Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Player Crafting
23 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Tabletop Tune Up, Mark and Ben talk about player-crafted items. Crafting is a part of many RPGs, but it's not often discussed in relation to the party's advancement or storytelling. This week we discuss a number of factors to think about when considering what kinds of items your players might craft. We consider the inputs necessary (time and materials) and how that can generate great stories, and we also talk about how to strike a balance between items that are overpowered (and unbalancing for your game) or underpowered (and hence not worth players' putting in the work). Join us for a fascinating conversation about how crafting can make your game richer and more engaging for your players' craftspeople.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Potion-Making Class
00:00:04
Speaker
will be no foolish wand-waving or silly incantations in this class. As such, I don't expect many of you to appreciate the subtle science and exact art that is potion-making. However, for those select few who possess the predisposition...
00:00:29
Speaker
I can teach you how to bewitch the mind and ensnare the senses. I can tell you how to bottle fame, brew glory, and even put a stopper in death.
Excitement for Gen Con and Episode Introduction
00:01:01
Speaker
Level up your fun.
00:01:13
Speaker
Tune up, we'll show you how it's done.
00:01:26
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome back. It is time for another episode of Tabletop Tune Up. And boy, I've been looking forward to this one. I'm joined today by my co-host and my co-crafter of this podcast, Mark Lehman. How are you doing, Mark?
00:01:39
Speaker
I'm doing good. How you been? I'm good.
00:01:43
Speaker
I'm actually, this is going to come out after I'm back from Gen Con. So I'm It is in our next episode. I'll talk a little bit more about what we saw there and how that went. But I hope if any of you in our listening audience went, you had a great time.
00:01:57
Speaker
And maybe we'll see there if we go in the future. So jealous. I really wish I could have gone to Gen Con this year. Just not in the place. Sometimes the stars do not align. No, no, they don't.
00:02:10
Speaker
I'll see if I can find some dice to pick up for you.
00:02:13
Speaker
I still have enough of my last adventure at Gen Con. I don't turn down dice though. That's true.
Complexity of Crafting in D&D
00:02:20
Speaker
Well, everybody, you know what we're going do? We're going to about crafting today. so Yeah. This was something that was kind of inspired because, Mark, we've been looking at some different house rules for this new game you're running, and crafting can be kind of a slippery thing.
00:02:33
Speaker
You guys, we're going to be talking about this, I think, largely in D&D terms today. But I think it's interesting because crafting has a potential to be really kind of tough to balance.
00:02:45
Speaker
And so today we'll talk about why crafting is fun or interesting or valuable. We'll talk about what it contributes to your players. And then we'll talk about some of the stuff to think about when you're thinking about how to balance it so that it doesn't become either kind of overwhelming relative to the players given powers as they go through the game or kind of underwhelming. um You know, players aren't going to bother if frankly they feel like they've got to put in all kinds of time and they have really marginal effects.
00:03:14
Speaker
So Both of those are things we want to avoid. Mark, where should we
Importance of Unique Items in Character Story
00:03:18
Speaker
start here? Why do we why do we like crafting? you're You're an old school crafting guy. Yeah. um Yeah, I do like crafting a lot.
00:03:26
Speaker
i think it's a lot of fun. It can add ah an element to the game. It allows players to have something that's very unique and personal to them. Generally, they're the drivers of the craft. They're the ones coming up with the ideas.
00:03:40
Speaker
I mean, all all that being said, as a game master, I do like to create a lot of my own custom items and throw them into the game. So the players have something unique, but yeah they're not easy to do, Ben. like No, what i will say I want to really narrow in here, right? So when we think about crafting, i'm let's talk about two things. One, let's clarify, we're not just talking about items.
00:04:03
Speaker
We did a whole podcast on items. We want items to have their own. history and narrative and all those kinds of things that need to contribute to story and character. But then again, Ben, you're crafting an item. So it does need to have all those things. Yeah, no, no, that's right. It does. We've got to have something that meets the conditions for a good item at the end of the day. But this is not something that's just handed to the players. This is something that they're going to build in most cases. We're going to contribute to, yeah.
