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Episode 29: Relationship Boundaries: What They Are and How to Negotiate Them
109 Plays4 years ago
Fara and Grant talk about how people set the ground rules for relationships. Boundaries define areas which are off-limits, areas where we can freely interact, and the gray zone where effective communication is critical. With insightful examples, good humor and guidelines for how to navigate tricky situations, this episode is useful and engaging.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mental Health and Wellbeing
00:00:04
Speaker
And boundaries therefore are what allow something to have an identity and to grow and evolve. Hi, thanks for listening to doorknob comments. I'm Farrah White. And I'm Grant Brenner. We are psychiatrists on a mission to educate and advocate for mental health and overall wellbeing.
00:00:24
Speaker
In addition to the obvious, we focus on the subtle, often unspoken dimensions of human experience, the so-called doorknob comments people often make just as they are leaving their therapist's office.
The Importance of Boundaries
00:00:35
Speaker
We seek to dispel misconceptions while offering useful perspectives through open and honest conversation. We hope you enjoy our podcast. Please feel free to reach out to us with questions, comments, and requests. Hi, thanks for listening today. I'm Farah White here with
00:00:51
Speaker
my co-host, Grant Brenner. And we are going to talk about something that comes up a lot in everyday life boundaries, setting boundaries, navigating them, understanding them. And I think this is a really important topic, particularly for people who are just starting to reenter the world after maybe having, you know, more solitude over this past year.
00:01:15
Speaker
Wouldn't you agree? Yeah that's an interesting thought. I mean boundaries are always important and of course they vary a lot from relationship to relationship. You know to some extent in a big picture there's certain boundaries that apply to personal relationships. They're different from the boundaries that apply to professional relationships. There are boundaries in a student-teacher relationship. They're different from a doctor-patient relationship and friendship. So there's sort of these broad brush stroke
00:01:43
Speaker
And then there's the boundaries that to some extent are negotiated individually. And that's an interesting point that people have been kind of cooped up for a while, you're suggesting that that maybe people have gone a little feral, you know, like a little bit wild from being isolated for too long and
00:01:58
Speaker
Maybe also we're going to be like really excited to see people for the first time and maybe like gushing a little bit.
Childhood Experiences and Boundary Setting
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah. And maybe aren't going to be watching boundaries. So maybe we want to cut each other a little slack when we know that we're all in need to talk about how we learn about boundaries, why they're necessary. Do you want to say a little bit about why it's so important to have
00:02:24
Speaker
I get clear boundaries. Let's use an analogy from biology, even really simple. The cell, you know, the animal cell or plant cell, it has to have a membrane around it. I almost said wall, but it's not really a wall.
00:02:39
Speaker
because boundaries are, you know, they let things go through them, some things and other things they stop. And so boundaries are intelligent and they are semi-permeable. The boundary makes decisions. It mediates between inside and outside. And without the boundary, there's no difference between inside and outside. There's no difference between me and you. And boundaries therefore are what allow something to have an identity.
00:03:09
Speaker
and to grow and evolve. Boundaries need to be maintained by the system, the inside and the outside. Right. So it's a mutual thing. Yeah, I think that we need to be clear in what the boundaries are and then we can expect other people to respect that and honor that. I think one of my
00:03:29
Speaker
My favorite topics to talk about is how people learn how to set boundaries, which varies greatly depending on what kind of a childhood they had. So some people grow up where there's respect for privacy, where they can learn to say no, whether it's to food on their plate or to a hug or a kiss.
