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Jay Percell says don't be afraid to "shake it up"
150 Plays2 years ago
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaycpercell
Email: jaycpercell@gmail.com
School email: jpercel@ilstu.edu
Articles:
Strategies for Diving into Successful Grading Reform
Resolutions for a New Paradigm: Addressing Common Issues in Standards-Based Grading
Same Old Same Old: The Futility of Traditional Grading in American Schools
Guest survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdQbOHl3-uy2eX_TAoIZcmvb-Zj30YTJj6p4Zrpvo0sZ6Va4Q/viewform?usp=sf_link
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Transcript
Introduction to Learner Centered Spaces
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Learner Centered Spaces podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning, sponsored by Mastery Portfolio, hosted by Star Saxton, Emma Chapeta, and Crystal Frommer. In each episode, we will bring you engaging conversations with a wide variety of educators, both in and out of the classroom.
Target Audience: Educators
00:00:27
Speaker
This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces for their students, schools and districts, or education at large. The learner-centered spaces podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network. Get ready to be inspired as we dive right into the conversation with today's guest.
Guest Introduction: Jay Purcell
00:00:55
Speaker
Jay Purcell is an associate professor in the School of Teaching and Learning at Illinois State University. He teaches literacy and technology integration across the secondary curriculum and serves as the faculty liaison for the ISU Secondary Professional Development School. His research interests include assessment and grading practices, educational technology, and digital literacy. Please welcome Dr. Purcell to today's show.
00:01:25
Speaker
Good morning, Jenny. We're so excited to have you on today.
Jay Purcell's Educational Philosophy
00:01:29
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your role, your location, something about your journey, or some interesting facts? Hi Star, good morning. Yes, fabulous to be with you. Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, currently I'm an associate professor at Illinois State University. I'm in the School of Teaching and Learning, and I teach secondary education candidates.
00:01:52
Speaker
All across the secondary curriculum, all disciplines, English, business, dance, health, all of them. And it's wonderful being able to sort of teach future teachers, give them a bit of my own journey and experience having been a high school teacher in the classroom for over a decade as an English teacher.
00:02:14
Speaker
A bit about my journey, I guess I consider myself an alternative grader. I'm big into alternative assessment and I model that for my teacher candidates that I'm instructing. I guess an interesting fact about me is that I'm a return Peace Corps volunteer.
00:02:38
Speaker
And taught overseas, you know, before I even started teaching in the classroom here stateside. But I think that that kind of, that's always sort of like the default interesting fact that I use. But I think that that sort of set me on a trajectory that was just sort of different, I suppose, than everyone else around me as I was going through teaching and even onto where
Emma Highlights Jay's Unique Perspective
00:03:00
Speaker
I am now. So I always share that with my students as well.
00:03:02
Speaker
It's sort of like my origin for instruction being outside of the country, outside of the culture that I grew up in, just sort of set me on a different track, I think, and led me to where I am now.
00:03:13
Speaker
Thanks, Jay. This is Emma here. It's so inspiring to hear about your wide variety of experiences in education. And you definitely do have a different perspective than a lot of the guests that we've had on here before. So we're really looking forward to hearing more from you.
Defining Learner-Centered Environments
00:03:28
Speaker
So my first question is, what does a learner-centered space look like, feel like, sound like to you? Yeah, that's a great question. I think that as I think back to my time in the classroom, specifically in high schools,
00:03:42
Speaker
I always liked to sort of have that buzz, sort of like a hum of activity going on. Those moments where I sort of came to and realized like, wow, everyone is busy at work, everyone is hard at work. There's real learning happening. I think those were sort of like clairvoyant moments for me in the classroom.
00:04:04
Speaker
But as I've been pondering sort of learning centered environments, the word that keeps coming back to me, and I think it's a little cliche, but I want to use it anyway, is just dynamic. And not dynamic in the sense that it's like, you know, supercharged and explosive or anything like that, but dynamic in that it's like multifaceted, where I think if you were to walk into a,
00:04:28
Speaker
an environment or a learning environment, a classroom and say, wow, this is really learner centered. You're going to see lots of different types of activities going on. You know, it won't just be that everyone is engaged in the same thing. They're not all just sitting there writing or sitting there reading.
