And I was talking with my hands, and I just kind of gestured.
Speaker: And this little old woman just looked up and had tears welling up in her eyes and grabbed my hand.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: And I was, I was, I had two reactions.
Speaker: I was like, one, this is the most awkward thing that's ever happened to me on stage in my life.
Speaker: But two, I was like, wow, this is, I'm like a conduit for whatever this, this woman has going on between her and God right now.
Speaker: And that was just remarkable.
Speaker: The way that the, the small intimacy of that space made the audience feel comfortable enough to do that was mind blowing to me.
Speaker: Yeah, a holy, really a holy moment, you know?
Speaker: No, I didn't know that story.
Speaker: The directors that I used to follow, and I'm very embarrassed to say, I don't remember the name, but they wrote a lot of dramas and stuff back, like I said, back in the drama days.
Speaker: So, you know, it was like 20 years ago.
Speaker: But I used to read, she had like a little article that she would send out in a newsletter.
Speaker: And she talked about after one particular church program, there was a woman who was sobbing afterwards.
Speaker: And so they were talking to her and she was a believer.
Speaker: And they said, what has you so emotional?
Speaker: And she said, the way Mary Magdalene looked at Jesus when he touched her face.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: A simple moment, not words, not a song, not a big production number, but Jesus touched the face of this actress and the look on her face really ministered to this person.
Speaker: Peter moments are so powerful and you can't plan for those.
Speaker: That's one of the beautiful things about the calling of an artist is we're just called to reflect and
Speaker: what our experience of God in the world.
Speaker: And then we, all we really can do is offer that up to him and just trust him to do what he wants.
Speaker: And a lot of times we will never know what that does.
Speaker: It's just a mystery, but somehow God is present in that and works through that.
Speaker: And that's, yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker: Do you have a moment from a show where you feel like,
Speaker: Because I've definitely had shows where I've just been like, man, God is just, is present so intensely in this show.
Speaker: Have you ever had a project where you've just felt like, man, the spirit is here and carrying me through and really working?
Speaker: Well, a number of years ago, I was a co-director in Jesus Christ Superstar.
Speaker: And there's always the conflict about the resurrection, right?
Speaker: And so the co-director and I were like...
Speaker: Okay, we want to honor the piece, the way the piece is written, because, you know, that's, you know, honor the work.
Speaker: Yeah, we don't, we don't rewrite things.
Speaker: We don't, yeah, we want to, as Christians, we want to obey the laws and the copyrights and all of that.
Speaker: But what can we do?
Speaker: We staged the curtain call in such a way that it was the resurrection.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: The moment the audience, I mean, the audience just got it.
Speaker: And just the the the energy and the feeling in the room was was really just, oh, my goodness, you know.
Speaker: And so that was just for me a total moment.
Speaker: Another moment was when we did Fiddler on the Roof and the song on a Tevka as they're leaving.
Speaker: And just the feeling of they knew that God would take care of them, but also the struggle.
Speaker: And I feel like, you know, we all have struggles in our lives.
Speaker: And I just felt in that moment, the way the cast handled that song, that anyone that was there could relate.
Speaker: It wasn't just I'm not watching a story.
Speaker: But I have tough things in my life, too.
Speaker: And people often would comment after the show about how that that number spoke to them.
Speaker: So those are just two examples.
Speaker: But I think every show has a moment like that, or maybe a couple of them.
Speaker: But those are two that specifically I remember.
Speaker: Hey friends, I hope you're enjoying today's episode.
Speaker: I just wanted to pause for a moment and let you guys know that if you want to stay up to date on everything that Artists of the Way is doing, the best way you can do that is by signing up for our email newsletter through our website.
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Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: Enjoy the rest of the show.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: I'd love to shift gears now and chat a little bit about Joseph.
Speaker: Because again, I'm not... I think Joseph is fun.
Speaker: But just the way they approach the story isn't necessarily my favorite.
Speaker: But I'm curious from your perspective, if it's your favorite show.
Speaker: Now I feel like I'm coming at this like a debate, which is not my intent.
Speaker: What is it that you love about the show and makes the show special to you?
Speaker: Well, first of all, it is a little silly version of it, and it's certainly a secularized version.
Speaker: All truth is God's truth.
Speaker: And I feel that humor and fun are very disarming.
Speaker: And I feel that the story about the brothers and the change that they go through, I feel is powerful.
