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To Friend or Not to Friend
160 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Fara and Grant talk about ways that people make, grow, and end friendships. They discuss the anxiety around reaching out to new people, the difficult conversations that can come with holding friends accountable, and how we might part ways when we feel wronged in existing friendships.
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts: Dr. Farah White & Dr. Grant Brenner
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello, I'm Dr. Farah White. And I'm Dr. Grant Brenner. We're psychiatrists and therapists in private practice in New York.
Origins of the Podcast: Exploring 'Doorknob Comments'
00:00:10
Speaker
We started this podcast in 2019 to draw attention to a phenomenon called the doorknob comment. Doorknob comments are important things we all say from time to time, just as we're leaving the office, sometimes literally hand on the doorknob.
00:00:23
Speaker
Doorknob comments happen not only during therapy, but also in everyday life.
Hesitation in Sharing Feelings
00:00:27
Speaker
The point is that sometimes we aren't sure how to express the deeply meaningful things we're feeling, thinking, and experiencing. Maybe we're afraid to bring certain things out into the open or are on the fence about wanting to discuss them. Sometimes we know we've got something we're unsure about sharing and are keeping it to ourselves. And sometimes we surprise ourselves by what comes out.
00:00:51
Speaker
Hi, I'm Farrah White here with my co-host, Grant Brenner. Hi. Thanks for tuning in today to doorknob comments.
Focus on Friendships
00:00:59
Speaker
We are going to talk about a topic that doesn't get too much airtime in psychiatry and psychology, and I really think it should. And Grant, I know you think it should.
00:01:11
Speaker
We were inspired by a blog article that Grant wrote that did really well on sort of how to end friendships and the different ways that people end friendships. He looked at some research about that, but I sort of wanted to take it back to how people navigate friendships, what that means for their life and lifespan and overall emotional wellbeing, because we know that our relationships are really important to our quality of life.
The Gap in Friendship Training for Therapists
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah. Well, let me ask you when you say like people, it doesn't get enough attention. What do you mean? Cause not to be contrarian, right? I think people bring this up a lot in therapy sessions and you know, in social, uh, social settings, you know, having friends, what would you like to see? Like what would be on your wish list if therapy and psychiatry addressed friendship more?
00:02:04
Speaker
Because I guess my concern is we think about, okay, interpersonal skills and people having a vibrant and fulfilling social life, all of that. Those are the things that come up in individual therapy, but we have people that are specially trained in couples therapy. We have people that are specially trained in family therapy and family systems therapy.
00:02:27
Speaker
to help people work through certain things. And I don't think the same exists for friendships. When it comes to friendship, it's like the Reddit thread, am I the asshole?
Ways to Cultivate Friendships
00:02:40
Speaker
It's like you crowdsource this information about behavior or expectations, and there's nothing that's really outlined.
00:02:48
Speaker
We're often recommending that people like socialize more and then, you know, have a lot of conversations about how to do that, right? Do you join like, you know, go to a poetry reading? Do you join an athletic club at your local place? Do you
00:03:02
Speaker
you know, do you do something online or do you have a friend and do you sort of ask them out like a friendship, you know, date? Like, do you want to go on a friendship date? It gets pretty awkward.
The Concept of 'Friendship Coaches'
00:03:13
Speaker
I do think there's a lot of conversation about it. It hadn't occurred to me until you said, hey, it doesn't get enough attention, but I looked it up and there there are, quote unquote, friendship coaches. OK, all right. But I don't you know, I don't know if there's like a license. Sure, licensure. I don't think so.
00:03:31
Speaker
And it certainly wasn't a clear part of my training. As you said, the role of relationships and friendships is super important. And where I trained, there was a psychiatrist who founded the Interpersonal Psychoanalytic School, Harry Stack Sullivan.
'Chumship' and Teenage Development
00:03:45
Speaker
He talked about the critical developmental role of chumship, kind of teenage relationships. So what would that look
Evaluating Supportive vs. Negative Friendships
00:03:54
Speaker
like? If you were like a friendship therapist, what would you be doing?
00:03:59
Speaker
Well, I would be trying to assess how important, like think about when you're working with someone. There are some people where I know who they're coming in contact with pretty frequently and names that come up that are familiar. And then there are some people who really like keep it so far outside of their therapy and they don't realize that certain things like that can affect their mood.
