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Gongfu Crew S01E13 - Season Summary with Daniel
234 Plays4 months ago
Episode no. 13 is a special episode: I share the insights and perspectives I gained from talking to all the interesting teachers and practitioners I had on the podcast during season 1. I also share my thoughts on what's next for the podcast.
If you want to stay up-to-date regarding the podcast, check the podcast's instagram account gongfu.crew, as well as my personal account gongfu.munich.
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Transcript
Introduction to Kung Fu Crew Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
The Gongkuo Crew podcast, bringing together practitioners of various styles and schools and their unique prospectus to explore the world of Chinese martial arts.
Reflections on Season One
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to the next episode of the Kung Fu Crew podcast. This will be episode 13 and it's a bit of a special episode because it's going to be the closing episode for season one.
Journey Through Chinese Martial Arts Styles
00:00:26
Speaker
um So we had with this with this episode 13 in total, the first one was just a teaser. So we had 12 episodes where we introduced specific styles and training methods, specific schools of Chinese martial arts. and I think we covered quite a bit of ground and it was for me even for me personally it was quite exciting actually to talk to these great people and my idea was to provide you with a bit of a summary um as to what I as the the podcast told podcast host what I learned from these interviews and because it was quite a bit
00:01:06
Speaker
And one of the goals of the podcast was also to you know identify both commonalities as well as differences between the different ah styles of Chinese martial arts. um
Common Paradigms in Training Methods
00:01:18
Speaker
Obviously everything is filtered through you know individual perspectives and choices. so So when I talk to one person, one representative of, for example, Xin Yichuan, it doesn't mean that that person is speaking for all of these different ah teachers and practitioners of whatever style of Xin Yichuan each person is practicing.
00:01:38
Speaker
um But still, you can actually see certain ideas and certain um let's say paradigms behind the training methods of specific styles. But you can also see a lot of commonalities and a lot of overlap, which I found very interesting. so The goal of this episode is to to give you um or two to present these insights to you, at least what I considered inside what was insightful for me. um and also you know serve as a This episode also serves as a gateway into season 2. There might be some you know special episodes that I'm going to ah for a push in between the two seasons, but the idea is to actually dive deeper into some of the let's say controversial or interesting aspects
00:02:24
Speaker
um that came out of season one with you know maybe the same people, maybe also with some other people, but dive a bit little bit deeper and maybe also get several people to share their their thoughts and insights on the same topic. um We will see whether that's feasible
Inspiration Behind Choosing Martial Arts Styles
00:02:42
Speaker
or not. But for now, let's let's talk about the interesting aspects of season one. And um I can't cover everything, obviously. you know This is just what stood out to me. um and One of the things that pretty much everyone mentioned, or almost every everyone, was, and I found it quite interesting, when I asked people what got you to to train and study this specific style that you mainly identify with, or at least the style that they presented with in the podcast.
00:03:14
Speaker
Pretty much everybody mentioned that there was something about the way the teacher moved. It was a crucial aspect in their choice to learn from them. And it was usually um about being very powerful powerful or having a very powerful way of moving. And in some cases that even changed people's people's understanding of martial arts and physical movement in general. I'm thinking of Rosa May. She mentioned this. She already had a lot of other ah training under her belt, like Eskrima and and os she also did modern Wushu, but you know lots of different stuff.
00:03:46
Speaker
And then when she actually got into Tong Baichuan with her teacher, she she said that it really changed the way she thought about power generation and movement in general. Nabil mentioned this with Chen Yu, and also I have a lot of access to Nabil and his thinking obviously because I'm learning from him, but I know that it's definitely true true for him. ah Derek, Derek Notman, also mentioned it with his teacher. Paul Rogers hinted at
Power Generation and Training Techniques
00:04:13
Speaker
it. But I think it was there with a lot of people that, you know, the the way people move shows a lot about how they approach movement in general, but specifically also martial arts. And it seems ah kind of a
00:04:28
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yeah let's Let's say a unique ah value proposition or a unique selling point of Chinese martial arts that there are a lot of very smart, very interesting and very effective ways of power generation in those training methods. The other thing that people mentioned was that their teachers were able to explain everything, meaning every small detail. Nothing was superfluous, nothing was just like, oh, you know, this is a nice ornament, whatever. and Again, Nabil mentioned this with Chenyue, but also Jislan specifically talked about this with his Hungar teacher. Again, a lot of people mentioned this.