00:04:43
Speaker
But everyone's probably doing something different. Maybe there's a pocket of students who are writing on an essay, but there's a pocket of students who are collaborating, and there's a pocket of students that are engaged in some other portion of work that they need to do. And I think that's how you know it's going to be a truly learner-centered environment, is if the learners are the ones who are
00:05:04
Speaker
engaged in the business of the learning rather than just sort of like following along per guided instructions. But they're really the ones that are taking the charge and taking the focus. Thank you for that. This is Crystal here as an international school educator. I've also lived abroad.
Impact of Peace Corps Experience
00:05:27
Speaker
Can you tell us like where were you stationed in the Peace Corps and
00:05:31
Speaker
Did that shape your view of a learner centered space today that you have today? Yeah. Um, well, brace yourself. Uh, but I was stationed on the Island of St. Lucia in, uh, the West Indies. Um, and so of course it was gorgeous. Um, but also not without challenge. Um, and.
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that really that experience for me, and it was the British education system that I was teaching in, which I was not schooled in myself, but I guess, I don't know if it necessarily provided really great examples of learning center environments that I could draw upon necessarily, but it sort of shattered all of my previous notions of what school was like and what priorities were important, I guess, in school. And it really caused me
00:06:31
Speaker
important the readings that we're doing or is important the pace or is it like important whether they're wearing open-toed shoes to school or not or whether they're wearing shoes at all to school or not you know like those those you know sort of like we're all it just kind of like completely changed my my outlook on everything so so I guess yes and no like no I can't honestly say that ah yes I saw really great examples of learner-centered environments per se but it did sort of break down
00:06:53
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to really call into question like, what's important here?
00:06:59
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all of my previously held notions about school, about learning. So I don't mean to ride the fence. I always get on my students about whatever you do, don't ride the fence. Here I am riding the fence. So hypocritical of me. Sorry. Jay, I was wondering, this is Star again. Yeah.
Cultural Perspectives on Grading
00:07:19
Speaker
culturally with the different, through the Peace Corps or through your international experiences, like are the different cultures you've come in contact with, have they impacted the way that you see grading specifically? Because I know that when I was in South Korea, a lot of the pushback that I got when I was speaking to university professors there were that parents in that culture,
00:07:44
Speaker
were really reliant on regular testing assessment data and also on the numbers. So I'm just curious, like culturally in the spaces you've been, what role did grades play?
00:08:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's probably a lot of cultural differences between Korea and the students growing up on the islands in the West Indies. But in a lot of ways, their grades were make or break, especially from an early age. Now, being a Peace Corps volunteer, I sort of taught the students that had not passed common entrance exams to propel them into secondary schools and higher levels of academic pursuit.
00:08:29
Speaker
Which is one thing I mean it sort of boggled my mind that at age 11 They take a test which determines the rest of their academic lives, and that's it. You know I mean there were there were no second chances beyond 13 and Which is right sort of like where I picked up my students So so beyond that
00:08:49
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like their motivation for grades where it was very low. I mean, I think that they were trying to obtain marks just because that's kind of what you did at school. But for those students who had passed their common entrance exams and moved on to secondary schools and were possibly headed for university, I mean, like maybe sort of like the parents that you were encountering in South Korea, they, I mean, it was everything for them. It was literally make or break.
00:09:18
Speaker
That's so interesting to think about how different countries assess kids and determine their paths at such a young age and it differs all over the world. So coming back to what you said earlier about in your university class, you said you're an alternative grader.
No Points Grading System Explained
00:09:38
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How does assessment look like in your university class and how do you teach your students about assessment when they go off to have their own classrooms?
00:09:47
Speaker
Oh, great question. Well, I mean, I, I, I sort of feel like that is my, like the touchstone of my mission is to model an alternative grading system, like something beyond just the standard A through F 92 hundreds and a, which so many of them are so in just, it's so ingrained in them. It's difficult for them to break out of it. Although I feel like we are seeing the crest of a wave.