00:04:22
Speaker
And how I think it should look is, this is what I say when I'm first meeting people, like, well, who are your biggest supports?
00:04:30
Speaker
And, you know, are there people that sort of have the opposite effect? I don't want to get into like toxicity and all of that, but especially with friends that we make in a certain situation, whether it's middle school, high school, college, we just take for granted that that person's going to be in our life and don't evaluate and reevaluate or have conversations about it in the same way that we do with romantic relationships and even with family relationships.
00:05:00
Speaker
Does that make sense?
Categorizing Friendships
00:05:02
Speaker
I mean, it makes sense, but I think I'm struggling a little bit because I'm not sure if I see it the same way. Okay, so what do you see? Well, I think people talk about friendship a lot. And I think it comes up a lot.
00:05:14
Speaker
you know, in therapy. But there is something, I think, elusive about the subject of friendship. I think I can kind of agree there that it's not as well understood. You don't see as much in the popular culture on it. Everyone kind of knows it's important. You know, in terms of how actually really important friendship is, from that point of view, I think it is sort of under addressed. And the research on it isn't that sturdy either.
00:05:44
Speaker
you know, I track the friendship research and that's where I found this paper on ending friendships. Reminded me of that song by Simon and Garfunkel, 50 ways to leave your lover. This was like seven ways that people and friendships, but there aren't a lot of researchers looking at it.
Definitions and Perceptions of Friendship
00:06:00
Speaker
I think this particular paper was like done by the same individual that did the last couple of ones I saw on friendship. So I think it's under researched.
00:06:09
Speaker
And I think people have clear ideas about romantic relationships and family roles. I don't think we have like a taxonomy of friendship, like a system for categorizing different types of friendship. So I do think a lot of it is vague, sort of maybe intentionally. Maybe because I think friendship is one of those amorphous kind of things that is always changing. And that's why I think it's important to
00:06:35
Speaker
sort of have that even just for ourselves. Yes, we can share it, but like I always say there are some people who are going to be lifelong friends who we grew up with who feel more like siblings where no matter what happens, there is affection and concern there, but that person might not be the one that we sit down to lunch with every day. We might actually be spending more time with colleagues
00:07:04
Speaker
classmates. Well, the term, you know, confidant comes to mind, which is maybe a certain kind of friend. I'm looking at different definitions of friend. You know, here's a few. Okay. A person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically exclusive of sexual or family relations. Okay. And then there's also like the social media, like a friend, which is
00:07:29
Speaker
Maybe one of the reasons that the concept of friendship has become hazier because we use the term to describe just a digital connection online, which sometimes, you know, reflects a quote unquote deeper friendship.
Validity of Online Friendships
00:07:42
Speaker
Um, it was recently my birthday and you know, a couple of people reached out on social media, um, and sent me like, you know, DMS and people have never met, but I've known for years and we've had meaningful exchanges and a couple of them are really very heartfelt. Like it's really been meaningful to follow you. So, um, it does reflect that kind of the meaningfulness, like a friendship is meant is meaningful and exists over time.
00:08:09
Speaker
There's a couple of other things. There's one who's attached to another by affection or esteem. And then there's the concept of acquaintance. That's another definition. And acquaintance isn't really a friend, right? And then there's someone who isn't hostile, which friends can be hostile, right? But is he a friend or an enemy? Yeah. So, you know, the concept of friendship means lots and lots of different things.
00:08:35
Speaker
It's much, much broader than the idea of a romantic relationship. Right. Although romantic relationships now I think have been broadened and maybe in some ways friendship and the definition thereof needs a little bit of narrowing because that can sometimes be confusing. I mean, it sounds like you've had
00:08:58
Speaker
real and meaningful interactions with people online. And I know you do a lot of work there and probably are truly connected to some of those people. But I think there are other situations where, you know, people may have known each other in real life at a certain time. They remain connected on social media one way or another. But I don't know if that means they're really, truly friends, I think.
00:09:28
Speaker
Being close to someone requires investment in time and energy. And knowing what really goes on in someone's life, I think social media sometimes gives us a false sense of connection.
00:09:44
Speaker
There's also research that that may be generational.
Types of Friendships by Suzanne Degas-White
00:09:46
Speaker
So people who are generally speaking younger may feel a greater sense of connection online and sort of who am I to say that an online friendship isn't valid. I do think meeting people in person though has a very different type of feel and significance. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's better or worse. I do see that there's some work on different types of friendships.