00:05:04
Speaker
um that The great teachers, they they really think about everything they do, everything has purpose, everything is meaningful, um which I found another very interesting commonality. And I think the part about powerful movement in general, it connects to a very interesting topic that merits further investigation. um I already mentioned power generation as a unique selling proposition of Chinese martial arts. And I think this often correlates with the inclusion of Nei Gong or Gong Fa training methods, whatever you want to call it. People have different terms for this because I guess different traditions do seem to handle this differently. Byron, for example, Byron Jacobs mentioned Gong Fa as an inte and integral part of his Xingyi training, but he also did mention specific exercises.
00:05:55
Speaker
Now I could relate to this because it seems to be very close to Chenyu's Taiji Chan where everything is integrated but then you know you have specific exercises to develop certain qualities and then you reintroduce it into the rest of the training. Now there does seem to be a like almost complete overlap in some traditions. I mean the way Paul Rogers and paul roger described his I Chuan um didn't seem like they have specific exercises for Neigung or Kungfa, it's just everything they do basically has that purpose. And the same seems to be true for Derek's Shiniluchen. I guess in some case in some ways maybe Shiniluchen is
00:06:33
Speaker
is almost exclusively Kung Fa.
Differences Between Northern and Southern Styles
00:06:35
Speaker
It's very, very raw in in a certain sense, but um it's all about powerful movement, power generation. um But Will, that was quite interesting. The first interview that we did um in Tanglangchuan in Praying Mantis, at least the way Will described it, and there seemed to be separate traditions. um So he said, yeah, you know, Nei Gong, that's a different training method. It doesn't mean obviously that that Praying Mantis doesn't have power generation, but the way they think about it, I don't know, he Will never mentioned the term gongfa and when he was talking about neigong or qigong then that was actually something separate, something that some practitioners would do while others would, you know, they might not be interested in it.
00:07:19
Speaker
Now the southern styles mostly seem to integrate this, so there there seems to be a lot of structure work right from the beginning. So Gislav for example mentioned this idea of reinforcement, reinforcing the structure. um When I talked to Philippi he was talking a lot about structural aspects right from the get-go, you know the way they stand, the the closed position, and there seems to be a lot of conditioning not just in the sense of oh you know I do strength training and then we do hitting practice but conditioning in the sense of or you need to have a strong powerful structure and certain aspects like breathing and you know working with intention seem to come later in the process. um It has always been my impression that southern styles are a bit more methodical about this than some northern schools.
00:08:06
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it's It's interesting though because the separation of internal and external that seems to make more sense in in the northern styles for some reason. and It's probably ah too too broad of a generalization but it is kind of of northern origin because it came up in in Beijing this idea of like oh we have internal and external styles And I don't know, maybe though these so-called internal styles were highlighted because they deviated a little bit from the usual approach of many other northern martial arts. Again, it's probably too simplistic. There are just too many different traditions in both northern and southern China.
00:08:43
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But it's still quite interesting because very few practitioners of Southern martial arts were actually consulted or included in that movement which which happened in Beijing, which is in in Northern China. right There were very few people of of Southern martial arts actually included in that process.
00:09:03
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Now that brings us to another aspect, the historical dimension. i I kind of excluded the historical perspective from the first episodes because it's kind of a hot topic and honestly if I'm interested in history I would rather talk to historians. Now martial arts history is a very specific subject because not a lot of historians actually are actually really interested in this.
Challenges of Modernizing Traditional Martial Arts
00:09:29
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But there is a difference between people who you know just repeat stories they heard from their teachers and people who've actually done research.
