Transcript
Speaker: Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Play On Words podcast. It's Miss Beth and Cameron. Play On Words! Play On Words! This is Play On Words from Big City Readers.
Speaker: And Miss Beth.
Speaker: We had our baby girl a couple weeks early, so we will be getting back to our podcast episodes all about answering your school curriculum questions and parent-teacher night questions. Those episodes are coming back, but this week we are resharing an episode that is is very timely for me. It is with my friend Michelle, who is an infant mental health specialist. um And we talk about, can you hold your baby too much? to Talk about baby and parent attachment and all the things attachment in the early years, like the first five years, that's what she specializes in. And I thought this was a great listen for me to re-listen to because i definitely have had some people say, you know, don't hold that baby too much. You're going spoil her.
Speaker: And while I know that that's not true, you do want to have like a good factual, um, response. So I re-listened to this episode and I thought I would share it. Oh, Cameron says hi. I thought I would share it for whoever else, um, needed that, uh, too.
Speaker: So I hope you enjoy it. Let me know, um, what other episodes you want to see this season. Here we are fall 2026. Um, and we will get back to your back to school questions next week, I think.
Speaker: Okay. Here's the episode. Okay. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Play On Words. It's Miss Beth, and I have one of my favorite Instagrammers and um moms to follow here, Michelle Charrier. Did I say it right? Yes, you it. Of Babies and Brains. And Michelle, I'm so happy that we're going to talk about parent-child relationships and attachment.
Speaker: ah You're the actual expert, and I can't wait for you to answer everyone's questions. Yeah, I'm super, super excited to be here. I could do like a five-hour meeting on attachment, so I'm ready to go. Yay. okay well, will you introduce yourself for people that don't know you, how you got to where you are and what like they can come to you for?
Speaker: Yeah, so I started out in community behavioral health, so I was actually serving families in their homes working. um A lot of the families were involved in the foster care system, so we were doing a lot of trauma work, which inevitably involves attachment work because for children to be able to feel safe, learn, thrive, and grow. They have to feel safe in their relationships with whoever's caring for them. So that was where I got my start.
Speaker: I created and supervised programs. We educated parents in group settings as well. And then during the pandemic, I created Babies and Brains, just kind of out of boredom. I didn't have a child yet. I had a lot of extra time. I wanted to share more information with parents around the globe. And it ended up turning into a business where I i did use to run in-person groups. Now i'm focusing more on digital content courses um and masterclasses and guides. Yeah. Wow. that' Have you practiced that before? No.
Speaker: That was such a good summary. Well, thank you. I think it has to do with the fact that I'm tired. and I didn't have time to overthink it. So it just said I let it out. I forgot to introduce that you have sassy content, which is, is you know, I feel like I'm like, you need to have a personality if I'm going to fight follow you. Like, I need to know not just information all the time. And I like that you give it back to people.
Speaker: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I feel like lately I haven't been as sassy. I'm like sassy and sensitive. So sometimes i have a hard time with it because I'm like, I can dish it, but I cannot take it. Okay. um Okay. So like everybody also, I i have so many people ask so many attachment sibling questions that I started to go. I started to get scared about this conversation because I'm Because I'm wondering like how my attachment has been formed, and even though I know. It's not going to be bad news. Oh, good. it' This is all going to be good news for people. Yeah, we'll keep it. We'll keep it light. No, just kidding. It's not. Yeah, there's not really it will be it will be OK.
Speaker: Why do you think that people like get like scared about stuff like that? Like being like, oh, no, i like everyone just thinks that you're going to hear that you're doing everything wrong. Yeah, honestly, like I did not realize how much anxiety that parents have around attachment until I was like, I guess, in this world, because I don't know when I was working with people face to face, it wasn't like that. And I don't know if it was just like the circumstances or the setting or what, but like. Everyone on the Internet has time to worry about everything they're not doing. Like, I'm not working out enough and I'm not eating well enough and I'm not taking care of my kids well enough. And the comparison, it creates so much anxiety. Literally all the attachment questions are anxiety backed usually. So if that's what's in there. Like, that's what I usually get.
Speaker: oh interesting. Yeah. I hate that. We're worried about everything. ah Yes. And OK, so, OK, let's back it up a little bit, because I always forget, like I'll be referencing like the things that I do that I've been talking about, you know, for eight years. And then somebody will go, what is phonological awareness? And I'm like, oh, I forget that. Like the things that are so natural to us to talk about are like this might be the first time someone's hearing this. Yeah.
Speaker: So how what what is attachment and what why is it important? Yeah, and there is a lot of misunderstanding around the word because we just think like attach means like to fasten or it means closeness. So it's this biological, so it's innate. A child is born with it. This tendency to seek nurturance, protection and care from just a select person.