00:03:52
Speaker
right or sort of simple rights like my diary is not to be read by you know mom or dad or brother or sister like that's my diary my room is private and i don't i don't like you know i don't like it
00:04:07
Speaker
when you come into my room without knocking and another kid says, well, it doesn't bother me. You can come
Parenting Styles and Boundaries
00:04:13
Speaker
in whenever you want. It's like, OK, so that's great, but you have different rules than I do. And just because you're more open doesn't mean then I have to be. So I think we have to listen to people when they do speak up. But a lot of times it's hard to speak up because people don't feel like it's OK to say no.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah. And parents can have awful boundaries too, right? Or they can have good boundaries. Like parents will talk about stuff in front of their kids that they probably shouldn't. And sometimes that's hard. If you live in a small apartment and you need to have a conversation, then people can hear everything or that can extend to affection as well. Or people really make a point of being intentional about how they manage boundaries. And I think kids also learn by
00:05:00
Speaker
watching their parents, right? So having the permission to set a boundary themselves, but also understanding that certain things, you know, are not okay with their parents for whatever reason, whether it's a safety issue or whether it's, you know, a house rule. I think those are things
00:05:16
Speaker
teaching kids to respect that is an important part of development. Yeah, it goes to kind of what is good parenting. And you made me think of these four parenting styles again, which we talked about with Sarah Bren and a previous episode on coaching parents. There are four parenting styles. There's the one that you are that people think is more likely to raise a secure, healthy kid is the authoritative parent.
00:05:40
Speaker
who is supportive and warm, sets clear behavioral limits, but more or less stays out of their kid's head, you know, except when it's appropriate to serve as a sounding board to help them think through things, but they're not like telling the kid what they should think or criticizing them for their feelings or invalidating their feelings. And then there are three other styles that seem to make kids more likely to have trouble later, authoritarian parenting, which is sort of cold and too strict
Consequences of Boundary Failures
00:06:07
Speaker
and gets in people's heads.
00:06:08
Speaker
And then there are two types of permissive parents who don't keep appropriate boundaries. One type being indulgent and they're sort of too gratifying and the other being neglectful and they're checked out but you know you can do whatever you want and that sets up an expectation for boundaries. Absolutely I think it makes it harder for kids who grow up and go out in the world and if no one's ever said no to them and they hear it for the first time I think it
00:06:35
Speaker
can cause a lot of distress and it has to be something that they learn to deal with. You have an example of that that you have in mind? If we just think about, let's say, an athlete who had free reign in the house to kind of play rough or do whatever, you know, they wanted to do and then they go to college and have to live with other people or have other people saying, you know, I don't want a rough house. I think that's like a pretty
00:07:02
Speaker
example, obviously it can get into other issues of consent probably pretty quickly, but the idea is if no one has ever kind of set the boundary there, then I think it becomes harder for that person to navigate and to understand and to read the cues that other people maybe need a different environment or need something different.
00:07:23
Speaker
Right. And also, if they hear someone say, hey, I don't like your roughhousing, you know, I just I didn't grow up in a home, I get it, you know, and the person says, yeah, I understand. And then and then they do it anyway, it's like intellectually, they get the person is setting a boundary. But emotionally, they don't have the wherewithal or the self control yet. And then maybe there's a negative consequence.
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah. Maybe there's not. Right. I mean, I think there are always people who grow up in a home where there are no limits and it, rather than make things, you know, I think the indulgent parent wants to just give their kid everything, but then the kid gets out there into the world. Well, the indulgent permissive parent, yeah. The indulgent permissive parent, but people are going to say no, and we need to be able to accept that.
00:08:11
Speaker
Right, no one ever says no. I don't know why, but it keeps coming up, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. And in this case, I think of Veruca Salt, the very wealthy young girl who wants the goose that lays the golden egg. And her father is obviously kind of weak-willed and out of some misguided affection for her, which is sort of based in fear of her feminine sort of
00:08:35
Speaker
her feminine power or something. She rules the roost, which is funny because she wants a goose that lays a golden egg. And basically, Willy Wonka says no. And she doesn't respect the boundary. And then she falls into the trash compactor, right? Where the bad eggs go. And so that's what happens when you get a job. And then you're like, what do you mean you want me to do this task?
00:09:02
Speaker
Right. That's not something I want to do. It's like, well, then you're fired.
Understanding Boundary Crossings vs Violations
00:09:07
Speaker
Yeah. So you can't fire me. It's like, yeah, I'm sorry. No one ever told you or they have a better boss or a mentoring boss who says something like, listen, let's you know, I think you have a lot of potential. Let's let's work with you. That would be ideal. You know, I had another example because you talked about these sort of physical aggression. I thought of families and where the family culture was to make fairly direct comments.
00:09:31
Speaker
And that, you know, of course it comes from a place of wanting to help each other, but there was also like an overvaluation of being, say, smart or right. What do you think the difference is? I kind of think it's like the type and extent of the infraction. A violation is an absolute no-no.