00:09:36
Speaker
um So the historical dimension that came out, though, out of these first interviews, which I thought was quite interesting, ah Paul Rogers, for example, mentioned that his own teacher relayed stories about how people practiced in the 30s and 40s. So it's not about the you know the origin of the martial arts or whatever. It was just that back then um a lot of stuff was happening in the parks, you know public parks, and they were full of martial arts training groups. He mentioned that sometimes they would even fight for their own space. and and and This has been going down with a sharp decline in recent decades and especially the last few years. um I think that's that's not just a subjective view. it's it's pretty much i mean you You can see it when you go there.
00:10:20
Speaker
There's still a lot of stuff happening in the parks in China, but it's mostly old people or older people. um For young people, it's not that interesting anymore, um which is not surprising in many ways. Back then, martial arts was one of the few past times people had. I mean, you could go to the park and you know do martial arts, or you could go singing and dancing. But there wasn't much other stuff around. Even back then, in the 30s and 40s, not everybody was literate, so even reading was not not an option for many people. um There was no other form of entertainment, and people might have a lot of time, especially when they didn't have like high pressure, ah time-consuming jobs.
00:11:01
Speaker
um Now, time is very scarce. you know You have modern efficient jobs, you have access to a lot of entertainment, a lot of recreation and training opportunities. um And this then actually connects to something else. And this is something that a lot of people, they didn't didn't actually call it that, but that was the impression that I got. that sometimes, or in some aspects, Chinese martial arts have a rather weak didactical approach, especially when it comes to partner training. Maybe there is this heavy emphasis on power generation, on body mechanics, structure, and my own experience is also that they are pretty good, or at a lot of the systems are very good at teaching you the the solo part of practice, and then when it comes to partner training, it's very much chaos.
00:11:47
Speaker
um I also remember Carson Stausberg, he mentioned that some of the curricula are just very very expansive. yeah I mean, I think this is also especially true for the Iseong, Bagua Jang or Bagua in general, but it's true. I mean some of the Chinese martial arts are just, they take up a lot of time to learn just in terms of learning the cur curriculum is already very time-consuming and Pretty much all of the styles try to cover everything from kicking and striking to wrestling joint locking clinching now there's no ground fighting really, but it's it's it's vast it's a lot of stuff and Some of it is then also deliberately slow or exclude exercise that might make it a lot easier to understand and conceptualize the training Rosa may mention this
00:12:34
Speaker
She said, I mean, why not just start hitting things early on? I mean, Tongbei Tran is very heavy on striking, right? It's just the way the training system is built. And from she she brought in that perspective from her escrima training, Filipino martial arts, where it's very common you know to you hit sticks against, so you know, partners use sticks to to hit each other, not not the people, but the sticks. um But also, you you know, you just have this idea of like, oh, you need to learn how to hit something, to to judge the distance, to get the timing right, to make sure that that your form is is proper even when there's something that is getting in the way. And of course that, I mean, that totally makes sense for for unarmed fighting as well. And then she mentioned that some of the Tongbei people were adamant in refusing to introduce hitting practice early on.
00:13:23
Speaker
which is kind of weird because it makes it much easier to conceptualize what you're doing when you tell people like, hey, this is the application. Practice this a little bit. Now you understand what you're doing. Now you go back to solo practice. And the thought that came up for me was you know when you take this together with what Paul described you know back then, how it was practiced, maybe it is time to rethink the basic didactical approach of Chinese martial arts. to adjust it to modern society where you can't just hang around the park for three hours every day hoping to make progress. Because when it's more of a social thing, you know that kind of your, your, your buddies are all at the park and you go there and meet them and then you just hang around and you do something.
00:14:07
Speaker
yeah then maybe you don't need a very smart, efficient, de-dactical process because you're spending a lot of time there anyway, you're bound to to assimilate or just yeah digest a lot of information and then you know you you practice and it's fine. But in modern times that may not be the most interesting approach. And and I think this is probably, it's also, um I have a certain bias because I also change boxing, European boxing on the side.