Speaker: few number of caregivers. So it's not going to be like 30 caregivers. They have their little crew. um it could be one person. It could be five people. But they just need at least one person that they can access um to get their needs met. Because we know that children, especially very young children, cannot meet any of their needs. Like they're depending on us for food and shelter and protection and all of that.
Speaker: um And so that is why it's biologically driven, because a child cannot survive without an attachment. um The thing that is misunderstood is that attachment doesn't mean like if a child is attached, we think that's like a positive thing. So either children are attached or not attached is the misconception, but that's not how it goes. So we can be attached but not have a great quality of attachment. Yeah. There's not really such thing as an unattached child unless they're in circumstances where they're being bounced around in foster care and they haven't had time to develop that connection. But really, a child can't survive without an attachment. So that doesn't really exist in nature. There's somebody taking care of them. Even if that care isn't great, there's someone keeping them alive. um And, you know, I hate to say that, but some children aren't receiving great care. So sometimes it really is just like they're
Speaker: It's the basic needs are being met. So we can have a secure attachment. And that is a, you know, that's what we strive for. That means that child feels confident in that caregiver. They feel safe with that caregiver. And then there are insecure attachment types where there's some conflict there, is stuff going on with the um the parent themselves. And that doesn't create that security and that confidence in that child. So.
Speaker: Okay. how This is a question that you might not have like an answer to. oh no, I'm scared. I know. Okay, good. We're both scared. Okay. um You said unless the child's like bounced around in foster care and doesn't have time to attach. Is there like an amount of time that would like, would it be like 60 days with the same caregiver that could form an attachment that could facilitate something? Or is it like? yeah that yeah So that's a good question. To my knowledge, there isn't like and a number that like would go across the board because there's so many factors to consider. So if we have a child who, you know, has a really traumatic past, it's going to take them probably a little bit more time because they're going to be on guard. Their nervous system has taught them like, hey, bad things happen to us. And so we need to prevent that from happening again. And that can absolutely be a barrier in them forming that attachment. It doesn't mean that it can't happen. It just may take more effort
Speaker: and more time. But again, I don't have like an exact timeline. But that's, you know, also, it's not just like this linear thing like the more trauma or the older you are, the longer it takes because, you know, an infant can go through a lot even in the first 30 days of life. And just having a separation from a caregiver is a trauma. And it may take them longer. There's temperament that's going to play a role and just the goodness of fit between the caregiver and the child. So I think that's why there's not really a number because the situational factors are going to influence that oh my gosh okay so that actually leads to a really like a question someone asked so like so like what is a trauma like what could be a trauma because somebody says you know like like had a really traumatic childbirth and was separated from my baby for four days does that affect their attachment like what what are the traumas that could affect this Yeah, so for babies, it's it's hard. Obviously, there are some things that we just know are like downright traumatic, you know, like abuse and neglect and and witnessing domestic violence, things like that. But trauma is also so individual.
Speaker: um You know, something that really frightens and overwhelms one person may not do that to another person. We can have two people in a really similar car accident and one person recovers and one is traumatized.
Speaker: So it really comes down to that individual's nervous system. And trauma and toxic stress is different from just like the everyday stress of like, oh, my gosh, someone merged into my lane or, you know, those little like spikes that we get or even just the regular stuff like I spilled my coffee all over the place.
Speaker: it it's truly overwhelming that person's nervous system to the point where they don't have access to the tools to cope with it. And then it becomes trauma because it's it's prolonged, right? They are being triggered after it. They may be having flashbacks and nightmares. And one of the biggest things that really seals in, you know, the trauma of an event is not having access to supports. And so for a child, if...
Speaker: they are in a situation where they are being traumatized by their caregiver. Like that's a twofold thing because it's like, well, I'm experiencing the trauma, but then I also don't have access to the supports that I need to get through this. So as far as childbirth and a child being separated for a few days or being in the NICU for, you know, 30 days, it's just so individual. And, you know, how is that parent recovering from that event as well? Because if the parent is really in their trauma and stress and they're not getting help, how are they going to show up?
Speaker: for their little one. So it's so hard because with attachment, there's no like straightforward answer. It's always like, it depends. But I talked, I talked with someone named Dr. Frankie. She has a really good um page about like NICU stuff and oh cool attachment and trauma. It's Miracle Moon UK. And we did a conversation about this. And she said like, you know, yes, it is traumatic to have a separation, be in the NICU, go through you know, a traumatic birth, be hooked up to machines, all of that.
Speaker: But we have to focus on what's in our control. Like, how can we bond with our child? How can we show up for them and nurture that connection and do skin to skin and create relationships with the hospital staff so that even when we're not with our child, they have that connection through that other person. So I would focus more on that. Like, how are we going to connect and move through this? Because we can't change necessarily what happened.
