Transcript
Speaker: Hi guys.
Speaker: I'm really excited about today's conversation.
Speaker: I think it will be a massive help to all of us moms.
Speaker: Joining me to talk about navigating loss and grief with children of all ages is a lovely Erin Whitney.
Speaker: Erin has an MA in counseling and is a licensed professional counselor who's been practicing for over 25 years in Texas and Colorado.
Speaker: She runs Greatness Connection LLC and specializes in child anxiety and depression.
Speaker: She's an advanced trainer in the Nurtured Heart approach, which I can tell you firsthand is a powerful, gentle, and effective approach to counseling children.
Speaker: Erin is wonderful and wise and has helped support our family through highs and lows.
Speaker: I trust her implicitly.
Speaker: This is going to be so helpful, so let's jump right in.
Speaker: Thank you so much for being here for this important conversation, Erin.
Speaker: I am, I'm thankful for your gentle way with children and for your willingness to share with us.
Speaker: You've been really helpful in our lives, navigating some hard times with our children.
Speaker: And so I trust you.
Speaker: And I know that, uh,
Speaker: People that are listening will really appreciate your guidance on this.
Speaker: Well, thank you, Jamie.
Speaker: It's really a pleasure to be here with you today.
Speaker: I'm thinking about parents like me who want to support their children in the healthiest, best way possible.
Speaker: I also think about how this can go wrong in these challenging times.
Speaker: I wonder if there might be a tendency to try to shelter our children from pain or be so taken by our own emotions that we don't see the profound effect of
Speaker: that loss is having on our children.
Speaker: And so I think that this conversation is just so important to remember how impressionable they are and how they have their own feelings in all of this that do need to be acknowledged and
Speaker: and worked through.
Speaker: Absolutely, Jamie.
Speaker: And you know, when we're in the middle of our own set of feelings, it takes some extra effort to move out and think about the emotions that our kids are having as well.
Speaker: Before we dive in deeply into all of that, do you mind just defining grief and anticipatory grief for us and maybe going over different causes of grief, including the loss of a loved one?
Speaker: Sure, Jamie, I'd be happy to do that.
Speaker: So a lot of times people think of grief as just having to do with death.
Speaker: And I want to notice that grief really has a much broader definition than that.
Speaker: Of course, it includes the feelings, the emotions, the reactions that we have in relation to a loved one who has passed.
Speaker: It also includes any important loss.
Speaker: It's not just death.
Speaker: Of course, pet loss is very emotional for all of us.
Speaker: like divorce.
Speaker: That's a loss.
Speaker: It's a loss of the parents being together.
Speaker: It's a loss of being able to be with both parents at the same time.
Speaker: Oftentimes, it's a loss of the home.
Speaker: Sometimes, a loss of school situation.
Speaker: So, there are a lot of losses that can come with divorce.
Speaker: or something like moving or having a friend move, that also falls into the category of loss and grieving.
Speaker: When a young adult goes away to college, there's a grief on both sides, usually more so for the parent, depending on how the young adult is feeling about it.
Speaker: But that's a big loss.
Speaker: And then something like a major illness or an injury can also
Speaker: say, health or loss of an activity that a person really loves to do because of this illness or injury.
Speaker: We often don't think of those types of things as losses, but they really are.
Speaker: And people go into a grieving process about them.
Speaker: And I also want to talk about losses that seem tiny to adults, but sometimes there can be a loss of something that we as parents don't realize had a great meaning for a child.
Speaker: If you think about an object like an heirloom that you have today,
Speaker: It's just an object, right?
Speaker: And if we were to lose that, the loss means more than just the loss of the object.
Speaker: It means the connection with that person or the family that that heirloom came from.
Speaker: And there can be things like this that we don't even know a child has attached a meaning to in their mind.
Speaker: And so when there's a loss, it can seem like, oh, what's the big deal?
Speaker: particular client where the loss of a tree just created this huge grief process and we were trying to understand this you know the the dad cut down the tree not realizing that it was going to be an issue and the child went into grief and then we realized later that this child had placed the meaning of a mother that was not there into the tree oh my goodness
Speaker: Yeah, so the loss of the tree became like the loss of the mother.
Speaker: So when we see a grief process happening, even if it's something that seems unimportant to us, it's really important to find out what's the meaning for that child of that particular item.
Speaker: That is so helpful.
Speaker: I really appreciate you sharing that.
Speaker: That is something that I think people can really learn from because for me, grief is associated with death.
Speaker: And I think about loss, but not grief associated with, like you said, losing something that is...
Speaker: maybe we see a small or thinking about what you just said, if someone breaks a bone and they can't play basketball anymore and they love basketball, that yeah, there could be some grief associated with that.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And I think if we can put the name grief to those things, then we can help have a roadmap to help the person move through that and get to a different space with it.
Speaker: And then like you said, there's also anticipatory grief.
Speaker: When you have someone in the family, say, who has a terminal illness and everybody knows about it and they know that it's coming and they don't know exactly when maybe, but they have some idea, there's a start of the grieving process before the loss actually happens.
Speaker: In most cases, in many cases, at least
Speaker: And I think that it's important and helpful to not gloss over that.