00:10:16
Speaker
of students arriving to university now who have had experience in standards-based classrooms. So some of them do have some experiences in that. Some of those experiences that they're carrying into it are not always the most positive, especially when they've had teachers who either
00:10:32
Speaker
didn't understand standards-based grading or struggled to understand it or were sort of forced to do it against their will. Those students coming to us really have sort of negative perspectives regarding standards-based grading or any alternative grading. But of course, when I was in the high school classroom, I sort of
00:10:50
Speaker
fashioned no points grading system, which I guess has some similarities to standards-based grading in that it's detached from the traditional grading system. It's detached from points and really like the quality of work or the quality of the assignment
00:11:09
Speaker
multiple chances at revision to try and make the work the best it could possibly be was sort of prioritized in my classrooms. And so I try and translate that as much as I can to the university level. It doesn't always translate apples to apples per se, but I try and make sure that my work, the work my teacher candidates are doing is authentic, that it's things that they're going to be able to use in practice with their own students.
00:11:37
Speaker
that they're creating a bunch of products for their own work, for their own teaching that they will do someday rather than just sort of like moving through an assignments and checking things out because that's what they have to do. And so I try and model for them
00:11:57
Speaker
a grading system that is going to support that and that's going to put the onus on the quality of the work or put the onus on ideally here to take it back to learner center environments. If you can get your grading system to put the onus on student learning as opposed to just earning a grade, that's where you're going to really make a difference. And I guess I find it
00:12:24
Speaker
challenging, maybe somewhat troubling when there's some of my students or some of my teacher candidates or some teachers in the field that I liaison with who can't differentiate between the two. You know what I mean? Where earning a grade and the learning in the classroom are sort of one and the same thing, then that's problematic to me. And if nothing else, my goal as I see it is to sort of teach my
00:12:50
Speaker
future teachers, my teacher candidates that are moving through our program, that there are differences between making a classroom that's learner-centric and learner-focused versus just a traditional points-based classroom that they've always known where students are accumulating capital and trying to earn their grades. Those are very different things.
00:13:16
Speaker
So this is Star again, Jay.
Advice on Embracing Change
00:13:18
Speaker
To that end, what tips and your advice would you give either, you know, pre-service teachers going into the classroom or folks who have been around a while, our listeners,
00:13:33
Speaker
to create the spaces that you want your kids, like, you know, you just went through all the things that kids need to know and understand to be able to do grading a different way and how assessment should be. What tips would you give? And I'm going to also throw in a little extra here because you are at the college level. And I know that the ungrading stuff that goes on, part of what gets met with challenges at the secondary level is that higher ed
00:14:02
Speaker
isn't friendly toward these alternative grading practices. So if you could speak a little bit to that as well from the higher ed perspective and your experience as well as the tips and advice you would give our listeners. Yeah, great follow-ups. Tips and advice. I guess hearing you ask that question and the thing that popped into my head first is don't be afraid to shake it up.
00:14:32
Speaker
If I could offer one tip to either current teachers or, you know, my poor teacher candidates, they have to endure me for an entire semester or sometimes multiple semesters, having this drilled into their head, like, don't be afraid to shake it up. Because, you know, that's tough to do. And I, it's always better if, you know, you have a colleague who's going through it with you, willing to take on that challenge of sort of,
00:15:03
Speaker
just cleaving away from the traditional, which is difficult to do, especially if you're in very traditional-oriented schooling environments. So it's always better in collaboration. Don't be afraid to shake things up. But then also, it's all got to come back to what you believe is best for students and their own learning practices. It has to be philosophically
00:15:31
Speaker
authentic. You can't just be like making some change in your grading system because it's the newest wave or, you know, my principal told me we're doing standards based grading. So now I guess I have to like that's, that's never, I think, in my humble opinion, a recipe for success, but rather there has to be some sort of philosophical impetus
00:15:51
Speaker
that you believe is best about students learning in classroom. And that's what your grades or your grading systems in your classroom and your assessments for that matter need to be based on. And as long as it's philosophically sound to who you are as a teacher and who your students are as learners, then I think you have every leg to stand on. You have solid foundation. And so that's when I can really double down
00:16:20
Speaker
and say, hey, don't be afraid to shake it up. Um, as for your higher ed question, uh, yeah, I know I think that that is one problematic, just kind of across the board to, I think it's, I think it's something that's sort of like low hanging fruit, or I think that that's again, just tradition kind of like lulling us to sleep and saying, oh, well, colleges won't accept this or.
00:16:46
Speaker
Um, you know, we need traditional gradings just because like, no, no, no, because I think that in, in my perspective, at least like universities are also beginning to change. Um, I mean, just looking at the whole landscape of colleges and universities and, you know, what students are choosing to do post secondary graduation, like that's influx. So I think universities are not.