Speaker: So sorry, that was like such a long answer. Oh, my gosh. That's so hard. Oh, my. others Yeah. And I mean, it's worse out there than you would imagine just saying that. So it's, yeah, to actually work in the field when you're dealing with trauma, it's it's really tough. I am a little removed from it now that I'm on Instagram because people on Instagram and this is not like a shot or shade towards anyone on Instagram. I'm on there, too. I am also this mom. But we're worried about things like screen time and like attachment and things. But then, like, there are people who are worrying about, like, like, there's really bad things out there. Let's just say that. So it is I'm desensitized from that past work, but also I'm a little bit removed from it now. I'm working with a different population. So I think I am a little bit more sensitive than I used to be.
Speaker: But yeah. It's special. Yeah. yeah Yeah. Okay. Wow. um i When you just said that, I was just going to ask a question that was like, so you talked a little bit about repair. So like say for for traumatic instances that your child has to be away from you, whether like how how does that look? And is there like a magic window of like, well, be as close to your child the first year or the first six months? Or is there like it gets better or easier to like be away for longer periods of time?
Speaker: Um, so, well, those are so repair can happen or repair. We can do repair honestly for anything. It can be like we literally raise our voice in a five second window. i like to think of it as like, is there a moment that didn't align with how you want a parent?
Speaker: and And people always think of repair as like, I have to like completely lose it and yell at my kid to repair. And and people are like, can I repair this? And I'm like, first of all, you can repair anything you want, girl, like do it. um But for those like bigger traumas that you were kind of initially mentioning, that's going to probably take like therapeutic support and stuff. Like I wouldn't say that's just something we would want to wing because we have to the first step of repair is to to self-reflect and self-regulate because. The adult. Yeah. that As the adult, the caregiver in that relationship, because how are you going to understand your child's experience? How are you going to connect with them if you don't even understand what happened with you? Yeah. So if it's something that's really deep, like deeply affecting you and it was like a huge separation, traumatic separation, I would get therapeutic support first. But if we're talking about like those every day, like, you know, I lost it for a second. I had to go in the bathroom and scream while you were crying in the living room. Like I needed a break. Like I couldn't handle it.
Speaker: First, yeah, we're going to reflect and self-regulate. We're going to be like, I didn't like that. Right. That was that felt really overwhelming for me. That probably felt scary for my child. So we want to kind of just reflect on what happened.
Speaker: Take those deep breaths, splash cold water in your face, whatever you want to do. And then the biggest, the next biggest step is really connecting with our child. So if you feel like you're in a place where you're not seeing them as the problem anymore, you know, you can truly connect to their experience. That means you're ready.
Speaker: If you're still going, well, if you wouldn't have ran in the street, then I wouldn't have done that. You're not ready for it, right? Like if you're still blaming your child. That's so important, I think, for people to hear. Yes, because we tend to look at like their behavior is what caused my problem. And it's like, no, you are responsible for your behavior, right? If we can't be responsible for our behavior, then like what are we how are we expecting that from our children? Right. It doesn't make any sense. Well, I think there's like plenty of adults that are in like adult to adult relationship that would still blame the other person for their behavior. Oh, yeah. I mean, i and like we all have tendencies to do that because when we feel discomfort, we like want to deflect the pain and the discomfort onto someone else when it's too much for us to manage. And so when we're doing that to our children, like in adult to adult relationships, we both have fully developed brains. So it's like we can work that out if that happens. But for a child, they don't get it. So if we're blaming them, like sometimes children internalize that they're like,
Speaker: Am I the problem? Like, is it me like, is it, you know, so we really want to make sure that we we get comfy with the uncomfy that is happening um first. And then we just we have to connect with them and say, like, I know that was really scary when mom yelled or I know it was really hard to be away from me when I was at work. You know, we don't always have to repair just from being separated or at work, because if we set our children up to be in a safe environment, it it may have not, you know, overwhelmed them. It may have not been a rupture.
Speaker: and So we really want to look at those situations where we did something that wasn't aligned with how we want to parent and our children felt overwhelmed and afraid and upset. um So, yeah, acknowledge their experience, you know, accept their feelings, allow them to be mad at you. Parents have a really hard time with that one. It's like, you're not allowed to be mad at me. Like, I'm your parent. Like, why are you so ungrateful? Like, how could you be mad? I didn't even do anything. You're the one that ran into the streets. Like I saved your life. And we start getting like all into this logic. And it's like they are not being logical in this moment. They're a child. They are emotional. Let's connect to the emotions.
Speaker: So just let them feel what they feel. If they're like, I'm mad at you or you did scare me or you're the worst. I hear you. I hear you. I always just say I hear you. Like that's a good one to stick to. I hear you. I know that's so hard.