Speaker: When we see that there's already sadness coming in, to have a conversation about that and to say, hey, you know, yes, this is starting to feel sad already.
Speaker: And I think that there are some things that can be done in order to help the process be a positive piece rather than just a negative spiral downward until the person dies.
Speaker: And those things would be something on the order of, you know, noticing nature.
Speaker: and how there's a cycle to it.
Speaker: And to notice how this is part of the regular process of being a human, of being part of nature, and to have it be kind of a community type of feel where I am not alone in this feeling I'm having, but this is something that's universal and that we all are feeling.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And in addition to that, then also while the person is still alive, to really have that conversation with them, if you're starting to see signs that they're grieving, to have a conversation with them about what is important for you to tell this person.
Speaker: What's important for you to make sure they know?
Speaker: before they leave this earth.
Speaker: And what's important for you to do, wish them for them before they leave.
Speaker: So that a person has a sense of agency, of there's something that I can do that somehow helps.
Speaker: And so those are good conversations to have.
Speaker: And then the last part of that, and one of the most important is to say,
Speaker: Yeah, that's so beautiful.
Speaker: And really great advice, not just for the child, but for the adult in the situation as well, right?
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: To take advantage of that time that you do still have, even though it is sad, and there is sadness lingering, right, to allow both.
Speaker: Indeed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you for that.
Speaker: You're welcome.
Speaker: I'm thinking of the words, no regrets.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You know, you want to have, you know, there's no regrets.
Speaker: We did everything that we could and we had so much fun and we enjoyed everything that we had the opportunity to.
Speaker: And when that day comes where they're no longer there, you can say, I have no regrets.
Speaker: No, as we're thinking about death specifically and grieving, I know a big question is, at what age do we talk to our children about death and grieving?
Speaker: You mentioned that maybe before five years old, that they may be too young to understand all of it, but I would love to hear more.
Speaker: what you think about talking to your kids about two different situations.
Speaker: One, I would think of someone that they're not super close to, maybe someone that they see, but not on a regular basis that's in their life.
Speaker: I'm thinking about whenever...
Speaker: My daughter was three years old and my husband's uncle, who he was very close to, passed away.
Speaker: We were very sad.
Speaker: And I think it was the first time that Clara saw Waylon cry and be that sad.
Speaker: And she was sad just...
Speaker: feeling our sadness, right?
Speaker: She was hugging us and had some tears too, like what is happening?
Speaker: And so I don't know if I handled the situation right or not.
Speaker: But we did let her know that this person had passed away, even though I'm not sure she could fully understand that.
Speaker: What I'm getting to is one piece of this is at what age do we talk about someone they're not super close to?
Speaker: And then what about someone that they are?
Speaker: What about...
Speaker: A grandparent that they've spent a ton of time with or, you know, God forbid, a parent that has a terminal illness.
Speaker: I would love to hear what you think about that.
Speaker: Thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker: I think that it's something that a lot of people struggle with is how much do I say to my child?
Speaker: When do I talk to them about it?
Speaker: And let's talk first of all about a person who's not as close, like an aunt or an uncle, maybe that they haven't seen very much.
Speaker: I think that when there's that passing in the family,
Speaker: It's a good time if the child wasn't that close to the person to model for them what does good grief look like?
Speaker: What does managing through the grief process in an appropriate way look like?
Speaker: And so I think it's important not to ignore it, but to do like you did, which was to say this is what has happened.
Speaker: And then...
Speaker: to talk about that tears are normal and emotions are normal and what those emotions are, I'm feeling sadness or I might even be feeling anger.
Speaker: And that's just really a normal thing for human beings.
Speaker: And how much you say is somewhat age dependent and somewhat dependent on the child himself.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: From the ages two to four, they don't really have a good understanding of what this means, anything like that.
Speaker: And they aren't likely to be affected by it if it's a less close person, except in how it's affecting the parents or the people they're close to, their caretakers.
Speaker: And so the way that they are going to feel that grief is how the relationship with the caretakers is going.
Speaker: And if they feel that it's worrisome, then that could be something that caught
Speaker: of some anxiety.
Speaker: And so it's really important to go ahead and show your grief, maybe not in its hugest form in front of the child, but to have tears and to talk about it and, you know, in age-appropriate language.
Speaker: Mommy's really sad today because somebody that she knows isn't coming back.
Speaker: Something like that, that's just general overall and not in such a big way that it feels scary to the child that the parent is overwhelmed.
Speaker: And so you might want to take your overwhelmed grief to another space for the very young child and show some of it in front of the child, but not to gloss over it.
Speaker: Yeah, that's so helpful.
Speaker: And so as you go up in age, there are different pieces to it.
Speaker: Let's kind of move forward what those pieces would be for the close relationship.
Speaker: Because I think what I've said for the two to four year old kind of applies for the other ages, except to answer questions.
Speaker: that the child might have as they ask a question, then answer.
Speaker: You don't want to give too much information and overwhelm the child, but if they're asking
Speaker: whatever you feel is appropriate for them to hear at that age.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: That is great advice.
Speaker: And so if we go to a close relationship, the two to four-year-old is going to mainly feel the loss of that person as like an abandonment.
Speaker: Obviously not an intentional abandonment, usually, hopefully.