00:09:48
Speaker
It's an absolute no, no. And I think a violation is harmful to one or the other or both parties involved. I think a boundary crossing more benign and can sometimes happen as people are trying to navigate something. I mean, there's something.
00:10:04
Speaker
boundary crossings can feel kind of enticing and sexy and, you know, there's a little, a little dangerous, a little dangerous. Right. And so I do think that's why sometimes people get into these, uh, either situations or relationships and push the boundary because there's something that feels very good on a lot of levels. One is knowing that it's there.
00:10:33
Speaker
Right. So it helps someone feel secure, like some place where they can kind of fall in through the membrane. But if it's intact, then that's actually a good thing. Safe. Yeah. Like having a container. Right. Right. Will people play around boundaries? Right.
00:10:49
Speaker
And it's like teasing like some people they are playful they tease and then then you make a joke that lands too hard or it happens, you know, or you kind of know that you're, you're pushing a limit and joking about something that feels a little shaky.
00:11:04
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, playful teasing turns into, like, you've hurt their feelings. And then you can recover from that. There's a boundary crossing, usually, unless it happens over and over and over again. Then you start to think, well, what am I doing with someone who constantly is crossing this boundary? And it's causing me distress. I think a violation is much harder to recover from.
00:11:25
Speaker
If there's a violation, there's no going back. It's often a betrayal and the relationship is permanently changed, even if it must continue. But more often than not, more often than a crossing, a violation will result in the end of the relationship. And it's worth maybe saying that crossings are quote unquote slippery slope. So if there are repeated crossings and no one says this isn't okay, we're heading toward a violation.
00:11:54
Speaker
then it can turn into an irreparable situation that you can't recover from. Whereas crossings you can in some cases learn from as well as have be playful and fine. Exactly. I think we can outline some examples of boundary crossings and violations. Maybe we can start with a culture of
00:12:20
Speaker
You know, providing more information, either in a conversation or in an email or whatever, then someone would want in the form of words or a photo, you know, and sometimes that's that's hard to know, but.
00:12:34
Speaker
to think about what the reaction of the person might be when they receive a message. This is a huge source of conflict among people, especially when it hasn't been spelled out beforehand, what's OK and what's not OK, because what seems OK to me may not be OK to you.
00:12:52
Speaker
And what you think is kind of a perfectly reasonable thing to text might be something that the other person just doesn't want to see. And then you might be offended that the other person doesn't want to see that. That's the nature of the boundary of a mutual boundary is that it requires compromise, right? Like if there's something I want that you don't want, then the relationship goes with what you don't want, not what I want.
00:13:21
Speaker
And
Communicating and Enforcing Boundaries
00:13:22
Speaker
you could say, well, can we talk about it? But ultimately, it's protective to both people to have that boundary. So I don't know what kind of information. There's obviously certain images of a sexual nature that in some circumstances would be welcome and in others would be unwelcome.
00:13:39
Speaker
that's the obvious one is around anything sexual but it could be something graphic like let's say you love gross things and you got a friend who you know gets skeeved out really easily and they're like dude like stop sending me pictures of stuff that you see on the sidewalk in Manhattan like I know you think it's really cool but
00:13:58
Speaker
like leave it alone. Or I know you're being playful, but I don't like it when you post teasing comments on social media. And I'd like you to stop doing that. And so to me, I think- Political information, sorry. Yeah, political information, graphic photos of violence that people may or may not want to see. I think the best way to navigate that you want to tell someone something or you want them to know and you feel a need to share is really just to ask.
00:14:27
Speaker
And to say, hey, I wanted to share this with you. Would it be okay if I sent along this article or this photograph? It's like getting consent. But you have to think about it in the first place, right? Like it has to occur to you that asking is a good idea. Right. And you have to be erring on the side of caution.
00:14:46
Speaker
for sure, but if you know someone well enough, sometimes you can anticipate how they're going to react, sometimes not. Would you mind if I ask you now, if you mind if I ask you what I'm about to ask you?