Speaker: You don't even have to name a feeling. Like parents get very stuck on like, what's the feeling? And they're like going in this like list in their mind and they're like getting all like in a tizzy about it. Stay in the connection. Just say, I know it's hard. um And then, you know, if the child did do something that was like out of line, like they hit. OK, that is dangerous. We don't want them to do that. We can also set boundaries.
Speaker: while we're repairing and accepting their feelings. So we have this like balance that we need to keep. It doesn't have to be either or. We don't have to be like the big, bad, strong parent or the like mushy one. We could do both at the same time.
Speaker: Oh, that's good. That's a good reminder. And also when you just said like stay in the connection, I always like the thing I say to myself most throughout the entire day, every day is you can either have connection or be right. And like, i' like in every conversation, I'm like,
Speaker: What is my goal here? connection or to be right, like it's like, okay, I can connect to that person's feeling. Not like, no, you shouldn't feel that way because I didn't do anything wrong. It's like, oh, I'm thinking this is tips for like adults. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: but Everything that we apply to children applies to adults because we were all children. um So it still makes sense for us. But you know what you were just saying? i have I have a hard time with that, honestly. Like I always feel this need to defend. Like I don't want to be misunderstood in that. We have to also be gentle because that comes from a childhood experience.
Speaker: kind of wound sometimes, you know, feeling just misunderstood. Sometimes children are scapegoated and all the problems are put on them. And so we just want to like defend our goodness and defend our intentions. And so it's not that that impulse is like a wrong thing. It's from something. It's telling us a story and it's important. But like you said, it does take us out of connection. So we we it's a lot to work through that. I still am working through that. How do you do that? Yeah.
Speaker: Honestly, like, I just have to, well, like, in the moment, initially, I do have the impulse to become defensive. That is one of my things. And my husband, if he could hear this, he'd be like, mm-hmm, yes, it is. He'd be, like, nodding his head. But so in the, like, sometimes right away, you don't catch yourself. But it's about that reflection afterwards. It's like, okay, okay.
Speaker: I was doing that thing again. And that disconnected me from the person that I want to understand me. Right. Like that doesn't make sense. That's like an oxymoron. Like we want to be connected. So, um yeah, it's that reflection. If it takes time, like, you know, whatever you have to do, take time to yourself, deep breaths, whatever it is. And then you have to like reconnect with that person and own it And that's the hard part. Oh, I hate that.
Speaker: Yeah. I hate it, too. It's uncomfortable. ah how Being a human is so weird. It's hard. i know. Okay, that's good. That's good. you This is all very good. Okay, so a couple questions I'm looking at.
Speaker: a lot of people want to know welcoming a new sibling tips and also... This question I really want to make sure we don't skip is, if my baby only wants to be held all the time, are they too attached? Like, am I creating a clingy baby? Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. Okay. So the sibling. So how do we prepare an older child has a sibling coming? So i think what happens is we think that because things are different or because we have to do things differently, like we can't hold both children all the time. Like, it's just going to look different when we welcome another child. Inevitably, that we think different is worse. Like, different is inferior in some way. Different means I'm not doing my best because I was doing my best with one. And, you know, now I'm definitely not going to be able to do it with two. But we have to realize that, like, this is how families work, right? Like, if every second, third, fourth, and in your case, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth child would be doomed because they weren't the firstborn,
Speaker: Yeah. How would we evolve? So everybody would, everybody has, like, it's not, if you have another kid, that's not going to mess It's not, yeah, it's not like automatic, insecure attachment. Of course, there's going to be a learning curve, right? Like, we can't possibly...
Speaker: like just immediately have it down, right? Like even when you have one child, like you have to go through this process, this dance, you know, this rhythm that you learn together. And so when um I was doing kind of research on this to create the guide that I made for parents,
Speaker: One of the studies that they did, and it was one of the long longitudinal studies that was actually looking at moms and dads, which a lot of studies don't. They just look at mother-child relationships. What they don't have a mother?
Speaker: Yeah, I know. Well, and, you know, and what about, like, you know, same-sex parents? that's There's a lot of people left out of studies frequently. I think maybe they're getting a little bit better, but, like, all of the, like...
Speaker: longitudinal studies are like usually between mother and child. um So what they looked at is, you know, what did the parents do to create that security in that first child because, you know, when the second child came and kind of disrupted things and it came down to you know, The parent being mindful of how they were presenting, you know, being mindful of their feelings and their stress.
Speaker: um How well the parents co-parented. and then um also the support system that the parents had. And the parents' tendency to not just focus on behavior And not just modifying the behavior, punishing the behavior of the older child, but seeing that there was something underlying there, understanding that there was an emotional experience happening. So parents who focused on like punitive punishments, like, you know, you hit your baby sister, you're in your room for an hour kind of thing and just just focused on that. They weren't really, um you know, aligned with their co-parent. They didn't have a lot of support. That's where the risk comes into play. But that is the fact that is the case for even if you just have one child, it's the same risk. So nothing really changes. It's just obviously things get harder with a second child. So if you are welcoming a new sibling, you want to focus on how are you taking care of yourself and your own stress?