Speaker: And it'll be pretty short-lived until somebody else takes over that role and they get acclimated to somebody else being in that role for them.
Speaker: And then they're likely to move back into being able to manage their emotions better and go into regular, normal stages of development.
Speaker: before that while they're adjusting you might see some eating disorders you might see some sleeping disorders you might see some bed wetting i wouldn't worry too much about that but to just get them back into a routine and say okay if those don't resolve themselves then go to see somebody about it but assuming that they probably will resolve as the child gets in to a new routine okay and so then if you
Speaker: At this stage of development, the child does see themselves as separate from the caregiver.
Speaker: Before that, they don't.
Speaker: And so they kind of have a magical thinking of, well, they'll come back.
Speaker: You know, something that is unrealistic, but that they don't understand enough to know that that's not really realistic.
Speaker: And so sometimes they can have feelings of responsibility for the death, especially at that age, four to seven of, oh, gee, I must have done something or maybe I can do something to bring them back.
Speaker: And so it's, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So you have to kind of watch for guilt feelings, feelings of taking too much responsibility, and to really actually try and head that off by letting them know in no uncertain terms, this had to do with this thing happening, and it doesn't have anything to do with you.
Speaker: It's not your fault.
Speaker: It's a good thing to say over and over for a while until they know.
Speaker: that that is something that children experience.
Speaker: And that is so sad.
Speaker: And so helpful to let them know, like you said before, it can root in there.
Speaker: Like, no, this is not about you in any way.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that can head off a lot of problems that could come out of this if it's not, you know, unhooked from the desk.
Speaker: And if part of that, you might see some regression, that's pretty normal.
Speaker: So again, not to worry about it.
Speaker: They might go back to sucking their thumb.
Speaker: They might go back to needing a story at night if they weren't now anymore.
Speaker: And you might also see some anger or some violent behavior or aggressive play come out.
Speaker: And that's a processing of the emotions that have to do with this.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so it's good to just let them run their course.
Speaker: If they don't run their course in maybe three to six months, then you might want to talk to somebody about it and see if they're moving through the grief process well.
Speaker: Do you talk to them about that?
Speaker: Like, do you say, I notice that you're upset or I notice some anger coming up and that's okay.
Speaker: We're grieving and these feelings are normal.
Speaker: Do you acknowledge it in that way?
Speaker: I think that's a great way to acknowledge it is to just call it out what you think it is.
Speaker: You might even use an I'm wondering if word.
Speaker: To say, you seem to be pretty angry lately.
Speaker: I'm wondering if you might be angry about a few things.
Speaker: One of them might be the fact that your parents, grandparents, whoever isn't here anymore.
Speaker: And then to use that sort of as a jumping off point.
Speaker: you see that they're having violent play, like maybe you've got a little child who is, you know, using their toys to hit each other, you know, or something like that, that you can jump in and say, oh, you know, that one might be mad about something.
Speaker: I wonder what they might
Speaker: be mad about and just sort of jump into the play and help them process the emotions through the characters of the play because it makes it less personal and easier for them to deal with outside of themselves at least to begin with and then it can be brought into oh you might be feeling the same way but we all have
Speaker: kind of shy away from this a lot of times in our society of feeling these emotions.
Speaker: So if we can take it away from the child and just have it be in their play for a little bit, that can help them to move through it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, that's really great.
Speaker: And then if I could continue to go to ages 7 to about 11, 11 or 12, depending on the child, they start to move away from that magical thing.
Speaker: more concrete view of the world.
Speaker: And since they are now at the age where they can start to understand the permanence of death, it might feel pretty scary to this age group.
Speaker: And so sometimes it can even go into feeling like a punishment for something.
Speaker: uh gee could i do this and that's what caused this so it's another piece of you know feeling some responsibility for it but in a different way because they found that this happened to someone else they also might have a fear of wow could i get hurt might i die you know what's there the there's the ability to start to think about those things so um
Speaker: They might want to see death as reversible and something that couldn't happen to them, but they are starting to be in the space where they realize that it's pretty final.
Speaker: It sounds like it would be appropriate to say the same thing to them.
Speaker: I just want to make sure that you know that you are not responsible for this in any way.
Speaker: If there's any sort of feeling of guilt coming up for you, I want you to know that
Speaker: this happened because of this and there is nothing that you could have done differently to change that.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: I think that's a beautiful way to say it the way you just did.
Speaker: And I think it is important.
Speaker: It's also important to make sure that you answer their questions because since they're in more of a concrete space, they often need to have some detail
Speaker: about what is this dust thing and how does it work and what do we know about it?
Speaker: Obviously, as humans, we can't necessarily answer all of their questions like what happens afterwards, right?
Speaker: There are a lot of people who...
Speaker: either have had experiences about it or have belief systems about it, and you have to decide what is it that you want to impart to your child about the answers to those questions.
Speaker: One other piece that's really important here is that at this age, a lot of times they'll have a curiosity about
Speaker: how are my parents or other people in the family or other people affected, how are they moving through this grief process?
Speaker: And they can use that as a way to better understand their own grief.
Speaker: So again, it's really important for the parents to be able to show a healthy grieving process as well in this stage.
Speaker: And it seems like...