00:04:26
Speaker
That's right. So first of all, um let's make sure we're clear on what kinds of things we're talking about when we're crafting. Mark, what kinds
Evolution of Crafting Rules in D&D
00:04:32
Speaker
of things do people craft? I mean, it could be ah swords, armor, it could be potions, it could be, you know, poisons, it could be all sorts of stuff.
00:04:43
Speaker
Like, you look at the tool proficiencies in Dungeons & Dragons, those are all made to create things, you know, most of them. So, yeah you know, all those things could be potential items that players may want to build and incorporate into their games.
00:05:01
Speaker
Now, Crafting rules in D and d are, have been all over the map historically. And I think one of the things I noticed about fifth edition, and I'm talking about the 2014 rules in the 2024 rules, I think it got a little better, but the idea is it still takes a long time in D and d ah rules is written to like craft things. So is, has it always been like that? Was it easier in earlier editions?
00:05:26
Speaker
The only addition I would say crafting was fairly easy in was 3.5. Okay. okay um And the reason why is because they monetized what the cost was for these abilities you could get on weapons.
00:05:42
Speaker
And they had them all listed out like these are what you could get. So if you have a plus one sword, you know, it costs sword cost plus X. Yep. And if you wanted um enhanced sharpness on it, they had a cost for that.
00:05:56
Speaker
So just by doing that, it allowed you to kind of easily do that for crafting. You want to do this, this is what it's going to cost. Now, one of the things I'm kind of having a hard time with in the 5E rules is written, which is why think a lot of our discussion here today is going to go off on like homebrew rules and things like that is because it takes a lot of time too, right? Like when you're an adventurer, you're on the road, you're going out and running around in dungeons and exploring the map and all that kind of stuff, you don't have like a blacksmith's forge with you all the time. You can't do eight hours of work for weeks and weeks and weeks, unless you're basically doing it like between adventures. And then you're like, all right guys, I need about like a three month break, you know?
00:06:38
Speaker
Well, honestly, though, Ben, in a story with you're running, that could be a ah possibility. There could be gaps in a story where you're like, your characters are going to have three months of downtime.
00:06:50
Speaker
Find something to do. So, like, that's all up to the GM. Let's not
Maintaining Game Balance in Crafting
00:06:54
Speaker
worry about the time it takes in-game because that's for the table to work out. Let's think about, like, the crafting and why...
00:07:03
Speaker
It's the pitfalls of it because there are some major pitfalls you could fall into with having items crafted that go astray. Yeah, i we're going to talk about that. i i i just want I'm going to hang a little flag on this, you guys, is that if your players are expecting to be able to craft stuff on the go, and for some of them, maybe it's not for a sword, but like potions or other things, if they take a long time to make, you're not going to see them make too many of those things if if the cost is too high time-wise.
00:07:32
Speaker
And also, like because of how difficult crafting is, it might be something that you want to reserve and let your players know, like I can't do this every week.
00:07:43
Speaker
like let's pick our Let's pick our moments. Let's pick our times. Interesting. I suppose I'm thinking about a lot of occasions where somebody's like, okay, it's time for a long rest. Everybody kind of beds down for the night and everybody's thinking about what they do. Sleep is only part of what you do.
00:07:57
Speaker
and a long rest ah or in the kind of the overnight, i'm I'm guessing other games have their versions of this, right? But I'm assuming that somebody is putting in an hour or two of crafting time too, if they've got something they're working on.
00:08:09
Speaker
Yeah. and And let's face it, not all crafts take the same amount of time, you know, making some arrowheads may take a lot less time than making pseudo armor. Right. Yeah.
00:08:20
Speaker
Presumably. You know, potion making, I don't know. ah Potion making probably doesn't seem like it would take an exorbitant amount of time. um Yeah. so just think about the time constraints for that craft.
00:08:34
Speaker
And, you know, if it's potions and somebody wants to make a lot of them, just think about what you're comfortable with. You know, what do you want to include in your game? Yeah. Yeah. So let's get to that point that you wanted to talk about, about like kind of how powerful they are and balance and things like that. I mean, we've been talking about the inputs of time and cost.