00:14:58
Speaker
I don't mind at all. Thanks for asking. Good. I'm glad we cleaned that up. Yeah. It can get a little like it can feel too confusing. Like, Oh, I have to ask for permission every time. Like, no, but you learn some norms over time, right? And then the boundary becomes internalized. Exactly. Exactly. And then it's all good. Yeah. Well, you can anticipate, right. Of course they're fluid and what is okay with some people.
00:15:25
Speaker
you know, let's say maybe pre-kids having stuff come in through their phone and then if they have their three-year-old playing on their phone, that might be obviously something different. But the other thing is, you know, in addition to asking, you can also tell people like, hey, you know, I know historically I've been quite fine with you sending me these like somewhat edgy
00:15:49
Speaker
political cartoons, but my kids have gotten old enough that they have figured out how to unlock my phone. And anyway, I don't want to have to worry about it. So if you could please stop sending them or send them to my email.
00:16:02
Speaker
I'll have everyone send everything to your email. Definitely not forwarding everything to you. Okay. Other examples of boundary crossings or violations. I think not taking no for an answer. And this is where we have to be very careful because there's a fine line between being persistent and being intrusive or, uh, you know, how many times can you ask for something?
00:16:31
Speaker
and have someone say no before it crosses the boundary. Yeah, sometimes if you don't, it can feel like a double bind. Because if you don't try hard enough, then people could say, well, you only asked me once. And I actually wish you had followed up. And then it's like, maybe I can't win.
00:16:49
Speaker
but so on one hand there's being like pushy, intrusive, not backing off, and then there's also like maybe being a little too, what's the word, hands off, and kind of being like, you know, so what would you do if you had a friend where you really felt
00:17:06
Speaker
they were doing something and you were worried about them and you kind of knew that they were like giving off that signal which is like don't try to help me like watch me self-destruct and do nothing and you felt strongly as a friend you had to say something how would you approach that when there is a boundary but you also feel a moral imperative
00:17:27
Speaker
I think it's okay to frame it in that way and say, you've been friends for a long time. I've known you really well. And I don't know how you feel about hearing this right now. If you don't want to hear it, let me know. But, you know, and then say whatever it is. Right. Because if you believe that that person at their best would be okay with hearing that
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah, maybe the drinking's gotten out of control or... Right, I thought about, yeah, interventions. Right. I'm willing to sacrifice the friendship because I can't. Right, right. I'll do that on the drop of a hat, though. Yeah, I'll do that for pretty much anything. I'll be like, you know, I think you should get a different haircut and, you know,
00:18:14
Speaker
And if you don't, yeah, I care so much about you. I don't know about that shade of green. Yeah. Yeah. I feel so strongly. No, I mean, but I don't know why I turned to humor there, I guess, because it's so anxiety provoking to think about being in a position where you have to give someone an ultimatum. Yeah, I don't think you always have to. But I think you can say that if what you're trying to do
00:18:42
Speaker
is in the best interest or if it's what you really believe that someone would want, I think it's okay to speak up and to really just, you know, speak up once and then see what the reaction is and to kind of retreat. I don't think, I mean, the idea of an intervention is not, oh, we kidnap people and take them to rehab.
00:19:03
Speaker
It's, you know, we talk about how they're affecting the people that they love and that's what you could be clear and firm. Yeah, you can be clear and firm without being like aggressive. And I'm thinking, you know, that could be like skit comedy might be fun, you know, with sort of
00:19:20
Speaker
I'm thinking of key and peel maybe. Because, you know, a lot of humor actually circulates around boundaries. If you take a step back and think about it, a lot of jokes that comedians make and things people think are funny are pretending to cross boundaries, but not really crossing boundaries. You know, suddenly changing the end of the joke, you know, so that they say something you weren't expecting that's a little edgy.
00:19:46
Speaker
Right. But I also think it's about context, right? And comedian is there to make a joke and to, you know, push the envelope a little bit. That's what makes it exciting and entertaining. But of course, you know, sometimes
00:19:59
Speaker
It goes too far. But it's about context. And for people who aren't professional comedians, I'd imagine that's one of the most difficult things about their job. I don't know. Well, I think it's also a good example of an excuse that people often make for crossing boundaries. They say stuff that is crossing a boundary in a context that doesn't make it normed. And then they're like, oh, I'm just joking. And it's like, well, that's kind of callous, actually. Right.