Speaker: I think Andrew Lloyd Webber caught that aspect of the brothers knowing that they had to change and they did the wrong thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think all of us as humans have been through a situation like that where, you know, we sinned, but we're hoping we're not going to get found out or we could justify why we did it or whatever.
Speaker: But at some point you come to that absolute moment of confession and I was wrong.
Speaker: And it's the ultimate story of forgiveness.
Speaker: I mean, you look at,
Speaker: you know, Joseph and, you know, the fact that he chose to forgive, he certainly didn't need to do that.
Speaker: In the original, I believe it's in the original Broadway production to there's kind of an interesting little motif that shows up.
Speaker: And that is at the very end, when Jacob comes to Egypt, and Joseph comes to meet him in his chariot of gold in the score, you hear Jesus Christ superstar.
Speaker: Da, da, da, the horns.
Speaker: Da, da, da.
Speaker: And I love it that Joseph is, you know, sort of a harbinger of the Messiah to come.
Speaker: And I think that was interesting that Andrew Lloyd Webber put that in the score.
Speaker: Now, I noticed that it hasn't always made it into some of the other scores because I don't always hear it played.
Speaker: I'm hoping that we can find a way for our trumpet player to fit that in.
Speaker: But the story itself of Joseph, I think, is just such one of those beautiful Old Testament stories.
Speaker: And so I would agree with you.
Speaker: There's places where there's liberties taken with a story.
Speaker: But I also feel that people might...
Speaker: go back and read it.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: In fact, I'm going to encourage, you know, my director's letter, I'm going to encourage them, go back and read it.
Speaker: And something I always, it's just been a tradition with me.
Speaker: I always put conversation starters in my programs.
Speaker: So after a show, people can go out for coffee or if they, you know, talking to their friend, even during intermission.
Speaker: And so we have questions.
Speaker: And so one of the questions is how much did they sell Joseph for?
Speaker: Doesn't come up in the musical.
Speaker: So the answer is found in the Bible.
Speaker: It's 20 shekels of silver.
Speaker: So that's that'd be a conversation starter.
Speaker: You know, how many things are, you know, biblically totally accurate in the story.
Speaker: And so, like I said, I think I think all truth is God's truth.
Speaker: And it gives you a chance to explore the story and think about, hey, why is this story in there?
Speaker: Why is that story in the Bible?
Speaker: It's a powerful story.
Speaker: It really is.
Speaker: And I'm definitely, I'm really excited to see your take on it.
Speaker: And I saw HPA's take on it right before COVID, which was directed by Brad Garnott, who's another, uh,
Speaker: man of God, who's fantastic.
Speaker: And so it does always excite me when people that I know, and I know where their faith comes from and how strong it is, want to tackle a show that can be maybe a little more controversial to some people.
Speaker: I, for example, love Godspell and would love to direct that someday, but I know that's a really controversial one, but I can like understand that viewpoint of like,
Speaker: you can see the truth of God that's in there and the worth of that.
Speaker: And like God in his grace still brings that through.
Speaker: So I'm definitely excited.
Speaker: Shay and I are definitely going to come check that one out.
Speaker: And I'm excited.
Speaker: Is there an element of the production so far as you've been building it that you're getting the most excited about?
Speaker: I think just the singing itself, the music is so fun.
Speaker: And the cast is, we have a cast of very accomplished singers.
Speaker: And so I just love listening.
Speaker: I mean, because there's very little dialogue, like there's maybe five actually spoken sentences in the whole show.
Speaker: So we have a wonderful music director.
Speaker: The person also playing the part of Joseph is the student ensemble director.
Speaker: So he's like the children's director.
Speaker: And then so Rusty Gallus is playing Joseph.
Speaker: And then Holly Israels is our music director.
Speaker: And she she's directed the show before and just is doing wonderful things with our vocals.
Speaker: John Ozing is my assistant director, and he's also my pit conductor.
Speaker: And because he's an accomplished musician himself, you know, that team of Rusty, John and Holly, they're always, you know, rehearsals.
Speaker: I'm like, leave me out of it.
Speaker: You know, once in a while they'll ask something, they'll say, okay, I want it this way.
Speaker: But when it comes to the musicality and everything of it, those three are just, they're just all over it.
Speaker: And all of our actors, anyone with solos, et cetera, is really good.