Speaker: no matter what your beliefs are, whether you have a religious belief or not, that there is something universal about just the grieving process that you can speak to.
Speaker: Again, saying, we all have big feelings that are coming from this and they may look different.
Speaker: It may be, you know, it may be sadness.
Speaker: It may be anger.
Speaker: Is it appropriate to kind of head that off as well to acknowledge and to let them know that
Speaker: you expect that feelings will likely arise for them.
Speaker: I think that's a very healthy conversation to have to say that this is just normal.
Speaker: And a lot of times I find in working with people who are grieving that it's really useful to go through with people the stages of grief and to ask, where do you think you are in this process?
Speaker: What that does is it sort of helps a person
Speaker: put a container around grief would feel too big to handle.
Speaker: Grief can feel so big that I just don't even know what to
Speaker: And so if you can put a container around it by saying, we've got these stages, denial, anger, bargaining, badness, acceptance, and to help them see that they are in a normal process that helps a person feel like, okay, this really strange, uncomfortable, very deep feeling that I'm having is
Speaker: It's not that I'm going crazy.
Speaker: It's not that there's something wrong with me.
Speaker: This is part of a process and I'm going through it like other people do.
Speaker: So it kind of helps a person feel more normal in a process that feels pretty abnormal and outside of the usual day-to-day process.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's really powerful for, again, the child and the adult and then to have the conversation together, you know, to maybe both take the time to identify where they are so that, again, it's a shared experience and it's a process that everybody goes through.
Speaker: I love that you say, do that together, because a person can feel really isolated in this unless you come together in community.
Speaker: And I think that that's a really important aspect of grieving is to add some way to connect with one another through the process.
Speaker: So thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So at this stage, ages 11 to 18, you
Speaker: children start to be able to think in a more abstract way so they can think about things like God and the universe and nature and science and all kinds of things that they just couldn't think fully about before.
Speaker: And so it brings up
Speaker: it brings up a lot of questions that are really deep existential questions for all of us as humans that sometimes there's, you know, a lot of times there's just no easy answer for, and it's kind of a lifelong process to answer those.
Speaker: And so it can feel really confusing.
Speaker: Sometimes that
Speaker: pushes the child or the teen into denial, which can become depression.
Speaker: And so it's often hard for kids of this age or teens of this age to talk with family members.
Speaker: So they might want to talk with peers.
Speaker: They might need to talk with a counselor, might want to talk with a member of the clergy or an aunt or an uncle, somebody who's not quite so close.
Speaker: And to allow them to do that, I think is really helpful.
Speaker: And to also be open to saying, you know, I'm here to talk about this with you also.
Speaker: The more, again, that the parent
Speaker: is modeling, talking about the person who has passed and saying, gee, I'm really missing this person at this time because we're doing this activity that we used to do together or something like that.
Speaker: And to allow some tears to flow and say, wow, I'm just really feeling sad about this today.
Speaker: Or to have another moment to say, you know, I'm really...
Speaker: smiling today thinking about your loved one that has passed and the things that we used to do together and how much fun it was and to just keep sharing those things so that the teenager knows that it's okay to talk about it if they're having those feelings and so that they might have the courage to go ahead and speak up a little bit about it and
Speaker: If you feel like there's any concern about how they are processing through the grief, again, I do suggest that you just have them check in with a counselor to see how they're doing with processing their grief.
Speaker: I think you had mentioned that there can be feelings of wanting to join the deceased or thoughts about suicide and that that is normal.
Speaker: So I think that's something important to point out.
Speaker: But I think, like you mentioned, there might be some warning signs that this has gone beyond the norm and may need attention.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Do you want to speak to that a little bit?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's important to kind of know some of those and watch out for them.
Speaker: And it's all over the internet.
Speaker: You can look for suicide warning signs.
Speaker: But just to speak to some that you might specifically see within this set, one of the things that happens is a person who is having a lot of angst and a lot of emotions and is feeling down, if they've decided to...
Speaker: die by suicide, feels buoyed up, unlifted of, oh, okay, I'm going to be relieved of this burden.
Speaker: And so if you see a sudden
Speaker: that, that is actually a warning sign to watch for.
Speaker: And then, you know, some of the usual ones such as giving away items that, you know, are important to them, to maybe a sibling or a friend or something, saying something about, gee, I wish I could die, or making even a statement of, oh, I'm not going to be here for that next week, something like that.
Speaker: do take those seriously.
Speaker: A wish to die is very normal as part of the depression process, but a plan to die is different.
Speaker: And so one of the things that people worry about is, oh gosh, if they said something about dying or not being here next week and I'm worried about it, if I ask them to
Speaker: Whether or not they're having suicidal thoughts, will that make it more likely that they have those or that they do commit suicide?
Speaker: And the answer to that question is no, it will not make it more likely.
Speaker: Actually, it will make it less likely because oftentimes if you
Speaker: self or killing yourself, oftentimes people will answer you directly and accurately about that.
Speaker: And so it's better to know that than to not have asked.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And a lot of people are just worried about asking that question, but I would say go ahead and ask if you're concerned about it.
Speaker: If you get an answer that's ambivalent or
Speaker: yes, I've been thinking about it, then definitely got them to see a mental health counselor right away.