00:20:29
Speaker
you know, there's no empathy there. I think the other one, another one that comes to mind anyway, there's so many examples, is when someone states a preference and you don't respect it. I think it depends on what the preference is, what the need is that the other person has, and really trying to weigh that. Well, like my own need to get what I want
00:20:54
Speaker
versus my need to maintain the relationship in a good state. So there's maybe an internal conflict. Right. Impulse control is important here. It is. And I think that there are times where we can push and I'm thinking about sort of like health related stuff. Let's say somewhat, you know, you know that someone needs an appointment or something. And I think like nudging that along a little bit, if it's like a preventative
00:21:24
Speaker
screening or something like that and it's a family member that might be a little bit resistant that that's actually okay to do. Like if let's say you know that your parent needs a colonoscopy and hasn't gone and has been delaying it because you know they have certain fears around it but it's important that they do it and it's not like when when someone is like quote unquote help rejecting yeah and you care about them a lot
00:21:48
Speaker
Right. And you know, you're right. Exactly. And that's a very different position, I think, from, let's say, commenting on someone's body when you know that they don't
00:22:02
Speaker
really want those comments. If someone keeps asking you about their body when you don't want to be asked about it by the same token. That's true. It seems to me that a lot of these situations where people don't respect boundaries, one of the core things that comes up is feeling helpless or powerless.
00:22:20
Speaker
So you're trying to get your beloved parent to do something really basic and they're really self-destructive. And you're just watching helplessly as a sort of a train wreck is slowly unfolding in front of your eyes and you can't do anything.
00:22:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very, very difficult position to be in. A very common one. And a very common one, but I do think that bringing it up in a sense of, hey, here's how this is affecting me, is okay to do. I think that's a different kind of need. We're all in a family together. We have to look out for each other, or if it's a close-knit friend group, or if it's a relationship, you, I think, have
00:23:06
Speaker
I don't want to say more say, right, because everybody's in charge of their own body. But when people are in a close relationship, there's more leverage for sure. Right. And so you don't want to abuse that leverage. No, you don't. But one of the things that comes up a lot for me is, let's say one person in a partnership who's not doing well.
00:23:30
Speaker
And then maybe the spouse says, OK, we need to get you some help. And that person is resistant. It puts people at a crossroads very often.
00:23:40
Speaker
Oh yeah, for sure. Well, it's often a symptom of relationship dysfunction, but it's a symptom that can also cause direct problems. You know, like excessive use of alcohol can be a symptom, but it causes a problem. So you see that a lot in relationships that that's sort of the straw that breaks the camel's back. Yeah.
00:24:06
Speaker
And then one person sort of just can't live with that pain anymore of seeing the other person destroy themselves. It's very sad and poignant. It is, it is. And certainly sometimes people get help at least partially under duress. Like I'm doing this because my husband told me I had to.
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah. That's okay with getting an endoscopy, but if it's for psychological help, doing that under duress doesn't work so well because you're only partially engaged. Right, but I think it's okay to take, that person might be ambivalent if they do show up.
Boundaries in Romantic Relationships
00:24:46
Speaker
This is an opportunity. Right, to explore that. Yeah, exactly. I've been meaning to talk to you.
00:24:52
Speaker
But I think that is very, very different from, let's say, the need of the other person for some sort of gratification, like pushing somebody to do things sexually or pushing a partner to make more money. Well, if they're abusive and there's a power difference, for sure, that is totally different. I agree. Yeah. Can you say more? Yeah, I just think that sometimes people get into these dynamics where
00:25:21
Speaker
let's say one spouse is like, hey, you're not making enough money at your job, the other person is really happy. And that's what they want to do. And that's how they want to live. And it's not
00:25:31
Speaker
harming anyone. That's a different story because that's not an abuse of power necessarily, unless the person becomes abusive, but it certainly could be. And it certainly is misalignment in goals. Right. Exactly. I think that's where that conversation lies. And I think, you know, with sexuality and sex lives, it's the same thing that people have to be aligned with what they want.
00:25:59
Speaker
And if they're not, then it's the person who wants less, I think, whose boundaries should be respected. Right, but on the other hand,
00:26:10
Speaker
then one person is getting what they want and the other person is not getting what they want. And I agree that you respect, obviously you respect the person's boundaries, but it's also not a situation for everyone that can go on indefinitely. Because over time, of course, people build up unmet needs.