Speaker: There is a spot...
Speaker: in the show where it's called poor poor Joseph and it can be sung by a camel it can be silly blah blah blah but it's just kind of a little extra solo in there and I'm actually having Reuben the oldest brother sing it because biblically he's the one that he went off
Speaker: And he didn't want them to kill Joseph.
Speaker: And he had second thoughts and came back, but it was too late.
Speaker: And so he does this longing thing where he calls kind of after Joseph, after the Ishmaelites leave.
Speaker: And then his father's chair, which Jacob sits in,
Speaker: Ruben also kind of takes the chair off as if like, oh, you know, look what I've done to my dad.
Speaker: So, you know, some people will notice that stuff.
Speaker: Other people might not notice it.
Speaker: But I am trying to put little pieces in there that that harken to, you know, the actual Bible story.
Speaker: So and I I think that I like the butler and baker.
Speaker: I know I know that's funny, but it was funny when I was little listening to those stories in Sunday school.
Speaker: You know, I grew up on flannel graphs.
Speaker: I'm really showing my age here.
Speaker: I had some of those when I was a kid, too.
Speaker: They were still around a little bit.
Speaker: I just was mesmerized.
Speaker: Oh, we're having flannel graphs today.
Speaker: That was so exciting.
Speaker: And so watching the birds and the butler and baker, I still remember that.
Speaker: And they put the little basket of bread on the flannel graph.
Speaker: And so those Bible stories, they're entertaining.
Speaker: And then you look at in the New Testament, Jesus came in and continued to tell stories.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So yeah, it's story.
Speaker: Joseph, the biggie, the biggie for me, John is story.
Speaker: And it's, it's a great story.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm yeah.
Speaker: I'm really excited to, to check it out.
Speaker: And I mean, you have a fantastic cast from everything that I've seen.
Speaker: I've been hearing great things from Tim.
Speaker: So we're really excited to check it out.
Speaker: I have one more question before I ask my very last question here.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: I'm curious from a director's standpoint, what's unique, do you think, about the way that your faith in God intersects with the role of a director as they guide the vision of the show, as they work with so many people that come in and out of different shows and often have a lot of different things and different emotions going on depending on the show?
Speaker: Is there a way that you feel like
Speaker: your faith or relationship with God intersects uniquely in that way with you as the director leading this show and working with all these people?
Speaker: I frequently have to remind myself, because let's face it, we get frustrated, that everyone is fearfully and wonderfully made.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: That doesn't mean that there aren't times when, you know, relationship struggles happen.
Speaker: Sometimes you have to part ways.
Speaker: Sometimes you have to take a person aside.
Speaker: Sometimes I have to be taken aside.
Speaker: But really, no one gets up in the morning intentionally trying to cause trouble.
Speaker: I don't believe that.
Speaker: I just don't.
Speaker: um but we all have a sinful nature and so i just try to see people you know the way god created them i i don't want to pat myself on the back and say that i succeed all the time right i don't um also i believe it's really important to have a line in the sand okay so you were saying that maybe joseph's not your most favorite show maybe you would never direct it there are things that i will not do
Speaker: And so, like, for example, you know, profanity, there's certain things I will allow in a show.
Speaker: There are other things I just I can't direct that show because of profanity or some other thing in there because I have to know what my line in the sand is.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So it also, I feel that it's important to bring out the truth of a piece.
Speaker: And like I said before, to honor the piece and the story itself, because even if it's not a biblical story, all true again, to me, it's really important that all truth is God's truth.
Speaker: So where's the truth in this?
Speaker: You know, what is the thing?
Speaker: And what is the holy moment?
Speaker: How can I facilitate that happening?
Speaker: Over the years, I've become much less controlling with my actors.
Speaker: I used to say, you know, do this hand gesture.
Speaker: You got to do it this way.
Speaker: I also feel that I need to learn to trust people more and the people that God puts in my path and try to trust and bring out the best in them as opposed to like, oh, I'm modeling the clay and you have to do it exactly like this.
Speaker: No, tell, you know, I want you to kind of inform what we're doing and the production team, too.
Speaker: What do you know?
Speaker: What do you think?
Speaker: What do you think about this?
Speaker: And, you know, sometimes they tell me I don't like what you're doing there at all.
Speaker: And so then I have to think about, well, why am I doing it?