Speaker: How are you, you know, reflecting and becoming aware of your internal experience? We're not going to be able to stop stress. So don't people stress about stress when I talk about this. They're like, wait, I am stressed. Now stressed about being stressed.
Speaker: Don't stress about your stress. Just like notice it, become aware of it. That's where we make changes awareness. um You know, maybe have a plan with your co-parent or if things aren't going great with your co-parent, like put resources there, therapy or whatever that's going to look like.
Speaker: You know, broaden your support system, reach out to your supports, delegate things to your supports, have them, you know, locked and loaded and ready. And then um as far as behaviors and punishment go, you want to just, this is kind of like, I don't know exactly if everyone's going to have access to this because I'm like, you know, kind of educate yourself on, you know, that behaviors have meaning.
Speaker: It's not just behavior is a problem, behavior is a symptom. So we want to understand that, you know, when my child hits or they become aggressive or they tell me they hate me or they're pushing me away because there's a sibling, none of that is the the real case.
Speaker: There's feelings of jealousy and disappointment and all these things underneath. And so... I'm going to say like, you know, work on understanding that. How are you going to do that? I mean, my page would do some of that and some of the resources I have there, are you know, books on understanding behavior. The whole brain child is a really good, you know, one that a lot of people know.
Speaker: But yeah, not focusing on like punishments, focusing on connection to the underlying experience. So those are like the four, I think I listed four, four things that you would want to focus on. Preparing your child um ahead of time.
Speaker: People are like, when do I start? You know, if you literally like pee on the stick and you want to tell your child and start then, like, hey, two lines, baby. This means to you.
Speaker: Go ahead. I mean, you can start then. It's a personal preference. Oh, that's funny. It's a personal preference. Like if you feel like good about what's happening in that moment, share it with your child. But if you're like, oh my gosh, I'm pregnant. Everything's spiraling. Like what am I going to do about this? Maybe like understand it yourself first and then start to prepare your child. Seems like a theme. Understand it yourself first. Yes. Yes. um But I would say like At least a few months before the new sibling arrives, you want to start like talking about it more. And even if you're like, my toddler's so young, they don't understand. Like we know that receptive language. I mean, you know, all this is developing like eight to nine months. They're starting to attach, you know, meaning to words.
Speaker: That doesn't mean they're going to understand everything that you're saying, but they understand connection. They understand the warmth of your tone. So it's not going to be a bad thing if your child doesn't catch every word. Still do it. Practice. Tell them, like, baby sibling is coming. And involve them in the little things. I think that's what parents forget. We start, like, we're painting a room and we're moving around furniture. and Like, we're doing all these little things. And kids pick up on that, right? They're like, yeah.
Speaker: This is my home. And like you're switching things around. What's happening? We don't talk them through that. Usually we're just like, whatever. They're just like playing in the room. We're just going to like do all this really quick. No, like tell them what's happening. Like we're going to move baby into this room and you're going to be in this room because they start kind of like spiraling and trying to make sense of it themselves. And then they're acting crazy and having tantrums. and we're like, what is happening? How did this came out of nowhere? Yeah, it never comes out of nowhere. So involve them in the process. Like, you know, if they don't prefer to be involved, they don't. Like, you don't drag them around to, like, all the baby stores and, like, they're like, hello, I want to stay home. But just, like, give them little tidbits. Talk about it every day a little bit. You know, mention it so that's not a surprise. Okay.
Speaker: That's great. That was great. um i feel like give a speech for every question. No, I'm like, you're such a good speaker. Yeah. oh, thank you. And it's really on, on like, on point. Like, I give a speech every time I answer something, but then it like ends in like talking about like the pizza that I had two years ago that I can't stop thinking about. And like, I promise it's connected. so Somehow. Somehow.
Speaker: Somehow you find it And if you find it, you win um or lose, actually, because it means like your brain does the same thing. It's just as chaotic. Oh, I'm so sorry. um OK, that's great. Would you say do that like with every new sibling? Like that's like, OK, great.
Speaker: It's not like, OK, this is the fourth one. Everybody's fine. No. Yeah, I would do it. And i honestly, this is like what I recommend for any change. Like if you're going to move or anything that you're changing, just mention it. Involve your kids a little bit. um You know, especially with like a bigger change like moving and siblings and daycare, like find books, read books about it. I have a list of transition books.
Speaker: OK, yeah, I probably need those, honestly. because I only have like a very select few and they're not even always focused on the transition. It's more about like parent-child connection, like the kissing hand and invisible strings, stuff like that.