00:10:10
Speaker
This research from a couple of years ago found there were seven types of friends. Interestingly, there's seven different ways to end friendships. I wonder if they correspond. That'll be the next study. What's the best way to end what kind of friendship? Lifelong friends, best friends, close friends.
00:10:30
Speaker
Social group friends friends you socialize with but with whom you are not particularly close Activity friends friends with whom you engage in specific activities like gym buddies. Yeah friends of convenience The folks with whom you might share a carpool Etc acquaintance friends people at work people you see each day when you're walking your dog, etc
00:10:52
Speaker
And this is from a psychologist named Suzanne Degas-White. No relation, I assume. And I think reviewing some work in social psychology. That's interesting to me. I also think that there are people who, you know, where the friendship changes over time and lifelong friends, maybe not, but close friends and best friends sometimes
00:11:22
Speaker
What changes?
Changing Dynamics in Friendships
00:11:23
Speaker
Yeah, it changes and the same way that activity friends can become close and close friends, you know, might become a little bit more distant depending on what's happening in our lives. Well, yeah, for sure. And I think people do have these thoughts and conversations
00:11:43
Speaker
where they're kind of like, you know, if you have an acquaintance friend, how do you like convert that friend into a close friend, right? If you see someone every day, like it is analogous to, you know, dating someone casually and then having a conversation about whether you're quote unquote serious. But I think there's something about friendship that
00:12:03
Speaker
makes it not as normative to talk about friendship explicitly. Recently, we talked about how people talk about romantic relationships, going from dating to being more serious, and how do people talk about that? And you kind of have to talk about it.
00:12:21
Speaker
I mean you know people maybe they're people who don't talk about it but in general i think there's an idea that with romance like you have to talk about the
Defining and Advancing Friendships
00:12:29
Speaker
relationship and figure out what it is to both of the people friends don't necessarily do that i think unless maybe there's a problem. Maybe i think it's just considered a little more awkward and one thing that's coming to mind is like mom friends and wondering.
00:12:47
Speaker
Well, let's say there's someone that you see at the park every day. There are ways that we come into contact with different people. And how do you take that friendship?
00:12:57
Speaker
To the next level. To the next level, right. Without being creepy. Yeah, I think it would be a little creepy to say, listen, I'd like to get to know you better. Well, it's too formal. But I mean, listen, people do say, oh, I'm really glad that we're friends. Like, I'm really glad we met. And then it's kind of partially symbolized.
00:13:17
Speaker
And then it's kind of like you're testing the waters to see if the other person feels similarly. And if they don't, they can be like, oh yeah, it's been so nice being friends with you. I'll see you next week. And then you don't have to be vulnerable versus if you commit and ask them out on a friendship date. Or it can be like, oh, it's been so great being friends with you. It's like, oh yeah, we should get coffee sometimes. And then it's like, oh no, we're getting coffee now. I don't know. I'm so nervous, right? Because the friendship is moving to the next level.
00:13:47
Speaker
But it's not usually you don't talk about it as clearly, right? No, although with one of my dearest friends from med school, we were in a program together. I would see her in class and think she seemed really cool. And so I very I don't remember exactly how it happened, but I very awkwardly like asked her to have coffee. And it was a little weird now that
00:14:15
Speaker
I know her very well and we did talk about it later and sometimes I think about the first time I met you for supervision and I didn't know you and then I think about that and it's like so weird to me.
00:14:27
Speaker
I think it depends on the individual too, you know, because I think some people are more poised about stuff like that and they don't feel as awkward.
Friendships in Childhood Development
00:14:34
Speaker
So you always have to ask yourself how much of the awkwardness is actually in the relationship and how much of the awkwardness is in my head, right? You know, I suppose if you're more on the insecure sort of preoccupied attachment side of the equation, then people might sort of be worried about, you know, how it comes across and whether they're
00:14:53
Speaker
trying too hard or not enough or missing cues versus someone who's more sort of withdrawn or dismissive, they're probably not going to pursue it. But there's a lot on the line, I think, with friends, you know, in the teenage years and my own experiences.
00:15:08
Speaker
where I had friends as a kid. I always had close friends and I still have close friends from sort of every stage of life, but I was never a quote unquote popular kid. In fact, I was probably liked more than I realized looking back by people who I didn't think I was recognized by, but I was also kind of teased and bullied and I'm a bit of, you know, a less typical type of person.