00:08:52
Speaker
And so that's one way to, i think, find the balance of how often they can get these items or how powerful these items can be because you can have really costly ingredients or they could take a long time to do.
00:09:03
Speaker
So Mark, talk about a little bit about like how powerful should a crafted item be? I mean, is this going to be as good or better than anything that somebody might come across. It's in a loop pile in a dragon's layer or.
00:09:17
Speaker
it should be appropriate for the level of that character. Okay. I mean, let's face it. um You, you don't want to unbalance your game. And I will tell you, Ben,
00:09:30
Speaker
100% of the time, players will come out with an item that's overpowered. So if players are left to craft their own stuff, they're always kind of craft a little bit higher than they probably should. 100% the time.
00:09:44
Speaker
So as a GM, you're fine. Don't even start this project if you're a GM who... If you're a pushover, don't do it because they're going to run right over you with this item.
00:09:57
Speaker
You have to be thoughtful about the item and you have to be thoughtful about the balance at the table. Because everybody's going looking at that item and going, man, I want to make one now too.
00:10:11
Speaker
And so you've got to be thoughtful about like this this this item because it's going to be OP the way they design it. And you might be in for a battle if that player is sensitive about criticism.
00:10:23
Speaker
So you're going to get criticism. You're going to have to be doing a lot of criticism. criticism So be ready for that. it It can be a headache, but if you have a good relationship with your players, maybe it's not that big of a deal.
00:10:34
Speaker
Well, and I think
Enhancing Storytelling with Unique Crafting
00:10:35
Speaker
that's, it's almost like it's a microcosm of the overall game, right? Like it does depend on a lot of goodwill between the players and the GM and so forth. So one thing I think could also help with that though, right? Is is if you've got players that are just looking to kind of ladder up the power level, so to speak, you know, if they want to get the plus two sword because their plus one isn't good enough. And that's what everybody has.
00:10:56
Speaker
Like, that's a whole different kind of person. But like, I think there's something really cool about helping players come up with unique utility items that interact with their class or that maybe are connected to their background in some way, or that can do just weird, interesting stuff that maybe you wouldn't expect. And you can use existing items as kind of a uh, an inspiration for this. So they have, for example, like, you know, a jug of ever flowing water or something like that. I can't remember exactly what it's called, but it's basically like this jug that, you know, you can tip it over and water will just continually come out of it. What if that could be something else? What could, what if it was lamp oil? What if it was, um, you know,
00:11:36
Speaker
Any one of a number of other kind of items. Blood could be an option. Yeah, I've had a, I made a shield in a game that was a immovable shield, like the immovable rod, you know? Oh, wow.
00:11:47
Speaker
Like, how did that go? i don't know. I just made It hasn't, hasn't been used yet. We'll see. i don't know. It's just, it's, it could be as cool as the player uses it, you know?
00:11:59
Speaker
But I don't think it's game breaking. I don't think it's any more game breaking than some of the other things, you know, you could have in there and until it is. Yeah. We're going find out. And that, that kind of discovery is fun though, too. Right. Like one of the things that's neat is when you create items that have interesting lateral applications, ah players are inspired to become more creative with that kind of thing.
00:12:20
Speaker
And then that may put you in sort of weird spots and you're goingnna have to come up with great stuff. And frankly, friends, that's the joy of the whole crafting thing. I think. Yeah, and I would say one of my one of my earliest memories of Dungeons & Dragons when I was playing in 2nd Edition, i one of my first characters was he crafter. and i just remember making items for players in the group for the other players, you know, and how fun that was that we had these original cool swords and whatever armor.
00:12:55
Speaker
And, I just remember that being a point of, of, uh, joy around the table that we had handmade items from the, from another character. Yeah, really wonderful. Well, okay, so we've been talking about some of the challenges of crafting. um We talked about some of the different kinds of crafting in terms of potions and other things. Special inputs, I think, are things that we want to use to keep people from kind of running going nuts with all this stuff.