Speaker: Yeah. There's this great book. I think it's out of print because i saw it on Amazon the other day because I was sending it to a friend. It's just called Some Things Change. And it's so simple. I think it's Mary Murphy. um And, like, it's just really simple pictures. Really, it's like, it's like so talks about something that changes and then something that stays the same. Like, yeah. And it's just it's so good and really simple. Like, I think it's like helpful for like babies, but it's also like you can use it with a big kid who might be just like totally spiraling about something. And then like, just let's list together some of the things that are staying the same.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that. And I would I'm probably going to order that because I don't have like the whole list. I know that there's like some like Daniel Tiger books like that talk about like really specific transitions and stuff.
Speaker: But I'm sure there's just so many more out there. But that can be so helpful. You know, if your child's into watching shows or sometimes shows that will depict, find something that depicts your similar situation. um Because I mean, for all humans, if something feels familiar, we feel safer with it. if something is unexpected and surprising, we don't feel safe. Why? Because we have to be on guard. Because what if this isn't safe?
Speaker: It could be painting a room isn't unsafe. But how do I know? Because if you think about like hunter-gatherer days, we're like living in the wild. There's a lot more predators. We have to be aware if something's changing in our environment, because that could mean danger. Like, are there new animal footprints? And like,
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: of our environment to survive and we still have that instinct and so when little things change when there's like cones on the freeway that you take to work every day you're like what is happening like how long is this going to last how am i going to get to work For your little ones, it's a little bit more extreme because they just don't have an understanding. Like, we know we're making changes because we know a sibling's coming or because we're moving.
Speaker: They don't have the big picture. We have to filter out for them. Yes, I know. i I think about that. I actually, a couple of years ago, started doing, like, every, so every like, semester of life. and Not like I'm in school. I'm saying semester. But, like, I try something new so that I...
Speaker: as an adult don' that's working with children, don't ever just go, oh come on, go, you'll have fun, you'll make friends. But I want to make myself feel what it feels like in my body, in my brain about trying something new that I'm not good at. Like I have to, I put myself on purpose and like be scared, like be bad at it and don't know anybody. Like I'll take tennis lessons or go rock climbing. You know i'm just like, i Really? Yeah.
Speaker: yeah I love how intentional but you are about that. That's amazing. I have such a problem with doing things badly in front of people. i But I'm just like, I won't do it ever. Oh, you have to. no i i did stand up comedy. I did improv. Are you kidding? No. You did?
Speaker: I would yeah shit my pants. I could not do that. That's what I mean. But i i feel like it makes me better at my job because I have to know what kids are feeling. And I feel like it makes me connect like to my inner child of like that scared, like, who do I ask for help? Like, if I'm walking into a new building, like, should I ask that person? Is it embarrassing to ask that person? Like, it really makes me think about all the things that kids feel in new circumstances or trying something that they've never done before.
Speaker: So i do you think that retraining the nervous system can um help with that? Yeah, I think if you so anything that like frequently stresses you out, if you start to bring awareness to like the physiological signs like, oh, I notice like my chest tightens and like I can't really breathe and my face gets hot. And we start noticing that and like targeting like our nervous system right then, you know, deep breath, whatever that looks like. We can start to like not desensitize it, but tell it that it's safe when it feels that way. Right.
Speaker: So the more and more we practice that, we can then like widen our window of tolerance, essentially. um And for some people who have like more exposure to stress and trauma, it takes a lot longer. But even for like those little everyday interactions, we could do that. But it's so much mindfulness like you're required to like take yourself out of that moment of stress and like remember I'm safe and like I should take a deep breath. It's a lot. It's really hard.
Speaker: It's a lot. And then like, we're like, this is probably the most important thing for like grownups, teachers or parents listening to learn because like, we're trying to say this is how this is what we should be doing for kids. We should help them realize like, right before they get upset, like we can like start to see patterns. This is why like, we want to pay attention to behaviors. I always tell parents that they're like how do I know if I should get an assessment? It's like, keep track of behaviors of their consistency of the time of day of like, how regular they are and if we're in tune but we can't be so mindful of and in tune with what causes our babies or toddlers or kids to get triggered if we don't know like what it happens for us
Speaker: Yeah, especially because sometimes we are the ones triggering our kids and like that's not meant to like scare everyone listening to this. But sometimes we are like if we're so unaware of our stress and we're just zooming around every day stressed out and then like our kids are stressed.
Speaker: Well, it makes sense, right? Because if we are their source of safety. and we're stressed, then they're like, well, if you're stressed, then like I definitely should because you're the one keeping me safe. So like we're both stressed now. So our awareness is key, like really in any situation, whether it is our stress causing this cascade effect or whether it's something else, like we always have to start with us, like no matter what.