00:26:31
Speaker
in certain key areas, sexuality, but also life goals and lifestyle and the way you want to be living. And so resentment can build up as well. Even if the short-term goal is kind of respecting that boundary, over the long range, there has to be a conversation about the mismatch. For sure.
00:26:52
Speaker
Or not, you know, I think that no one is forced to stay in a relationship that doesn't work for them. Well, they force themselves. People do force themselves. But that's really a question for for them, right? If they want to stay in a sexless marriage, or they want to, you know, keep living a lifestyle that you know, they don't really
00:27:16
Speaker
want. Yeah, well, I agree. I think that, you know, that one way that might help listeners to think about that circumstance aside from inner conflict and how to how to manage tension is to think about how you set boundaries with yourself as well.
00:27:32
Speaker
including trade-offs, and more pointedly, to what extent is a person accustomed to being deprived? They might be able to take a lot more deprivation, whereas another person in the same type of circumstance might not be so patient. I think that's where you see a lot of people who say, hey, listen, I need to be happy. If I can't find that,
00:28:00
Speaker
you know, with my spouse, then they split up and find someone else. You know, I think it's about making an effort, a collaborative effort to
00:28:14
Speaker
have a situation that satisfactory to everyone, but sometimes that's not possible to do. Well, some people question whether it's possible, whether it is possible. You know, this may be a different podcast. Yeah, I think so. But there's a there's a question about for whom is traditional monogamous dyadic marriage suitable? And for whom is it not? I think one of the terms is psychosexuality, how restrictive or how unrestricted is your psychosexuality?
00:28:43
Speaker
And that's a place where you could see a mismatch, someone who's more open with someone who's more restricted. Right. But there is probably a reason that that open person chose someone who is more restricted or more conservative. Right. So they didn't choose someone who was like, yeah, we'll just keep it open for the next 40 years. Right. The things that bring people together aren't always the things that keep them together. True. So boundaries change over time and they need to be renegotiated.
00:29:11
Speaker
Yes, communication is very important. Right. I think communication is important and letting people know what your process is. I can think of an example of this, like, let's say people, you know, group of girlfriends, one person starts dating someone a little more seriously.
00:29:31
Speaker
maybe, and maybe previously these girlfriends have shared everything with each other, including, you know, intimate moments with hookups or whatever else.
Cultural Influences on Boundaries
00:29:42
Speaker
And I do think that there becomes a, you know, there comes a point where people might decide that they want to keep things private maybe because they really see a future with this person and it's going to be awkward to have everyone know stuff. So to say like, Hey, I normally would share these details, but
00:30:01
Speaker
you know, for whatever reason, my instinct is telling me to hold back.
00:30:06
Speaker
Um, or it doesn't feel right for my new boyfriend because he's a pretty private person. And so I'm not gonna, I'm not going to share things that I think he wouldn't want me to share. Right. Right. And friends might say, Oh, I totally understand. That's so wonderful for you. Or they might say like, Oh, come on. Like you're being too serious. Well, there's a boundary that can be kept or not kept, but when a boundary isn't kept does, it's a kind of a microaggression.
00:30:32
Speaker
right to the other person you know to your subjectivity when you say listen you know I know I know I used to share everything but you think things things are different now and the other person is dismissive or invalidating that that's a microaggression. It certainly can be and I think that we should only have to say that really once ideally and that it's probably good practice for us just in terms of
00:30:58
Speaker
you know navigating new relationships in the world to to say to other people like don't share anything that you're not really comfortable sharing and don't push people to give you information or do something that they don't really want to do because it's just going to end up
00:31:13
Speaker
in resentment. Yeah, it could be about the partner too. It could be like, listen, I'm fine talking about all the details of our relationship, but the guy I'm with doesn't feel that way, or the woman I'm with doesn't feel that way, or the person I'm with doesn't feel that way, and I'm respecting that boundary. And then you're modeling also something important, I think, for people who might have a harder time, saying a lot of times people know where their boundary is, and they know what feels right,
00:31:40
Speaker
and what feels wrong, but it is hard to speak up. What do you think the core feelings are that make it hard for people to speak up when they know? Yeah, I think it's fear of some sort of retribution, fear of disappointing someone else being difficult or demanding. Fear of being perceived as quote unquote difficult. Right.