Speaker: And it's a good idea to keep someone with them all the time until they get there, just to make sure.
Speaker: A couple of other things that can be done is to just look around the house and make sure there isn't anything that's easily accessible that they could use in order to hurt or kill themselves.
Speaker: One of the things about suicide is that it is an impulsive act.
Speaker: And so if there isn't anything easily available, it's a lot harder for them to follow through on it.
Speaker: And I guess the last thing that I would say about that is that if you get a sense that there is a plan, especially a plan with a timeframe,
Speaker: room and just have them evaluated.
Speaker: Or if you are already in contact with a mental health professional, contact them right away and get their recommendation.
Speaker: Since thoughts of suicide are
Speaker: a very close loved one, thoughts of suicide are not necessarily meaning that they're going to follow through with it.
Speaker: But a plan and a time frame means that we really need to be taking some action.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I appreciate you going over that with us.
Speaker: It's terrifying and it's really hard to hear and even think about, but it's so important.
Speaker: And it's not something that I...
Speaker: knew until you brought that up to me.
Speaker: So I think just knowing that and being aware of it and being able to ask the question, I mean, these are all such important things.
Speaker: So thank you.
Speaker: You're welcome.
Speaker: And I think it's important for people to know that if possible at this time so that we can make sure that there isn't another tragedy in the family.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: So on the age of 11 to 18, I think we touched on communication, just like you really would with even younger ages, being open to them, grieving any way that feels right to them and letting them know there's not a normal way, that their way is okay as long as it is healthy.
Speaker: Is there anything else that you would like to touch on?
Speaker: before we move into the, the tease.
Speaker: I think the only other thing that I might say is to, if your child or teen isn't talking to you about it, maybe to just ask, are you talking with your friends about this?
Speaker: And just making sure that there's some, some way that they're able to communicate and work through the feelings that they're having.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker: Let's move into the five T's for grief.
Speaker: So I created these for this podcast.
Speaker: I didn't realize that they were all T's until I wrote them down.
Speaker: So I was like, oh, nice.
Speaker: Yeah, that works.
Speaker: You can remember them more easily.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so let me just say them what they are and then we can go through each one.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So the five T's that I find are helpful for working through grief are ears, talking,
Speaker: prediction, touch, and time.
Speaker: And so if we just start with the first one of those, ears.
Speaker: Ears are really important.
Speaker: They are a way of releasing all that emotional energy that we have.
Speaker: And as you probably know, they also release endorphins into the system to help us
Speaker: through this hard time so if we hold back and we don't show the tears we don't let them out we don't get the benefit of the endorphins that help us kind of uh get through the wave of grease and so uh if it's held in instead of coming out then it comes out in some way or it's it's
Speaker: Either by externalizing, meaning you might see anger, you might see aggression, you might see sarcasm in teenagers, you might see something where the kids are fighting more right now, getting in trouble at school maybe.
Speaker: So that's externalizing.
Speaker: We're letting it out in an external way instead of using our tears and talking about it and processing it.
Speaker: It's coming out that way.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Another possible way is internalizing where it gets...
Speaker: stuffed away in a closet inside and not processed through.
Speaker: But a lot of times that will come out as depression or it could come out in somatic symptoms like headaches, maybe start
Speaker: starting to have migraines around that time, stomach aches, could be lower immune system response, so getting sick more often.
Speaker: So internalizing can be just as devastating.
Speaker: It's harder to see, though.
Speaker: So you need to be aware that those
Speaker: a loss or around a loss, then it could be that internalizing and we need to process that out verbally.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or you could have some combination of that.
Speaker: You could have some internalizing and then explosive behavior and then some internalizing and it explodes out again.
Speaker: So just watch for what kinds of changes you're seeing in your child's emotional state or in your child's behavior.
Speaker: is processed through, then that's the time to talk with someone in a professional capacity about it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And this reminds me of other conversations we have on the podcast about the adult's grieving process and this exact same thing, right?
Speaker: It can get stuck.
Speaker: It can go, it's going to go somewhere.
Speaker: You may end up lashing out or you may get physically ill.
Speaker: And so again, working through these things together
Speaker: and making sure that you're doing the same things that you're encouraging your child to do.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And, you know, I would like to just make a mention about a societal influence in regard to boys.
Speaker: In the American society, and I don't know a lot about a lot of the other societies, but here in some families, not all families, but in some families, it's frowned upon for boys to cry.
Speaker: or to show that sort of emotion.
Speaker: And when it comes to grief, I really recommend normalizing grief
Speaker: crying, normalizing, talking about the sadness or the anger so that it doesn't become internalizing in a way that causes some problems like depression or somatic symptoms or illness or that sort of thing.
Speaker: That takes great courage on the side of the men in the family because the parent figure, especially the father figure in a boy's life,
Speaker: can either press down and say, I'm not going to cry, right?
Speaker: Right, yeah.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Or they can be really courageous and strong and show those emotions in front of the child, not to a huge degree, but to show that they have them, which gives the child permission to do it themselves.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Thank you for pointing that out.
Speaker: I think that is wonderful.
Speaker: It's so true.
Speaker: And then we have talking.
Speaker: Talking to someone about it is really important.