Speaker: So at least that's like consistent. You can just remember that one, like no matter what, start with yourself. Start with yourself. And I think I think two things that you've mentioned are like really important and and connected with me is one, like check yourself. So I think if I'm on a plane, I used to be a nervous flyer. i still am a little bit. But now it's like one more like prep and and more practice. Right. So the more I fly, the more I know, oh, at this time, that like, you know, when we're taking off, it usually feels like this. So i have more awareness. But then prepping, like watching videos about what is actually, and did you see that TikTok one about like when you're in turbulence, you actually can't drop because like you're kind of in cello. Yeah, yeah. And then you're like, wow, okay. That makes me feel better. Yeah. Yeah. So like thinking about what causes kids to like have that panic is like, ah okay, what what can I inform them on? What can I prepare them for? Like, how can I tell them, okay, at this point there will be turbulence. Like we're not trying to say here's how to have a perfect,
Speaker: free child carefree childhood it's like there will be turbulence here's how you can make it better but then also like that when I'm on a plane I get less worried if I look at the flight attendant like and they're fine yeah you know they're exactly they're your like reference yeah yeah so like kids need like they're looking okay wait am I fine or is this like crazy right now Yeah. And just like I love that metaphor that you just created and like some like building off of that, like people fear like, well, if I prep my kid, if I talk about it before, it's just going to cause anxiety. So like we're just going to go into the day not prepared. But if you think about that same thing, right, like if you have a fear of flying and you know nothing, like you just are going onto the plane, you've never been on one before. or You don't know the sounds it's going to make or how it's going to feel. Does that make you feel better?
Speaker: in that moment. No, it doesn't. And I always tell people like, yes, the preparation can bring up anxiety and it can bring up their like they might tell you I'm not I don't want to go to daycare. or I don't want a sibling. And parents are like, OK, I shouldn't have even talked about it. Let those feelings out now.
Speaker: Isn't it better to have them let out now in a safe, controlled container rather than don't speak of it. And then it all happens on the day of the transition. Like you want it to happen before you want to have an idea of what they feel like. You want to know their fears. You want to co-regulate with them and help them so that when it actually does happen, they feel safer with it. So don't let that part scare you if like stuff comes up in the prep.
Speaker: Yes. And also there's this book I think you would love. It's called Ruby Finds a Worry or something. Oh, no, haven't heard that one. Oh, it's so cute. But it's it's like basically this girl is like, oh, no, this worry is following me. And she tries to, like, get it away from her. And then it gets so big that then she's like, all I can think about is the worry. But so that it like. Oh, my gosh. I love.
Speaker: ah that You know, it was like if you just like let the worry like come along on the car ride, just like sit next to you like it's OK. Like so it's like it's OK. Your emotions, how you're feeling, everything is OK.
Speaker: Rather like let it out as soon as it comes and then just like, yeah, here it's here. It exists with us. It's not too big for me to handle. Yeah. Like say hi to it and then yeah recognize that it's there. I have ah the one last question, unless there's anything else you wanted to cover. I'm.
Speaker: if I'm holding my baby all the time. am I making it? Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. I forgot you asked that one. and then we went on a tangent there. um I love it, though. No. So you so again, when we're thinking of attachment as like literal, like fastened, then it seems like On me too much means too attached. Well, first of all, no such thing as too attached, right? Like if our child is very securely attached, that is a good thing. There's no tipping point where it becomes too secure.
Speaker: it it does not happen. Um... the This is the part where gets a little bit tricky, but sometimes if we as parents have anxiety around separation, we all do. Like, let me just say that. Like, I don't ever feel good leaving my child. Even leaving him out in the living room while I'm in the room working is very hard. So I'm not saying that is the case. But if you struggle so much that you can't even let your child play, like, it's just like you cannot be separated, then that can actually create a dynamic where the child doesn't feel safe separating.
Speaker: Because you're not feeling safe with separation. How can they? Right. It's that referencing thing again. But that is not a case of being too attached. Right. So there is this like kind of like there's multiple layers there. Like, yes, those behaviors can happen. And sometimes they're indicative of a concern. But I mean, my child is 20 months. He still loves to be held.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I would say like you would know it's not normal if like you are having this massive like feeling of anxiety with separation. and Like you literally like like I said, can't let them just go play with blocks because you're like, do you not love me anymore? Like you're over there playing so nicely. Like, do you hate me? No. That that is more where I'd be like, OK, let's like reflect a little bit. What's going on? Do you have experiences with rejection and like stuff like that, like in your own past? Yeah. If the child's meeting your need for closeness and then they have difficulty separating, that's where I'd say we're not in the like secure, everything's normal and good that I would be a little bit concerned there.