00:14:38
Speaker
and To be honest, they are very very smart in the way they approach partner training and it's very structured and it's very efficient. It does fit into modern lifestyles much easier than this idea of oh you have a very integrated practice but it takes you years to learn the curriculum so you know just hang around for hours and then you'll get it and then at some point you can start your your effective training. That's not very smart.
Martial Arts vs Combat Sports Effectiveness
00:15:02
Speaker
um There have been approaches or had there have been, I mean this is not a new thing actually, ah Vincent May, he gave some insights into the Taiwanese Wutan branch of martial arts and it seems to me that the the Wutan people, not to confuse with Wutang, that's a different thing, the Wutan people seem to continue the spirit or they uphold the spirit of the Jinggu Association.
00:15:25
Speaker
which goes back decades. and Even back then they already tried to modernize, standardize or systematize traditional martial arts. And this might be an interesting approach. We might also have a special episode where we'll talk to Vincent about an online project that he's currently um getting up and running. And I find it quite interesting. Now, it's not the only approach, or maybe not the like the specific Wuhan approach may not be suitable for everything and everyone, but I do think that it's quite interesting that this thought is not really new. Even Wang Xiangjai, the guy who founded Ichuan, already had ideas like that. And honestly, Ichuan seems to be one of the more systematic approaches to Chinese martial arts training.
00:16:16
Speaker
and I think this entire discussion may also partially explain the difficult and and often convoluted discussions about Chinese martial arts and modern combat sports. Many of the people I talk to also engage in combat sports practice. So Will does Brazilian jiu-jitsu on the side. She's practiced as in teacher Sander. Bayern also has been doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu for some time. i don't I don't think he mentioned that in the podcast, but but I know that he does. um Obviously, Carson has done a lot of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and also wrestling. He he did mention that. Philipp has done lots of other training, specifically mentioned boxing.
00:16:56
Speaker
um I found Derek's perspective also quite interesting here. um He had done a lot of Muay Thai, among other things, before going deep into Shini Luka Chan. And he framed that as getting it out of his system with it meaning, o as that at least is my interpretation, it meaning the the desire to learn fighting. And he posited that many people who engage in martial arts, especially internal master at martial arts, seem to hope that they can conquer their own insecurities regarding fighting and confrontation via a cognitive route, you know, thinking about it. And of course they will never work. And yes, practicing combat sports could actually help overcome this insecurity. It may be the maybe the the hard approach,
00:17:42
Speaker
But it does kind of make sense.
Insecurities and Philosophy in Martial Arts
00:17:43
Speaker
I mean, there's something in there that really resonated with me because there's a reason why people practice martial arts rather than, you know, practice dancing or or some other kind of sports. And I mean, it's not they' not mutually exclusive. I also do other sports. stuff I love swimming, for example. But I think the the insecurity that observation is spot on, there is some kind of insecurity that often motivates us to go into martial arts. And that insecurity has something to do with maybe feeling literally not not safe and secure in in your environment. Or maybe it's this more, especially for men, this more fundamental idea of like, oh, could I hold up my own? If if I got into a physical confrontation, am I am i strong and and and independent enough
00:18:31
Speaker
Stuff like that. um And it's true in internal martial arts you have a lot of people who try to think their way out of that conundrum, which is not going to work. now What I found really interesting is that Derek also implied that training methods like Xinyi Lรผrichuan, which is what he was most familiar with, but I mean he also practiced Bago and other stuff, when he said, yeah, they they were never really meant to teach you the basics of fighting. They develop a physicality that will give you an edge in physical confrontation, but it does also take quite a long time to fully implement it.
00:19:05
Speaker
which I think is true, at the same time I personally feel that framing it that way um kind of dismisses the desire to train for physical confrontation. Because
Building a Martial Arts Community
00:19:15
Speaker
getting it out of the system kind of means to successfully purge yourself of something that is undesirable, like a virus. um I mean it's an interesting thought, you know, maybe some of the methods were indeed never intended to teach like basic fighting because there are a lot of stories about famous teachers who when they were learning started out with, you know, something like basic Changchuan stuff and and and wrestling, you know, kind of very common, very basic forms of martial arts practice.