Adapting to Alternative Grading Methods
00:17:15
Speaker
completely resistant to change. And I think that the way that we being higher education institutions are beginning to look at students and accept students are much more accommodating of standards-based graded report cards or alternative types of grading systems. I know that a lot of institutions are relaxing
00:17:39
Speaker
Standards standardized testing requirements, you know, some of them are getting rid of them all together. So I think that there is room and there is space for either that ungraded movement or, you know, especially if you have a standard space.
00:17:57
Speaker
grading or a competency based mastery portfolio where you can clearly articulate students strengths and students areas that need further development. Like if you can hand that to a university, I mean, I just, I just have to believe that that information is going to be infinitely more valuable than just saying, Oh look, you know, they have a 3.25 GPA.
00:18:23
Speaker
But that doesn't tell us anything about specific strengths or specific areas that are in need of development for a particular student where knowing that information, I mean, we, again, being higher education institutions, I don't know why I'm lumping myself in with all of that scope across, but we could put them in a much, we could get them enrolled in the classes that will best suit their individual needs much more quickly.
00:18:52
Speaker
You know, and I think that that's going to be a much more efficient, effective way to go about it rather than having them, you know, sit through a class that they don't really need or taking some class, attempting it that's way above their level, you know, and failing it and then having to go back and, you know, spend money all over again. So, so I think that there's definitely room for some of those new types of grading, new types of assessments as students are transitioning into college and university settings.
00:19:22
Speaker
that hold real promise, not just that they're willing to accept it, but actually can shed more light onto individual learners' strengths and areas for further development.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much. I think it's so important that we realize that students don't fundamentally change from primary and secondary school to when they're in higher ed. And so the things that are best for them when they're in high school are still going to be best for them when they're in college. So we definitely want to be giving them that feedback that's super detailed, like you were saying. I also loved what you said about teachers being their best selves when they are authentic to their own teaching philosophy. I think that's super important.
00:20:07
Speaker
I appreciate that you brought that out in your tips.
Influences on Jay's Career
00:20:10
Speaker
Um, so my last question is, do you want to shout out anybody in the community that deserves more recognition for promoting learner center spaces? Wow. Well, I probably can't shout out the host. Um, star has done so much, I think, and continues to do so much. I'm just thrilled to be on here. Um, so it'd be star for sure. Uh, but in just my own journey, uh, Dr. Lance Huffman,
00:20:34
Speaker
was in the classroom with me when I talked about, you know, having a colleague go through it. When I first designed my own no points grading system, it was really our own no points grading system because Lance was with me and kind of like went through all of those learning pains with me and is now a PhD in his own right and a superintendent in doing wildly successful things. So look him up, Dr. Lance Huffman, Dr. Robin Seglum,
00:21:03
Speaker
My mentor in higher education, she also was an alternative grader and really encouraged me to pursue that as a research interest. Especially at the time that I was doing my doctoral work, I was like, well, do I just choose something that's interesting to me or do I choose something that's so passionate that it's going to keep me awake at night? These are the things that I could talk to
00:21:31
Speaker
anyone about all day long. Um, and she encouraged me to go with that. And so of course, for me, that's grading an assessment. Lucky everyone else who gets to talk to me, but, uh, yeah, Dr. Robin segment, one of my mentors. Fantastic. Where could our listeners find you on social media or online or reach out to you for with questions? Uh, yeah, I'm at JC Purcell on Twitter and, um,
00:22:01
Speaker
I don't know, I'm on all of them, but that's probably the easiest, fastest way. My eulid, or just email through ISU, J-P-E-R-C-E-L, at illsdo.edu to find me there or just look me up online.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:22:19
Speaker
This has been so helpful for our listeners, Kaye through Higher Ed, who want to lean toward learner-centered spaces. So thank you so much for your time today, Jaye.
00:22:32
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. It was all my pleasure. Thank you for learning with us today. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. If you'd like any additional information from the show, check out the show notes. Learn more about mastery portfolio and how we support schools at masteryportfolio.com. You can follow us on Twitter at mastery for all and on LinkedIn on our mastery portfolio page.
00:23:03
Speaker
We'd love for you to engage with us. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or know someone who would be an inspiring guest, please fill out the survey found in the show notes. And we'd love your feedback. Please write a review on your favorite podcasting app.