00:32:04
Speaker
not knowing how someone will react. Fear the unknown. I guess not being confident with that skill, the skill of feeling comfortable navigating boundaries. I wonder about shame and guilt as well around boundaries. I think that's tough.
00:32:25
Speaker
hopefully, the boundary is set up in a way to minimize shame and guilt. But we need to really believe that we have permission to do what's right for ourselves in order to stick to that boundary, right? Otherwise, it feels like you're letting someone down unnecessarily. Yeah, no, I think that's a good thought. I think a lot of times when people don't say something, they, yes, they're afraid, but they also
00:32:53
Speaker
feel anticipatory guilt. They don't want to quote unquote make the other person feel bad. And that is a really problematic way of being in the world. Yeah, but listen, a lot of people are taught to put others needs before their own. That's an important need of one's own. To not put one's own needs before others.
00:33:16
Speaker
Exactly. And that's something I think that can be learned actually in therapy, and it can be learned just by practicing. Well, there's a lot of, yeah, I agree with you, but I think there's more to say, though, about learning that type of philosophy, right, or morality. Yeah.
00:33:37
Speaker
which is often associated with certain cultural or religious upbringings of being self-sacrificing. In fact, it's sort of more common than not.
Managing Relationships with Boundary Issues
00:33:47
Speaker
I don't know, I can't think of a culture or religious background that encourages people to have like a healthy balance between oneself and others. Maybe there's some religion
00:33:59
Speaker
Maybe there's some Eastern philosophies that that come from that point of view, but religion, more often than not, highlights self sacrifice sort of for the good of the whole, which of course has some evolutionary value. Maybe.
00:34:13
Speaker
I don't know. Certainly good for the community. I guess so. And there's a certain age of where people are more likely to give their lives for a cause. You know I mean literally like developmentally there's a window stereotypically with younger males where they're willing to die for a cause and you could argue that that's at least partially evolutionarily driven
00:34:37
Speaker
And, you know, and that from a survival of the species point of view, they're more expendable or more replaceable, which is sad and unfortunate if it's true. But, you know, moral value systems typically sort of preach self sacrifice, I think, or sometimes they preach kind of radical self self interest as well. But again, it's not typical of communal religions, which usually talk about taking care of the other, which
00:35:04
Speaker
I think is fundamentally what learned to keep good boundaries is not just about self interest. It's also about taking care of everyone. Yeah, it's about the community. Yeah, I understand that. But I think it's also
00:35:20
Speaker
up to the individual because if we don't take care of ourselves, then we rely on other people to do that. Well, I thought of mothering. There's research that shows that caregivers who have unconditional care, and that includes mothers as well as some, I think the research I read included some clergy, like highly compassionate, don't feel pain the same way. At least the subjective experience of discomfort is much lower. Right.
00:35:50
Speaker
is not necessarily a good thing. I mean, it might be a good thing, let's say, transiently while you're recovering from delivery or C-section and also need to nurse a baby. But I don't think it's healthy for the long run. At some point, that needs to recalibrate. Yeah, I agree. Well, some people can sort of get stuck in some developmental stage.
00:36:15
Speaker
Well, of course, there's a lot more to say. I think we covered, you know, usually before our podcasts, we talk about what we want to cover and then we have some topics in front of us. And I feel like we covered a lot of the important ones. I thought of some of the more colloquial things, the casual things, like when people say TMI.
00:36:36
Speaker
And is that a joke or does it really mean kind of like, I didn't I didn't really want to hear that. Yeah, I think that goes to being clear about communication. Right. On the other hand, sometimes you can be direct and the other person feels like chastised. Right. If you're sometimes I'm accused of being what's the expression. It's not high strung.
00:36:56
Speaker
uptight uptight yeah and so that's a relative thing we talked about it in our last podcast like one person who's like pretty chill and like oh they're 10 minutes late it's no big deal and the other person is like my time matters to me it's like one to one person that other person is uptight and to the into the uptight quote-unquote person the more chill person is irresponsible and inconsiderate and you know yeah so you know that kind of leads into the final thing that
00:37:25
Speaker
you wanted to touch on, which is really what to do when people consistently fail to respect those boundaries and how to sort of lay things out and maybe exit a relationship that doesn't work.