00:13:23
Speaker
And crafting can create its own, because of the rarity of those inputs, it can create its own quests too, right? Like if you need a if you need basilisk eyes for this thing you're going craft, you got to go find a basilisk somewhere. That's not just on the open market probably.
00:13:37
Speaker
Yeah. You might need rare metals. You might need you know herbs that are only found on your volcanoes. i mean,
00:13:44
Speaker
They could be, crafting itself could be a vehicle to kind of have an adventure. Like yeah maybe have a little, maybe you've run in a campaign for a long time and you need just like a little detour where they're fighting something different.
00:14:00
Speaker
This could be a good way to like get them on a one shot away from the main characters, know, campaign storyline to just get maybe a certain mythical item to craft something.
00:14:11
Speaker
It could be just fun. Yeah. Yeah, it could be that. I mean, and also, but to your point, like you could also weave it into the main storyline in the sense that, look, the only way to kill this bad guy is to, you know, get a piece of iron that came from the smithy that he had when he was a level one bad guy or something. You like you could, you could have all kinds of interesting things to do. Only the Hattori Hanzo sword.
00:14:34
Speaker
That's right. Cut this man down. That's right. Yeah. It's going take Hanzo steel to get that. It's going take Hanzo steel. Yeah. So just items should be part of the storytelling.
00:14:46
Speaker
So weave that into your story, find ways to make it exciting for the players um and get them involved with the creation process because eventually this is going to be theirs and you want them to have, feel that kind of pride in having made it.
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah. Now we were talking about inputs for a moment. One of the things that you've done is having monsters have components and things you can harvest from them. I think that's a kind of yeah interesting thing.
00:15:14
Speaker
Tell me about how it is that we get all kinds of weirdo stuff. I mean, do people have to kind of come up with taxonomies of what kinds of things you can harvest on all the different monsters and what kind of plants are in what kind of different environments? Like how do we, how do we get started if we're going start looking at all kinds of exotic materials out there in the world?
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, how would you get started with that? I've i've used this website called the Thieves Guild. They have this harvesting kind of guide on there that i use. And there's all sorts of ways you can do it. You can kind of wing it if you need to.
00:15:46
Speaker
I find that if I can just allow them to kind of do the outsourcing for that. So there are tools out there for you guys that could allow you to harvest things in your games of Dungeons & Dragons.
00:15:59
Speaker
I referenced the thieves guild. I know there are other things like within foundry. If you're playing virtually, there are mods that people have made that have harvesting as part of it. So there's no shortage of tools out there. If you're looking for it, I recommend using them because if you could just outsource some of that labor on some other tools and do it.
00:16:21
Speaker
Yeah. We're big fans of shortcuts like that. i I'll say this though. I think that if you are a gm and you're in the middle of a game and you want to start introducing this stuff, the first thing to do is to look at what kinds of special abilities creatures have.
00:16:35
Speaker
Yes. So if this is a creature that shoots electricity, it's like a blue dragon, let's say, then maybe he's got crystals inside him. You could even have existing items that like we had a game where a player got displacer cloak and they actually got that made from the skin of a displacer that they they defeated.
00:16:57
Speaker
None of the players made it, but they they actually took the skin and had it made. So even that had, there's a story behind that item. It's no longer just a item they found in a chest somewhere.
00:17:12
Speaker
It was a creature that actually felled and skinned and had it made. Yeah. So
Crafting Practices Across D&D Editions
00:17:18
Speaker
the first thing I'd look at is look at the, um, So the first thing I'd say is look at the kinds of monsters you're fighting and see what their special abilities are.
00:17:26
Speaker
And that can provide a great basis for that. But then also when you're looking at the different kinds of environments you're in, think about the kinds of plants and natural resources that might be there. So if you're in a desert, maybe there are,
00:17:42
Speaker
various kinds of plants and other things that store moisture. And you could have some kind of water source, or you could have ingredients that come from special plants that do that.
00:17:53
Speaker
Or maybe because as cactuses are an example of this, maybe they've got natural defenses to protect that moisture that can then be used as a part of recipes that you have. Like you could get cactus needles or other things like that.