00:15:37
Speaker
What it left me with is an understanding that friendship is a big deal for people. And if you don't have friends, you feel like something is wrong with you.
00:15:49
Speaker
And if you try to make friends and people kind of laugh at you or reject you, it's really crushing. In some ways it might be harder even than getting rejected for a date because at least with a romantic thing, you can kind of just say, well, you know, it wasn't mutual. So in some sense, I think friendship is maybe a deeper thing.
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah, and I think for kids it feels really important. There's a time, I think, developmentally that kids sort of pull away from their parents and they get very interested and involved in different types of social interactions.
Role of Friendships in Survival and Success
00:16:26
Speaker
Well, and the peer group becomes more important than the family. Exactly, exactly. But I think what's scary, at least to me, about the peer group is that people can be kind of tough and kind of mean.
00:16:40
Speaker
might not realize, I think they don't realize. I know that there was like a movement, an anti-bullying movement, but I think- There's federal laws.
00:16:52
Speaker
Yeah, and federal laws and whatever else, but I think that it's really, really tough for kids to try to navigate that. I think as parents, yeah, we can try to help them through, but it is a painful situation sometimes.
00:17:11
Speaker
It's a definitely learning process and I think there's a strong evolutionary foundation to friendship because you know friendship kind of equates with survival because it's the core of community and especially under threat and like you know in evolutionary times when there's like winter and no heat and food problems you know having friends would be a matter of life or death.
00:17:32
Speaker
And I think the friendship type of relationship is actually in a lot of ways really important for example in the workplace like if you want to be successful in many jobs.
00:17:44
Speaker
there's a very strong correlation with being able to make friends and doing really well. And there's some professions where you're largely kind of isolated, but for example, someone like yourself, like you're really, really good at maintaining relationships. And I think keeping relationships cooking and creating opportunities for people to socialize and make friends. And I think you really recognize the importance of that.
00:18:11
Speaker
You know, and that is correlated with how well you do and how many people refer to you, among other things. Maybe a little bit, although I feel like the reason that I'm like that now is because growing up, it was really hard.
Personal Journey in Valuing Friendships
00:18:26
Speaker
I had a couple of close friends as a kid, not too many.
00:18:31
Speaker
And then I had a lot of trouble with friendships and friend groups in particular. And then I was like, well, this isn't that important. And I was sort of more focused on romantic relationships. And I then ended up kind of looking around and thinking, this is something that's really lacking in my life. It's funny because I'm around people all day.
00:18:57
Speaker
But, you know, I grew up in a house with a big family and I like being around people. And in med school, I decided that it was really important to me to try to devote as much energy as I could to making friends and checking in with them. And also to being a good friend, which I think is another thing that's really hard to do because it means something different to everyone. So I just try to be, you know, I have to do a lot of imagining there.
00:19:27
Speaker
What do you mean? A few of the people that I'm really close with and one in particular lives really far away. So if I get to see her twice a year, like that's amazing. But we talk all the time and lately
00:19:44
Speaker
things have been really busy and just one thing after another. So I actually haven't had like a proper catch up with her in a couple of weeks, which is a really long time for us. And it feels like in the same way that we say like, Oh, we need a date night, like with our spouse, because we need to like check in and make sure things are good. Like I, I feel that internally, like I need to
00:20:08
Speaker
make time and reach out and catch up. So I have like these little friendship clocks, which I think is strange, but maybe it's because I really care about the friends I have now and I don't want it to slip away. I think a lot of people come to recognize that as they get older, more mature, that friendships are really important.
Unique Importance of Friendships
00:20:29
Speaker
And I do think there's a way where there's this ambivalence around friendship is kind of like friendships are super important. But I think because people can feel so vulnerable in friendships that we may be dismissive and kind of say, oh, not a big deal. But I think the truth of the matter is for a lot of people.
00:20:44
Speaker
Friendships are very important and in some ways they're more important than other relationships. These close lifelong friends in particular can be with you in ways that romantic partners may not be. And of course it's kind of like, well, you're supposed to have your own life, you know, outside of your romantic relationships.