00:37:43
Speaker
I think it's good to have clear boundaries around consistent boundary crossings so that they don't sort of explode. So it's very good to say, I'm feeling uncomfortable, you know, kind of I'm giving you a warning. Yeah, we really need to work on this.
00:37:59
Speaker
And then you have to know what you're willing to tolerate sort of, is it three strikes and you're out you can tell the person listen. If this keeps happening. And here's, you know, here's a deadline if it happens four more times. I think we're gonna have to take a break if it keeps happening.
00:38:14
Speaker
three more times, two more times, right? Whatever it is, you need to know. If it keeps happening past like, you know, August, if this keeps going on, you know, I think we're really going to need to talk about whether we can still be friends. And you can say it in a loving way. You can say it in a loving way. And you can also say, Hey, listen, I need to take care of myself. And this is not healthy for me. So I can't, you know, continue on like this either. We can make a change and you can respect the boundaries or, you know,
00:38:43
Speaker
I have to do what I need to do for myself. Yeah. And it's also because I do care about our friendship and I would like, I would like to keep being friends. Right. I think most, most often though, people kind of just let things take their natural course and they don't usually have those explicit conversations. I think it depends on what it is. If people really care about their friendship or they really care about their relationship, then they'll look at it and say, well, I don't know why it's so hard for me to respect that boundary and I'm going to
00:39:12
Speaker
do some work around it. Well, I think you're right. Part of the time I could push back.
00:39:18
Speaker
on the if people really care because they may just not know how to manage boundaries so you could care but not know what to do right yeah and then hopefully you you know you've listened to a good podcast on it or something and then you say well oh that was really great like i was kind of just letting that relationship get worse and worse but now i feel like i can say something compassionate and and kind
00:39:42
Speaker
to my friend and say, hey, you know, I really value the relationship. I hope we'll be friends for a long, long, long, long time. Is it okay with you if I bring up a couple of things that sometimes they rub me the wrong way? Right. And then you see how the person responds. That's not how I usually operate. That's what I advise. All right. Good. Well, I think that's good advice.
00:40:04
Speaker
I'm glad we ended up talking about this. I know I was a little apprehensive at first, but I think you brought it up and then you were like, I don't know if I want to talk about and you respected that, which I appreciated. But I said, we don't have to talk about it. And then then you seemed OK.
00:40:20
Speaker
Yeah, that was kind of what you needed to hear. Right, exactly. What were you saying? Yeah, I just didn't want to feel pressured into it because I wasn't sure what I wanted. The must do a podcast today. It doesn't matter how you're feeling. We agreed ahead of time. I know, but it's just so uncomfortable for me to be committed to it. But I'm glad that it worked out. I want to thank everyone who listened in.
00:40:46
Speaker
If yeah, if you have questions or you there's part of this that you want us to discuss more. That's yeah, that's definitely what I was going to say, though. That's that's a funny one when someone suggests something and then later on, they're not in the same place. And we think they were inconsistent, but actually they're not inconsistent. They just have normal feelings. Right. Or their mood just changes rapidly.
00:41:09
Speaker
Well, yeah, but I mean, I, you know, I don't, I don't, I think that's usually not the case, but you know, that's the attribution people make another podcast, but yeah, definitely reach out, let us know what you think positive feedback suggestions, guest ideas. I don't know. We're occasionally getting some messages from people, but I think it would be great to get even more. Yeah. Unless they're critical.
00:41:34
Speaker
You can find us on Instagram and we would love any reviews or ratings. Mostly what we're grateful for is your time. Yes. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to Dornop comments. We're committed to bringing you new episodes with great guests. Please take a moment to share your thoughts. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. You can also find us on Instagram at Dornop comments.
00:42:02
Speaker
Remember this podcast is for general information purposes only and does not constitute the practice of psychiatry or any other type of medicine. This is not a substitute for professional and individual treatment services and no doctor patient relationship is formed. If you feel that you may be in crisis, please don't delay in securing mental health treatment. Thank you for listening.