00:18:07
Speaker
And the more creative you are with this, the more fun it'll be. But like, there's so many things you could do in Arctic environments. There'll be a different set of plants and things in tempered environments and still others yet.
00:18:19
Speaker
So there's all kinds of options you could have. If you started thinking about what kind of world you're in and what kinds of, environmental challenges, the various kinds of flora in there. So that's a way of starting to build a catalog. And one of the neat ways that that can help you early on is that you don't need to have an entire you know catalog of stuff because you have a story as a GM, you may be able to just say, here's the story I've got.
00:18:44
Speaker
This is the direction gonna go. I know it's going through desert or I know it's going through an Arctic tundra or something like that. And so I know generally what kinds of creatures are there. I know generally what kind of plants are there. And can just focus on some of those kinds of things.
00:18:58
Speaker
So Ben, we were kind of talking about this a little bit with a group of friends recently. And there was kind of a bit of a back and forth about um whether or not like people were customizing and and crafting in this newer edition of Dungeons & Dragons. I say newer edition. It's fifth edition. It's been around for quite a while, actually.
00:19:19
Speaker
And there seems to be kind of a consensus that not many people are crafting. And I don't actually know if that's true or not. And i I almost want to say I don't think that is true. i I think it has to do with that we don't do as much of it yeah as we used to.
00:19:34
Speaker
That might be, I definitely think the expectation's different. I think part of the thing is if the rules made it look like in order to get a really great effect, you were probably gonna be better off spending your time running around dungeons as opposed to sitting around someplace where you had an access to a smithy or a potion shop or whatever, trying to brew up your own stuff.
00:19:54
Speaker
So the thing is, though, I think that's actually a function of the kind of characters you have more than it's a function of what the rules are. I don't know. and i just know that when we played second edition, we did a lot of crafting.
00:20:06
Speaker
And we didn't do any in 3.5. And we did very little in 5th. My contention was a little bit was that the rules are so good... in fifth edition, they're tight and they're, they're so well-rounded that it makes it difficult to craft in.
00:20:25
Speaker
Whereas second edition was such a a mess. It was all over the place. It made it easy to craft in because there was such, there was such room for There was a lot of room for like error in that game because there was already so much error intrinsically in the game.
00:20:43
Speaker
If that makes any sense. Yeah, kind of. Here's my take on it. is I think that in 4th edition especially, but 5th edition as well, these are very powerful characters typically.
00:20:56
Speaker
They typically have a lot of great things they can do. They typically have a lot of really cool abilities spells. They feel more heroic. Yeah. Out the gate. You look at a second edition character and especially at early levels, maybe less so as you go on, but these are characters who you can feel the dirt under their fingernails.
00:21:14
Speaker
These guys are going to miss a lot when they swing a sword and at normal enemies. It's not going to be a default assumption. They're going to win a lot of their encounters. And so when you give a second edition party, a crafted item,
00:21:28
Speaker
man, it's got a lot of effect. It's really a game changer for those guys. Whereas if you give something to a fifth edition party, they're not like the second edition party. The second edition party needs all the help it can get. Yeah, that for that plus one sword in second edition felt like you just like, oh my gosh, I win the lottery. Like I can actually survive now.
00:21:50
Speaker
Yeah. So I think that's a part of what's doing the work here is that if your characters tend to be very powerful or super heroic, then your crafting is going to have to produce things that are worth somebody that powerful is time creating an impact for them. And I think that's something that we're very reluctant to do typically at this level in D&D. But if you were in a second edition game, having something that could give you back like a D6 hit points or something Or having something that would that would increase your to hit number by like one point.
00:22:23
Speaker
God, you could use all the help you could get. That was the most important thing. They had entire books, just massive books of magic items. Yeah. I mean, Dragon Magazine put out like churned out every month magic items and stuff.
00:22:38
Speaker
So it was ah a game that had a lot of, and I would call a lot of that stuff homebrew. It was made outside the the realm of the canon books and it had that kind of like homebrew feel to it.
00:22:52
Speaker
Some of
Enjoying the Crafting Process
00:22:53
Speaker
that stuff was whacked out, crazy, powerful. But it was a lot of fun. And i I would just say, like, have fun, you guys, when you're building these things. Don't forget that we're here to have a good time with some of your items.