Speaker: You know, let's expand talking for young kids to include playing.
Speaker: Notice your children's play.
Speaker: Children often work through emotions by playing.
Speaker: If the child is playing funeral,
Speaker: then that means they're processing the emotions from that ceremony.
Speaker: Allowing that, you know, not telling them don't play like that, but to allow it and maybe even join in the play to help them process the emotions in their play story, that can help them to work through the loss.
Speaker: And if you're there with them in their story, that makes them feel like you're there with them in their grief as well.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: think that is so powerful and maybe it's societal, this wanting to kind of tuck it away.
Speaker: And so I appreciate you saying out loud because I think some of our instincts might be to say, oh, hey, you know that let's not play like that.
Speaker: We're playing fun.
Speaker: It's fun to play.
Speaker: We're going to play in this way.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so to allow that as part of the grieving process is something that I think is really a beautiful way to
Speaker: to meet them on their level and to work through it together.
Speaker: That's powerful.
Speaker: Also in regard to talking, I want to mention that there are some cultural expectations in some cultures that you don't specifically talk about death or the person for a certain time.
Speaker: And if that's the case, since expression about this is still important, it's important to
Speaker: of validating that person's emotions, like generalized discussions about the stages of grief, generalized discussions about nature and the cycles of nature and how this is all normal, or generalized discussions of encouragement that we can all get through this together and we're all moving through this on a day-to-day basis and we can
Speaker: they can get through until the point where they can then talk about the person or the situation.
Speaker: Okay, that's very helpful.
Speaker: So that brings us to prediction.
Speaker: So we had here talking and now tradition.
Speaker: So I do think that a ceremony of some sort for closure is really helpful, whether that's a celebration of life, a funeral, a relief of ashes.
Speaker: Whether it's just a lighting of a candle and recognizing the importance of this person in our life, or whether it's lighting a fire and noticing the smoke and sending a prayer to them in your own way, it can be whatever tradition works for you and your family.
Speaker: But I think it is helpful to have some sort of a ceremony foreclosure for people.
Speaker: People tend to do better if they have that.
Speaker: I would agree with that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Have you found that to be true?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: As you know, my dear friend passed away and I grieved in front of the children and they saw me cry and
Speaker: And they see me light a candle and I have some ceremony around remembering her.
Speaker: So I'll light a candle and listen to some of her favorite music and look through a photo album and they'll join me and we'll talk about memories.
Speaker: But they had not really cried with me until we went to her celebration of life.
Speaker: And there was something about that closure for them that I think really was meaningful and let them understand.
Speaker: understand a little bit more like the finality of the situation, right?
Speaker: It made it a little bit more real.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely.
Speaker: And I think it can be really helpful for kids to go to a celebration of life, something like that.
Speaker: I think it is important to take a look at the age of the child and the type of the ceremony and make sure, and also the, I guess, the constitution of the child in terms of, you know, what type of ceremony is it appropriate
Speaker: for them to go to.
Speaker: So you want to make sure that it's one that is not going to create fear in them, but one that is going to help with the release of that lice from this particular plane to help them with the letting go process.
Speaker: When a person doesn't let go is when they tend to get stuck in the grief process.
Speaker: And so that ceremony helps to let go.
Speaker: So tradition can be something that is continued over time.
Speaker: For example, I know of someone who has one particular Christmas ornament that they put on their tree each year to remember a member of the family that they want to remember.
Speaker: And they can take a moment and all kind of put that on together.
Speaker: So they can be part of the regular traditions that you have.
Speaker: The Dio de los Muertos is a great tradition that some families have that helps you to connect back in with loved ones who have passed and to kind of keep a connection.
Speaker: in that way.
Speaker: And I think that that can be a really helpful thing to just have some positive way of remembering them that becomes part of your tradition.
Speaker: whatever that might be.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's great.
Speaker: And you can get really creative with that.
Speaker: I think maybe there's a meal that you used to enjoy together that when you cook that meal, you celebrate them, or maybe it's their birthday that you have cake every year, or, you know, I feel like people, and this is something you could include the children in, like what feels good to you.
Speaker: as a way to remember this person that we love.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: I think it's great for that to be created together.
Speaker: so that it feels good for everyone.
Speaker: Great idea.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker: The fourth E is touch.
Speaker: And I don't know that there's a lot in the literature about this, but I do know that healing touch is really important to people in general.
Speaker: You know, we all really need to have touch from other people.
Speaker: And when we're hurting, we need more.
Speaker: Sometimes, you know, words just are inadequate.
Speaker: They just don't say it.
Speaker: And if you have a child who is, you know, say they're a teenager and they're not talking much, maybe just some extra hugs, maybe just some extra, you know, rubs of the back or pats on the head or whatever it is that you used to do when they were a child.
Speaker: And, you know, not where it's in front of their friends where they're going to be embarrassed about it, but, you know, something where you have extra
Speaker: touch.
Speaker: I recommend hugs, hugs, hugs, and more hugs.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: And there's something about like a time.
Speaker: I can't remember how many seconds that like releases endorphins as well.
Speaker: That if you hug someone for like 13 seconds, like a big, long, deep hug, that that can be really helpful and like shifting.