Speaker: And sometimes I stick with it.
Speaker: A lot of times change my mind.
Speaker: And because wise counsel really helps.
Speaker: So I guess that just coming to it, you know, as a person of faith, but definitely I would say, John, probably the biggest is there's just some pieces I will not do.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I totally get that.
Speaker: I remember there's, um,
Speaker: Lowell Arts is doing The Whale, which is the play that the recent Brendan Fraser movie was based on, which my wife and I went and saw and was like an amazingly directed and amazingly performed piece and had a lot of true real moments in it.
Speaker: I was like, man, I would love to tackle a lot of those things.
Speaker: like the subjects that are broached in that play, but just the way that it's handled.
Speaker: I'm like, man, I don't know if, if I feel the Holy spirit, like giving me a complete okay with that.
Speaker: I think there's some times where like, even if it's something you love, you might not be able to 100% be like, you know, cause, cause we as believers, everything that we do is also a testimony to Christ.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: So, yeah, we definitely have to think through how is what I'm doing artistically reflecting back on Christ?
Speaker: Is that reflecting in a good way or in a bad way?
Speaker: And what does that do to my testimony?
Speaker: You know, and I think sometimes that line can be blurry, but knowing where you can put it is definitely helpful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I don't want to tell someone where their line should be.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's between them and God.
Speaker: And, you know, I just have to know where mine is.
Speaker: Yeah, I definitely think because I know my line is different from my wife's line is different from my brother's line is different from Tim's line.
Speaker: You know, like there's a different...
Speaker: layer that we all feel comfortable approaching.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But we just have to trust our own relationship with God to tell us what he's okay with us being involved in and, and putting our work into.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Um, this has been a great conversation.
Speaker: I'm going to start to wrap it to a close.
Speaker: I do have one more question.
Speaker: So I know for me growing up, um,
Speaker: I was always chomping at the bit for more resources as far as the artistic disciplines that I was wanting to try out, but then also that intersection between faith and art.
Speaker: And I think that's just a constantly evolving and growing process.
Speaker: thing to learn about is how do these two things intersect.
Speaker: What are some resources you might recommend people to check out who maybe are either interested in theater or art in general or interested in thinking through the intersection of those two?
Speaker: Before I answer, I just have to tell you in case when you're editing, you see a cat paw touch me on the shoulder.
Speaker: My cat decided to come into the room.
Speaker: Sorry about that.
Speaker: She's sitting next to me anyway.
Speaker: So there's a book.
Speaker: It's old.
Speaker: I'll admit it's old.
Speaker: But Rory Noland is the author and he wrote The Heart of the Artist.
Speaker: And it was written.
Speaker: for a mega church, which is sort of since kind of gone, you know, downhill.
Speaker: And so I'm not going to mention the church, but it was more about a church artist.
Speaker: So people in the band and the drama ministry singers.
Speaker: But I think it applies to any Christian who's in the arts.
Speaker: And it's probably one of the best books I've ever read.
Speaker: And I go back to it every so often.
Speaker: And the one thing that I always remember is he talks about excellence versus perfectionism.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: and that's one of them and also um envy um is in there and um i i just love the book it's also got discussion questions in it uh so that people you can think about it you could journal with it it is available on amazon because before the podcast a couple days ago when i thought i better check up see if this is still in print and i think it's not just in print but i think you can you know get it um
Speaker: yeah get it like you know kindle or whatever and um but anyway i've never found a better book personally and it's a quick read easy read um and then i think there's just there's just a lot of resources out there um i think part of it is do the hard work so it isn't a christian resource but it's um i would recommend that you just read things about your craft
Speaker: because God calls us not just to have art, not just to be artists, but to be the best artists.
Speaker: So when Jesus turned water into wine, it wasn't just wine, it was the best wine.
Speaker: And so I think the secular resources that are out there are great.
Speaker: And then I think if you're in the word, find a devotional.
Speaker: I finally got to the point in my life where I realized I'm not gonna sit and read something an hour or two a day
Speaker: And so I have two devotional things that are sent to me every day on my computer, or I can get it to me on my phone, because it's there and I have to deal with it.
Speaker: And one is I get a verse every day.
Speaker: Bible Gateway sends a verse every day.
Speaker: And then I subscribe to a C.S.
Speaker: Lewis devotional.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Because I think just C.S.