00:23:07
Speaker
um You might find that you might have broken part of the game. You could always eke it back. Talk to that player and say, man, you know what? I made a bit of a mistake. So we're just going to tweak that item a little bit.
00:23:22
Speaker
Don't be afraid to have a good time, though. Yeah. That's one of the things you could, uh, you could reliably do though. Right. It was, uh, our friend Randy said, you know, back in second edition, when somebody had an item that was too powerful, that's what rust monsters were for.
00:23:35
Speaker
Yeah. I remember um remember him throwing those at me. We've had, um, still, still, uh, bitter about it there. Uh, maybe just a little sore. Um, but we've had, we've had some fun with some custom, custom magic items. I think, um, uh,
00:23:53
Speaker
in our games. We don't, we don't, we didn't use a lot of them in our other games, but the ones we did make, they tend to be the ones that are the most fun, weren't they? I think so. I think once you, as you said, once you have that sort of pride of ownership and crafting, ah you know, once you have that pride of creating, I guess, I think that's a big part of it.
00:24:13
Speaker
The other thing I think though, too, just getting back to some of this balance thing, give the players more opportunity to have disposable benefits. A scroll or a potion is something that they'll use once. yeah And then if it turned out it was too powerful, well,
00:24:26
Speaker
they used it don't let him do it again yeah it's it's the weapons and armor you have to be very careful of i would even emphasize even more so the armor than the weapons that's really true in fifth yeah because yeah remember friends that the ac is not supposed to scale linearly it's it's only supposed to go up a little at a time yeah so when you and incorporate that plus two armor you're just like oo I can't hit that player anymore. Like I'm having a real tough time as a GM now.
00:24:57
Speaker
So just be thoughtful. ah But these are things you're going to learn as you, the more you run games, you're going to know what those limitations are. you're And and and the the longer you play with your group of friends, the more trust you build between each other so that when you do have to kind of eke back and say, I made a mistake, they're understanding right We're all here to have fun playing the same game. And and to the extent that items distort that, ideally your players are going to be willing to help you correct things.
00:25:28
Speaker
i think on I think we've talked about all we we can on crafting, haven't we, Ben? I think this is good. Friends, if you haven't listened to our episode on items, I'd recommend going and checking that out too. It's a nice companion piece to this discussion.
00:25:39
Speaker
Yes. And in two more weeks, we will come back to you with another episode of Tabletop Tune-Up. I think we're probably going to a Broken Compass review. Oh, I can't wait to do that. Should we do that?
00:25:51
Speaker
That's going be a lot of fun. Yeah. yeah You can already tell what I think about the game. Yeah. I had a great time with it, but boy, it took a minute to wrap my head around that game. So it were we're going to have a fun discussion about that in a couple weeks.
00:26:03
Speaker
And until then, keep those dice rolling.
00:26:50
Speaker
Tune up We'll show you how it's done
00:27:04
Speaker
Your RPGs, dragon lost in the same old scene.
00:27:11
Speaker
But these two roll up, bringing power unforeseen.
00:27:19
Speaker
No tired tropes, no predictable line. They craft realms.
00:27:34
Speaker
Legends in the game call them sages of the board When they're setting the scene, you're never ignored Roll the dice, spin the fate, watch it unfold They're turning the mundane into stories of gold
00:27:55
Speaker
One's the storyteller, words so rich and refined The other's the rule keeper, precise on the grind Together they're a force, a perfectly balanced scheme Every session they run feels like a living dream
00:28:24
Speaker
We rose rise, villains plot, epic battles ignite With twists and turns that last deep into the night They're the kings of narrative, masters of the arc Guiding each game from the sparve to the dark So if your game's feeling flat, lost and unfixed These two will rebuild it with the slickest tricks Call them up when your world's ready to fall They'll turn it to greatness, best game of all
00:28:57
Speaker
Tune up, tune up, level up your fun Tune up, tune up, your quest has now begun Tune up, tune up, we'll show you how it's done Tune up, tune up