Speaker: But yeah, no such there's no such thing as too attached. There's no such thing as having too strong or too secure of an attachment. um Children like to be near us. Again, we keep them safe. They think we're funny. like We're the best people in the world. So why wouldn't they? Right. it makes total sense.
Speaker: So, yeah, you likely like most of the time I would say parents didn't create that, like if they have a sensitive child who wants to be on them. But if you again, it all starts with you. Look into how you're feeling about the separation and start there if you are concerned about your child's inability to separate.
Speaker: Okay, that's great. And also, I just saw one other question, which I know you talk about this a lot. um Contact naps versus sleeping on own. That's the best way to support the development is what their question is. Yeah, so contact naps are great and like we still do them. And my son, like I said, is 20 months.
Speaker: But they're not like necessary to get like put your child on a path to healthy development. Like, If that's the only way that your child sleeps and they love it, like, of course, that's going to fill their cup up. It's going to support their needs. So, of course, that could be a good thing. But good thing for some children doesn't mean bad thing for everyone else. Like if your child doesn't like contact naps or you just can't do it, maybe you have five children running around or you go to work.
Speaker: But your child sleeps fine or they're being cared for someone else who's amazing. That doesn't mean like your child's worse off because they're not contact napping. So I would say like follow your child's cues. Like for my child, he loves it so much and like we kind of couldn't put him down. So for us, it was the best thing for his development in that moment. But then like my friend who can put her baby in a crib and, you know, that baby sleeps for like 12 hours, that doesn't mean they're less attached. Less attached isn't really thing, but it doesn't mean like they're insecurely attached.
Speaker: It's just babies have different needs. Following our individual baby's cues and needs, that's what's most important. And then if we do need to make a transition, like, you know, let's say like we for some reason have to go like to on a vacation or go back to work, whatever that looks like. I'm thinking about my own scenario, knowing my child does better with contact naps. I can still slowly prepare him for a transition into another form of sleeping on a floor bed or whatever.
Speaker: But we just want to be mindful of their needs and their feelings and following their cues, doing it slowly if that's something that they need. So, yeah, there's not one way that's better or worse. It's just individual. If your child sleeps alone and you can just put them down, like, OK, well, stop bragging about that so much, actually.
Speaker: Wow, must be nice. But yeah, no, you can contact NAP until your child's three or don't. It's not that one is going to turn out better than the other. So, yeah. That's such a good reminder.
Speaker: Yeah. It's not. We complicate a lot of things and it's really just it's not that it's not that yeah it's not that simple, but it's also not that complicated. Yeah.
Speaker: Agree. That is I feel like that's like a great I feel like that's like my mantra now for today. It's not that simple, but it's not that complicated. Yeah, it's somewhere in the middle. That should be like the overthinkers mantra. Yeah, it's meat. It's medium complicated. It's just it's it's it's you can you can figure it out. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Wow. I could talk to you all day. Do you have any last parting words for the world of this huge following of the podcast? There could be a million things to add on this topic as far as attachment goes. But like, I mean, I feel like we covered good ground just because the underlying theme is the same in everything that we talked about. Right. We see that different topics we're always talking about, you know, inner reflection, inner self-regulation, preparation. All the things stay the same across the board. So.
Speaker: So for any parent or teacher, the number one place to start is in the mirror. Right. Yes. Yes. Look in the mirror. And that's the hard, like people don't want to do that. They want to do all the other steps. They're like, I'm going to buy a course on everything else except for that part because I don't want to do it. Do not make me look at my inner child wounds. no, seriously.
Speaker: That is how it is. Somebody said to me the day, like, at what point does it is it no longer a wound and it's just your personality? And I was like, What? Well, personality is, ah part of it is our experience. So, I mean, it it does become part of that. and And obviously, like, we can change aspects of that. And, like, our core temperament, like, that stuff stays the same usually across environments. But, yeah, personality is the other, like, spice involved on top of our temperament. So, kind of does. Yeah.
Speaker: It's wild because then it's like, so what, like, were you born this way? Or, like, was it this thing? And how... Nature and nurture. Yeah. And it's like it's really hard to tease those apart unless people have done like studies on twins and stuff. But I mean, yeah nurture.
Speaker: Nurture is like the biggest. mean, that's what's going to make the difference in who you are and what your environment looks like basically is the big the key there. Yeah, that's true. Because if nurture wasn't in play, then people couldn't heal from. Yeah.
Speaker: Things. Yeah. So environment, caregiving environment, all of that matters in how we shape our children. So that's a lot of pressure, but don't let that scare you. But you got it. It's not that complicated.
Speaker: yeah Yes, I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun, actually. Well, I will link where everyone can find you and all of your courses support and definitely follow you for a fun time. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. This was fun. Yeah, will you come back?
Speaker: Yes. Okay, great.