Speaker: Lewis is powerful.
Speaker: And so if you have that in your life, I think it helps to go to a Bible study and all that other stuff, too.
Speaker: But I think you just got to have something that's at least present, especially when you're involved in a show and you're super, super busy.
Speaker: Don't don't give up that word every day, even if it's one verse.
Speaker: I just encourage you to read that one verse a day, you know, and maybe, you know, something else.
Speaker: Sorry, I keep looking at my cat.
Speaker: That's okay.
Speaker: But anyway, and then I think you should just read creative stuff like C.S.
Speaker: Lewis and even Harry Potter stuff because it's so well written and it helps you understand how important it is to help an audience or a reader imagine things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Speaking of Harry Potter, I'm not going to quote it exactly because it's a whole paragraph, but J.K.
Speaker: Rowling talks about the art of backstory.
Speaker: I think that is a thing that all actors really need to work on.
Speaker: Whether you find a book to help you with that or resources to help you with it, you really don't need it because there's some standard questions like, how am I the same as my character?
Speaker: How am I different?
Speaker: I mean, Google nowadays is at our fingertips.
Speaker: Do that hard work, that research.
Speaker: She said that Sirius Black really doesn't have a lot of page time in her books.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You know, you think of him as being a bigger than life character.
Speaker: But really, if you look at how much she wrote about Sirius Black and how many quote unquote scenes he's in is not that much.
Speaker: But she claims she has an entire backstory.
Speaker: And she said it would fill an encyclopedia if she published it.
Speaker: Well, encyclopedia, again, showing my age and she's showing her age.
Speaker: Some people are like, what's that?
Speaker: Again, pre-Google.
Speaker: But it's a book about two to three inches thick.
Speaker: so she's saying i have a whole file on serious black why the readers don't need to know everything in that book but she said i do because i am the one moving the characters across the page and i tell my actors you're the one moving the character across the stage yeah so you better have a backstory because it will show up even if you're in the chorus and have no lines
Speaker: If you have a backstory and you know why you're there and you're in that scene, the audience, it'll come through.
Speaker: I promise you, the audience is going to find you far more believable and the whole show will be better.
Speaker: And so I would say whatever resources you can find to help you do that hard work and develop that character.
Speaker: And then there's wonderful things written about, like even gestures and, you know, because it's not just your backstory, but how does your whole body.
Speaker: I would I would read up a lot on that kind of stuff, especially certain characters.
Speaker: If you're if you're portraying someone.
Speaker: you know, certainly if you're portraying C.S.
Speaker: Lewis, for example, or, you know, the beams are creaking.
Speaker: What's the name of that show?
Speaker: Bonhoeffer.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Beams are creaking.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You better study up on who that person was.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: But yeah.
Speaker: Heart of the artist.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: He nails everything.
Speaker: I mean, I'm like busted every time I read it.
Speaker: Like, yeah, I got to work on that.
Speaker: And then he gives scripture and
Speaker: You know, it's just a good read and a quick read, easy read.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: I haven't heard of that one before, so I will have to check that out as well.
Speaker: If you guys want to check that out with me, that'll be posted on our resources page on our website as well.
Speaker: Joellen, thanks for coming on.
Speaker: It's been really awesome to talk with you, reconnect some.
Speaker: I'm excited to see you at Joseph.
Speaker: It'll be great.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And I'm excited for what you're doing, John.
Speaker: It's been fun to watch.
Speaker: That's one thing I love about Facebook.
Speaker: I mean, they can say negative things about it, but I can keep up with what you're doing.
Speaker: This whole podcast thing is great.
Speaker: Thank you for asking me to be part of it.
Speaker: I really appreciate it.
Speaker: It's been a joy just to talk to you again.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And good luck with all your endeavors and certainly we'll be praying for you as you go forward.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Appreciate that.
Speaker: If you guys are enjoying the podcast as much as Joellen is, like it, subscribe, share it with your friends.
Speaker: That really does help.
Speaker: If you guys have thoughts about anything Joellen and I have talked about or previous episodes have talked about, leave your thoughts in the comments.
Speaker: I would love to read them and engage with you guys in that.
Speaker: Yeah, we just pray that God blesses you all as you continue to...
Speaker: walk through your relationship with Christ and continue to figure out that middle ground of worshiping Him, honoring Him, and being an artist.
Speaker: God bless.