00:19:45
Speaker
and then they would switch to more specific styles where the teachers would immediately teach them more conceptually demanding things. Gislar also alluded to this a little bit stating that his teacher had no interest in taking on new students because he was tired of teaching people the basics. And as someone who's also teaching a bit on the side, my new martial arts, I can relate to that. It it does kind of make sense. And even even the people I interviewed, very, very few of them started out martial arts with the thing that they talked about in the interview then. I mean, also, for example, Russ Smith with his wu zu chuan, he had a lot of goju ryu, a karate practice um in his in his past already. So, you know, people, or also, um um I remember Philip also talking, he he had done a lot of Wing Chun and then moved into into Southern praying manta stuff.
00:20:38
Speaker
So obviously, um you already then have a bit of understanding. I mean, maybe sometimes maybe the practice wasn't that great and then you thought, okay, I need something more meaningful, something deeper, which is usually how it goes. that That's when you find a really interesting, knowledgeable teacher and you think, oh yeah, this is it. But still, um it does kind of make sense. Maybe some of the styles also skip over this basic practice, especially regarding partner practice, um because it's kind of tiresome to teach beginners. And yeah, some of the teachers were maybe just, I mean guess, lazy in some way. Well, they were just they were just tired of of doing the basic stuff. and And they found it much more interesting to to immediately train with people who already had a basic understanding of martial arts and of fighting.
00:21:28
Speaker
Now, what almost all of people all of the people I talked to had in common was a desire to establish more of a community across different styles and training methods. And yeah, maybe we should focus more on the commonalities of Chinese martial arts, while still acknowledging and respecting the different ideas that define the different traditions. You know, people gravitate from one extreme to the other. Either they say, yeah, you know, this is completely different and so unique. And this is a ah sickness that you have in the Taiji community. where People say like, oh, this is so specifically Taiji. And then you talk to someone from another martial arts tradition and they say, yeah, this is a concept that we have as well, because some of these concepts are super basic.
00:22:10
Speaker
um At the same time, you have then the the other extreme where people say, yeah, it's all the same. It doesn't matter what you train. The end result is always the same, which of course is not true. It's not true for combat sports either. like Yes, Muay Thai people can also punch and and strike, but it's different from what a boxer does. So specific training methods still lead to specific results and they might be different. But I do agree that, I guess in the past, focusing on the differences has brought a lot of strife and and confrontation and conflict into Chinese martial arts, which may not be necessary at all. And I mean, like I mentioned in the beginning, one of the hopes behind this podcast ah was actually to bring people together. And
Conclusion and Future Engagement
00:22:56
Speaker
that's why
00:22:58
Speaker
Like I said, I'm hoping that in the coming second season we will be able to dive deeper into some of these topics. And yes, these were just some of the ones that that interested me personally the most. We will also talk about others. um But I'm hoping to be able to invite some of the guys from the first season back to talk about this. Maybe even in groups of three or four people, you know, have a group discussion um and thus establish this stronger community of Chinese martial arts. At least that is my hope. um And like I said, I might interject one or two special episodes before the start of season two. um I won't give out any details yet because it's it's not fully planned. But um once season two starts, i' I'm going to um ah maybe also have another like a teaser episode like where I introduce the idea. i ah One of the big challenges will be the difference in will be the differences in time zone.
00:23:53
Speaker
So that might be a bit challenging but we'll see we'll see how it goes. I think it would be quite interesting because um not too many and podcasts about martial arts have have been doing it that way and I think it could be quite interesting and quite insightful. So I hope that you stick around. I hope that you are interested in in these topics as well. And yeah, hopefully also the the little summary that I gave you um was interesting and and insightful. And yeah, maybe see you guys back in season two.
00:24:26
Speaker
Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you had a great time. The next episode will air next month. And until then, feel free to check out our Instagram account where we also feature some of the people we talk to, other practitioners and teachers of Chinese martial arts and anything else that might be interesting in the world of Kung Fu. Thanks, take care and hope to meet again.