Speaker: some of the energy that's going on there.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And pets can be really helpful in this also.
Speaker: Petting a cat, petting a dog, playing with the dog, just some interaction that way also can be another way of saying, I am not alone and I am being comforted.
Speaker: comfort is what that does in my opinion.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And we have a very loving dog that can like sense.
Speaker: I feel like whenever someone's sad, cause he'll just lean into you, you know?
Speaker: Um, so I agree with you.
Speaker: There's something really soothing and comforting about having a pet snuggle up next to you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And dogs and cats can both be very intuitive like that.
Speaker: They just kind of know when you're needing an extra hug, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker: So the last T, it looks like, is time.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And, you know, it might not be what you're saying.
Speaker: So yes, time does help to heal this wound, but grief sometimes needs some time to come up to the surface if it's a really deep loss.
Speaker: For some people, it's just overwhelming, and if they let it sink in right away,
Speaker: for them.
Speaker: So sometimes it takes a little while for the grief to surface.
Speaker: So if you see someone who didn't cry at the ceremony of life, if you see someone who just really kind of seems to be very much shying away from it, some of it could be that it's just needing some time to bubble up to the surface.
Speaker: So, you know, it's indirectly
Speaker: Talk about the emotions of it.
Speaker: Maybe for a young child, you have a book.
Speaker: There's a book called A Child's Book of Hope by, let me see, Jean Monrad Thomas.
Speaker: And it's just very gentle way of discussing in general nature-based terms.
Speaker: kind of that cycle of life.
Speaker: So that's one way that you can help that to bubble up to the surface without being direct and kind of pulling it up too fast.
Speaker: It's okay, yeah, it's okay to wait for a short time for the death to
Speaker: sink in.
Speaker: If it gets past several months, I'd suggest to start to try and talk more directly about it to see if you can help them feel comfortable enough to start to talk about and to start to move into that grief process.
Speaker: So give them some time and kind of indirectly check in at the beginning because you don't want to push too hard if their natural process is taking a little while.
Speaker: But if it's been a few months, then it may be a more direct approach and a more regular check-in.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: You know, you as a parent know your child better than anyone else will.
Speaker: And so you probably know what would be too much, what would be not enough.
Speaker: And again, do feel free to check in with a mental health professional about what's going on for your particular child and see
Speaker: way to go about this and timing.
Speaker: And then there are a couple of other things about time that I want to talk about.
Speaker: Even when you're in the grief process, it's important to expect it to take time.
Speaker: The amount of time that it's going to take me to process through my grief is going to be different than when it takes you or someone else to process through the grief process.
Speaker: And our society sort of
Speaker: tries to push us through that.
Speaker: Says, well, if you're six months down the road or a year down the road and you're still thinking about this, you need to move on already.
Speaker: And I really feel like it's important that we honor our grief process, not get stuck in our grief process, but honor the process knowing that we're moving through it
Speaker: And you just expect grief to take as long as it takes because nobody else had that relationship with that person.
Speaker: Only you.
Speaker: So only you can process through the grieving of that relationship because it's very much personal.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And in all of this, there's just, there's not a cookie cutter, one size fits all.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And to say, Oh, it's been six months.
Speaker: You should be done by now.
Speaker: Just,
Speaker: It doesn't seem realistic, but I also know that it happens and that people say that for sure.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There are some griefs that a person never really gets over.
Speaker: You know, if you have someone who has taken their life by suicide, right?
Speaker: That's not something that you're going to get over.
Speaker: You're going to learn to live with it.
Speaker: And you're going to hopefully get to a process where you can learn to live well with it.
Speaker: And it's okay to say, this is something that I need to put into this space and touch on every now and again, because it's just never going to go away.
Speaker: I can manage it.
Speaker: I can handle it.
Speaker: And it's something I learned to live well with.
Speaker: And so time means a lot of different things when it comes to grief.
Speaker: But I think honoring your time is the most important piece that I see.
Speaker: It seems like for everyone that it
Speaker: if you're very close to a person, that it isn't ever going to go away.
Speaker: But shifting, like you said, from the grieving process to living well, and maybe more often than not, when you think of the person, that it's joyful and that it's fond memories as opposed to the tears.
Speaker: But
Speaker: I can imagine when you lose someone that you love deeply, that 10 years can go by and still on Christmas, you cry because you miss them so badly still.
Speaker: And I think that's okay.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: You know, I had a client who told me once, it's been 30 years since my brother died.
Speaker: And then one day I was at my office in Boston and sitting at my desk and all of a sudden it hit me.
Speaker: It's not coming back.
Speaker: And so it's like, you know, it can surface at times that you don't expect.
Speaker: And so it's okay.
Speaker: It surfaces, you process through it, and you move back into living well.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And what a beautiful conversation to have with your children and to let them know about your own experience.
Speaker: And again, just to normalize it so they know this is part of the human experience for all of us.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And, you know, I think there's another T that I didn't put in my five Ts because it doesn't happen with everybody, but that's the what for trauma.
Speaker: I mean, I think this is traumatic, period.
Speaker: I think it's just hard, right?
Speaker: It's not something that we want to have to go through.
Speaker: And I think it's important to watch for an extra traumatic response, such as...