00:21:06
Speaker
But a lifelong friend who's known you from a young age is also really important, I think, psychologically because you see yourself through their eyes over the years and you have a sense of who you are and were, and a good friend can be very therapeutic, not in the professional sense, but before there was a profession of therapy,
00:21:28
Speaker
you know, where would people look for, you know, advice?
Friendships Reflecting Personal Growth
00:21:31
Speaker
And I've had some friends actually were, you know, we're not really close anymore. But there was a time after residency training, he was like, what you're doing professionally, you know, the 110 120 hour weeks and, and the way people were, he basically told me it was messing my personality up. He said, he said it in a more colloquial way. He said, you're turning into, you know, an a-hole.
00:21:56
Speaker
And I was like, I knew it was affecting me, but I didn't know it was coming out with these friends, you know, because we would hang out, it seemed fine to me. And I totally took it in. It wasn't the reason that I stopped doing it, it was already kind of on my mind. But I was like, yeah, this isn't really good for me. But that's a good friend who will tell you. I know, but you're bringing up something I think that's really important, which is like what is,
Moral Obligations in Friendships
00:22:25
Speaker
our sort of obligation to friends to tell them when we think something's not right. I mean, are you willing to put the friendship on the line if you care about someone?
00:22:37
Speaker
because you could have been like, fuck you, I'm a surgeon, this is great. And how, how come you're so unsupportive? But instead, you know, you took it the right way and maybe it's because of how it was delivered or he mentioned something that you already knew. It was very supportive and it was framed kind of in a homey setting, you know, kind. Yeah. Yeah. I think that sometimes we can
00:23:01
Speaker
not agree with or not like a friend's chosen partner, profession, drug or alcohol habits. There are things. Yeah, sometimes if you care about someone on the subject of drug and alcohol use, people will pull away because they care. But I think a lot of times people will avoid the tougher issues with friends because they don't want to cause trouble. Right, whereas I think
00:23:31
Speaker
if you care about someone, it's always worth having that conversation and to say, I know that I do that to you a lot, like, what's happening here? What's going on?
00:23:41
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, friendships probably vary. You know, there's a whole thing with guys being friends with guys and guys being friends with women and women being friends with women. It's a little different when I hear how you interact with your friends. You know, as a guy, it's a little different. I can be, you know, pretty vulnerable and emotional. And I have friends with whom I'm more like that for sure.
The 'Friend Zone' and Boundaries
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah, and then I have guy friends who are more like typical guys and we definitely don't talk about the emotional that emotional stuff in the same way But also like sometimes it's like too much like you don't want someone to try to talk to you about you know Like heavy emotional stuff all the time. Sometimes it kind of is it is what it is, you know
00:24:21
Speaker
But then with people who, you know, that first definition of friendship is like there's, you know, it's not a sexual relationship, it's not a family relationship. There was another research I was looking at on the friend zone. And that's a whole thing too, like getting friend zoned, which that wasn't one of the types of friendship, you know. And people will debate, you know, whether people who have an attraction can actually be friends. Right. Well, I think they can. I think it's a matter of
00:24:51
Speaker
feeling comfortable with certain boundaries, right? And I don't, I guess maybe that's like a topic for another day, but this idea that, you know, having a conversation with a friend, it's like too hard or it's deep emotional work, right? We do a lot of things to show up or not worth it, right? To me,
00:25:13
Speaker
People can always make more friends. No, but you can't really, right? And I think people put so much effort into making something work out when they've gone on three dates with this random person. And I look at it like finding a partner or navigating dating in a sense, like that's either going to work out or it's not. It's not about how you text. It's not about these little nuance things.
00:25:42
Speaker
I think that sometimes we hope that someone is available for something or not, right? But people have a lot of trouble letting that unfold organically.
Expectations in Friendships
00:25:53
Speaker
There's a lot of like,
00:25:55
Speaker
analyzing and obsessing that happens, but then when it comes to a friend either requesting plans or a conversation or whatever it is, it's like they don't want to put the effort there. But yeah, maybe you've known this person for a long time. They should mean a lot to you.
00:26:13
Speaker
Well, you get into this thing sometimes, it's like, okay, why do people stop being friends? It's like, you know, you're really intense, right, about friendship. And there's like a fit issue with friends, like some people who want to be friends, they just don't want an intense friendship. And probably people in our profession have a higher tolerance for kind of emotional intensity. But I think, I think with a lot of people, one of the reasons they pull back from friendships is because it's like, quote unquote, too much.
00:26:42
Speaker
Maybe I think that this has a lot to do and we can get to pretty soon to ways that people and friendships, but it's also about expectations.
Conflicts Arising from Expectations
00:26:53
Speaker
Is it too much to ask someone to come to like your birthday dinner or to fly to a destination, bachelor, bachelorette or wedding?
00:27:04
Speaker
But is it like will people be injured? I think that's the flip side of what you're saying. You know, if you have a friend and you couldn't make it to their wedding because there was just something you couldn't get out of, are they going to understand or are they going to be, you know, your
00:27:17
Speaker
You killed part of our friendship. I remember I had a close friend. We were really, really close in high school. And, you know, he moved out of state and I went to med school and he went into his own work. You know, we stayed in touch, but I guess we drifted apart or maybe it was part of my surgical training. Maybe I was getting toxic and I don't remember, but he didn't invite me. He didn't even invite me to his wedding. Wow.
00:27:45
Speaker
And I don't, I don't think I missed the invite. And you know, in, in my mind, that was, that was kind of like no coming back from that. Right. But did you ever talk to him about it?
00:27:56
Speaker
We brought it up a little bit, but it was one of those things where it just, it wasn't happening, right? Sometimes you can't have the conversation with people. They don't want to have it. You can't force people to talk about it. But you can't say I was really hurt about that. You can, but it doesn't go anywhere. The person is just like, you know, you can't force someone to be friends with you.
00:28:21
Speaker
I don't know if you know that. But sometimes if people don't want to be friends, they also don't want to talk about it. And you have to respect that boundary.
Closure in Ending Friendships
00:28:29
Speaker
So yeah, I don't remember. I might have reached out. But the guy was getting married, too. I wasn't going to be all causing some kind of problematic emotional interaction, at least with that particular friendship.
00:28:42
Speaker
The fact that he didn't invite me to his wedding was sufficient conversation about it. I don't know. I feel like like I said, the person is getting married. What are you going to do? I call them up and like make their life miserable and it will probably just prove to them like why they ended the friendship. So I think sometimes it's better just to give people space. It's not always good to talk about it or maybe the timing of the talking about it is something to consider. Maybe. But I also think that people
00:29:11
Speaker
You know, there's that thing with couples, with romantic couples, like the five love languages. And I think there's the same kind of thing with friendships. It's like, you know, some people, it's like, did you remember? And, you know, did you say thank you or did you invite me to that thing? Other people, like the friendship isn't necessarily about those types of things. And like we said at the beginning, it's not that well understood.
Limited Research on Friendships
00:29:32
Speaker
It hasn't been as researched and there are friendship coaches.
00:29:37
Speaker
But the literature on friendship is not as rich by any stretch of the imagination on romantic relationships, family, or individual psychology, right? Or business psychology for that matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Whereas I think it should be. There's a great book on friendship called Lord of the Flies. I have a running joke about friends too. And Dr. Frankenstein, you know, he wasn't very good at making friends.
00:30:07
Speaker
Oh, very funny,
Methods for Ending Friendships
00:30:09
Speaker
very funny. Okay, so let's get to your article and the ways that people end friendships that aren't working for them. But I'm gonna urge people before basing someone out of their lives to think hard about it because I don't think people should be disposed of like without a conversation. That's my opinion.
00:30:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that that is sometimes the right thing to do is to push for the conversation. Though I think you and I might differ on when it's perhaps a good idea to kind of just leave it alone because you kind of know it's not going to go anywhere anyway.
00:30:52
Speaker
But if you want to err on the side of being loyal and you want to make yourself feel good that you're trying to do the right thing so that you don't feel guilt later, if you don't want to have regrets that you didn't try, then of course, that person is going to want to try to have the conversation rather than just sort of disappear. Yeah.
00:31:11
Speaker
something else to preface about this research and ending friendships is that they didn't look at the reasons why people end friendships. This is not about that. This is like presuming that the friendship is being ended already. And so there's kind of two general ends of the spectrum, ripping off the band-aid versus a slow burn, immediate versus gradual.
00:31:34
Speaker
So one of them is stop spending time with him or her, you know, stop calling, cutting them out of plans, avoiding seeking them out. So this one aspect of stopping spending time was just dialing down the level of intimacy. So making it more superficial. And then people should get the message, right? Or they'll be like, how come you don't open up to me anymore? It's like, I don't want to open up with you. So I'm not going to answer that question either. What happened? It's like, could you please leave me alone?