Speaker: unexpected loss like maybe there was a maybe it was from an accident or maybe a person witnessed part of the death process through them being in the hospital for a while and seeing all that they had to go through or maybe there's some unresolved feelings between a child or a teen and the loved one and you know the last conversation they had was not a positive one or something or surviving an accident
Speaker: when somebody else did not.
Speaker: These are all things that can create sort of an extra level of trauma.
Speaker: And so those are important to make sure that you talk with a professional and get to where they have been processed through in the traumatic response having been worked through.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that is so important.
Speaker: And I will be sure to put some resources for that on the website so that people can look.
Speaker: And also the book that you mentioned earlier.
Speaker: I'll make sure to put that title on there as well.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: And I'll send over a few more for you as well.
Speaker: Okay, wonderful.
Speaker: Anything else on the trauma piece?
Speaker: I think it seems like one of those things as the parent, like you said,
Speaker: you will have this instinct to know, okay, wow, this is big and a lot and we need some extra support with this.
Speaker: Well, one of the things that we've come to learn in the last 10 years about trauma is that the more immediately you work through the trauma, the easier it is for you to stay away from something like, say, post-traumatic stress disorder or something that becomes kind of a longer-term issue.
Speaker: If it's worked through very quickly, right away, that's the optimal situation.
Speaker: So if you feel like there's some concern about a traumatic response, don't hesitate.
Speaker: Just go and talk to somebody and get an assessment.
Speaker: And a mental health counselor should be able to do an assessment for that pretty quickly in a session or two and let you know, yes, we need to be concerned about this and we do want to...
Speaker: work through this right now through maybe some therapy or something and or oh no they seem to be doing well at this point let's check in again in maybe six months okay that's really good to know especially that urgency piece that it really makes a difference the sooner you address it the better
Speaker: It really does.
Speaker: And I guess just kind of a general thought that I have that I'd like to share is that something like creating a memory book together can be a great way of having community around processing the emotions, both from the side of sadness and anger, but also from the side of, oh, wow, weren't we fortunate to have this person in our lives for the time that they were here, however long it was.
Speaker: suggest that as a family type of activity to help everybody through the process and to help everybody come together rather than be alone in their emotions and that way you have community in a positive way over whatever it was that happened.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: And then you have this wonderful memory book to go back to as part of, if you want to have, you know, an annual ceremony or something like that, that you bring the book out and you share memories together.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: I think that's very special.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: In our American culture, especially for many, death is not something that is talked about often.
Speaker: In the past, when we had multi-generational living, I think people just saw natural death more.
Speaker: And now we don't.
Speaker: And so it's something that unless you have had a pet that's passed, your only experience with death might be seeing death.
Speaker: something on TV, right?
Speaker: Which is not a realistic interpretation.
Speaker: And so what I would like to ask you about is if someone is listening that is just thinking about and preparing for loss themselves, maybe with an aging parent, is it appropriate to talk to your child about that?
Speaker: And how do you do that in a healthy way before it becomes an immediate reality?
Speaker: I think that's a really important question, Jamie, and thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker: You know, I think that touching on some pieces of the death and grieving cycle, I think that can be helpful in preparing kids for, say, when a grandparent is pregnant.
Speaker: in the process of passing or a pet that dies
Speaker: I think that if it isn't this thing that suddenly pops up out of nowhere, I think it can be really helpful.
Speaker: There was a talk that I went to once where the presenter, and I apologize that I don't have a reference on this.
Speaker: I don't recall who it was.
Speaker: But they said, if you want to introduce your children to death, get them a whole system.
Speaker: And I don't know that I'm recommending that, but the idea is that if you can notice smaller things that come and go, you notice the flowers that come in the spring and they're not there by the fall.
Speaker: You notice the squirrels that are there and then maybe they're not anymore.
Speaker: And to just
Speaker: look, this is part of our experience here on earth is that things come into our life and things leave our lives.
Speaker: And so to help them to pull into, wow, what can I experience right now with gratitude so that when it's
Speaker: have focused on it in a positive way when I know that it was some things that brought me joy.
Speaker: And so that puts a positive focus on things coming into our lives, people coming into our lives, pets coming into our lives and fulfilling our lives more and more.
Speaker: And it puts the focus on letting experience with gratitude this right now because I know based on the fact that things come and go, that this also will go.
Speaker: So let me just enjoy it now with the knowledge that I'll be okay through the grieving process.
Speaker: But the reason that a person grieves is because you have loved.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And so to join those two together and to say, I can love deeply, then I can get through the grieving process because it was worth loving that person deeply.
Speaker: That's such a lovely way to approach that.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Beautifully said.
Speaker: And I think a perfect note to wrap up on.
Speaker: So I will be sure to share some of the big takeaways.
Speaker: There were so many from this conversation today.
Speaker: Thank you, Erin.
Speaker: Really, really helpful information.
Speaker: And I just want to say thank you for being here and sharing your time with us.
Speaker: Well, and Jamie, thank you so much for having this podcast because this is a topic that I think people really need to have information about and the fact that you are creating this space to help people have a good understanding about it.
Speaker: It's so important.
Speaker: So thank you for having me and thank you so much for having the podcast.
Speaker: Yes, thank you.