00:32:01
Speaker
have a talk, right, telling them honestly why stating they wanted to end the friendship, having a civilized conversation, sharing concerns about the reasons the friendship is ending, telling them you're not happy.
00:32:14
Speaker
Another one was making the communication more formal, replying to messages only in a formal tone, contacting only on special occasions, becoming colder.
Thoughtfulness in Ending Friendships
00:32:24
Speaker
This might be related to something they also talked about compartmentalizing, like shifting the friendship from a general friendship to a situational friendship. Talking badly to the former friend, so being a jerk to them, or being a jerk to
00:32:39
Speaker
to other people about them, like badmouthing them to other people with the assumption they'll get around. You know, that might be a way to end a friendship that you don't think is very cool. Yeah, I think that's no matter what that person did to you. I don't know. Like you might not technically agree with that. Yeah, that might offend you. It might offend your sense of morality. It does a little bit. Yeah, I'm kind of offended.
00:33:05
Speaker
And then there's making excuses to avoid them, like kind of slowly distancing oneself indirectly. And then finally just ghosting, disappearing without explanation, cutting off contact, cutting off every line of communication, avoiding the person directly and showing indifference when you see them.
00:33:23
Speaker
I think what I want to say about all of this is that person is going to be out of your life, right? One way or another when we end a friendship. But I think we have to be able to live with ourselves because that person's no longer there. So it's just like ourselves and our behavior. And so we're dealing with other people's feelings, even if we think they've done something really fucked up. But
00:33:52
Speaker
At the end of the day, we really just have to be okay with how we handle something. We're not going to go back and rehash, probably not going to go back and apologize, but I do think that giving it some thought up front may help us be less likely to mishandle things in the moment.
00:34:14
Speaker
Do you think it's ever okay to just disappear or indirectly back away from a friendship? Or do you think no matter what, you should always try to talk to someone if you've decided that it's not good to be friends anymore?
00:34:27
Speaker
Right. What I always say is that people have to do what's right for them. And if what's right for them is that they just need to back away because they can't face this other person because this other person has been aggressive or hostile or manipulative, then I get it. But I think we should do our best to handle it in a way that we can live with long-term.
Moving Forward from Lost Friendships
00:34:52
Speaker
Those types of things stick with us as evidenced by your story and mine. It's not like you just forget about it in the same way. Well, I don't I don't feel like I carry a wound about that. I think I've come to terms with it. And when I was younger, things like that used to bother me more. But I think nowadays I think I have a better attitude about it. It doesn't always work out. And I have close friends and I have friends, friendships that have fallen by the wayside. And, you know, like I'm kind of I think I'm kind of chill about it.
00:35:22
Speaker
Right. Sounds like you're more chill than I am about it. I mean, definitely those interactions, I kind of feel it's sad and, you know, maybe it'd be interesting to understand what happened. But, you know, I know that people can be connected and people move on and that's okay. Yeah.
00:35:40
Speaker
Plus I'm, you know, I'm not like a teenager anymore. So, you know, I process my emotions differently. No, no offense to teenagers. I was, I was, I was very much a teenager for many years. Yeah. That's a hard time. It was kind of the drama, right? I think sometimes that's one of the reasons people do end friendships is it's just too much drama, right? They're kind of like, so nice being friends with this person, but it's just a little too much. Yeah. Yeah. Are you breaking up with me?
00:36:09
Speaker
Well, I think if we stick with the podcast and professional interaction, I think that is, you know, I don't have that much time anyway. I really don't, I don't, I don't see my, I don't see my non-work friends that much, you know, really, um, it's actually quite rare. I'm glad we had this conversation.
Connect with the Podcast Team
00:36:29
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So thank you for listening today. We're on Instagram at doorknob comments. We have a website, doorknobcomments.com and feel free to reach out. We would love a rating and review and to hear your thoughts on this kind of stuff.
00:36:50
Speaker
Totally, yes. Okay. And yeah, let us know if there's any other things you wanted to hear about. Yeah, any topic. For sure. Okay. Thanks for listening. All right. Thanks. Remember, the Doorknob Comments podcast is not medical advice. If you may be in need of professional assistance, please seek consultation without delay.